gmaleron wrote: ^ +1, you could easily take allies and keep it fluff to fill what your army needs.
Come to think of it, Darnath Lysander owes Tycho a favor according to the Sentinels of Terra. So imperial fists allies could be considered for lore purposes.
HA!
Honestly though the taking allies is just a cop outy way to throw monies at gw. and no one wants to throw monies at gw. or people dont have that much monies to throw. or is to young. or whatever.
gmaleron wrote: ^ +1, you could easily take allies and keep it fluff to fill what your army needs.
Come to think of it, Darnath Lysander owes Tycho a favor according to the Sentinels of Terra. So imperial fists allies could be considered for lore purposes.
Allies that boost bolters. Just the kinds of allies the BA need, lol.
gmaleron wrote: ^ +1, you could easily take allies and keep it fluff to fill what your army needs.
Come to think of it, Darnath Lysander owes Tycho a favor according to the Sentinels of Terra. So imperial fists allies could be considered for lore purposes.
Allies that boost bolters. Just the kinds of allies the BA need, lol.
They also get access to Centurions in their Heavy Support and Fast Attack. But anyway it can be regular Codex Astartes compliant marines if you wish.
gmaleron wrote: ^ +1, you could easily take allies and keep it fluff to fill what your army needs.
Come to think of it, Darnath Lysander owes Tycho a favor according to the Sentinels of Terra. So imperial fists allies could be considered for lore purposes.
HA!
Honestly though the taking allies is just a cop outy way to throw monies at gw. and no one wants to throw monies at gw. or people dont have that much monies to throw. or is to young. or whatever.
I don't know, GW seems to stress having allies a lot in the campaign supplements. It works for thematic purposes.
Sometimes the task is to great to undertake alone.
I'm gonna throw my thoughts in here. Tau on their own aren't amazing. Sure they've arguably got the best guns in the game but without them their guardsman in carapace armour remember.
The Riptide is just a big tough thing that can be equiped with lots of stuff but its a crap shot and without FNP it'll wound itself at least twice a game if you try for the 3++.
9/10 people who play against Tau just ignore the pathfinders and then complain that our Riptides and Firewarriors are shooting BS5 ignore cover shots.
My solution...
-Make markerlights cost 1 token per point of cover save to remove instead of 2 to strip it all.
-Make FNP 5pts more expensive on riptides
-Make the Ion Accelerator 5pts more expensive.
I don't run FNP on my riptide, i use him for anti-air and intercepting and he's gone down plenty of times to plasma, melta, Axe of blind fury, imperial knights, wraith knights.
If your playing Tau don't stand in the open waving and expect to survive it. you have to close with us fast, kill our pathfinders and force us to move. A Tau player will set up his gun line perfectly but when he starts having to move for objectives or to get away from nasty stuff or taking morale checks that's when their week.
Personally i'd rather play against a Riptide than a Wraithknight with suncannon or an Imperial Knight any day.
The Wraithknight is a loser compared to a Riptide. I can tell you that from playing both with one of the worst lists in the game. Formerly THE worst list in the game.
"Sometimes the task is to great to undertake alone."
I honestly don't see how getting different painted marines to blow apart by Riptides is going to help. Riptides out range the gravstar and can cripple it with two solid hits.
Martel732 wrote: The Wraithknight is a loser compared to a Riptide. I can tell you that from playing both with one of the worst lists in the game. Formerly THE worst list in the game.
"Sometimes the task is to great to undertake alone."
I honestly don't see how getting different painted marines to blow apart by Riptides is going to help. Riptides out range the gravstar and can cripple it with two solid hits.
Why would you be relying on just the gravstar ? Allies bring's a lot of combinations to the table than just one build.
Really? My logic was that anything can at least wound a riptide as its only T6, even lasguns on 6's. You need S5 to wound a wraith knight. and those 3 twin linked AP2 blasts are horrible. I don't see how Suncannon/Scatter Laser is worse than the Ion Accelerator?
Martel732 wrote: The Wraithknight is a loser compared to a Riptide.
I'm interested in how this worked out. I've had several games with Riptides against the WK and always come up the loser. HBC wounds on 6's with rending ignoring it's armor. Plasma wounds on 6, melta half the time if it's in range. In combat it's terrible against the WK. WK has higher WS and I, wounds on 2's and is fearless and can easily be run down.
Even with shooting it's got two S10 shots that can ID the Riptide.
Add in that Eldar can buff it with amazing powers like invisibility and you have a unit that is a good counter to the Riptide.
Taffy17 wrote: Really? My logic was that anything can at least wound a riptide as its only T6, even lasguns on 6's. You need S5 to wound a wraith knight. and those 3 twin linked AP2 blasts are horrible. I don't see how Suncannon/Scatter Laser is worse than the Ion Accelerator?
Then you move onto things like actual AT weapons that SHOULD hurt them and the WK does get hurt, Riptide has a decent chance of shrugging it off. Unless it's like a Lascannon or melta.
Martel732 wrote: The Wraithknight is a loser compared to a Riptide.
I'm interested in how this worked out. I've had several games with Riptides against the WK and always come up the loser. HBC wounds on 6's with rending ignoring it's armor. Plasma wounds on 6, melta half the time if it's in range. In combat it's terrible against the WK. WK has higher WS and I, wounds on 2's and is fearless and can easily be run down.
Even with shooting it's got two S10 shots that can ID the Riptide.
Add in that Eldar can buff it with amazing powers like invisibility and you have a unit that is a good counter to the Riptide.
Wraith-Knight can also get the ghost glaive for close combat can't it ?
Taffy17 wrote: Really? My logic was that anything can at least wound a riptide as its only T6, even lasguns on 6's. You need S5 to wound a wraith knight. and those 3 twin linked AP2 blasts are horrible. I don't see how Suncannon/Scatter Laser is worse than the Ion Accelerator?
Then you move onto things like actual AT weapons that SHOULD hurt them and the WK does get hurt, Riptide has a decent chance of shrugging it off. Unless it's like a Lascannon or melta.
You could say the same thing about terminators or artificer armour.
Taffy17 wrote: Really? My logic was that anything can at least wound a riptide as its only T6, even lasguns on 6's. You need S5 to wound a wraith knight. and those 3 twin linked AP2 blasts are horrible. I don't see how Suncannon/Scatter Laser is worse than the Ion Accelerator?
Then you move onto things like actual AT weapons that SHOULD hurt them and the WK does get hurt, Riptide has a decent chance of shrugging it off. Unless it's like a Lascannon or melta.
You could say the same thing about terminators or artificer armour.
Yea and those guys are T4, don't try cherry picking things, that has been waaaaay to flagrant in this thread.
Martel732 wrote: The Wraithknight is a loser compared to a Riptide.
I'm interested in how this worked out. I've had several games with Riptides against the WK and always come up the loser. HBC wounds on 6's with rending ignoring it's armor. Plasma wounds on 6, melta half the time if it's in range. In combat it's terrible against the WK. WK has higher WS and I, wounds on 2's and is fearless and can easily be run down.
Even with shooting it's got two S10 shots that can ID the Riptide.
Add in that Eldar can buff it with amazing powers like invisibility and you have a unit that is a good counter to the Riptide.
I shoot them poison or ID them with psykers. Or I used to ID them with psykers. Now only Mephy can do it well, but he's in a lot of my lists. 3+ armor is very, very inferior to 2+ armor. That's why the Wraithknight sucks, imo. Wraithknights die to krak rockets; that's weak sauce there.
Add in that Eldar can buff it with amazing powers like invisibility and you have a unit that is a good counter to the Riptide.
Wraith-Knight can also get the ghost glaive for close combat can't it ?
It's base S10. The sword it can get only offers mastercrafted and costs extra over the base model. On it's own it's still deadly in CC due to T8 making it very resistant to most attacks, being a high WS, and high I model with fearless so it can't be run down.
I consider T8 a bigger bonus than going from 3+ to 2+. 2+ is a better save and less weapons ignore it, but going to S8 completely shuts off S4 and less weapons from even being able to touch it, while S5 and 6 need 6's. That is a HUGE bonus. Especially in CC. MEQ with a power sword can't touch it, Maces wound on 6's and don't ignore armor, and Axes need to get a 6 while ignoring armor and striking later.
Taffy17 wrote: Really? My logic was that anything can at least wound a riptide as its only T6, even lasguns on 6's. You need S5 to wound a wraith knight. and those 3 twin linked AP2 blasts are horrible. I don't see how Suncannon/Scatter Laser is worse than the Ion Accelerator?
Then you move onto things like actual AT weapons that SHOULD hurt them and the WK does get hurt, Riptide has a decent chance of shrugging it off. Unless it's like a Lascannon or melta.
You could say the same thing about terminators or artificer armour.
Except terminators and sang guard suck. So keep trying on that one.
Add in that Eldar can buff it with amazing powers like invisibility and you have a unit that is a good counter to the Riptide.
Savageconvoy wrote: Wraith-Knight can also get the ghost glaive for close combat can't it ?
It's base S10. The sword it can get only offers mastercrafted and costs extra over the base model. On it's own it's still deadly in CC due to T8 making it very resistant to most attacks, being a high WS, and high I model with fearless so it can't be run down.
I consider T8 a bigger bonus than going from 3+ to 2+. 2+ is a better save and less weapons ignore it, but going to S8 completely shuts off S4 and less weapons from even being able to touch it, while S5 and 6 need 6's. That is a HUGE bonus. Especially in CC. MEQ with a power sword can't touch it, Maces wound on 6's and don't ignore armor, and Axes need to get a 6 while ignoring armor and striking later.
You consider that, but I'm telling you that 3+ is garbage next to 2+. Especially when half the marine players out there still think that MLs are just fine. If there's one thing I can tell you about, it's how bad 3+ saves are in the scheme of the game. It's so much easier to shoot a WK to death than a Riptide. It's so ironic that the terminator itself is such garbage, but when you put their save on units that actually have good stat lines, how overpowered 2+ becomes.
Most conventional weapons would need 6's to wound both, the only difference is the Riptide has access to a 5+ invulnerable save and potentially a 3+, but then it risks hurting itself 1/3 of the time (a statistic that many seem to overlook or fail to mention) in order to do it so its not reliable. The Wraithknight can also get a 5+ invulnerable save if you give it the Suncannon and Shield build and thanks to Scatter Lasers it will always be twin linked.
And whoever said the Wraithknight was worse then the Riptide...either you have not played Eldar or did not play the Wraithknight correctly. The Wraithknight OWNS the Riptide easily most of the time.
I compared it to terminator and artificer to make the point that even they could survive AT weapons that aren't AP2. Its a problem with that game mechanic I think.
gmaleron wrote: Most conventional weapons would need 6's to wound both, the only difference is the Riptide has access to a 5+ invulnerable save and potentially a 3+, but then it risks hurting itself 1/3 of the time (a statistic that many seem to overlook or fail to mention) in order to do it so its not reliable. The Wraithknight can also get a 5+ invulnerable save if you give it the Suncannon and Shield build and thanks to Scatter Lasers it will always be twin linked.
And whoever said the Wraithknight was worse then the Riptide...either you have not played Eldar or did not play the Wraithknight correctly. The Wraithknight OWNS the Riptide easily most of the time.
I'm talking as a marine player. I'd rather face three WK than even dual Riptides. The suncannon is pretty crappy compared to the IE and the WK is much easier to kill.
I must admit this one also alludes me.
A wraithknight is stronger than IA riptide in every form.
Is it better PRE POINT? that's another question. but one-for-one there is no contest there.
Not to mention three wraiths to two tides.
Interceptor is useless if you have no reserves or only flyers and not properly kitted out. Interceptor also will not get any benefits. If anything you should hope they fire a BS3 interceptor that will NOT ignore cover rather than being shot by it the next turn.
Ignore Cover comes from fragile units. WK get twin-linked from a cheap gun upgrade or from their amazing psykers that can be put on jetbikes and joined to jetbike troops or easily hidden.
Im saying they have the ability which will effect alot of players diffrent way.
The ablility to punk a unit during your own turn is disheartning ignore cover can still happen if you dont have ignore cover of your own.
there is a butt load of variables
at best the WK can actually be out played just with cover alone.
Jet bikes and pyskers have nothing to do with the WK
At st6 it wont affect many vehicles. it will hurt bike units a little less. but the big key is that you at the least have the option of walking around behind and through terrain.
Also those fragile units come in 36" flavor. or the jinky tetra kind. or the awsome skyray (oh wait does it always have skyfire? or can yo chose) remoras (which i love ) the big mark'o markdrone unit that if you dont deal with immidietly will probably cause major issues.
Desubot wrote: Im saying they have the ability which will effect alot of players diffrent way.
The ablility to punk a unit during your own turn is disheartning
ignore cover can still happen if you dont have ignore cover of your own.
there is a butt load of variables
at best the WK can actually be out played just with cover alone.
Jet bikes and pyskers have nothing to do with the WK
At st6 it wont affect many vehicles. it will hurt bike units a little less. but the big key is that you at the least have the option of walking around behind and through terrain.
Every army has access to ignore cover weaponry or abilities in their codex its not just the Tau, for example, Serpent Shields....And even then it take several T3 or T4 units with a 4+ save at best in order to do it which are easy kills for opponents armies.
Desubot wrote: Im saying they have the ability which will effect alot of players diffrent way.
The ablility to punk a unit during your own turn is disheartning ignore cover can still happen if you dont have ignore cover of your own.
there is a butt load of variables
at best the WK can actually be out played just with cover alone.
Jet bikes and pyskers have nothing to do with the WK
At st6 it wont affect many vehicles. it will hurt bike units a little less. but the big key is that you at the least have the option of walking around behind and through terrain.
Every army has access to ignore cover weaponry or abilities in their codex its not just the Tau, and even then it take several T3 or T4 units with a 4+ save at best in order to do it. For example, Serpent Shields....
does everyone have it in enough quantities and reliablilty? and what tau player wont have actual redundancies?
The ablility to punk a unit during your own turn is disheartning
Which is a problem since 6th. People only bringing single flyers got wasted by ADL. This is something that really gets overblown on a unit like a riptide since you may not see any reserve units at all and have to give up a turn of shooting with the added effect of markerlights.
ignore cover can still happen if you dont have ignore cover of your own.
Only if someone deepstrikes or arrives right in LOS of the Riptide with no intervening terrain. It's at the end of the movement phase so there is plenty of chances to avoid being in the open. Even then it's a single BS3 shot with gets hot and doesn't ignore cover. If you get it from support units, I'd argue that WK get Psyker buffs that can include invisibility and twin-linking.
at best the WK can actually be out played just with cover alone.
Hard to do with a unit that moves 12 and has twin-linked blasts.
Jet bikes and pyskers have nothing to do with the WK
Then you can't argue about a Riptide with marker support.
At st6 it wont affect many vehicles.
S10 cannons are it's base weapon and it's base attack in CC.
Wait WK are fast? im pretty sure its just a 6"er (edit il be it is a jump mc) Psyker buff for invisibility means its not on the psyker unit. generally speaking unless its a very desperate situation its not happening (aka against grav centurions) so does it have its S10 weapons or does it have its St6 weapon? Schrodinger WK?
What kind of units often come out of Deep strike and reserves? They will more thank likely be things that go after RTs. its a 1/6 chance to not shoot true. but it can be suplimented with ammo dumps or that one mysterious terrain (not always there but its a thing) even with Bs3 the scatter alone has a 1/3 chance to straight hit which is very good. its also a large blast. usually against tight spiral units (soooo juicy) Also there is always the fusion for drop pod type things that drop near by.
Its exceptionally dishearthing to lose FB during your own turn. and its entirely possible
gmaleron wrote: I fail to see how x3 Twin Linked Small Blasts at S6 AP2 is weaker then a single S8 AP2 large blast?
Because the small blast marker is awful, and most weapons that use it are also awful. 3 TL small blasts = ROF 3 much of the time. It's a star cannon with an extra shot. Yippee.
The S10 single shot cannons I'll live with.
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BoomWolf wrote: I must admit this one also alludes me.
A wraithknight is stronger than IA riptide in every form.
Is it better PRE POINT? that's another question. but one-for-one there is no contest there.
Not to mention three wraiths to two tides.
No, it's not. Its armor blocks half as many wounds and also penetrated by additional weapons. It also lacks 3++ save. Why do you think the WK is scary? It's very meh in my experience. Naked Sternguard make the WK very sad, whereas the Riptide laughs at naked Sternguard.
I don't care who wins in a head to head. I'm talking vs all comers. The WK is not even close to the IA Riptide.
Again the 3++ save is not a guarantee, its not an auto invulnerable save so you should stop treating it like it is. And sorry you are incorrect, x3 Twin Linked small blasts which means you can re-reroll the scatter, are much more accurate and will do more damage then a single large template that will scatter and potentially get hot.
gmaleron wrote: Again the 3++ save is not a guarantee, its not an auto invulnerable save so you should stop treating it like it is. And sorry you are incorrect, x3 Twin Linked small blasts which means you can re-reroll the scatter, are much more accurate and will do more damage then a single large template that will scatter and potentially get hot.
I've had them both used against me... a lot. The small templates are a dumpster fire. They don't do the damage of the Tau template, especially when its ignoring cover. And I can get the WK off the board three times as quickly.
gmaleron wrote: Again the 3++ save is not a guarantee, its not an auto invulnerable save so you should stop treating it like it is. And sorry you are incorrect, x3 Twin Linked small blasts which means you can re-reroll the scatter, are much more accurate and will do more damage then a single large template that will scatter and potentially get hot.
I've had them both used against me... a lot. The small templates are a dumpster fire. They don't do the damage of the Tau template, especially when its ignoring cover. And I can get the WK off the board three times as quickly.
The 3++ is close enough of a guarantee for me.
Its not though, and you may be the only person I have heard or seen who claims the Wraithknight is outclassed by the Riptide.
Isn't the riptide out-classed in some areas by MCs or standard Walkers or similar size or wound - hullpoint ratio like Trygons, Mawlocs and Orkanauts ?
gmaleron wrote: Again the 3++ save is not a guarantee, its not an auto invulnerable save so you should stop treating it like it is. And sorry you are incorrect, x3 Twin Linked small blasts which means you can re-reroll the scatter, are much more accurate and will do more damage then a single large template that will scatter and potentially get hot.
I've had them both used against me... a lot. The small templates are a dumpster fire. They don't do the damage of the Tau template, especially when its ignoring cover. And I can get the WK off the board three times as quickly.
The 3++ is close enough of a guarantee for me.
Its not though, and you may be the only person I have heard or seen who claims the Wraithknight is outclassed by the Riptide.
Really? I find that very interesting. It's not even that close in my mind.
xsharkmanx wrote: @ rigeld2
and again im amused^^
we are clearly talking about the same definitions but pls take in you rconsideration that these flying monsters kost a lot less and are a lot more mobile.
They're not that much mobile. They move between 12 and 24" a turn but can only turn 90 degrees. A Riptide moves between 13 and 18 inches a turn, the majority of that in the Assault phase, and can move in any direction it wishes.
The Riptide doesn't move like that at all. It moves 6 in the movement phase then 2d6 in assault phase, meaning max movement is 8-18" a turn, not 13-18" a turn. (10-30" if you nova-charge for movement, but who does that?)
Dude if I had to put my money on 5 Imperial Knights vs. 5 Riptides... I would pick the riptides
Really? A total of 5 twinlinked melta shots, maybe some double tapping against 5 IK? I would love to see this fight because I don't think the Riptides really have the Firepower to take them down at range and stand no chance at all in CC.
Rending HBC shots will do more than you think.
12 shots, 6 hit, about a Rend (meaning a pen) per shot with a less than 2% chance to take a wound from Gets Hot.
5 Riptides with HBC, Fusion, FNP, and 1 Shielded Missile Drones (for the ablative wounds) costs 250 points.
You add in 2 buffmanders and 2 sets of Broadsides as well as the Riptides and you're at 2k points. All that vs 5 IKs.
5 IK's is 1850, please compare apples to apples. Also, my head may have exploded when you suggested that Tau can take two sets of the same relic. That's just not a thing. Also, HBC riptides are garbage at taking down knights. They wont be able to hurt front armor unless they nova charge, and then they can only do 1 hull point with no chance at exploding it. So, 0.66 to pass the nova, and an average of one glance per riptide pre shield means that if all 5 riptides fired at one knight, it would take 1.66 hull points from the riptides (ignoring drones because no one takes those).
Also, if the Tau player is going for a 3++ every turn, that means the riptides are effectively on.y 4.666w models because of the 1.333 wounds they take from nova charge failures (assuming 6 turns, means 2 fails and 1.33 wounds gets applied to the model).
And that overcharged HBC is 12 gets hot shots. It average it's 0.33 wounds from that alone.
HBC riptide that tries to overcharge every turn deals on average 3.33 select wounds in a game. And if he doesn't, he deals neglectible damage.
Really? 12 shots, on average 2 Gets Hot. I've already proven that you'll suffer a wound from a Gets Hot less than 2 percent of the time.
So how does 60 shots (5 game turns) times 2% give you 3.33? And exactly how is 4 fewer shots and no Rending "negligible"? I mean - obviously Flyrants are doing barely over negligible damage...
Nova fails, on average, once or twice a game.
Your math is just all wrong. Average course of a 6 turn game the riptide will fail 2 nova charges and take 1.333 wounds from those failures. During the successful nova charges, it will fire 48 gets hot shots, of which 8 will be ones, 1.333 will be ones after that, and .889 will be failed FNP rolls. That means the average HBC riptide during an average 6 turn game will lose 2.223 wounds to itself during the course of that game. That means the riptide really only has 3w that the opponents need to cause. This is of course ignoring the fact that most commanders wont nova-charge a 1w riptide for fear of losing it to a failed roll. [in reading further in the thread, I see this point has been made already]
Martel732 wrote: No, not at all. Even after their new codex, they are south of mediocre. No power builds. No exploitable combos. No truly powerful characters. No grav cents. No stormtalons. No TFCs.
They were outright unplayable before. Now they are just poor. The BA still stack up very unfavorably against Tau and Eldar.
I need to call you out on this one. No power builds? They can take a formation and assault from drop pods turn 1. Oh, and have 3 stormravens filled with marines. Dante is a damn beatstick and will cleave holes into entire squads of just about anything with his i6 s6 ap2 melee weapon. The sanguinary guard getting cheaper and bigger squads means they're mean as heck too. 10 man unit with Dante and a priest will jump around the board eating faces. Heavy flamers in tac squads is amazing because now 10-man squads aren't forced to split and have 5 members sit back while the other 5 advance.
I shoot them poison or ID them with psykers. Or I used to ID them with psykers. Now only Mephy can do it well, but he's in a lot of my lists. 3+ armor is very, very inferior to 2+ armor. That's why the Wraithknight sucks, imo. Wraithknights die to krak rockets; that's weak sauce there.
They die to krak missiles? How many? Lets find out. Assuming BS4 (marines) it will take 36 missiles to down one Wraithknight. 36 krak missiles at bs4 means 24 hits, 12 wounds, and 6 get thru the 4+ cover because who has ever seen a wraithknight without a toe in ruins? 36 missiles is 3 turns of devastator marines shooting without losing any members with launchers. All the heavy support slots for 3 turns to kill one.
And whoever said the Wraithknight was worse then the Riptide...either you have not played Eldar or did not play the Wraithknight correctly. The Wraithknight OWNS the Riptide easily most of the time.
QFT
Martel732 wrote: No, it's not. Its armor blocks half as many wounds and also penetrated by additional weapons. It also lacks 3++ save. Why do you think the WK is scary? It's very meh in my experience. Naked Sternguard make the WK very sad, whereas the Riptide laughs at naked Sternguard.
What? Naked sternguard do 3.704 wounds to a wraithknight in rapid fire range versus 1/2 that to the riptide. But why are we suddenly using naked sternguard as a measuring stick? All the sternguard I've seen are 2x melta 3x combi-melta in a pod. Math time!
5 melta shots against wraithknight with toe in ruins (because they always have toe in). 5 shots = 0.833 wounds to the wraithknight. That's terrible! Against the riptide it's much better. Since everyone always does math with Schrodinger's Riptide, lets roll with that. 5 melta shots against a 3++ FNP riptide will be 0.617 wounds. Even worse you say? Give it the same cover as the wraithknight instead of the 3++ and it's 0.926 wounds. Still terrible, but if it didn't take FNP (because it wanted skyfire/interceptor) thats 1.389 wounds. But still a higher % of wounds lost by the riptide than the wraithknight. All of those are pretty terrible. But lets say you know your list has a MC problem and you decide to use grav/combi-grav sternguards.
10 grav shots against a wraithknight will cause 2.222w to it. Those same 10 shots to the riptide will cause 1.235 against Schrodinger's Riptide, and 2.778w to a normal one (cover save 4+ no FNP)
Its not though, and you may be the only person I have heard or seen who claims the Wraithknight is outclassed by the Riptide.
Really? I find that very interesting. It's not even that close in my mind.
Wraithknight > Dreadknight > Riptide. The Dreadknights cost decrease made it better than the riptide, and the Wraithknight needs no support to go around a wreck stuff, while the riptide needs support from the rest of it's army. Also, the wraithknight is far harder to kill for most regular armies as the t8 boundary makes even plasma wound on 5's, while only needing 3's for riptides. Same story with melta.
My point is still the same. The Tau army forces people to change the way they play, and they don't like it. They want to be able to set marines on the table and have them run across and get into melee with stuff. That's not how the game is anymore. Transports are vital and the most important thing to countering the Tau gunline approach would be to make sure you are playing on tables with line of sight blocking terrain. It's really hard for Schrodinger's Riptide to force you to pick up all your models if it can't see to shoot. More terrain on a table favors assault armies, and less terrain favors shooting armies. The only 'broken' things in the Tau codex that need 'fixing' are the HYMP on the broadsides being the clear choice and not the sidegrade they were designed to be, and the IA being on the riptide instead of the hammerhead.
Wraith knights are close combat beasts....so typical they are moving forward. Plus 36 inch main guns kinda means they have to move forward. They can probably find cover mid feild but still rockets are very effective at killing wraith knights when they aren't in cover. Laz cannons are even better. Takes 40 Laz cannons at bs 4 to kill a riptide out in the open. Wraith knight only takes about 16 (very dooable.) Dread knight takes even less 10-11.
Lets take into account that dread knights and wraith knights are close combat oriented units with weapons 1/2 to 1/3 the range of a riptide yet the riptide more than twice as survivable?
Wraith knights are close combat beasts....so typical they are moving forward. Plus 36 inch main guns kinda means they have to move forward. They can probably find cover mid feild but still rockets are very effective at killing wraith knights when they aren't in cover. Laz cannons are even better. Takes 40 Laz cannons at bs 4 to kill a riptide out in the open. Wraith knight only takes about 16 (very dooable.) Dread knight takes even less 10-11.
Lets take into account that dread knights and wraith knights are close combat oriented units with weapons 1/2 to 1/3 the range of a riptide yet the riptide more than twice as survivable?
Whete do you get 40 shots for Riptide and 10-11 for Dreadknight
Are you by any chance comparing a Schrödinger's Riptide with FnP that succeeds every time on Nova Charge and always opts for 3+ to a Dreadknight that never uses Sanctuary?
BoomWolf wrote: I must admit this one also alludes me.
A wraithknight is stronger than IA riptide in every form.
Is it better PRE POINT? that's another question. but one-for-one there is no contest there.
Not to mention three wraiths to two tides.
No, it's not. Its armor blocks half as many wounds and also penetrated by additional weapons. It also lacks 3++ save. Why do you think the WK is scary? It's very meh in my experience. Naked Sternguard make the WK very sad, whereas the Riptide laughs at naked Sternguard.
I don't care who wins in a head to head. I'm talking vs all comers. The WK is not even close to the IA Riptide.
As said a bazilion times,not only 3++ is not a grantee, you have to set it up the previus turn (as in, you anticipated the attack to come ahead of even rolling for reserves and whatnot), and might hurt the riptide rather than shield it.
Also, while the riptides armor save blocks twice as much, its T value means nearly every weapon in the game deals twice as many wound, or more, that needs to be blocked to begin with.
AP3 weapons with S value of 5 or higher are NOT very common on the competitive level, nor is poison. but nearly anything else deals as much or more damage to riptide than to a wraithknight.
When you add the fact the wraithknight's gun outclasses the riptide's, he has more base wounds, he deals no self inflicted damage, he punks nearly anything CC (while the riptide is going to have a bad time against even tac marines) and he is all but immune to mental attacks (ld targeting weapons, moral checks, etc) while the riptide is about the most mental vulnerable MC in the game, per model-the wraithknight is far ahead.
With the FnP upgrade the riptide will be closer to the wraithknight's durability, even tougher in some cases-but the price gap will be very small assuming no other upgrades but ion (20 points, less than 10% of the price), and the wraithknight will still have superior firepower, superior mental defense and absurdly superior CC.
The wraithknight is, by all means, superior to the riptide. its only problem is the fact that he does not get supported as good as riptides can, but that ofcourse is additional points that are required.
And the fact he pays for both great firepower, and great CC-but can't really do both at once.
The IA riptide only wins at ranges, and on standard table 48" guns might as well be 60", it will hardly ever matter.
Wraith knights are close combat beasts....so typical they are moving forward. Plus 36 inch main guns kinda means they have to move forward. They can probably find cover mid feild but still rockets are very effective at killing wraith knights when they aren't in cover. Laz cannons are even better. Takes 40 Laz cannons at bs 4 to kill a riptide out in the open. Wraith knight only takes about 16 (very dooable.) Dread knight takes even less 10-11.
Lets take into account that dread knights and wraith knights are close combat oriented units with weapons 1/2 to 1/3 the range of a riptide yet the riptide more than twice as survivable?
Whete do you get 40 shots for Riptide and 10-11 for Dreadknight
Are you by any chance comparing a Schrödinger's Riptide with FnP that succeeds every time on Nova Charge and always opts for 3+ to a Dreadknight that never uses Sanctuary?
