Opinions seem divided about the new Lelith Hesperax model. Why not put it to a vote!

It is missing the vote that I consider the correct answer: Both.

Neither, both are bad

Eldarsif wrote:It is missing the vote that I consider the correct answer: Both.

Both bad or both good?

Tiberias wrote:Neither, both are bad

They are very similar so I can see why you would dislike or like both.

I can't get excited by either tacticool rock, never mind the random standard elf on it.

'Generic' is the only thing that comes to mind.

I love both.

IMHO the old lelith is the best 40k model ever released along with previous Ghaz so my vote is for the classic miniature.

But the new model is awesome, far above modern GW standards, which to be honest I'm not very fond of.

I'm also happy that her size is comparable to regular drukhari infantries, as it should be, not the typical ugly centerpiece huge model that GW seems to love to release these days.

I wasn't fond of the old Lelith (which is still 'new' to me, as I started back in 3rd), but this new-new one is objectively worse.

Her hair got bigger but somehow also became less detailed. She's gotten weirdly thicc, especially for a character who's supposed to be a slim beauty. And her face feels very "hateful / angry berzerker" when she's supposed to be calm-and-collected in combat, even to the point of disdainful.

So for me, personally, neither. But I have to pick one, definitely not the newest one.

Voted for new but I will say the dark shading around the lips aren't doing the model any favours.

It just makes her look like she's sick and on the verge of collapsing.

Edit: Also the skin tone on the new model just seems weird in comparison to the old, not sure if I'm feeling it either....

Methinks this Poll could be improved a bit

1) Old Lilith (Finecast)
2) Old Lilith (Plastic)
3) New Lilith (Plastic)
4) New Lilith (Finecast)
5) Both
6) Neither

And before some intrepid Internet Warrior mentions it .... Yeah I am aware that the "Old" Lilith isn't available in Plastic. And the New one isn't available in Finecast.

Voted old.

I don’t dislike the new one, and being plastic is a major perk. Would not kick her off the paintbench.

But I prefer the pose and flow of the old sculpt.

That's a lot of hair!

Honestly I like it, but maaan that face is ugly

 Grimoir wrote:
Methinks this Poll could be improved a bit

1) Old Lilith (Finecast)
2) Old Lilith (Plastic)
3) New Lilith (Plastic)
4) New Lilith (Finecast)
5) Both
6) Neither

Except one was never in plastic and the other never in Finecrap.

For me, it's Lilith Version 2 (IOW the one on the left, she had a model before that one) in metal.

I think I prefer new Lilith, though I prefer old Lilith’s face.
And plastic is a much nicer medium to work with.

The big hair is more true to the art IMO, it was that long even in the original 3rd Ed portrait. I suspect it being so much smaller before is just a limitation of the original metal.

And both are better than original Lilith! (Though that was still a classic and one of the better models of the range).

I definitely prefer the old one, though the new one is impressive for being made from plastic.

Unfortunately old Lelith is finecast, so you would probably never get a model of the same quality as the image above if you paid for it, so for consistency the new one is gonna be better.

For those interested in her original model:

Personally i like the one above, metal and all. of the two in the op, the first one. I don;t see why they make her barefoot instead of giving her heels. As it just scatter some caltrops around and watch her 'dance".

No caltrops? legos and D4's will do just fine.

I don't understand why they felt it necessary to revamp the perfectly fine Version 2 with an almost identical Version 3 instead of doing the other Dark Eldar chars. It's not like there is a lack of them in the lore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt Swain wrote:
Personally i like the one above, metal and all. of the two in the op, the first one. I don;t see why they make her barefoot instead of giving her heels.

I like the barefoot version better. It's more evocative of gladiatorial fights.

 morganfreeman wrote:
I wasn't fond of the old Lelith (which is still 'new' to me, as I started back in 3rd), but this new-new one is objectively worse.

Her hair got bigger but somehow also became less detailed. She's gotten weirdly thicc,
.

You know why.

Blah blah unhealthy image blah blah unrealistic standard blah blah women are not barbie dolls blah blah.

Of course we never see any space marines with realistic bodies...

Both have their merits, but new one is too similar to old to make the "upgrade" necessary.
Both are decent.

She needed an upgrade to plastic like every other finecast model. Not due to being a bad sculpt.

I’d rather see them chip away at the old finecast range and re-do them in plastic then inventing new stuff or dropping it from the codex.

Considering how limited the Dark Eldar range is, why not both?

Besides the obvious answer of design team work load.

 bullyboy wrote:
Both have their merits, but new one is too similar to old to make the "upgrade" necessary.
Both are decent.

I disagree, upgrades like this are exactly what I consider necessary. Old lelith was a finecrap model, and finecrap MUST be replaced as soon as possible. And hopefully without upgrading a standard infantry model to a huge monster or a diorama. Metal models need upgraded versions as well.

It's things like any of the primaris marines that weren't completely unnecessary, SM already had a wide roster of plastic kits. Or the new necron warriors maybe as the old ones were perfectly fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:
Considering how limited the Dark Eldar range is, why not both?

Because she's a named character, you can only field one model. If she was a generic HQ like a succubus then yeah, why not both?

Voted new because I prefer plastic and because I think new one paintjob and photos are not as good as they could be.

 Blackie wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Both have their merits, but new one is too similar to old to make the "upgrade" necessary.
Both are decent.

I disagree, upgrades like this are exactly what I consider necessary. Old lelith was a finecrap model, and finecrap MUST be replaced as soon as possible. And hopefully without upgrading a standard infantry model to a huge monster or a diorama. Metal models need upgraded versions as well.

It's things like any of the primaris marines that weren't completely unnecessary, SM already had a wide roster of plastic kits. Or the new necron warriors maybe as the old ones were perfectly fine.

I don't agree with Blackie too often, but here I do.

That photo of the Finecast model is like the idealized picture of the food outside a restaurant. The chances of you getting that good-looking of a model without an exorbitant amount of work and painting trickery isn't there. The plastic one, on the other hand, is likely much, much easier to get closer to the advertised photo. Especially, if you have intermediate or less painting skills. That alone makes it worth it to me, and why I want to see all Finecast purged in holy fire.

I actually like the old one better, at least in the face. Admittedly it might just be the paint job - the old face is painted very well (IMHO)

The hair on the new one bugs me - there are some really large areas of it with no detail or "strands" of hair sculpted in which makes it not look very much like hair at all.

The new one gives eldar players two models at the cost of one, so the new one should be better.

I'll go with new Lelith, please Ohman.

That said, I'd also consider kitbashing a Succubus rather than pursue the battle set or wait for the individual release.

No doubt the new Lelith will cost £25 so it might be worth picking up the current finecast Lelith at £15, if you can.

I prefer "old". "New" is not radically different, but I prefer the former's face.

I still have a soft spot for the original metal Lelith, but the newer models ARE better.

Karol wrote:
The new one gives eldar players two models at the cost of one, so the new one should be better.

New Guardians confirmed!

Karol wrote:
The new one gives eldar players two models at the cost of one, so the new one should be better.

what?

The new one is hilariously bad, she's stocky like a dwarf and has gigantic clown feet. I know it's 40k anatomy but she just looks bizarre, the sculpt does not depict an agile gladiator at all. The old one is way better.

If the old one was still metal there was a competition, but with failcast? New one of course. Though I must admit the face of the old one looks better.

Old. In metal.
She's one of the few DE pieces I own.
Probably going to stay that way too.

 Irkjoe wrote:
The new one is hilariously bad, she's stocky like a dwarf and has gigantic clown feet. I know it's 40k anatomy but she just looks bizarre, the sculpt does not depict an agile gladiator at all. The old one is way better.

It's the way they photographed it. She's still has an Eldar-esq physique and GW haven't gone and made a mini of Abadon (as much as I would like it to be... )

I like elements of both. I love the fact that this is a sisters vs DE box. Literally made for me.

 Denegaar wrote:
Voted new because I prefer plastic and because I think new one paintjob and photos are not as good as they could be.

You're right about the paintjob and photo.

I still voted old because the new model lacks the grace I usually associate with Lelith. The 5th edition model (and art) gave her a sort of anime character feel (in a good way). I could see her moving in fast, weird ways and cutting down a dozen dudes without losing her calm, focused expression. The new model's pose reminds me of some kitbashes I've done with generic wyches (specifically the ones that come on the venom sprue). Her angry face somehow feels out of character for Lelith (try to picture that face on the the Lelith we see in Fall of Biel-Tan when Yvraine dies). I can't picture her pulling off graceful wuxia attacks. I feel like she's a brute that relies on strength over skill.

Old Lelith looks like she'd dance around your attacks and cut you ten times before you even felt it. New Lelith looks like she'd tackle you and angrily waste energy stabbing your chest over and over with her jumbo knives.

But that said, the "default" picture of the new model above is the worst one. The pictures that show the side and rear details look a lot better, and her paint job looks okay in the video with the dark background and probably some specific lighting going on.

Honestly, the new one looks like almost an exact detail for detail update of the old one, so I feel like at least for me they're the same, though not being in finecast is good.
The old face is less detailed, but I do have to say I think I definitely prefer her flat "Lilith is not amused," expression.

 Matt Swain wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
I wasn't fond of the old Lelith (which is still 'new' to me, as I started back in 3rd), but this new-new one is objectively worse.

Her hair got bigger but somehow also became less detailed. She's gotten weirdly thicc,
.

You know why.

Blah blah unhealthy image blah blah unrealistic standard blah blah women are not barbie dolls blah blah.

Of course we never see any space marines with realistic bodies...

Just gonna say, I don't see it. The new one definitely looks "bigger" than the old one. Actually, based on that picture, she looks like she's got in general "sexier" [she appears to have a much more defined waist-to-hips ratio as well as well].

Old. The pose on the new one bugs me and the hair is too big.

New. I like em thicc

Maybe it's just my view, but 5th edition Lelith didn't look at all like the rest of plastic Wyches. This one has a similar body and a similar face.

I don't like the paintjob at all, those pallid tones with darker shades always seem off to me. I paint my cults slightly darker and with less recess shade and they look way better.

I'm pretty sure the sculpt will look better than those images.

New Sculpt is VASTLY better, and the people saying otherwise are stuck with their rose tinted glasses with that awful constipation face.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
New Sculpt is VASTLY better, and the people saying otherwise are stuck with their rose tinted glasses with that awful constipation face.

There you go again, stating opinions as declarative facts...

You really should understand not everything you say is true just because you say so.

I have no particular nostalgia for the old sculpt, it is just much nicer in my opinion.
The new one is a technical marvel in plastic, no doubt. But aesthetically not as nice.

They are very similar, but I like the more robust complexion of the new one, more appropriate for someone whose entire existence is defined by being the best at killing in personal combat.

Overall, both are fairly similar. Both poses are similar enough. The hair is a bit better in the new sculpts. I much prefer the sterner face of the older model which is more in character I would say and also looks overall better. The painting job is a hell of a lot better in the older model. Overall I prefer the older one, but I miht get fooled by better picture and paint job though. All in all though both remain fairly mediocre models in my opinion, but I'm not a huge fan of dark eldar witch models.

So is it just me, or does the new (new) Lelith model look like she's spent the last 120 12 years eating pastries and turning into an old russian grandma?

The face seems off to me, but given how badly they butchered the Angelos paintjob, it might just be the paintjob.

That being said, I am slightly nostalgic for the original model.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
New Sculpt is VASTLY better, and the people saying otherwise are stuck with their rose tinted glasses with that awful constipation face.

The detail on the armor is improved, but the pose itself is just a little underwhelming. It's trying harder to be "acrobatic" while also not conveying a great sense of motion. I'm comparing it to the new Jain Zar and just not feeling it. To me, the new face just looks like she's trying too hard. The 5e face conveyed disappointment and disdain. This one makes me feel like the normally composed Lelith is losing a fight, mad about it, and getting desperate enough to abandon her normally collected composure. It makes her look less in control and less skillful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
So is it just me, or does the new (new) Lelith model look like she's spent the last 120 12 years eating pastries and turning into an old russian grandma?

The face seems off to me, but given how badly they butchered the Angelos paintjob, it might just be the paintjob.

That being said, I am slightly nostalgic for the original model.

Spoiler:

<Insert Scale Creep Joke Here>

I do think the original model is a great example of how to make the pale skin + dark armor work well together.

New one seems to have quite the arse on her. Doesn't look quite right for eldar physique.

The metal/Finecrap one. Maybe it's the angle, but she fits the image of a lithe Eldar better.

But even if the new one was better in every other way, I'd still say it's worse by virtue of being another modelling jumping off a Emperor damned ruin.

Yeah. The jumping rocks were neat when harlequins did them, but I don't want my entire army to be playing The Floor is Lava.

Tough call for me. Both have elements I like and dislike, both I feel could benefit from a smoother paint job on the face. In the end it came down to a very practical reason; the new one is plastic, the old one isn't.

Why not scan and make new molds for plastic from the old model? New one sux. Old one was... better. But there must be a half dozen better 3rd party models that are better in every way.

This one is an easy win:
https://www.ragingheroes.com/a/s/products/asharah-tgg2-ve-sf

 jeff white wrote:
Why not scan and make new molds for plastic from the old model? New one sux. Old one was... better. But there must be a half dozen better 3rd party models that are better in every way.

This one is an easy win:
https://www.ragingheroes.com/a/s/products/asharah-tgg2-ve-sf

Speak for yourself! That thing looks absolutely awful to me.

