Yes it takes more, you should be using other weapons too tho, like missiles, HWB's, Blasters, etc... if you are taking only Dis Cannons as your only AT then yeah, its not going to be amazing at it, the point is they are almost as good as DL at killing tanks, so you dont need to take Lances, use cheaper other things are are just as good for the points if not better. Or take 1 DL Ravager for back up damage if you feel you rather have that.
No one is saying Dis are perfect, just in the current meta with low Tanks on the table they are a good pick, but if you are going against 6+ tanks, then yeah i would add something else.
I'm not using Disintegrators as my only Anti-tank. All I'm saying is that so far Disintegrators have consistently been abysmal against vehicles.
Hence, I really wouldn't want to take many of them in place of Lances.
The current disintegrator craze in competitive play generally comes from the fact that the meta is more focused on custode bikers, drukhari vehicles, and GEQ swarms than heavy tanks, and disintegrators fare much better against the range of matchups you typically see even if their effectiveness drops against the basic T7 3+ tank.
If you're casually building your army, I will always counsel variety in all things. Spam is the enemy of having a functional army come next edition.
The current disintegrator craze in competitive play generally comes from the fact that the meta is more focused on custode bikers, drukhari vehicles, and GEQ swarms than heavy tanks, and disintegrators fare much better against the range of matchups you typically see even if their effectiveness drops against the basic T7 3+ tank.
The current disintegrator craze in competitive play generally comes from the fact that the meta is more focused on custode bikers, drukhari vehicles, and GEQ swarms than heavy tanks, and disintegrators fare much better against the range of matchups you typically see even if their effectiveness drops against the basic T7 3+ tank.
Ah, okay. That makes more sense.
I take them on my Razorwings, but I take DLs on my ravagers, because my Razorwings are much more likely to pull the ol' "Fly up right next to a character of some description and pump shots directly into their face" trick.
On Dissies, context and math matter.
On most targets, the Dissie is equal to or better tthan the Lance, straight up. The exception is T6/7 vehicles, 3 Dark Lances is 1.3 wounds better than 3 Dissies (using 3 because we're talking Ravagers here).
Variance also hurts Lances more. You might destroy that Rhino in one round of shooting, or you might whiff completely. With Dissies, you're more reliable at putting wounds on whatever you're shooting.
In addition, Blasters got the D6 damage upgrade and Haywire is good, which makes Lances way less valuable in a relative sense than they were before. They used to be THE answer to tanks, especially with Dissies being more expensive.
With all that, plus the meta context Scotsman described, I'll take Dissies over Lances every time.
RedGriefer wrote: Between Strife, Cursed Blade, and Red Grief what are people running for their Wych Cult detachments?
I know Strife and Cursed Blade increase their damage flat out but is there any viability of running Red Grief wyches due to their mobility?
I use Red Grief b.c its very important to get an early charge with my Wyches, i take 2 Succubus, 3x5 with 1 Shardnet all in 2 Raiders from my Air Wing Detachment of Flayed Skull to give them a bonus 3" move, 20" on average turn 1 with 2 raiders is pretty good, that way it keeps my 10 Grots and Talos from being hit to hard, i want my Raiders to be shot at, and normally a Wych unit will die but thats why i take 3 and they are super cheap.
It's not very fair to judge the disintegrator cannon as being ineffective against vehicles when you are firing a grand total of one of them.
Apparently 3 Disintegrators = 1 Disintegrator. Who know?
Wyldcarde wrote: Shooting 9 disintegrator cannon shots at a vehicle might not do the job, but shooting 48 disintegerator cannon shots at a vehicle will kill it.
So the Disintegrator Cannon is horribly inefficient, but apparently this is a point in its favour.
Sorry I misspoke. 3 disintegrator cannons. Not one. But my point still stands. Judging them on so little rate of fire isnt entirely fair on them.
And as for my second point, the vehicle dies well before the last dis cannon shot. Was just making the point that weight of fire is what works for them.