5 wounds 3++ save and 5+ FNP. Assuming you are str 8 ap 2 or better. The riptide only takes 22% of those wounds. Formula is simple - Riptide takes 22% of wounds 3+ save and 5+ fnp = 22% wounds taken. BS4 = 67% hit. 2+ to wound = 83% wound. .22 x .67 x .83 = .12% chance of a las cannon causing a wound. So it seems to me that youll need something in the order of 40 laz cannon shots to kill it.
Sound crazy? plug 40 laz cannon shots into the formula. youll find on average 40 laz canons wont kill a riptide. 40 x .667 x .833 x .33 x .66 = 4.92. so 40 laz cannons statistically will fail to bring down the rip which has 5 wounds.
40 laz cannons shots is comparable to a 1500 point marine army shooting at it for like 5 straight turns straight....You see now why 3 of them are basically impossible to kill.
^Math^ Previously posted
Dreadknight math - how many laz cannons to kill a dreadknight in the open.
BS4 x 2+ Wound x Chance to fail 5++ save
.67x .83 x .66 = 36.7 = chance for laz cannon wound on a dread knight in the open. So thats 1/3 laz cannon shots roughly causing a wound to a dread knight that has 4 wounds. So it's simple math to figure that 12 laz cannon shots will kill the dread knight from there. the 10 or 11 number I got was do to poor math in my head. 12 is correct.
BoomWolf wrote: I must admit this one also alludes me.
A wraithknight is stronger than IA riptide in every form.
Is it better PRE POINT? that's another question. but one-for-one there is no contest there.
Not to mention three wraiths to two tides.
No, it's not. Its armor blocks half as many wounds and also penetrated by additional weapons. It also lacks 3++ save. Why do you think the WK is scary? It's very meh in my experience. Naked Sternguard make the WK very sad, whereas the Riptide laughs at naked Sternguard.
I don't care who wins in a head to head. I'm talking vs all comers. The WK is not even close to the IA Riptide.
As said a bazilion times,not only 3++ is not a grantee, you have to set it up the previus turn (as in, you anticipated the attack to come ahead of even rolling for reserves and whatnot), and might hurt the riptide rather than shield it.
Also, while the riptides armor save blocks twice as much, its T value means nearly every weapon in the game deals twice as many wound, or more, that needs to be blocked to begin with.
AP3 weapons with S value of 5 or higher are NOT very common on the competitive level, nor is poison. but nearly anything else deals as much or more damage to riptide than to a wraithknight.
When you add the fact the wraithknight's gun outclasses the riptide's, he has more base wounds, he deals no self inflicted damage, he punks nearly anything CC (while the riptide is going to have a bad time against even tac marines) and he is all but immune to mental attacks (ld targeting weapons, moral checks, etc) while the riptide is about the most mental vulnerable MC in the game, per model-the wraithknight is far ahead.
With the FnP upgrade the riptide will be closer to the wraithknight's durability, even tougher in some cases-but the price gap will be very small assuming no other upgrades but ion (20 points, less than 10% of the price), and the wraithknight will still have superior firepower, superior mental defense and absurdly superior CC.
The wraithknight is, by all means, superior to the riptide. its only problem is the fact that he does not get supported as good as riptides can, but that ofcourse is additional points that are required.
And the fact he pays for both great firepower, and great CC-but can't really do both at once.
The IA riptide only wins at ranges, and on standard table 48" guns might as well be 60", it will hardly ever matter.
The argument is not is a wraithknight more OP than a riptide - they are both extremely OP units. 2 str 10 ap 2 distort weapons from a wraith knight - this is a joke of balance - this thing is armed like a titan at 240 points. Facing each other the wraithknight wins easily cause one 6 and it's gone. This doesn't change the fact that the riptide is unable to be removed with non eldar shooting in standard game length.
I wasn't contesting the actual math but rather the principle behind it: you're comparing a Riptide that nova- charges every round successfully and always uses the charge for 3++ with a Dreadknight that doesn't do the same (successfully use Sanctuary every round).
"I need to call you out on this one. No power builds? They can take a formation and assault from drop pods turn 1. Oh, and have 3 stormravens filled with marines. Dante is a damn beatstick and will cleave holes into entire squads of just about anything with his i6 s6 ap2 melee weapon. The sanguinary guard getting cheaper and bigger squads means they're mean as heck too. 10 man unit with Dante and a priest will jump around the board eating faces. Heavy flamers in tac squads is amazing because now 10-man squads aren't forced to split and have 5 members sit back while the other 5 advance. "
None of those builds can hold the jock strap of the power codices. Tau and Eldar can easily defeat the lists you just rattled off. Get real. Three Stormraven filled with lame tactical marines? Who is that scaring? Oh, yeah, that's right, NO ONE.
"All the sternguard I've seen are 2x melta 3x combi-melta in a pod. Math time! "
I never use melta suicide sternguard in a pod. Therefore, there are not a benchmark for me. Play marine players that don't throw their 30 pts models away foolishly.
"The wraithknight is, by all means, superior to the riptide."
No, it's not. The Wraitknight's ranged firepower can be safely ignored if necessary, or the thing can actually be killed.
"All the heavy support slots for 3 turns to kill one. "
Still faster than the Riptide.
"make sure you are playing on tables with line of sight blocking terrain."
There is no way to guarantee this, and my group doesn't play with very much LOS blocking terrain as a rule. I shouldn't have to cower behind hills and buildings and cardboard boxes to compete.
Martel732 wrote: "
There is no way to guarantee this, and my group doesn't play with very much LOS blocking terrain as a rule. I shouldn't have to cower behind hills and buildings and cardboard boxes to compete.
So you're playing vs. what's probably the shootiest army (both fluff and mechanics wise) on a table layout that puts shooting armies at an advantage and are surprised the shooting army is strong?
What did they recomend back in the 6th BRB, 25% terrain?
My group doesn't care. 6th ed is over, and 7th has no requirements. Even when there were, I don't think GW specified LOS vs non-LOS. I have a ton of cover, which the Eldar don't care about, and the Tau ignore. Useless. All useless, despite having 50% ish terrain.
They want "firing lanes", so the games are as fast as possible. Our tournaments also run with very little LoS blocking. Also, I can beat marine shooting armies because their output is poor without a Tiggystar.
So basically, I'm getting the standard "put out free arbitrarily placed painted cardboard boxes that shut down the Tau player's entire list, and then you have a chance!" Funny, I don't recall any opponents needing special terrain to beat my BA. Ever. Not even in 5th or even 3rd. Isn't needing a specific terrain setup against a foe the definition of an OP foe?
LordBlades wrote: I wasn't contesting the actual math but rather the principle behind it: you're comparing a Riptide that nova- charges every round successfully and always uses the charge for 3++ with a Dreadknight that doesn't do the same (successfully use Sanctuary every round).
Okay so a the riptide is actually - jumping behind LOS blocking terrain after firing at range 60" - It takes 0 DMG in this scenario. Or is standing toe in ruins cover with a 5+ FNP.
Riptide in ruins
.66x.83x.50x.66 = 18% chance at laz cannon wounds.
Dreadknight - Sanctuary (no perils)(no deny the witch)
.66x.83x.33 = 18% laz cannon wounds.
Still advantage riptide for + 1 wound.
That's really not a fair comparison though - ruins are rare in a competitive environment and for good reason - they are OP too. Typically they are placed deep in deployment zones. Riptides are far better suited to hug cover with their 60" gun and sanctuary is rarely on the budget for a grey knight player to cast on all of his knights. Plus the Rip can just hide behind LOS blocking terrain with assault phase move.
xsharkmanx wrote: @ rigeld2 and again im amused^^ we are clearly talking about the same definitions but pls take in you rconsideration that these flying monsters kost a lot less and are a lot more mobile.
They're not that much mobile. They move between 12 and 24" a turn but can only turn 90 degrees. A Riptide moves between 13 and 18 inches a turn, the majority of that in the Assault phase, and can move in any direction it wishes.
The Riptide doesn't move like that at all. It moves 6 in the movement phase then 2d6 in assault phase, meaning max movement is 8-18" a turn, not 13-18" a turn. (10-30" if you nova-charge for movement, but who does that?)
What's the average of 2d6? And then what's that added to the 6 in the movement phase? Thanks.
Dude if I had to put my money on 5 Imperial Knights vs. 5 Riptides... I would pick the riptides
Really? A total of 5 twinlinked melta shots, maybe some double tapping against 5 IK? I would love to see this fight because I don't think the Riptides really have the Firepower to take them down at range and stand no chance at all in CC.
Rending HBC shots will do more than you think. 12 shots, 6 hit, about a Rend (meaning a pen) per shot with a less than 2% chance to take a wound from Gets Hot. 5 Riptides with HBC, Fusion, FNP, and 1 Shielded Missile Drones (for the ablative wounds) costs 250 points. You add in 2 buffmanders and 2 sets of Broadsides as well as the Riptides and you're at 2k points. All that vs 5 IKs.
5 IK's is 1850, please compare apples to apples. Also, my head may have exploded when you suggested that Tau can take two sets of the same relic. That's just not a thing. Also, HBC riptides are garbage at taking down knights. They wont be able to hurt front armor unless they nova charge, and then they can only do 1 hull point with no chance at exploding it. So, 0.66 to pass the nova, and an average of one glance per riptide pre shield means that if all 5 riptides fired at one knight, it would take 1.66 hull points from the riptides (ignoring drones because no one takes those).
2 sets of the same relic? The list I was talking about was didn't use any of the Tau relics (iirc... I don't care enough to bring battlescribe back up) And why are all 5 Riptides in the shield arc again? And you're ignoring Fusion Blasters. But that's okay. Oh, and I was comparing apples to apples. Someone else mentioned 2k points, so that's what I ran with. (hence giving the IKs 150 points to play with - but you neglected to read that post).
Also, if the Tau player is going for a 3++ every turn, that means the riptides are effectively on.y 4.666w models because of the 1.333 wounds they take from nova charge failures (assuming 6 turns, means 2 fails and 1.33 wounds gets applied to the model).
And that overcharged HBC is 12 gets hot shots. It average it's 0.33 wounds from that alone. HBC riptide that tries to overcharge every turn deals on average 3.33 select wounds in a game. And if he doesn't, he deals neglectible damage.
Really? 12 shots, on average 2 Gets Hot. I've already proven that you'll suffer a wound from a Gets Hot less than 2 percent of the time. So how does 60 shots (5 game turns) times 2% give you 3.33? And exactly how is 4 fewer shots and no Rending "negligible"? I mean - obviously Flyrants are doing barely over negligible damage...
Nova fails, on average, once or twice a game.
Your math is just all wrong. Average course of a 6 turn game the riptide will fail 2 nova charges and take 1.333 wounds from those failures. During the successful nova charges, it will fire 48 gets hot shots, of which 8 will be ones, 1.333 will be ones after that, and .889 will be failed FNP rolls. That means the average HBC riptide during an average 6 turn game will lose 2.223 wounds to itself during the course of that game. That means the riptide really only has 3w that the opponents need to cause. This is of course ignoring the fact that most commanders wont nova-charge a 1w riptide for fear of losing it to a failed roll. [in reading further in the thread, I see this point has been made already]
Please explain how my quote is "all wrong". I responded to what I quoted - that 12 shots will result in .33 wounds. Your math has 12 shots resulting in .22 wounds, so your math doesn't agree with what I was responding to either.
Martel732 wrote: No, not at all. Even after their new codex, they are south of mediocre. No power builds. No exploitable combos. No truly powerful characters. No grav cents. No stormtalons. No TFCs.
They were outright unplayable before. Now they are just poor. The BA still stack up very unfavorably against Tau and Eldar.
I need to call you out on this one. No power builds? They can take a formation and assault from drop pods turn 1. Oh, and have 3 stormravens filled with marines. Dante is a damn beatstick and will cleave holes into entire squads of just about anything with his i6 s6 ap2 melee weapon. The sanguinary guard getting cheaper and bigger squads means they're mean as heck too. 10 man unit with Dante and a priest will jump around the board eating faces. Heavy flamers in tac squads is amazing because now 10-man squads aren't forced to split and have 5 members sit back while the other 5 advance.
3 Stormravens filled with Tac marines. Ooh scary.
My point is still the same. The Tau army forces people to change the way they play, and they don't like it.
No, this isn't a fact. I'm a Nid player - I have to essentially completely change tactics every time a new codex gets released - any codex.
Martel732 wrote: My group doesn't care. 6th ed is over, and 7th has no requirements. Even when there were, I don't think GW specified LOS vs non-LOS. I have a ton of cover, which the Eldar don't care about, and the Tau ignore. Useless. All useless, despite having 50% ish terrain.
They want "firing lanes", so the games are as fast as possible. Our tournaments also run with very little LoS blocking. Also, I can beat marine shooting armies because their output is poor without a Tiggystar.
So basically, I'm getting the standard "put out free arbitrarily placed painted cardboard boxes that shut down the Tau player's entire list, and then you have a chance!" Funny, I don't recall any opponents needing special terrain to beat my BA. Ever. Not even in 5th or even 3rd. Isn't needing a specific terrain setup against a foe the definition of an OP foe?
The more open a map is, the more the game is skewed toward shooting armies.
If the enemy army is shootier than yours, an open map plays to his advantage.
If you could beat the Tau easily on an open map (which is basicly stacking the deck in their favor) wouldn't Tau then be UP?
Martel732 wrote: My group doesn't care. 6th ed is over, and 7th has no requirements. Even when there were, I don't think GW specified LOS vs non-LOS. I have a ton of cover, which the Eldar don't care about, and the Tau ignore. Useless. All useless, despite having 50% ish terrain.
They want "firing lanes", so the games are as fast as possible. Our tournaments also run with very little LoS blocking. Also, I can beat marine shooting armies because their output is poor without a Tiggystar.
So basically, I'm getting the standard "put out free arbitrarily placed painted cardboard boxes that shut down the Tau player's entire list, and then you have a chance!" Funny, I don't recall any opponents needing special terrain to beat my BA. Ever. Not even in 5th or even 3rd. Isn't needing a specific terrain setup against a foe the definition of an OP foe?
The more open a map is, the more the game is skewed toward shooting armies.
If the enemy army is shootier than yours, an open map plays to his advantage.
If you could beat the Tau easily on an open map (which is basicly stacking the deck in their favor) wouldn't Tau then be UP?
No one said anything about easily. I'd settle for making them work hard at this point. Which they don't.
No one said anything about easily. I'd settle for making them work hard at this point. Which they don't.
Because you and your opponents give them a massive advantage.
That's not a fault with the Tau, it's a fault with the game you're playing.
You lose all validity for your complaints that your Blood Angels don't stand a chance when you then tell people that you use no LOS blocking terrain and are effectively running across an open field at a line of guns.
No one said anything about easily. I'd settle for making them work hard at this point. Which they don't.
Because you and your opponents give them a massive advantage.
That's not a fault with the Tau, it's a fault with the game you're playing.
You lose all validity for your complaints that your Blood Angels don't stand a chance when you then tell people that you use no LOS blocking terrain and are effectively running across an open field at a line of guns.
It's not open. I have cover that the Tau ignore. I think my complaints are even more valid since we are using around 50% terrain, but the Tau still butcher me. It's got to be the extra spiffy specific terrain? That looks really bad to me. All the Tau player has to do is veto all those board set ups which my play group has defacto already done.
No one said anything about easily. I'd settle for making them work hard at this point. Which they don't.
Because you and your opponents give them a massive advantage.
That's not a fault with the Tau, it's a fault with the game you're playing.
You lose all validity for your complaints that your Blood Angels don't stand a chance when you then tell people that you use no LOS blocking terrain and are effectively running across an open field at a line of guns.
It's not open. I have cover that the Tau ignore. I think my complaints are even more valid since we are using around 50% terrain, but the Tau still butcher me. It's got to be the extra spiffy specific terrain? That looks really bad to me. All the Tau player has to do is veto all those board set ups which my play group has defacto already done.
Technically you could also veto the biard set-ups that are advantageous to the Tau.
Also, what you are saying is that you'd like the Tau to be struggling under what's pretty much ideal conditions for them. Sorry, but that's pretty close to the definition of underpowered.
No one said anything about easily. I'd settle for making them work hard at this point. Which they don't.
Because you and your opponents give them a massive advantage.
That's not a fault with the Tau, it's a fault with the game you're playing.
You lose all validity for your complaints that your Blood Angels don't stand a chance when you then tell people that you use no LOS blocking terrain and are effectively running across an open field at a line of guns.
You know who benefits huge from line of sight blocking terrain? Tau....Specifically Riptides, and crisis suits. I'm not sure more cover is the answer for Martel. I think maybe a change of army to eldar or tau would suit him better.
Never. After all the hate in 5th, I'll never run the current hot list. And I only played Razor spam in 5th because BA jumpers were invalidated by so many other lists in 5th.
No one said anything about easily. I'd settle for making them work hard at this point. Which they don't.
Because you and your opponents give them a massive advantage.
That's not a fault with the Tau, it's a fault with the game you're playing.
You lose all validity for your complaints that your Blood Angels don't stand a chance when you then tell people that you use no LOS blocking terrain and are effectively running across an open field at a line of guns.
It's not open. I have cover that the Tau ignore. I think my complaints are even more valid since we are using around 50% terrain, but the Tau still butcher me. It's got to be the extra spiffy specific terrain? That looks really bad to me. All the Tau player has to do is veto all those board set ups which my play group has defacto already done.
Technically you could also veto the biard set-ups that are advantageous to the Tau.
Also, what you are saying is that you'd like the Tau to be struggling under what's pretty much ideal conditions for them. Sorry, but that's pretty close to the definition of underpowered.
So having to work to win is "struggling"? Like having your victories handed to you much?
So having to work to win is "struggling"? Like having your victories handed to you much?
You said 'work hard', which I interpreted as 'have a difficult game'. If that's not what you meant, then it's simply a misunderstanding.
Now, if Tau, on a table setup that favors them greatly should have a difficult game vs. BA (a codex which, by your own words is 'south of mediocre'), what should they do vs. a mediocre (or worse, above average) codex on a table setup that's balanced (or worse, disfavors the Tau) ?
So having to work to win is "struggling"? Like having your victories handed to you much?
You said 'work hard', which I interpreted as 'have a difficult game'. If that's not what you meant, then it's simply a misunderstanding.
Now, if Tau, on a table setup that favors them greatly should have a difficult game vs. BA (a codex which, by your own words is 'south of mediocre'), what should they do vs. a mediocre (or worse, above average) codex on a table setup that's balanced (or worse, disfavors the Tau) ?
All the best lists are shooting, though. The Tau and the rest of the power codices all benefit from having no LoS blocking terrain. The codices that deign to attempt assault are the ones that seem to be suffering the most.
Some of the Tau advantages are the game design. I bet if charge range was always 6" and first turn assault was possible Tau would plummet and people would still hate Tau.
Needless to say I am bored of this topic now.
I purchased a Tau army because I liked them, not because I though OP winning army, but threads like this make me wish I hadn't bothered. I feel like if I try to start playing the game again I'm just gonna get those looks and people are gone be like no you play Tau.
Maybe all the Tau hater should think about the other side of this the normal people who play the game with a mixture of units who get completely disheartened by these threads.
It's fairly destructive to the game if people aren't willing to just accept it's a game and get on with it.
Btw I don't have a gaming group and can't find enthusiasm to finish my Tau because I keep seeing hate threads that go into the 20s (this is far from the first).
I had planned on painting up the army and finding a group to enjoy the game, but feel like because I didn't choose an imperium army I'm suddenly like an untouchable and shouldn't bother. Although it seems more like its concentrated at Tau, I've yet to see an Eldar hate thread anywhere near this and they're openly considered the best army.
People complain about Tau because some Tau lists don't even let the other army play. Don't make lists like that, and your opponents shouldn't complain.
A big problem with the Tau design philosophy is to be so one dimensional, that when their list works, other lists don't get to do anything at all. Because the Tau absolutely do not want to be in assault.
Boniface wrote: Some of the Tau advantages are the game design. I bet if charge range was always 6" and first turn assault was possible Tau would plummet and people would still hate Tau.
Needless to say I am bored of this topic now.
I purchased a Tau army because I liked them, not because I though OP winning army, but threads like this make me wish I hadn't bothered. I feel like if I try to start playing the game again I'm just gonna get those looks and people are gone be like no you play Tau.
Maybe all the Tau hater should think about the other side of this the normal people who play the game with a mixture of units who get completely disheartened by these threads.
It's fairly destructive to the game if people aren't willing to just accept it's a game and get on with it.
Btw I don't have a gaming group and can't find enthusiasm to finish my Tau because I keep seeing hate threads that go into the 20s (this is far from the first).
I had planned on painting up the army and finding a group to enjoy the game, but feel like because I didn't choose an imperium army I'm suddenly like an untouchable and shouldn't bother. Although it seems more like its concentrated at Tau, I've yet to see an Eldar hate thread anywhere near this and they're openly considered the best army.
This thread is about balance. Balance is important to table top games that take 4 hours to play. No one will complain if you aren't spamming riptides man - which is what this thread is about. Tau players don't want to see their OP indestructible battle suit nerfed because winning every game is a lot of fun but it's not fun for the other guy. Destroying entire squads from 60 inches away while shrugging off heavy amounts of firepower is fun for some people. For me after 3-4 of these games I'd have to put the riptides away. Most of my friends in my gaming group are of the same opinions - many used to play eldar and they are now shelved because they are "too powerful" I know it's crazy but eldar are so OP it's not even worth talking about. They only come up in nerf tau threads because tau is borderline with eldar with riptide spam.
Don't be discouraged though - just don't spam riptides. You can find a group easy- and most people that play this game are super friendly and want both parties to have fun - unlike most of the dakka fourmers.
Boniface wrote: Some of the Tau advantages are the game design. I bet if charge range was always 6" and first turn assault was possible Tau would plummet and people would still hate Tau.
Needless to say I am bored of this topic now.
I purchased a Tau army because I liked them, not because I though OP winning army, but threads like this make me wish I hadn't bothered. I feel like if I try to start playing the game again I'm just gonna get those looks and people are gone be like no you play Tau.
Maybe all the Tau hater should think about the other side of this the normal people who play the game with a mixture of units who get completely disheartened by these threads.
It's fairly destructive to the game if people aren't willing to just accept it's a game and get on with it.
Btw I don't have a gaming group and can't find enthusiasm to finish my Tau because I keep seeing hate threads that go into the 20s (this is far from the first).
I had planned on painting up the army and finding a group to enjoy the game, but feel like because I didn't choose an imperium army I'm suddenly like an untouchable and shouldn't bother. Although it seems more like its concentrated at Tau, I've yet to see an Eldar hate thread anywhere near this and they're openly considered the best army.
Its the internet buddy..it thrives on negativity..in reality players in person don't really care..paint and model them to your best..make the army you want to play..and find some RL people to game with..and avoid these threads like the plague.. Tau hate has been around since they shook up the grimdarkness...people hated on them for their concept..their looks..and rules..even when they were the bottom of the barrel mechanics wise.
And now since they can be nasty..and are not easily delt with or have a no easy solution unit..well that fuels the same dislike even more...
But its the internet forum..and people love to complain..meh
Check out my gallery I have plenty of Tau custom goodness there...and have played this stuff since the 80s..its a great hobby just don't let the negative nellies get to you.
Boniface wrote: Some of the Tau advantages are the game design. I bet if charge range was always 6" and first turn assault was possible Tau would plummet and people would still hate Tau.
Needless to say I am bored of this topic now.
I purchased a Tau army because I liked them, not because I though OP winning army, but threads like this make me wish I hadn't bothered. I feel like if I try to start playing the game again I'm just gonna get those looks and people are gone be like no you play Tau.
Maybe all the Tau hater should think about the other side of this the normal people who play the game with a mixture of units who get completely disheartened by these threads.
It's fairly destructive to the game if people aren't willing to just accept it's a game and get on with it.
Btw I don't have a gaming group and can't find enthusiasm to finish my Tau because I keep seeing hate threads that go into the 20s (this is far from the first).
I had planned on painting up the army and finding a group to enjoy the game, but feel like because I didn't choose an imperium army I'm suddenly like an untouchable and shouldn't bother. Although it seems more like its concentrated at Tau, I've yet to see an Eldar hate thread anywhere near this and they're openly considered the best army.
This thread is about balance. Balance is important to table top games that take 4 hours to play. No one will complain if you aren't spamming riptides man - which is what this thread is about. Tau players don't want to see their OP indestructible battle suit nerfed because winning every game is a lot of fun but it's not fun for the other guy. Destroying entire squads from 60 inches away while shrugging off heavy amounts of firepower is fun for some people. For me after 3-4 of these games I'd have to put the riptides away. Most of my friends in my gaming group are of the same opinions - many used to play eldar and they are now shelved because they are "too powerful" I know it's crazy but eldar are so OP it's not even worth talking about. They only come up in nerf tau threads because tau is borderline with eldar with riptide spam.
Don't be discouraged though - just don't spam riptides. You can find a group easy- and most people that play this game are super friendly and want both parties to have fun - unlike most of the dakka fourmers.
Have you actually read anything "Tau players who dont want their OP indestructile battlesuit" have actually wrote?
Every. single. one. outright states that the IA is TOO GOOD.
The IA itself is, not the riptide without it. because the IA riptide is kicking asses left and right, and the HBC riptide is simple good.
Good enough to be viable-but not too good to dominate any scene, not too good to "invalidate strategies" as its often blamed for, and not too good to justify a nerf.
Wraith knights are close combat beasts....so typical they are moving forward. Plus 36 inch main guns kinda means they have to move forward. They can probably find cover mid feild but still rockets are very effective at killing wraith knights when they aren't in cover. Laz cannons are even better. Takes 40 Laz cannons at bs 4 to kill a riptide out in the open. Wraith knight only takes about 16 (very dooable.) Dread knight takes even less 10-11.
Lets take into account that dread knights and wraith knights are close combat oriented units with weapons 1/2 to 1/3 the range of a riptide yet the riptide more than twice as survivable?
Whete do you get 40 shots for Riptide and 10-11 for Dreadknight
Are you by any chance comparing a Schrödinger's Riptide with FnP that succeeds every time on Nova Charge and always opts for 3+ to a Dreadknight that never uses Sanctuary?
Yes. he is.no question about it.
The wraithknight also seems to have forgotten he can have an invul save, and has 4 wounds rather than 6 (because with no invul and shooting at out-of-cover wraithknight, it takes 18, not 16. with the invul-its eating 27 hits., 16 fits a 5++ at 4 wounds.)
The riptide, assuming normal situation AND fnp can soak up 20.25, not 40 and in fact LESS than wraithknight. WTIH 3+ invul it really is the incredible 40.5, but as stated over ten times already by me alone-it requires setup the turn before its getting shoot at, and has a 33% that it will inflict a (no-save) wound on the riptide rather than boost its defense, actually REDUCING its durability rather than increasing it to soak up just 16.2 (what the wraithknight was falsely said to have. interesting isn't it?)
And yes, the price difference goes even higher when its the suncannons+shield setup. but that's the flaw of being good at every single aspect of the game making you cost alot. riptides are good at mobility, shooting and soaking shots. they suck at moral (the WORST MC in moral, by far) suck at CC attacks (pretty sure its the worst here too) and it never survives CC because it sucks at dishing CC, and sucks at moral, so he takes a single wound, deals nothing back, flees and gets runned down. by most basic infantry in the game.
And yet, we still claim outright that the IA version is too good, despite its flaws, because its too good at shooting and soaking shots (the HBC is worse at both, from reasons I made freaking books worthy of calculations and analysis so far explaining it across dozens of threads and I will NOT go into it again. and yes, switching a gun can reduce your ability to survive being shot at if you can think on the bigger scheme and a game's worth of actions rather than simple looking at a single roll of Schrodinger's riptide.) but saying two of them are better than three wraithknights (it WAS said here) is being either hateful, or simply stupid.
And than they wonder why every time "tau OP/riptide OP" threads come up we treat them with suspicion and anger. because they are using such obvious biased claims that often border balant lies, ignore every piece of information that is countering their point as if its not relevant (even when its as huge as "CC god vs CC chum") and in general have made a desicion before even having any facts.
Heck, I've lost count on how many times I had to explain to people how the rules of the riptide actually work, let alone their interactions and side-effects, yet they still thought they know better than me just how balance or imbalance they are despite the fact they had no clue what the actual rules are.
I said I'd rather face three wraithknights than two Riptides based off my experiences with both Wraithknights and Riptides. One big reason: fewer points for WS. Two Riptides, used properly, will burn down most of my list before the game is over.
Martel732 wrote: Two Riptides, used properly, will burn down most of my list before the game is over.
Because you play on very bad fields. Your personal experience is very very skewed because you insist on using terrain that will never benefit you and refuse to ask your opponents, who apparently can't understand that not every unit needs across the board LOS, that some larger LOS blocking pieces are needed.
You may as well complain about a game where your opponent is controlling your movement phase as well because you are purposefully handing your opponent complete control of the game.
Many people seem to believe that LOS blocking helps the move shoot jump units in the Tau list. I'm not convinced that LOS would change the out come against Tau that much. They only need a couple good looks.
Martel732 wrote: I'm not convinced that LOS would change the out come against Tau that much.
If you give them stuff to hide behind only, then yes only they benefit from it.
If you give something that covers even a 1/3 of the field from being scene by the other 2/3 then you're not going to get shot by every Riptide all the time as you work your way down field.
This isn't rocketscience.
I can vouch for it. As a Tau player I have HUGE problems with people sneaking CC units across field with LOS terrain.
Martel732 wrote: I'm not convinced that LOS would change the out come against Tau that much.
If you give them stuff to hide behind only, then yes only they benefit from it. If you give something that covers even a 1/3 of the field from being scene by the other 2/3 then you're not going to get shot by every Riptide all the time as you work your way down field. This isn't rocketscience. I can vouch for it. As a Tau player I have HUGE problems with people sneaking CC units across field with LOS terrain.