New one face it's a bit off puting i know, i keep thinking if they want to continue the Ynnari lore thrend with Lelith.

For those who don't know she's getting troubles to keep herself sated with the gladiatorial thrill and join Yvraine as a maybe permanent fix for her replenish soul practices.


Imho i still prefer the old face but i can see a brand new Harlequin member for my KT as a player posing as female Avatar of Khaine conversion.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
Why not scan and make new molds for plastic from the old model? New one sux. Old one was... better. But there must be a half dozen better 3rd party models that are better in every way.

This one is an easy win:
https://www.ragingheroes.com/a/s/products/asharah-tgg2-ve-sf

Speak for yourself! That thing looks absolutely awful to me.

Ok... of course I can only speak for myself...
For myself, I would not buy the new plastic GW lump.
I would buy the above linked model, instead.
This is also better I think... but a bit racy for me and thus maybe why I like my sisters armored:
https://www.ragingheroes.com/a/s/products/shiveryah-ve-sf

What the hell is up with that new sculpt?

It's like someone took a female sculpt of a guardsman (just as badly proportioned as the current guardsmen models), and then stuck a half-melted DE head on the top.

But don't worry, kids, after 10 years of neglect, Dark Eldar are getting a whole swathe of other new models.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Sorry, did I say 'Dark Eldar'? I of course meant 'Marines', because it's always bloody Marines. Enjoy the mouldy breadcrumb we've thrown you, Dark Eldar players, because it's the only one you'll be getting this entire edition. It's your own fault for not playing a proper army.

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks the new one is a bit too thicc or busty for a Dark Eldar. I'm more puzzled with why they decided to redo Lilith, as she's not in desperate need for a redo. Why not reintroduce one of the old characters you axed for no reason?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
Why not scan and make new molds for plastic from the old model? New one sux. Old one was... better. But there must be a half dozen better 3rd party models that are better in every way.

This one is an easy win:
https://www.ragingheroes.com/a/s/products/asharah-tgg2-ve-sf

Speak for yourself! That thing looks absolutely awful to me.

I second that opinion. The example provided here is just.. really bad.

The pose is good, but literally everything else not. Talk about over-designed armor.

I really like both of these models; I almost bought an old Lelith just in case I didn't like the new one, but based on Jain Zar and her faithfulness to the original, I figured I'd be okay.

The cool thing about her is that given that she's plastic, and that the hair meets the scalp in a topknot, any other wych face could do the trick (assuming, of course, that it isn't just a weak paint job).

The hair is over the top, but given that it actually has a weapon profile (which we haven't seen yet- it is possible that bigger hair = better weapon).

One of the things I love about the new model is the extra razorflail she's packing.

The other thing I'm curious about is the capacity for mixing Lelith bits into a wych kit. Could be a really fun box to play with, because you'll get conversion options in the same box. Imagine if Venoms get capacity of 6 in the new dex; then she gets an escort and a ride.

One more note on anger face: I don't have the books to hand, but if I remember, in previous editions, Lelith rejected combat drugs. If I'm not mistaken, 8th kicked out that prohibition, and who knows where it will go in 9th. But combat drugs do affect one's position on the spectrum between calm and enraged.

Finally, I'm curious to know if there are any options. We don't know what they'll do to wych weapons, and I always wanted to see Lelith use them all. Too small to magnetize I think- too bad.

She looks like a hobbit who ate one too many pies. Look at those massive feet! It's Samwise Gamgee in a boob suit.

Somebody said it was just the way they photographed it but if their professional photographers can't help making the model look like a hobbit there's something wrong with the model.

I like the new Lelith. It seems to me that most of the criticisms of the model come are actually an optical illusion caused by the larger picture and the change in pose. The picture is larger so everything looks off when you compare the pictures side-by-side. Also, her new pose has her shoulders spread out a bit more and her chest pushed outward, emphasizing her bust (which isn't really that big). Her foot looks large, but again we are dealing with a larger scale picture with that feature being farther forward. I guess we will see if I am right when he 360 becomes available.

As for the face, we seem to have gone from disdain to contempt. A more active emotion. I guess that comes from hanging with he Ynnari.

But that's the point. If you choose a pose that when photographed head-on makes her look like a hobbit by emphasizing her massive left foot and compressing her legs so they look shorter than her arms, that's a bad pose. Whether or not there's another angle that looks more natural. The weird 3 foot tall hair also contributes to the hobbit factor. It's just a bunch of really weird artistic choices that all work together to make her look short and squat, which is the last thing you should be going for with that character.

This is why turntable shots are important, but there are reasons why they don't seem to be providing them anymore.

Old for 100% sure, the new model is terrible.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
This is why turntable shots are important, but there are reasons why they don't seem to be providing them anymore.

We will get it at the normally appointed time, at model preorder. They love to keep us waiting for more.

I will say that someone in one of the DE facebook groups posted a bunch of screenshots from the video they released. When she's facing left (stage right), the overall effect is much nicer.

So while there's room for improvement, I think we'll all be a bit happier once we've seen her from more angles/in person. She definitely wouldn't be the first GW model that looked awful on the promo material and then turned out to actually be pretty neat.

That said, I probably won't be using her as actual Lelith; her expression is just too out of character for me. It would be cool if her bits lend themselves well to conversions.

The face alone makes me like the old model more. The newer one's grimace looks too mannish and ugly for someone who is supposed to be effortless in her ability to dance circles around most opponents.

It's the same problem that Fulgrim has with his model, where his in medias res yell makes it look like someone has put a hairdryer into his mouth.

The story that this sculpt tells me isn't that she's a hyper-skillful combatant whose movements make those of other wyches look clumsy. The story it tells me is that this wych has had a bad day, and she's lost her cool, and she's either about to die or about to win but only with desperate attacks that will leave her exhausted. If you set this model across from the generic succubus, which one looks more confident that they're about to win the fight? Or heck, put this Lelith across form the old Lelith. 5e Lelith will look like she's about to cut New Lelith to ribbons.

Edit: Maybe worth mentioning. I'd love the new Lelith expression on, say, a sister of battle or tons of other models. It's just very out of place on Lelith specifically.

Lilith is specifically a character for which an alluring appearance is very important. She is supposed to be very pretty from a fluff point of view; it's part of her job. Further, the emotion expressed does not fit the character. That is why it is brought up so much, not because people are upset that 'ew a female model is ugly'. Eldar are supposed to be extremely thin compared to a human, which is why the thicker build comes up so much. If this were a human character the reaction to the body proportions would be very different.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Lilith is specifically a character for which an alluring appearance is very important. She is supposed to be very pretty from a fluff point of view; it's part of her job. Further, the emotion expressed does not fit the character. That is why it is brought up so much, not because people are upset that 'ew a female model is ugly'.

I'd also say she's a model that really doesn't need a "dynamic" pose.

I'd much rather see something based on this:

Opps, confused as to what page we were on.

@Vipoid:
I don't mind the dynamic pose (and love what they did with Jain Zar), but you're right. The old 3rd edition model kind of had that going for it. She *may* have been stabbing someone to death, but she had a lot of "majesty" baked into a relatively static pose.

I'm so sick of "standing on one foot" poses. Like it was fine when they were metal and you could bend them back but hard plastic just result in breaks.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
New Sculpt is VASTLY better, and the people saying otherwise are stuck with their rose tinted glasses with that awful constipation face.

No, both kind of suck, new one is somehow worse, and I've never played a Dark Eldar game in my entire life.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeff white wrote:
Why not scan and make new molds for plastic from the old model? New one sux. Old one was... better. But there must be a half dozen better 3rd party models that are better in every way.

This one is an easy win:
https://www.ragingheroes.com/a/s/products/asharah-tgg2-ve-sf

That looks like unwashed ass.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
Why not scan and make new molds for plastic from the old model? New one sux. Old one was... better. But there must be a half dozen better 3rd party models that are better in every way.

This one is an easy win:
https://www.ragingheroes.com/a/s/products/asharah-tgg2-ve-sf

That looks like unwashed ass.

I think it looks great . . . and then my gaze reaches the legs.

Maybe it's an issue with the perspective, but the new sculpt looks somewhat squat. Not exactly what I'd imagine a lithe and elegant killer to look like.

The face is also an atrocity, but sisters have already shown that this could be largely due to the studio paintjob.

Conclusion: need more pics, preferably on an unpainted model, to form a final opinion, but what I'm seeing does not make me happy.

I'm glad I got my 5th Ed Lelith in metal. Actually, I have the original too (in a box somewhere).

I'm not a fan of the new one. A lot of it is the face; it just changes the mood. Like others have more eloquently said before me, she doesn't look like a cold, aloof master-killer who carefully dissects her prey before they even realize they've been cut.

Honestly, i really feel like the paintjob is the main reason its getting so much flak. Her muscles are as exxagerated as catachans which makes her look less lean like eldar usually are.
And her face look weird mostly because the brow and the folds beside her nose are too defined, and her lips are too dark.

change these and she will look much better imo.

 Grimoir wrote:
Methinks this Poll could be improved a bit

1) Old Lilith (Finecast)
2) Old Lilith (Plastic)
3) New Lilith (Plastic)
4) New Lilith (Finecast)
5) Both
6) Neither

And before some intrepid Internet Warrior mentions it .... Yeah I am aware that the "Old" Lilith isn't available in Plastic. And the New one isn't available in Finecast.

except thats a false choice. seriously, that's like endorsing a political party with a differant canidate during an election

I agree with most of the people's opinions in this thread. The new Hesperax model is not an Elf body type at least when going by traditional elves. And Eldar are supposed to be space elves.

The most surprising thing to me was that they made her bust, hips/thighs, & feet bigger than the previous model. Not close to the older sculpt, obviously larger to the point there is no mistaking it. She is now stocky like a female dwarf and not like a traditional lithe elven bodytype. And as "NinthMuskeeter" stated, if this was a human model then the thickness factor would not be a problem.

I say that anyone who likes the old sculpt of Hesperax get it while you can. For those that like this newer sculpt but hate the face at least there are other heads out there. If I ever, ever find this newer sculpt for a deal and buy it I'll be changing that head at the very least. And do some other tweaks depending on the conversion job I'm using it for. Though the older sculpt & the first sculpt are much more preferable in my eye.

Compared to the new Sigmar Slaanesh Mortals shown today I'll take any of them over this new Hesperax. Unless New Hesperax's body type is needed for a hobby project you are working on I say look into one of the Slaanesh mortals instead for conversion work.

I like the old one better, but as was said before, I think that the positioning of the photo and the paintjob is what really mucks the look of the new one. The same thing happened when people didn't like the SoB heads, which again was largely due to how they were painted.

I find this model particularly dissapointing when compared to the Succubus model which is actually a lot better in everything from armor deisgn to face even down to the pose. It's a bit ridiculous that the "queen of wytches" doesn't hold a candle to a regular Succubus. Sure Lelith cannot exactly stand out thanks to a fancy armor, but there is a certain lack of effort into her design. Plus, if the fine regal trait of a woman are difficult to produce and paint on a 3 centimeter tall model, why not give her back her half helmet from 3rd eddition back? Give it a sexy mascerade look and you just solve a problem right there.

Blackie wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Considering how limited the Dark Eldar range is, why not both?

Because she's a named character, you can only field one model. If she was a generic HQ like a succubus then yeah, why not both?

Sorry, I didn't quote what I was putting the question to.

The "Why not both?" was for rebuilding the line as well as adding something new, as evidenced by the next sentence talking about developers' time to help provide some context.

Really, the only reason to take both would be to use one for travel and competition and the other for things to change things up or be better a better looking leader for things like Kill Team, or if you're just a dedicated collector.

The two older versions (metal with mask and 1st barefoot version) are about a tie. The new sculpt is hideous. Does she have ork blood? Chunkiness is not a trademark of the Drukhari. That club foot and constipated countenance aren't cutting it. Yikes. That's a hard pass.

I like the old one better. The new one looks bad in the same way that plastic banshee exarch HQ (? not sure if shes an exarch, dont play eldar) looks bad, the pose is derpy and feels clumsy and departs too much from the established Jes Goodwin eldar look IMHO.. Too brazilian physique somehow, for lack of a better term, eldars have always had long skinny frame IIRC

Also, for someone being all about melee, that much hair is just looking for trouble.. unless its a toupee

 tauist wrote:

Also, for someone being all about melee, that much hair is just looking for trouble.. unless its a toupee

But once again, the hair being loose is part of her background. That is one thing they have got right and are consistent about. She is that skilled a fighter that she wears it loose (and no armour either, yet they have added armour to the new one...) as a way of goading her opponents in. It's a feature, not a bug.

Old by a mile.

New looks fat with an ugly face. And that left foot, good grief.

Big hair is cool.

Old is much better, new one is more human that aeldar, it totally lacks elegacy.

Marin wrote:
Old is much better, new one is more human that aeldar, it totally lacks elegacy.

Seconded.
Face of the new one is not Eldar like - looks more like a human.

The amount of muscles are fine, and the "squat" appearance is just the perspective of the photo. People tend to forget that Eldar are fething JACKED, 7 foot tall murder machines made of nothing but muscle. Old Lelith is rockin' a mighty set of abs.

Where the sculpt falls apart is the right arm and the face. The face mainly because it doesn't fit her character in the slightest. The thing that sets Lelith apart is her completely stoic, calm and confident demeanour and that face sculpt does not capture that in the slightest. The right arm just looks unnatural and doesn't fit in with the rest of the pose and sets the entire silhouette and flow of the model off. I could actually deal with the face and overall model otherwise, but that right arm positioning actually ruins it.