But others have made the point since. It's good, reliable damage against any target. It works as well against a shadowsword as a chimera.
And allying in craftworlds for doom access amps them up considerably.
RedGriefer wrote: Between Strife, Cursed Blade, and Red Grief what are people running for their Wych Cult detachments?
I know Strife and Cursed Blade increase their damage flat out but is there any viability of running Red Grief wyches due to their mobility?
Oh most definitely. RG has the best single succubus build (blast pistol+Blood Glaive+3++ trait), massive utility on their reavers, and excellent threat range on their wyches. They're generally the go-to for me if I'm looking at an Outrider of wyches with a heavy focus on tying things up rather than killing, which allows for much better board control and longevity than the other wych cults. My red grief last far longer than any wyches I run out of other cults, because they're rarely not in combat.
I've tried 2 wych cult battallions joined by a black heart spearhead (which was there only for the ravagers). One strife battallion with 3x10 wyches in raiders and a 9 man squad of bikes with 3 blasters plus a red grief battallion with 3x5 wyches in venoms (better in other raiders but I don't own more of them) and a couple of min squads of reavers. Very interesting combinations, the min squads of red grief wyches, succubus and the bikes can tarpit things wery well while the strife units can do a lot of damage.
About red grief detachments I prefer a cheap outrider with just a succubus and 3x3 bikes though.
On the subject of Harli allies, I’m considering a vanguard with 2
Jesters, a solitaire, and a troup master. Only around 275 points, and shores up our anti infantry issue. Thoughts? Also what masque would work best with this configuration?
Red Grief vs Cursed Blade for Wyches is definitely going to depend on what kind of meta you're facing. If, like me, you face a lot of close combat heavy armies like Tyranids, Blood Angels, Orks etc, then Cursed Blade is definitely the way to go as the extra combat punch is very needed and they're going to come to you anyway. If you're against lots of shooty armies like Tau or Guard, you definitely need the mobility of Red Grief.
If we're talking a tournament setting, Red Grief is probably the best in this meta, but then again I'm not convinced Wyches are a top tier unit anyway.
Salt donkey wrote: On the subject of Harli allies, I’m considering a vanguard with 2
Jesters, a solitaire, and a troup master. Only around 275 points, and shores up our anti infantry issue. Thoughts? Also what masque would work best with this configuration?
Haven't had a chance to look at the Harli book myself yet, but I can already see myself at least recommending a shadowseer for your detachment. Having some measure of psychic control is going to help a lot, and if the index entry is any indication, the Shadowseer is no slouch even beyond her smoke and mirrors.
Salt donkey wrote: On the subject of Harli allies, I’m considering a vanguard with 2
Jesters, a solitaire, and a troup master. Only around 275 points, and shores up our anti infantry issue. Thoughts? Also what masque would work best with this configuration?
Haven't had a chance to look at the Harli book myself yet, but I can already see myself at least recommending a shadowseer for your detachment. Having some measure of psychic control is going to help a lot, and if the index entry is any indication, the Shadowseer is no slouch even beyond her smoke and mirrors.
Yeah the deer would likely be better overall, it’s just a fair bit more pricy than the troup master. Might be worth it for the reasons you mention, but it means dropping a succubus from list.
Just went up against custodes today as my first game against custodes and his first with custodes. Custodes did trample me and maybe this is odd to say but if i had to say venoms with shredders seemed to do the most damage.
You see guys he had two -1 to hit abilities (one with a custode on foot and the other on a biker) which basically turned my shooting against the main mass of his army into absolute garbage (like ork shooting level garbage).
Melee against custodes is tough due to counter-charge command point abilities. However if you keep yourself at a fairly large charge range for other custodes units from the main one you charge then i think it can be negated somewhat if not completely.
