Mmmh, it's a purchased upgrade (3.5 meltas), not sure if you realised that. Indifferent about it because it just makes the Riptide even more expensive. I would ignore the Riptide who has it.
Yeah it is expensive but everyone else complains about it.
I am trying to make a point that a lone single unit is really my only issue with the Tau codex, and that nothing in my codex is even comparable.
More survivability and mobility than Abbadon, better firepower than Vindicator and Defiler combined, needs little / no support, ultra long range.
Yet you attack people for pointing this stuff out, and then say they suck at playing a dice game when it is blatantly apparent that these things I pointed out make the Riptide have amazing value for its points cost.
I am sorry for calling you a Tau fanboi, because you are so much worse than that.
Wraithknights, Dreadknights need help making sure they don't get tarpitted.
... And the Riptide doesn't?
Those other units often move up and are much more easy to reach to tarpit.
Riptides sit at the back of the table blasting away.
Much harder to get to, much harder to survive to get to tarpit.
This is what baffles me when people say this; how big is your table that a Riptide can stay really far away? Do you foot slog everything or something?
Anyway, I've never encountered someone in a casual game who does that as most people move them rather close to the enemy.
Standard size table. If I rush directly in a straight line it is still 3+ feet I need to get to at least to make it there. Even using transports it will take 2-3 turns before assault is even possible.
Out of curiosity, the "better firepower than a vindicator and defiler combined"... care to justify that for me.
So we're looking one Str 10 AP1 pie plate, one Str 8 AP3 Pie Plate, a twinlinked lascannon and i think something flame related from the chaos side there?
Compared to EITHER 3 Str 7 shots or 1 pie plate of upto Str 9 AP2, but has gets hot. All at worse BS than your comparative units. (plus 2 plasma shots twinlinked if you're in range)
I get the Riptide is potent, but that example was just wrong.
Melcavuk wrote: Out of curiosity, the "better firepower than a vindicator and defiler combined"... care to justify that for me.
So we're looking one Str 10 AP1 pie plate, one Str 8 AP3 Pie Plate, a twinlinked lascannon and i think something flame related from the chaos side there?
Compared to EITHER 3 Str 7 shots or 1 pie plate of upto Str 9 AP2, but has gets hot. All at worse BS than your comparative units. (plus 2 plasma shots twinlinked if you're in range)
I get the Riptide is potent, but that example was just wrong.
Defiler comes with TL Auto cannon stock.
s8 ap3 LB at BS 3 and 72 inch range (much weaker than s9 ap2) same range and BS stats.
Vindicator needs to be within 24 to fire a "comparable" weapon which is actually s10 ap2, if taken with Demonic possession it is also BS3.
So really you have the range of a Defiler, the kill power of a vindicator (minus 1 strength), with T6 and 5 wounds and a 2+ save and an invlun save.
Str 9 AP2, gets hot, if successfully overcharged on a 3+ otherwise taking a wound. So you're looking at super gets hot, followed by gets hot, followed by BS3 for that blast. Also 185.
Why do people always want to compare Tau with 'bad' codices? They are compared to CSM and BA and people are surprised that Tau win. CSM have their strengths through formations and allies - same as for BA - but Tau don't really have other (yet).
Compare your CSM or BA to SM or SW and then complain about those armies; give Tau a break.
You realize IMO is massive right? and contain multiple lists that go up and down in ranks? several of which would just dominate at least the top 3 before tau.
You have 4 people's opinions and here we have 3 saying that Tau are 5th... You don't really have enough evidence to support your statement.
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Desubot wrote: You realize IMO is massive right? and contain multiple lists that go up and down in ranks? several of which would just dominate at least the top 3 before tau.
Maybe in a world where numbers actually functioned properly you would see based on this small sample size of 7 people, more than 50% would agree with me, which im not counted in this data.
With me it would be 5/8 which would be 62.5% in favour of my statement based on a recent opinion poll.
But hey forget the math and throw it out the window, I am still wrong despite evidence provided even if it is opinion to reinforce a question that has no non-opinion based answer.
Based on everything I've seen here, Tau is perfectly balanced in every way possible based on Tau Math. (TM)
Konrax wrote: Maybe in a world where numbers actually functioned properly you would see based on this small sample size of 7 people, more than 50% would agree with me, which im not counted in this data.
With me it would be 5/8 which would be 62.5% in favour of my statement based on a recent opinion poll.
But hey forget the math and throw it out the window, I am still wrong despite evidence provided even if it is opinion to reinforce a question that has no non-opinion based answer.
Based on everything I've seen here, Tau is perfectly balanced in every way possible based on Tau Math. (TM)
Or these are all opinions and no body is wrong.......
Flyrants need a Malanthrope/Venomthrope or VSG to make sure they aren't alpha striked off the table before they can fly.
Wraithknights, Dreadknights need help making sure they don't get tarpitted.
IKs need AA help (since they have literally no effective AA)
Wave Serpents are the closest to not needing support, but they require taking other units anyway.
Flyrants it's nice to have, not need, not like X points of only flyrants will be alphed that easily by X points of something else.
No, really - if I don't have a 2+ cover or lots of BLOS terrain in my deployment zone I'm guaranteed to lose at least 1 Flyrant, and usually 2, before they can take off against a good shooting list.
IKs: do tell about the awesome AA that an IA Riptide has access to. An IA Riptide needs just as much AA support as a Knight.
I thought we were discussing all Riptides, not just the IA? That's been my goal this entire thread.
Regardless, 3 S7 shots is decent AA, but not amazing. It's significantly more than an IK can do.
Tarpitting(NDK at least): If you've managed to tarpit a NDK between his excellent anti-hirde ranged weapons and the Teleporter then your opponent is doing something wrong.
Incorrect. The NDK has to advance to use his anti-horde weapons. If he uses his Torrent Template weapon he's within assault range. I can't tell you the number of times a Tervigon has kept a DK or two tied up all game by spawning gants.
The NDK moves up to take out one unit and can't assault that turn. Since you're a smart general, you have your tarpit unit in front of your important unit. It loses some dudes to the template and then assaults on your turn. It's not like any MC can just shoot and then jump away OH WAIT THE RIPTIDE CAN.
Konrax wrote: Maybe in a world where numbers actually functioned properly you would see based on this small sample size of 7 people, more than 50% would agree with me, which im not counted in this data.
With me it would be 5/8 which would be 62.5% in favour of my statement based on a recent opinion poll.
But hey forget the math and throw it out the window, I am still wrong despite evidence provided even if it is opinion to reinforce a question that has no non-opinion based answer.
Based on everything I've seen here, Tau is perfectly balanced in every way possible based on Tau Math. (TM)
Or these are all opinions and no body is wrong.......
Agreed.
Can I leave this thread once and for all now please?
SGTPozy wrote: This is what baffles me when people say this; how big is your table that a Riptide can stay really far away? Do you foot slog everything or something?
Most tarpit units have to footslog, yes.
Anyway, I've never encountered someone in a casual game who does that as most people move them rather close to the enemy.
Sure, if your opponent doesn't play well anything could happen. In that case Riptides are undercosted.
This. Although I might flip flop orks and chaos on certain days.
If we broke down IOM though, Knights would be first.
Rank 3
total0 wrote: 1 imperium of man
2 eldars
3 tau
4 chaos
5 necrons
6 orks
7 nids
Taken from a recent post about army strength.
Please note the opinions referred to here have no support / bearing on my opinions and are in no way affiliated with awesauce shark slaying vikings.
Much better! Total 0 approves of this.
Now to my actual opinion. Tau don't need a nerf as such, just alterations such as either a point increase to match how well their units actually do, or a minor stat change on the "broken" options (I'm looking at you hymp and is!)
An army is only cheese if the player makes it, sure tau are still really compettative even if you take lesser units and I can see how that can be a problem. Buuuuut instead of hating the players why not rally and spam GW head office? Viva revolution! And to quote mwg Dave "twin linked abusing fish heads"
Image removed. Don't attach nonwargaming images to Dakka Reds8n
I don't think there has been anyone saying that the IA doesn't deserve a point increase.
What the majority of Tau players are against is changing the base of the Riptide either in points or stats since it would severely hinder the HBC which has proven to be fairly balanced.
Quickjager wrote: I just want the rest of the top 4 codexes updated to 7th already... with how it's going we already KNOW there are going to be nerfs.
Rumours have it that 6th edition codices will not be updated in the foreseeable future... So Necrons will likely be needed but Eldar, SM and IK will still be there (and Tau will become number 4).
Konrax wrote: Maybe in a world where numbers actually functioned properly you would see based on this small sample size of 7 people, more than 50% would agree with me, which im not counted in this data.
With me it would be 5/8 which would be 62.5% in favour of my statement based on a recent opinion poll.
But hey forget the math and throw it out the window, I am still wrong despite evidence provided even if it is opinion to reinforce a question that has no non-opinion based answer.
Based on everything I've seen here, Tau is perfectly balanced in every way possible based on Tau Math. (TM)
You do realize that your argument was 'people rank Tau as either the #1-2 Codex in the game right now' Out of the guys you quoted only 2 list Tau in top 2. So I guess that makes it 2/8, or 25% in favor of your statement.
Also, you cherry-picked 5 guys that seem to agree with you out of a while thread. Without linking the whole thread, that very biased (willingly or not), as there's no way for us to tell if there's 5/6 replies in that thread, or 5/500.
No, really - if I don't have a 2+ cover or lots of BLOS terrain in my deployment zone I'm guaranteed to lose at least 1 Flyrant, and usually 2, before they can take off against a good shooting list.
But once the rest are airborne (you do have more than 1-2 right?) they will wreck face. A Riptide without Markerlight support loses a significant chunk of damage too (via lower BS and not ignoring cover)
rigeld2 wrote: I thought we were discussing all Riptides, not just the IA? That's been my goal this entire thread.
Regardless, 3 S7 shots is decent AA, but not amazing. It's significantly more than an IK can do.
3 S7 shots at BS 3 is decent AA? 1.5 hit on average, resulting in:
0.99 HP/round vs AV 10
0.75 HP/round vs. AV 11
0.5 HP/round vs. AV 12
That's pathetically low to be honest. You're wasting at least half of the game to shoot down one flier with a unit that could be killing tons of other stuff in the meanwhile.
rigeld2 wrote: Incorrect. The NDK has to advance to use his anti-horde weapons. If he uses his Torrent Template weapon he's within assault range. I can't tell you the number of times a Tervigon has kept a DK or two tied up all game by spawning gants.
The NDK moves up to take out one unit and can't assault that turn. Since you're a smart general, you have your tarpit unit in front of your important unit. It loses some dudes to the template and then assaults on your turn. It's not like any MC can just shoot and then jump away OH WAIT THE RIPTIDE CAN.
Heavy Incinerator is Torrent. Aka can be fired safely from outside maximum charge range (18 inches). To reach him with your footslogging tarpitting unit needs to run on first turn and then hope he doesn't move back in turn 2 so you can reach him. Once your tarpitters are out of position chasing him, the NDK can just shont to another side of the board and mind his own business.
No, really - if I don't have a 2+ cover or lots of BLOS terrain in my deployment zone I'm guaranteed to lose at least 1 Flyrant, and usually 2, before they can take off against a good shooting list.
But once the rest are airborne (you do have more than 1-2 right?) they will wreck face. A Riptide without Markerlight support loses a significant chunk of damage too (via lower BS and not ignoring cover)
You're exaggerating the loss one (on average IME) BS has. Most of the time the lights are used to remove cover. Comparing the loss of a BS or two to the loss of 1-2 240 point models is amusing though.
And the statement I was replying to (that you neglected to quote) was "Flyrants it's nice to have, not need, not like X points of only flyrants will be alphed that easily by X points of something else."
It's not "nice to have". It has to be had.
rigeld2 wrote: I thought we were discussing all Riptides, not just the IA? That's been my goal this entire thread.
Regardless, 3 S7 shots is decent AA, but not amazing. It's significantly more than an IK can do.
3 S7 shots at BS 3 is decent AA? 1.5 hit on average, resulting in:
0.99 HP/round vs AV 10
0.75 HP/round vs. AV 11
0.5 HP/round vs. AV 12
That's pathetically low to be honest. You're wasting at least half of the game to shoot down one flier with a unit that could be killing tons of other stuff in the meanwhile.
Assuming you're only ever using the one Riptide sure. But that's stupid and you wouldn't do that.
And you're also concentrating on the IA Riptide, when most people put Skyfire on a Burstide because it's significantly more effective.
It's okay - you can pretend there isn't a 3 man broadside team over there that can throw up dozens of non-skyfire S7 shots to kill flyers.
rigeld2 wrote: Incorrect. The NDK has to advance to use his anti-horde weapons. If he uses his Torrent Template weapon he's within assault range. I can't tell you the number of times a Tervigon has kept a DK or two tied up all game by spawning gants.
The NDK moves up to take out one unit and can't assault that turn. Since you're a smart general, you have your tarpit unit in front of your important unit. It loses some dudes to the template and then assaults on your turn. It's not like any MC can just shoot and then jump away OH WAIT THE RIPTIDE CAN.
Heavy Incinerator is Torrent. Aka can be fired safely from outside maximum charge range (18 inches). To reach him with your footslogging tarpitting unit needs to run on first turn and then hope he doesn't move back in turn 2 so you can reach him. Once your tarpitters are out of position chasing him, the NDK can just shont to another side of the board and mind his own business.
I know it's Torrent - I said as much. If it's fired from that maximum range it might - maybe - hit 2 models. I'll let him kill 2 models.
And no - if he wants to use his Torrent weapon effectively he needs to shunt turn one and then fire. Meaning he's within range to assault.
And in addition - if I force the NDK to shunt away from where my army is I've neutralized him.. Why? Because his maximum range is so short and he can't shoot and then run.
rigeld2 wrote: I thought we were discussing all Riptides, not just the IA? That's been my goal this entire thread.
Regardless, 3 S7 shots is decent AA, but not amazing. It's significantly more than an IK can do.
3 S7 shots at BS 3 is decent AA? 1.5 hit on average, resulting in:
0.99 HP/round vs AV 10
0.75 HP/round vs. AV 11
0.5 HP/round vs. AV 12
That's pathetically low to be honest. You're wasting at least half of the game to shoot down one flier with a unit that could be killing tons of other stuff in the meanwhile.
Assuming you're only ever using the one Riptide sure. But that's stupid and you wouldn't do that.
And you're also concentrating on the IA Riptide, when most people put Skyfire on a Burstide because it's significantly more effective.