Plus even if the units can JSJ you're actually making them move, rather than just sit back and plug away.
When it comes to jumping back into cover or over terrain, they're at the mercy of the dice gods. One bad roll can leave an expensive unit of XV8s or a Riptide out in the open.
And out in the open an XV8 dies as easily as 2 Marines. Riptides are tough but if you catch them out without a Nova'd Invulnerable and in the sights of some meltas or Lascannons, they're going to get seriously hurt.
Martel732 wrote: I'm not convinced that LOS would change the out come against Tau that much.
If you give them stuff to hide behind only, then yes only they benefit from it.
If you give something that covers even a 1/3 of the field from being scene by the other 2/3 then you're not going to get shot by every Riptide all the time as you work your way down field.
This isn't rocketscience.
I can vouch for it. As a Tau player I have HUGE problems with people sneaking CC units across field with LOS terrain.
Plus even if the units can JSJ you're actually making them move, rather than just sit back and plug away.
When it comes to jumping back into cover or over terrain, they're at the mercy of the dice gods. One bad roll can leave an expensive unit of XV8s or a Riptide out in the open.
And out in the open an XV8 dies as easily as 2 Marines. Riptides are tough but if you catch them out without a Nova'd Invulnerable and in the sights of some meltas or Lascannons, they're going to get seriously hurt.
Too bad hurting them doesn't actually affect their performance any. Tell me, what stops the Tau player from just shooting everything at what they can see, obliterating that part of the list with overwhelming firepower, and then as the other elements are forced to expose themselves from behind the LOS blocking terrain, doing the same?
The main problem I have with the "board" argument is that I'm not being vaporized against Orks or DE.
Martel732 wrote: I'm not convinced that LOS would change the out come against Tau that much.
If you give them stuff to hide behind only, then yes only they benefit from it.
If you give something that covers even a 1/3 of the field from being scene by the other 2/3 then you're not going to get shot by every Riptide all the time as you work your way down field.
This isn't rocketscience.
I can vouch for it. As a Tau player I have HUGE problems with people sneaking CC units across field with LOS terrain.
Plus even if the units can JSJ you're actually making them move, rather than just sit back and plug away.
When it comes to jumping back into cover or over terrain, they're at the mercy of the dice gods. One bad roll can leave an expensive unit of XV8s or a Riptide out in the open.
And out in the open an XV8 dies as easily as 2 Marines. Riptides are tough but if you catch them out without a Nova'd Invulnerable and in the sights of some meltas or Lascannons, they're going to get seriously hurt.
Not to threadjack, but I have to ask -- is your forum name a reference to the Jam?
Martel732 wrote: I'm not convinced that LOS would change the out come against Tau that much.
If you give them stuff to hide behind only, then yes only they benefit from it.
If you give something that covers even a 1/3 of the field from being scene by the other 2/3 then you're not going to get shot by every Riptide all the time as you work your way down field.
This isn't rocketscience.
I can vouch for it. As a Tau player I have HUGE problems with people sneaking CC units across field with LOS terrain.
Plus even if the units can JSJ you're actually making them move, rather than just sit back and plug away.
When it comes to jumping back into cover or over terrain, they're at the mercy of the dice gods. One bad roll can leave an expensive unit of XV8s or a Riptide out in the open.
And out in the open an XV8 dies as easily as 2 Marines. Riptides are tough but if you catch them out without a Nova'd Invulnerable and in the sights of some meltas or Lascannons, they're going to get seriously hurt.
Too bad hurting them doesn't actually affect their performance any. Tell me, what stops the Tau player from just shooting everything at what they can see, obliterating that part of the list with overwhelming firepower, and then as the other elements are forced to expose themselves from behind the LOS blocking terrain, doing the same?
The main problem I have with the "board" argument is that I'm not being vaporized against Orks or DE.
So then, what it basically boils down to is you win against Orks and DE, so they're fine, but you lose to Tau, so they need to be weakened so that you can beat them as well?
I have played both as and against Tau, and yes, you need to play smarter than "Chaaaaarge!!!" against them. Which is a good thing.
I find it a little depressing that the reason you think they need to be weakened is that defeating them requires thought.
Too bad hurting them doesn't actually affect their performance any. Tell me, what stops the Tau player from just shooting everything at what they can see, obliterating that part of the list with overwhelming firepower, and then as the other elements are forced to expose themselves from behind the LOS blocking terrain, doing the same?
Your own movement. If you have terrain so their forces are split 1:2 (ie 2/3 of their army can't see what the last 1/3 can) then you can slam hard into the 1/3 of their army that is cut off from the support of the rest.
Of course you'll need to have something to keep the other 2/3 busy so they can't just relocate to where they can see your main attack. This is where some fast units or drop pod units can come in handy to keep them tied up shooting these weaker/distraction elements whilst the main force moves in to take out the weaker side then roll round and finish off the rest.
So, for example, you could drop pod in a unit with lots of flamers in a position where they'll be able to get out and get right up to a unit of fire warriors or two (if they're castling up to maximise support fire then they're also typically pretty close together). So now that you're at the end of the movement phase the Riptide uses it's EWO to try and hit you with interceptor, but can't get the large blast on you as you're too close to the fire warriors, so it has to use the less scary 3 shots at BS3, killing 1 marine. Now it's your shooting turn and you unload those flamers into the bunched up units of fire warriors.
Meanwhile you could drop an empty pod in the way of their other units to further block LOS and annoy them with stormbolter fire and have the main brunt of your force charge up the board towards the weaker side of the Tau forces. Use Rhinos as mobile LOS blockers whilst they turbo towards the enemy, followed by jump pack assault marines. If the Rhinos get wrecked then whatever units were inside keep moving and running forwards. Once you get close enough you jump the assault marines over the unit in front, then declare a charge with the tac (or whatever unit) unit behind before declaring the charge with the assault marines.
Tau player now has to choose whether to overwatch the tac unit or hold off and hope it doesn't get into combat so they can overwatch the assault marines with maximum firepower. Best case scenario you manage to multi assault with the tac unit to lock up units then join in with the assault unit.
Too bad hurting them doesn't actually affect their performance any. Tell me, what stops the Tau player from just shooting everything at what they can see, obliterating that part of the list with overwhelming firepower, and then as the other elements are forced to expose themselves from behind the LOS blocking terrain, doing the same?
Your own movement. If you have terrain so their forces are split 1:2 (ie 2/3 of their army can't see what the last 1/3 can) then you can slam hard into the 1/3 of their army that is cut off from the support of the rest.
Of course you'll need to have something to keep the other 2/3 busy so they can't just relocate to where they can see your main attack. This is where some fast units or drop pod units can come in handy to keep them tied up shooting these weaker/distraction elements whilst the main force moves in to take out the weaker side then roll round and finish off the rest.
So, for example, you could drop pod in a unit with lots of flamers in a position where they'll be able to get out and get right up to a unit of fire warriors or two (if they're castling up to maximise support fire then they're also typically pretty close together). So now that you're at the end of the movement phase the Riptide uses it's EWO to try and hit you with interceptor, but can't get the large blast on you as you're too close to the fire warriors, so it has to use the less scary 3 shots at BS3, killing 1 marine. Now it's your shooting turn and you unload those flamers into the bunched up units of fire warriors.
Meanwhile you could drop an empty pod in the way of their other units to further block LOS and annoy them with stormbolter fire and have the main brunt of your force charge up the board towards the weaker side of the Tau forces.
2/3 of an army not being able to see me is never going to happen. I'll tell you that now. I'm against like nine other players on this. That's not happening. Let's say I got them to agree to LOS blocking to block 1/3 of his list, 2/3 of Tau army is still crippling fire. They are just so good at what they do and being weak in assault is like a non-disadvantage in 7th.
Martel732 wrote: I'm not convinced that LOS would change the out come against Tau that much.
If you give them stuff to hide behind only, then yes only they benefit from it.
If you give something that covers even a 1/3 of the field from being scene by the other 2/3 then you're not going to get shot by every Riptide all the time as you work your way down field.
This isn't rocketscience.
I can vouch for it. As a Tau player I have HUGE problems with people sneaking CC units across field with LOS terrain.
Plus even if the units can JSJ you're actually making them move, rather than just sit back and plug away.
When it comes to jumping back into cover or over terrain, they're at the mercy of the dice gods. One bad roll can leave an expensive unit of XV8s or a Riptide out in the open.
And out in the open an XV8 dies as easily as 2 Marines. Riptides are tough but if you catch them out without a Nova'd Invulnerable and in the sights of some meltas or Lascannons, they're going to get seriously hurt.
Too bad hurting them doesn't actually affect their performance any. Tell me, what stops the Tau player from just shooting everything at what they can see, obliterating that part of the list with overwhelming firepower, and then as the other elements are forced to expose themselves from behind the LOS blocking terrain, doing the same?
The main problem I have with the "board" argument is that I'm not being vaporized against Orks or DE.
So then, what it basically boils down to is you win against Orks and DE, so they're fine, but you lose to Tau, so they need to be weakened so that you can beat them as well?
I have played both as and against Tau, and yes, you need to play smarter than "Chaaaaarge!!!" against them. Which is a good thing.
I find it a little depressing that the reason you think they need to be weakened is that defeating them requires thought.
Funny thing. I was gonna say that it's depressing that Tau players don't want their victories to require thought. How much easier does it get than telling me which unit to put back in the model case? If you think you can beat Orks or DE with BA without thought, I welcome you to try.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll also say that my games against Tau are much closer than my Eldar games. So they are far from the worst. But "closer" is still not very close to victory. I'll cause more damage against Tau, but the Riptides can not be overcome.
If the group you play against does not allow LOS blocking terrain just so they can have a shooting gallery, it might be time find a new group to play with.
Funny thing. I was gonna say that it's depressing that Tau players don't want their victories to require thought.
Wow. I'm sure insulting Tau players will really lend you some credence in the thread. Sure ignore the advice we give you about TERRIBLE table set up and just assume that our games don't require us to think.
Funny thing. I was gonna say that it's depressing that Tau players don't want their victories to require thought.
Wow. I'm sure insulting Tau players will really lend you some credence in the thread. Sure ignore the advice we give you about TERRIBLE table set up and just assume that our games don't require us to think.
I didn't go there first. A Tau player did. One that clearly has no clue what an uphill battle most matchups are for BA. Even loyalist marines are a nightmare because of Tiggystar. Which they all have, of course. I'm almost as sick of Tiggy as Riptides.
From what I've seen, Tau players mostly following a firing algorithm of target priorities. If the algorithm breaks down for some reason, that's when I see them lose. But throwing them off with marines is difficult because of low model count and low firepower.
Martel732 wrote: One that clearly has no clue what an uphill battle most matchups are for BA. Even loyalist marines are a nightmare because of Tiggystar.
So you have a lower tier army. And you want one of the higher tier ones brought down to the lower tier rather than your lower tier brought up or balance established?
You do realize we've already tried to explain how to help balance the game? What better way to break up the "target algorithm" than to put units out of LOS?
But you're insisting/implying that ALL Tau games are entirely one sided and that Tau can win any game without thinking.
No, I've seen Tau struggle mightily against Eldar, Demons, and Tiggy star lists filled with grav. And those are on the kinds of tables I play on.
It's very frustrating that some lists require special tables against Tau and others can just throw it all down on any table and do just fine.
Also, if you haven't noticed the last few codices GW put out, the only hope that group has is for others to be nerfed. Because most of them don't have WS or Riptide equivalent units in terms of effectiveness.
Boniface wrote: Some of the Tau advantages are the game design. I bet if charge range was always 6" and first turn assault was possible Tau would plummet and people would still hate Tau.
Needless to say I am bored of this topic now.
I purchased a Tau army because I liked them, not because I though OP winning army, but threads like this make me wish I hadn't bothered. I feel like if I try to start playing the game again I'm just gonna get those looks and people are gone be like no you play Tau.
Maybe all the Tau hater should think about the other side of this the normal people who play the game with a mixture of units who get completely disheartened by these threads.
It's fairly destructive to the game if people aren't willing to just accept it's a game and get on with it.
Btw I don't have a gaming group and can't find enthusiasm to finish my Tau because I keep seeing hate threads that go into the 20s (this is far from the first).
I had planned on painting up the army and finding a group to enjoy the game, but feel like because I didn't choose an imperium army I'm suddenly like an untouchable and shouldn't bother. Although it seems more like its concentrated at Tau, I've yet to see an Eldar hate thread anywhere near this and they're openly considered the best army.
This is unfortunetly why my Tau are sitting on a shelf as well. They are the most hated army when everything they do, eldar do it better. I have noticed in about every Tau hate thread that the whining parties always say they play with firing lane or with as little cover as possible. 40k in it's current edition favors the mobile army that can shoot well and do decent in assaults. That is why SM and Eldar are on the top consistently. The new Nids are probably top teir now as well when FW is included (dem Malanthropes )
Funny thing. I was gonna say that it's depressing that Tau players don't want their victories to require thought.
Wow. I'm sure insulting Tau players will really lend you some credence in the thread. Sure ignore the advice we give you about TERRIBLE table set up and just assume that our games don't require us to think.
I didn't go there first. A Tau player did. One that clearly has no clue what an uphill battle most matchups are for BA. Even loyalist marines are a nightmare because of Tiggystar. Which they all have, of course. I'm almost as sick of Tiggy as Riptides.
From what I've seen, Tau players mostly following a firing algorithm of target priorities. If the algorithm breaks down for some reason, that's when I see them lose. But throwing them off with marines is difficult because of low model count and low firepower.
I'm actually not really a Tau player, I've played as them because one of my friends like to switch armies every few games to make things more interesting. Most of the games going against them were using Grey Knights. You want to complain about a low model count army? Try taking an army that's mostly paladins against them. However I won as often as I lost because I would use the terrain and the Tau's weaknesses against them. Target priority is a thing against every army, including Tau. If you're having problems with them ignoring cover and shooting accurately, take out the squishy pathfinders.
If anything, the new BA are great against them, essentially a hard counter if you use the right builds. The ability to deepstrike from reserves, and if you take drop pods along with the formation, do so first turn should, and does, scare the hell out of the Tau. They want you to walk slowly across the table so that they can whittle you down. If I could pick any single army to ruin a Tau player's day it would be BA.
Edit: Your problem seems to be that you're fighting your opponent in a way that gives them all of the benefits, and then complaining when you lose. The whole point of the game is to avoid that. You act as if getting into combat with Tau is impossible, which it likely is if you walk across a barren field to get to them. Drop pods into their midst, take fast moving warriors like jump infantry. If the Fire Warriors are all grouping together to make the most of supporting fire, template the hell out of them. Fire warriors, ironically, are not fans of flamers or heavy flamers, which BA conveniently have access to on their tactical marines.
The Riptide doesn't move like that at all. It moves 6 in the movement phase then 2d6 in assault phase, meaning max movement is 8-18" a turn, not 13-18" a turn. (10-30" if you nova-charge for movement, but who does that?)
What's the average of 2d6? And then what's that added to the 6 in the movement phase? Thanks.
Sure, lets take the average and max and give that out as the baseline, when the full range is what actually is needed to understand the model fully. Saying it can move 13"-18" a turn is being dishonest when the actual range of possible movement is 8-18".
2 sets of the same relic? The list I was talking about was didn't use any of the Tau relics (iirc... I don't care enough to bring battlescribe back up)
And why are all 5 Riptides in the shield arc again? And you're ignoring Fusion Blasters. But that's okay. Oh, and I was comparing apples to apples. Someone else mentioned 2k points, so that's what I ran with. (hence giving the IKs 150 points to play with - but you neglected to read that post).
You said 2 buffmanders. The buffmander carries 2-3 relics in order to buff his squad, therefore 2 is completely illogical. And I ignored fusion blasters because they will never be in melta range, because if they are the riptide gets removed next turn due to S: D CC attacks.
Also, if the Tau player is going for a 3++ every turn, that means the riptides are effectively on.y 4.666w models because of the 1.333 wounds they take from nova charge failures (assuming 6 turns, means 2 fails and 1.33 wounds gets applied to the model).
Oh... kay?
I actually did bad math there. It's only a 3.333w model if you nova every turn. For some silly reason I subtracted the 1.333w it takes from 6 instead of 5.
And that overcharged HBC is 12 gets hot shots. It average it's 0.33 wounds from that alone.
HBC riptide that tries to overcharge every turn deals on average 3.33 select wounds in a game. And if he doesn't, he deals negligible damage.
Really? 12 shots, on average 2 Gets Hot. I've already proven that you'll suffer a wound from a Gets Hot less than 2 percent of the time.
So how does 60 shots (5 game turns) times 2% give you 3.33? And exactly how is 4 fewer shots and no Rending "negligible"? I mean - obviously Flyrants are doing barely over negligible damage...
Nova fails, on average, once or twice a game.
Your math is just all wrong. Average course of a 6 turn game the riptide will fail 2 nova charges and take 1.333 wounds from those failures. During the successful nova charges, it will fire 48 gets hot shots, of which 8 will be ones, 1.333 will be ones after that, and .889 will be failed FNP rolls. That means the average HBC riptide during an average 6 turn game will lose 2.223 wounds to itself during the course of that game. That means the riptide really only has 3w that the opponents need to cause. This is of course ignoring the fact that most commanders wont nova-charge a 1w riptide for fear of losing it to a failed roll. [in reading further in the thread, I see this point has been made already]
Please explain how my quote is "all wrong". I responded to what I quoted - that 12 shots will result in .33 wounds. Your math has 12 shots resulting in .22 wounds, so your math doesn't agree with what I was responding to either.
My math was assuming Schrodinger's Riptide with FNP, hence the .22 instead of the .33 you get. With no FNP I also get the .33w per firing phase, for a total of 2.778% chance per shot fired (1.852% with FNP). It also was combining the gets hot rolls for 48 shots (4 nova successful) with the 2 failed nova's, for the total of 3.33w to itself. That means the opponent only needs to deal 2w to finish it off. This is why the HBC option is never taken. It's just too risky.
Mulletdude wrote:
"make sure you are playing on tables with line of sight blocking terrain."
There is no way to guarantee this, and my group doesn't play with very much LOS blocking terrain as a rule. I shouldn't have to cower behind hills and buildings and cardboard boxes to compete.
Have you seen the game boards GW uses in their battle reports? They have almost 50% coverage and there are TONS of line of sight blocking. If your game are has poor terrain and the meta has shifted to shooting armies, they need to be forced to work for it by not being able to use their guns every turn. In 5th the BA were okay because there really wasn't the firepower there is in the game today.
mulletdude wrote:My point is still the same. The Tau army forces people to change the way they play, and they don't like it.
No, this isn't a fact. I'm a Nid player - I have to essentially completely change tactics every time a new codex gets released - any codex.
Nids need less changing now that all the extra models and rules have come out for them. Being able to get 3 flyrants for almost no troop tax is quite formidable, and the Malanthrope is exactly what they need to walk up the board and survive doing so.
I never use melta suicide sternguard in a pod. Therefore, there are not a benchmark for me. Play marine players that don't throw their 30 pts models away foolishly.
I play against a lot of good players in my area. Turns out having a squad of 30pt marines that can point, click, and delete a tank or ID a bunch of stuff is worth 30pts a model.
Funny thing. I was gonna say that it's depressing that Tau players don't want their victories to require thought.
Wow. I'm sure insulting Tau players will really lend you some credence in the thread. Sure ignore the advice we give you about TERRIBLE table set up and just assume that our games don't require us to think.
I didn't go there first. A Tau player did. One that clearly has no clue what an uphill battle most matchups are for BA. Even loyalist marines are a nightmare because of Tiggystar. Which they all have, of course. I'm almost as sick of Tiggy as Riptides.
From what I've seen, Tau players mostly following a firing algorithm of target priorities. If the algorithm breaks down for some reason, that's when I see them lose. But throwing them off with marines is difficult because of low model count and low firepower.
Can we get an example list from you? Maybe your problem against Tau is a simple listbuilding problem instead of something else. And the target priority thing you said is completely true. The way to exploit this is taking a lot of things that need to be dealt with, there by overloading their target priority.
Another issue: I don't know the enemy codex before the game, so I can't list tailor in anyway. I have to prepare for Orks, Nids, CSM, Tau, Eldar, etc.
My current list has very few templates, because against MOST lists, I can live without the templates. I usually only use one drop pod, because I don't like that style of play, and there are just as many lists I don't want to deploy via pod as there are cases where it would be advantageous.
Martel732 wrote: Another issue: I don't know the enemy codex before the game, so I can't list tailor in anyway. I have to prepare for Orks, Nids, CSM, Tau, Eldar, etc.
My current list has very few templates, because against MOST lists, I can live without the templates. I usually only use one drop pod, because I don't like that style of play, and there are just as many lists I don't want to deploy via pod as there are cases where it would be advantageous.
Templates handle Orks, Nids, Tau, and Eldar infantry really well. Heck, even scouts get burned out by the heavy flamer, and anything space marine cringes at the heavy2 s6 rending frag cannon from the furioso. I've had good success when using 3 frag cannon dreads and 2 squads of ASM with melta in pods. This setup is dirt cheap (725 pts) and 5 pods guarentees you get 3 on turn 1, and that can be devastating against many armies.
From what I see, he insists on playing with lists that do not take any of the vast numbers of tools that punish tau gunline tactics, plays on the terrain setup that is most absurdly biased in favor of shooting armies.
And he then say its OP.
Maybe, just MAYBE you should try actually taking the tool intened to fight the very lists you claim kick your ass, and play on a field not completely in their favor. do you see any real-world general that says "well, I need to take down a tank convoy, so I'll go at them in the open field with light machine guns."?
NO! you bring the godamn tools for the job and pick your fighitng zones. yes, in a game both players "pick their zone", so the table should be somewhat balanced for a good game, but your games are tilted so far its not even funny!
Heck, I play tau and I would refuse to play such an empty board. my buddie's board we place like 3-4 big building around around (admittedly some cardboard), several small one on top of multiple forests, craters, fencese, sandbags, etc. and we get bummered that we don't have more, and work on increasing the numbers despite the fact we are pretty much all shooting armies, and thrive in coverless tables.
In our local shop we even place neutral bunkers, gun emplacements and such from time to time.
Ever time I see a batrep with zero terrain, or a tau-hate topic when it reveals that there is no terrain, I just want to facepalm. these guys are literally not playing 40k.
"Shooting gallery" games end on the statagic level once you have done listbuilding.
Do e really need to bring back the "how to terrain" rules from 6th? they made a table have in total 6d3 "pieces", where a piece is a forest/BUILDING/a cluster of small stuff, its ALOT.
The 7th unfortunatly settles in saying "the more the better", and I don't recall ever seeing a picture of a battlezone from GW that did not include heavy terrain, but
BoomWolf wrote: From what I see, he insists on playing with lists that do not take any of the vast numbers of tools that punish tau gunline tactics, plays on the terrain setup that is most absurdly biased in favor of shooting armies.
And he then say its OP.
Maybe, just MAYBE you should try actually taking the tool intened to fight the very lists you claim kick your ass, and play on a field not completely in their favor. do you see any real-world general that says "well, I need to take down a tank convoy, so I'll go at them in the open field with light machine guns."?
NO! you bring the godamn tools for the job and pick your fighitng zones. yes, in a game both players "pick their zone", so the table should be somewhat balanced for a good game, but your games are tilted so far its not even funny!
Heck, I play tau and I would refuse to play such an empty board. my buddie's board we place like 3-4 big building around around (admittedly some cardboard), several small one on top of multiple forests, craters, fencese, sandbags, etc. and we get bummered that we don't have more, and work on increasing the numbers despite the fact we are pretty much all shooting armies, and thrive in coverless tables.
In our local shop we even place neutral bunkers, gun emplacements and such from time to time.
Ever time I see a batrep with zero terrain, or a tau-hate topic when it reveals that there is no terrain, I just want to facepalm. these guys are literally not playing 40k.
"Shooting gallery" games end on the statagic level once you have done listbuilding.
Do e really need to bring back the "how to terrain" rules from 6th? they made a table have in total 6d3 "pieces", where a piece is a forest/BUILDING/a cluster of small stuff, its ALOT.
The 7th unfortunatly settles in saying "the more the better", and I don't recall ever seeing a picture of a battlezone from GW that did not include heavy terrain, but
How do I pick the tools if I don't know what the opposing list is going to be? I don't think a list tailored to beat Tau is going to fare well against most other lists. Maybe I'm wrong.
Martel732 wrote: Another issue: I don't know the enemy codex before the game, so I can't list tailor in anyway. I have to prepare for Orks, Nids, CSM, Tau, Eldar, etc.
My current list has very few templates, because against MOST lists, I can live without the templates. I usually only use one drop pod, because I don't like that style of play, and there are just as many lists I don't want to deploy via pod as there are cases where it would be advantageous.
Templates handle Orks, Nids, Tau, and Eldar infantry really well. Heck, even scouts get burned out by the heavy flamer, and anything space marine cringes at the heavy2 s6 rending frag cannon from the furioso. I've had good success when using 3 frag cannon dreads and 2 squads of ASM with melta in pods. This setup is dirt cheap (725 pts) and 5 pods guarentees you get 3 on turn 1, and that can be devastating against many armies.
He's a sample TAC list I've won with twice against marines and DE and lost against Eldar:
Tactical Squad
Plasma gun
Combi-plasma
Razor back
Las/plas Dozer blade
Tactical Squad
Plasma gun
Combi-plasma
Razor back
Las/plas Dozer blade
Death company
5 more guys
Jump packs
Power fist X 2
Bike Squad
2 more
2 X grav guns
combi-grav
Predator
Las turret
Lascannons
Over charged
Dozer blade
Just so everyone stops using Martel as a proxy for "reasons people lose to Tau" I'll throw my hat in here and say that I agree with him, his assessment of Riptides (IA ones at least) vs Wraithknights, the strength of the Tau, and claim that the Riptide was an unnecessary addition to the Tau army list in this addition. Tau needed buffs on a few units, which they received, but did not need the abomination of the Riptide.
Ignatius wrote: Just so everyone stops using Martel as a proxy for "reasons people lose to Tau" I'll throw my hat in here and say that I agree with him, his assessment of Riptides (IA ones at least) vs Wraithknights, the strength of the Tau, and claim that the Riptide was an unnecessary addition to the Tau army list in this addition. Tau needed buffs on a few units, which they received, but did not need the abomination of the Riptide.
So Space Marines, Eldar, Grey Knights, ect can get a powerful large Walker/MC that can do a lot of damage but not the Tau? And again, he is the only person I have ever heard saying x2 Riptides are worse then x3 Wraithknights, it is just plain not true and again the Riptide is not overpowered or nearly the monster many of you make it out to be. I can agree, boost the points cost on the Ion Accelerator and that alone would be a good enough change. If the Riptide is so "overpowered" then that means the Dreadknight, Imperial Knight and Wraithknight should be lumped into that argument as well for many of the reasons being stated here.
Quickjager wrote: What is this Space Marine MC? Am I going insane that I overlooked it.
Notice I said "Walker/MC" in regards to the Imperial Knight/Dreadkinght, but with the Imperial ally and multiple CAD shenanigans it wouldn't be to hard for them to get a few Dreadknights in Space Marine army.
Ignatius wrote: Just so everyone stops using Martel as a proxy for "reasons people lose to Tau" I'll throw my hat in here and say that I agree with him, his assessment of Riptides (IA ones at least) vs Wraithknights, the strength of the Tau, and claim that the Riptide was an unnecessary addition to the Tau army list in this addition. Tau needed buffs on a few units, which they received, but did not need the abomination of the Riptide.
So Space Marines, Eldar, Grey Knights, ect can get a powerful large Walker/MC that can do a lot of damage but not the Tau? And again, he is the only person I have ever heard saying x2 Riptides are worse then x3 Wraithknights, it is just plain not true and again the Riptide is not overpowered or nearly the monster many of you make it out to be. I can agree, boost the points cost on the Ion Accelerator and that alone would be a good enough change. If the Riptide is so "overpowered" then that means the Dreadknight, Imperial Knight and Wraithknight should be lumped into that argument as well for many of the reasons being stated here.
You can get whatever you want, just pay the appropriate points. I think the base Riptide needs to be a bit more expensive just because of its insane durability. Don't like that? Make it less durable. The IA needs to be way more expensive or replaced with a new weapon. The other units you mentioned should all probably be more expensive as well, just because of how difficult it is to get them off the table.
"nearly the monster many of you make it out to be"
I've seen them table too many lists, and not just mine.
Ignatius wrote: Just so everyone stops using Martel as a proxy for "reasons people lose to Tau" I'll throw my hat in here and say that I agree with him, his assessment of Riptides (IA ones at least) vs Wraithknights, the strength of the Tau, and claim that the Riptide was an unnecessary addition to the Tau army list in this addition. Tau needed buffs on a few units, which they received, but did not need the abomination of the Riptide.
So Space Marines, Eldar, Grey Knights, ect can get a powerful large Walker/MC that can do a lot of damage but not the Tau? And again, he is the only person I have ever heard saying x2 Riptides are worse then x3 Wraithknights, it is just plain not true and again the Riptide is not overpowered or nearly the monster many of you make it out to be. I can agree, boost the points cost on the Ion Accelerator and that alone would be a good enough change. If the Riptide is so "overpowered" then that means the Dreadknight, Imperial Knight and Wraithknight should be lumped into that argument as well for many of the reasons being stated here.
You can get whatever you want, just pay the appropriate points. I think the base Riptide needs to be a bit more expensive just because of its insane durability. Don't like that? Make it less durable. The IA needs to be way more expensive or replaced with a new weapon. The other units you mentioned should all probably be more expensive as well, just because of how difficult it is to get them off the table.
"nearly the monster many of you make it out to be"
I've seen them table too many lists, and not just mine.
As mentioned before, Knight and Dreadknight will most likely not change in the next 2 years minimum.