Also considering the invulnerable saves are at worst a 4+ on each guy i find shredders do oddly well against custodes and my trueborn with shredders in venoms did a fair amount of damage vs his flanking forces. Surprisingly after a good 3 turns they were one of the few things i still had. The other thing i imagine does well is mortal wounds like with mandrakes and somewhat with the void ravens. It still doesn't do a whole lot because the units are so few in number but void mines helped.
After 3 turns i lost most of my army and i had to leave so i just called it as him winning. It was more objective based but either way i was losing pretty hardcore. He lost probably 8 custode troops (maybe 6 were elites) and then about 2 custode bikes. 2 of the bikes were hanging on their last wound (could swear one of those had died but whatever).
Honestly as strong as custodes are i'm not sure anything would survive in melee against them and the negative modifiers to at least shooting bubbles are rough for dark eldar considering our auto hit weapons are so balls vs custodes bikers in the first place (str 3 vs t 6 does not equal fun times).
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Btw how do snipers work for us. I think i'll use some hex rifles in the near future in a spam fashion. Let me know if they're ok.
Alrighty. For the current league at my LGS I decided to dust off my Dark Space Elves...mostly because I was led to believe it would be a "narrative" league. The previous narrative league I ran my Corsairs counts-as Ynnari and was able to have a fun and flavorful time as all the missions were custom written for the league. But I've been wanting to try out the new DE book for a while so I went all-in on DE this time around. I assumed I'd be able to play a bunch of different units I own and have fun, etc. Turns out the narrative in this league was one sentence of "story" and then an instruction to play ITC Champions Scenario 1: Seize Ground. Sooooo. Yeah. Not narrative at all apparently. I hadn't read this when I designed my force, but when I showed up to the table I knew something was weird about my opponents army...and I quickly learned it was designed to deny me as many scoring opportunities as possible. Very narrative, very fluffy
The entire league is 1500 points each week, with the ability to adjust lists as you see fit. My opponent was playing Dark Angels, and though I probably can't remember his exact list it was something like:
Spoiler:
Azrael, Lieutenant
3x Bog standard tac squads
1x 3-man Plasma Inceptors
1x Dev Squad with Plasma Cannons and Lascannons and a bit of ablative chaff
2x 10-man Hellblasters (yeah)
Basically his goal was to castle up and shoot me off the board with the ridiculous HQ buffs and lots of plasma
My list was:
Spoiler:
Obsidian Rose Battalion 2x Archons with blasters
3x Sslyth
3x 5 man Kabalites with a blaster
1x Ravager (3 DL)
1x Voidraven (VL, missles)
1x Raider (DL)
5x Venoms (2xSC)
Archons+Sslyth in one venom, kabalites and 5-man wyches in the others, Succubi and 8-man wyches in Raider
Seeing what I was up against I took Kingslayer (Azrael needed to die anyhow), Behind, and Old Skool. I lost the roll, but luckily I had put a couple venoms (inc Archon boat) in reserve. He shot the stuffing out of my Ravager turn 1. I was able to drop off Kabalites in cover on a couple of objectives and zoom my venoms up the board. Thanks to mostly the -1 to hit, invuln and bad rolling on his part my venoms survived far longer than they should have and were able to score me more obj points on subsequent turns. Turn 2 I deep struck with the reserves, including the Mandrakes, and flew up the board with the Wych boat converging around where he had the Hellblasters, Devs, a unit of tac bubble wrap, Azrael and the lieutenant all castled up. I spent several turns slowly chewing through that blob of awful, helped on by pretty abysmal rolling on his part. Mandrakes did A LOT of heavy lifting for their points cost, pretty much single-handedly shooting then charging the entire Dev squad to death. But what surprised me most (even though I have heard they are good) was how great the wyches were. Not only did they do admirably in combat, but when I was able to tie up the Hellblasters, etc, their no escape + nets literally won me the game by not allowing the marines (and Azrael at one point) to disengage and use their fall back/shoot shenanigans. So effing good. My succubi murdered Azrael in two rounds of pretty one-sided combat. The lieutenant (who did manage to get away once) was one-shot by the sole remaining blaster kabalite from a venom squad that he had nearly decimated. Sweet revenge.