It's okay - you can pretend there isn't a 3 man broadside team over there that can throw up dozens of non-skyfire S7 shots to kill flyers.
So, you say 3 S7 shots is decent AA. Someone says it isn't.
You respond by saying it's perfectly fine as long as you have a bunch of other AA or take the other gun for AA.
Moving the goal post, a bit aren't we?
rigeld2 wrote: I thought we were discussing all Riptides, not just the IA? That's been my goal this entire thread.
Regardless, 3 S7 shots is decent AA, but not amazing. It's significantly more than an IK can do.
3 S7 shots at BS 3 is decent AA? 1.5 hit on average, resulting in:
0.99 HP/round vs AV 10
0.75 HP/round vs. AV 11
0.5 HP/round vs. AV 12
That's pathetically low to be honest. You're wasting at least half of the game to shoot down one flier with a unit that could be killing tons of other stuff in the meanwhile.
Assuming you're only ever using the one Riptide sure. But that's stupid and you wouldn't do that.
And you're also concentrating on the IA Riptide, when most people put Skyfire on a Burstide because it's significantly more effective.
It's okay - you can pretend there isn't a 3 man broadside team over there that can throw up dozens of non-skyfire S7 shots to kill flyers.
So, you say 3 S7 shots is decent AA. Someone says it isn't.
You respond by saying it's perfectly fine as long as you have a bunch of other AA or take the other gun for AA.
Moving the goal post, a bit aren't we?
Can we say the following instead?
Tau as an army do not have many issues dealing with fliers. This is not true for all armies, and many have to use allies or attempt to ignore them.
In general they seem to be weakening fliers (if the necron codex weakens them too I won't care that SW can't deal with them) but for some armies they can be a real problem depending on your build.
rigeld2 wrote: I thought we were discussing all Riptides, not just the IA? That's been my goal this entire thread.
Regardless, 3 S7 shots is decent AA, but not amazing. It's significantly more than an IK can do.
3 S7 shots at BS 3 is decent AA? 1.5 hit on average, resulting in:
0.99 HP/round vs AV 10
0.75 HP/round vs. AV 11
0.5 HP/round vs. AV 12
That's pathetically low to be honest. You're wasting at least half of the game to shoot down one flier with a unit that could be killing tons of other stuff in the meanwhile.
Assuming you're only ever using the one Riptide sure. But that's stupid and you wouldn't do that.
And you're also concentrating on the IA Riptide, when most people put Skyfire on a Burstide because it's significantly more effective.
It's okay - you can pretend there isn't a 3 man broadside team over there that can throw up dozens of non-skyfire S7 shots to kill flyers.
So, you say 3 S7 shots is decent AA. Someone says it isn't.
You respond by saying it's perfectly fine as long as you have a bunch of other AA or take the other gun for AA.
Moving the goal post, a bit aren't we?
No. It's decent AA and I stand by that. It's more than some armies have, similar to what a lot of others have (comparing to the quad gun).
And again - he's ignoring the Burstide (my original post didn't exclude it, he did). But that doesn't help you prove your point.
Goal posts haven't moved.
Regardless, 3 S7 shots is decent AA, but not amazing. It's significantly more than an IK can do.
rigeld2 wrote: he's ignoring the Burstide (my original post didn't exclude it, he did).
Your original post was about 3 S7 shots on their own. I'm not saying Tau don't have access to AA, but what you're arguing isn't what you're saying.
If I said I can toss a brick and destroy a tank, then someone explains how tanks tend to be harder than bricks, I can't answer that he's ignoring that I would have strapped a few pounds of thermite and high explosives to it first.
The ONLY point I was trying to make was that you went from saying 3 S7 shots is decent AA to Tau have decent AA.
SGTPozy wrote: Why do people always want to compare Tau with 'bad' codices? They are compared to CSM and BA and people are surprised that Tau win. CSM have their strengths through formations and allies - same as for BA - but Tau don't really have other (yet).
Compare your CSM or BA to SM or SW and then complain about those armies; give Tau a break.
Tau will get a break when I get a break from playing them.
rigeld2 wrote: I thought we were discussing all Riptides, not just the IA? That's been my goal this entire thread.
Regardless, 3 S7 shots is decent AA, but not amazing. It's significantly more than an IK can do.
3 S7 shots at BS 3 is decent AA? 1.5 hit on average, resulting in:
0.99 HP/round vs AV 10
0.75 HP/round vs. AV 11
0.5 HP/round vs. AV 12
That's pathetically low to be honest. You're wasting at least half of the game to shoot down one flier with a unit that could be killing tons of other stuff in the meanwhile.
Assuming you're only ever using the one Riptide sure. But that's stupid and you wouldn't do that.
And you're also concentrating on the IA Riptide, when most people put Skyfire on a Burstide because it's significantly more effective.
It's okay - you can pretend there isn't a 3 man broadside team over there that can throw up dozens of non-skyfire S7 shots to kill flyers.
So, you say 3 S7 shots is decent AA. Someone says it isn't.
You respond by saying it's perfectly fine as long as you have a bunch of other AA or take the other gun for AA.
Moving the goal post, a bit aren't we?
No. It's decent AA and I stand by that. It's more than some armies have, similar to what a lot of others have (comparing to the quad gun).
And again - he's ignoring the Burstide (my original post didn't exclude it, he did). But that doesn't help you prove your point.
Goal posts haven't moved.
Let's rephrase: you said Riptide needs no support and works just fine on it's own, right?
Since a non-Schrödinger's Riptide can't field both IA and HBC at the same time:
-How does a IA Riptide deal with Air and heavy AV unsupported?
-How does a HBC Riptide deal with heavy AV and large amounts of MEQs and TEQs (maybe even in Drop Pods)?
Unless your argument was 'if you field a HBC Riptide and an IA Riptide you can deal with everything but since they're both riptides it counts as Riptide can deal with everything' ?
SGTPozy wrote: Why do people always want to compare Tau with 'bad' codices? They are compared to CSM and BA and people are surprised that Tau win. CSM have their strengths through formations and allies - same as for BA - but Tau don't really have other (yet).
Compare your CSM or BA to SM or SW and then complain about those armies; give Tau a break.
Tau will get a break when I get a break from playing them.
The point of this game is to build interesting lists that build strength from synergising with other units to boost their effectiveness. Then using said list to the best of your abilities using tactics to execute said combinations as effectively as possible given the scenario of the game.
The Riptide bypasses all of that and is just flat out amazing in every way and doesn't need help from anything to be effective. You might argue
This assertion is based on what exactly?
I'd argue the contrary since most good units need just as little support (or less) than riptides. What kind of support do Flyrants, Wraithknights, Nemesis Dreadknights, Imperial Knights, etc. need? Not even going to menyion Wave Serpents.
The point of this game is to build interesting lists that build strength from synergising with other units to boost their effectiveness. Then using said list to the best of your abilities using tactics to execute said combinations as effectively as possible given the scenario of the game.
The Riptide bypasses all of that and is just flat out amazing in every way and doesn't need help from anything to be effective. You might argue
This assertion is based on what exactly?
I'd argue the contrary since most good units need just as little support (or less) than riptides. What kind of support do Flyrants, Wraithknights, Nemesis Dreadknights, Imperial Knights, etc. need? Not even going to menyion Wave Serpents.
Flyrants need a Malanthrope/Venomthrope or VSG to make sure they aren't alpha striked off the table before they can fly.
Wraithknights, Dreadknights need help making sure they don't get tarpitted. IKs need AA help (since they have literally no effective AA) Wave Serpents are the closest to not needing support, but they require taking other units anyway.
And then you decided to challenge my statements by singling out the IA riptide.
Flyrants need a Malanthrope/Venomthrope or VSG to make sure they aren't alpha striked off the table before they can fly.
Wraithknights, Dreadknights need help making sure they don't get tarpitted. IKs need AA help (since they have literally no effective AA) Wave Serpents are the closest to not needing support, but they require taking other units anyway.
Flyrants it's nice to have, not need, not like X points of only flyrants will be alphed that easily by X points of something else. IKs: do tell about the awesome AA that an IA Riptide has access to. An IA Riptide needs just as much AA support as a Knight. Tarpitting(NDK at least): If you've managed to tarpit a NDK between his excellent anti-hirde ranged weapons and the Teleporter then your opponent is doing something wrong.
Please actually follow the conversation you began and you've been involved in. Or, to prove your point, show the S7 shots a Knight can throw at the air. As a reminder, Heavy Stubbers are S4. If a Riptide needs, quote, "just as much AA support" then it obviously can't contribute at all except against AV10, right? Oh, you proved that's incorrect. Therefore proving your statement incorrect. Thanks!
Savageconvoy wrote:Your original post was about 3 S7 shots on their own.
No, it wasn't. I said it was decent (it is) and it's more than IKs have (significantly more)
I'm not saying Tau don't have access to AA, but what you're arguing isn't what you're saying. If I said I can toss a brick and destroy a tank, then someone explains how tanks tend to be harder than bricks, I can't answer that he's ignoring that I would have strapped a few pounds of thermite and high explosives to it first.
Perhaps follow the conversation and then you'll understand. I spoilered it for you.
The ONLY point I was trying to make was that you went from saying 3 S7 shots is decent AA to Tau have decent AA.
No, I haven't changed. 3 S7 shots is decent AA. It's not amazing. It can do work in a pinch. It's not something you can ignore. Which is exactly what you're trying to do.
LordBlades wrote:Let's rephrase: you said Riptide needs no support and works just fine on it's own, right?
Um. No?
My bad there, and I apologize. Konrax said 'The Riptide bypasses all of that and is just flat out amazing in every way and doesn't need help from anything to be effective.' and you picked up the discussion so fast that I didn't notice it was another person, sorry
rigeld2 wrote: Please actually follow the conversation you began and you've been involved in.
Or, to prove your point, show the S7 shots a Knight can throw at the air. As a reminder, Heavy Stubbers are S4. If a Riptide needs, quote, "just as much AA support" then it obviously can't contribute at all except against AV10, right?
Oh, you proved that's incorrect. Therefore proving your statement incorrect. Thanks!
Cerastus Knight Castigator: S7 AP3, Heavy 8, Twin-linked. It lands about 2.6 shots per round vs anti air, which is better than IA Riptide, even weighed per point.
rigeld2 wrote: No, I haven't changed. 3 S7 shots is decent AA. It's not amazing. It can do work in a pinch. It's not something you can ignore. Which is exactly what you're trying to do.
I'm having a hard time to think of moments in the game where it would be more productive to have an IA Riptide shoot 3-4 turns to down a Scythe or Storm Talon for example rather than spend those 3-4 turns decimating ground forces with s8/9 AP2 pie plates.
rigeld2 wrote: Please actually follow the conversation you began and you've been involved in.
Or, to prove your point, show the S7 shots a Knight can throw at the air. As a reminder, Heavy Stubbers are S4. If a Riptide needs, quote, "just as much AA support" then it obviously can't contribute at all except against AV10, right?
Oh, you proved that's incorrect. Therefore proving your statement incorrect. Thanks!
Cerastus Knight Castigator: S7 AP3, Heavy 8, Twin-linked. It lands about 2.6 shots per round vs anti air, which is better than IA Riptide, even weighed per point.
Sorry - I'm not familiar with the forgeworld Knights, just the codex ones. Heavy 8 TL is actually 2.4 hit snap shooting.
Velocity Tracker is Skyfire, right? So IA + VT + FNP is 240 points. 2.4/1.5 is 1.6 - so the Castigator needs to cost 384 points to make him equivalent to a Riptide.
He costs 380. Close enough. I have no idea how the FW riptides stack up AA wise, so I'll give that one to you.
rigeld2 wrote: No, I haven't changed. 3 S7 shots is decent AA. It's not amazing. It can do work in a pinch. It's not something you can ignore. Which is exactly what you're trying to do.
I'm having a hard time to think of moments in the game where it would be more productive to have an IA Riptide shoot 3-4 turns to down a Scythe or Storm Talon for example rather than spend those 3-4 turns decimating ground forces with s8/9 AP2 pie plates.
Wait - so decent anti air isn't as good as amazing anti-ground? Who woulda thunk it?
My point wasn't that it was great AA and you should always use it and if you don't you're silly. It's that the option exists and a general who refuses to acknowledge it as an option is foolish.
My point wasn't that it was great AA and you should always use it and if you don't you're silly. It's that the option exists and a general who refuses to acknowledge it as an option is foolish.
Of course.
My point is that, in order to get that 'decent anti-air' on an IA Riptide you'd have to use one support system slot for the Skyfire subsystem and drop one of the far superior IMOFnP and Interceptor subsystem.
I really can't imagine a circumstance where I would do that:
If I don't know what I'm fighting FnP and Interceptor on IA Riptide makes more sense
If I know I'm against a flier heavy list, HBC instead of IA and Skyfire makes more sense.
"Why are all Riptides IA or HBC? With the effectiveness of a HBC tide against air, doesn't it make sense to run 1+ IA tides and 1 Burst tide? "
This is how I would use Tau, but I keep seeing triple IA. All the players quit using CSM, and so there is no air that Tau care about. Stormravens are too overcosted to threaten a tight Tau list.
Martel732 wrote: Stormravens are too overcosted to threaten a tight Tau list.
Honest question.... Do you think the Blood Angels formation changes this? Specifically the one which allows for assault from deep strike. Somehow storm ravens factor in. I can get more details if you don't know about it.
Martel732 wrote: "Why are all Riptides IA or HBC? With the effectiveness of a HBC tide against air, doesn't it make sense to run 1+ IA tides and 1 Burst tide? "
This is how I would use Tau, but I keep seeing triple IA. All the players quit using CSM, and so there is no air that Tau care about. Stormravens are too overcosted to threaten a tight Tau list.
It changes things if you list tailor for the Tau, I'll admit. However, it goes back to my problem with the Tau. It's hard to game for Tau AND SW AND grav cents AND Tyranids, etc. It's not that I can't deal with Riptides ever, it's that my TAC lists can't handle them, because they have to deal with things other than Riptides and the Tau scheme in general.
That BA formation is the ultimate hail mary. It will crush some lists, but against lists the BA don't want to close with, it is worse than useless.
SO - I've been reading aaaaaall of this, been making some posts and nothing really happens beside discussing the Riptide which, to be fair, is completely valid and very important, but now we have up to 25 pages of discussion, and that gotta do. Only Go- I mean Games Workshop can help it now.
Let's shift focus then, to other nerfable stuff that might, might not need it.