I don't think the thing is about beautiful or not beautiful, that's subjective. Beautiful women (or men) look angry when they are angry, and this new Lelith is indeed angry.

All Wyches are supposed to be beautiful, even if Lelith is the most, but that doesn't change that they are in the middle of a death battle vs their enemies.
Lelith, when you play her ingame, is not in the arena trying to seduce the spectators, she's in the middle of the war. She's one of the best duelists in the galaxy, but that's just context, not the real situation of a wh40k battle.

Also she changed in the fluff, after she beat Yvraine and joined her cause, maybe she's just more emotional than before.

As someone who hasn’t been around for years, do these dual-faction boxes normally just contain models or are there mission packs/fluff included with them too?

 Denegaar wrote:
I don't think the thing is about beautiful or not beautiful, that's subjective. Beautiful women (or men) look angry when they are angry, and this new Lelith is indeed angry.

All Wyches are supposed to be beautiful, even if Lelith is the most, but that doesn't change that they are in the middle of a death battle vs their enemies.
Lelith, when you play her ingame, is not in the arena trying to seduce the spectators, she's in the middle of the war. She's one of the best duelists in the galaxy, but that's just context, not the real situation of a wh40k battle.

Also she changed in the fluff, after she beat Yvraine and joined her cause, maybe she's just more emotional than before.

If shes not in the arena why is she not wearing shoes? Presumably the arenas are flat sand for the most part. The battlefield is covered in debris and wreckage. Maybe shes angry cause she jabbed her foot on those thorns on her base.

 Horla wrote:
As someone who hasn’t been around for years, do these dual-faction boxes normally just contain models or are there mission packs/fluff included with them too?

Blood of the Phoenix (Drukhari vs Craftworlds) had a Campaign Book included. I guess this one will have it too.

 Bosskelot wrote:
The amount of muscles are fine, and the "squat" appearance is just the perspective of the photo. People tend to forget that Eldar are fething JACKED, 7 foot tall murder machines made of nothing but muscle. Old Lelith is rockin' a mighty set of abs.

Where the sculpt falls apart is the right arm and the face. The face mainly because it doesn't fit her character in the slightest. The thing that sets Lelith apart is her completely stoic, calm and confident demeanour and that face sculpt does not capture that in the slightest. The right arm just looks unnatural and doesn't fit in with the rest of the pose and sets the entire silhouette and flow of the model off. I could actually deal with the face and overall model otherwise, but that right arm positioning actually ruins it.

Naa, her legs and body is to thick, she is thicker than the sister with power armor. Old model was also ripped without being thick.

Marin 794881 11014922 wrote:
Naa, her legs and body is to thick, she is thicker than the sister with power armor. Old model was also ripped without being thick.

Friend you are a bulgarian. Don't you remember how female wrestlers or female weight lifters look like, or even MMA fighter. Anyone who thinks she is too big and too squat looking, hasn't seen much female contact sports. And dark eldar are suppose to be even more buff then human, with no fat and super muscle just like orcs.

Karol wrote:

Marin 794881 11014922 wrote:
Naa, her legs and body is to thick, she is thicker than the sister with power armor. Old model was also ripped without being thick.

Friend you are a bulgarian. Don't you remember how female wrestlers or female weight lifters look like, or even MMA fighter. Anyone who thinks she is too big and too squat looking, hasn't seen much female contact sports. And dark eldar are suppose to be even more buff then human, with no fat and super muscle just like orcs.

Dark eldar are elves in a sci-fi universe. And I've never seen muscular elves, let alone females.

I second those ones who don't like the model's legs. I can accept the face, which isn't actually bad at all IMHO, but the legs are definitely too thick for a character that is supposed to be super fast thanks to her inhuman reflexes. Lelith has nothing to do with wrestlers or MMA fighters.

 Bosskelot wrote:
The amount of muscles are fine, and the "squat" appearance is just the perspective of the photo. People tend to forget that Eldar are fething JACKED, 7 foot tall murder machines made of nothing but muscle. Old Lelith is rockin' a mighty set of abs.

Where the sculpt falls apart is the right arm and the face. The face mainly because it doesn't fit her character in the slightest. The thing that sets Lelith apart is her completely stoic, calm and confident demeanour and that face sculpt does not capture that in the slightest. The right arm just looks unnatural and doesn't fit in with the rest of the pose and sets the entire silhouette and flow of the model off. I could actually deal with the face and overall model otherwise, but that right arm positioning actually ruins it.

Have you confused Eldar with Space Marines here?

 Da Boss wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:
The amount of muscles are fine, and the "squat" appearance is just the perspective of the photo. People tend to forget that Eldar are fething JACKED, 7 foot tall murder machines made of nothing but muscle. Old Lelith is rockin' a mighty set of abs.

Where the sculpt falls apart is the right arm and the face. The face mainly because it doesn't fit her character in the slightest. The thing that sets Lelith apart is her completely stoic, calm and confident demeanour and that face sculpt does not capture that in the slightest. The right arm just looks unnatural and doesn't fit in with the rest of the pose and sets the entire silhouette and flow of the model off. I could actually deal with the face and overall model otherwise, but that right arm positioning actually ruins it.

Have you confused Eldar with Space Marines here?

Have you ever paid attention to Eldar lore or other Eldar models that show a lot of skin?

A baseline space elf is taller, stronger and more well-defined musculature wise than most humans. And this is before being an Aspect Warrior or a Wych or using Psychic amplification of any sort. They're not as bulky as an Astartes or Ork of course, but they're still fething strong and have a lot of lean muscle.

Karol wrote:

Marin 794881 11014922 wrote:
Naa, her legs and body is to thick, she is thicker than the sister with power armor. Old model was also ripped without being thick.

Friend you are a bulgarian. Don't you remember how female wrestlers or female weight lifters look like, or even MMA fighter. Anyone who thinks she is too big and too squat looking, hasn't seen much female contact sports. And dark eldar are suppose to be even more buff then human, with no fat and super muscle just like orcs.

Are you comparing humans with fantasy space race ?
There is no reason to believe aeldar and human muscles are the some and need the some quantity. Aeldar bones are much lighter and thinner and that means Lilith muscles are probably 2x bigger than space marine.
Also aeldar fighting style is dependent on speed and not MMA style trading blows and wrestling, so your comparisons is pointless. This Lilith could probably suplex Gulliman.

Marin 794881 11014953 wrote:

Are you comparing humans with fantasy space race ?

Considering the esthetics of the model are judged by humans yes. People say she is fat and too muscular. I go to , well not right now, to a sports school and I can tell you there is nothing out of ordinary with her size. now if she was lifting up an outrider bike and overhead throwing it, without any sort of augumentation or force field or magic helping, there would be problems. But right now the model seems good to me. The hair is plastic level of ugly though. I don't know what it is with GW models and hair. The one I have seen made in metal or resin have a good natural, or maybe I should call it organic, look to it, the plastic hair on GW models makes the models look worse in majority of times. And in all times when it looks good or okey GW slaps some horns or something on the model to make it sure the whole thing looks ugly.

This Lilith could probably suplex Gulliman.

to paraphrase a man much smarter then me, give me a big enough leaver and I will suplex a humanoid the size of Gulliman.

Old, it's kinda strange because if you look at some of the new hedonite female sculpts it makes the problems even more obvious. The new model looks like a butch human. The model doesn't sell me onto her story as one of the most graceful and deadliest combatants in the galaxy if you compare the new model with her old artwork, model and lore.

Oh hey, lets have the background of this character advance. We'll have her join a new faction, follow a new patron god. Won't that be interesting?

So what effect will this have on the design of her model?

Well... her hair is chunkier now..?

They're not as bulky as an Astartes or Ork of course, but they're still fething strong and have a lot of lean muscle

Exactly- LEAN MUSCLE. Like the old model.

I picked the old one but it’s not even based on looks for me. It’s based on the fact that we FINALLY get a non-marine Xenos release, and it ends up being a model literally NO ONE was asking for from a codex that has done nothing but loose units since 5th edition. Classic GW and they can fetch right off with this.

Give DE a lost character back? Or possibly give them a brand new one? Nah feth those guys. We’ll give ‘em “Schwarzenegger Lilith” instead.

Lelith is supposed to be beautiful and elegant. It's two of her main defining features (next to being deadly). She's not only the best pit fighter but also the courtesan to the ruler of Comorragh. Audiences are smitten by her beauty and purposely bared flesh. How do you square that with what we've seen from the new sculpt?

It's not about body shaming or unattainable beauty standards, but what was an established character now apparently changed in a major fashion for no reason.

Yeah her ENTIRE schtick was "Look at me, I am so beautiful and skilled I can fight in the arena with no armour and hooks in my hair and I don't have a single scar on my body because I am that good and (pre-retcon) without sullying my body with silly drugs."

 Horla wrote:
As someone who hasn’t been around for years, do these dual-faction boxes normally just contain models or are there mission packs/fluff included with them too?

Nah, it's just a blatant means to either force people to pay many times more than they ordinarily would to get new sculpts for The Second Class Citizen factions, or it's a way to basically create a quasi-MLM structure where GW sells directly to a bunch of scalpers who then parcel the minis out and try to make a profit off them.


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 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yeah her ENTIRE schtick was "Look at me, I am so beautiful and skilled I can fight in the arena with no armour and hooks in my hair and I don't have a single scar on my body because I am that good and (pre-retcon) without sullying my body with silly drugs."

Lelith has not been retconned to do drugs. The fact that she had the combat drugs rule in the index was evidently considered a mistake, as they replaced it with a differently named rule in the codex ("a different league" or something, basically gives the effects of combat drugs but you get to switch whenever you like.)

the_scotsman wrote:
Lelith has not been retconned to do drugs. The fact that she had the combat drugs rule in the index was evidently considered a mistake, as they replaced it with a differently named rule in the codex ("a different league" or something, basically gives the effects of combat drugs but you get to switch whenever you like.)

Ah, fair enough! I just had it in my head they retconned that, not been following DE closely since the launch of 8th. Thank you!

The face just turns me off on the new model. Looks to me like a trailer park meth queen in a psychotic rage because the quickie mart at the entrance to the park is out of her favorite ice cream.

The old one's face was cool, intense, focused and made her role as a disciplined, highly trained and professional fighter more believable.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Oh hey, lets have the background of this character advance. We'll have her join a new faction, follow a new patron god. Won't that be interesting?

So what effect will this have on the design of her model?

Well... her hair is chunkier now..?

It is true that if you lay off supplements and no longer take shots, you start getting fat. Everyone knows it that is why you have sports camps durning summer, to not have a 3 month gap in taking them. But still I really don't think she is fat. She is build like a female wrestler or weight lifter would be build. Ain't no gymnast that is for sure, but she is too old for doing that anyway. Practicaly no one stays doing that over mid 20s.

Thread is actual comedy gold! Could be satire on angry nerdy losers

Eldar don't age like humans, and Dark Eldar especially, due to them replenishing their souls. She's not going to radically transform over the handful of years that the Gathering Storm plotline takes place over.

Eldrad is crystallising mainly due to his extreme, even by Eldar standards, age (he was around before the fall after all) as well as still utilising his psychic abilities.

You haven't see how people look after they go off cycle. I have seen dudes that were big like walls, turn in to 140kg blobs of fat over 6 month this very year, just because they stoped taking shots and supplements. Even a month after cycle you can see difference, you just can't keep up the big and lean muscle mass without help, there is no way going around it. Even if you have perfect genetics, and are huge, this just does not work, and she is a female on top of that. a few months on a ship with less torturing being done, less drugs, and she no longer looks like a crossfitter and more like a regular brawler.

Karol wrote:
You haven't see how people look after they go off cycle. I have seen dudes that were big like walls, turn in to 140kg blobs of fat over 6 month this very year, just because they stoped taking shots and supplements. Even a month after cycle you can see difference, you just can't keep up the big and lean muscle mass without help, there is no way going around it. Even if you have perfect genetics, and are huge, this just does not work, and she is a female on top of that. a few months on a ship with less torturing being done, less drugs, and she no longer looks like a crossfitter and more like a regular brawler.

So it's unfit, out of shape Lelith? Gee, thanks GW.

I'm not convinced by that argument. The new Ragnar didn't have a pot belly because he's overdone the feasting back at The Fang. That would be silly. I think you're reading too much into a sculpt that just looks like GW just got it a bit wrong...

Karol wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Oh hey, lets have the background of this character advance. We'll have her join a new faction, follow a new patron god. Won't that be interesting?

So what effect will this have on the design of her model?

Well... her hair is chunkier now..?

It is true that if you lay off supplements and no longer take shots, you start getting fat. Everyone knows it that is why you have sports camps durning summer, to not have a 3 month gap in taking them. But still I really don't think she is fat. She is build like a female wrestler or weight lifter would be build. Ain't no gymnast that is for sure, but she is too old for doing that anyway. Practicaly no one stays doing that over mid 20s.

Her HAIR. I literally made no comment on her being fat. Her HAIR isn't as finely sculpted on the new version.

I don't think GWs train of thought when modelling miniatures is that intrincate, they just follow some kind of marketing strategy.

They slightly reimagined Lelith being a little thicker, angrier and showing less bottoms... I don't think wearing pants just abolishes all the character lore. The Lelith art on the boxset is also not how most people imagine her.

Like with Drazhar, it's probably going to be better once people gets to see the model live, and not in 3 photos.