Turns 2/3 were balanced on a knife's edge. Had he shot any better or killed more of my zippy Venoms I wouldn't have been able to dominate on Objectives (plus shoot dozens of poison shots per turn) and that would have really hurt me. However I turned the corner and the last couple of turns really went in my favor. I went from being absolutely disillusioned by the non-"narrative" nature of the match to being psyched that my ragtag list (of basically what I had sitting around) was able to put out a lot of hurt.
I think for next round I will swap out one venom and the ravager for another raider and bulk up that second wych squad to have two boats full. I also will max out (or close to max out) the Mandrakes. They were just too good. The ravager was a good distraction carnifex but that's kinda also what the Voidraven is for...and he didn't even shoot at that (I guess because he was smart or something haha).
Anyway, I hope some of this was inspiring or helpful. If anyone has any feedback for me let me know. Basically I am still not going to try to be uber competitive this league, but it is nice to know that my Delfs can hold their own in an ITC scenario.
Salt donkey wrote: On the subject of Harli allies, I’m considering a vanguard with 2
Jesters, a solitaire, and a troup master. Only around 275 points, and shores up our anti infantry issue. Thoughts? Also what masque would work best with this configuration?
I would definitely skip the TM in favor of a Shadowseer. TM's going to be only buffing the Solitaire, and with the Shadowseer you get several powers that are good in a mostly allied contingent.
-1 to hit vs everything debuff spell (great for fighting superheavies, kastelan bots, other big single unit threats)
-Two character-targeting Mortal Wound spells, good in an army that has limited sniping options
-Warptime for your Solitaire/for herself
You also then gain access to the Heroes Path strat, which is awesome when you go second, which you will most frequently do with MSU spammy dark eldar.
For Masque, I would recommend a few possibilities:
-Frozen Stars with Cegorach's Rose relic on the Solitaire, if you want the Solitaire to shine as a killing unit. Wonderful damage output, especially if you take a wound on overwatch so you can use the strat that gives you +2A and +2S.
-Midnight Sorrow with Starmist Raiment relic on the Solitaire, if you want the Solitaire to be a tie-up unit. Pairs really nicely with Red Grief if you take the Twilight Pathways power on the Shadowseer to bounce him in turn 1. He denies overwatch and ushers in your Red Grief Reavers/Hellions/etc.
-Dreaming Shadow with Curtainfall relic/Possibly Luck of the Laughing God warlord trait on the Death Jester. Luck trait is a BIT aggressive, but does make him a darn sight more reliable, though 99% of the time if you're taking Dark Eldar, ESPECIALLY Black Heart, you want the Player of Twilight warlord trait on the Shadowseer. Player of Twilight is absolutely busted in combination with Agents of Vect, because not only do you have the chance for an absolutely free AOV, you get to roll to try and get your opponent's CPs back from their spent stratagem, before they get their CPs refunded. But just Curtainfall in general does make the DJ a mean mother hubbard.