If so, why should Tau Riptide be nerfed to the point it's strictly worse than units that every Imperial army has access to?
Ignatius wrote: Just so everyone stops using Martel as a proxy for "reasons people lose to Tau" I'll throw my hat in here and say that I agree with him, his assessment of Riptides (IA ones at least) vs Wraithknights, the strength of the Tau, and claim that the Riptide was an unnecessary addition to the Tau army list in this addition. Tau needed buffs on a few units, which they received, but did not need the abomination of the Riptide.
So Space Marines, Eldar, Grey Knights, ect can get a powerful large Walker/MC that can do a lot of damage but not the Tau? And again, he is the only person I have ever heard saying x2 Riptides are worse then x3 Wraithknights, it is just plain not true and again the Riptide is not overpowered or nearly the monster many of you make it out to be. I can agree, boost the points cost on the Ion Accelerator and that alone would be a good enough change. If the Riptide is so "overpowered" then that means the Dreadknight, Imperial Knight and Wraithknight should be lumped into that argument as well for many of the reasons being stated here.
You can get whatever you want, just pay the appropriate points. I think the base Riptide needs to be a bit more expensive just because of its insane durability. Don't like that? Make it less durable. The IA needs to be way more expensive or replaced with a new weapon. The other units you mentioned should all probably be more expensive as well, just because of how difficult it is to get them off the table.
"nearly the monster many of you make it out to be"
I've seen them table too many lists, and not just mine.
As mentioned before, Knight and Dreadknight will most likely not change in the next 2 years minimum.
If so, why should Tau Riptide be nerfed to the point it's strictly worse than units that every Imperial army has access to?
Because it isn't about better or worse - It's about balance. The Riptide is nice, but still too nice for the price, and simply does its job too well (The same thing would happen if Dreadknights always one-hitted Daemon Princes - tha'ts their job, but then there would be no contest in taking them). The point isn't to give the Imperial factions love, it's to give the Tau the unit they need, and not the one they want.
As a former Tau player, I know that the Riptide is too easy to use. It's durable, long ranged and damaging, but that's not a problem, IKs are too. The point is that they need to cost what they are worth, so all these capabilities measure up to its true cost.
Most people are a bit biased because of the state of the Riptide, but I'm sure most people realize that it can be put into place with the game. we don't want to nerf the Riptid because we hate it, we want them nerfed (and Eldar and Tau in general to some extend) because we like them and want them to function in tangent with the rest of game. I wanna use a Riptide and get what its worth in points, I want to use it fairly, just as a Tyranid player uses a Mawloc or a Space Marine player uses a Dreadnought. But cannot, because the rules and point costs betray it.
Nerfing isn't a bad thing. It's not an attack. It's a good thing. It helps balance, and puts a given unit into the place it is meant to have - It's for the unit's, faction's, game's and player's good, all in all.
Ignatius wrote: Just so everyone stops using Martel as a proxy for "reasons people lose to Tau" I'll throw my hat in here and say that I agree with him, his assessment of Riptides (IA ones at least) vs Wraithknights, the strength of the Tau, and claim that the Riptide was an unnecessary addition to the Tau army list in this addition. Tau needed buffs on a few units, which they received, but did not need the abomination of the Riptide.
So Space Marines, Eldar, Grey Knights, ect can get a powerful large Walker/MC that can do a lot of damage but not the Tau? And again, he is the only person I have ever heard saying x2 Riptides are worse then x3 Wraithknights, it is just plain not true and again the Riptide is not overpowered or nearly the monster many of you make it out to be. I can agree, boost the points cost on the Ion Accelerator and that alone would be a good enough change. If the Riptide is so "overpowered" then that means the Dreadknight, Imperial Knight and Wraithknight should be lumped into that argument as well for many of the reasons being stated here.
You can get whatever you want, just pay the appropriate points. I think the base Riptide needs to be a bit more expensive just because of its insane durability. Don't like that? Make it less durable. The IA needs to be way more expensive or replaced with a new weapon. The other units you mentioned should all probably be more expensive as well, just because of how difficult it is to get them off the table.
"nearly the monster many of you make it out to be"
I've seen them table too many lists, and not just mine.
As mentioned before, Knight and Dreadknight will most likely not change in the next 2 years minimum.
If so, why should Tau Riptide be nerfed to the point it's strictly worse than units that every Imperial army has access to?
Because it isn't about better or worse - It's about balance. The Riptide is nice, but still too nice for the price, and simply does its job too well (The same thing would happen if Dreadknights always one-hitted Daemon Princes - tha'ts their job, but then there would be no contest in taking them). The point isn't to give the Imperial factions love, it's to give the Tau the unit they need, and not the one they want.
As a former Tau player, I know that the Riptide is too easy to use. It's durable, long ranged and damaging, but that's not a problem, IKs are too. The point is that they need to cost what they are worth, so all these capabilities measure up to its true cost.
Most people are a bit biased because of the state of the Riptide, but I'm sure most people realize that it can be put into place with the game. we don't want to nerf the Riptid because we hate it, we want them nerfed (and Eldar and Tau in general to some extend) because we like them and want them to function in tangent with the rest of game. I wanna use a Riptide and get what its worth in points, I want to use it fairly, just as a Tyranid player uses a Mawloc or a Space Marine player uses a Dreadnought. But cannot, because the rules and point costs betray it.
Nerfing isn't a bad thing. It's not an attack. It's a good thing. It helps balance, and puts a given unit into the place it is meant to have - It's for the unit's, faction's, game's and player's good, all in all.
Thing is most Riptide issues are in fact IA issues. A nerf to IA is warranted and most Tau players in this thread have recognized as much (and even proposed solutions).
Ignatius wrote: Just so everyone stops using Martel as a proxy for "reasons people lose to Tau" I'll throw my hat in here and say that I agree with him, his assessment of Riptides (IA ones at least) vs Wraithknights, the strength of the Tau, and claim that the Riptide was an unnecessary addition to the Tau army list in this addition. Tau needed buffs on a few units, which they received, but did not need the abomination of the Riptide.
So Space Marines, Eldar, Grey Knights, ect can get a powerful large Walker/MC that can do a lot of damage but not the Tau? And again, he is the only person I have ever heard saying x2 Riptides are worse then x3 Wraithknights, it is just plain not true and again the Riptide is not overpowered or nearly the monster many of you make it out to be. I can agree, boost the points cost on the Ion Accelerator and that alone would be a good enough change. If the Riptide is so "overpowered" then that means the Dreadknight, Imperial Knight and Wraithknight should be lumped into that argument as well for many of the reasons being stated here.
You can get whatever you want, just pay the appropriate points. I think the base Riptide needs to be a bit more expensive just because of its insane durability. Don't like that? Make it less durable. The IA needs to be way more expensive or replaced with a new weapon. The other units you mentioned should all probably be more expensive as well, just because of how difficult it is to get them off the table.
"nearly the monster many of you make it out to be"
I've seen them table too many lists, and not just mine.
As mentioned before, Knight and Dreadknight will most likely not change in the next 2 years minimum.
If so, why should Tau Riptide be nerfed to the point it's strictly worse than units that every Imperial army has access to?
Because it isn't about better or worse - It's about balance. The Riptide is nice, but still too nice for the price, and simply does its job too well (The same thing would happen if Dreadknights always one-hitted Daemon Princes - tha'ts their job, but then there would be no contest in taking them). The point isn't to give the Imperial factions love, it's to give the Tau the unit they need, and not the one they want.
As a former Tau player, I know that the Riptide is too easy to use. It's durable, long ranged and damaging, but that's not a problem, IKs are too. The point is that they need to cost what they are worth, so all these capabilities measure up to its true cost.
Most people are a bit biased because of the state of the Riptide, but I'm sure most people realize that it can be put into place with the game. we don't want to nerf the Riptid because we hate it, we want them nerfed (and Eldar and Tau in general to some extend) because we like them and want them to function in tangent with the rest of game. I wanna use a Riptide and get what its worth in points, I want to use it fairly, just as a Tyranid player uses a Mawloc or a Space Marine player uses a Dreadnought. But cannot, because the rules and point costs betray it.
Nerfing isn't a bad thing. It's not an attack. It's a good thing. It helps balance, and puts a given unit into the place it is meant to have - It's for the unit's, faction's, game's and player's good, all in all.
Thing is most Riptide issues are in fact IA issues. A nerf to IA is warranted and most Tau players in this thread have recognized as much (and even proposed solutions).
Very few people consuder HBC Riptide overpowered.
Sure. Have no problem with that. Make it 20 pt, or even 25 pt, or maybe make it into the Ion Cannon instead.
I still feel that, to the armies who don't pack all anti tank, it's a bit too hard to kill. A wound off it would be fine by me. I don't care if its toughness gets nerfed or not, but I'd like it if it happened.
My point just was that nerfs is the best thing most codexes can get at this point. I like nerfs because of that.
It is no harder to kill then the Dreadknight in terms of toughness and armor save, according to that logic it means the Dreadknight should be made less durable as well. And before you say it the 3++ is not an automatic thing but it does help, however hurting itself 1/3 of the time with no saves is a major drawback (and one I feel is completely overlooked) on top of it potentially getting hot. The same comparison could be made in regards to the Dreadknights Psychic abilities giving its Gatling Psylincer INSTANT DEATH on top of others. Regardless of how minute the chance might be it is a dice game and there is still a chance.
gmaleron wrote: It is no harder to kill then the Dreadknight in terms of toughness and armor save, according to that logic it means the Dreadknight should be made less durable as well. And before you say it the 3++ is not an automatic thing but it does help, however hurting itself 1/3 of the time with no saves is a major drawback (and one I feel is completely overlooked) on top of it potentially getting hot. The same comparison could be made in regards to the Dreadknights Psychic abilities giving its Gatling Psylincer INSTANT DEATH on top of others. Regardless of how minute the chance might be it is a dice game and there is still a chance.
I didn't mean that it should be compared to the Dreadknight. To me, that comparison is moot - It only came to be so usual because both the Dreadknight and the Riptide are 6th Ed MCs. I have no need to have them be equal in anything, because they two very different things - Meleeing big things with shooting support and Break enemy strongpoints with powerful weaponry.
What I did mean was that the Riptide should be nerfed according to what role it has. Right now it has armour, toughness and Invulnerability to match a melee creature, which would be nice if it was a such. Problem is, it couldn't be less of a melee creature, beyond what it natively can do as an MC. It's a shooting platform with really strong guns, but the statline of a creature that should soak up damage coming into melee range, like the Dreadknight in many respects. That's the reason I'd like it to get a toughness nerf - When you've got so great guns on such a powerful platform, one of two things will happen: It is either priced like a goddamn LoW, because it serves a similar role of tough, large and menacing... Problem s, you can take three, without even using Detatchments. To me, that isn't acceptable. On the other hand, you can make it do less damage by nerfing the IA, which I support - Problem is still that the unit can do the same as always, while still being able to sit and do nothing in a corner. Again, not a great thing to me.
And THAT'S why I like the idea of lowering it's T to 5 and/or reducing it to 4 W. It's a powerful platform that can be Instadeathed, and therefor should be used with a lot of care. S 10 weaponry tend to be either melee (Which should always be the Tau kryptonite, as people have agreed), single shot (Railgun, Taychon Arrow) or very short ranged (Leman Russ Demolisher, Vindicator). This means that the toughness of the Riptide is still prelevant against smaller forces (as other people have shown us that T 5 vs 6 isn't much different), but is a downside against really huge weaponry, which the Riptide are then in need of avoiding. It would also make the 3++ test a lot more risky and tactical in general - do you really want to risk doing nothing a turn and damaging yourself for a chance of a 3++ for a turn, that might defend you against a S 10 hit? Maybe instead choose the jump option to get away? Or maybe the Ordinance Pie-plate, for a higher chance of dealing with the unit in question?
To me, Tau has always been a agile and extremely dangerous force that does not allow failure - That's why we have things like Supportive Fire and Markerlights, simply because our downsides are pretty goddamn dangerous to us, and we got to do something about that to succeed. A Tau army can't just be squandered - You need to think. That's what I want from the Riptide. It needs to be dangerous and tough, as long as the army supports it and keeps it safe, but very easy to remove whenever it isn't - It's the Tau way. Fight smart, fight fast and keep the feth away from that thunderhammer!
Why is it that people want to nerf what makes Tau unique, yet on a thread about drop pods being too cheap tey say that they need them to be unique... Double standard much?
They also say that drop pods are fine since those lists don't win tournaments... Neither do Tau lists, so by the same logic Tau are underpowered!
gmaleron wrote: It is no harder to kill then the Dreadknight in terms of toughness and armor save, according to that logic it means the Dreadknight should be made less durable as well. And before you say it the 3++ is not an automatic thing but it does help, however hurting itself 1/3 of the time with no saves is a major drawback (and one I feel is completely overlooked) on top of it potentially getting hot. The same comparison could be made in regards to the Dreadknights Psychic abilities giving its Gatling Psylincer INSTANT DEATH on top of others. Regardless of how minute the chance might be it is a dice game and there is still a chance.
I've proven countless times using mathematics that the riptide is more than twice as durable than the dread knight in almost every situation. Keep going on and on and on ignoring the math.
gmaleron wrote: It is no harder to kill then the Dreadknight in terms of toughness and armor save, according to that logic it means the Dreadknight should be made less durable as well.
Yes it should.
Seriously, units which combine
-high toughness
-multiple wounds
-2+ armour save
-5+ inv save
-tank-like weapons and mobility
-close combat abilities of an MC
...simply should not exist. Both Riptide and DK should be either changed to T7 3+ 4 wounds, or (preferably) made into walkers.
Compare Riptide's durability to Hammerhead. It's just absurd - and completely belies logic, because Hammerhead is a TANK.
gmaleron wrote: It is no harder to kill then the Dreadknight in terms of toughness and armor save, according to that logic it means the Dreadknight should be made less durable as well.
Yes it should.
Seriously, units which combine
-high toughness
-multiple wounds
-2+ armour save
-5+ inv save
-tank-like weapons and mobility
-close combat abilities of an MC
...simply should not exist. Both Riptide and DK should be either changed to T7 3+ 4 wounds, or (preferably) made into walkers.
Agreed.
I think the incredible mobility (JSJ on the Riptide, Jump Movement on the Wraithknight and Dreadknight) is even worse.
There seems to be this idea that big models should be able to do everything better - better mobility, better defence, better ranged weaponry, better melee weaponry etc.. Sorry, but there has to be a trade-off - especially when it comes to durability vs. mobility. If you have a really durable unit, fine, but don't them make it as mobile (or more so) than similar, but less durable units.
gmaleron wrote: It is no harder to kill then the Dreadknight in terms of toughness and armor save, according to that logic it means the Dreadknight should be made less durable as well. And before you say it the 3++ is not an automatic thing but it does help, however hurting itself 1/3 of the time with no saves is a major drawback (and one I feel is completely overlooked) on top of it potentially getting hot. The same comparison could be made in regards to the Dreadknights Psychic abilities giving its Gatling Psylincer INSTANT DEATH on top of others. Regardless of how minute the chance might be it is a dice game and there is still a chance.
I've proven countless times using mathematics that the riptide is more than twice as durable than the dread knight in almost every situation. Keep going on and on and on ignoring the math.
Yes, using Schrodinger's mathematics. that means your math was as valuable as throwing darts on a board by a blindfolded monky.
Using actual REAL math, were proven far, FAR more times that the riptide is in fact far LESS durable than the dreadknight when costs are compared, even with the FnP upgrade-as long has the HBC and wants to actually be any use in shooting (and if he ins't any use in shooting-he isn't any use at all. given that its all he does, and if he dos not shoot well there isn't even a reason to shoot AT it, making its durability irrelevant)
This brings us back to the fact the problem is not the riptide, but the IA. a riptide without IA is far, FAR less durable than its statline would suggest.
Though by this point I have stopped expecting you to actually follow logic, math or fairness, given how you successfully brushed aside everything we said the entire thread as if we did not give a shopping list of reasons you are wrong and that you never even bothered to answer any of it.
As for the post above, I have never seen a Riptide without an IA. So, to me, they might as well not exist.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SGTPozy wrote: Why is it that people want to nerf what makes Tau unique, yet on a thread about drop pods being too cheap tey say that they need them to be unique... Double standard much?
They also say that drop pods are fine since those lists don't win tournaments... Neither do Tau lists, so by the same logic Tau are underpowered!
Double standards, double standards everywhere!
You can ban drop pods for all I care. I just won't use dreadnoughts anymore. That's all.
Martel732 wrote: They are all more durable than what the BA get.
As for the post above, I have never seen a Riptide without an IA. So, to me, they might as well not exist.
You apparently haven't seen a table with.LOS blocking terrain either so these might not exist either despite people's testimony of the contrary, right?
HBC Riptides make good AA and light vehicle killers. At least in my meta the standard triptide is 2x IA and HBC
Martel732 wrote: I've seen plenty of tables with LOS blocking terrain. But mostly that was before 6th at a different location. I've moved since then. :(
I'm just pointing out that IA Riptides vastly outnumber HBC Ritpides in real games, I'm sure.
Agreed, nut the HBC Riptide do fulfill a role in a Tau army. Therefore I think changing the Riptide (as opposed to the IA itself) based exclusively on IA Riptide performance is wrong.
Martel732 wrote: I've seen plenty of tables with LOS blocking terrain. But mostly that was before 6th at a different location. I've moved since then. :(
I'm just pointing out that IA Riptides vastly outnumber HBC Ritpides in real games, I'm sure.
Agreed, nut the HBC Riptide do fulfill a role in a Tau army. Therefore I think changing the Riptide (as opposed to the IA itself) based exclusively on IA Riptide performance is wrong.
I wouldn't change it much. I still think the base hull is too durable for its cost, but it's not super-killy without the IA.
gmaleron wrote: It is no harder to kill then the Dreadknight in terms of toughness and armor save, according to that logic it means the Dreadknight should be made less durable as well. And before you say it the 3++ is not an automatic thing but it does help, however hurting itself 1/3 of the time with no saves is a major drawback (and one I feel is completely overlooked) on top of it potentially getting hot. The same comparison could be made in regards to the Dreadknights Psychic abilities giving its Gatling Psylincer INSTANT DEATH on top of others. Regardless of how minute the chance might be it is a dice game and there is still a chance.
I've proven countless times using mathematics that the riptide is more than twice as durable than the dread knight in almost every situation. Keep going on and on and on ignoring the math.
Yes, using Schrodinger's mathematics. that means your math was as valuable as throwing darts on a board by a blindfolded monky.
Using actual REAL math, were proven far, FAR more times that the riptide is in fact far LESS durable than the dreadknight when costs are compared, even with the FnP upgrade-as long has the HBC and wants to actually be any use in shooting (and if he ins't any use in shooting-he isn't any use at all. given that its all he does, and if he dos not shoot well there isn't even a reason to shoot AT it, making its durability irrelevant)
This brings us back to the fact the problem is not the riptide, but the IA. a riptide without IA is far, FAR less durable than its statline would suggest.
Though by this point I have stopped expecting you to actually follow logic, math or fairness, given how you successfully brushed aside everything we said the entire thread as if we did not give a shopping list of reasons you are wrong and that you never even bothered to answer any of it.
No...it's called statistics, it's real math, it's indisputable (which means you can't dispute it). Laws of probability always reach equilibrium with enough samples which is why we are even able to play a game using dice rolls and expect some degree of balance. Not trying to be rude but your argument has no basis in reality - you can't argue that statistics isn't real math. Even without the 3++ the riptide is significantly more durable. It gets and additional 5+ FNP and has an additional wound hard to comprehend a situation where having equal toughness equal armor save and an additional 5+ which is undeniable and an additional wound would make you less tough - it seems you are the one trying to use some quantum formula to figure out which unit is tougher...because here in reality dread-knights aren't nearly as tough as riptides plus they operate at shorter ranges exposing them to 100% of an armies firepower as opposed to something like the typical 20% or less an army has at 48 to 60 inches....
Pure curiosity: how many of the 'riptide is too survivable 'guys are taking the self-inflicted wounds of failed nova charges and Gets Hot into account?
The other side of 'Dreadknight needs to get close so it eats more firepower' argument: Dreadknight often gets into melee, where it ears exactly 0 anti-tank firepower.
What are the exact chances of failing nova charge? And how often do wounds result from it? I've always assumed my opponents know what they were doing on that.
Gets Hot on a single shot weapon will not generate many wounds on a 2+ save model.
Martel732 wrote: What are the exact chances of failing nova charge? And how often do wounds result from it? I've always assumed my opponents know what they were doing on that.
Gets Hot on a single shot weapon will not generate many wounds on a 2+ save model.
1/3 to fail, so 1.33 wounds over a 6 round game after FnP Alsio HBC is a 8/ 12 shot gun with Gets Hot
LordBlades wrote: Pure curiosity: how many of the 'riptide is too survivable 'guys are taking the self-inflicted wounds of failed nova charges and Gets Hot into account?
The other side of 'Dread-knight needs to get close so it eats more firepower' argument: Dread-knight often gets into melee, where it ears exactly 0 anti-tank firepower.
Gets hot wounds on a 2+ 5+fnp?
(.167) (.167)(.667) = .0186 = 1.86% chance to take a wound from gets hot. Less than a 2% chance to happen every shot. About a 10% chance to take a wound in a game from gets hot. Nova can be risky...not sure I'd ever shoot it like that unless I had full wounds and really needed to risk 1 wound to annihilate an entire squad - when the decision comes - I'm sure it's an easy decision to make. For the 3+ Inv...very rarely do people use it. Sitting in 4+ cover from ruins is usually enough with a 5+ fnp save and 5 wounds.....
heck it would only take
(.667)(.834)(.500)(.666) = .185 = 18.5% chance of laz cannon wound. So roughly 5.5 laz cannons to cause a wound x 5 wounds = 27.5 laz cannons to kill...considering just about no army can realistically kill it in even 2- 3 turns at range...why would you EVER use the shield?
Compared to a Dread-knight
(.667)(.834)(.500) = .278 = 27.8% chance to cause a wound. So roughly 4 laz cannons to cause a wound x 4 wounds = 16 laz cannons to kill. Pretty tough but as you can see 16/27.5 = 58.1% - so only 58.1% of the toughness of a riptide even without the 3++.
Who the bloody hell is saying the Dreadknight is more durable than a Riptide? I will beat you with a metal dreadnought if you try under any circumstances to defend that claim.
I know you've all taken to ignore my meterlong posts, but here goes: Why are we even using the Dreadknight as a point of comparison, anyway? It's not an "MC vs MC" thread, but a "How to nerf Tau" thread afterall - It doesn't matter if it points up to the Dreadknight or not.
The Wise Dane wrote: I know you've all taken to ignore my meterlong posts, but here goes: Why are we even using the Dreadknight as a point of comparison, anyway? It's not an "MC vs MC" thread, but a "How to nerf Tau" thread afterall - It doesn't matter if it points up to the Dreadknight or not.
I've been reading your posts. very logical and fair posts - I agree with you. Except I disagree that we can't compare 1 MC to another. I chose the dreadknight because they have the same toughness and same armor save and cost about the same with their typical builds. In the post above I give the basic statistical annalisis of these MC suruvivability to low AP high STR weapons (the weapons that are most effective at taking these things down) and the dread-knight proves to be about 40% less effective at tanking these weapons.To me this is absurd. That the tougher of these two units is the 60" range sandoff unit.
The Wise Dane wrote: I know you've all taken to ignore my meterlong posts, but here goes: Why are we even using the Dreadknight as a point of comparison, anyway? It's not an "MC vs MC" thread, but a "How to nerf Tau" thread afterall - It doesn't matter if it points up to the Dreadknight or not.
Tau (or anything else for that matter) are 'strong' or 'weak' only by comparison to the other armies. The whole 'nerf Tau' thread has a comparison at base.
How would you propose we judge if a unit is too strong or too weak if not by comparison with other units?
The Wise Dane wrote: I know you've all taken to ignore my meterlong posts, but here goes: Why are we even using the Dreadknight as a point of comparison, anyway? It's not an "MC vs MC" thread, but a "How to nerf Tau" thread afterall - It doesn't matter if it points up to the Dreadknight or not.
I've been reading your posts. very logical and fair posts - I agree with you. Except I disagree that we can't compare 1 MC to another. I chose the dreadknight because they have the same toughness and same armor save and cost about the same with their typical builds. In the post above I give the basic statistical annalisis of these MC suruvivability to low AP high STR weapons (the weapons that are most effective at taking these things down) and the dread-knight proves to be about 40% less effective at tanking these weapons.To me this is absurd. That the tougher of these two units is the 60" range sandoff unit.
Well I totally agree. I hate mathhammering, and math in general, and as you said, I try to be logical about it at any rate. I see the niche that the Dreadknight occupies, and that's fine, but the problem the Riptide has is that it doesn't fit a specific niche - Because it is so durable and all around useful through a lack of weaknesses, it ends up being the workhorse of a typical Tau army, which it really shouldn't be - All details about it points it out as a breaktrhough unit that can deal with Infantry, light and heavy. Right now, it can deal with everything, and then some.
As I stated, Tau has always been a force that wants to avoid getting damaged by using advanced tactics and weaponry - The Fire Warrior, Crisis Suit, Broadsides and the like alll present this, while well armed, by being either very few or easily damaged by enemy fire. The Riptide, however, does not. In fact, it plays a bit like an Ork machine, what with the randomized Nova Reactor, with a good load of Necron resilience on top. What it was supposed to be, was a massive Crisis Suit to soak up damage and break up formations, but in the pursuit of that, it just ended up being way too much of everything.
Now, onto the meat of it: I think the Riptide could deal with one point less of T and/or W, with appropriate point reduction for that. This will make it a bit more fragile to overwhelming fire, as is the rest of the army, and on top of that it's very fluffy, as Tau are great at making superior armour and wargear, but lack the resilience to back it up (See Crisis Suits and Broadsides). I would also make the Ion Accelerator 20-25 pt, OR make it S 7 AP 3 Heavy 3, with an option to Nova it to get S 8 AP 3 Large Blast Ordnance. I know it's quite a lot, but I think it's all around better for the unit.
And while I'm going, Rail weaponry need a boost - Not a lot, just something to cement its main role: Tank hunting. I'd give all Rail weaponry Armourbane (Or whatever the Vanquisher gets on the main gun). this will help it one-hit things, without boosting its strength against MCs. Stealth Suits desperatly need Move through Cover, and could deal with some sort of upgrade to represent their invincibility (Go to ground = Reduce enemy BS to 1?). I have no clue as to how to help Vespid. General rules need some adjustments too: Overwatch would be better with just one extra unit instead of all within 6'', and Markerlights should be "1 to get -1 Cover Save on a given unit", like so many others stated.
to say my thoughts to rips and reducing T or W of them, i use only one in my armys and would use a second one at 2000pt and more. I like how it moves the same way like krisis and that is the main reason why i want to play it. The ion is to strong, thats clear and it needs to cost more points.
But if you reduce the wounds or toughness, then i am sure that i wont play the rip like before because i have to be so much more carefull that it will constantly scratch my tableedge and be as far away from the opponent as possible. Until now i played the rip offensive and like i said only one so if you have tauplayer that are not only bringing three of them into play than it should be allright and a more attractive play but if you reduce the T or W than it will be boring like hell because than it will be clear how the tau will react to this - hate generates only opposing hate.
At the end i want to ask you:
Why do you have such threads and discuss how you would nerf this and that? You cant change things, only gw can this do and the new taucodex will maybe there in summer? I dont know what you want with these threads cause they only make you hate the specific unit/combo/army or do you want to see that all are the same oppinion like you?
I dont meen it offensive but i really want to know what you really want to archive with these.
xsharkmanx wrote: to say my thoughts to rips and reducing T or W of them, i use only one in my armys and would use a second one at 2000pt and more. I like how it moves the same way like krisis and that is the main reason why i want to play it. The ion is to strong, thats clear and it needs to cost more points.
But if you reduce the wounds or toughness, then i am sure that i wont play the rip like before because i have to be so much more carefull that it will constantly scratch my tableedge and be as far away from the opponent as possible. Until now i played the rip offensive and like i said only one so if you have tauplayer that are not only bringing three of them into play than it should be allright and a more attractive play but if you reduce the T or W than it will be boring like hell because than it will be clear how the tau will react to this - hate generates only opposing hate.
At the end i want to ask you:
Why do you have such threads and discuss how you would nerf this and that? You cant change things, only gw can this do and the new taucodex will maybe there in summer? I dont know what you want with these threads cause they only make you hate the specific unit/combo/army or do you want to see that all are the same oppinion like you?
I dont meen it offensive but i really want to know what you really want to archive with these.
Why we do this? An absolutely fantastic cocktail of a need to create chaos and conflict, to escape boredom, and most importantly, for the lulz
Of what you wrote, I got tgat you were afraid that the unit would play differebtly if reduced in overall toughness, which is exactly what I'm aiming at - I want people to use it differently, as it's supposed to - right now, nothing can really scratch it, and cover won't be needed for the most part... But with a reduction in T and a Vindicator bearing down on you, you will embrace the tried and true JSJ to a whole new degree!
Now, as you explain, that would make you put the Riptide as far away from anything as possible, and that's of course not the point... What I'd do is to reduce tge range of the IA to 36'', and MAYBE the HBC to 24". Why? Firstly, it will force the player to risk the Riptide when using it's weapons, but as long as there's no S 10 close, it should actually be fine against most shooting, as plenty of mathhammerers in this thread have proved. Secondly, it will mske it fit the role of a "breakthrough unit", as right now, it's more of an artillery piece than anything... And that's what we have the Hammerhead and Skyray for. Bear in mind, I do believe that it should be a bit cheaper for it, to compensate.
With these changes, I hope it will be used as the giant, wellarmoured Crisis Suit it is, and not as a moving, shooting, tanking artillery piece. It will change up how you play, but that's the best part - If there's something I love about the new codexes, it's the fact that you can't just play as you've always done anymore. You got to adapt... Just like tge Tau has always done!