The High Yield Missile Pod, then. Oh dear, this thing. Aside from the Riptide w/ IA, this is the most polarizing thing ever. For those of us who don't remember what it does, it's S 7, AP 4 Heavy 4 36'', Twinlinked from being doubled, which doesn't sound so bad on paper, but is filthy destruction against anything that looks even remotely like a light tank, or, Tau'va forbid, a transport. On top of that, compared to the S 8 AP 1 Heavy 1 60'', Twinlinked of the standard Heavy Rail Rifle, it costs almost nothing to switch for, outclassing it rather dramatically.
What I think would be best to do is to give it a simple price jack. It's on a 2+ T4 W 1 model, so it's not all that resistant to enemy fire, so pooling points in a squad of three of these would be rather expensive. You could also reduce the range to 24'', which I honestly feel the Missile Pod should be as well... I mean, in the codex it's described as being a "close quarter firefight weapon"
The HYMP is double the amount of shots of a standard MP, so how's that bad? If it were any less shots then it would be stupid.
Why do you want to nerf the Tau equivalent to the autocannon to 24"? If you want to nerf our range then we need to nerf the Imperial one first! 48" is too much for them!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyway, just because you want to move on it doesn't mean that the rest of us do.
SGTPozy wrote: The HYMP is double the amount of shots of a standard MP, so how's that bad?
It's the cost that's the issue really. Currently 2 twin-linked missile pods run about 40 points. The rest of the Broadside's cost would go into paying for a 2+ 2W model with SMS.
The decision to give Broadsides a single shot Railgun at S8 was idiotic when they gave it an alternate weapon at -1S but 4x the shot output. Of course they did though, so everyone would buy the new Broadsides.
I don't know a suggestion for the HYMP other than raising it's cost and maybe forcing it to purchase VT along with it.
HRR could be made Rapid Fire 48" with same stats. Makes it more mobile and increases number of shots when moving down range.
SGTPozy wrote: The HYMP is double the amount of shots of a standard MP, so how's that bad? If it were any less shots then it would be stupid.
High Yield doesn't have to mean double. It could be 3 and still fulfill the name.
Why do you want to nerf the Tau equivalent to the autocannon to 24"? If you want to nerf our range then we need to nerf the Imperial one first! 48" is too much for them!
When the IoM can field 6 TL autocannons per heavy support slot, we'll talk.
It's not "the Tau equivalent to the autocannon". It's a Heavy 4 (double an autocannon) weapon for 65 points. Plus the SMS.
Martel732 wrote: "Why are all Riptides IA or HBC? With the effectiveness of a HBC tide against air, doesn't it make sense to run 1+ IA tides and 1 Burst tide? "
This is how I would use Tau, but I keep seeing triple IA. All the players quit using CSM, and so there is no air that Tau care about. Stormravens are too overcosted to threaten a tight Tau list.
So no FMC builds in your area?
I think there is only one Tyranid guy, and maybe two demon players. But the demons have to land to assault now, which is doom against Tau.
SGTPozy wrote: The HYMP is double the amount of shots of a standard MP, so how's that bad? If it were any less shots then it would be stupid.
High Yield doesn't have to mean double. It could be 3 and still fulfill the name.
Why do you want to nerf the Tau equivalent to the autocannon to 24"? If you want to nerf our range then we need to nerf the Imperial one first! 48" is too much for them!
When the IoM can field 6 TL autocannons per heavy support slot, we'll talk.
It's not "the Tau equivalent to the autocannon". It's a Heavy 4 (double an autocannon) weapon for 65 points. Plus the SMS.
You misunderstood, when I said that it was the Tau autocannon I was talking about the standard missile pod (as it was suggested that that should also be needed for some reason).
Yes, but 1 more isn't exactly a big difference so it doesn't deserve the word 'high yield'.
You can do that with your elites slot (3 rifleman dreads) and IG heavy weapons teams (but these would mean prescience is needed for the twin linked, but you can have 15 autocannons per troop choice; that's pretty cheesy.
It's the cost that's the issue really. Currently 2 twin-linked missile pods run about 40 points.
Yes, they do cost 40 points but do you know what else costs 40 points? The grav cannon with grav amp. The grav cannon is far superior so nerf that and then we'll talk about nerfing Tau (other than the IA).
SGTPozy wrote: The HYMP is double the amount of shots of a standard MP, so how's that bad? If it were any less shots then it would be stupid.
High Yield doesn't have to mean double. It could be 3 and still fulfill the name.
Why do you want to nerf the Tau equivalent to the autocannon to 24"? If you want to nerf our range then we need to nerf the Imperial one first! 48" is too much for them!
When the IoM can field 6 TL autocannons per heavy support slot, we'll talk.
It's not "the Tau equivalent to the autocannon". It's a Heavy 4 (double an autocannon) weapon for 65 points. Plus the SMS.
You misunderstood, when I said that it was the Tau autocannon I was talking about the standard missile pod (as it was suggested that that should also be needed for some reason).
Yes, but 1 more isn't exactly a big difference so it doesn't deserve the word 'high yield'.
You can do that with your elites slot (3 rifleman dreads) and IG heavy weapons teams (but these would mean prescience is needed for the twin linked, but you can have 15 autocannons per troop choice; that's pretty cheesy.
It's the cost that's the issue really. Currently 2 twin-linked missile pods run about 40 points.
Yes, they do cost 40 points but do you know what else costs 40 points? The grav cannon with grav amp. The grav cannon is far superior so nerf that and then we'll talk about nerfing Tau (other than the IA).
Just to clear up, I mentioned that I'd like the range reduced, but that that was a personal opinion - I don't think it'll happen, and I'll be good if it don't
Now, I see what your point it here, but the problem that this way of arguming presents is that you compare units that aren''t completely similar. Yes, most SM armies can have 3 Riflemen in an Elite slot, which yields 12 twinlinked shots at 48'' a turn with BS 4, but, first of all, these things can move and fire, and they are also vehicles, and secondly, you can only ever take three in one Detatchment. Tau Empire armies can take 3x3 Broadsides w/ HYMPS per Detatchments - That's 36 twinlinked missiles at 36'' and BS 3... And sure, this is fething expensive, but so are a lot of things - What makes them game-breaking is that, combined with Markerlights and the like, they can easily hit with every single shot every time. That's a whole load of diddly.
When I say "reduce range", that wasn't meant as an attack. You are really on the barricades here, defending anything and everything Tau, which is fine, but problem is that you defend things that other people feel should be nerfed - Nerf doesn't mean that we want to reduce it to nought, but that we want it balanced, so it will be as effective as it's supposed to be, while being balanced with the rest of the codex. We're not trying to rob you of anything, we are trying to help you here. Think of my idea of reducing range: Instead of defending it by comparing it to other armies and keeping everything as-is, you could think about the possibilities of that nerf - If that happened, the Broadsides could, e.g. be made Relentless again, to make them more mobile, as is the Tau way, which means that the unit will now not just be "sit here and shoot" but "advance under cover, so you can fire your deadly HYMPs at some sucker".
Just remove marker lights ability to reduce cover save and increase the base cost of the riptide to reflect it's durability, increase a few weapons cost as well...namely HYMP and IA...there...balanced.
Now, I see what your point it here, but the problem that this way of arguming presents is that you compare units that aren''t completely similar. Yes, most SM armies can have 3 Riflemen in an Elite slot, which yields 12 twinlinked shots at 48'' a turn with BS 4, but, first of all, these things can move and fire, and they are also vehicles, and secondly, you can only ever take three in one Detatchment. Tau Empire armies can take 3x3 Broadsides w/ HYMPS per Detatchments - That's 36 twinlinked missiles at 36'' and BS 3... And sure, this is fething expensive, but so are a lot of things - What makes them game-breaking is that, combined with Markerlights and the like, they can easily hit with every single shot every time. That's a whole load of diddly.
What about something more similar then: Centurions.
Also 2W, 2+ armor save, 1 more T than Broadsides (T5 vs. T4).
How would Grav-cannon Centurions (80 points) stack vs HYMP Broadsides (65 points base cost without any support systems)?
EDIT: I can't really comment on it since none of the SM players in my local meta use them, so I've never seen one in actions. I do know grav-guns in general hurt though
Xenomancers wrote: Just remove marker lights ability to reduce cover save
Yeah. Remove one of the staples and iconic features of Tau. This is a terrible idea. It wasn't a problem in the past codex, but apparently it's bad now.
Xenomancers wrote: Just remove marker lights ability to reduce cover save
Yeah. Remove one of the staples and iconic features of Tau. This is a terrible idea. It wasn't a problem in the past codex, but apparently it's bad now.
Yeah, because literally nothing changed between the two codexes. At all.
I don't think it should be removed, but 2 markerlights for Ignores Cover is too cheap. It should be 1 ML for -1 cover save like it used to be.
Xenomancers wrote: Just remove marker lights ability to reduce cover save
Yeah. Remove one of the staples and iconic features of Tau. This is a terrible idea. It wasn't a problem in the past codex, but apparently it's bad now.
Yeah, because literally nothing changed between the two codexes. At all.
I don't think it should be removed, but 2 markerlights for Ignores Cover is too cheap. It should be 1 ML for -1 cover save like it used to be.
In all honesty, how hard is it to kill Pathfinders?
Tau Marker-lights are on exceedingly fragile platforms, unlike other races' Ignore Cover' which is on the unit itself.
1 Token per -1 cover save IS bad vs Jinking skimmers or ruin hugging anything; it's a 50% increase in needed tokens vs. the most common cover situations in the game. If something is too good you don't nerf it by 50% in a single sweep.
The markerlights were 1 Token per -1 Cover in the last codex, and how bad was Tau with the last codex? I wasn't playing back then but either my google-fu is failing me or there really have been very few good things said about the previous Tau codex.
Xenomancers wrote: Just remove marker lights ability to reduce cover save and increase the base cost of the riptide to reflect it's durability, increase a few weapons cost as well...namely HYMP and IA...there...balanced.
That's what I said pages ago, but no one wants to hear this.
Xenomancers wrote: Just remove marker lights ability to reduce cover save and increase the base cost of the riptide to reflect it's durability, increase a few weapons cost as well...namely HYMP and IA...there...balanced.
That's what I said pages ago, but no one wants to hear this.
If these changes came through, what exactly would Tau have that couldn't be replicated in a strictly better version by IoM (mainly AM with Knights) ?
LordBlades wrote: In all honesty, how hard is it to kill Pathfinders?
It depends. They have a 4+ cover save any time I shoot at them so...
Tau Marker-lights are on exceedingly fragile platforms, unlike other races' Ignore Cover' which is on the unit itself.
That's only relevant if the "other races'" Ignore Cover is worth taking. For Tau everything can Ignore Cover.
If Tau's Ignore Cover was both fragile and bad (1 Token per -1 cover save IS bad vs Jinking skimmers or ruin hugging anything; it's a 50% increase in needed tokens vs. the most common cover situations in the game) that would be an overnerf IMO.
I'm sorry, how is picking any unit in your codex and giving it Ignores Cover bad again? Even at 3 markerlights for a 4+ save (which is far from the "most common" cover situation) it's good. 2 ignores a 5+ which is the actual most common cover save - and would be no different to current.
The main difference is that Shroud is still a useful SR, and Jink would, I dunno, mean something.
If something is too good you don't nerf it by 50% in a single sweep.
Um. You do if it's twice as powerful as it should be.
Xenomancers wrote: Just remove marker lights ability to reduce cover save and increase the base cost of the riptide to reflect it's durability, increase a few weapons cost as well...namely HYMP and IA...there...balanced.
That's what I said pages ago, but no one wants to hear this.
If these changes came through, what exactly would Tau have that couldn't be replicated in a strictly better version by IoM (mainly AM with Knights) ?
The ability to pick which units ignore cover on a turn by turn basis.
It depends. They have a 4+ cover save any time I shoot at them so...
Even so, it's a 1W T3 unit with a 4+ save. If you can't kill that kind of unit reliably, maybe it's time to rethink your list a bit (if the PF go to ground it's still a win since they can't effectively use Markerlights).
rigeld2 wrote: That's only relevant if the "other races'" Ignore Cover is worth taking. For Tau everything can Ignore Cover.
True, but most other races that have Ignore Cover worth taking have it on way more durable platforms than Pathfinders.
rigeld2 wrote: 2 ignores a 5+ which is the actual most common cover save - and would be no different to current..
So somehow the Pathfinders you play against have above average cover at any time?
rigeld2 wrote: Um. You do if it's twice as powerful as it should be.
This still needs to be proven in any meaningful way.
rigeld2 wrote: The ability to pick which units ignore cover on a turn by turn basis.
The guy I was replying to said 'remove marker lights ability to reduce cover save' (not reduce, but remove).
Xenomancers wrote: Just remove marker lights ability to reduce cover save and increase the base cost of the riptide to reflect it's durability, increase a few weapons cost as well...namely HYMP and IA...there...balanced.
That's what I said pages ago, but no one wants to hear this.
If these changes came through, what exactly would Tau have that couldn't be replicated in a strictly better version by IoM (mainly AM with Knights) ?
Humm...I think they have way better suicide squads...sometimes a farsight bomb kills EVERYTHING it shoots at and it's not longer a suicide squad...it's a game winner. Fire warriors are probably the best troop in the game ill go as far as to say they are the best troops in the game point for point. Fusion guns on stealth units. Super over watch. Better overall firepower. Shooting units while remaining out of line of site JSJ.
It depends. They have a 4+ cover save any time I shoot at them so...
Even so, it's a 1W T3 unit with a 4+ save. If you can't kill that kind of unit reliably, maybe it's time to rethink your list a bit (if the PF go to ground it's still a win since they can't effectively use Markerlights).
T3 vs S6 means 84% chance to wound. I have a (66% chance, twin linked) 88% chance to hit. So I need just over two shots per model for a Flyrant. Against a 6 man pathfinder squad, to make sure I kill it, it takes 2 Flyrants (480 points of firepower).
You have 2 Pathfinder units? Oops. It's unlikely I can kill both on my turn.
Tetras? Those are actually harder to kill, but easier to make Jink.
rigeld2 wrote: That's only relevant if the "other races'" Ignore Cover is worth taking. For Tau everything can Ignore Cover.
True, but most other races that have Ignore Cover worth taking have it on way more durable platforms than Pathfinders.
That's the sacrifice you make for the flexibility that comes from having Ignores Cover on literally every unit in your codex.
rigeld2 wrote: 2 ignores a 5+ which is the actual most common cover save - and would be no different to current..