With Imperial Knights codex coming up they have missiles that do alot of damage, and a new stratagem makes them target characters! So keep some CP for verdict or dust of a Sslyth
Ok I’m convinced that the 40 or so points for the shadowseer over the the TM is worth it,. It does enough better and different to be worth it. I should have clarified that relics and warlord traits aren’t relavant for what what masque I decide on, as labyrinth cunning is superior to player of twighlight (remember it only works on your opponents stratagems, not your own) and I don’t feel dark elder relics are worse than harlequin relics. So really just the traits themselves and the stratagems matter. To that end, considlating in extra 6 inches seems really good as it means I can get the solitaire into the best position as possible. Although the minus leadership one also looks interesting...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Whoops just found out I misread player of tiwlight, now I have to decide if it’s worth making the Quins detachment my warlord detachment, or my dark eldar
Salt donkey wrote: Ok I’m convinced that the 40 or so points for the shadowseer over the the TM is worth it,. It does enough better and different to be worth it. I should have clarified that relics and warlord traits aren’t relavant for what what masque I decide on, as labyrinth cunning is superior to player of twighlight (remember it only works on your opponents stratagems, not your own) and I don’t feel dark elder relics are worse than harlequin relics. So really just the traits themselves and the stratagems matter. To that end, considlating in extra 6 inches seems really good as it means I can get the solitaire into the best position as possible. Although the minus leadership one also looks interesting...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Whoops just found out I misread player of tiwlight, now I have to decide if it’s worth making the Quins detachment my warlord detachment, or my dark eldar
I love Shadowseers they are for sure worth their points, i mean they can do 3 smite type of attacks lol, its not hard doing 3D3 MW's, then you have -1 to wound aura and you can even have loads of -1 to hit powers, double movement, ect...
But IMO Warlock/Farseer still helps DE more if you are not looking at taking harlequins units, BUT, Skyweavers are just amazing! Take large unit and a Shadowseer and watch them work! Works great in DE especially since we have slow melee meatsticks (Grots and Talos) and long range support (Ravagers/RWJF's).
I have a HUGE Harlequin force, but after reading the book for 2 weeks now, i would say my Ally force with harlequin for my DE would be a Patrol of 6 Skyweavers, Shadowseer and Troupe's with only 5 FP's in a Skyweaver (this is 640pts) so it still leaves 1360 for DE, well enough for 2 Battalions BH Kabal and 1 PoF Coven (with lots of Grots).
So i'm curious guys. I think i want to swap out my wych cult secondary army with covens units. With all the trouble i end up facing between low wound psykers, various guard commanders and -1 to hit characters i may go for hex rifle wracks and haemonculus dudes. Then i'll use the minimum size wrack units as an anti infantry wall and beat stick for units that close to melee with haemies boosting wrack toughness to 5.
I just played a game with a ton of red grief reavers, they were able to get a first turn charge, much to my opponents surprise but to be honest they hit like wet pool noodles. If I hit something a bit tougher I feel like I'd bounce off.
RedGriefer wrote: I just played a game with a ton of red grief reavers, they were able to get a first turn charge, much to my opponents surprise but to be honest they hit like wet pool noodles. If I hit something a bit tougher I feel like I'd bounce off.
They're not units you use to do big damage. You take advantage of that mobility for those early charges in order to tie up enemy units and keep them from being effective against the rest of your army.
You know i just had another idea. It's kinda dumb but it could work. I'm going for almost 500 pts of warriors and then adding a dark lance per ten guys and make half of them with blasters and the other half with shredders. I'd prefer to take blasters on all of them though as 16 blasters are not something you want to deep strike or get your custode jetbikes too near esp. with another 8 dark lance hitting home with it. The idea is that each warriors costs practically nothing (1/2 the price of a scourge) and against long ranged firepower the anti-infantry guns aren't too hot for killing a spammed cheap unit (far as i know). I think i'll either take them as ten man or 20 man squads but i'm thinking 80 will do it. Maybe 60 if prices aren't going where i want them too.
I will still take scourge with blasters for cheap firepower but with the limit of 3 units per non-troops choice this seems very needed. Perhaps i could also take two 20 man units of warriors with blasters and deep strike them in through webway but we'll have to see.
Also i'm going to use reavers as a screen for any melee units trying to get at my shredder trueborn in venoms. I think that should work pretty well as the bikes can keep up and form a solid screen esp. if you boost em to toughness 5 with combat drugs.
So there is team tournament coming up and I'm only allowed one detachment. Which, for Dark Eldar is kind of rough, but the points per person are 750, so it's very manageable.
I was thinking of doing pure coven for this.