Martel732 wrote: What are the exact chances of failing nova charge? And how often do wounds result from it? I've always assumed my opponents know what they were doing on that.
Gets Hot on a single shot weapon will not generate many wounds on a 2+ save model.
1/3 to fail, so 1.33 wounds over a 6 round game after FnP Alsio HBC is a 8/ 12 shot gun with Gets Hot
That's not nearly enough wounds to care about, imo. It does me no good if the thing eventually kills itself after it has already killed my whole list. I need to get it off the table quickly, no pray for my opponent's bad dice.
The Wise Dane wrote: Why we do this? An absolutely fantastic cocktail of a need to create chaos and conflict, to escape boredom, and most importantly, for the lulz
Of what you wrote, I got tgat you were afraid that the unit would play differebtly if reduced in overall toughness, which is exactly what I'm aiming at - I want people to use it differently, as it's supposed to - right now, nothing can really scratch it, and cover won't be needed for the most part... But with a reduction in T and a Vindicator bearing down on you, you will embrace the tried and true JSJ to a whole new degree!
Now, as you explain, that would make you put the Riptide as far away from anything as possible, and that's of course not the point... What I'd do is to reduce tge range of the IA to 36'', and MAYBE the HBC to 24". Why? Firstly, it will force the player to risk the Riptide when using it's weapons, but as long as there's no S 10 close, it should actually be fine against most shooting, as plenty of mathhammerers in this thread have proved. Secondly, it will mske it fit the role of a "breakthrough unit", as right now, it's more of an artillery piece than anything... And that's what we have the Hammerhead and Skyray for. Bear in mind, I do believe that it should be a bit cheaper for it, to compensate.
With these changes, I hope it will be used as the giant, wellarmoured Crisis Suit it is, and not as a moving, shooting, tanking artillery piece. It will change up how you play, but that's the best part - If there's something I love about the new codexes, it's the fact that you can't just play as you've always done anymore. You got to adapt... Just like tge Tau has always done!
I am not afraid that the rip will be played different, im afraid that the game will be boring as hell against/with tau because nobody would risk to get a 200pt model instakilled with a toughness x2hit. At first you suggested to decrease T and/or W and to get around the new problem which would be created of your change you want to nerf the rip again? hm i dont know what to say but that isnt the right thing/way.
I agree that the rip takes to much firepower to die but reducing T/W isnt the right way, maybe i would delete the option for the 3+.
The Ion is to cheap for what it can do so higher costs and range to max 48" would be ok imo.
Martel732 wrote: If you want to keep the invinco-Riptide, fine. Just pay for the invincibility.
oh damn i didnt wanted to write here again, that was what i said to myself yesterday and here i am again writing my third post...
I said that the rip is to durable and has with the ion to much output so pls dont say that i want to keep the invinco-rip, pls read what i wrote.
I also wrote that all we write here with suggestions what to change how is all complete irrelevant because gw is the only what chagnes things they think should be
xsharkmanx wrote: to say my thoughts to rips and reducing T or W of them, i use only one in my armys and would use a second one at 2000pt and more. I like how it moves the same way like krisis and that is the main reason why i want to play it. The ion is to strong, thats clear and it needs to cost more points.
But if you reduce the wounds or toughness, then i am sure that i wont play the rip like before because i have to be so much more carefull that it will constantly scratch my tableedge and be as far away from the opponent as possible. Until now i played the rip offensive and like i said only one so if you have tauplayer that are not only bringing three of them into play than it should be allright and a more attractive play but if you reduce the T or W than it will be boring like hell because than it will be clear how the tau will react to this - hate generates only opposing hate.
At the end i want to ask you:
Why do you have such threads and discuss how you would nerf this and that? You cant change things, only gw can this do and the new taucodex will maybe there in summer? I dont know what you want with these threads cause they only make you hate the specific unit/combo/army or do you want to see that all are the same oppinion like you?
I dont meen it offensive but i really want to know what you really want to archive with these.
Why we do this? An absolutely fantastic cocktail of a need to create chaos and conflict, to escape boredom, and most importantly, for the lulz
Of what you wrote, I got tgat you were afraid that the unit would play differebtly if reduced in overall toughness, which is exactly what I'm aiming at - I want people to use it differently, as it's supposed to - right now, nothing can really scratch it, and cover won't be needed for the most part... But with a reduction in T and a Vindicator bearing down on you, you will embrace the tried and true JSJ to a whole new degree!
Now, as you explain, that would make you put the Riptide as far away from anything as possible, and that's of course not the point... What I'd do is to reduce tge range of the IA to 36'', and MAYBE the HBC to 24". Why? Firstly, it will force the player to risk the Riptide when using it's weapons, but as long as there's no S 10 close, it should actually be fine against most shooting, as plenty of mathhammerers in this thread have proved. Secondly, it will mske it fit the role of a "breakthrough unit", as right now, it's more of an artillery piece than anything... And that's what we have the Hammerhead and Skyray for. Bear in mind, I do believe that it should be a bit cheaper for it, to compensate.
With these changes, I hope it will be used as the giant, wellarmoured Crisis Suit it is, and not as a moving, shooting, tanking artillery piece. It will change up how you play, but that's the best part - If there's something I love about the new codexes, it's the fact that you can't just play as you've always done anymore. You got to adapt... Just like tge Tau has always done!
A lotta people are complaining about it's damage and really it's damage is only too high because you can't stop it. It's too far away to reach and what can reach it just bounces off. Lowering it's general toughness and reducing it's weapons range would make it have weaknesses. ALL UNITS NEED weaknesses. These changes would make a big difference.
Martel732 wrote: Maybe a better thread theme would have been which units need buffed and which need nerfed. Because I know there are Tau units that I never see used.
Martel732 wrote: Maybe a better thread theme would have been which units need buffed and which need nerfed. Because I know there are Tau units that I never see used.
Perhaps.
How on earth would you buff vespids
Easily. Give them mecha-bug suits that confer a 3+ save. So now they are 3+ jump troops with AP 3 guns. I'm not against giving lists nasty stuff, it just needs to be costed correctly.
The Wise Dane wrote: Why we do this? An absolutely fantastic cocktail of a need to create chaos and conflict, to escape boredom, and most importantly, for the lulz
Of what you wrote, I got tgat you were afraid that the unit would play differebtly if reduced in overall toughness, which is exactly what I'm aiming at - I want people to use it differently, as it's supposed to - right now, nothing can really scratch it, and cover won't be needed for the most part... But with a reduction in T and a Vindicator bearing down on you, you will embrace the tried and true JSJ to a whole new degree!
Now, as you explain, that would make you put the Riptide as far away from anything as possible, and that's of course not the point... What I'd do is to reduce tge range of the IA to 36'', and MAYBE the HBC to 24". Why? Firstly, it will force the player to risk the Riptide when using it's weapons, but as long as there's no S 10 close, it should actually be fine against most shooting, as plenty of mathhammerers in this thread have proved. Secondly, it will mske it fit the role of a "breakthrough unit", as right now, it's more of an artillery piece than anything... And that's what we have the Hammerhead and Skyray for. Bear in mind, I do believe that it should be a bit cheaper for it, to compensate.
With these changes, I hope it will be used as the giant, wellarmoured Crisis Suit it is, and not as a moving, shooting, tanking artillery piece. It will change up how you play, but that's the best part - If there's something I love about the new codexes, it's the fact that you can't just play as you've always done anymore. You got to adapt... Just like tge Tau has always done!
I am not afraid that the rip will be played different, im afraid that the game will be boring as hell against/with tau because nobody would risk to get a 200pt model instakilled with a toughness x2hit. At first you suggested to decrease T and/or W and to get around the new problem which would be created of your change you want to nerf the rip again? hm i dont know what to say but that isnt the right thing/way.
I agree that the rip takes to much firepower to die but reducing T/W isnt the right way, maybe i would delete the option for the 3+.
The Ion is to cheap for what it can do so higher costs and range to max 48" would be ok imo.
48'' Might work too. Right now we are talking about it like the Riptide always will be one-hitted by, say, a Vindicator, but when it gets down to it it's not that simple. First of all, S 10 is rather rare in a ranged form. It's everywhere in melee units, but at longer range, you have to settle with either short range (Vindicator, Demolisher) or one shot (Taychons Arrow, Railgun). This is not something everybody has - In fact, most factions don't have easy access to it. On top of that, the Riptide has a naive 5++ save that will save it 1/3, which isn't much, but still is rather good. Lastly, the platforms on which the S 10 weapons are, are usually easily avoided by a JSJ unit, and can often be shot off the table, if you do it right.
And that's the point - Now you have to do it right. The Riptide will still be very tough and will still be able to tank hits like a melon-fether, but it can't do it without having synergy and support by the rest of the army. It's not always you get a S 10 enemy, but when you do, it'll change up your battleplan - If not, then you just can't play the model right. In any rate, it also gives a really, really good reason to use the 3++ - Do I risk taking a wound, for a higher chance of eliminating a S 10 hit? Or do I maybe opt for the long jump ability, to avoid short ranged weaponry?
I do get your point that it will be too expensive to throw out, but that's not so much of a problem. You could reduce the base cost with 25 pt or so, and it will still be mighty hardy. This then means that you can use a HBC without upgrades as a rather cheap MC to do some damage, then die, or put some points in it and get an IA and some wargear, wellknowing that you need to defend it well now.
Come to think of it, you could actually remove the Invulnerability Save and Nova Ability completely, and then give it the option to have an Power Field 4++ for, like, 60 pt or something, reducing the base cost even further
The Wise Dane wrote: Why we do this? An absolutely fantastic cocktail of a need to create chaos and conflict, to escape boredom, and most importantly, for the lulz
Of what you wrote, I got tgat you were afraid that the unit would play differebtly if reduced in overall toughness, which is exactly what I'm aiming at - I want people to use it differently, as it's supposed to - right now, nothing can really scratch it, and cover won't be needed for the most part... But with a reduction in T and a Vindicator bearing down on you, you will embrace the tried and true JSJ to a whole new degree!
Now, as you explain, that would make you put the Riptide as far away from anything as possible, and that's of course not the point... What I'd do is to reduce tge range of the IA to 36'', and MAYBE the HBC to 24". Why? Firstly, it will force the player to risk the Riptide when using it's weapons, but as long as there's no S 10 close, it should actually be fine against most shooting, as plenty of mathhammerers in this thread have proved. Secondly, it will mske it fit the role of a "breakthrough unit", as right now, it's more of an artillery piece than anything... And that's what we have the Hammerhead and Skyray for. Bear in mind, I do believe that it should be a bit cheaper for it, to compensate.
With these changes, I hope it will be used as the giant, wellarmoured Crisis Suit it is, and not as a moving, shooting, tanking artillery piece. It will change up how you play, but that's the best part - If there's something I love about the new codexes, it's the fact that you can't just play as you've always done anymore. You got to adapt... Just like tge Tau has always done!
I am not afraid that the rip will be played different, im afraid that the game will be boring as hell against/with tau because nobody would risk to get a 200pt model instakilled with a toughness x2hit. At first you suggested to decrease T and/or W and to get around the new problem which would be created of your change you want to nerf the rip again? hm i dont know what to say but that isnt the right thing/way.
I agree that the rip takes to much firepower to die but reducing T/W isnt the right way, maybe i would delete the option for the 3+.
The Ion is to cheap for what it can do so higher costs and range to max 48" would be ok imo.
48'' Might work too. Right now we are talking about it like the Riptide always will be one-hitted by, say, a Vindicator, but when it gets down to it it's not that simple. First of all, S 10 is rather rare in a ranged form. It's everywhere in melee units, but at longer range, you have to settle with either short range (Vindicator, Demolisher) or one shot (Taychons Arrow, Railgun). This is not something everybody has - In fact, most factions don't have easy access to it. On top of that, the Riptide has a naive 5++ save that will save it 1/3, which isn't much, but still is rather good. Lastly, the platforms on which the S 10 weapons are, are usually easily avoided by a JSJ unit, and can often be shot off the table, if you do it right.
And that's the point - Now you have to do it right. The Riptide will still be very tough and will still be able to tank hits like a melon-fether, but it can't do it without having synergy and support by the rest of the army. It's not always you get a S 10 enemy, but when you do, it'll change up your battleplan - If not, then you just can't play the model right. In any rate, it also gives a really, really good reason to use the 3++ - Do I risk taking a wound, for a higher chance of eliminating a S 10 hit? Or do I maybe opt for the long jump ability, to avoid short ranged weaponry?
I do get your point that it will be too expensive to throw out, but that's not so much of a problem. You could reduce the base cost with 25 pt or so, and it will still be mighty hardy. This then means that you can use a HBC without upgrades as a rather cheap MC to do some damage, then die, or put some points in it and get an IA and some wargear, wellknowing that you need to defend it well now.
Come to think of it, you could actually remove the Invulnerability Save and Nova Ability completely, and then give it the option to have an Power Field 4++ for, like, 60 pt or something, reducing the base cost even further
Str 10 is so rare in ranged form...it's risk is negligible. and you still ignore wounds from it of successful hits on 3+/5+....which is a 22% chance. So roughly 4 shots from a vindi a turn to take it down on average - it shoots 1 shot a turn at range 24 with sides exposed to str 5 pulse rifles at this range...it's only going to get 1 shot. Advantage riptide.
48'' Might work too. Right now we are talking about it like the Riptide always will be one-hitted by, say, a Vindicator, but when it gets down to it it's not that simple. First of all, S 10 is rather rare in a ranged form. It's everywhere in melee units, but at longer range, you have to settle with either short range (Vindicator, Demolisher) or one shot (Taychons Arrow, Railgun). This is not something everybody has - In fact, most factions don't have easy access to it. On top of that, the Riptide has a naive 5++ save that will save it 1/3, which isn't much, but still is rather good. Lastly, the platforms on which the S 10 weapons are, are usually easily avoided by a JSJ unit, and can often be shot off the table, if you do it right.
And that's the point - Now you have to do it right. The Riptide will still be very tough and will still be able to tank hits like a melon-fether, but it can't do it without having synergy and support by the rest of the army. It's not always you get a S 10 enemy, but when you do, it'll change up your battleplan - If not, then you just can't play the model right. In any rate, it also gives a really, really good reason to use the 3++ - Do I risk taking a wound, for a higher chance of eliminating a S 10 hit? Or do I maybe opt for the long jump ability, to avoid short ranged weaponry?
I do get your point that it will be too expensive to throw out, but that's not so much of a problem. You could reduce the base cost with 25 pt or so, and it will still be mighty hardy. This then means that you can use a HBC without upgrades as a rather cheap MC to do some damage, then die, or put some points in it and get an IA and some wargear, wellknowing that you need to defend it well now.
Come to think of it, you could actually remove the Invulnerability Save and Nova Ability completely, and then give it the option to have an Power Field 4++ for, like, 60 pt or something, reducing the base cost even further
i mentioned the exact same thing for the t5 but it got dismissed :/. i dont think its necessary to remove the nova ability as it really fits the theme of "experimental" if anything it should just specificy no FNP allowed against its wound.
Now the other issue would be the earth caste thingy from farsight. it at best should be rerolls of 1 or just bump up the roll for nova. and not hand out ammo dump.
Martel732 wrote: Maybe a better thread theme would have been which units need buffed and which need nerfed. Because I know there are Tau units that I never see used.
Perhaps.
How on earth would you buff vespids
Easily. Give them mecha-bug suits that confer a 3+ save. So now they are 3+ jump troops with AP 3 guns. I'm not against giving lists nasty stuff, it just needs to be costed correctly.
They can actually made into pretty good anti-meq assault units quite easily as well.
But who needs anti-meq when the Riptide already killed them all?High model count armies are a much bigger threat. 4-5 good template hits and the marines are done.
Martel732 wrote: But who needs anti-meq when the Riptide already killed them all?High model count armies are a much bigger threat. 4-5 good template hits and the marines are done.
Arnt they supposed to have some kinda neural weapon or was it neutron?
I'm still confused. How is it the HBC Riptide should be nerfed down while the Dreadknight is just fine with similar stats but one less wound?
Why not just remove FNP all together and let it keep the extra wound and T6? The extra wound really is just to balance out that it has get's hot and Nova charge failures.
Martel732 wrote: But who needs anti-meq when the Riptide already killed them all?High model count armies are a much bigger threat. 4-5 good template hits and the marines are done.
Arnt they supposed to have some kinda neural weapon or was it neutron?
Neutron weapon. Using crystals from the core of some planet or something. Cool fluff, really. Horrible model in the game. Typical GW.
Savageconvoy wrote: I'm still confused. How is it the HBC Riptide should be nerfed down while the Dreadknight is just fine with similar stats but one less wound?
So far I think the best solution is to change the Ion Accelerator.
S7 AP3 Heavy 3 Range:48"
Nova Charged: S9 AP2 Heavy 1 Range 36" Large Blast, Gets Hot, Ordnance
Reduced range so now it has to close with the enemy, not just sit back and delete. Further reduced range when you're nova charging it to represent the amount of energy that is being put in to get it to explode with higher strength and AP.
Also means that it can't move and fire the large blast (Ordnance rule). This means that if it wants to hit a unit with that large blast, it will have to get into position the turn before.
Id rather it be the same as the standard ion cannon so keep the 60" have a overcharge version to ap3 large blast then the nova version that bumps up to ST8-9 ap2 and ordance that cannot be used again in the following turn.
Nova Charged: S9 AP2 Heavy 1 Range 36" Large Blast, Gets Hot, Ordnance
Reduced range so now it has to close with the enemy, not just sit back and delete. Further reduced range when you're nova charging it to represent the amount of energy that is being put in to get it to explode with higher strength and AP.
Also means that it can't move and fire the large blast (Ordnance rule). This means that if it wants to hit a unit with that large blast, it will have to get into position the turn before.
Not bad, not bad at all. Maybe that's the most sensible - Just change what the Riptide gets, not what it is.
Higher cost to the Ion Accelerator, very high price to FNP, or maybe removing it altogether, remove Gets Hot! for the Heavy Burst Cannon... It would be a lot better, then
Martel732 wrote: 36" is not close. That's the range were scatterlasers just LULZ marines off the table with impunity.
However, ordnance helps a lot with your change. Very anime, too.
It's quite close when you have to get into position the turn before you can fire. That gives the unit that you think is the target a turn to try and get out of range, spread out to minimise casualties etc.
Then there's the possibility that on the turn you want to fire the blast, after spending a turn getting into the right position, the Nova charge fails.
I really don't think most Tide-haters think 'Knights, of any flavor, are actually good for the game.
Tides cost substantially less than a Land Raider. With better firepower and range.
Land Raider can be one shot by a s10 weapon (most are ap2/1).
So why is it so game-breaking for Tides to be vulnerable to S10?
For that matter, what makes a Tide so stupendously more survivable than a heavily armored Demon Prince?
T5 seems to sound right. I'd prefer classifying the Tau walker as a walker, but that isn't going to happen (the whole 'Tau don't develop walkers' means they don't make Riptides. So either abandon Tides, or abandon that line).
Although I think I'd prefer Broadsides be t5 3+, and Tides be t6 3+. They're the same tech as Crisis Suits, only more durable/tougher. Seems like a Krak missile should get through their armor easily, but not outright blow them apart with a single missile.
But then, I doubt I'll ever add a Tide to my Tau anyways.
Desubot wrote: Id rather it be the same as the standard ion cannon so keep the 60" have a overcharge version to ap3 large blast then the nova version that bumps up to ST8-9 ap2 and ordance that cannot be used again in the following turn.
I thought about that but that didn't address some of the problems, in my opinion.
60" range still gives it the ability to touch most of the board and a standard overcharge shot leads to the current problem that it wouldn't need to nova-charge the gun to take out large units of infantry, unless they were TEQs. As it is now, the IA has a 1/6 chance (Gets Hot) of not being able to drop a large blast anywhere on the board. That 1/6 chance can be reduced to a 1/36 chance by markerlights making it BS6. That basically makes the risk of the IA not dropping a large blast non existent.
So we'd still end up with static riptides who only nova charge for the 3++.
Bharring wrote: I really don't think most Tide-haters think 'Knights, of any flavor, are actually good for the game.
Tides cost substantially less than a Land Raider. With better firepower and range.
Land Raider can be one shot by a s10 weapon (most are ap2/1).
So why is it so game-breaking for Tides to be vulnerable to S10?
For that matter, what makes a Tide so stupendously more survivable than a heavily armored Demon Prince?
T5 seems to sound right. I'd prefer classifying the Tau walker as a walker, but that isn't going to happen (the whole 'Tau don't develop walkers' means they don't make Riptides. So either abandon Tides, or abandon that line).
Although I think I'd prefer Broadsides be t5 3+, and Tides be t6 3+. They're the same tech as Crisis Suits, only more durable/tougher. Seems like a Krak missile should get through their armor easily, but not outright blow them apart with a single missile.
But then, I doubt I'll ever add a Tide to my Tau anyways.
its ok when the rip is vulnerable to S10 weapons but Dreadknights and wraithknights have also better defensive and offensive than a land raider so they should be vulnerable to this sort of weapons, too. Dont know what to do with tyraMCs, dont have experience with them.
The point which is not into account is, that the raider is a transporter for terminator so that they get into cc and that is his main task not to shoot down whole armys by itself.
Desubot wrote: Id rather it be the same as the standard ion cannon so keep the 60" have a overcharge version to ap3 large blast then the nova version that bumps up to ST8-9 ap2 and ordance that cannot be used again in the following turn.
I thought about that but that didn't address some of the problems, in my opinion.
60" range still gives it the ability to touch most of the board and a standard overcharge shot leads to the current problem that it wouldn't need to nova-charge the gun to take out large units of infantry, unless they were TEQs. As it is now, the IA has a 1/6 chance (Gets Hot) of not being able to drop a large blast anywhere on the board. That 1/6 chance can be reduced to a 1/36 chance by markerlights making it BS6. That basically makes the risk of the IA not dropping a large blast non existent.
So we'd still end up with static riptides who only nova charge for the 3++.
Its Tau
its never going to not be static. The BS6 thing doesn't necessarily let you "the ability to reroll ones" at least thats how its been played in my area (not that its ever come up)
Also i would Really prefer the 3++ be a 4++ for shooting 3++ for CC or within like 12" or something.
No one model should have the job of 'shoot down an entire army themself'.
The DK is already less survivable than the Tide by about 20%. And the WK costs a *lot* more, and needs to threaten melee to be effective. The Tide has better shooting and range for less, and so should be less survivable. Not that I wouldn't mind seeimg those two also knocked down a peg.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I don't know that the Tide needs help in melee. It'll still beat a 10man Tac squad w/ a melta bomb rather easily.
its never going to not be static. The BS6 thing doesn't necessarily let you "the ability to reroll ones" at least thats how its been played in my area (not that its ever come up)
Also i would Really prefer the 3++ be a 4++ for shooting 3++ for CC or within like 12" or something.
The BS6 thing used to be unclear in 6th but the 7th book specifically mentions it as allowing you to re-roll Gets Hot! for weapons which don't roll to hit, now.
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule), a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1; it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit.
And I disagree about Tau always being static. Crisis suits with Plasma Rifles have to move, as do Fusion Blaster suits. Missilesides and Missile Crisis suits have 36" range and so can be outranged by Lascannons and missile launchers which can ID them, so they often have to move. Fire Warriors are quite static, but don't need to be on a board with plenty of cover for them. Really the only unit which fits the static bill is the 72" IA Riptide (and possibly our tanks as they can no longer move and shoot like fast vehicles and typically have the range to sit still)
If we remove the massive range of the Riptide then we're forced to move to close with the enemy, else opponents can just sit outside 36" with Lascannons and Krak missiles and their equivalents and take out our stronger units.
its never going to not be static.
The BS6 thing doesn't necessarily let you "the ability to reroll ones" at least thats how its been played in my area (not that its ever come up)
Also i would Really prefer the 3++ be a 4++ for shooting 3++ for CC or within like 12" or something.
The BS6 thing used to be unclear in 6th but the 7th book specifically mentions it as allowing you to re-roll Gets Hot! for weapons which don't roll to hit, now.
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule), a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1; it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit.
Ah good to know. i think i had that engrained since 6th
One thing that's bothering me and it keeps coming up.
How is one unit with a single S8 ap2 blast destroying entire armies? More specifically in 1 turn.
Also a lascannon on a riptide is 2/3 hit then 5/6 wound then 1/3 save (5++).
So 0.66x0.83x0.33=0.18
Guess what that is the same as?
Terminators
Dreadknights and anything else with a 5++
Guess what else Meltaguns have the same effect, so does everything strength 8 and above with ap2 or better.
I realise you might not use a lascannon to kill a terminator, my point is maths doesn't really prove that much.
I want to generally be helpful here.
Who was it who had BA with issues killing a riptide?
Take a 5 man assault squad with 2 Meltaguns and 2 fusion pistols in a drop pod. Cost 135 point and drop it next to the riptide and then move like 1"-2" away and space them out.
Take 2 for redundancy purposes.
What is the math for that? I'm not sure. But I'm sure it'll take 2/3 wounds bear in mind this is turn 1 and the riptide probably isn't 3++ (although it might or have lost a wound).
Just a suggestion. I build marines squads for specific purposes.
Blood Angels are pretty good at podding. I appreciate the cost might be restrictive.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also BA command squad with Meltaguns in pod is 165? With feel no pain. They're pretty good. Obviously if you don't have/use pods. It might be an issue
We are not buffing the Riptide in CC, WHY? Why is that even on the table as a option? Now lets phrase the Riptides problem simply, it is the most durable MC in the game and it isn't even a melee or 12 inch range creature.
Quickjager wrote: We are not buffing the Riptide in CC, WHY? Why is that even on the table as a option? Now lets phrase the Riptides problem simply, it is the most durable MC in the game and it isn't even a melee or 12 inch range creature.
I could see the riptide getting a small melee buff if it was in the Farsight Codex or rolling with Aun'shi maybe.
Suggested nerfs in my mind.
Limit the range or remove the generator (although that might increase survivability instead of reduce it).
I don't really know how to nerf it without ruining the unit entirely.
Maybe T5 is the answer.
I just find it difficult to contemplate when a wraith lord has T8.
I think we all agree the wraith knight is a bit OP. I'm shocked people think the WK is less OP.
It's T8 3+ 12" move (with 5++ possible) and has 3 possible twin linked ap2 blasts. Multiple blast rule is place the first blast, roll the scatter and place touching (dependent on where) all re-rolls. Surely your going to get more like 6-7 wounds every shooting phase.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Suggested nerfs in my mind.
Limit the range or remove the generator (although that might increase survivability instead of reduce it).
I don't really know how to nerf it without ruining the unit entirely.
Maybe T5 is the answer.
I just find it difficult to contemplate when a wraith lord has T8.
I think we all agree the wraith knight is a bit OP. I'm shocked people think the WK is less OP.
It's T8 3+ 12" move (with 5++ possible) and has 3 possible twin linked ap2 blasts. Multiple blast rule is place the first blast, roll the scatter and place touching (dependent on where) all re-rolls. Surely your going to get more like 6-7 wounds every shooting phase.
Make Tau suits Mechs. So they're empty and you have to purchase a pilot. This would solve the walker vs MC issue.
Because creature in monstrous creature infers living and walker infers mechanical.
Walker means something ungainly that can do some stuff but isn't agile and stuff like a person.
Creature in these rules represents something big but acts like its living. Tau suits are close to 'living' because they are extensions of the pilot like the dread knight whilst a dreadnought could be an MC it is clunky and not very agile.
Introduce Mech class, everything makes sense people are piloting a suit that acts like its an extension of them and bumps up the base cost.
Might require some minor point amendments on some units though.
I agree that the CSM ones should be MC
Automatically Appended Next Post: Make Tau suits Mechs. So they're empty and you have to purchase a pilot. This would solve the walker vs MC issue.
Because creature in monstrous creature infers living and walker infers mechanical.
Walker means something ungainly that can do some stuff but isn't agile and stuff like a person.
Creature in these rules represents something big but acts like its living. Tau suits are close to 'living' because they are extensions of the pilot like the dread knight whilst a dreadnought could be an MC it is clunky and not very agile.
Introduce Mech class, everything makes sense people are piloting a suit that acts like its an extension of them and bumps up the base cost.
Might require some minor point amendments on some units though.
There are more reasons it shouldn't be one than reasons it should.
There only needs to be one reason to make it a walker - the damn thing *is* a walker.
It's closer to a giant suit of power-armor than a walker. Also walkers (outside of the eldar titans and perhaps war-walkers and wasp walkers) aren't supposed to be as nimble or fast as the riptide. A riptide wouldn't really fit the aesthetic. Plus the riptide is not supposed to be "walking" in so many words. Its got a jetpack. It would have more maneuverability than a standard walker its size should have.
Being they are daemon-engines, the term "engine" denotes they are meant to be mechanical and vehicles in function. If the chaos lord in question wants a MC, he will find a giant spawn of greater daemon to fo-fill the task better.
It's closer to a giant suit of power-armor than a walker.
The pilot takes up far too little space for that to be true.
Unless you're telling me Tau have vat-grown pilots to be only marginally smaller than the Riptide?
The Imperial Answer wrote: Also walkers (outside of the eldar titans and perhaps war-walkers and wasp walkers) aren't supposed to be as nimble or fast as the riptide.
So then it shouldn't exist at all? Got it.
The Imperial Answer wrote: Plus the riptide is not supposed to be "walking" in so many words. Its got a jetpack. It would have more maneuverability than a standard walker its size should have.
Boniface wrote: Suggested nerfs in my mind.
Limit the range or remove the generator (although that might increase survivability instead of reduce it).
I don't really know how to nerf it without ruining the unit entirely.
Maybe T5 is the answer.
I just find it difficult to contemplate when a wraith lord has T8.
I think we all agree the wraith knight is a bit OP. I'm shocked people think the WK is less OP.