So somehow the Pathfinders you play against have above average cover at any time?
Yes. It's common to have a Ruin in each deployment zone, it's not common for Ruins to be scattered all over the battlefield.
rigeld2 wrote: Um. You do if it's twice as powerful as it should be.
This still needs to be proven in any meaningful way.
It needs to be proven that the ability to have Ignores Cover on literally any unit in your codex, your decision, isn't that powerful.
I think the best way to need Tau is to make psychic powers not random. Let's be honest Tau are the odd one out in this edition. We're the only army that gets psychic effects without the random psychicness. If other armies could pick their powers I bet things would seem more level.
Still get sick of all the Tau hate.
Broadsides need a nerf at 65 points each but centurions that are 80 points each with T+1 and salvo 3/5 Ap2 weapons and can move with no loss in effectiveness are alright? They also have another weapon.
I said it before I'll say it again. Double standards.
Boniface wrote: I think the best way to need Tau is to make psychic powers not random. Let's be honest Tau are the odd one out in this edition. We're the only army that gets psychic effects without the random psychicness. If other armies could pick their powers I bet things would seem more level.
Still get sick of all the Tau hate.
Broadsides need a nerf at 65 points each but centurions that are 80 points each with T+1 and salvo 3/5 Ap2 weapons and can move with no loss in effectiveness are alright? They also have another weapon.
I said it before I'll say it again. Double standards.
Broadsides have 2 weapons as well. Broadsides and Centurions compare very well to one another - but Broadsides are significantly cheaper. It's not a double standard.
Xenomancers wrote: Just remove marker lights ability to reduce cover save and increase the base cost of the riptide to reflect it's durability, increase a few weapons cost as well...namely HYMP and IA...there...balanced.
That's what I said pages ago, but no one wants to hear this.
If these changes came through, what exactly would Tau have that couldn't be replicated in a strictly better version by IoM (mainly AM with Knights) ?
Humm...I think they have way better suicide squads...sometimes a farsight bomb kills EVERYTHING it shoots at and it's not longer a suicide squad...it's a game winner. Fire warriors are probably the best troop in the game ill go as far as to say they are the best troops in the game point for point. Fusion guns on stealth units. Super over watch. Better overall firepower. Shooting units while remaining out of line of site JSJ.
Small point, it's only one fusion for every three suits (a maximum of 2, so only one will hit), and stealthsuits are outrageously over-costed.
Boniface wrote: I think the best way to need Tau is to make psychic powers not random. Let's be honest Tau are the odd one out in this edition. We're the only army that gets psychic effects without the random psychicness. If other armies could pick their powers I bet things would seem more level.
Still get sick of all the Tau hate.
Broadsides need a nerf at 65 points each but centurions that are 80 points each with T+1 and salvo 3/5 Ap2 weapons and can move with no loss in effectiveness are alright? They also have another weapon.
I said it before I'll say it again. Double standards.
Broadsides have 2 weapons as well. Broadsides and Centurions compare very well to one another - but Broadsides are significantly cheaper. It's not a double standard.
15 points is significant when one gets 15 ap2 and shots and can move?
I'm more referring to the people suggesting the broadside be nerfed.
Boniface wrote: I think the best way to need Tau is to make psychic powers not random. Let's be honest Tau are the odd one out in this edition. We're the only army that gets psychic effects without the random psychicness. If other armies could pick their powers I bet things would seem more level.
Still get sick of all the Tau hate.
Broadsides need a nerf at 65 points each but centurions that are 80 points each with T+1 and salvo 3/5 Ap2 weapons and can move with no loss in effectiveness are alright? They also have another weapon.
I said it before I'll say it again. Double standards.
Broadsides have 2 weapons as well. Broadsides and Centurions compare very well to one another - but Broadsides are significantly cheaper. It's not a double standard.
15 points is significant when one gets 15 ap2 and shots and can move?
I'm more referring to the people suggesting the broadside be nerfed.
Yes, 15 points is significant. 15 points is 18.75% of the cost of the Centurion.
Centurions can't Overwatch. Broadsides get special Overwatch (their buddies can help, and they can help buddies).
Broadsides get 4 S7 shots and 4 S5 shots each. Centurions get 5 S* shots and 3 S5 shots each.
For the price difference I can add a Missile Drone and a Bonding Knife so that's 6 S7 shots and 4 S5 (homing, ignores cover) shots.
Here is the problem with Tau and in general with the current state of 40k. The importance of an alpha strike in combination with the way fire power has been scaling in conjunction with the last three editions swinging further and further towards shooting has left us in a place where high strength, low AP, high range shooting is the king of the game. Now what does Tau have in spades? High strength, low AP, high range shooting. People keep saying, "How hard is it to kill a group of pathfinders?" Well, usually it is two groups of pathfinders that are going to be sitting in some kind of cover. On top of that most armies are going to have a couple of long range weapons that might put the hurt on the pathfinders, but they might not, it is rather hit or miss. If the Tau player has first turn though...well it is likely that they will eliminate anything first turn that can threaten those pathfinders because they almost always have the means with their long range, ability to ignore cover, and all of their other little tricks. There are ways to balance this out but it is usually by means of building the proper table as opposed to the proper list.
It is wrong that against certain armies I have to rely more on the table than I do my list, that is not the fault of Tau but it is the game that we play and the reality we deal with when playing it. This is not okay and can lead to resentment towards people who play Tau. Tau players, you have to accept that for what ever reason you chose, you are playing an army that excels in the current edition and has an answer for almost everything. The Tau codex has so many exceedingly good choices that some Tau players claim that their worst units are "unusable." We have a Tau player who claims that Stealth Suits, Vespids, Kroot, Hammerheads, etc. are all useless and that they are some of the worst units in the game. If you agree with this sentiment I implore you to go look at some other codices to see what TRULY awful units look like. The worst thing the Tau codex has to offer is still on par with some other codices best units, that is extremely irritating for people who play those other races and see all of the amazing toys that Tau have when they get scraps comparably.
I could go on and on but I know that anyone who doesn't agree with what I said isn't likely to be changed by anything I have to say, that's fine, that is their prerogative and they have every right to disagree. I am not out to change anyone's mind. I just want some people to maybe realize that their disdain for Tau could better be directed towards the game of 40k itself, which doesn't excuse the imbalance but it's not the fault of Tau players for playing their army. Tau players, you need to realize that you chose a powerful army that isn't very fun to play against for a lot of people. Of course there is going to be a feeling of hostility towards you when you are playing one of the most powerful armies out there that can effectively win a game without the opponent getting a chance to even respond. This is partial your codices fault, partial the games fault, and more than likely a misunderstanding of the expectations you and your opponent went into the game with.
I had a Tau army, started it in 4th because I loved the look of Fire Warriors. I hated the battle suits except the stealth suits, so I built an army of almost all infantry and tanks, was great fun but I never went to far into the competitive territory so I just played with what ever models I liked at the time. Played them a little in 5th but mostly fixated on my Tyranids because I had fun playing them more than I did Tau. When Tau got their 6th update I pulled out my old army and played a grand total of THREE games before I decided I wanted nothing to do with them. My games went from fun and casual with friends to me just stomping all over them with superior range and fire power. The best thing I ever did with Tau was trade them for a Sisters army that is now one of my favorite armies to play.
Do I think Tau need some nerfs? Yes. The Riptide is a monstrosity for how many points it is. Most units are built around the trinity of speed, power, and defense, and they are typically weak in one area while strong in others or they are strong in all but cost a lot of points, like a Land Raider. The Riptide is a front runner in each and every category while still being a bargain for how many points it cost. It is silly with the IA and even with the HBC it is still a steal, all it loses is a bit of its offensive power but it is still fast and hard as hell to kill. I strongly believe a rather stiff point increase or a 0-1 restriction would help the game out immensely as a whole. Marker lights give to much of a bonus for how easy they are to field. HYMP on broadsides are just so damn shooty for what range they have and how much hurt they can put out, plus they can be buffed up with marker lights.
Tau aren't the strongest army out there but outside of a couple of unique list and Eldar they are probably the least fun to play because of their ability to alpha strike from across the board with almost everything in their army. Taking such heavy loses in the first turn can just cripple and army while at the same time making your opponent just feel like giving up and that is why Tau get so much hate.
The Wise Dane wrote: You are really on the barricades here, defending anything and everything Tau, .
I do not defend "anything and everything Tau", I have often said (not here though) that the IA should be ap3 and nova charge should make it ap2 since why is it ap2 when the ion cannon is ap3? That doesn't make sense to me.
I have also said that the nova shield should be a 4++.
HYMP should cost 10 points.
Markerlights should reduce 1 point of cover for each token.
What I do not like though is when Tau haters come along and demand that everything that makes Tau different should be removed/nerfed into the ground just because they dislike something about them. Finally, Tau haters always create massive double standards.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Boniface wrote: Let's be honest Tau are the odd one out in this edition. We're the only army that gets psychic effects without the random psychicness.
Not true, IG have orders and psykers but are they considers to be cheesy? Nope. Even with the abomination that is the Wyvern.
Boniface wrote: I think the best way to need Tau is to make psychic powers not random. Let's be honest Tau are the odd one out in this edition. We're the only army that gets psychic effects without the random psychicness. If other armies could pick their powers I bet things would seem more level.
Still get sick of all the Tau hate.
Broadsides need a nerf at 65 points each but centurions that are 80 points each with T+1 and salvo 3/5 Ap2 weapons and can move with no loss in effectiveness are alright? They also have another weapon.
I said it before I'll say it again. Double standards.
Broadsides have 2 weapons as well. Broadsides and Centurions compare very well to one another - but Broadsides are significantly cheaper. It's not a double standard.
15 points is significant when one gets 15 ap2 and shots and can move?
I'm more referring to the people suggesting the broadside be nerfed.
Yes, 15 points is significant. 15 points is 18.75% of the cost of the Centurion.
Centurions can't Overwatch. Broadsides get special Overwatch (their buddies can help, and they can help buddies).
Broadsides get 4 S7 shots and 4 S5 shots each. Centurions get 5 S* shots and 3 S5 shots each.
For the price difference I can add a Missile Drone and a Bonding Knife so that's 6 S7 shots and 4 S5 (homing, ignores cover) shots.
As I said, they compare favorably.
I'd happily pay 15 points to give my broadsides +1T and slow and purposeful.
Yes, 15 points is significant. 15 points is 18.75% of the cost of the Centurion.
Centurions can't Overwatch. Broadsides get special Overwatch (their buddies can help, and they can help buddies).
Broadsides get 4 S7 shots and 4 S5 shots each. Centurions get 5 S* shots and 3 S5 shots each.
For the price difference I can add a Missile Drone and a Bonding Knife so that's 6 S7 shots and 4 S5 (homing, ignores cover) shots.
As I said, they compare favorably.
I'd happily pay 15 points to give my broadsides +1T and slow and purposeful.
Avoiding ID at S8 and being able to move and shoot are huge bonuses on their own.
I do agree that the HYMP needs a tweak and the HRR needs a buff.
In all honesty I really feel that Broadsides need the T5 and relentless treatment and the weapons can get fixed accordingly. For a model that size it really should be tougher than a SM.
Xenomancers wrote: Just remove marker lights ability to reduce cover save and increase the base cost of the riptide to reflect it's durability, increase a few weapons cost as well...namely HYMP and IA...there...balanced.
-So lets get rid of one of the few things that make Tau unique? Seriously maybe people should just learn to kill T3 and T4 models with at best a 4+ save, or is that to difficult? Every army has access to things that ignore cover and a fact that is continuously overlooked is the cost of Marker Light wielding units and their general fragility. They do not need to be changed.
-Base cost of the Riptide does NOT need to change, its perfectly fine for what you get. Increase the points cost of the Ion Accelerator and that would be perfectly fine, if the Riptides base cost really needs to increase then so does the Dreadknights because it just as durable.
-As mentioned the cost of the Ion Accelerator needs to go up and in regards to the High Yield Missile Pods the same argument can be made to a certain degree. Maybe a small points increase (10pts. per Broadside minimum) would be satisfactory but if they do that then they either need to bring back the S10 Railgun on the Broadsides or make them T5 and Relentless.
For Tau players. It's too mobile and too tough at the same time for the cost. It needs a modest cost increase and the IA needs a huge cost increase or a ban hammer.
Dreadnight is significantly less durable than a Riptide. Please get real. The math has been done to death.
For Tau players. It's too mobile and too tough at the same time for the cost. It needs a modest cost increase and the IA needs a huge cost increase or a ban hammer.
Dreadnight is significantly less durable than a Riptide. Please get real. The math has been done to death.
It is not less durable at all, it only has x1 less wound then the Riptide. Other then that its a lot cheaper, hits harder, is MUCH more maneuverable and has access to Psychic powers. If the Riptide needs a "cost increase" and changes to its weapons then the Dreadknight certainly does to.
Which it makes up for being able to move a reliable 12 inches a turn and a 30 inch "shunt" move to close the distance along with it having an Instant Death weapon thanks to its Psychic powers.
For Tau players. It's too mobile and too tough at the same time for the cost. It needs a modest cost increase and the IA needs a huge cost increase or a ban hammer.
Dreadnight is significantly less durable than a Riptide. Please get real. The math has been done to death.
It is not less durable at all, it only has x1 less wound then the Riptide. Other then that its a lot cheaper, hits harder, is MUCH more maneuverable and has access to Psychic powers. If the Riptide needs a "cost increase" and changes to its weapons then the Dreadknight certainly does to.
It's weapon systems are a joke compared to the Riptide. And going from 3++ FNP vs AP 2 fire to 4++ is a huge downgrade.
Which it makes up for being able to move a reliable 12 inches a turn and a 30 inch "shunt" move to close the distance along with it having an Instant Death weapon thanks to its Psychic powers.
All my guys have one wound anyway, so why should I care about ID?
It's also a beast in close combat, rather than a liability. You throw a five man squad of marines at a Riptide, and worse case scenario, you tie it up for several rounds at it might kill one a turn. Best case scenario you cause a wound to the riptide, it loses combat, and you run it down and kill it, because it's got average leadership, lacks fearless, and has a crap initiative.
You do the same thing to a Dreadknight, and it will devour them and continue fighting.
It's also a beast in close combat, rather than a liability. You throw a five man squad of marines at a Riptide, and worse case scenario, you tie it up for several rounds at it might kill one a turn. Best case scenario you cause a wound to the riptide, it loses combat, and you run it down and kill it, because it's got average leadership, lacks fearless, and has a crap initiative.