 Bosskelot wrote:
The amount of muscles are fine, and the "squat" appearance is just the perspective of the photo. People tend to forget that Eldar are fething JACKED, 7 foot tall murder machines made of nothing but muscle. Old Lelith is rockin' a mighty set of abs.

Where the sculpt falls apart is the right arm and the face. The face mainly because it doesn't fit her character in the slightest. The thing that sets Lelith apart is her completely stoic, calm and confident demeanour and that face sculpt does not capture that in the slightest. The right arm just looks unnatural and doesn't fit in with the rest of the pose and sets the entire silhouette and flow of the model off. I could actually deal with the face and overall model otherwise, but that right arm positioning actually ruins it.

Well-put. The images I've seen of the model in profile do look a lot better, but the arms definitely aren't doing her a lot of favors. Like, I'm trying to figure out what series of movements causes that particular hair swoop and arm/face positioning. It kind of seems like she's jumping up onto the rock, stabbing someone with her left-hand knife with no power coming from the rest of her body, and getting ready stab some other dude that she isn't looking at. (Her focus seems to be on the guy she's killing with her left hand despite only having the strength of a single arm behind the attack.) I'm rambling, but I agree that they ought to have done something different with the arms. Maybe there will be an impaler arm option that looks better?


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 BaconCatBug wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Lelith has not been retconned to do drugs. The fact that she had the combat drugs rule in the index was evidently considered a mistake, as they replaced it with a differently named rule in the codex ("a different league" or something, basically gives the effects of combat drugs but you get to switch whenever you like.)

Ah, fair enough! I just had it in my head they retconned that, not been following DE closely since the launch of 8th. Thank you!

Lelith's struggle with drug addiction and the PR around it is a whole thing, really. She wasn't on drugs when the first DE codex came out. Then they FAQ'd it to say that she was because, "Otherwise she'd be the only wych in the galaxy not doing drugs!" In the 5th edition codex, she was off of drugs again with fluff explicitly saying she was so good she didn't need them. I forget where she stood in the 7e codex, but as of the 8th edition codex she doesn't do drugs, but she's so gosh darn athletic she gets a special rule that kind of simulates combat drugs.


Also, quick note on the comment above about wearing shoes. Commoraghn arenas are sometimes sand, but they're also sometimes broken glass, razor wire, or absolutely anything else the drukhari might think is fun that day. So if Lelith can dance across that nonsense without hurting herself (and she can), she's probably fine on a battlefield too. My headcanon is that she's so used to fighting bootless that putting on shoes would actually throw off her carefully honed movements.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Her HAIR. I literally made no comment on her being fat. Her HAIR isn't as finely sculpted on the new version.

Its bigger though. And really, while I find some of the lore discussion interesting - I think its misplaced.
Because a model, she's a wych with bigger hair. So bigger=better. Like Drazhar has become an Incubi with more bling.
And unfortunately I think that results in a boring model. I don't think she's bad, just dull. A missed opportunity.

Wyldhunt wrote:


Also, quick note on the comment above about wearing shoes. Commoraghn arenas are sometimes sand, but they're also sometimes broken glass, razor wire, or absolutely anything else the drukhari might think is fun that day. So if Lelith can dance across that nonsense without hurting herself (and she can), she's probably fine on a battlefield too. My headcanon is that she's so used to fighting bootless that putting on shoes would actually throw off her carefully honed movements.

That, or she just can't find any shoes in size "hobbit."

yukishiro1 794881 11015173 wrote:

That, or she just can't find any shoes in size "hobbit."

If she does a lot of fighting in the area on gravel, then her feet should be rough and cracked like wooden bark. Don't really need shoes with feet like that.


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Crispy78 794881 11015128 wrote:

So it's unfit, out of shape Lelith? Gee, thanks GW.

I'm not convinced by that argument. The new Ragnar didn't have a pot belly because he's overdone the feasting back at The Fang. That would be silly. I think you're reading too much into a sculpt that just looks like GW just got it a bit wrong...

Well he did have that other dude with him in some of the books, that wore a decommissions mish mash of power armour and termintor armour to fit in to it. Ragnar even says it in one of the books that he was the first marine he could ever describe as fat.

I don't think she is fat. She is the right shape to me an MMA fighter or a female wrestler, minus the hair maybe. And if she can't do DE version of omnadrenin, because of the whole Inari think, there could be muscle mass drop.

Karol wrote:

yukishiro1 794881 11015173 wrote:

That, or she just can't find any shoes in size "hobbit."

If she does a lot of fighting in the area on gravel, then her feet should be rough and cracked like wooden bark. Don't really need shoes with feet like that.

I honestly don't know why you keep applying human physiology to a fictitious alien species...

I have seen people on "both sides" (Oh god) of the "she was sexualised before and that was awesome" and "she was sexualised before and that is terrible"

But like...

Aren't both of those models sexualised, and she is just chunkier because it is harder to do skinny models in plastic?

There is a difference between "needless" sexualisation and sexualisation as part of the character and lore of a fictional character.

Lelith very much fits into the latter, since one of the major aspects of her character was her beauty, being an un-scarred Succubus with fighting prowess in the top percentage of Rattata arena fighters. "Beware of an old man in a profession where men usually die young" and all that. I appreciate that GW are stuck between a rock and a hard place, but not sticking to their guns is going to just piss off everyone, since the ones clamouring for GW to capitulate won't ever be happy.

Now, whether this was a conscious decision, a limitation of injection moulding technology, or simply because a change of corporate culture has caused the over-all talent level to drop with their sculptors, we'll never know.

I am not really commenting on sexualisation, it seems obvious to me that she is sexualised and like, whatever no big deal really. But saying the new one is not sexualised is what is weird to me because she looks really, really similar.

It's not a technological issue with plastic; it's just a poor effort from GW. The new Lileth's expression looked familiar...

I can't seem to load any pictures of Gollum sneering, but you get the idea.

Just throw in some steroids and a wig and you're all set.

 Bosskelot wrote:
People tend to forget that Eldar are fething JACKED

No they aren't, lmao. What? Eldar universally have dancers' bodies. They have muscle, but it's lean, purely functional muscle. Eldar have never been "jacked"- ever. The biggest an Eldar should ever look is a swimmers' body. Long torsos, densely packed muscle but very lean.

Da Boss wrote:I am not really commenting on sexualisation, it seems obvious to me that she is sexualised and like, whatever no big deal really. But saying the new one is not sexualised is what is weird to me because she looks really, really similar.

Agreed. Aside from a change from a battle-thong to something slightly more practical, bigger hair, and a leering face (the face is fine, just have her not snarling, and we're golden), I really don't see all that much of a difference. She still looks lithe to me, and still has that "impractical gladiatrix" vibe.

For all the people saying "she's fat!", I really ain't seeing it.

 Bosskelot wrote:
The amount of muscles are fine,

It's not, she looks like a dwarf, which would be fine if she was a dwarf but she's a dark eldar.

and the "squat" appearance is just the perspective of the photo.

Yet she looks squat in all of the angles I've seen of the model.

People tend to forget that Eldar are fething JACKED, 7 foot tall murder machines made of nothing but muscle. Old Lelith is rockin' a mighty set of abs.

Can you provide a single source stating that Eldar are "jacked"? Because every source I've ever seen indicates they are in fact proportionately more slender than humans.

Where the sculpt falls apart is the right arm and the face. The face mainly because it doesn't fit her character in the slightest. The thing that sets Lelith apart is her completely stoic, calm and confident demeanour and that face sculpt does not capture that in the slightest. The right arm just looks unnatural and doesn't fit in with the rest of the pose and sets the entire silhouette and flow of the model off. I could actually deal with the face and overall model otherwise, but that right arm positioning actually ruins it.

You forgot her huge clown foot.

Crispy78 wrote:
The new Ragnar didn't have a pot belly because he's overdone the feasting back at The Fang. That would be silly.

That's because Ragnar is... [puts on sunglasses] hungry like the wolf. YEEEEAAAAAHHHH!!!

Now that's silly.

Maybe it is the perspective but she just gets worse the more I look. The huge torso, the fat roll abs, and big hair make a husky dome of an elf. Even the knives look too thick. I will be fair with gw though, at least I can tell this one is a woman unlike the inquisitor.

All you need to do is compare this to Yvraine and the issues will become apparent.

It looks bad, the new one looks bad.

I cannot like any model that is supposed to engage in melee yet leaves that much of their abdomen unarmored and has hair that would just get in their way.

Rumbleguts wrote:
I cannot like any model that is supposed to engage in melee yet leaves that much of their abdomen unarmored and has hair that would just get in their way.

The whole point is that she is doing this as a sort of handicap, just like why she only wields two normal knives. Winning in spite of these handicaps is a way to flaunt how good she is, and is what gets her the crowd in Comorragh.

Iracundus wrote:

Rumbleguts wrote:
I cannot like any model that is supposed to engage in melee yet leaves that much of their abdomen unarmored and has hair that would just get in their way.

The whole point is that she is doing this as a sort of handicap, just like why she only wields two normal knives. Winning in spite of these handicaps is a way to flaunt how good she is, and is what gets her the crowd in Comorragh.

You would think people would read the thread before commenting on something that has been pointed out several times already.

But no...

 Grimtuff wrote:


I honestly don't know why you keep applying human physiology to a fictitious alien species...

Because unless she wears shoes out of force field, if she has feet made of flesh, and from the few lore blurbs about eldar I read this seems to be the case, running around rough terrain would make her souls rough and cracked.

Not sure how to tell you this, but the Escher models more than likely *are* junkies. And, hot damn, having waists as wide as your hips makes you a steroid junkie? Exactly the kind of bodyshaming trash I'm talking about.

See, you might think that you're "just talking about models", but you're saying that, in order to "pass" as a woman, you need slender waists. I'm sure you don't hold that opinion about real people, no? So why bring it up about models?

Gut blow out are really common if you use enhancers. And practical everyone in sports tries to have diagnoses diabetes and asthma. If those esters, which I have not seen the models of, are shaped like a block, and have a high chance of being supplement users and live in an underhive enviroment, which eliminates the chance of them to be just fat, then probably are taking anabolics of some sort. I know the big dude gang does it on a daily basis, like our local shark club members.

To quote you, you claimed they needed to be "beautiful". Why?

Don't the convents, not just for sobs, pick based on racial purity? you can't be even a little bit in to the mutant sphere of human race, can't be psyker, can't have any defects and in top physical shape. All those things generate symetry, and symetry is considered beautiful since for ever. being far from being symetric implies disease, lacks of nutrition durning growth, which often is linked to lower social status etc So SoB have to be beautiful, their training methods, ways of picking new candidates, better diet and constant training ensures that.




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 Void__Dragon wrote:


Can you provide a single source stating that Eldar are "jacked"? Because every source I've ever seen indicates they are in fact proportionately more slender than humans.

.

There is a xenobilogy book, that shows an autopsy of an eldar, and mentions that eldar have 0% body fat. now humans can get close to that, but it requires dyhydrations and you are actualy not healthy keeping it up for longer then an event time. And it is practicaly only something body builders do. People that do sports, specialy contact sports, only drop weights to play the pre game game with weighting. So look wise if an eldar could operate at a 0% or close to that body fat, he or she would look really jacked. And eldar muscles seems to be far superior to normal human ones too, much like the ones of orcs. Which is no wonder considering both were made by the same creators.

Who in their right mind would call something with such a physique "fat".

A crossfitter, weightlifter or someone in gymnastics. She actualy has too much muscle for pole vault or long distance running. But for short 100-200m dash she has the perfect physics. Look at Marion Johns, aside for colour, they look very much the same. With the stocky muscular build, that works so well in those kind of sports.

I found the old version a bit uninteresting, and I refused to buy it cos finecast. The new version is unambitious, and has the same ropey, detail-light hair that the Drazhar model does.

I hope that the stockier look of the new model is just the angle of the photo, but it currently appears to be an inferior model to the regular plastic Succubus. I am really grateful that the Drukhari troop models were updated some time ago.

Karol wrote:

To quote you, you claimed they needed to be "beautiful". Why?

Don't the convents, not just for sobs, pick based on racial purity? you can't be even a little bit in to the mutant sphere of human race, can't be psyker, can't have any defects and in top physical shape. All those things generate symetry, and symetry is considered beautiful since for ever. being far from being symetric implies disease, lacks of nutrition durning growth, which often is linked to lower social status etc So SoB have to be beautiful, their training methods, ways of picking new candidates, better diet and constant training ensures that.

Not really. First, ideological purity is the primary concern of the Imperium, especially within the Schola - not aesthetic purity. Second, these are *battle nuns*. Experienced and fanatic warriors - I'd be worried if they weren't scarred and well-built instead of stereotypically "beautiful".

So, nah, beauty isn't really the hallmark of the Sororitas, as they find beauty to be more linked to their faith and service. Aesthetic isn't exactly a high priority, which is why the idea of Sisters needing to look "beautiful" to Morkphoiz is so incredibly misplaced, as why on earth do they need to look stereotypically "beautiful"?

Yeah, for all the little niggles about the sculpt, posing and (probably) high-contrast painting style used on the new one... she's not Finecast and thus a model I'll actually *buy*

Erring towards the old over the new for now, although a different paintjob and a 360 might change my mind. Main concern is the face.

 Marshal Loss wrote:
Erring towards the old over the new for now, although a different paintjob and a 360 might change my mind. Main concern is the face.

you could order the head from the Kalinda Venoramus made by wArtel. has both a nice looking face and the proper hair, which is a lot better looking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not really. First, ideological purity is the primary concern of the Imperium, especially within the Schola - not aesthetic purity. Second, these are *battle nuns*. Experienced and fanatic warriors - I'd be worried if they weren't scarred and well-built instead of stereotypically "beautiful".