It's T8 3+ 12" move (with 5++ possible) and has 3 possible twin linked ap2 blasts. Multiple blast rule is place the first blast, roll the scatter and place touching (dependent on where) all re-rolls. Surely your going to get more like 6-7 wounds every shooting phase.
The thing is, with the 3" Blasts and the sync, that MC actually costs 300 Points, which is quite a bit more than the riptide. The next thing is its 3+ Armor which can be pierced by far more weapons, best example would be rocket launchers. The next big thing on the list is that this weapon can never get "ignore cover". There may be the option of a psyker buffing it, but that is nothing you can actually count on because the psychic powers are random and you have to do your warp charge tests which can be denied by your opponent. The last thing is that with a range of 36" in order to get it twin linked you are also in a close range to the big hitters in melee, or other weapons who can really hurt but have a low range, like meltas or grav besides droppod troops or bikers.
The pilot takes up far too little space for that to be true.
Unless you're telling me Tau have vat-grown pilots to be only marginally smaller than the Riptide?
It is in fact described as being "worn" in the Tau Codex.
vipoid wrote: So then it shouldn't exist at all? Got it..
Not as a walker. As a MC sure. But as a walker it wouldn't make a lot of sense. There were early prototypes more akin to walkers in the Tau codex but they were scrapped because the Tau thought they were too ponderous. Also if the Tau wanted a walker, they would have built it like a walker instead of a giant suit of armor.
Not as a walker. As a MC sure. But as a walker it wouldn't make a lot of sense. There were early prototypes more akin to walkers in the Tau codex but they were scrapped because the Tau thought they were too ponderous. Also if the Tau wanted a walker, they would have built it like a walker instead of a giant suit of armor.
I don't understand this.
Why does it make more sense for it to be a MC when it clearly isn't a MC?
So what you're saying is that a mech piloted by a fishman in the fetal position via a neural link as a proxy body is more deserving of being an MC than a daemonic entity controlling a mechanical body exactly as if it was their own (with the same capabilities?)
I'm not saying that it should be a Walker, nor am I saying Forge/Maulerfiends should be MCs but you can't justify 1 being an MC while something that's a Walker is seemingly more deserving of that title based on what a MC actually is.
Also on the 'riptide is too ponderous to be walker' thing... no it's not. The Maulerfiend is a walker that moves 12" because it has a special rule. All you need to do is give the WalkerTide a special rule like this:
Jet Systems: In the assault phase the Riptide may make a Trust Move as if it had the Jet type. Furthermore, it ignores the effects of difficult terrains but treats it as dangerous terrains andunless it starts or ends it move in terrain, it does not need to take dangerous terrain checks.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: So what you're saying is that a mech piloted by a fishman in the fetal position via a neural link as a proxy body is more deserving of being an MC than a daemonic entity controlling a mechanical body exactly as if it was their own (with the same capabilities?)
Nope, I only said that the Riptide should be a MC
If I had my way, many others including the Maulerfiend would also be MCs
You know...and for any battletech fans out there...
The tau battlesuits all use wounds and saves rather than AV,,from stealthsuits to the Riptide(although the stealth suit is actually barely larger than the pilot)
So..the fluffy reason may be due to artifical muscles and such attributing to its fluid motion and overall ability to take damage..Mynomer tech..thickly bundled and corded..so that individual penetrations and such are not as catastrophic as on more mundane constructs.
but the real reason is its just a progression from the XV-8 mechanics..scaled up and slapped a Universal rule on...to prevent making a special case for one unit...may not fit perfectly, but since when has GW really cared that much.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: So what you're saying is that a mech piloted by a fishman in the fetal position via a neural link as a proxy body is more deserving of being an MC than a daemonic entity controlling a mechanical body exactly as if it was their own (with the same capabilities?)
Nope, I only said that the Riptide should be a MC
If I had my way, many others including the Maulerfiend would also be MCs
Sorry Wulfmar, I was more aiming this at The Imperial Answer. Didn't see your post (pretty sure you posted while I was writing it up )
I would be okay with it being an MC if it had the typical toughness and wounds of a regular Tau warrior. Being shot with a tank cannon would probably pretty damaging to the pilot's mind, to the point that they probably wouldn't be able to function afterward. Reminds me of a scene from Gundam Unicorn where the Unicorn (linked directly to the pilot's mind á la Riptide) gets punched square in the midsection, causing the pilot to vomit and pass out.
Don't even get me started on the Forge/Mauler fiend and Defiled being Walkers instead of MCs.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I would be okay with it being an MC if it had the typical toughness and wounds of a regular Tau warrior. Being shot with a tank cannon would probably pretty damaging to the pilot's mind, to the point that they probably wouldn't be able to function afterward. Reminds me of a scene from Gundam Unicorn where the Unicorn (linked directly to the pilot's mind á la Riptide) gets punched square in the midsection, causing the pilot to vomit and pass out.
Sounds like a really stupid way to design your battlesuit, having its sensors be capable of incapacitating its pilot. Something any rigorous testing would spot and fix.
casvalremdeikun wrote: the Unicorn (linked directly to the pilot's mind á la Riptide) gets punched square in the midsection, causing the pilot to vomit and pass out.
That sounds ridiculous though. It'd be like giving the suit olfactory sensors and having it be susceptible to tear gas.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Also on the 'riptide is too ponderous to be walker' thing... no it's not.
I said the early prototypes were. It even mentions it in the codex under riptide development.
Sorry, meant to write that the other way; "walkers too ponderous for a riptide to be one".
The point still stands that it can feasibly be a walker ruleswise if you add 1 or 2 special rules to make it move like Jetpack models, like how the Maulerfiend has a special rule allowing it to move 12" a turn. The point of it being no more deserving to be an MC than the currently-walker fiends and vice-versa also stands. You can't justify the difference between the two as it always turns into a 'well then most walkers should be MCs' arguement because the way a Riptide is controlled is the same as how dreadnoughts and certain deffdreads are and the way wraithknights/lords are controlled is the same way daemon engines are.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Don't even get me started on the Forge/Mauler fiend and Defiled being Walkers instead of MCs.
A lot of the daemon engines would be less potent if they weren't walkers. They would loose the ability to fire all of their weapons in one turn, versus monstrous creatures who may only fire two. The Defiler and Forgefiend were meant to be heavier weapons platforms in the lore, the defiler in particular to replace the unreliable chaos dreadnoughts. They wouldn't be as powerful if they were restricted to what they could fire in one volley.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Don't even get me started on the Forge/Mauler fiend and Defiled being Walkers instead of MCs.
A lot of the daemon engines would be less potent if they were walkers. They would loose the ability to fire all of their weapons in one turn, versus monstrous creatures who may only fire two. The Defiler and Forgefiend were meant to be heavier weapons platforms in the lore, the defiler in particular to replace the unreliable chaos dreadnoughts. They wouldn't be as powerful if they were restricted to what they could fire in one volley.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Don't even get me started on the Forge/Mauler fiend and Defiled being Walkers instead of MCs.
A lot of the daemon engines would be less potent if they were walkers. They would loose the ability to fire all of their weapons in one turn, versus monstrous creatures who may only fire two. The Defiler and Forgefiend were meant to be heavier weapons platforms in the lore, the defiler in particular to replace the unreliable chaos dreadnoughts. They wouldn't be as powerful if they were restricted to what they could fire in one volley.
The Daemon Engines ARE Walkers!
I think it was just a typo in that first sentence. Considering the rest of the post is about the advantages that walkers have in terms of how many weapons they can fire and why that benefits the daemon engines...
casvalremdeikun wrote: Don't even get me started on the Forge/Mauler fiend and Defiled being Walkers instead of MCs.
A lot of the daemon engines would be less potent if they were walkers. They would loose the ability to fire all of their weapons in one turn, versus monstrous creatures who may only fire two. The Defiler and Forgefiend were meant to be heavier weapons platforms in the lore, the defiler in particular to replace the unreliable chaos dreadnoughts. They wouldn't be as powerful if they were restricted to what they could fire in one volley.
The Daemon Engines ARE Walkers!
I believe he meant "weren't". Because in the next sentence he goes on to say that as walkers they can shoot all their weapons, if they were MCs they could only shoot two.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Don't even get me started on the Forge/Mauler fiend and Defiled being Walkers instead of MCs.
A lot of the daemon engines would be less potent if they were walkers. They would loose the ability to fire all of their weapons in one turn, versus monstrous creatures who may only fire two. The Defiler and Forgefiend were meant to be heavier weapons platforms in the lore, the defiler in particular to replace the unreliable chaos dreadnoughts. They wouldn't be as powerful if they were restricted to what they could fire in one volley.
The Daemon Engines ARE Walkers!
I think it was just a typo in that first sentence. Considering the rest of the post is about the advantages that walkers have in terms of how many weapons they can fire and why that benefits the daemon engines...
casvalremdeikun wrote: Don't even get me started on the Forge/Mauler fiend and Defiled being Walkers instead of MCs.
A lot of the daemon engines would be less potent if they were walkers. They would loose the ability to fire all of their weapons in one turn, versus monstrous creatures who may only fire two. The Defiler and Forgefiend were meant to be heavier weapons platforms in the lore, the defiler in particular to replace the unreliable chaos dreadnoughts. They wouldn't be as powerful if they were restricted to what they could fire in one volley.
The Daemon Engines ARE Walkers!
I believe he meant "weren't". Because in the next sentence he goes on to say that as walkers they can shoot all their weapons, if they were MCs they could only shoot two.
I get that now. I stopped reading after the If Daemon Engines Were Walkers part. Sorry!
casvalremdeikun wrote: Don't even get me started on the Forge/Mauler fiend and Defiled being Walkers instead of MCs.
A lot of the daemon engines would be less potent if they were walkers. They would loose the ability to fire all of their weapons in one turn, versus monstrous creatures who may only fire two. The Defiler and Forgefiend were meant to be heavier weapons platforms in the lore, the defiler in particular to replace the unreliable chaos dreadnoughts. They wouldn't be as powerful if they were restricted to what they could fire in one volley.
The Daemon Engines ARE Walkers!
I think it was just a typo in that first sentence. Considering the rest of the post is about the advantages that walkers have in terms of how many weapons they can fire and why that benefits the daemon engines...
casvalremdeikun wrote: Don't even get me started on the Forge/Mauler fiend and Defiled being Walkers instead of MCs.
A lot of the daemon engines would be less potent if they were walkers. They would loose the ability to fire all of their weapons in one turn, versus monstrous creatures who may only fire two. The Defiler and Forgefiend were meant to be heavier weapons platforms in the lore, the defiler in particular to replace the unreliable chaos dreadnoughts. They wouldn't be as powerful if they were restricted to what they could fire in one volley.
The Daemon Engines ARE Walkers!
I believe he meant "weren't". Because in the next sentence he goes on to say that as walkers they can shoot all their weapons, if they were MCs they could only shoot two.
I get that now. I stopped reading after the If Daemon Engines Were Walkers part. Sorry!
I've come across plenty of furniture with Shedd blocking terrain. However largely that was before 6 in a diverse area. We have relocated ever since then.
perrsyu wrote: I've come across plenty of furniture with Shedd blocking terrain. However largely that was before 6 in a diverse area. We have relocated ever since then.
Boniface wrote: Suggested nerfs in my mind.
Limit the range or remove the generator (although that might increase survivability instead of reduce it).
I don't really know how to nerf it without ruining the unit entirely.
Maybe T5 is the answer.
I just find it difficult to contemplate when a wraith lord has T8.
I think we all agree the wraith knight is a bit OP. I'm shocked people think the WK is less OP.
It's T8 3+ 12" move (with 5++ possible) and has 3 possible twin linked ap2 blasts. Multiple blast rule is place the first blast, roll the scatter and place touching (dependent on where) all re-rolls. Surely your going to get more like 6-7 wounds every shooting phase.
Sure, if you don't know the rules I'm sure you would think it's overpowered.
Spoiler:
“Multiple Blasts
If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Blast special rule, scatter each shot, one at a time, as described above and determine how many hits are scored with each individual blast marker. After the last shot, add up the total number of hits scored and roll all of the To Wound rolls as normal.”
Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Warhammer 40,000.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
Boniface wrote: Suggested nerfs in my mind.
Limit the range or remove the generator (although that might increase survivability instead of reduce it).
I don't really know how to nerf it without ruining the unit entirely.
Maybe T5 is the answer.
I just find it difficult to contemplate when a wraith lord has T8.
I think we all agree the wraith knight is a bit OP. I'm shocked people think the WK is less OP.
It's T8 3+ 12" move (with 5++ possible) and has 3 possible twin linked ap2 blasts. Multiple blast rule is place the first blast, roll the scatter and place touching (dependent on where) all re-rolls. Surely your going to get more like 6-7 wounds every shooting phase.
Sure, if you don't know the rules I'm sure you would think it's overpowered.
Spoiler:
“Multiple Blasts
If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Blast special rule, scatter each shot, one at a time, as described above and determine how many hits are scored with each individual blast marker. After the last shot, add up the total number of hits scored and roll all of the To Wound rolls as normal.”
Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Warhammer 40,000.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
No, I'm aware of how they work. And I still think the chassis can do too much for the points. One issue I have is that with 2+/5+++FNP, gets hot isn't even a thing for the Riptide.
BoomWolf wrote: And now we see the true face of "nerf the entire riptide, not just the IA" side.
People who does not actually know the basic rules very well.
I wouldn't blame anyone for not remembering how certain rules work, not with the amount of rules we're working with in 40K...
I still can't for the life of me remember the flier rules, for example. Read it thrice. Nope, nothing stuck.
Boniface wrote: We're the old rules for multiple blasts they could touch and scattered only as far as the edge of the blast marker, or has it only ever been barrage?
Only ever Barrage. Unless it switched in 3rd - I played in second and read the 4th edition rules and it wasn't like that for Blast in either of those.
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BoomWolf wrote: And now we see the true face of "nerf the entire riptide, not just the IA" side.
People who does not actually know the basic rules very well.
Poor assumption. You should look at who corrected him and that persons stance in this thread.
BoomWolf wrote: And now we see the true face of "nerf the entire riptide, not just the IA" side.
People who does not actually know the basic rules very well.
Riptide is very easy to understand. No advanced rules come into play when using it other than the nova rules which are very easy to understand. Also I think you'd find more people complaining about riptides being indestructible than causing too much damage. Everything tau does a lot of damage. Indestructible and tau just doesn't work together. Ends up being unstoppable.
BoomWolf wrote: And now we see the true face of "nerf the entire riptide, not just the IA" side.
People who does not actually know the basic rules very well.
Riptide is very easy to understand. No advanced rules come into play when using it other than the nova rules which are very easy to understand. Also I think you'd find more people complaining about riptides being indestructible than causing too much damage. Everything tau does a lot of damage. Indestructible and tau just doesn't work together. Ends up being unstoppable.
Instead of a nerf, how about a price increase. It would better reflect its value and keep people from taking as many.
So do explain to me why on every single thread about the riptid (every month or so) I need to explain all over again the outlandish difference between the HBC and the IA.
Or that the HBC riptide is not at all even durable, due to the sheer amount of self-inflicted wounds he causes.
Because I lost count on how many times I had to do it. including on this very thread, and people still don't seem to grasp that basic concept that the two guns make it might as well be a whole other unit.
And even more boggling is how they keep failing to grasp that the fact one setup is overpowered and the other isn't means that the problem is NECESSARILY not in the base itself, but in what differentiates the two setups.
BoomWolf wrote: And now we see the true face of "nerf the entire riptide, not just the IA" side.
People who does not actually know the basic rules very well.
Riptide is very easy to understand. No advanced rules come into play when using it other than the nova rules which are very easy to understand. Also I think you'd find more people complaining about riptides being indestructible than causing too much damage. Everything tau does a lot of damage. Indestructible and tau just doesn't work together. Ends up being unstoppable.
Then how come this unstoppable Tau doesn't do all that well.in a competitive environment?
IMO the main source of disagreement in this thread is that we are discussing two different things:
- On the one hand there's people discussing the Riptide in the real world, where Dreadknights, Imperial Knights, Wraithknights and IoM armies cherry picking allies to fill their weaknesses or boost their strength are a thing and Tau needs to compete against all that on their own.
-On the other hand there's people discussing the Riptide in a hypothetical world where everything is perfectly balanced.
Not saying any point of view is wrong (since the discussion is academic anyway as GW doesn't care about what we think), just that it breeds different expectations about how strong a Riptide should be.
BoomWolf wrote: And now we see the true face of "nerf the entire riptide, not just the IA" side.
People who does not actually know the basic rules very well.
Riptide is very easy to understand. No advanced rules come into play when using it other than the nova rules which are very easy to understand. Also I think you'd find more people complaining about riptides being indestructible than causing too much damage. Everything tau does a lot of damage. Indestructible and tau just doesn't work together. Ends up being unstoppable.
Then how come this unstoppable Tau doesn't do all that well.in a competitive environment?
IMO the main source of disagreement in this thread is that we are discussing two different things:
- On the one hand there's people discussing the Riptide in the real world, where Dreadknights, Imperial Knights, Wraithknights and IoM armies cherry picking allies to fill their weaknesses or boost their strength are a thing and Tau needs to compete against all that on their own.
-On the other hand there's people discussing the Riptide in a hypothetical world where everything is perfectly balanced.
Not saying any point of view is wrong (since the discussion is academic anyway as GW doesn't care about what we think), just that it breeds different expectations about how strong a Riptide should be.
Hhurray someone that sees this whole discussion like i do!
Martel732 wrote: No, I'm aware of how they work. And I still think the chassis can do too much for the points. One issue I have is that with 2+/5+++FNP, gets hot isn't even a thing for the Riptide.
FNP puts the riptide at 215 points. Thats a pretty big sink imo. It also does not make the ride invincible, i have lost my riptide due to gets hot rolls a few times. So it is something. As i have said before yes it is a tough unit, many other armies have T6+ units as well. The trick woth units like the riptide is volume of fire. A group of 10-20 guardsmen are more likely to kill the riptide than a tank is. Because the tide has just one save to make as opposed to the 20-40 shots of an infantry squad.
I keap bringing it up but try to kill a squad of thunderwolf cavalry with storm shield. 2+/3p
++ is damn near impossible. and they will whipe any squad they get a charge on.
Well looking at the riptide, yes one variant is extremely powerful. But for all the flak it gets, there are walkers or MCs of similar toughness and size that have a lot more in capabilities or support their army in more direct ways. For instance:
Dread Knight: Generates a warp charge and is a psyker.
Trygons and Mawlocs: Can provide a tunnel to deepstrike other units in without scattering or in the case of the Prime, provide synapse (and can take a free strike at a unit when they tunnel up).
Gorkanaut - Morkanaut: (Morkanaut) provides a 5++ save to anything within 6 of the unit, not to mention anything their klaw scores an unsaved wound on is going at initiative 1 till the end of their next turn.
The riptide, meanwhile, kind of operates on its own and doesn't have any capabilities that can benefit other units as directly outside of maybe the markerlight and supporting fire (unless there is something I am unaware of).
That being said a points price adjustment is still needed.
Martel732 wrote: No, I'm aware of how they work. And I still think the chassis can do too much for the points. One issue I have is that with 2+/5+++FNP, gets hot isn't even a thing for the Riptide.
FNP puts the riptide at 215 points. Thats a pretty big sink imo. It also does not make the ride invincible, i have lost my riptide due to gets hot rolls a few times. So it is something. As i have said before yes it is a tough unit, many other armies have T6+ units as well. The trick woth units like the riptide is volume of fire. A group of 10-20 guardsmen are more likely to kill the riptide than a tank is. Because the tide has just one save to make as opposed to the 20-40 shots of an infantry squad.
I keap bringing it up but try to kill a squad of thunderwolf cavalry with storm shield. 2+/3p
++ is damn near impossible. and they will whipe any squad they get a charge on.
How much does that cavalry squad cost?
Also, as I have stated, the Riptide killing itself on turn 5 after the enemy is decimated is a purely pyrrhic victory.
Martel732 wrote: No, I'm aware of how they work. And I still think the chassis can do too much for the points. One issue I have is that with 2+/5+++FNP, gets hot isn't even a thing for the Riptide.
FNP puts the riptide at 215 points. Thats a pretty big sink imo. It also does not make the ride invincible, i have lost my riptide due to gets hot rolls a few times. So it is something. As i have said before yes it is a tough unit, many other armies have T6+ units as well. The trick woth units like the riptide is volume of fire. A group of 10-20 guardsmen are more likely to kill the riptide than a tank is. Because the tide has just one save to make as opposed to the 20-40 shots of an infantry squad.
I keap bringing it up but try to kill a squad of thunderwolf cavalry with storm shield. 2+/3p
++ is damn near impossible. and they will whipe any squad they get a charge on.
How much does that cavalry squad cost?
Also, as I have stated, the Riptide killing itself on turn 5 after the enemy is decimated is a purely pyrrhic victory.
3 Thunderwolfs have 6 lifepoints and with thundershields they cost 165pt.
I dont know if this is a good comparison cause these troops are completly different. Their durability is likly the same i have to agree with that but with a advantage to the Rip, therefore with T5 and native 4A -> in charge 6 they really kill everything that gets in there way.
Both, the Thunderwolfe cavalry and the Rip are great units but i wouldnt compare them to justify costs.
The Imperial Answer wrote: Trygons and Mawlocs: Can provide a tunnel to deepstrike other units in without scattering or in the case of the Prime, provide synapse (and can take a free strike at a unit when they tunnel up).
Trygons (and Primes) cost more than a Riptide for far less survivability (worse armor save, no invul, no FNP). And the tunnel is so overrated it's not even funny.
And the Trygons can't take a free strike at a unit, only the Mawloc can. And the Mawloc can really only do that - it's about as good in CC as the Riptide is and has literally zero shooting.
Martel732 wrote: No, I'm aware of how they work. And I still think the chassis can do too much for the points. One issue I have is that with 2+/5+++FNP, gets hot isn't even a thing for the Riptide.
FNP puts the riptide at 215 points. Thats a pretty big sink imo. It also does not make the ride invincible, i have lost my riptide due to gets hot rolls a few times. So it is something. As i have said before yes it is a tough unit, many other armies have T6+ units as well. The trick woth units like the riptide is volume of fire. A group of 10-20 guardsmen are more likely to kill the riptide than a tank is. Because the tide has just one save to make as opposed to the 20-40 shots of an infantry squad.
I keap bringing it up but try to kill a squad of thunderwolf cavalry with storm shield. 2+/3p
++ is damn near impossible. and they will whipe any squad they get a charge on.
How much does that cavalry squad cost?
Also, as I have stated, the Riptide killing itself on turn 5 after the enemy is decimated is a purely pyrrhic victory.
If you get 'decimated' at 1850 by a single Riptide then maybe the problem is more with your list and not the Riptide?
It's never just one. So the tri- or tetra- Riptide list decimates an enemy list and then the Tau loses *maybe* one to a gets hot roll. Sure seems worth it to me.
Martel732 wrote: It's never just one. So the tri- or tetra- Riptide list decimates an enemy list and then the Tau loses *maybe* one to a gets hot roll. Sure seems worth it to me.
A few things. First off, we've already discussed the problems with your games. It's not the Riptide, it's the players and the tables. You can actively do something to fix your problem, but choose not to. We can't help you there.
The second is that you still want a solution that makes multiple Riptides bad and would ruin it for people that want to take one, and make sure nobody ever fields a HBC which will not fix the problem.
You keep harping on about how it can wipe out a lot of enemies. We get that. Everyone gets that. The IA is broken. Fine. Nobody has ever said otherwise in this thread that I am aware of.
Why does the HBC version have to suffer for that?
I only take 1 and sometimes it does nothing. Other times it does everything. A great way to weaken a riptide is to focus fire the marker light support, commanders and pathfinders. Without markerlights the tau army as a whole gets weaker.
Reason i compare to thunderwolf cavalry is that TWC is devastating against Tau and there is very little we can do against it. 12" move and a refilling charge is very threatening to Tau. I would dare say there is little tau can do to stop the wolves.
SGTPozy wrote: Well SW are extremely OP so there's no surprise that we struggle against them.
Fire warriors destroy the thunderwolves before they even get in assault...get real.
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Shaso_Keo wrote: I only take 1 and sometimes it does nothing. Other times it does everything. A great way to weaken a riptide is to focus fire the marker light support, commanders and pathfinders. Without markerlights the tau army as a whole gets weaker.
Reason i compare to thunderwolf cavalry is that TWC is devastating against Tau and there is very little we can do against it. 12" move and a refilling charge is very threatening to Tau. I would dare say there is little tau can do to stop the wolves.
Why don't you tarpit them with a riptide? It would take them all game to kill one.
Martel732 wrote: No, I'm aware of how they work. And I still think the chassis can do too much for the points. One issue I have is that with 2+/5+++FNP, gets hot isn't even a thing for the Riptide.
FNP puts the riptide at 215 points. Thats a pretty big sink imo. It also does not make the ride invincible, i have lost my riptide due to gets hot rolls a few times. So it is something. As i have said before yes it is a tough unit, many other armies have T6+ units as well. The trick woth units like the riptide is volume of fire. A group of 10-20 guardsmen are more likely to kill the riptide than a tank is. Because the tide has just one save to make as opposed to the 20-40 shots of an infantry squad.
I keap bringing it up but try to kill a squad of thunderwolf cavalry with storm shield. 2+/3p
++ is damn near impossible. and they will whipe any squad they get a charge on.
How much does that cavalry squad cost?
Also, as I have stated, the Riptide killing itself on turn 5 after the enemy is decimated is a purely pyrrhic victory.
3 Thunderwolfs have 6 lifepoints and with thundershields they cost 165pt.
I dont know if this is a good comparison cause these troops are completly different. Their durability is likly the same i have to agree with that but with a advantage to the Rip, therefore with T5 and native 4A -> in charge 6 they really kill everything that gets in there way.
Both, the Thunderwolfe cavalry and the Rip are great units but i wouldnt compare them to justify costs.
Their durability is significantly less. Riptides have t6 and 2+ save and a 5+ FNP. Vs small arms the riptide might as well be considered bullet proff. At t5 3++ Thunderwolves arent anymore survivable vs small arms than attack bikes - focus first from a few troop squads will bring them down.
Shaso_Keo wrote: I only take 1 and sometimes it does nothing. Other times it does everything. A great way to weaken a riptide is to focus fire the marker light support, commanders and pathfinders. Without markerlights the tau army as a whole gets weaker.
Reason i compare to thunderwolf cavalry is that TWC is devastating against Tau and there is very little we can do against it. 12" move and a refilling charge is very threatening to Tau. I would dare say there is little tau can do to stop the wolves.
Why don't you tarpit them with a riptide? It would take them all game to kill one.
Did you just seriously suggest to tarpit something wiht a higher priced unit as a valid stratagy?
Martel732 wrote: It's never just one. So the tri- or tetra- Riptide list decimates an enemy list and then the Tau loses *maybe* one to a gets hot roll. Sure seems worth it to me.
A few things. First off, we've already discussed the problems with your games. It's not the Riptide, it's the players and the tables. You can actively do something to fix your problem, but choose not to. We can't help you there.
The second is that you still want a solution that makes multiple Riptides bad and would ruin it for people that want to take one, and make sure nobody ever fields a HBC which will not fix the problem.
You keep harping on about how it can wipe out a lot of enemies. We get that. Everyone gets that. The IA is broken. Fine. Nobody has ever said otherwise in this thread that I am aware of.
Why does the HBC version have to suffer for that?
I didn't say make them bad. Make them fair. And remove gets hot from the HBC; there's no reason for it to have that rule. I'm fine with that. But 2+ T6 FNP W5 shouldn't exist in the game, and if we have to have it, make it cost more. This has nothing to do with LOS blocking terrain. The fact that when I shoot Riptides back, nothing happens, and when they shoot me I die is the problem I'm discussing. It's not like Riptides never get LOS on tables with LOS blocking terrain.
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Shaso_Keo wrote: I only take 1 and sometimes it does nothing. Other times it does everything. A great way to weaken a riptide is to focus fire the marker light support, commanders and pathfinders. Without markerlights the tau army as a whole gets weaker.
Reason i compare to thunderwolf cavalry is that TWC is devastating against Tau and there is very little we can do against it. 12" move and a refilling charge is very threatening to Tau. I would dare say there is little tau can do to stop the wolves.
What about that statement do you find so hard to believe? If it's regarding his suggestion of your target priority, NEWSFLASH: Riptides are NOT scary without marker light support. Tau rely on the synergy of their marker lights to be effective. Kill the marker lights early, and the tau still have scary guns but suddenly don't shoot them any better than guardsmen....
Chaos Companion wrote: What about that statement do you find so hard to believe? If it's regarding his suggestion of your target priority, NEWSFLASH: Riptides are NOT scary without marker light support. Tau rely on the synergy of their marker lights to be effective. Kill the marker lights early, and the tau still have scary guns but suddenly don't shoot them any better than guardsmen....
While True, better hope you have weapons that can shoot at least 36" that can ignore cover while simultaneously going first. otherwise target priority will go the other way as well.
I find it hard to believe that the Tau can't stop wolf cavalry. High yield missile pods (the other thing in addition to IA that every Tau list seems to have) spam them to death the same as they spam everything to death. Oh, here's 30 wounds, hold that for me chief. If this were to be true, my BA might as well just concede every game to Thunderwolf cavalry, because we have literally no chance if the Tau can't stop them. The BA, with their incredible ranks of non-firepower.
Martel732 wrote: I find it hard to believe that the Tau can't stop wolf cavalry. High yield missile pods (the other thing in addition to IA that every Tau list seems to have) spam them to death the same as they spam everything to death. Oh, here's 30 wounds, hold that for me chief. If this were to be true, my BA might as well just concede every game to Thunderwolf cavalry, because we have literally no chance if the Tau can't stop them. The BA, with their incredible ranks of non-firepower.