You do the same thing to a Dreadknight, and it will devour them and continue fighting.
How do you get a five man squad of marines TO a Riptide? What Riptide commander is going to allow themselves to be assaulted? My BA rarely allow themselves to be assaulted and Riptides are EVEN faster. Sure, I guess the BA can pay a *1000* pt tax for the privilege of having their tac marines get stepped on by Riptides on turn 1.
It's weapon systems are a joke compared to the Riptide.
It's weapons are actually pretty good for several roles, but it also has a much higher CC ability than the Riptide.
It's short range is also mitigated by the fact that it can move forward at a decent rate and it isn't entirely afraid to get into CC like a Riptide.
It's weapon systems are a joke compared to the Riptide.
It's weapons are actually pretty good for several roles, but it also has a much higher CC ability than the Riptide.
It's short range is also mitigated by the fact that it can move forward at a decent rate and it isn't entirely afraid to get into CC like a Riptide.
I don't care about CC ability. Something with CC ability allows me to still move and try to play my game. They can't point at me from 36"+ and tell me to pick up entire squads with no saves, no cover. As I said, it's weapon systems are a total joke for its points.
Martel732 wrote: My BA rarely allow themselves to be assaulted and Riptides are EVEN faster. Sure, I guess the BA can pay a *1000* pt tax for the privilege of having their tac marines get stepped on by Riptides on turn 1.
Haven't we already gone over this? YOUR BA are a subpar codex and you play at the absolute worst boards for them and the absolute best for Tau.
Are you still going on about how you want Tau to be so bad that they are an autolose to lower tier armies with all conditions in their favor?
It's weapon systems are a joke compared to the Riptide.
It's weapons are actually pretty good for several roles, but it also has a much higher CC ability than the Riptide.
It's short range is also mitigated by the fact that it can move forward at a decent rate and it isn't entirely afraid to get into CC like a Riptide.
I don't care about CC ability. Something with CC ability allows me to still move and try to play my game. They can't point at me from 36"+ and tell me to pick up entire squads with no saves, no cover. As I said, it's weapon systems are a total joke for its points.
Then instead of constantly complaining on how your Blood Angels are outclassed (I believe it was pointed out earlier in this thread that there are certain problems with your list along with terrain ect.) try and find some things that do work? You could easily add in some Grey Knights and convert some awesome looking models which would fit the Blood Angel look, could try Drop Pods, ect.
Martel732 wrote: My BA rarely allow themselves to be assaulted and Riptides are EVEN faster. Sure, I guess the BA can pay a *1000* pt tax for the privilege of having their tac marines get stepped on by Riptides on turn 1.
Haven't we already gone over this? YOUR BA are a subpar codex and you play at the absolute worst boards for them and the absolute best for Tau.
Are you still going on about how you want Tau to be so bad that they are an autolose to lower tier armies with all conditions in their favor?
No. That's not what I'm saying at all. And I think you know it. I'm just disagreeing with your assessment of Dreadknights vs Riptides. Riptides cause way, way more casualties than Dreadknights. How can they not? They start in from much further away and there is practically no way to silence them at range.
It's weapon systems are a joke compared to the Riptide.
It's weapons are actually pretty good for several roles, but it also has a much higher CC ability than the Riptide.
It's short range is also mitigated by the fact that it can move forward at a decent rate and it isn't entirely afraid to get into CC like a Riptide.
I don't care about CC ability. Something with CC ability allows me to still move and try to play my game. They can't point at me from 36"+ and tell me to pick up entire squads with no saves, no cover. As I said, it's weapon systems are a total joke for its points.
Then instead of constantly complaining on how your Blood Angels are outclassed (I believe it was pointed out earlier in this thread that there are certain problems with your list along with terrain ect.) try and find some things that do work? You could easily add in some Grey Knights and convert some awesome looking models which would fit the Blood Angel look, could try Drop Pods, ect.
Riptides can vaporize at lot more than BA squads. This isn't a BA thing. I watch them do this to many, many lists.
I'm still waiting to hear how 4++ is better than 3++ w/FNP. And the 4++ model has pretty gimpy firepower.
"certain problems with your list"
I don't recall that. Only everyone thinking a couple of boxes would be a panacea. I'm still thinking I'll just be vaporized one turn later after I come out from behind the box.
That's nice, but it doesn't matter what you do or don't care about. CC has an offensive/defensive affect to the unit.
As I said, it's weapon systems are a total joke for its points.
Can you quote a single person that said the IA is fine as it is? Can you? Just a few? Maybe one?
WE KNOW! We've been trying to tell you that for a while.
You would rather have a fix that ruins the HBC as well as the IA than try and fix the IA itself.
I can't think of a single Tau player that has posted in this thread that doesn't agree that the IA needs a fix. But somehow you keep insisting that the HBC variant should be BAD as well.
Martel732 wrote: I just think the base chasis with no weapon at all should cost more.
Then you want the HBC nerfed since it's going to cost more for the same gun.
Which is weird that you mentioned removing gets hot from it and I think you insisted gets hot on 2+ and potential FNP was irrelevant.
Which would lead to the conclusion that suggesting a price increase and an irrelevant buff would have the end result be a nerf.
Martel732 wrote: I just think the base chasis with no weapon at all should cost more.
Then you want the HBC nerfed since it's going to cost more for the same gun.
Which is weird that you mentioned removing gets hot from it and I think you insisted gets hot on 2+ and potential FNP was irrelevant.
Which would lead to the conclusion that suggesting a price increase and an irrelevant buff would have the end result be a nerf.
I was just trying to address that issue that some people brought up. I'd be fine with increasing the ROF on it as well. I think the ROF on GW's multibarrel weapons is far too low.
Riptides can vaporize at lot more than BA squads. This isn't a BA thing. I watch them do this to many, many lists.
I'm still waiting to hear how 4++ is better than 3++ w/FNP. And the 4++ model has pretty gimpy firepower.
"certain problems with your list"
I don't recall that. Only everyone thinking a couple of boxes would be a panacea. I'm still thinking I'll just be vaporized one turn later after I come out from behind the box.
-Only if you are not hugging cover or as you mentioned previously a lack of terrain on your tables.
-Also once AGAIN the 3++ is not AUTOMATIC unlike your 2+ 4+ save which is and there is no risk to hurting yourself.
Also in regards to your claims that "Riptides always kill more then Dreadknights" is completely false. Your Flame template for example will slaughter Fire Warriors and any other armies infantry, especially those that do not have a 3+ save more reliable then a template that can gets hot and scatters. That is an army dependent claim you made and therefore is not entirely accurate, it depends on the army your facing.
"Please tell me what can kill a Dreadknight so easily while a HBC Riptide is invulnerable?"
Not easily, but the same kinds of weapons drop them much faster because half the wounds get though instead of just 22%. Plus dreadknights love to move themselves into plasma double tap range and grav range. While Riptides constantly run away and can't be caught while decimating your units.
Riptides can vaporize at lot more than BA squads. This isn't a BA thing. I watch them do this to many, many lists.
I'm still waiting to hear how 4++ is better than 3++ w/FNP. And the 4++ model has pretty gimpy firepower.
"certain problems with your list"
I don't recall that. Only everyone thinking a couple of boxes would be a panacea. I'm still thinking I'll just be vaporized one turn later after I come out from behind the box.
-Only if you are not hugging cover or as you mentioned previously a lack of terrain on your tables.
-Also once AGAIN the 3++ is not AUTOMATIC unlike your 2+ 4+ save which is and there is no risk to hurting yourself.
Also in regards to your claims that "Riptides always kill more then Dreadknights" is completely false. Your Flame template for example will slaughter Fire Warriors and any other armies infantry, especially those that do not have a 3+ save more reliable then a template that can gets hot and scatters. That is an army dependent claim you made and therefore is not entirely accurate, it depends on the army your facing.
So it's just gonna shunt up and flame some fire warriors and put itself within plasma/fusion range of the whole list? Good plan. But it sure showed those fire warriors with that flamer, let me tell you.
"Also once AGAIN the 3++ is not AUTOMATIC unlike your 2+ 4+ save which is and there is no risk to hurting yourself. "
Martel732 wrote: "Please tell me what can kill a Dreadknight so easily while a HBC Riptide is invulnerable?"
Not easily, but the same kinds of weapons drop them much faster because half the wounds get though instead of just 22%. Plus dreadknights love to move themselves into plasma double tap range and grav range. While Riptides constantly run away and can't be caught while decimating your units.
Either your playing on boards that are to big or are just utilizing poor tactics, it is not impossible to get to a Riptide with either kind of weapon, especially with certain armies such as Drop Pods and Bikes. And again you are basing this off of the 3++ save being an automatic thing which it ISNT. Failing 1/3 of the time with no saves outside of a FNP happens a lot more then you think. And that's fine, a Dreadknight moves into said double tap range, gets off its psychic power and can Instant Death an entire squad with its Pscilencer on top of flaming them with its incinerator on top of being that it can then wreck things in CC.
Martel732 wrote: "Please tell me what can kill a Dreadknight so easily while a HBC Riptide is invulnerable?"
Not easily, but the same kinds of weapons drop them much faster because half the wounds get though instead of just 22%. Plus dreadknights love to move themselves into plasma double tap range and grav range. While Riptides constantly run away and can't be caught while decimating your units.
Either your playing on boards that are to big or are just utilizing poor tactics, it is not impossible to get to a Riptide with either kind of weapon, especially with certain armies such as Drop Pods and Bikes. And again you are basing this off of the 3++ save being an automatic thing which it ISNT. Failing 1/3 of the time with no saves outside of a FNP happens a lot more then you think. And that's fine, a Dreadknight moves into said double tap range, gets off its psychic power and can Instant Death an entire squad with its Pscilencer on top of flaming them with its incinerator on top of being that it can then wreck things in CC.
Get riptides within 24" of plasma guns, sure. 12"? Only vs a paste-eating Tau commander.
I already addressed the save thing. 5+/FNP is still better than 4++. And I don't count the pitiful chance to get a wound through the 2+/FNP from the gets hot as anything to be counted on in a game.
4++? Wth are you guys talking about? It's 5++ THEN with a psychic phase it is 4++, maybe.
EDIT: Whoawhoawhoa, did you just say Psilencer? Are you kidding me mate? And Instant deathing a whole squad... you know ID doesn't matter with 1 wound right?
Sorry,the last GK I played must have still been on the 5th ed codex. It's only got a 5++? Uhh, that's not a problem at all. It is still T7? Not that that really matters.
Quickjager wrote: 4++? Wth are you guys talking about? It's 5++ THEN with a psychic phase it is 4++, maybe.
EDIT: Whoawhoawhoa, did you just say Psilencer? Are you kidding me mate? And Instant deathing a whole squad... you know ID doesn't matter with 1 wound right?
I do, I should have made it clear that it was in regards to Multi-Wound units. And it doesn't matter, if he is going to continuously bring up a random 3++ then I am going to bring up a random potential chance of a 4++ (which is much more reliable to get off btw).
Quickjager wrote: 4++? Wth are you guys talking about? It's 5++ THEN with a psychic phase it is 4++, maybe.
EDIT: Whoawhoawhoa, did you just say Psilencer? Are you kidding me mate? And Instant deathing a whole squad... you know ID doesn't matter with 1 wound right?
I do, I should have made it clear that it was in regards to Multi-Wound units. And it doesn't matter, if he is going to continuously bring up a random 3++ then I am going to bring up a random potential chance of a 4++ (which is much more reliable to get off btw).
So you aren't debating in good faith. Most turns, a Riptide will have a 3++. This is not true of a Dreadknight and 4++, evidently. And the base Riptide save is still better than 4++, which is the best the Dreadknight can get.
Martel732 wrote: Sorry,the last GK I played must have still been on the 5th ed codex. It's only got a 5++? Uhh, that's not a problem at all. It is still T7? Not that that really matters.
It didn't matter. I still mercilessly killed the thing. Too much melta/plasma for it to handle, even at 4++. I've never killed a Riptide so easily. Ever.
Quickjager wrote: 4++? Wth are you guys talking about? It's 5++ THEN with a psychic phase it is 4++, maybe.
EDIT: Whoawhoawhoa, did you just say Psilencer? Are you kidding me mate? And Instant deathing a whole squad... you know ID doesn't matter with 1 wound right?
I do, I should have made it clear that it was in regards to Multi-Wound units. And it doesn't matter, if he is going to continuously bring up a random 3++ then I am going to bring up a random potential chance of a 4++ (which is much more reliable to get off btw).
So you aren't debating in good faith. Most turns, a Riptide will have a 3++. This is not true of a Dreadknight and 4++, evidently. And the base Riptide save is still better than 4++, which is the best the Dreadknight can get.
I am debating in good faith sir as I am still making an accurate point which to me personally appears to be a double standard. Most turns a Dreadknight will have a 4+ as it is only the Psilencer that gets instant death and it if it doesn't have it then it will be going for the beefed up invulnerable save. and the base Riptide save is the SAME as the Dreadknight as both have a 2+ 5+ and are Toughness 6.
Quickjager wrote: 4++? Wth are you guys talking about? It's 5++ THEN with a psychic phase it is 4++, maybe.
EDIT: Whoawhoawhoa, did you just say Psilencer? Are you kidding me mate? And Instant deathing a whole squad... you know ID doesn't matter with 1 wound right?
I do, I should have made it clear that it was in regards to Multi-Wound units. And it doesn't matter, if he is going to continuously bring up a random 3++ then I am going to bring up a random potential chance of a 4++ (which is much more reliable to get off btw).
So you aren't debating in good faith. Most turns, a Riptide will have a 3++. This is not true of a Dreadknight and 4++, evidently. And the base Riptide save is still better than 4++, which is the best the Dreadknight can get.
I am debating in good faith sir as I am still making an accurate point which to me personally appears to be a double standard. Most turns a Dreadknight will have a 4+ as it is only the Psilencer that gets instant death and it if it doesn't have it then it will be going for the beefed up invulnerable save. and the base Riptide save is the SAME as the Dreadknight as both have a 2+ 5+ and are Toughness 6.
The Dreadknight doesn't have access to FNP at all; and doesn't have access to any significant ranged weaponry. That makes a huge difference. It can shunt itself into trouble. Yippee.
Only if your not being tactically smart with it and its not always into "trouble" as you so put it. You can easily take x3 of them and have all x3 of them Shunt forward on one flank and obliterate it. Also being close means it puts them in optimal range for Close Combat which they are nasty in, being close isn't always bad as long as you know how to do it right, that comes down to tactics.