So, nah, beauty isn't really the hallmark of the Sororitas, as they find beauty to be more linked to their faith and service. Aesthetic isn't exactly a high priority, which is why the idea of Sisters needing to look "beautiful" to Morkphoiz is so incredibly misplaced, as why on earth do they need to look stereotypically "beautiful"?

they a sociaty build on the very idea of xeno hatred. They litteraly "can not suffer the mutant to live" , unless there is a high lords or emperors decree to "not kill this specific mutant".

And yes they are battle nuns and female. You would be suprised what happens to humans, which you cherry pick them at a young age from a specific pool of children, then give them good diet, a training regime. They somehow end up being more fit, with fewer health problems, mostly because having them kicks you out of the program etc. And you know what fit and healthy humans are? they are beutiful, because body symetry is something all biologicial things look for. A cannones or a training superior doesn't have to pick convent candidates based on beauty ( specialy consideirng most schola entries would be early or even pre teens), they pick for health and good base. Beauty comes on its own.

The issue with the face is similar to that of the Banshee Exarch, which Gareth Nicholas presented a more feminine paint job to great effect...

https://garethnicholasblog.wordpress.com/2020/01/06/howling-banshee-exarch/

...which is in contrast to the GW paint job...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldar/comments/d1sykk/new_ynnari_banshee_exarch/

SamusDrake wrote:
The issue with the face is similar to that of the Banshee Exarch, which Gareth Nicholas presented a more feminine paint job to great effect...

https://garethnicholasblog.wordpress.com/2020/01/06/howling-banshee-exarch/

...which is in contrast to the GW paint job...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldar/comments/d1sykk/new_ynnari_banshee_exarch/

The difference is staggering. Cannot wait to see what other people manage to do with Lelith.

Absolutely. It convinced me to get the new banshees and even use the Ynnari heads, which I previously had no love for and the kit is notoriously expensive.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

SamusDrake wrote:
The issue with the face is similar to that of the Banshee Exarch, which Gareth Nicholas presented a more feminine paint job to great effect...

https://garethnicholasblog.wordpress.com/2020/01/06/howling-banshee-exarch/

...which is in contrast to the GW paint job...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldar/comments/d1sykk/new_ynnari_banshee_exarch/

yeah, the reason GW paintjobs make all female faces look male is that they over define the brow and nasolabial folds.
With the new lelith they went too far with every single muscle group, which makes her look like a jacked catachan.

Foot, calves, hair, and face. All of these areas appear out of proportion. I viewed the multiple angles of the model and it just seems to miss the mark. Maybe more skilled paintwork will help.

SamusDrake wrote:
The issue with the face is similar to that of the Banshee Exarch, which Gareth Nicholas presented a more feminine paint job to great effect...

https://garethnicholasblog.wordpress.com/2020/01/06/howling-banshee-exarch/

...which is in contrast to the GW paint job...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldar/comments/d1sykk/new_ynnari_banshee_exarch/

Wow. That is an amazing paint job. The GW paint job does make it look like a male model while Gareth's job makes it obviously female. I also look forward to what a non-Heavy Metal paint job does to this model.

Proportions will probably remain an issue. Take Yvraine and the dark elf SoS as an example of lithe arena fighters. GW can do this properly, so the question remains why they thought Lelith should look like an MMA fighter instead. It's baffling, really.

 BertBert wrote:

SamusDrake wrote:
The issue with the face is similar to that of the Banshee Exarch, which Gareth Nicholas presented a more feminine paint job to great effect...

https://garethnicholasblog.wordpress.com/2020/01/06/howling-banshee-exarch/

...which is in contrast to the GW paint job...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldar/comments/d1sykk/new_ynnari_banshee_exarch/

The difference is staggering. Cannot wait to see what other people manage to do with Lelith.

Ditto. I like the GW paint job on that model, but Gareth's blows it out of the water. I feel like the 'Eavy Metal team is trying to... overcompensate? And paint in more dramatic detail than is actually there. Maybe they have just painted so much for so long their perspective is metaphorically jaded.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 BertBert wrote:

SamusDrake wrote:
The issue with the face is similar to that of the Banshee Exarch, which Gareth Nicholas presented a more feminine paint job to great effect...

https://garethnicholasblog.wordpress.com/2020/01/06/howling-banshee-exarch/

...which is in contrast to the GW paint job...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldar/comments/d1sykk/new_ynnari_banshee_exarch/

The difference is staggering. Cannot wait to see what other people manage to do with Lelith.

Ditto. I like the GW paint job on that model, but Gareth's blows it out of the water. I feel like the 'Eavy Metal team is trying to... overcompensate? And paint in more dramatic detail than is actually there. Maybe they have just painted so much for so long their perspective is metaphorically jaded.

I do feel a common problem with ‘Eavy Metal paint jobs is that they seem to be more about showing off the technical abilities and fine detail control of the painters than it is about actually looking *good*.

A lot of the issues with GW paint jobs could be avoided imo if they actually focused more on the aesthetics than how awesome they are at highlighting...

I suspect a lot of it's to do with 'selling' the detail of the model, which means an absurd amount of highlights and often very bright palettes. It's likely why the Death Guard paint jobs are so clean and tidy aside from the tentacles and I get the impression the Forge World painters have been 'encouraged' to do something similar, comparing the Night Lord art/models in Crusade to older offferings.

Lord Zarkov wrote:
I do feel a common problem with ‘Eavy Metal paint jobs is that they seem to be more about showing off the technical abilities and fine detail control of the painters than it is about actually looking *good*.

A lot of the issues with GW paint jobs could be avoided imo if they actually focused more on the aesthetics than how awesome they are at highlighting...

From all the interviews I've heard, the job of the 'Eavy Metal painters is to emphasis the details of the models. That's why they are so into edge highlighting on every single edge of the model. It is also why they tend to use bright colors. They want you to see all the details that are there.

Remember when they released the Bullgor models and every single crevice was marked out in contrast?

Wouldn't surprise me if they went over board again.

So maybe there is some hope for poor ol Lilly, then?

SamusDrake wrote:
So maybe there is some hope for poor ol Lilly, then?

I think there is. I have been consistently surprised how many models are previewed by GW followed by, 'Gasp! It is the worst thing ever!' (I'm exaggerating, calm down you lot). Only later to hear, 'It isn't nearly as bad in person.' I think this is a very good case for that.

The extreme close up photography and angle aren't doing the preview picture a lot of favors. I think the even the dark color of the armor is contributing to a more flat, and therefor, bulkier appearance that really isn't there. Finally, I don't think the 'eavy metal paint style is helping the preview model any. In fact, I am starting to believe that as a style starting to show what figures it doesn't work well with. At extreme close up at very least anyways.

I think once this model starting getting in the hands of real people the choir about it will be much quieter with murmurs of, 'It looks better in person.' I have seen this time and time again here and the wider internet with a number of models over the last few years. To be sure, there will still be complainers, many of which don't really like anything different for what existed in the first year they played 40k. I suspect most will go quiet or redirect their disdain on the next set of model previews to also complain about.

I think we should be celebrating yet another Finecast model purged from the GW inventory. There are still way too many for current year, but one less is one less.

 BertBert wrote:
Proportions will probably remain an issue. Take Yvraine and the dark elf SoS as an example of lithe arena fighters. GW can do this properly, so the question remains why they thought Lelith should look like an MMA fighter instead. It's baffling, really.

"Here's an arena fighter"

*presents ballgown*

Errr...

She is powerful now! She’s been murder knows how long? Over time she’d develop muscle. Get on board with it and stop body shaming her

Well, there's Poe's Law making its appearance.

Catulle wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
Proportions will probably remain an issue. Take Yvraine and the dark elf SoS as an example of lithe arena fighters. GW can do this properly, so the question remains why they thought Lelith should look like an MMA fighter instead. It's baffling, really.

"Here's an arena fighter"

*presents ballgown*

Errr...

I highligted the relevant part for you.

I'd say the old one looks better. It just feels better looking at them side to side. I appreciate the plastic upgrade and if you got it in finecast, well I'd go with the plastic one but honestly I think its a bad call to not bring back an old sculpt with a new redesign. Even if I do appreciate the retiring of a finecast kit with plastic as a good thing.

Prefer the old one(s), but still might get the new one.

In my personal opinion the more muscular built on the new one looks good, but it does not fit the image I have of a lean, athletic Eldar. For a human pit fighter the body would be more adequate.

The front foot looks a little strange, maybe a little too heroic.

And the face... well tastes differ, but if I was building and painting this model as Lelith I would use a different face, because her battle grimace does not fit with my personal imagination of the queen of blades: "The crowd hushed at the very sight of her beauty and elegance" (Codex: Dark Eldar (3rd Edition)) is defintely not what I see in the new model.

She looks strong, healthy and full of energy (only german trash tv fans may know the phrase...)

I hoped for something more spectacular. It's just a plastic remake of the finecrap model. Comparing her to the new slaanesh archers, there's much room for improvement.
(I have a softspot for combat-heels - would have liked to see lelith rockin' those...)

So out of curiosity, I showed the pics of old and new to Mrs. Tycho to get a woman's perspective (I told her none of my persona; feelings and she saw only the models and not the thread). She said she felt like the old one was Lilith in her early 20's full of life and hope and the new one is her 30/40 years later working as a Waffle House server after her dreams have been crushed. lol

Seriously though, I do wonder about the camera angle/lens combination. There's a fair bit of distortion on some of the newer model shots that surprises me. The original Inceptors come to mind for example. The ones with the "blast shield" down look stupid in real life and the photos, but the orginals looked bad and chunky to me in the pics, and look great IRL so mayber there is some hope.

I think the thing that makes me say "old one" is probably the absurd amount of hair. I greatly dislike GWs trend of giving so many models, both recently and old, so much long hair, seriously. I can't help but think that having that much of an mane would be rather stupid in basically any combat situation. And this is no exception. Sure, the old model already had ridiculously long hair, but still, I felt it was appropriate, especially for an arrogant arena fighter.
But the new hair is just... feels just waaaaaay too much.

 Lum wrote:
I think the thing that makes me say "old one" is probably the absurd amount of hair. I greatly dislike GWs trend of giving so many models, both recently and old, so much long hair, seriously. I can't help but think that having that much of an mane would be rather stupid in basically any combat situation. And this is no exception. Sure, the old model already had ridiculously long hair, but still, I felt it was appropriate, especially for an arrogant arena fighter.
But the new hair is just... feels just waaaaaay too much.

its part of her fluff tho... shes purposefuly fighting with a disadvantage to show off how good she is (long hair, little armor, barefoot). She even uses her hair as a weapon.

Me thinks she accidentally took the Combat Drug that was full of testosterone...

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Lum wrote:
I think the thing that makes me say "old one" is probably the absurd amount of hair. I greatly dislike GWs trend of giving so many models, both recently and old, so much long hair, seriously. I can't help but think that having that much of an mane would be rather stupid in basically any combat situation. And this is no exception. Sure, the old model already had ridiculously long hair, but still, I felt it was appropriate, especially for an arrogant arena fighter.
But the new hair is just... feels just waaaaaay too much.

its part of her fluff tho... shes purposefuly fighting with a disadvantage to show off how good she is (long hair, little armor, barefoot). She even uses her hair as a weapon.

Have we got a running tally of how many times this has been brought up through people not reading the bloody thread?

Seriously, for all of the mini's faults- that is not one. Read the thread people!

Well no, it still is a fault. There's "I do this as a handicap," and then there's "my hair is three feet tall and 8 feet long."

It's like the difference between an ork having a big gun because "big gunz is betta!" and an ork having a gun the size of a knight because "big gunz is betta!"

The hair on the old model is just about credible. The hair on the new model is into dumb territory.

And they clearly weren't caring much about her lore in general, given the thicker appearance and the extra armor they loaded her up with.

 Max Moray wrote:
Prefer the old one(s), but still might get the new one.

In my personal opinion the more muscular built on the new one looks good, but it does not fit the image I have of a lean, athletic Eldar. For a human pit fighter the body would be more adequate.

The front foot looks a little strange, maybe a little too heroic.

And the face... well tastes differ, but if I was building and painting this model as Lelith I would use a different face, because her battle grimace does not fit with my personal imagination of the queen of blades: "The crowd hushed at the very sight of her beauty and elegance" (Codex: Dark Eldar (3rd Edition)) is defintely not what I see in the new model.

I think her face it's not as bad as it seems it's just the black lips wich looks like she's angry while a bit less shade in the eyebrows and a more toned down lip colour may turn her face into something less extreme.

If they wanted to go snarling face, while sorta out of character since Lelith is supposed to be always composed and arrogant, there was an angle to explore. Lelith is supposed to be the most beautiful Dark Eldar there is. Make her snarling and monstrous to show that Dark Eldar standards of beauty are completely alien to us little human, yet her face looks very human and you could guess that without it she would look just like any other "pretty elf model". That's another case of mist opportunity and poor work. I'm tarting to think they tasked a bunch of "junior" scupltor to make her model while the good ones were busy with AoS models. I sure hope she isn't the only Dark Eldar model to be released with their new dex, but knowing GW she will.

Honestly asking, can a talented person cut her feet to make her more aquiline? Or is the model beyond hope? Otherwise she would make a great board piece for a arena display I am making!