They only need to make 30 wounds?
If anything Tau can do that at range in at least 2 turns. (wait is this 30 wounds total or 30 wounds after a 3++?)
30 wounds before saves. I just pulled out what sounds like a big number. Maybe the Tau can cause even more wounds to them easily. 30 just sounded like a reasonable number for Tau, but out of reach for my marines.
Shaso_Keo wrote: I only take 1 and sometimes it does nothing. Other times it does everything. A great way to weaken a riptide is to focus fire the marker light support, commanders and pathfinders. Without markerlights the tau army as a whole gets weaker.
Reason i compare to thunderwolf cavalry is that TWC is devastating against Tau and there is very little we can do against it. 12" move and a refilling charge is very threatening to Tau. I would dare say there is little tau can do to stop the wolves.
Why don't you tarpit them with a riptide? It would take them all game to kill one.
Did you just seriously suggest to tarpit something wiht a higher priced unit as a valid stratagy?
You do what you got to do sometimes. Obviously you try to kill them with shooting first...if that fails...you lock them up with an indestructible MC. Unless ofc you want them to go ham over all your fire warriors. Also it's not necessarily a cheaper unit. If it's 4 TWC - it actually costs more...If it includes a warlord...it actually costs a lot more - though if it includes an instant death weapon I could see this being a big mistake sending in a riptide. My point is even with a squad putting out 20+ rending str 5 attacks this thing will live easily. This is a great time to cast that 3++ and take little to no damage from one of the strongest CC squads in the game.
Well the nice thing about Tau is they are S5 with their guns so they still wound on a 4+, the BS itself is modifiable so... they theoretically are the go to troops to handle TWC.
Martel732 wrote: At least the Tau have an indestructible MC to tarpit them with. Sounds like a good plan to me.
That sounds dumb as feth (or am i missing the sarcasm?)
The thing only needs to fail 1 nova charge for 3++ (or have had it on on the turn it was charged or charging) otherwise there is no way in feth it will survive the dumb amount of ST10 attacks and hammers and stuff.
Martel732 wrote: I find it hard to believe that the Tau can't stop wolf cavalry. High yield missile pods (the other thing in addition to IA that every Tau list seems to have) spam them to death the same as they spam everything to death. Oh, here's 30 wounds, hold that for me chief. If this were to be true, my BA might as well just concede every game to Thunderwolf cavalry, because we have literally no chance if the Tau can't stop them. The BA, with their incredible ranks of non-firepower.
Typical tau cries...complain about something when in fact the tau are best equipt to deal with with said complaint. Who else has spare 30 inch str 5 shots on their basic troops to obliterate thunder-wolves?
Martel732 wrote: I find it hard to believe that the Tau can't stop wolf cavalry. High yield missile pods (the other thing in addition to IA that every Tau list seems to have) spam them to death the same as they spam everything to death. Oh, here's 30 wounds, hold that for me chief. If this were to be true, my BA might as well just concede every game to Thunderwolf cavalry, because we have literally no chance if the Tau can't stop them. The BA, with their incredible ranks of non-firepower.
Typical tau cries...complain about something when in fact the tau are best equipt to deal with with said complaint. Who else has spare 30 inch str 5 shots on their basic troops to obliterate thunder-wolves?
You still need a Butt load of shots to go through 3+/3++. and these things are fast.
I dont has wolf book but what are there wound stats and can they get fnp normally? and typical unit size? i actually wana see how many shots
Martel732 wrote: At least the Tau have an indestructible MC to tarpit them with. Sounds like a good plan to me.
That sounds dumb as feth (or am i missing the sarcasm?)
The thing only needs to fail 1 nova charge for 3++ (or have had it on on the turn it was charged or charging) otherwise there is no way in feth it will survive the dumb amount of ST10 attacks and hammers and stuff.
It may only have to buy a turn or two to facilitate the victory, however. I'm sorry it's only indestructible 66% of the time, as opposed to the 0% of the time my BA are indestructible.
Martel732 wrote: At least the Tau have an indestructible MC to tarpit them with. Sounds like a good plan to me.
That sounds dumb as feth (or am i missing the sarcasm?)
The thing only needs to fail 1 nova charge for 3++ (or have had it on on the turn it was charged or charging) otherwise there is no way in feth it will survive the dumb amount of ST10 attacks and hammers and stuff.
Thunder wolves will kill every fire warrior in your army in 3 turns...or take 3-4 turns to kill a riptide. It's up to you. If wolves are about to enter your lines - you feed em a riptide...it is okay because...you have 2 more. Who knows - you might eve get lucky and kill a few with your riptide.
Martel732 wrote: I find it hard to believe that the Tau can't stop wolf cavalry. High yield missile pods (the other thing in addition to IA that every Tau list seems to have) spam them to death the same as they spam everything to death. Oh, here's 30 wounds, hold that for me chief. If this were to be true, my BA might as well just concede every game to Thunderwolf cavalry, because we have literally no chance if the Tau can't stop them. The BA, with their incredible ranks of non-firepower.
Typical tau cries...complain about something when in fact the tau are best equipt to deal with with said complaint. Who else has spare 30 inch str 5 shots on their basic troops to obliterate thunder-wolves?
You still need a Butt load of shots to go through 3+/3++. and these things are fast.
I dont has wolf book but what are there wound stats and can they get fnp normally? and typical unit size? i actually wana see how many shots
If they don't have 2+ base save, then spamming wounds will kill them in short order. Clearing 33% of all wounds will whittle a squad down very quickly.
Martel732 wrote: I find it hard to believe that the Tau can't stop wolf cavalry. High yield missile pods (the other thing in addition to IA that every Tau list seems to have) spam them to death the same as they spam everything to death. Oh, here's 30 wounds, hold that for me chief. If this were to be true, my BA might as well just concede every game to Thunderwolf cavalry, because we have literally no chance if the Tau can't stop them. The BA, with their incredible ranks of non-firepower.
Typical tau cries...complain about something when in fact the tau are best equipt to deal with with said complaint. Who else has spare 30 inch str 5 shots on their basic troops to obliterate thunder-wolves?
You still need a Butt load of shots to go through 3+/3++. and these things are fast.
I dont has wolf book but what are there wound stats and can they get fnp normally? and typical unit size? i actually wana see how many shots
Nah no FNP. They are just t5 2w 3++ marines with 4 rending attacks...yeah - they are incredibly awesome. It will take them 5-6 rounds of combat to kill a ripetide and along the way the rip could possibly snag a few himself. My experience with SW though...they can't win without their thunder-wolves - they are just regular marines without chapter tactics without those things.
Usuaully they run in groups of 4. 1 will have a powerfist and 3 have rending attacks. 4 attacks each at str 5 and str 9 power fist on the boss. They also have counter attack so they will have 20 attacks turn 1 with 3+ to hit. With 3++ up though rip only takes 22% of wounds from a powerfist and rends 11% of wounds from none rends. The riptide will not win this combat but it potentially can cause a few wounds. Like I was saying the only reason you would do this is to tie the wolves up so you can win. Tau got nothing else that can do this...they shouldn't have a unit that can do this...but they do.
Are TWC really that scary for Tau? Isn't that a perfect example of where Supporting Fire is downright brutal? They probably suck to face, but my Tau are my one army that I think can handle them...
So 12 wounds with a 3++ basically? martel got it near right at 30 wounds
Yeah Tau should be able to put that many wounds on 1 turn of shooting with everything. EVERYTHING!
I've had Tau do considerably more wounds to me than that in a single turn. It shouldn't take an entire list. Hell, I had Eldar do 71 once. Sounds like these TWF are just another squad asking to be casualties of Xeno firepower.
Martel732 wrote: I find it hard to believe that the Tau can't stop wolf cavalry. High yield missile pods (the other thing in addition to IA that every Tau list seems to have) spam them to death the same as they spam everything to death. Oh, here's 30 wounds, hold that for me chief. If this were to be true, my BA might as well just concede every game to Thunderwolf cavalry, because we have literally no chance if the Tau can't stop them. The BA, with their incredible ranks of non-firepower.
Typical tau cries...complain about something when in fact the tau are best equipt to deal with with said complaint. Who else has spare 30 inch str 5 shots on their basic troops to obliterate thunder-wolves?
You still need a Butt load of shots to go through 3+/3++. and these things are fast.
I dont has wolf book but what are there wound stats and can they get fnp normally? and typical unit size? i actually wana see how many shots
Nah no FNP. They are just t5 2w 3++ marines with 4 rending attacks...yeah - they are incredibly awesome. It will take them 5-6 rounds of combat to kill a ripetide and along the way the rip could possibly snag a few himself. My experience with SW though...they can't win without their thunder-wolves - they are just regular marines without chapter tactics without those things.
Usuaully they run in groups of 4. 1 will have a powerfist and 3 have rending attacks. 4 attacks each at str 5 and str 9 power fist on the boss. They also have counter attack so they will have 20 attacks turn 1 with 3+ to hit.
They have a chapter tactic: a really good one, except that all the best lists seem to shoot exclusively. Their tactics sure rains on my parade.
So 12 wounds with a 3++ basically? martel got it near right at 30 wounds
Yeah Tau should be able to put that many wounds on 1 turn of shooting with everything. EVERYTHING!
I've had Tau do considerably more wounds to me than that in a single turn. It shouldn't take an entire list. Hell, I had Eldar do 71 once. Sounds like these TWF are just another squad asking to be casualties of Xeno firepower.
Martel732 wrote: I find it hard to believe that the Tau can't stop wolf cavalry. High yield missile pods (the other thing in addition to IA that every Tau list seems to have) spam them to death the same as they spam everything to death. Oh, here's 30 wounds, hold that for me chief. If this were to be true, my BA might as well just concede every game to Thunderwolf cavalry, because we have literally no chance if the Tau can't stop them. The BA, with their incredible ranks of non-firepower.
Typical tau cries...complain about something when in fact the tau are best equipt to deal with with said complaint. Who else has spare 30 inch str 5 shots on their basic troops to obliterate thunder-wolves?
You still need a Butt load of shots to go through 3+/3++. and these things are fast.
I dont has wolf book but what are there wound stats and can they get fnp normally? and typical unit size? i actually wana see how many shots
Nah no FNP. They are just t5 2w 3++ marines with 4 rending attacks...yeah - they are incredibly awesome. It will take them 5-6 rounds of combat to kill a ripetide and along the way the rip could possibly snag a few himself. My experience with SW though...they can't win without their thunder-wolves - they are just regular marines without chapter tactics without those things.
Usuaully they run in groups of 4. 1 will have a powerfist and 3 have rending attacks. 4 attacks each at str 5 and str 9 power fist on the boss. They also have counter attack so they will have 20 attacks turn 1 with 3+ to hit.
They have a chapter tactic: a really good one, except that all the best lists seem to shoot exclusively. Their tactics sure rains on my parade.
Martel732 wrote: I find it hard to believe that the Tau can't stop wolf cavalry. High yield missile pods (the other thing in addition to IA that every Tau list seems to have) spam them to death the same as they spam everything to death. Oh, here's 30 wounds, hold that for me chief. If this were to be true, my BA might as well just concede every game to Thunderwolf cavalry, because we have literally no chance if the Tau can't stop them. The BA, with their incredible ranks of non-firepower.
Typical tau cries...complain about something when in fact the tau are best equipt to deal with with said complaint. Who else has spare 30 inch str 5 shots on their basic troops to obliterate thunder-wolves?
You still need a Butt load of shots to go through 3+/3++. and these things are fast.
I dont has wolf book but what are there wound stats and can they get fnp normally? and typical unit size? i actually wana see how many shots
T5 and 2 wounds. They can't get FnP normally, most good players run an IC with a 2+ save in front to tank shots since small arms is their weakness.
Assuming a normal guy is being fired upon a single shot from a tau fire warrior has a
50% hit, 50% wound, 33% failed save, so a 8.25% wound chance.
Every 12 shots causes a wound, roughly. Marker lights improve this. The IC in front doubles this number. Marker lights decrease it obviously.
1 marker light is 9.2 shots required per wound.
2 marker lights is 7.3 shots required per wound.
They are tough, but considering their expense, can be brought down by a lot of troops. IDing them is obviously the better choice.
Martel732 wrote: I find it hard to believe that the Tau can't stop wolf cavalry. High yield missile pods (the other thing in addition to IA that every Tau list seems to have) spam them to death the same as they spam everything to death. Oh, here's 30 wounds, hold that for me chief. If this were to be true, my BA might as well just concede every game to Thunderwolf cavalry, because we have literally no chance if the Tau can't stop them. The BA, with their incredible ranks of non-firepower.
Typical tau cries...complain about something when in fact the tau are best equipt to deal with with said complaint. Who else has spare 30 inch str 5 shots on their basic troops to obliterate thunder-wolves?
You still need a Butt load of shots to go through 3+/3++. and these things are fast.
I dont has wolf book but what are there wound stats and can they get fnp normally? and typical unit size? i actually wana see how many shots
T5 and 2 wounds. They can't get FnP normally, most good players run an IC with a 2+ save in front to tank shots since small arms is their weakness.
Assuming a normal guy is being fired upon a single shot from a tau fire warrior has a
50% hit, 50% wound, 33% failed save, so a 8.25% wound chance.
Every 12 shots causes a wound, roughly. Marker lights improve this. The IC in front doubles this number. Marker lights decrease it obviously.
1 marker light is 9.2 shots required per wound.
2 marker lights is 7.3 shots required per wound.
They are tough, but considering their expense, can be brought down by a lot of troops. IDing them is obviously the better choice.
You could use a volley from some plasma suits or an IA shot to try to frag the front guy and then just butcher them with dakka. I suspect that the SW propensity for drop lists is probably a bigger problem for the Tau overall.
Martel732 wrote: Yes, it's counterattack. In all of their choppy glory. Basically, SW are immune to assault. They claim they aren't but that's what it boils down to.
Martel732 wrote: I find it hard to believe that the Tau can't stop wolf cavalry. High yield missile pods (the other thing in addition to IA that every Tau list seems to have) spam them to death the same as they spam everything to death. Oh, here's 30 wounds, hold that for me chief. If this were to be true, my BA might as well just concede every game to Thunderwolf cavalry, because we have literally no chance if the Tau can't stop them. The BA, with their incredible ranks of non-firepower.
Typical tau cries...complain about something when in fact the tau are best equipt to deal with with said complaint. Who else has spare 30 inch str 5 shots on their basic troops to obliterate thunder-wolves?
You still need a Butt load of shots to go through 3+/3++. and these things are fast.
I dont has wolf book but what are there wound stats and can they get fnp normally? and typical unit size? i actually wana see how many shots
T5 and 2 wounds. They can't get FnP normally, most good players run an IC with a 2+ save in front to tank shots since small arms is their weakness.
Assuming a normal guy is being fired upon a single shot from a tau fire warrior has a
50% hit, 50% wound, 33% failed save, so a 8.25% wound chance.
Every 12 shots causes a wound, roughly. Marker lights improve this. The IC in front doubles this number. Marker lights decrease it obviously.
1 marker light is 9.2 shots required per wound.
2 marker lights is 7.3 shots required per wound.
They are tough, but considering their expense, can be brought down by a lot of troops. IDing them is obviously the better choice.
You could use a volley from some plasma suits or an IA shot to try to frag the front guy and then just butcher them.
Also 4 attacks base from a thunderwolf is only a little bit OP...I mean...a dread knight has 3. Thunderwolves are obviously a little under costed too but as the norm goes...thats kind of okay because everything else sucks.
Martel732 wrote: Yes, it's counterattack. In all of their choppy glory. Basically, SW are immune to assault. They claim they aren't but that's what it boils down to.
Martel732 wrote: I find it hard to believe that the Tau can't stop wolf cavalry. High yield missile pods (the other thing in addition to IA that every Tau list seems to have) spam them to death the same as they spam everything to death. Oh, here's 30 wounds, hold that for me chief. If this were to be true, my BA might as well just concede every game to Thunderwolf cavalry, because we have literally no chance if the Tau can't stop them. The BA, with their incredible ranks of non-firepower.
Typical tau cries...complain about something when in fact the tau are best equipt to deal with with said complaint. Who else has spare 30 inch str 5 shots on their basic troops to obliterate thunder-wolves?
You still need a Butt load of shots to go through 3+/3++. and these things are fast.
I dont has wolf book but what are there wound stats and can they get fnp normally? and typical unit size? i actually wana see how many shots
T5 and 2 wounds. They can't get FnP normally, most good players run an IC with a 2+ save in front to tank shots since small arms is their weakness.
Assuming a normal guy is being fired upon a single shot from a tau fire warrior has a
50% hit, 50% wound, 33% failed save, so a 8.25% wound chance.
Every 12 shots causes a wound, roughly. Marker lights improve this. The IC in front doubles this number. Marker lights decrease it obviously.
1 marker light is 9.2 shots required per wound.
2 marker lights is 7.3 shots required per wound.
They are tough, but considering their expense, can be brought down by a lot of troops. IDing them is obviously the better choice.
You could use a volley from some plasma suits or an IA shot to try to frag the front guy and then just butcher them with dakka. I suspect that the SW propensity for drop lists is probably a bigger problem for the Tau overall.
You look out sir them onto the regular wolves, since everyone has a 3++.
Good SW list that doesn't ally spam seems to be a few pods with anti-infantry options with 1-2 pods being anti-tank, with 1-2 units of TWC to smash on turn 2. The whole list minus 2 pods is in your face by turn 1, and will be in CC by turn 2 unless you are absurdly fast (waveserpents mainly).
Martel732 wrote: How fast is this TWC? Don't they get just a 12" move?
They are still beasts unless everyone plays them wrong. They can move quickly, and charge reliably.
Slightly less so in 7th but they are a lot tougher now
Martel732 wrote: How fast is this TWC? Don't they get just a 12" move?
Yep.
Move 12, Run T1
Move 12, Charge T2
It never seems this easy for my jump infantry. I guess because they're usually dead. SW are now better at jump infantry than BA, lol.
Well, they aren't jump infantry. They are more mini MC's if they are anything.
Forgot to mention fleet, which makes the run move and charge pretty good.
It's one reason that people playing World eaters using the SW codex. They do the juggy marines very well
I always feel conflicted on jump infantry, I love my GK Interceptors 30 inch shunt, then hammer of wrath charge turn after that. Some of the best jump infantry right there in the game if you ask me.
But I swear it just sometimes doesn't feel worth it because the smart opponent will just charge them before they get to.
Quickjager wrote: I always feel conflicted on jump infantry, I love my GK Interceptors 30 inch shunt, then hammer of wrath charge turn after that. Some of the best jump infantry right there in the game if you ask me.
But I swear it just sometimes doesn't feel worth it because the smart opponent will just charge them before they get to.
Preventing this from happening is one of the difficult tasks with BA. It's also why I haven't lost an army swap match since 5th ed. I know BA far too well.
Quickjager wrote: I always feel conflicted on jump infantry, I love my GK Interceptors 30 inch shunt, then hammer of wrath charge turn after that. Some of the best jump infantry right there in the game if you ask me.
But I swear it just sometimes doesn't feel worth it because the smart opponent will just charge them before they get to.
It's why I like SW. They are the only marine force that does CC well, because they have large charge ranges or still can do CC if they get charged very well. Most marine armies, lacking usable assault vectors, just get charged so its not so devastating (losing half or a third of your attacks is devastating, its the different between striking T4 to T6 I believe with Str 5 weapons, to give Tau an idea) even if the enemy unit can't win.
But this is wildly off topic.
I stand by my last post.
Tau are too easy to play with too many tools in the box. Some changes should be made. I haven't played mine in a long time due to this.
Nerf Tau? ok change how markerlights work. I don't believe any Tau unit is that unreasonable without markerlight support. I have played against a few triple or quad riptide armies, and once the markerlights are gone... they're really ineffective.
Make it so that you need 3 or 4 markerlights to completely ignore cover. I know it has been this way forever, but really, this is where Tau get incredible.
Another tip against gunlines is to play more mobile missions. The missions you play greatly affect how you play your army. BAO or ETC style use maelstrom heavily, and a gunline force will never be able to collect objectives, but the more traditional Eternal War missions promote static gunline play.
In my local area (Northeastern US), I see a lot of combinations missions, like BAO and ETC, or even the Asymmetrical missions NOVA used... these all promote mobile armies and tend to hinder the more gunline style.
This, like many small factors (like LOS blocking terrain), do a lot to level the playing field for a more competitive game. This is true for all armies. Assault armies can get in against a foe who has to engage the battlefield on some level, and also it creates a more skilled Eldar/Tau player who actually has to rely on firing lanes and such. SMS and Seeker missiles are good but they won't touch a Land Raider, or they'll struggle against Annihilation Barges and such. It creates more situations to use tactics and strategy, which makes a fun game.
I have played against Tau quite a few times at local tournaments and some major GTs in this area, and they all feature some type of advanced mission set, as well as dense LOS blocking terrain... and no one seems to worry about Tau. They're always in the running, but no one is complaining about them.
It sort of does. Crisis suits are supposed to be more of a sentinel/dread scale model. Even the new Broadside kind of shows that they were trying to design these things to be larger.
The only problem was balance issues, basically having the entirety of the elite, HQ, and HS slots being filled with units that would be immune to most small arms and be fairly mobile, but far more susceptible to actual damage results.
It sort of does. Crisis suits are supposed to be more of a sentinel/dread scale model. Even the new Broadside kind of shows that they were trying to design these things to be larger.
The only problem was balance issues, basically having the entirety of the elite, HQ, and HS slots being filled with units that would be immune to most small arms and be fairly mobile, but far more susceptible to actual damage results.
They would have to adjust the lore then. All battlesuits are described as being "worn" at the current moment.
It sort of does. Crisis suits are supposed to be more of a sentinel/dread scale model. Even the new Broadside kind of shows that they were trying to design these things to be larger.
The only problem was balance issues, basically having the entirety of the elite, HQ, and HS slots being filled with units that would be immune to most small arms and be fairly mobile, but far more susceptible to actual damage results.
They would have to adjust the lore then. All battlesuits are described as being "worn" at the current moment.
It sort of does. Crisis suits are supposed to be more of a sentinel/dread scale model. Even the new Broadside kind of shows that they were trying to design these things to be larger.
The only problem was balance issues, basically having the entirety of the elite, HQ, and HS slots being filled with units that would be immune to most small arms and be fairly mobile, but far more susceptible to actual damage results.
They would have to adjust the lore then. All battlesuits are described as being "worn" at the current moment.
In the same way a driver wears a car?
I don't know, can you ? This is 40k so I won't rule out anything being outright impossible.
Desubot wrote: Well Technically a Dreadnought is being worn by basically what is a vegetable and is being controlled by its brain directly.
I really do think the difference just comes down to how clunky the machine is.
basically how nimble they actually are and if they could technically get back up unassisted if they fall down.
At least thats the metric i am seeing between walkers and MC
That is a good point.
But on another note, can the smaller infantry battlesuits fire more than two weapons a turn or can they fire all of them ? I notice one variant has 3 weapons so.
Martel732 wrote: It's never just one. So the tri- or tetra- Riptide list decimates an enemy list and then the Tau loses *maybe* one to a gets hot roll. Sure seems worth it to me.
You're just so wrong it's not funny. I was at a semi-local game store this weekend and my first opponent had 4 Riptides in his list. Ignoring the fact his list was illegal (too many ECPA's), I tabled him easily in 6 turns. His list was:
Spoiler:
Farsight
O'Vesa (IC Riptide)
Commander with VT, TL, 2xMP
Riptide with HBC, VT, FNP, ECPA
Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP
3-man XV8's with 2xMP, TL 6-man FW team
4-man Pathfinder team.
Allied Tau:
Buffcommander
6-man FW team.
4-man Pathfinder team.
And my list was:
Spoiler:
Kahn on a bike
Chapter Master with artificer, shield eternal, thunder hammer, bike
Command squad with bikes, 4x grav guns, apothecary
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
4-man Bike FA Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, meltabomb
Knight Errant
Knight Paladin
The mission was Hammer and anvil, Relic. That gave those Riptides plenty of range to just remove my models, so I instead outplayed him. He had first turn and deployed in the middle of his deployment zone putting the missile commander, buff-commander, farsight, and o'vesa into the crisis suit team. I put down both knights on the line roughly in the middle of my zone and outflanked all my bikes. I had 3 squads come in turn 2 (had lost a knight already) and only the small melta squad got to choose their side. Despite the infamous S8 AP2 Large Blast intercepting, at the end of turn 5 he had 1 riptide with a couple wounds on him, and I had about half of my bikes. The riptide is beatable. If you can't beat it, look at yourself and ask what you are doing wrong.
Martel732 wrote: It's never just one. So the tri- or tetra- Riptide list decimates an enemy list and then the Tau loses *maybe* one to a gets hot roll. Sure seems worth it to me.
You're just so wrong it's not funny. I was at a semi-local game store this weekend and my first opponent had 4 Riptides in his list. Ignoring the fact his list was illegal (too many ECPA's), I tabled him easily in 6 turns. His list was:
Spoiler:
Farsight
O'Vesa (IC Riptide)
Commander with VT, TL, 2xMP
Riptide with HBC, VT, FNP, ECPA
Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP
3-man XV8's with 2xMP, TL 6-man FW team
4-man Pathfinder team.
Allied Tau:
Buffcommander
6-man FW team.
4-man Pathfinder team.
And my list was:
Spoiler:
Kahn on a bike
Chapter Master with artificer, shield eternal, thunder hammer, bike
Command squad with bikes, 4x grav guns, apothecary
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
4-man Bike FA Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, meltabomb
Knight Errant
Knight Paladin
The mission was Hammer and anvil, Relic. That gave those Riptides plenty of range to just remove my models, so I instead outplayed him. He had first turn and deployed in the middle of his deployment zone putting the missile commander, buff-commander, farsight, and o'vesa into the crisis suit team. I put down both knights on the line roughly in the middle of my zone and outflanked all my bikes. I had 3 squads come in turn 2 (had lost a knight already) and only the small melta squad got to choose their side. Despite the infamous S8 AP2 Large Blast intercepting, at the end of turn 5 he had 1 riptide with a couple wounds on him, and I had about half of my bikes. The riptide is beatable. If you can't beat it, look at yourself and ask what you are doing wrong.
Martel732 wrote: It's never just one. So the tri- or tetra- Riptide list decimates an enemy list and then the Tau loses *maybe* one to a gets hot roll. Sure seems worth it to me.
You're just so wrong it's not funny. I was at a semi-local game store this weekend and my first opponent had 4 Riptides in his list. Ignoring the fact his list was illegal (too many ECPA's), I tabled him easily in 6 turns. His list was:
Spoiler:
Farsight
O'Vesa (IC Riptide)
Commander with VT, TL, 2xMP
Riptide with HBC, VT, FNP, ECPA
Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP
3-man XV8's with 2xMP, TL 6-man FW team
4-man Pathfinder team.
Allied Tau:
Buffcommander
6-man FW team.
4-man Pathfinder team.
And my list was:
Spoiler:
Kahn on a bike
Chapter Master with artificer, shield eternal, thunder hammer, bike
Command squad with bikes, 4x grav guns, apothecary
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
4-man Bike FA Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, meltabomb
Knight Errant
Knight Paladin
The mission was Hammer and anvil, Relic. That gave those Riptides plenty of range to just remove my models, so I instead outplayed him. He had first turn and deployed in the middle of his deployment zone putting the missile commander, buff-commander, farsight, and o'vesa into the crisis suit team. I put down both knights on the line roughly in the middle of my zone and outflanked all my bikes. I had 3 squads come in turn 2 (had lost a knight already) and only the small melta squad got to choose their side. Despite the infamous S8 AP2 Large Blast intercepting, at the end of turn 5 he had 1 riptide with a couple wounds on him, and I had about half of my bikes. The riptide is beatable. If you can't beat it, look at yourself and ask what you are doing wrong.
...dude that list is built to kill MC and Knights...
Martel732 wrote: It's never just one. So the tri- or tetra- Riptide list decimates an enemy list and then the Tau loses *maybe* one to a gets hot roll. Sure seems worth it to me.
You're just so wrong it's not funny. I was at a semi-local game store this weekend and my first opponent had 4 Riptides in his list. Ignoring the fact his list was illegal (too many ECPA's), I tabled him easily in 6 turns. His list was:
Spoiler:
Farsight
O'Vesa (IC Riptide)
Commander with VT, TL, 2xMP
Riptide with HBC, VT, FNP, ECPA
Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP
3-man XV8's with 2xMP, TL 6-man FW team
4-man Pathfinder team.
Allied Tau:
Buffcommander
6-man FW team.
4-man Pathfinder team.
And my list was:
Spoiler:
Kahn on a bike
Chapter Master with artificer, shield eternal, thunder hammer, bike
Command squad with bikes, 4x grav guns, apothecary
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
4-man Bike FA Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, meltabomb
Knight Errant
Knight Paladin
The mission was Hammer and anvil, Relic. That gave those Riptides plenty of range to just remove my models, so I instead outplayed him. He had first turn and deployed in the middle of his deployment zone putting the missile commander, buff-commander, farsight, and o'vesa into the crisis suit team. I put down both knights on the line roughly in the middle of my zone and outflanked all my bikes. I had 3 squads come in turn 2 (had lost a knight already) and only the small melta squad got to choose their side. Despite the infamous S8 AP2 Large Blast intercepting, at the end of turn 5 he had 1 riptide with a couple wounds on him, and I had about half of my bikes. The riptide is beatable. If you can't beat it, look at yourself and ask what you are doing wrong.
So run Knights and all bikes? Pretty sure that list could do well against a lot of armies.
Martel732 wrote: It's never just one. So the tri- or tetra- Riptide list decimates an enemy list and then the Tau loses *maybe* one to a gets hot roll. Sure seems worth it to me.