Quickjager wrote: 4++? Wth are you guys talking about? It's 5++ THEN with a psychic phase it is 4++, maybe.
EDIT: Whoawhoawhoa, did you just say Psilencer? Are you kidding me mate? And Instant deathing a whole squad... you know ID doesn't matter with 1 wound right?
I do, I should have made it clear that it was in regards to Multi-Wound units. And it doesn't matter, if he is going to continuously bring up a random 3++ then I am going to bring up a random potential chance of a 4++ (which is much more reliable to get off btw).
So you aren't debating in good faith. Most turns, a Riptide will have a 3++. This is not true of a Dreadknight and 4++, evidently. And the base Riptide save is still better than 4++, which is the best the Dreadknight can get.
The fact that an IA Riptide can afford to.nova for 3++ often is a fault of the IA (it's overcharged profile is too good). An HBC Riptide needs to nova for the gun (more than 50% increase in damage potential), otherwise 8 s6 shots is pathetic for a 235 points model (HBC riptide with VT and Stims).
You're also greatly undervaluing the Dreadknight's utility in IDing multiwound models (on a 12 shot weapon). 7th edition is most definitely not about how many 1w infantry you put on the table, but about how many big things you put on the table. A significant amount of those big things are multi-wound MCs.
Ultimately, how do you think a Riptide fares across the table from a Dreadknight?
To the people saying that the Draedknight always moves into 'trouble'... What are you worried about? If it is Plasma, that will be1, 2 or 3 rapid fire shots (depending on whether they are on tactical marines, cheese wolves or IG vets) they have to hit on a 3+, then wound on a 3+. I highly doubt that the Dreadknight will lose 4 wounds.
When that Dreadknight survives it will kick ass again with its OP guns and its cheesy CC abilities.
Also, if you shunt your Dreadknight in front of some plasma guys you are a massive dumbass. A GK player shunted in front of my buffmander in dual plasma crisis squad and complained that he died but what did he expect?
Dreadknights are cheesy as they are superior to Tyranid MCs in all aspects: CC, psychic abilities, maneuvability, shooting.
Just a point I think is important to remember - the arguement that some people make is, that if the Riptide is to be nerfed at the core, then the Dreadknight should be too, as they are very similar and can do the same thing, save the CC abilities.
Thing is, if that's really the argument that we go for, then someone must be nerfed first, for any change to happen. In this case, the Riptide is the one that's most likely to get it's nerf first, as it's the oldest of the two codexes, and therefor the one that will recieve changes first. So, if the point is that both should be nerfed, then the Riptide would be the one to get the nerf first.
So maybe we shouldn't use the Dreadknight at all as a comparison to the Riptide, because, if we go with the idea that both needs nerfs, then the Riptide has to go first, and then show what should be nerfed about the Dreadknight when it gets it's next update.
So maybe we should just forget the Dreadknight for the time being, and look at the Riptide as is, in concert with its army and against other armies.
The point they are trying to get throgh is not that dreadknights need to be nerfed-but that the riptide is not anything special in his preformance, and as such needs no nerf (assuming HBC, I'm starting to feel dumbed down that I have to mention this in every single post.)
The Wise Dane wrote: Just a point I think is important to remember - the arguement that some people make is, that if the Riptide is to be nerfed at the core, then the Dreadknight should be too, as they are very similar and can do the same thing, save the CC abilities.
Thing is, if that's really the argument that we go for, then someone must be nerfed first, for any change to happen. In this case, the Riptide is the one that's most likely to get it's nerf first, as it's the oldest of the two codexes, and therefor the one that will recieve changes first. So, if the point is that both should be nerfed, then the Riptide would be the one to get the nerf first.
So maybe we shouldn't use the Dreadknight at all as a comparison to the Riptide, because, if we go with the idea that both needs nerfs, then the Riptide has to go first, and then show what should be nerfed about the Dreadknight when it gets it's next update.
So maybe we should just forget the Dreadknight for the time being, and look at the Riptide as is, in concert with its army and against other armies.
Or we could look at it from another angle: Dreadknight is the most recently released all out combat MC. As such it represents the most up to date standard of what the designers intend a combat MC to do. Therefore everything else should be buffed or nerfed as needed to be on par with the Dreadknight.
The Wise Dane wrote: Just a point I think is important to remember - the arguement that some people make is, that if the Riptide is to be nerfed at the core, then the Dreadknight should be too, as they are very similar and can do the same thing, save the CC abilities.
Thing is, if that's really the argument that we go for, then someone must be nerfed first, for any change to happen. In this case, the Riptide is the one that's most likely to get it's nerf first, as it's the oldest of the two codexes, and therefor the one that will recieve changes first. So, if the point is that both should be nerfed, then the Riptide would be the one to get the nerf first.
So maybe we shouldn't use the Dreadknight at all as a comparison to the Riptide, because, if we go with the idea that both needs nerfs, then the Riptide has to go first, and then show what should be nerfed about the Dreadknight when it gets it's next update.
So maybe we should just forget the Dreadknight for the time being, and look at the Riptide as is, in concert with its army and against other armies.
Or we could look at it from another angle: Dreadknight is the most recently released all out combat MC. As such it represents the most up to date standard of what the designers intend a combat MC to do. Therefore everything else should be buffed or nerfed as needed to be on par with the Dreadknight.
Pretty much this.
Also, if GW wanted to nerf them then they would have started with the Dreadknight as they weren't updated that long ago, but they didn"'t so I highly doubt that the Riptide will be needed. If anything it'll get cheaper like the Dreadknight did.
Well, I wouldn't say that it's still going as is, it has just devolved to the usual "my experience vs your experience" talks, and not, you know, discussing things from a general viewpoint.
IA needs a price hike?
Riptide shouldn't be able to use FnP against Nova?
3++ should be 4++ at best?
Markers should be 1 counter = -1 cover?
Ethereal power should be Ld test?
Riptide base cost could be increased if HBC is better?
I don't think this is necessary if the Riptide were appropriately costed.
"Riptide shouldn't be able to use FnP against Nova? "
Get rid of the gets hot, make the roll an activation roll, and reduce the Riptide by one wound. Having the thing deal wounds to itself is stupid, and an excuse for extra wounds even though this is only like a 1% or so chance of this happening.
IA needs a price hike?
Riptide shouldn't be able to use FnP against Nova?
3++ should be 4++ at best?
Markers should be 1 counter = -1 cover?
Ethereal power should be Ld test?
Riptide base cost could be increased if HBC is better?
I wouldn't agree to all of these, but some are good...
Any combination of these: 1) charge 20-25 pt for the IA, 2) change the profile to AP 3, 3) make it 36'' and/or 4) remove the Overcharge Option.
Remove the FnP - I will buy FnP for Greater Nurgle Daemons, not for a flimsy battlesuit - It's simply too much of a gamechanger.
Don't care about the 3++/4++ thing, really.
Agree on Markers and Ethereal powers. Also think Ethereals should only work in units, like the Sanguinary Priest. Maybe one or the other, though.
The Wise Dane wrote: Wait. That might give GW a reason to remake him, without his Honour Guard. Glorious new plastic and all.
Why without? That would be a wasted opportunity, in my opinion. Imagine a glorious plastic kit like the new Logan Grimnar, with his honor guard leashed to his floating chair and pulling him across the battlefield. And an $80 price tag because reasons.
It's weapon systems are a joke compared to the Riptide.
It's weapons are actually pretty good for several roles, but it also has a much higher CC ability than the Riptide.
It's short range is also mitigated by the fact that it can move forward at a decent rate and it isn't entirely afraid to get into CC like a Riptide.
Dreadknights are exceptionally awesome. They aren't invulnerable in their roll though, Riptides are. If your riptides are actually dying it's because literally an entire 2000 point army is shooting at it and getting a little lucky at the same time (by actually having enough mass firepower in range to reach it and for you failing more saves than you should) Last time I checked armies with 40 laz cannons a turn don't even exist at 2000 points.. Dread-knights take a lot more fire...they walk into range of plasma guns, grav guns, melta guns, even bolters can scrape off some wounds. I've got no problems with the weapons on ether of these boats...just remove FNP and give it a 5++ so it's not ALWAYS taking 2 saves - add the base cost of the FNP to riptide base cost and it's still more survivable than a dreadknight for less points with both being properly armed and it still doesn't have to brave short ranged weaponry! The suggested nerfs are totally justified.
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The Wise Dane wrote: Just a point I think is important to remember - the arguement that some people make is, that if the Riptide is to be nerfed at the core, then the Dreadknight should be too, as they are very similar and can do the same thing, save the CC abilities.
Thing is, if that's really the argument that we go for, then someone must be nerfed first, for any change to happen. In this case, the Riptide is the one that's most likely to get it's nerf first, as it's the oldest of the two codexes, and therefor the one that will recieve changes first. So, if the point is that both should be nerfed, then the Riptide would be the one to get the nerf first.
So maybe we shouldn't use the Dreadknight at all as a comparison to the Riptide, because, if we go with the idea that both needs nerfs, then the Riptide has to go first, and then show what should be nerfed about the Dreadknight when it gets it's next update.
So maybe we should just forget the Dreadknight for the time being, and look at the Riptide as is, in concert with its army and against other armies.
LOL I'm only suggesting the riptide be brought down to dread-knight level...everyone goes insane...I field as many dreadknights as I can at all times...trust me...this amount of surviability is enough - riptides have too much and never even need to brave danger. It's my only issue with them.
SGTPozy wrote: We don't want to restart the discussion about how broken the Dreadknight is so please go away.
Why not? I think some Tau players are in serious denial about the mathematical differences between the two. But by all means, carry on.
It has been done to death, there is no need to repeat ourselves and we all know that the Riptide is too good (with the IA), but what you IoM players don't realise is just how cheesy your own Dreadknight is.
SGTPozy wrote: We don't want to restart the discussion about how broken the Dreadknight is so please go away.
Why not? I think some Tau players are in serious denial about the mathematical differences between the two. But by all means, carry on.
It has been done to death, there is no need to repeat ourselves and we all know that the Riptide is too good (with the IA), but what you IoM players don't realise is just how cheesy your own Dreadknight is.
I have no problems killing them. How are they cheesy? They are just a big dumb melee machine in a shooting game. The whole GK army needs to get within 24" to do much of anything. That's a pretty serious limitation. They can't hide on the other side of the board and lay waste to entire armies.
SGTPozy wrote: We don't want to restart the discussion about how broken the Dreadknight is so please go away.
Oh please. Don't do that. You've got every right to claim that the Dreadknight is broken, but if he comes in and tries to claim the Riptide is better than the Dreadknight he has to go away? Just because you don't agree doesn't mean he has to leave.
Both of the Monstrous-creatures-that-are-actually-walkers-but-for-some-reason-aren't are great models for their costs. Both are great at what they do. Both are devastating provided you use them correctly. Instead of comparing them to each other by means of a direct points costs comparison, why not shift and look at the value provided by each in their own respective army lists.
How much value does a Dreadknight provide to a Grey Knights army? How much value does a Riptide provide to a Tau army?
SGTPozy wrote: We don't want to restart the discussion about how broken the Dreadknight is so please go away.
Oh please. Don't do that. You've got every right to claim that the Dreadknight is broken, but if he comes in and tries to claim the Riptide is better than the Dreadknight he has to go away? Just because you don't agree doesn't mean he has to leave.
Both of the Monstrous-creatures-that-are-actually-walkers-but-for-some-reason-aren't are great models for their costs. Both are great at what they do. Both are devastating provided you use them correctly. Instead of comparing them to each other by means of a direct points costs comparison, why not shift and look at the value provided by each in their own respective army lists.
How much value does a Dreadknight provide to a Grey Knights army? How much value does a Riptide provide to a Tau army?
The Dreadknight provides good value, but the Riptide provides INSANE value.
I can prove that Dreadknights aren't as bad at least anecdotally, because my weak codex BA doesn't instantly fold to them. The dreadknight has to come over and risk being assaulted or shot by grav, etc. Riptides basically don't ever have to risk themselves.
Having run my Y'vahra riptide yesterday my opponent was actually alot happier at it only being 4 wounds and having a base cost of 55 Points more than an Ion Accelerator riptide. Admittedly the Y'vahra can do 2 AP2 flamers and has a haywire main gun, but its cripplingly shorter range put it right in the enemies lines.
Which led me to believe that 4 wounds for a riptide wouldnt be too potent, and either up the cost of the IA or drop the range to where you become more at risk in using it.
Oh please. Don't do that. You've got every right to claim that the Dreadknight is broken, but if he comes in and tries to claim the Riptide is better than the Dreadknight he has to go away? Just because you don't agree doesn't mean he has to leave.
How much value does a Dreadknight provide to a Grey Knights army? How much value does a Riptide provide to a Tau army?
To the first part; it isn't because I disagree, I have participated in the discussion earlier in the thread and I told him to go away as I'm pretty sure that most of the Tau plates here cannot be bothered to do it again.
To the second part; Riptides are good, but crisis suits aren't massively far behind in damage output. Tau can and do work well without the Riptide
On the other hand, GK players never leave home without 2.
Therefore, Dreadknights have far more value than the Riptide
SGTPozy wrote: We don't want to restart the discussion about how broken the Dreadknight is so please go away.
Why not? I think some Tau players are in serious denial about the mathematical differences between the two. But by all means, carry on.
It has been done to death, there is no need to repeat ourselves and we all know that the Riptide is too good (with the IA), but what you IoM players don't realise is just how cheesy your own Dreadknight is.
I know it's cheesy. Monstrous Creatures in general are cheesy with 2+ saves. There are degrees of cheese though...Theres plain old american cheese (like a drop pod) so cheap and so tasty. Theres Cheddar Jack (Dreadknights) Shooting and assault combined in a nice cheesy package and then there is Gouda (riptides) Such stinky cheese that it doesn't even taste good unless you melt it (set it on fire.) Point is there is cheese everywhere but some cheese stinks more than others. Wave Serpent>Wraithknight>Riptide>IK (mainly because of the stomp rule.)
Y'vahra is honestly a bit weak.
He just has too little range to work with.
While he will kill just about anything, he isn't likely to survive the counterattack.
Oh please. Don't do that. You've got every right to claim that the Dreadknight is broken, but if he comes in and tries to claim the Riptide is better than the Dreadknight he has to go away? Just because you don't agree doesn't mean he has to leave.
How much value does a Dreadknight provide to a Grey Knights army? How much value does a Riptide provide to a Tau army?