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Honestly asking, can a talented person cut her feet to make her more aquiline? Or is the model beyond hope? Otherwise she would make a great board piece for a arena display I am making!

if you really feel like the feet are too big, i'd say cutting them off then pinning some regular ones from wyches could probably work.

I think the model is really striking but the face is so....it's like a roaring ork face, I don't know where they were going with it. Her old look was way more intimidating and "in keeping with her style". Calm, determined, professional killer. The new face just isn't intimidating, it's ugly.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think the model is really striking but the face is so....it's like a roaring ork face, I don't know where they were going with it. Her old look was way more intimidating and "in keeping with her style". Calm, determined, professional killer. The new face just isn't intimidating, it's ugly.

99% sure that its the paintjob that does this.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think the model is really striking but the face is so....it's like a roaring ork face, I don't know where they were going with it. Her old look was way more intimidating and "in keeping with her style". Calm, determined, professional killer. The new face just isn't intimidating, it's ugly.

99% sure that its the paintjob that does this.

I would like to see some variant paint jobs, I can't wait to see where they take it. That being said she's not going to be available outside the special box set for at least a while, so we may not see those variants for a while.

I think the box art is pretty revealing. Seems like they did purposefully redesign Lelith after all. She is huge:

Tycho wrote:
So out of curiosity, I showed the pics of old and new to Mrs. Tycho to get a woman's perspective (I told her none of my persona; feelings and she saw only the models and not the thread). She said she felt like the old one was Lilith in her early 20's full of life and hope and the new one is her 30/40 years later working as a Waffle House server after her dreams have been crushed. lol

Seriously though, I do wonder about the camera angle/lens combination. There's a fair bit of distortion on some of the newer model shots that surprises me. The original Inceptors come to mind for example. The ones with the "blast shield" down look stupid in real life and the photos, but the orginals looked bad and chunky to me in the pics, and look great IRL so mayber there is some hope.

It's the nasolabial folds (those folds/creases to the sides of the mouth). They become more pronounced with aging in humans. The new Lelith has more pronounced folds, possibly as a result of the painting as well as the facial expression, so she looks older.

 BertBert wrote:
I think the box art is pretty revealing. Seems like they did purposefully redesign Lelith after all. She is huge:

You do know that Eldar and Dark Eldar are like 7 feet tall right? They look gen 1 SM in the eye. I do think it's hilarious that a SoB is holding her arm though. If their book strength is real, then Lelith should be able to literally rip her in half.

They can make her look like an enraged middle aged trailer park meth queen if they want to, if i were a DE player (The LAST 40k army i'd run.) i'd use an older mini or a custom one converted from another female DE.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
I think the box art is pretty revealing. Seems like they did purposefully redesign Lelith after all. She is huge:

You do know that Eldar and Dark Eldar are like 7 feet tall right? They look gen 1 SM in the eye. I do think it's hilarious that a SoB is holding her arm though. If their book strength is real, then Lelith should be able to literally rip her in half.

Yeah I do know that. I also know they aren't twice as wide as a sister in power armour, which is what I was referring to. Seriously, look at those shoulders - she's a straight triangle.

 BertBert wrote:
I think the box art is pretty revealing. Seems like they did purposefully redesign Lelith after all. She is huge:

Hahahahahahahaha, that box art is fething hilarious. I hope the next time they do some art of "The Best Melee Duellist Evar #23282371" space marine character they make art of him getting absolutely styled on by a Skitarii Prime who doesn't even have a melee weapon.

Seriously? This is their box art for "Lelith, the duellist who never gets a single scratch on her"? They show her in a wrist-lock like a fifth grader getting bullied at lunch?

I mean at least it's true to her fething stats, she does an average of like 1.1 wounds to tactical marines in melee and then gets stomped fething flat.

Also keep in mind, time has passed since Lelith declared herself to be free of drugs and such, and we don't know what type of regimins she put herself through.

It may not be drugs, but Astartes and/or Ork souls and/or hormones (which aren't technically drugs) which have given her this extra girth over the years.

As for beauty, that's in the eye of the beholder. Not everyone is after the anorexic or lithe athletic look.

the_scotsman wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
I think the box art is pretty revealing. Seems like they did purposefully redesign Lelith after all. She is huge:

Hahahahahahahaha, that box art is fething hilarious. I hope the next time they do some art of "The Best Melee Duellist Evar #23282371" space marine character they make art of him getting absolutely styled on by a Skitarii Prime who doesn't even have a melee weapon.

Seriously? This is their box art for "Lelith, the duellist who never gets a single scratch on her"? They show her in a wrist-lock like a fifth grader getting bullied at lunch?

I mean at least it's true to her fething stats, she does an average of like 1.1 wounds to tactical marines in melee and then gets stomped fething flat.

Cover art always has to show the imperium's forces holding their own if not completely winning.

For decades 40k has established the eldar as being very slender, but with fine muscle tone. But hey, if it ain't broken gw will retcon it anyway.

(And when one of you gits turns that last line into his sig i want it to be quoted from me.)

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
I think the box art is pretty revealing. Seems like they did purposefully redesign Lelith after all. She is huge:

You do know that Eldar and Dark Eldar are like 7 feet tall right? They look gen 1 SM in the eye. I do think it's hilarious that a SoB is holding her arm though. If their book strength is real, then Lelith should be able to literally rip her in half.

They're tall, but also thin and long-limbed. Lelith in particular is (was? now, if there's a retcon) supposed to be extremely lithe and elegant. Here's a few highlights from the 8th edition codex:

Lelith is grace embodied, her movement hypnotic, sensual and spell binding

flawless form and supernatural human dexterity

Nobody can look at the model or that art and take that impression away. She looks like a female rambo (which is fine in the abstract, but absolutely does not fit the character as she previously was described).

 BertBert wrote:
I think the box art is pretty revealing. Seems like they did purposefully redesign Lelith after all. She is huge:

How is she supposed to have got into that position?

It looks like she started off behind the Sister, but has somehow managed to completely miss her while moving very slowly (judging by the lack of movement in the hair). Her right arm is presumably moving upwards, so the Sister has grabbed it on top, while moving in a lunge and looking past Lelith?

Old Hesperax for me.

For a start...did they just copy and paste the feet from the new Sons of Behemat release and shove them on the new model?

Not a fan...as you may have gathered.

But, if you like the new itteration you go for it me dude.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
I think the box art is pretty revealing. Seems like they did purposefully redesign Lelith after all. She is huge:

How is she supposed to have got into that position?

It looks like she started off behind the Sister, but has somehow managed to completely miss her while moving very slowly (judging by the lack of movement in the hair). Her right arm is presumably moving upwards, so the Sister has grabbed it on top, while moving in a lunge and looking past Lelith?

I see it as Lelith swinging down with her right arm. The Sister dodged the swing and grabbed the arm. That knife looks like a curved single edged knife, so in order to cut it would have to be a downward swing.

Other than them both being S3 on the table top, there is no way the Sister should be able to lock down Lelith's arm. She's as strong as a space marine/ork in the lore, and the sister's arms aren't using the power armor, so she likely dies in the next instant after this one.

Iracundus wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
I think the box art is pretty revealing. Seems like they did purposefully redesign Lelith after all. She is huge:

How is she supposed to have got into that position?

It looks like she started off behind the Sister, but has somehow managed to completely miss her while moving very slowly (judging by the lack of movement in the hair). Her right arm is presumably moving upwards, so the Sister has grabbed it on top, while moving in a lunge and looking past Lelith?

I see it as Lelith swinging down with her right arm. The Sister dodged the swing and grabbed the arm. That knife looks like a curved single edged knife, so in order to cut it would have to be a downward swing.

If Lelith is moving from top left towards the bottom right of the image in a downward swing though, shouldn't her hair be flowing in the opposite direction?

 Lord Damocles wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
I think the box art is pretty revealing. Seems like they did purposefully redesign Lelith after all. She is huge:

How is she supposed to have got into that position?

It looks like she started off behind the Sister, but has somehow managed to completely miss her while moving very slowly (judging by the lack of movement in the hair). Her right arm is presumably moving upwards, so the Sister has grabbed it on top, while moving in a lunge and looking past Lelith?

I see it as Lelith swinging down with her right arm. The Sister dodged the swing and grabbed the arm. That knife looks like a curved single edged knife, so in order to cut it would have to be a downward swing.

If Lelith is moving from top left towards the bottom right of the image in a downward swing though, shouldn't her hair be flowing in the opposite direction?

Looks like she was turning her upper body from right to left as she swung, from looking at the hair.

I personally like the older model. Maybe a 360 view of the new one would change that because the picture looks weird. Also I know 'Eavy Metal paint jobs look awful when it comes to skin.

But holy Gork and Mork the amount of "You only like the old one because you're a creepy neckbeard who wants to drool over women" is silly, and quite frankly a little sad. Don't straw man people. There is nothing wrong with people liking the style of wych elves. Heck, Age of Sigmar has an entire army of it and people love that, but for some reason 40k fans are acting like the actual inquisition.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
and the sister's arms aren't using the power armor

Yeah, and the Sisters lifting heavy bolters and multi meltas like they were made out of paper or firing storm bolters one handed must be just collective imagination or something

 BaconCatBug wrote:
There is a difference between "needless" sexualisation and sexualisation as part of the character and lore of a fictional character.

Lelith very much fits into the latter, since one of the major aspects of her character was her beauty, being an un-scarred Succubus with fighting prowess in the top percentage of Rattata arena fighters. "Beware of an old man in a profession where men usually die young" and all that. I appreciate that GW are stuck between a rock and a hard place, but not sticking to their guns is going to just piss off everyone, since the ones clamouring for GW to capitulate won't ever be happy.

Now, whether this was a conscious decision, a limitation of injection moulding technology, or simply because a change of corporate culture has caused the over-all talent level to drop with their sculptors, we'll never know.

I think what is most disturbing to me of the " She's sexualized reee ! " comments end up being why is that always a bad thing ? Do some people not know people sexualize themselves because they want to ? Men and women if they are good looking, and know it, they often choose to flaunt it, use it as a tool as much as a weapon or their mind. So I always wondered why anyone cared that this vain woman, from an amazingly vain culture, is sexualized and deadly and not shamed of that or off put ? Why would she be ? You step to her, she'll kill you before you realize you made a mistake. They live in an entirely pleasure driven culture to the extreme so of course if she was hot she'd be over the top hot or sexual in it and it wouldn't raise any brows at all there.

If the model was made chunky with a worse face to try and remove that somewhat from the model, that would be super sad. People shouldn't need to be ashamed of being or feeling sexy nor should it be stripped from models that it's well in character for. That would be like making a Helen of Troy figure and making her dumpy with a plain face and totally modest. It just doesn't make any sense and being what you are is not nor has ever been a bad thing. We are all only here because someone found someone else sexy and that may have been by design and aim from both sides.

So if that is why the model is off, that is sad, if its just a limitation with the mold process I guess that's unavoidable but the model feels like a downgrade in looks with an upgrade in material used at least.

 BertBert wrote:
I think the box art is pretty revealing. Seems like they did purposefully redesign Lelith after all. She is huge:

Looking at that picture, I'd swear "Lelith" was originally a male Wych. It seriously looks like there was a last-minute change of plan, and the solution was to just badly photoshop a different head onto the clearly male body.

Hence why it looks like her neck has just snapped.

 vipoid wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
I think the box art is pretty revealing. Seems like they did purposefully redesign Lelith after all. She is huge:

Looking at that picture, I'd swear "Lelith" was originally a male Wych. It seriously looks like there was a last-minute change of plan, and the solution was to just badly photoshop a different head onto the clearly male body.

Hence why it looks like her neck has just snapped.

BY GEORGE I THINK HE'S GOT IT!!!

the_scotsman wrote:

Hahahahahahahaha, that box art is fething hilarious. I hope the next time they do some art of "The Best Melee Duellist Evar #23282371" space marine character they make art of him getting absolutely styled on by a Skitarii Prime who doesn't even have a melee weapon.

Seriously? This is their box art for "Lelith, the duellist who never gets a single scratch on her"? They show her in a wrist-lock like a fifth grader getting bullied at lunch?

I mean at least it's true to her fething stats, she does an average of like 1.1 wounds to tactical marines in melee and then gets stomped fething flat.

They already did, "The Best Melee Duelist Evar" art:

That picture is pretty funny, truth be told.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Other than them both being S3 on the table top, there is no way the Sister should be able to lock down Lelith's arm. She's as strong as a space marine/ork in the lore, and the sister's arms aren't using the power armor, so she likely dies in the next instant after this one.

I'm pretty sure there is literally zero fluff that states Lelith is as strong as a Space Marine, or even an Ork Boy.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Other than them both being S3 on the table top, there is no way the Sister should be able to lock down Lelith's arm. She's as strong as a space marine/ork in the lore, and the sister's arms aren't using the power armor, so she likely dies in the next instant after this one.

I'm pretty sure there is literally zero fluff that states Lelith is as strong as a Space Marine, or even an Ork Boy.

yeah, shes all about precision strikes and speed, not brute force

Yea that art is not of Lelith, no way

I like the old one more. The face and the overdone jumping off a rock thing are what really bother me with the new model.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
I think the box art is pretty revealing. Seems like they did purposefully redesign Lelith after all. She is huge:

You do know that Eldar and Dark Eldar are like 7 feet tall right? They look gen 1 SM in the eye. I do think it's hilarious that a SoB is holding her arm though. If their book strength is real, then Lelith should be able to literally rip her in half.

you mean the sister of battle in strength enhancing power armor? that sister of battle?

 vipoid wrote:


Looking at that picture, I'd swear "Lelith" was originally a male Wych. It seriously looks like there was a last-minute change of plan, and the solution was to just badly photoshop a different head onto the clearly male body.