You're just so wrong it's not funny. I was at a semi-local game store this weekend and my first opponent had 4 Riptides in his list. Ignoring the fact his list was illegal (too many ECPA's), I tabled him easily in 6 turns. His list was:
Spoiler:
Farsight
O'Vesa (IC Riptide)
Commander with VT, TL, 2xMP
Riptide with HBC, VT, FNP, ECPA
Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP
3-man XV8's with 2xMP, TL 6-man FW team
4-man Pathfinder team.
Allied Tau:
Buffcommander
6-man FW team.
4-man Pathfinder team.
And my list was:
Spoiler:
Kahn on a bike
Chapter Master with artificer, shield eternal, thunder hammer, bike
Command squad with bikes, 4x grav guns, apothecary
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
4-man Bike FA Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, meltabomb
Knight Errant
Knight Paladin
The mission was Hammer and anvil, Relic. That gave those Riptides plenty of range to just remove my models, so I instead outplayed him. He had first turn and deployed in the middle of his deployment zone putting the missile commander, buff-commander, farsight, and o'vesa into the crisis suit team. I put down both knights on the line roughly in the middle of my zone and outflanked all my bikes. I had 3 squads come in turn 2 (had lost a knight already) and only the small melta squad got to choose their side. Despite the infamous S8 AP2 Large Blast intercepting, at the end of turn 5 he had 1 riptide with a couple wounds on him, and I had about half of my bikes. The riptide is beatable. If you can't beat it, look at yourself and ask what you are doing wrong.
...dude that list is built to kill MC and Knights...
You bring 2 titans...lol he had no method to deal with them. No fussion. No AP 1 at all. Let me guess you had all your troops dead and 2 knights ran down all 4 remaining riptides and rolled 6's to wound. Or you got lucky and your bikes never showed up...usually this would be bad for knights but since your opponent had no antitank he got wrecked.
Martel732 wrote: It's never just one. So the tri- or tetra- Riptide list decimates an enemy list and then the Tau loses *maybe* one to a gets hot roll. Sure seems worth it to me.
You're just so wrong it's not funny. I was at a semi-local game store this weekend and my first opponent had 4 Riptides in his list. Ignoring the fact his list was illegal (too many ECPA's), I tabled him easily in 6 turns. His list was:
Spoiler:
Farsight
O'Vesa (IC Riptide)
Commander with VT, TL, 2xMP
Riptide with HBC, VT, FNP, ECPA
Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP
3-man XV8's with 2xMP, TL 6-man FW team
4-man Pathfinder team.
Allied Tau:
Buffcommander
6-man FW team.
4-man Pathfinder team.
And my list was:
Spoiler:
Kahn on a bike
Chapter Master with artificer, shield eternal, thunder hammer, bike
Command squad with bikes, 4x grav guns, apothecary
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
4-man Bike FA Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, meltabomb
Knight Errant
Knight Paladin
The mission was Hammer and anvil, Relic. That gave those Riptides plenty of range to just remove my models, so I instead outplayed him. He had first turn and deployed in the middle of his deployment zone putting the missile commander, buff-commander, farsight, and o'vesa into the crisis suit team. I put down both knights on the line roughly in the middle of my zone and outflanked all my bikes. I had 3 squads come in turn 2 (had lost a knight already) and only the small melta squad got to choose their side. Despite the infamous S8 AP2 Large Blast intercepting, at the end of turn 5 he had 1 riptide with a couple wounds on him, and I had about half of my bikes. The riptide is beatable. If you can't beat it, look at yourself and ask what you are doing wrong.
Use less knights, then adopt that attitude
Like it or not, knights ARE in the game and they're a free (in the sense they require no other unit 'tax' to be taken and are Battle Brothers) choice fir all IoM armies.
Maybe most IoM players should take more knights to fifht Riptudes if it works so well?
The fact that there is a codex for super-heavy units says there is a lot more eligible in the game for the "nerf-bat" than just the tau if there is any nerfing to be done.
The Imperial Knights themselves are actually quite balanced.
The problem is that several of them are too many for a TAC list to destroy.
IKs are stronger with allies, and that's only because allies cover their weaknesses (better ranged-based AT, AA) and can buff them.
IA Riptides are not balanced, however, and should pay extra for the IA.
The reason that the Tau list lost so bad to that list is that they had no reliable AT vs AV 13 and were up against bikemarines designed to slaughter AV/MCs
I have to laugh at this, so the Imperial Knight is crappy when compared to a Riptide but then when two of them are used in a game they are suddenly to strong?! Like really? One thing about Fusion to mention as well, it is only an 18inch range meaning it would have to get within 9 inches for the melta rule. That means your "underpowered" or "overpowered Knight" (in regards to the sudden change of opinion listed above apparently) has a VERY good chance of assaulting said Riptide in combat and beating it down.
Martel732 wrote: It's never just one. So the tri- or tetra- Riptide list decimates an enemy list and then the Tau loses *maybe* one to a gets hot roll. Sure seems worth it to me.
You're just so wrong it's not funny. I was at a semi-local game store this weekend and my first opponent had 4 Riptides in his list. Ignoring the fact his list was illegal (too many ECPA's), I tabled him easily in 6 turns. His list was:
Spoiler:
Farsight
O'Vesa (IC Riptide)
Commander with VT, TL, 2xMP
Riptide with HBC, VT, FNP, ECPA
Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP
3-man XV8's with 2xMP, TL 6-man FW team
4-man Pathfinder team.
Allied Tau:
Buffcommander
6-man FW team.
4-man Pathfinder team.
And my list was:
Spoiler:
Kahn on a bike
Chapter Master with artificer, shield eternal, thunder hammer, bike
Command squad with bikes, 4x grav guns, apothecary
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
4-man Bike FA Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, meltabomb
Knight Errant
Knight Paladin
The mission was Hammer and anvil, Relic. That gave those Riptides plenty of range to just remove my models, so I instead outplayed him. He had first turn and deployed in the middle of his deployment zone putting the missile commander, buff-commander, farsight, and o'vesa into the crisis suit team. I put down both knights on the line roughly in the middle of my zone and outflanked all my bikes. I had 3 squads come in turn 2 (had lost a knight already) and only the small melta squad got to choose their side. Despite the infamous S8 AP2 Large Blast intercepting, at the end of turn 5 he had 1 riptide with a couple wounds on him, and I had about half of my bikes. The riptide is beatable. If you can't beat it, look at yourself and ask what you are doing wrong.
...dude that list is built to kill MC and Knights...
You bring 2 titans...lol he had no method to deal with them. No fussion. No AP 1 at all. Let me guess you had all your troops dead and 2 knights ran down all 4 remaining riptides and rolled 6's to wound. Or you got lucky and your bikes never showed up...usually this would be bad for knights but since your opponent had no antitank he got wrecked.
Just realized I was unclear, the SM players list was designed to kill the aforementioned.
gmaleron wrote: I have to laugh at this, so the Imperial Knight is crappy when compared to a Riptide but then when two of them are used in a game they are suddenly to strong?! Like really? One thing about Fusion to mention as well, it is only an 18inch range meaning it would have to get within 9 inches for the melta rule. That means your "underpowered" or "overpowered Knight" (in regards to the sudden change of opinion listed above apparently) has a VERY good chance of assaulting said Riptide in combat and beating it down.
Did I say IKs were gak? No, I said they were balanced (not "underpowered", jeez I never said that once) for the cost.
Multiples aren't OP, just very rock-paper-scissory. Most TAC lists can't deal with multiple AV 13 hull points easily. 2 shouldn't that much of a deal against a list with actual AT, which that Tau list lacked.
If you take a list entirely of IKs you will lose against armies with high amounts of flyers or AT, but almost instantly win against an army with low/no AT or even a moderate amount of AT. If you add allies in, those weaknesses are covered (like in the aforementioned list) making a stronger list. Those lists can be OP as you have few weaknesses, but even then they are typically just strong.
Did I say IKs will fold against Riptides? No. I just said IA riptides don't cost enough. IKs will still lay the hurt on them, but they should as they cost more. However, the IA riptide (note I'm only talking about IA riptides, non-IA are fine like IKs) is a bit under priced for what it does, or rather, can do.
If the Tau list had actual AT then it would have been a lot closer.
gmaleron wrote: I have to laugh at this, so the Imperial Knight is crappy when compared to a Riptide but then when two of them are used in a game they are suddenly to strong?! Like really? One thing about Fusion to mention as well, it is only an 18inch range meaning it would have to get within 9 inches for the melta rule. That means your "underpowered" or "overpowered Knight" (in regards to the sudden change of opinion listed above apparently) has a VERY good chance of assaulting said Riptide in combat and beating it down.
Did I say IKs were gak? No, I said they were balanced (not "underpowered", jeez I never said that once) for the cost.
Multiples aren't OP, just very rock-paper-scissory. Most TAC lists can't deal with multiple AV 13 hull points easily. 2 shouldn't that much of a deal against a list with actual AT, which that Tau list lacked.
If you take a list entirely of IKs you will lose against armies with high amounts of flyers or AT, but almost instantly win against an army with low/no AT or even a moderate amount of AT. If you add allies in, those weaknesses are covered (like in the aforementioned list) making a stronger list. Those lists can be OP as you have few weaknesses, but even then they are typically just strong.
Did I say IKs will fold against Riptides? No. I just said IA riptides don't cost enough. IKs will still lay the hurt on them, but they should as they cost more. However, the IA riptide (note I'm only talking about IA riptides, non-IA are fine like IKs) is a bit under priced for what it does, or rather, can do.
If the Tau list had actual AT then it would have been a lot closer.
Was not specifically targeting you man, just relating to earlier in this thread where Riptides were being compared to Imperial Knights and in some cases, even stated that the Riptide was stronger. If I came off as targeting you specifically that's my bad, but not the case!
honestly i think riptides are very lowly ranked in my concerns of the current meta. Especially, after buffmander + riptide combination or BB giving prescience/guide got nerfed.
lol. at most change marker light to lower cover by 2, or not let EWO be on MC.
Really surprised that there are still people having such trouble with them. I find that IoM armies deal with them quite well.
You can't deal with a competitive meta, if you can't handle Riptides. If you can't, then maybe need t find a casual-er opponent. There are bigger problems.
gmaleron wrote: I have to laugh at this, so the Imperial Knight is crappy when compared to a Riptide but then when two of them are used in a game they are suddenly to strong?! Like really? One thing about Fusion to mention as well, it is only an 18inch range meaning it would have to get within 9 inches for the melta rule. That means your "underpowered" or "overpowered Knight" (in regards to the sudden change of opinion listed above apparently) has a VERY good chance of assaulting said Riptide in combat and beating it down.
Did I say IKs were gak? No, I said they were balanced (not "underpowered", jeez I never said that once) for the cost.
Multiples aren't OP, just very rock-paper-scissory. Most TAC lists can't deal with multiple AV 13 hull points easily. 2 shouldn't that much of a deal against a list with actual AT, which that Tau list lacked.
If you take a list entirely of IKs you will lose against armies with high amounts of flyers or AT, but almost instantly win against an army with low/no AT or even a moderate amount of AT. If you add allies in, those weaknesses are covered (like in the aforementioned list) making a stronger list. Those lists can be OP as you have few weaknesses, but even then they are typically just strong.
Did I say IKs will fold against Riptides? No. I just said IA riptides don't cost enough. IKs will still lay the hurt on them, but they should as they cost more. However, the IA riptide (note I'm only talking about IA riptides, non-IA are fine like IKs) is a bit under priced for what it does, or rather, can do.
If the Tau list had actual AT then it would have been a lot closer.
Was not specifically targeting you man, just relating to earlier in this thread where Riptides were being compared to Imperial Knights and in some cases, even stated that the Riptide was stronger. If I came off as targeting you specifically that's my bad, but not the case!
That's ok. I apoligise, too. I probably overreacted a bit and was a bit harsh myself, even if you had been targeting my post specifically.
Funnily enough, the army I put together only beat Tau that day. I lost to Eldar wave serpents/fire prisms(shocker ) and space wolves. The quad-riptide guy had fusion on all the riptides, and I ended up losing both knights in the two games against the Tau. I just forced them to play the way I wanted them to play, not let them shoot me off the board. That and targeting all the pathfinders t1 with the knights when I got to shoot helped secure the game for me.
That said, I still think the IA needs to go to the hammerhead and the ion cannon should be what the riptide uses.
Martel732 wrote: It's never just one. So the tri- or tetra- Riptide list decimates an enemy list and then the Tau loses *maybe* one to a gets hot roll. Sure seems worth it to me.
You're just so wrong it's not funny. I was at a semi-local game store this weekend and my first opponent had 4 Riptides in his list. Ignoring the fact his list was illegal (too many ECPA's), I tabled him easily in 6 turns. His list was:
Spoiler:
Farsight
O'Vesa (IC Riptide)
Commander with VT, TL, 2xMP
Riptide with HBC, VT, FNP, ECPA
Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP
3-man XV8's with 2xMP, TL 6-man FW team
4-man Pathfinder team.
Allied Tau:
Buffcommander
6-man FW team.
4-man Pathfinder team.
And my list was:
Spoiler:
Kahn on a bike
Chapter Master with artificer, shield eternal, thunder hammer, bike
Command squad with bikes, 4x grav guns, apothecary
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
4-man Bike FA Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, meltabomb
Knight Errant
Knight Paladin
The mission was Hammer and anvil, Relic. That gave those Riptides plenty of range to just remove my models, so I instead outplayed him. He had first turn and deployed in the middle of his deployment zone putting the missile commander, buff-commander, farsight, and o'vesa into the crisis suit team. I put down both knights on the line roughly in the middle of my zone and outflanked all my bikes. I had 3 squads come in turn 2 (had lost a knight already) and only the small melta squad got to choose their side. Despite the infamous S8 AP2 Large Blast intercepting, at the end of turn 5 he had 1 riptide with a couple wounds on him, and I had about half of my bikes. The riptide is beatable. If you can't beat it, look at yourself and ask what you are doing wrong.
Martel732 wrote: It's never just one. So the tri- or tetra- Riptide list decimates an enemy list and then the Tau loses *maybe* one to a gets hot roll. Sure seems worth it to me.
You're just so wrong it's not funny. I was at a semi-local game store this weekend and my first opponent had 4 Riptides in his list. Ignoring the fact his list was illegal (too many ECPA's), I tabled him easily in 6 turns. His list was:
Spoiler:
Farsight
O'Vesa (IC Riptide)
Commander with VT, TL, 2xMP
Riptide with HBC, VT, FNP, ECPA
Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP
3-man XV8's with 2xMP, TL 6-man FW team
4-man Pathfinder team.
Allied Tau:
Buffcommander
6-man FW team.
4-man Pathfinder team.
And my list was:
Spoiler:
Kahn on a bike
Chapter Master with artificer, shield eternal, thunder hammer, bike
Command squad with bikes, 4x grav guns, apothecary
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
4-man Bike FA Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, meltabomb
Knight Errant
Knight Paladin
The mission was Hammer and anvil, Relic. That gave those Riptides plenty of range to just remove my models, so I instead outplayed him. He had first turn and deployed in the middle of his deployment zone putting the missile commander, buff-commander, farsight, and o'vesa into the crisis suit team. I put down both knights on the line roughly in the middle of my zone and outflanked all my bikes. I had 3 squads come in turn 2 (had lost a knight already) and only the small melta squad got to choose their side. Despite the infamous S8 AP2 Large Blast intercepting, at the end of turn 5 he had 1 riptide with a couple wounds on him, and I had about half of my bikes. The riptide is beatable. If you can't beat it, look at yourself and ask what you are doing wrong.
Use less knights, then adopt that attitude
Like it or not, knights ARE in the game and they're a free (in the sense they require no other unit 'tax' to be taken and are Battle Brothers) choice fir all IoM armies.
Maybe most IoM players should take more knights to fifht Riptudes if it works so well?
Not giving GW that kind of $$ for their still mostly gak game.
whine and whine. Normally I will advocate killing everything else first especially markerlights , and staying in cover.
But if you want to kill them:
grav centurions (podded or tigurius or gated), Imperial Knights, grav bike, psychic shenanigans (invisbility, psychic scream, shrouding etc...), sternguards, Orbital/TFCs aiming markerdrones/tetras, thunderwolves, DreadKnights, generic force weapons. Not sure if counted, but the typical Bike Chapter Master can tie one up as well.
Most good IoM lists will have some combination of the above.
Quadtide list is so 2013. They're still strong, but nothing like what they're used to be. They REALLY need their markerlights.
It also sounds like you're bringing a subpar list against a competitive one, then it wouldn't matter if there were riptides or not.
I think it's been clearly established that the issue has gone from wanting to balance the Riptide to making it worthless on a perfectly set table in it's favor and going against a lower tier army with their worst possible table.
In all honesty, as a chaos player who plays unmarked / Tzeentch primarily I must admit that Tau overall are not too bad, they are very good, but most of their codex is not overpowered.
However that being said, Riptides give me a lot of problems, they are usually the only thing left on the table at the end, and can be very difficult to kill.
I have a friend who will run 2 riptides regardless of points level, so 1k will have 2, 2k will have 2, so it makes it difficult really at any point level game to win.
I compare the riptide to a chaos equivalent which would be the Defiler, it is the same points, same slot, and serves the same function. Now have the 2 of them have a 1v1 fight and you will see the Riptide has no problem destroying it, in fact Riptides have no problem destroying anything, and are very tough to kill, and therein lies the problem.
Even compared to 3x Oblitorators (more expensive), or a land raider (also more expensive) the Riptide can do more damage and has mobility and survivability.
So anything that you have problems with needs to be 'balanced' I.e. needed into the ground?
I have problems with grav guns... Let's make them 50 points each and they wound everything on a 6 and only on a 6. That'll show them for using a good unit! <angrily shakes fist in the air>
SGTPozy wrote: So anything that you have problems with needs to be 'balanced' I.e. needed into the ground?
I have problems with grav guns... Let's make them 50 points each and they wound everything on a 6 and only on a 6. That'll show them for using a good unit! <angrily shakes fist in the air>
No, I am comparing point value equivalent or greater in my codex that fill the same role that are not nearly as good, and saying that they are a challenge because I really have nothing comparable.
Centurions are comparable to Oblitorators. Grav guns are great, I don't get access to any of them, but at least the unit they are mounted on can be killed with reasonable expectations unlike the Riptide.
But if you want to kill them:
grav centurions (podded or tigurius or gated), Imperial Knights, grav bike, psychic shenanigans (invisbility, psychic scream, shrouding etc...), sternguards, Orbital/TFCs aiming markerdrones/tetras, thunderwolves, DreadKnights, generic force weapons. Not sure if counted, but the typical Bike Chapter Master can tie one up as well.
Most good IoM lists will have some combination of the above.
The above are things I list in SM-ish armies that destroys Riptides, especially grav in one round of shooting if it doesn't nova-charges its shield. It's more of a CSM codex being lackluster than anything tbh. Personally, when I play CSM, I just throw my spawns at a riptide, all my CSM lists have 2 units of them.
Alternatives could be Be'lakor, an invisible Maulerfiend (with lasher tendrils) to deal witih a Riptide, psychic shriek.. Or if you don't mind Daemons, ally in Balesword and Biomancy-souped up Nurgle DP.
Or if you realise that a riptide isn't fearless, attempt a multicharge, destroy the weaker unit and sweep the Riptide. lol Personally that's the easiest way to kill a Riptide no matter what army I play.
Yes I have, and I run an Oblitorator star myself with 2 sorcs in a land raider that is very nasty.
The Riptide is overall a very good unit, it is so good I would go as far as saying it is too cost effective, and becomes an auto include.
I've had to use my 500pt 10 man Tzeentch termintor squad deepstriking with 5x combi-meltas to kill a lone Riptide then to be blasted to pieces.
The point of this game is to build interesting lists that build strength from synergising with other units to boost their effectiveness. Then using said list to the best of your abilities using tactics to execute said combinations as effectively as possible given the scenario of the game.
The Riptide bypasses all of that and is just flat out amazing in every way and doesn't need help from anything to be effective. You might argue that hey, markerlights are important too for making them effective, but I would have to disagree. They don't need marker lights to be good, they just become stupidly good with them.
Now please stop acting like a child and attacking me for having a very valid opinion on a problem area for the Tau codex. I said the rest of the codex is good, but you completely ignored that fact.
When does this not happen, again? I guess I'm not lasting long enough to wait for the "1" or "2".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Savageconvoy wrote: I think it's been clearly established that the issue has gone from wanting to balance the Riptide to making it worthless on a perfectly set table in it's favor and going against a lower tier army with their worst possible table.
I never once said to make it worthless. You said that. I only advocate a minor point increase for the base Riptide because of its unprecedented durability. The HBC can be free and have not gets hot as far as I care.
Your "Obliterator-star in a landraider" is very very pricey and underwhelming unit compared to what the SMCenturion Star can do.
500 points in 10 terminators is a poor choice of a unit. I can think of an incredible number of far FAR superior units with 500 points from across the codexes.
The problem in this case, the CSM dex needs to be buffed.
Can we just lowered the W by 1 and not allow EWO to be on it?
I agree that it has way too many wounds, and it is too incredible an interceptor platform.
Actually a prescienced centurion unit, can reliably do 5W to a 3++ riptide, so if the riptide had taken any wounds, it can die to the centstar even with the 3++ up.
Honestly my lists beat competitive Eldar lists, I do beat Tau lists that aren't heavy with Riptides, but once i fight 2 or more of them it seems like I am destined to lose the battle right off the bat.
Invisible Oblits with 4+ invlun, Eternal warrior, and 4+ feel no pain is not something to be ignored. My sorc also runs scrolls of Magnus and I can get 8+ powers by the end of the game, often with life leech also.
If I can get the right combination of powers I can eat centurion stars.
The point of this game is to build interesting lists that build strength from synergising with other units to boost their effectiveness. Then using said list to the best of your abilities using tactics to execute said combinations as effectively as possible given the scenario of the game.
The Riptide bypasses all of that and is just flat out amazing in every way and doesn't need help from anything to be effective. You might argue
This assertion is based on what exactly?
I'd argue the contrary since most good units need just as little support (or less) than riptides.
What kind of support do Flyrants, Wraithknights, Nemesis Dreadknights, Imperial Knights, etc. need? Not even going to menyion Wave Serpents.
Can we just lowered the W by 1 and not allow EWO to be on it?
I agree that it has way too many wounds, and it is too incredible an interceptor platform.
The point of this game is to build interesting lists that build strength from synergising with other units to boost their effectiveness. Then using said list to the best of your abilities using tactics to execute said combinations as effectively as possible given the scenario of the game.
The Riptide bypasses all of that and is just flat out amazing in every way and doesn't need help from anything to be effective. You might argue
This assertion is based on what exactly?
I'd argue the contrary since most good units need just as little support (or less) than riptides.
What kind of support do Flyrants, Wraithknights, Nemesis Dreadknights, Imperial Knights, etc. need? Not even going to menyion Wave Serpents.
The guy is just a Tau hater with no real logic to back himself up with.
The Riptide is overall a very good unit, it is so good I would go as far as saying it is too cost effective, and becomes an auto include.
ame.
Spawn are also an auto-include, as is the Mark of Burgle; so shuld we increase the points of these?
I would agree with your statement, Chaos spawn with the mark of nurgle are far too good for their point value. In fact I stopped using them because I felt they are far too cheese to use, I am also not a win at all costs player but prefer good solid games that the winner can't be determined until the end of the game. Maybe I am crazy for wanting to have a challenging game instead of rinse repeat win cycle.
For the other comment, Imperial knights I find are easier to kill than Riptides. Wraithknights are also very good, but lack the DPS that a Riptide has and has comparable if not better survivability compared to a wraithknight.
It is the combination of damage output and amazing survivability at a discount that makes them so good.
I will often run 2x Laspreds with a Landraider and Defiler / or Vindicator tank and it takes 2-3 rounds of focused firepower to kill a single Riptide. So that translates to 2-3 rounds of more than 2x point cost heavy firepower to kill one.
The point of this game is to build interesting lists that build strength from synergising with other units to boost their effectiveness. Then using said list to the best of your abilities using tactics to execute said combinations as effectively as possible given the scenario of the game.
The Riptide bypasses all of that and is just flat out amazing in every way and doesn't need help from anything to be effective. You might argue
This assertion is based on what exactly?
I'd argue the contrary since most good units need just as little support (or less) than riptides.
What kind of support do Flyrants, Wraithknights, Nemesis Dreadknights, Imperial Knights, etc. need? Not even going to menyion Wave Serpents.
Flyrants need a Malanthrope/Venomthrope or VSG to make sure they aren't alpha striked off the table before they can fly.
Wraithknights, Dreadknights need help making sure they don't get tarpitted.
IKs need AA help (since they have literally no effective AA)
Wave Serpents are the closest to not needing support, but they require taking other units anyway.
Can we just lowered the W by 1 and not allow EWO to be on it?
I agree that it has way too many wounds, and it is too incredible an interceptor platform.
The point of this game is to build interesting lists that build strength from synergising with other units to boost their effectiveness. Then using said list to the best of your abilities using tactics to execute said combinations as effectively as possible given the scenario of the game.
The Riptide bypasses all of that and is just flat out amazing in every way and doesn't need help from anything to be effective. You might argue
This assertion is based on what exactly?
I'd argue the contrary since most good units need just as little support (or less) than riptides.
What kind of support do Flyrants, Wraithknights, Nemesis Dreadknights, Imperial Knights, etc. need? Not even going to menyion Wave Serpents.
The guy is just a Tau hater with no real logic to back himself up with.
Clearly your a Tau fanboi who is extremely defensive about a unit that you clearly abuse to win games to make you feel better about your life.
I gave many examples including experiences when facing off against Tau yet you label me as a Tau hater.
Can we just lowered the W by 1 and not allow EWO to be on it?
I agree that it has way too many wounds, and it is too incredible an interceptor platform.
So you're fine with it keeping the FNP option?
Mmmh, it's a purchased upgrade (3.5 meltas), not sure if you realised that. Indifferent about it because it just makes the Riptide even more expensive. I would ignore the Riptide who has it.
My meta don't really see much Riptide with the FnP upgrade, we are of the philosophy to have more units/guns rather than just overloading a single model. So instead of 2 Riptides with FnP, I would face 3 Riptides quite commonly-_- I rather deal with 2 riptides with FnP, than 3 personally.
I usually abuse the fact that Riptides are not fearless and are easily tarpited with WS2 and 3A.
jreilly89 wrote: I think supporting fire is much more damaging. It really hurts assault, one of the areas that are most used to hurt Tau.
This is an understatement. Assault didn't just 'hurt' Tau. It was what made Tau nearly impossible to win with. Supporting Fire has given Tau a fair fighting chance in assault. Nothing more.
I see a lot of talk toward reducing the effectiveness of markerlights. I think some of you are forgetting that shooting is the only form of offense that Tau have and their BS is not high enough to make it reliable. The fact that they have to rely on markerlights adds the variable of 'maybe they'll get help, maybe not'.
The problem isn't the Tau. The problem is that people still harbor the dated notion that the Tau are supposed to be a pushover army. And if they're not easily crushed, then their codex was done wrong.
An army with high powered, long range weaponry which uses advanced tracking and targeting systems under high efficiency optics should actually be very difficult to defeat.
Frankly, for fluff's sake, Pathfinders should have been given Camouflage for having that point of armor reduced. That was a reduction for which they were given nothing in return. Other than that, their codex represents them properly.
Every army has its time in the sun. Don't begrudge Tau players theirs. Difficult armies are the best to fight against. I didn't win tournaments with my 4th ed DE by fighting pushover armies.
Don't try to pull Tau down to your skill level, raise your skill level up to compete with Tau armies.
Flyrants need a Malanthrope/Venomthrope or VSG to make sure they aren't alpha striked off the table before they can fly.
Wraithknights, Dreadknights need help making sure they don't get tarpitted.
IKs need AA help (since they have literally no effective AA)
Wave Serpents are the closest to not needing support, but they require taking other units anyway.
Flyrants it's nice to have, not need, not like X points of only flyrants will be alphed that easily by X points of something else.
IKs: do tell about the awesome AA that an IA Riptide has access to. An IA Riptide needs just as much AA support as a Knight.
Tarpitting(NDK at least): If you've managed to tarpit a NDK between his excellent anti-hirde ranged weapons and the Teleporter then your opponent is doing something wrong.
jreilly89 wrote: I think supporting fire is much more damaging. It really hurts assault, one of the areas that are most used to hurt Tau.
This is an understatement. Assault didn't just 'hurt' Tau. It was what made Tau nearly impossible to win with. Supporting Fire has given Tau a fair fighting chance in assault. Nothing more.
I see a lot of talk toward reducing the effectiveness of markerlights. I think some of you are forgetting that shooting is the only form of offense that Tau have and their BS is not high enough to make it reliable. The fact that they have to rely on markerlights adds the variable of 'maybe they'll get help, maybe not'.
The problem isn't the Tau. The problem is that people still harbor the dated notion that the Tau are supposed to be a pushover army. And if they're not easily crushed, then their codex was done wrong.
An army with high powered, long range weaponry which uses advanced tracking and targeting systems under high efficiency optics should actually be very difficult to defeat.
Frankly, for fluff's sake, Pathfinders should have been given Camouflage for having that point of armor reduced. That was a reduction for which they were given nothing in return. Other than that, their codex represents them properly.
Every army has its time in the sun. Don't begrudge Tau players theirs. Difficult armies are the best to fight against. I didn't win tournaments with my 4th ed DE by fighting pushover armies.
Don't try to pull Tau down to your skill level, raise your skill level up to compete with Tau armies.
I agree with what you are saying. My only issue with Tau is the discount awesomeness of Riptides.
The rest of the codex is very good and I believe they are in a very good place as far as balance goes otherwise.
Mmmh, it's a purchased upgrade (3.5 meltas), not sure if you realised that. Indifferent about it because it just makes the Riptide even more expensive. I would ignore the Riptide who has it.
Yeah it is expensive but everyone else complains about it.
) the big mark'o markdrone unit that if you dont deal with immidietly will probably cause major issues.
)