To the first part; it isn't because I disagree, I have participated in the discussion earlier in the thread and I told him to go away as I'm pretty sure that most of the Tau plates here cannot be bothered to do it again.
To the second part; Riptides are good, but crisis suits aren't massively far behind in damage output. Tau can and do work well without the Riptide
On the other hand, GK players never leave home without 2.
Therefore, Dreadknights have far more value than the Riptide
Didn't you just post that Razorbacks are underpriced in a "Is the razorback overpriced" thread?
Oh please. Don't do that. You've got every right to claim that the Dreadknight is broken, but if he comes in and tries to claim the Riptide is better than the Dreadknight he has to go away? Just because you don't agree doesn't mean he has to leave.
How much value does a Dreadknight provide to a Grey Knights army? How much value does a Riptide provide to a Tau army?
To the first part; it isn't because I disagree, I have participated in the discussion earlier in the thread and I told him to go away as I'm pretty sure that most of the Tau plates here cannot be bothered to do it again.
To the second part; Riptides are good, but crisis suits aren't massively far behind in damage output. Tau can and do work well without the Riptide
On the other hand, GK players never leave home without 2.
Therefore, Dreadknights have far more value than the Riptide
Didn't you just post that Razorbacks are underpriced in a "Is the razorback overpriced" thread?
Yeah, he did. Which kinda shoots credibility, in my view. I sometimes have sometimes have strange perspectives, but this?
Martel732 wrote: "To the second part; Riptides are good, but crisis suits aren't massively far behind in damage output."
Maybe not, but they sure die a lot faster.
"Therefore, Dreadknights have far more value than the Riptide"
Nope.
The Dreadknight far outclasses everything else in the codex as it shoots the best, moves the best, assaults the best and is the most survivable.
The Riptide doesn't shoot the best, doesn't have the best movement (Shadowsun and her squad does), doesn't do the best in the assault phase (Farsight does) but does have the best survivability.
Conclusion; Dreadknight is far more central to GKs then the Riptide is to Tau.
SGTPozy wrote: To the second part; Riptides are good, but crisis suits aren't massively far behind in damage output. Tau can and do work well without the Riptide
I'll go ahead and call bs on this. I've literally never seen a Tau player since the new codex without at least one Riptide. Usually at least 2 - the only single I can remember is because he was a high school student and could only afford one at the time.
And remember - it's not just about damage output or you wouldn't have been offended by the suggestion to drop T to 5. It's about how much damage output there is, how much gets reduced per wound, and the point cost effectiveness thereof.
Taking any one of those three out of context - sure, Tau can do that without the Riptide. But all 3 together?
SGTPozy wrote: The Dreadknight far outclasses everything else in the codex as it shoots the best, moves the best, assaults the best and is the most survivable.
False statement.
Conclusion; Dreadknight is far more central to GKs then the Riptide is to Tau.
Conclusion based on false statement means the conclusion cannot be correct. Try again.
Oh please. Don't do that. You've got every right to claim that the Dreadknight is broken, but if he comes in and tries to claim the Riptide is better than the Dreadknight he has to go away? Just because you don't agree doesn't mean he has to leave.
How much value does a Dreadknight provide to a Grey Knights army? How much value does a Riptide provide to a Tau army?
To the first part; it isn't because I disagree, I have participated in the discussion earlier in the thread and I told him to go away as I'm pretty sure that most of the Tau plates here cannot be bothered to do it again.
To the second part; Riptides are good, but crisis suits aren't massively far behind in damage output. Tau can and do work well without the Riptide
On the other hand, GK players never leave home without 2.
Therefore, Dreadknights have far more value than the Riptide
Didn't you just post that Razorbacks are underpriced in a "Is the razorback overpriced" thread?
Yeah, he did. Which kinda shoots credibility, in my view. I sometimes have sometimes have strange perspectives, but this?
I really don't want to sound mean but if you think razors are under-priced and riptides are fine these definitely something wrong there...
SGTPozy wrote: To the second part; Riptides are good, but crisis suits aren't massively far behind in damage output. Tau can and do work well without the Riptide
I'll go ahead and call bs on this. I've literally never seen a Tau player since the new codex without at least one Riptide. Usually at least 2 - the only single I can remember is because he was a high school student and could only afford one at the time.
And remember - it's not just about damage output or you wouldn't have been offended by the suggestion to drop T to 5. It's about how much damage output there is, how much gets reduced per wound, and the point cost effectiveness thereof.
Taking any one of those three out of context - sure, Tau can do that without the Riptide. But all 3 together?
I wasn't offended by that suggestion, I was offended how only 1 of the 3 big 'knight' MCs is viewed to need that nerf. I'd be perfectly happy if the Dreadknight and Wraithknight were also merged in their T values.
Oh please. Don't do that. You've got every right to claim that the Dreadknight is broken, but if he comes in and tries to claim the Riptide is better than the Dreadknight he has to go away? Just because you don't agree doesn't mean he has to leave.
How much value does a Dreadknight provide to a Grey Knights army? How much value does a Riptide provide to a Tau army?
To the first part; it isn't because I disagree, I have participated in the discussion earlier in the thread and I told him to go away as I'm pretty sure that most of the Tau plates here cannot be bothered to do it again.
To the second part; Riptides are good, but crisis suits aren't massively far behind in damage output. Tau can and do work well without the Riptide
On the other hand, GK players never leave home without 2.
Therefore, Dreadknights have far more value than the Riptide
Didn't you just post that Razorbacks are underpriced in a "Is the razorback overpriced" thread?
Yeah, he did. Which kinda shoots credibility, in my view. I sometimes have sometimes have strange perspectives, but this?
I really don't want to sound mean but if you think razors are under-priced and riptides are fine these definitely something wrong there...
I DO NOT think that Riptides are fine. I think that they should be nerfed alongside Dreadknights and Wraitknights.
SGTPozy wrote: The Dreadknight far outclasses everything else in the codex as it shoots the best, moves the best, assaults the best and is the most survivable.
False statement.
Conclusion; Dreadknight is far more central to GKs then the Riptide is to Tau.
Conclusion based on false statement means the conclusion cannot be correct. Try again.
SGTPozy wrote: To the second part; Riptides are good, but crisis suits aren't massively far behind in damage output. Tau can and do work well without the Riptide
I'll go ahead and call bs on this. I've literally never seen a Tau player since the new codex without at least one Riptide. Usually at least 2 - the only single I can remember is because he was a high school student and could only afford one at the time.
And remember - it's not just about damage output or you wouldn't have been offended by the suggestion to drop T to 5. It's about how much damage output there is, how much gets reduced per wound, and the point cost effectiveness thereof.
Taking any one of those three out of context - sure, Tau can do that without the Riptide. But all 3 together?
I wasn't offended by that suggestion, I was offended how only 1 of the 3 big 'knight' MCs is viewed to need that nerf. I'd be perfectly happy if the Dreadknight and Wraithknight were also merged in their T values.
And again, different codexes are different. The Dreadknights isn't overpowered, it's just the best/only option in that slot. Same with the Wraithknight.
When you take everything into account, the Riptide is stronger than it should be at its point level.
SGTPozy wrote: To the second part; Riptides are good, but crisis suits aren't massively far behind in damage output. Tau can and do work well without the Riptide
I'll go ahead and call bs on this. I've literally never seen a Tau player since the new codex without at least one Riptide. Usually at least 2 - the only single I can remember is because he was a high school student and could only afford one at the time.
And remember - it's not just about damage output or you wouldn't have been offended by the suggestion to drop T to 5. It's about how much damage output there is, how much gets reduced per wound, and the point cost effectiveness thereof.
Taking any one of those three out of context - sure, Tau can do that without the Riptide. But all 3 together?
I wasn't offended by that suggestion, I was offended how only 1 of the 3 big 'knight' MCs is viewed to need that nerf. I'd be perfectly happy if the Dreadknight and Wraithknight were also merged in their T values.
Oh please. Don't do that. You've got every right to claim that the Dreadknight is broken, but if he comes in and tries to claim the Riptide is better than the Dreadknight he has to go away? Just because you don't agree doesn't mean he has to leave.
How much value does a Dreadknight provide to a Grey Knights army? How much value does a Riptide provide to a Tau army?
To the first part; it isn't because I disagree, I have participated in the discussion earlier in the thread and I told him to go away as I'm pretty sure that most of the Tau plates here cannot be bothered to do it again.
To the second part; Riptides are good, but crisis suits aren't massively far behind in damage output. Tau can and do work well without the Riptide
On the other hand, GK players never leave home without 2.
Therefore, Dreadknights have far more value than the Riptide
Didn't you just post that Razorbacks are underpriced in a "Is the razorback overpriced" thread?
Yeah, he did. Which kinda shoots credibility, in my view. I sometimes have sometimes have strange perspectives, but this?
I really don't want to sound mean but if you think razors are under-priced and riptides are fine these definitely something wrong there...
I DO NOT think that Riptides are fine. I think that they should be nerfed alongside Dreadknights and Wraitknights.
Nah dude. Dreadknights give everyone I play a hard time. They don't need to be stronger. Dreadknights don't cause the rage that riptides do though because they die when you shoot them a lot and provide for a fun game with some crucial rolls. The game against a tau player - the riptide is 60" out and can't be touched even if it was in range. It could just shoot 3 str 7 ap2 shots into your terminators but here comes the crucial roll! oh I rolled a 3 on a d6...that means your whole term squad is annihilated by an effective 60 inch vindicator shot...wow that was fun and fair at the same time. So glad your brought that riptide.
SGTPozy wrote: The Dreadknight far outclasses everything else in the codex as it shoots the best, moves the best, assaults the best and is the most survivable.
False statement.
Conclusion; Dreadknight is far more central to GKs then the Riptide is to Tau.
Conclusion based on false statement means the conclusion cannot be correct. Try again.
So because you disagree then I am wrong? Okay...
It's not because I disagree - it's because that statement is factually incorrect.
The Dreadknight does not, quote, "far outclass everything else in the codex" at all.
Shooting the best is debatable.
Moving the best is incorrect - there are units that move exactly the same as it does.
Assaulting the best is incorrect.
Most survivable is debatable.
BoomWolf wrote: Y'vahra is honestly a bit weak.
He just has too little range to work with.
While he will kill just about anything, he isn't likely to survive the counterattack.
#
A punisher Pask did rend him to death T1 in one of my games, the 4+ save within 12 inches was helpful though.
SGTPozy wrote: To the second part; Riptides are good, but crisis suits aren't massively far behind in damage output. Tau can and do work well without the Riptide
I'll go ahead and call bs on this. I've literally never seen a Tau player since the new codex without at least one Riptide. Usually at least 2 - the only single I can remember is because he was a high school student and could only afford one at the time.
And remember - it's not just about damage output or you wouldn't have been offended by the suggestion to drop T to 5. It's about how much damage output there is, how much gets reduced per wound, and the point cost effectiveness thereof.
Taking any one of those three out of context - sure, Tau can do that without the Riptide. But all 3 together?
I wasn't offended by that suggestion, I was offended how only 1 of the 3 big 'knight' MCs is viewed to need that nerf. I'd be perfectly happy if the Dreadknight and Wraithknight were also merged in their T values.
And again, different codexes are different. The Dreadknights isn't overpowered, it's just the best/only option in that slot. Same with the Wraithknight.
When you take everything into account, the Riptide is stronger than it should be at its point level.
So why complain if "different codexes are different"? The reason why the Riptide is so good is because of that very reason.
SGTPozy wrote: To the second part; Riptides are good, but crisis suits aren't massively far behind in damage output. Tau can and do work well without the Riptide
I'll go ahead and call bs on this. I've literally never seen a Tau player since the new codex without at least one Riptide. Usually at least 2 - the only single I can remember is because he was a high school student and could only afford one at the time.
And remember - it's not just about damage output or you wouldn't have been offended by the suggestion to drop T to 5. It's about how much damage output there is, how much gets reduced per wound, and the point cost effectiveness thereof.
Taking any one of those three out of context - sure, Tau can do that without the Riptide. But all 3 together?
I wasn't offended by that suggestion, I was offended how only 1 of the 3 big 'knight' MCs is viewed to need that nerf. I'd be perfectly happy if the Dreadknight and Wraithknight were also merged in their T values.
Oh please. Don't do that. You've got every right to claim that the Dreadknight is broken, but if he comes in and tries to claim the Riptide is better than the Dreadknight he has to go away? Just because you don't agree doesn't mean he has to leave.
How much value does a Dreadknight provide to a Grey Knights army? How much value does a Riptide provide to a Tau army?
To the first part; it isn't because I disagree, I have participated in the discussion earlier in the thread and I told him to go away as I'm pretty sure that most of the Tau plates here cannot be bothered to do it again.
To the second part; Riptides are good, but crisis suits aren't massively far behind in damage output. Tau can and do work well without the Riptide
On the other hand, GK players never leave home without 2.
Therefore, Dreadknights have far more value than the Riptide
Didn't you just post that Razorbacks are underpriced in a "Is the razorback overpriced" thread?
Yeah, he did. Which kinda shoots credibility, in my view. I sometimes have sometimes have strange perspectives, but this?
I really don't want to sound mean but if you think razors are under-priced and riptides are fine these definitely something wrong there...
I DO NOT think that Riptides are fine. I think that they should be nerfed alongside Dreadknights and Wraitknights.
Nah dude. Dreadknights give everyone I play a hard time. They don't need to be stronger. Dreadknights don't cause the rage that riptides do though because they die when you shoot them a lot and provide for a fun game with some crucial rolls. The game against a tau player - the riptide is 60" out and can't be touched even if it was in range. It could just shoot 3 str 7 ap2 shots into your terminators but here comes the crucial roll! oh I rolled a 3 on a d6...that means your whole term squad is annihilated by an effective 60 inch vindicator shot...wow that was fun and fair at the same time. So glad your brought that riptide.
How can 3 shots wipe out a terminator squad? They are at least 5 man squads... So you're point is wrong.
SGTPozy wrote: To the second part; Riptides are good, but crisis suits aren't massively far behind in damage output. Tau can and do work well without the Riptide
I'll go ahead and call bs on this. I've literally never seen a Tau player since the new codex without at least one Riptide. Usually at least 2 - the only single I can remember is because he was a high school student and could only afford one at the time.
And remember - it's not just about damage output or you wouldn't have been offended by the suggestion to drop T to 5. It's about how much damage output there is, how much gets reduced per wound, and the point cost effectiveness thereof.
Taking any one of those three out of context - sure, Tau can do that without the Riptide. But all 3 together?