Hence why it looks like her neck has just snapped.

As far as the artwork is concerned, this might just be it. I can't imagine the sculpt having been shoehorned in, though. I'd like to think designing a character takes months, not to mention the time to get it into production.
Maybe some weird middle ground where Lelith was already in the pipeline but meant to be a single release down the line, and they just bundled her into this box to add some value to it.

 BertBert wrote:

 vipoid wrote:


Looking at that picture, I'd swear "Lelith" was originally a male Wych. It seriously looks like there was a last-minute change of plan, and the solution was to just badly photoshop a different head onto the clearly male body.

Hence why it looks like her neck has just snapped.

As far as the artwork is concerned, this might just be it. I can't imagine the sculpt having been shoehorned in, though. I'd like to think designing a character takes months, not to mention the time to get it into production.
Maybe some weird middle ground where Lelith was already in the pipeline but meant to be a single release down the line, and they just bundled her into this box to add some value to it.

No, this is the same exact sales tactic they used with new jain and drazar. The box is holding the new character hostage, they won't release them as a standalone kit and give you the PRIVILEGE of paying 35$ for them until the box has been the sole way to get them for 3-4 months.

Basically, if a scalper buys the box to split it: GW wins, they basically sold a copy to a store but they didn't have to give a retail discount.

If a player buys the box to use it: GW Wins, they sold a bunch of units they wouldn't otherwise sold and most importantly every extra character they sell is a bump up on a low sales volume piece.

Looks wise?
I prefer the previous version.
Just looked far more gladiatorial and less “generic DE with tall hair”

From a modelling perspective though, the previous one was a pain.
Small metal joins made pinning it an irritating job and even then, it wasn’t an insanely strong join.
The finecast version was better to assemble, but it’s finecast, I needn’t say much more on that.

Old, pretty easily.

- 2 Feet on the base
- Less ridiculous Hair
- Better face

I really hate leaping poses with 1 foot connecting. The old pose was great

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:


They already did, "The Best Melee Duelist Evar" art:

That should be immortalised in a store exclusive model. Absolute classic!

I like to think the Pathfinder has just dropped Nob Strength Acid and is like "Woah, I have hands."

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I like to think the Pathfinder has just dropped Nob Strength Acid and is like "Woah, I have hands."

"Oh no, he's got my gun! Wait, it's okay, I'll just burn his hand away with my laser vision!"

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I like to think the Pathfinder has just dropped Nob Strength Acid and is like "Woah, I have hands."

Meanwhile the Space Wolf is all stern authority figure like "you might want to put that away before someone gets hurt, son"

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I like to think the Pathfinder has just dropped Nob Strength Acid and is like "Woah, I have hands."

All along the watchtower, in the background, as the G.I.Joe in space crashes the party all like “We are responding to a noise complaint, madam... please lower the amplitude of the sonic wave producer. Oooh boi. Look at what we have here... Are these your tabs, Jac-el?”
Another promising life lost to the IoM’s neocolonial war on drug induced galactic conform-or-be-purged parties.

 mokoshkana wrote:
She is powerful now! She’s been murder knows how long? Over time she’d develop muscle. Get on board with it and stop body shaming her

Being ripped to the point of having an extremely defined six pack has nothing to do with power and everything to do with dieting, dehydration and anabolic steroids. MMA fighters are on steroids. Hope I'm not breaking any news here. It's not biologically possible for a human woman to get that big and ripped without drugs. Let alone an elf. This is because naturaly the dieting required to strip the fat, to that extent also depletes the muscles. So they end up looking ripped but skinny. As someone who understands how bodybuilding works the body type in this model makes no sense. Her boobs would have been depleted to nothing as she has the abs of someone who's single digit body fat. Nor would her butt and thighs be that thick.

Lelith Hesperax is meant to be quiet and poker faced by all accounts. This model looks like a raging berserker.
She's also meant to be naturally aspirated. No doping of any kind. Yet her model screams steroid abuse.

I don't think the designer bothered to read her backstory or be told of it. And that the 40k sculptors are so used to marines that the faces and bodies just end up like armourless marines.

Handmaiden wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
She is powerful now! She’s been murder knows how long? Over time she’d develop muscle. Get on board with it and stop body shaming her

Being ripped to the point of having an extremely defined six pack has nothing to do with power and everything to do with dieting, dehydration and anabolic steroids. MMA fighters are on steroids. Hope I'm not breaking any news here. It's not biologically possible for a human woman to get that big and ripped without drugs. Let alone an elf. This is because naturaly the dieting required to strip the fat, to that extent also depletes the muscles. So they end up looking ripped but skinny. As someone who understands how bodybuilding works the body type in this model makes no sense. Her boobs would have been depleted to nothing as she has the abs of someone who's single digit body fat. Nor would her butt and thighs be that thick.

Lelith Hesperax is meant to be quiet and poker faced by all accounts. This model looks like a raging berserker.
She's also meant to be naturally aspirated. No doping of any kind. Yet her model screams steroid abuse.

I don't think the designer bothered to read her backstory or be told of it. And that the 40k sculptors are so used to marines that the faces and bodies just end up like armourless marines.

Please by all means share with us your extensive knowledge of biochemistry in fictional eleven species, lol.

 bullyboy wrote:

Handmaiden wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
She is powerful now! She’s been murder knows how long? Over time she’d develop muscle. Get on board with it and stop body shaming her

Being ripped to the point of having an extremely defined six pack has nothing to do with power and everything to do with dieting, dehydration and anabolic steroids. MMA fighters are on steroids. Hope I'm not breaking any news here. It's not biologically possible for a human woman to get that big and ripped without drugs. Let alone an elf. This is because naturaly the dieting required to strip the fat, to that extent also depletes the muscles. So they end up looking ripped but skinny. As someone who understands how bodybuilding works the body type in this model makes no sense. Her boobs would have been depleted to nothing as she has the abs of someone who's single digit body fat. Nor would her butt and thighs be that thick.

Lelith Hesperax is meant to be quiet and poker faced by all accounts. This model looks like a raging berserker.
She's also meant to be naturally aspirated. No doping of any kind. Yet her model screams steroid abuse.

I don't think the designer bothered to read her backstory or be told of it. And that the 40k sculptors are so used to marines that the faces and bodies just end up like armourless marines.

Please by all means share with us your extensive knowledge of biochemistry in fictional eleven species, lol.

That argument doesnt work, as elves/eldar are less likely and able to put on large amounts of shredded muscle than humans are. You dont see any Catchacan jungle fighter sized Eldar. Not one.

Handmaiden wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
She is powerful now! She’s been murder knows how long? Over time she’d develop muscle. Get on board with it and stop body shaming her

Being ripped to the point of having an extremely defined six pack has nothing to do with power and everything to do with dieting, dehydration and anabolic steroids. MMA fighters are on steroids. Hope I'm not breaking any news here. It's not biologically possible for a human woman to get that big and ripped without drugs. Let alone an elf. This is because naturaly the dieting required to strip the fat, to that extent also depletes the muscles. So they end up looking ripped but skinny. As someone who understands how bodybuilding works the body type in this model makes no sense. Her boobs would have been depleted to nothing as she has the abs of someone who's single digit body fat. Nor would her butt and thighs be that thick.

Lelith Hesperax is meant to be quiet and poker faced by all accounts. This model looks like a raging berserker.
She's also meant to be naturally aspirated. No doping of any kind. Yet her model screams steroid abuse.

I don't think the designer bothered to read her backstory or be told of it. And that the 40k sculptors are so used to marines that the faces and bodies just end up like armourless marines.

We don't see many Aeldari with bare stomachs, but the few we do seem to have one thing in common: Well-defined abdominal muscles. One might think that is the Aeldari norm.

 alextroy wrote:

Handmaiden wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
She is powerful now! She’s been murder knows how long? Over time she’d develop muscle. Get on board with it and stop body shaming her

Being ripped to the point of having an extremely defined six pack has nothing to do with power and everything to do with dieting, dehydration and anabolic steroids. MMA fighters are on steroids. Hope I'm not breaking any news here. It's not biologically possible for a human woman to get that big and ripped without drugs. Let alone an elf. This is because naturaly the dieting required to strip the fat, to that extent also depletes the muscles. So they end up looking ripped but skinny. As someone who understands how bodybuilding works the body type in this model makes no sense. Her boobs would have been depleted to nothing as she has the abs of someone who's single digit body fat. Nor would her butt and thighs be that thick.

Lelith Hesperax is meant to be quiet and poker faced by all accounts. This model looks like a raging berserker.
She's also meant to be naturally aspirated. No doping of any kind. Yet her model screams steroid abuse.

I don't think the designer bothered to read her backstory or be told of it. And that the 40k sculptors are so used to marines that the faces and bodies just end up like armourless marines.

We don't see many Aeldari with bare stomachs, but the few we do seem to have one thing in common: Well-defined abdominal muscles. One might think that is the Aeldari norm.

Yeah, wyches with bare torsos have cut abs. And all the eldar armor has abs on it. Turns out that's just the ab version of boobplate: they all need it just to contain their shredded fething torsos. Otherwise a single flex and blammo, all their abdominal armor suffers devastating structural collapse.

I'm sorry you dont like the canon, but it's not your decision to make. Personally, I'm not interested in this modern SJW agenda to snatch the protein shakes out of my yoked space elves hands because "muh realism real women don't look like that!!!"

the_scotsman wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

Handmaiden wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
She is powerful now! She’s been murder knows how long? Over time she’d develop muscle. Get on board with it and stop body shaming her

Being ripped to the point of having an extremely defined six pack has nothing to do with power and everything to do with dieting, dehydration and anabolic steroids. MMA fighters are on steroids. Hope I'm not breaking any news here. It's not biologically possible for a human woman to get that big and ripped without drugs. Let alone an elf. This is because naturaly the dieting required to strip the fat, to that extent also depletes the muscles. So they end up looking ripped but skinny. As someone who understands how bodybuilding works the body type in this model makes no sense. Her boobs would have been depleted to nothing as she has the abs of someone who's single digit body fat. Nor would her butt and thighs be that thick.

Lelith Hesperax is meant to be quiet and poker faced by all accounts. This model looks like a raging berserker.
She's also meant to be naturally aspirated. No doping of any kind. Yet her model screams steroid abuse.

I don't think the designer bothered to read her backstory or be told of it. And that the 40k sculptors are so used to marines that the faces and bodies just end up like armourless marines.

We don't see many Aeldari with bare stomachs, but the few we do seem to have one thing in common: Well-defined abdominal muscles. One might think that is the Aeldari norm.

Yeah, wyches with bare torsos have cut abs. And all the eldar armor has abs on it. Turns out that's just the ab version of boobplate: they all need it just to contain their shredded fething torsos. Otherwise a single flex and blammo, all their abdominal armor suffers devastating structural collapse.

I'm sorry you dont like the canon, but it's not your decision to make. Personally, I'm not interested in this modern SJW agenda to snatch the protein shakes out of my yoked space elves hands because "muh realism real women don't look like that!!!"

What you did there? I see it

I like the old sculpt better. The new ones toes are wierding me out as they look freekishly hulk like.. dunno I just dont like it.. Also the face looks wierd.

But the odds of getting a the kind of GW website level of model quality of the old model, is low.. relaly low. and you would need veyr good painting skills to turn whatever failcrap turn you recieve into that level of minature.

If I was had a gun to my head and told and was to choose which one I had to buy and paint, I would choose the new platsic one simply coz its plastic..

Yeah, I agree with that. I think there are a few aspects of the new Lelith's pose that I'm not sure sold on (also, like easily over￥4000) but...

...that old mini is a finecast model. And moreover, and Eldar finecast model. And a DARK Eldar finecast model to boot. In my experience, the big, flat, smooth surfaces of a space marine take pretty nicely to finecast, but fiddly detail and thin parts - something DE are usually made up entirely of? That thing is going to be more miscast than solid.

Still, shout out to all the incels and adult perma-virgins in this thread seething about a fictional, alien woman's body. Given me a great chuckle.
Mods, can we have a rule where before you talk gak about how a woman's body is allowed to look, you have to post pics of your own physique or your opinion can just be automatically discounted?

Yeah, they're an Alien...totally comparable to human physiology.


I like both models, so maybe I'm weird.

Handmaiden wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
She is powerful now! She’s been murder knows how long? Over time she’d develop muscle. Get on board with it and stop body shaming her

Being ripped to the point of having an extremely defined six pack has nothing to do with power and everything to do with dieting, dehydration and anabolic steroids. MMA fighters are on steroids. Hope I'm not breaking any news here. It's not biologically possible for a human woman to get that big and ripped without drugs. Let alone an elf. This is because naturaly the dieting required to strip the fat, to that extent also depletes the muscles. So they end up looking ripped but skinny. As someone who understands how bodybuilding works the body type in this model makes no sense. Her boobs would have been depleted to nothing as she has the abs of someone who's single digit body fat. Nor would her butt and thighs be that thick.

Lelith Hesperax is meant to be quiet and poker faced by all accounts. This model looks like a raging berserker.
She's also meant to be naturally aspirated. No doping of any kind. Yet her model screams steroid abuse.