I wasn't offended by that suggestion, I was offended how only 1 of the 3 big 'knight' MCs is viewed to need that nerf. I'd be perfectly happy if the Dreadknight and Wraithknight were also merged in their T values.
And again, different codexes are different. The Dreadknights isn't overpowered, it's just the best/only option in that slot. Same with the Wraithknight.
When you take everything into account, the Riptide is stronger than it should be at its point level.
So why complain if "different codexes are different"? The reason why the Riptide is so good is because of that very reason.
It's so good IN ITS OWN CODEX. You bring up the DK and WK as if every oval base Knight needs a nerf because reasons.
You've failed to support your statements, however.
SGTPozy wrote: The Dreadknight far outclasses everything else in the codex as it shoots the best, moves the best, assaults the best and is the most survivable.
False statement.
Conclusion; Dreadknight is far more central to GKs then the Riptide is to Tau.
Conclusion based on false statement means the conclusion cannot be correct. Try again.
So because you disagree then I am wrong? Okay...
It's not because I disagree - it's because that statement is factually incorrect.
The Dreadknight does not, quote, "far outclass everything else in the codex" at all.
Shooting the best is debatable.
Moving the best is incorrect - there are units that move exactly the same as it does.
Assaulting the best is incorrect.
Most survivable is debatable.
What shoots better?
I'll give you the movement one as forgot about Interceptors, What assaults better than 5 Str10 insta-death attacks on a character model? Don't say Draigo as he's a LoW.
What is more survivable?
SGTPozy wrote: To the second part; Riptides are good, but crisis suits aren't massively far behind in damage output. Tau can and do work well without the Riptide
I'll go ahead and call bs on this. I've literally never seen a Tau player since the new codex without at least one Riptide. Usually at least 2 - the only single I can remember is because he was a high school student and could only afford one at the time.
And remember - it's not just about damage output or you wouldn't have been offended by the suggestion to drop T to 5. It's about how much damage output there is, how much gets reduced per wound, and the point cost effectiveness thereof.
Taking any one of those three out of context - sure, Tau can do that without the Riptide. But all 3 together?
I wasn't offended by that suggestion, I was offended how only 1 of the 3 big 'knight' MCs is viewed to need that nerf. I'd be perfectly happy if the Dreadknight and Wraithknight were also merged in their T values.
And again, different codexes are different. The Dreadknights isn't overpowered, it's just the best/only option in that slot. Same with the Wraithknight.
When you take everything into account, the Riptide is stronger than it should be at its point level.
So why complain if "different codexes are different"? The reason why the Riptide is so good is because of that very reason.
It's so good IN ITS OWN CODEX. You bring up the DK and WK as if every oval base Knight needs a nerf because reasons.
You've failed to support your statements, however.
Read the previous pages where there have been reasons given about how the others are awesome. I've already said that plasma suits with a buffmander beat the Riptide's damage output.
You said 3 Str 7 shots though... You cannot turn those shots into large blasts, you have yo choose which mode you will fire.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They also get their 5++ or cover save and alsowhy would you had the squad so tightly packed together? Seems like an amateur mistake to me.
I'll give you the movement one as forgot about Interceptors, What assaults better than 5 Str10 insta-death attacks on a character model? Don't say Draigo as he's a LoW.
Well, all GK attacks are ID since they're all Force weapons.
STR10 is often irrelevant - it really just means it's 2+ to wound. Paladins with Hammerhand are Str 6 iirc, so 2+ to wound pretty much everything.
Or hammers that are S9 with Hammerhand iirc.
What is more survivable?
Because of the fact the DK normally has to shunt turn one to be effective (with the Torrent flamer) pretty much anything else in the codex.
Read the previous pages where there have been reasons given about how the others are awesome. I've already said that plasma suits with a buffmander beat the Riptide's damage output.
Yes, the others are awesome. Did I disagree with that?
And sure, but they have to get significantly close than the Riptide, which (along with significantly lower toughness and a worse armor save) makes them far less survivable.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SGTPozy wrote: You said 3 Str 7 shots though... You cannot turn those shots into large blasts, you have yo choose which mode you will fire.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They also get their 5++ or cover save and alsowhy would you had the squad so tightly packed together? Seems like an amateur mistake to me.
He did say "Deep Strike". Yeah, following the rules is amateur.
SGTPozy wrote: You said 3 Str 7 shots though... You cannot turn those shots into large blasts, you have yo choose which mode you will fire.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They also get their 5++ or cover save and alsowhy would you had the squad so tightly packed together? Seems like an amateur mistake to me.
Nah I Said you roll a 3+ to get the large blast. I know how it works...5 inch template hits 4-5 models spaced out 2 inches
Yes, other stuff is equal against normal stuff but what about against a Riptide in combat? Str10 really helps there. Same as with against vehicles; auto pen.
So you're ignoring T6's benefits on the Dreadknight but it benefits he Riptide greatly? Wow, just wow.
No you didn't, just like I didn't disagree that the Riptide is powerful. The Dreadknight has the same toughness and save...
SGTPozy wrote: You said 3 Str 7 shots though... You cannot turn those shots into large blasts, you have yo choose which mode you will fire.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They also get their 5++ or cover save and alsowhy would you had the squad so tightly packed together? Seems like an amateur mistake to me.
2" unit coherency, large blast template, so it isnt bunching up. Also, 5++ ain't that great. Oh, and markerlights ignore cover, so there's that. You're grasping at straws now.
SGTPozy wrote: You said 3 Str 7 shots though... You cannot turn those shots into large blasts, you have yo choose which mode you will fire.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They also get their 5++ or cover save and alsowhy would you had the squad so tightly packed together? Seems like an amateur mistake to me.
2" unit coherency, large blast template, so it isnt bunching up. Also, 5++ ain't that great. Oh, and markerlights ignore cover, so there's that. You're grasping at straws now.
Not really, a large blast will give 2-3 hits, meaning 1 or 2 casualties. Yes, markerlights can ignore cover but YOU are gasping at straws by bringing them into the discussion. I will now do likewise; what if they have storm shields and a sanctuc psyker gave them +1 to their invulnerable save? Then none will die.
SGTPozy wrote: You said 3 Str 7 shots though... You cannot turn those shots into large blasts, you have yo choose which mode you will fire.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They also get their 5++ or cover save and alsowhy would you had the squad so tightly packed together? Seems like an amateur mistake to me.
2" unit coherency, large blast template, so it isnt bunching up. Also, 5++ ain't that great. Oh, and markerlights ignore cover, so there's that. You're grasping at straws now.
Not really, a large blast will give 2-3 hits, meaning 1 or 2 casualties. Yes, markerlights can ignore cover but YOU are gasping at straws by bringing them into the discussion. I will now do likewise; what if they have storm shields and a sanctuc psyker gave them +1 to their invulnerable save? Then none will die.
Nope, they can still roll 1s and die. Also, how is bringing markerlights into the discussion irrelevant? Most Tau have armies have tons of markerlights and 2+ Riptides. So that 2-3 hits turns into the whole squad.
It's irrelevant as we are not bringing Imperial shenanigans into account. They can have prescience on and forewarning/foreboding (the ignores cover one), same as we were assuming that they were not THSS termites when the likelihood would be that they were.
.5 inch template hits 4-5 models spaced out 2 inches
No it doesnt.
I was giving you an average based on my experience in 40k. In a real game scenerio units have to clump up for all kinds of reasons a lot of them are out of your control. If units never bunched up there would be almost no reason to ever use a large blast template.
SGTPozy wrote: It's irrelevant as we are not bringing Imperial shenanigans into account. They can have prescience on and forewarning/foreboding (the ignores cover one), same as we were assuming that they were not THSS termites when the likelihood would be that they were.
Have to roll on spell table- at best a 50% chance to get the spell you want most the time...have to cast the spell which can hurt you...you can cancel it...seems pretty fair to me.
... lots of people? And handwaving units away doesn't support your argument.
Yes, other stuff is equal against normal stuff but what about against a Riptide in combat? Str10 really helps there. Same as with against vehicles; auto pen.
So you're going to ignore that I mentioned Hammers. cool story bro.
So you're ignoring T6's benefits on the Dreadknight but it benefits he Riptide greatly? Wow, just wow.
Nope. Just acknowledging that the Riptide can stay back and shoot from a distance. The DK can't.
No you didn't, just like I didn't disagree that the Riptide is powerful. The Dreadknight has the same toughness and save...
I was giving you an average based on my experience in 40k. In a real game scenerio units have to clump up for all kinds of reasons a lot of them are out of your control. If units never bunched up there would be almost no reason to ever use a large blast template.
Your statement was that it would hit 4-5 models spaced out 2 inches. If they are clumped for "all kinds of reasons" they are not spaced out 2 inches.
Tau have to have the marker light guys alive (any competent player would kill them frst), they need to be in range and Lin of sight of the unit. They have to hit, and since most people run them in small squads it is average to get 1 (after damage to the unit)
I think with some points adjustments we could have a more intresting system.
Perhaps make it rapid fire instead of heavy. or salvo of some sort but drop the range from 36 to maybe 30-24. making pathfinders a bit more mobile then sit in ruins and point flashlights.
if we could allow them to hit with a little bit more light, then there wouldnt be an issue with making coversave reductions cost 1 light each.
Edit Also no overwatching lights.
thats silly.
Edit: VVVVVV if that is directed at me i did say points adjustments.
And yet people seem to keep failing to grasp the simple fact that markerlights costs points.
These "tons of markerlights" tau players get, means they field 15%-25% less actual guns.
... lots of people? And handwaving units away doesn't support your argument.
Paladins are generally considered to be as useful as Vespid for Tau. Yes it does if it isn't comparable. I could say that the Riptide is naked and has the Burst Cannon, but that isn't commonly used so we compare it t the net build.
Yes, other stuff is equal against normal stuff but what about against a Riptide in combat? Str10 really helps there. Same as with against vehicles; auto pen.
So you're going to ignore that I mentioned Hammers. cool story bro.
Hammer make you strike at I1, whilst Dreaknights strike at their own initiative.
So you're ignoring T6's benefits on the Dreadknight but it benefits he Riptide greatly? Wow, just wow.
Nope. Just acknowledging that the Riptide can stay back and shoot from a distance. The DK can't.
The Dreadknight can stay 24" away and that's outside of rapid fire range.
No you didn't, just like I didn't disagree that the Riptide is powerful. The Dreadknight has the same toughness and save...
And a model is more than just toughness and save.
Yes, but they are important. That is the reason why nurgle bikers are more survivable than guardsmen (better toughness and save).
I was giving you an average based on my experience in 40k. In a real game scenerio units have to clump up for all kinds of reasons a lot of them are out of your control. If units never bunched up there would be almost no reason to ever use a large blast template.
Your statement was that it would hit 4-5 models spaced out 2 inches. If they are clumped for "all kinds of reasons" they are not spaced out 2 inches.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BoomWolf wrote: And yet people seem to keep failing to grasp the simple fact that markerlights costs points.
These "tons of markerlights" tau players get, means they field 15%-25% less actual guns.
You messed up the quotes, so forgive me if I misattribute something.
Paladins are generally considered to be as useful as Vespid for Tau. Yes it does if it isn't comparable. I could say that the Riptide is naked and has the Burst Cannon, but that isn't commonly used so we compare it t the net build.
Really? Whatever - Terminators with Psycannons. Purifiers with - wait for it - Psycannons. Get the picture?
Hammer make you strike at I1, whilst Dreaknights strike at their own initiative.
... and? Against vehicles that's irrelevant and against bigger monsters it's your own fault if you kill the hammer guys first in CC.
The Dreadknight can stay 24" away and that's outside of rapid fire range.
Which DK are you arguing for? The Torrent (with a max range of ~20" if it only wants one hit) or the Gatling Psilencer that does have Force, but is only S4.
Yes, but they are important. That is the reason why nurgle bikers are more survivable than guardsmen (better toughness and save).
I never said they weren't. But all you've done is take sections of the model out of context.
"Paladins are generally considered to be as useful as Vespid for Tau. Yes it does if it isn't comparable. I could say that the Riptide is naked and has the Burst Cannon, but that isn't commonly used so we compare it t the net build."
Ignatius wrote: "Paladins are generally considered to be as useful as Vespid for Tau. Yes it does if it isn't comparable. I could say that the Riptide is naked and has the Burst Cannon, but that isn't commonly used so we compare it t the net build."
This is wrong. You are wrong.
Paladins are great en mass. I usual just take the terminators with 1 wound but paladins are a much better buff unit.
Ignatius wrote: "Paladins are generally considered to be as useful as Vespid for Tau. Yes it does if it isn't comparable. I could say that the Riptide is naked and has the Burst Cannon, but that isn't commonly used so we compare it t the net build."
This is wrong. You are wrong.
Paladins are great en mass. I usual just take the terminators with 1 wound but paladins are a much better buff unit.
I agree. I was addressing the point made that Paladins are so horribly bad that no one ever plays with them except in the most fluff oriented lists imaginable. That was the comparison. That Paladins are like Vespid. Which is wrong.
Quickjager wrote: Paladins are great except when they get doubled out by a certain unit that we are discussing...
Exalted for truth.
Despite all my posts, I am NOT anti-Tau. In fact, I rather like the theme of the list and I am sad that many Tau models don't get fielded because of their mathematical inferiority.
I am just anti-absurd. If there were a unit in my own BA that was mispointed, I would be down on it as well. However, GW did not see fit to give BA anything remotely undercosted. It's good to be the privileged few with the units that get flamed.
Quickjager wrote: Paladins are great except when they get doubled out by a certain unit that we are discussing...
Exalted for truth.
Despite all my posts, I am NOT anti-Tau. In fact, I rather like the theme of the list and I am sad that many Tau models don't get fielded because of their mathematical inferiority.
I am just anti-absurd. If there were a unit in my own BA that was mispointed, I would be down on it as well. However, GW did not see fit to give BA anything remotely undercosted. It's good to be the privileged few with the units that get flamed.
BA get the shaft for being OP as heck in 5th - lol. In all seriousness DA and BA should be two of the strongest chapters and they are the two worst. I bet theres a direct link to why they suck....IE most marine players played BA or DA already so they got noticeably weaker books. I feel so bad for my DA...but when i think about playing with them - I want to throw up or just start thinking about taking 3 knights with them to give the a chance - I'd have to buy 2 more knights to do that.
BA weren't even that OP in 5th. There were four other lists that were better. I beat so many enemy BA lists that were considered "superior" it's crazy. BA were easy to beat on the table with generalship because they required assaults.