I don't think the designer bothered to read her backstory or be told of it. And that the 40k sculptors are so used to marines that the faces and bodies just end up like armourless marines.

Do you want me to fully go into why you are wrong about this? BTW Sport Scientist, not a bro scientist. It is 100% possible for a woman to have this physique without the use of PED's, it requires a lot of luck, mainly in regards to genetics, but it is possible.

I'm hoping she looks a bit better from other angles, and with a less severely highlit painting style.

 Argive wrote:
I like the old sculpt better. The new ones toes are wierding me out as they look freekishly hulk like.. dunno I just dont like it.. Also the face looks wierd.

But the odds of getting a the kind of GW website level of model quality of the old model, is low.. relaly low. and you would need veyr good painting skills to turn whatever failcrap turn you recieve into that level of minature.

If I was had a gun to my head and told and was to choose which one I had to buy and paint, I would choose the new platsic one simply coz its plastic..

Of course she'd have hulk toes, she is on crazy large amounts of space elf steroids.

That said, the current soon to be replaced model is better and I am very happy to have the metal version of it. So no hulk toes for me.

Edit: I don't really care if she has ripped abs. I just think she looks way too thick for the quicksilver killing machine she's supposed to be. Lovely and deadly, fast and skilled. As was said way down in this thread, probably just a limitation of the medium she has to be as she is. Just think the last model looks much better compared to what they did with this one.

Female speed/power athletes have muscle, quite a bit of it. If we assume that some part of Eldar physiology is similar to the physiology of everything else in the setting e.g. the more powerful/stronger you are, the bigger you are, then she fits in. If she was too small/delicate she wouldn't murder everything in the combat arena, as at some point there would be something bigger and more powerful that would break her bones in one hit.

The idea that women can be fast (and develop sufficient force) to be deadly whilst looking like an anime character is a myth, it does not exist any longer at the elite level of sport, look at female gymnasts, they're some of the 'lightest' athletes on the planet and they do not look like delicate little flowers, they are stacked for their height.



Look at the legs on those sprinters, seem familiar?



Female gymnasts, those are big thighs when you compare to her actual height.

Even CrossFit athletes



The adaptations required dictate the look of the physique, I can guarantee that none of the above athletes, and the vast majority of athletes in that calibre (and Lelith would be an 'elite' athlete in terms of physical ability) are not culturing that aesthetic, the aesthetic is a by product of their sports needs.

If, Eldar physiology is similar to humans, it makes absolute perfect sense that Lelith would look like she does in the new model, that's not to say she doesn't look athletic in the old model either, but her being 'thicc' makes absolute sense, and whilst I'm not some person that really cares about whether a miniature is hot or not, if a woman looked like her in real life, she is absolutely hot, and physically capable.

Handmaiden wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
She is powerful now! She’s been murder knows how long? Over time she’d develop muscle. Get on board with it and stop body shaming her

Being ripped to the point of having an extremely defined six pack has nothing to do with power and everything to do with dieting, dehydration and anabolic steroids. MMA fighters are on steroids. Hope I'm not breaking any news here. It's not biologically possible for a human woman to get that big and ripped without drugs. Let alone an elf. This is because naturaly the dieting required to strip the fat, to that extent also depletes the muscles. So they end up looking ripped but skinny. As someone who understands how bodybuilding works the body type in this model makes no sense. Her boobs would have been depleted to nothing as she has the abs of someone who's single digit body fat. Nor would her butt and thighs be that thick.

Lelith Hesperax is meant to be quiet and poker faced by all accounts. This model looks like a raging berserker.
She's also meant to be naturally aspirated. No doping of any kind. Yet her model screams steroid abuse.

I don't think the designer bothered to read her backstory or be told of it. And that the 40k sculptors are so used to marines that the faces and bodies just end up like armourless marines.

I would like to introduce you to the USWNFT player Tobin "My arms make men cry" Heath. She looks like a reallife Avatar Khorra.



Most of the women in Professional football have 12 pack abs, legs like damn, and arms that make popeye, well, pop eyes. I'd love to watch you tell these women it's impossible to get stupid fit without drugs.

I am wondering tho, why do we even discuss the realism of it when males in the game aren't realistic either (maybe for the neanderthals?).

The previous iteration was better, but it still was kinda meh. The current one has the issue of horrible Studio painting which always makes female models look bad and the silly pointe toes on the foot, which GW loves to use as a visual shortcut for "agile". I don't like it, but it's the perfect fit for 40k where everyone gets hit with ugly beam on birth.

I prefer the old one.

Cronch wrote:
I am wondering tho, why do we even discuss the realism of it when males in the game aren't realistic either (maybe for the neanderthals?).

pssst:

You know the reason why realism always comes up whenever a female model comes out.

We all know the reason why realism always comes up.

You know why nobody complained that the new catachan colonel had a hand the size of his head.or why the supposedly 'unmodified normal human' orlocks all had gigantic barrel chests that the one model who had his shirt open revealed were, in fact, shredded pro wrestler bods.

You also know why this scaling, which is the heroic scaling GW has literally always used since forever, and has only gotten less pronounced as time goes on, only became a problem of realism when they came out with the FW Orlock upgrades that included parts to make female orlocks, who were similarly big and chonky to keep them compatible with the orlock weapon range.

the_scotsman wrote:

Cronch wrote:
I am wondering tho, why do we even discuss the realism of it when males in the game aren't realistic either (maybe for the neanderthals?).

pssst:

You know the reason why realism always comes up whenever a female model comes out.

We all know the reason why realism always comes up.

Pretty much. It's a blatant dogwhistle.

Are you telling me your arms don't come out of the sides of your head like terminators?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Cronch wrote:
I am wondering tho, why do we even discuss the realism of it when males in the game aren't realistic either (maybe for the neanderthals?).

pssst:

You know the reason why realism always comes up whenever a female model comes out.

We all know the reason why realism always comes up.

Pretty much. It's a blatant dogwhistle.

Sounds to me like you're seeing imaginary Boogie-men when people make valid criticisms.

But that image just helps his point?

No matter from what perspective when a female model is released it grabs a ton of attention from everywhere and is analized to the point of people makes "diagrams" to show how Celestine is fat.

When a male model is released at worst you get a "Damm thats a ugly head on that Uriel Ventris"

 Galas wrote:
But that image just helps his point?

No matter from what perspective when a female model is released it grabs a ton of attention from everywhere and is analized to the point of people makes "diagrams" to show how Celestine is fat.

When a male model is released at worst you get a "Damm thats a ugly head on that Uriel Ventris"

Female orlocks are too manly, gang doc is too fat, eschers are too fat, celestine is too fat, repentia are too manly, sisters heads are too ugly, legs on sisters exo-suit are too spindly that was a funny one, female van saar was too manly, ripper jackson is too manly, new lelith is too manly...it's funny how the 'controversies' are just..kinda..the one controversy, really.

And the counter-point is always the Raging Heroes models (except for the fem-marines, they curiously never get brought up)

If you try and bring up toxic representations of masculinity you usually get shouted down by the same people complaining about female representatives not being sexy enough. Weird eh?

What were we talking about again?

 vipoid wrote:
What were we talking about again?

I think it's something to do with new Lelith Hesperax's big feet

That said, the current finecast model looks pretty decent, but when look at from the top also appears to have huge flippers. I'm reserving final judgement till I can see the new version from something other than the one angle.

 vipoid wrote:
What were we talking about again?

How a plastic wardolly is insufficient wankbait, apparently.

They do something wrong with model hair though, and faces. I have a mostly metal army. And I don't know why, somehow the metal faces and hair look better. And it isn't even the lack of weird stuff, they just fit the models better. The plastic models hair look like wigs at best, and like plastic at worse. And I guess it can be made to look good, if you are a master painter, but majority of people are not master painters, and large chunk of people don't even finish painting their armies before they quit.

And some models are just down right ugly. I have no idea who thought it was a good idea to give a cannones the face of Nick Fury.

Aside from pose, they look like basically the same model to me. I need that 'it's the same picture' meme.

Metals are hand sculpted and its super easy to sculpt hair with a putty knife that would play absolute hell with an injection mold. Plastic hair has to just kind of be textured to represent many strands of hair together or else itll inject badly or get stuck in the mold.

There are two kinds of threads for female models:

"Boy wont the woke cancel snowflake sjws be mad about this thing?"

(Then they never are, the boob-plated SoB troop box sold great)

Or

"Thing I like is not sexy enough! Gw has shifted their primary market segment from teenage boys in the 90s and 00s to those same teenage boys now 45 year old men with wives and children and moms of new teenage boys because the boys cant afford the prices anymore! The fraction of those teenage boys who didn't grow up get wives and kids and who wouldn't be embarrassed to buy sexy plastic models is too small to support growth and for some reason this isnt free market capitalism!! Youll see, these less sexy minis will never sell like the pinups from this third party company!"

(Then GW continues to be the most successful miniature company in the world)

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Cronch wrote:
I am wondering tho, why do we even discuss the realism of it when males in the game aren't realistic either (maybe for the neanderthals?).

pssst:

You know the reason why realism always comes up whenever a female model comes out.

We all know the reason why realism always comes up.

Pretty much. It's a blatant dogwhistle.

Sounds to me like you're seeing imaginary Boogie-men when people make valid criticisms.

feth me, I can't believe I'm even responding to this, but a few people have raised the "bu-bu-but muh shredded men..." point.

Look at these two images.

Like, actually look at them.

Now, Barbie has tiny arms, no core muscles, and a thin, weedy neck. A whole host of psychologists and scientists have made countless comments about how unrealistic she is, and how she can (not always, but can) help to create negative self-image in women from a very young age. She's physically diminutive, and those proportions project a caricature of 1950s feminine fragility.
Again, properly contextualized, there is

and I say this as a card-carrying namby pamby pinko commie feminist whatever-other-epithet-you-small-dick-energy-wieners-wanna-chuck-at-me nothing wrong with this if it is properly contextualized, and not the only thing we condition people with.

He man, on the other hand?

Well, those of you with like a roughly 4-year-old's grasp on society, and how humans are socialized, may have noticed holy moly! He-Man isn't wearing much in the way of clothing! How scandalous!

The critical difference, however, is that He-Man is such an unabashed male power fantasy that he fully blasts up the ass of lampoon and pastiche, and out through the other side to po-faced, completely unironic depiction of 80s heavy metal phallic ultramasculinity. He belongs to the same nerdy canon as Warhammer, in terms of portraying male virtues - physical strength, youth, bravery and leadership - in an overblown, fantastic-to-the-point-of-escapist way.

That's not to say that that specific kind of masculinty can't be sexualised. Because we all know that's not true. However, it's not really there to be sexualised, in the first place. Innumerable superheroes are shredded, and wear revealing clothes, mainly just to showcase that they are indeed, shredded as hell, and physically very strong. This is like "show, don't tell" at it's most insultingly simple level.

Just imagine for a second. You're in the pub. Both of these characters walks up to you and calls you a jackass.

How many of you are about to go toe-to-toe with fething He-Man? Sure, he's naked, but I bet He'd curb stop practically any of us pasty nerds in a bar fight.

Now, here's the bit where we're gonna get fething mind-blow-y. So hold on to your fething butts.
I've already given lip service to how, as we all know, the negative impact Barbie can have on young women.

But, what if I told you feminism has literally always said the same thing of male role models? Because it's deadass true.
Male power fantasies such as superheroes have predominantly been marketed towards disempowered males in society - nerds. It's the self-perceived failings of these men, who try to hold themselves to the suffocating standards of contemporary...



...masculinity, and find themselves falling short, that lead them to be so taken up by big manly men, who are powerful, independent, successful, just and influential. Finding He-Man an unrealistic beauty standard is literally the fething same as finding barbie an unrealistic beauty standard. You are emasculated and de-humanized by him, by not being able to be him, in literally the same way as women are de-humanized by barbie, and there are a whole slew of businesses looking to capitalize on that.
And there is nothing wrong with this. This is a symptom of being prayed upon. If you look at an unrealistic depiction of masculinity, and it kinda makes you feel bad about who you are - be it a space marine, He-Man, or Arnold Schwarzenegger - yo, that's because it's kind of designed to do that.



But, the critical difference here, is that while men in these fantasy environments get to be objects of male power fantasy - like I said, courageous, outgoing, physically powerful - while retaining the Barbie body type for female characters, we leave very little space for women to be anything other than dainty, weak, frail and, ultimately, in settings which feature war, and brutal, simplified extrapolations of violent male power, victims.

Now, to get back to the topic in hand?
Lelith is slightly more muscular than, say, your average American woman. Some people

are spitting the dummy over this, for whatever reason.
The rebuttal is that there's no reason 40k can't, or shouldn't have a sort-of-variation on the slender body type, only this time she's done a few more situps. To pull an absolute gibbering gak-show of a counter argument, we have...

...He-Man??? There are already a bunch of different male body types in 40k. To say "every male in 40k looks like He-Man" is such a fething oversimplification. And to say that "He-Man exists, so that proves sexism rubs both ways" is a fething redundant point.
Anyone with any notion of feminism in their brain knows this.
Because patriarchal oppression oppresses everyone, barbies, He-mans, you, me, your dad, everybody.
We're all held to unrealistic standards, and 40k is no different, but trying to cry discrimination because one power fantasy is a fething barely-able-to-stand emaciated sex doll, while the other is a shredded metaphor for just being stronger and more fighty, rather than solely an object of beauty. feth me. I hate the He-Man argument so much. Find me 10 other male characters who wear as little as him.

Putting this thread out of our misery.