Patrol detachment
Haemonculus w/ ichor injector
5 wracks w/ 1 ossefactor in a raider w/ dark lance
4 grotesques all w/ flesh gauntlets in raider w/ dark lance
Talos w/ twin heat lance and 2x macro-scalpels
Cronos w/ Spirit Vortex
5 scourges w/ 4 shredders
This comes out to be right around 750 exactly. I plan on taking Prophets of Flesh for the 4+ Invul. but then I am looking at which artefacts and warlord traits are best.
Should I take the Prophets of Flesh warlord trait to generate more CP? because CP will be at a minimum here.
Any other thoughts on the best coven for 750 points?
Icculus wrote: So there is team tournament coming up and I'm only allowed one detachment. Which, for Dark Eldar is kind of rough, but the points per person are 750, so it's very manageable.
I was thinking of doing pure coven for this.
Patrol detachment
Haemonculus w/ ichor injector
5 wracks w/ 1 ossefactor in a raider w/ dark lance
4 grotesques all w/ flesh gauntlets in raider w/ dark lance
Talos w/ twin heat lance and 2x macro-scalpels
Cronos w/ Spirit Vortex
5 scourges w/ 4 shredders
This comes out to be right around 750 exactly. I plan on taking Prophets of Flesh for the 4+ Invul. but then I am looking at which artefacts and warlord traits are best.
Should I take the Prophets of Flesh warlord trait to generate more CP? because CP will be at a minimum here.
Any other thoughts on the best coven for 750 points?
It seems really weird to take Shredder Scourges in a list with so little anti-vehicle weaponry. Would Haywire Scourges not make more sense?
Also, I'm not convinced the Cronos is worth it in such a small list.
I actually won a 750 team tournament with a similar list. I cut out both the raiders and added two more grotesques a haemonculus and a talos for a spearhead detachment. I went cheaper on everything took haywire on the two talos and scourges. Two of the three matches was no vehicles so take that into consideration in smaller games.
Hades wrote: I actually won a 750 team tournament with a similar list. I cut out both the raiders and added two more grotesques a haemonculus and a talos for a spearhead detachment. I went cheaper on everything took haywire on the two talos and scourges. Two of the three matches was no vehicles so take that into consideration in smaller games.
So you went total foot-list. I like it. What warlord trait or artefacts did you use? Did you make use of any particular stratagems?
Just the extra relic, I really liked the parasite's kiss on the haemy as it was essentially two extra swings with the electrocorrosive whip but this was before the whole can you cant you debate now that the haemy default is a stinger pistol. Using the stratagem to make the grotesques to hit on 2s on turn 2 and reroll failed wounds is really good. Backed up by Vexator mask there isn't much that can take them in cc. Mostly just saved CPs for critical invuln rerolls and WL trait was +1 to wound. It's too good with EC Whip.
Parasite's kiss seems ok but I usually give my archon the Djin blade. If you really wanted to give him a pistol the Soul-seeker might be better, but I still would rather the blade. Blade with eternal hatred for a warlord trait makes him pretty brutal in combat even against things with high toughness (like custodes jetbikes).
Also, since I have lurked in this thread for a while I figured I would offer my list that I have been working on/running since the codex dropped. I am preparing for NOVA and so far I have had some pretty good results except against all dawneagle jetbike lists, which I think is one of the worst matchups for the army:
Heavy disintegrator cannon builds help with the custodes bike match up. A craftworld detachment for access to doom helps even more. It's a big game of keep away as you try keep them at range and out of combat. Tho I play full mech which changes things.
Quixeemoto wrote: Parasite's kiss seems ok but I usually give my archon the Djin blade. If you really wanted to give him a pistol the Soul-seeker might be better, but I still would rather the blade. Blade with eternal hatred for a warlord trait makes him pretty brutal in combat even against things with high toughness (like custodes jetbikes).
Yeah, the Djin Blade is good, it just doesn't fit in with the theme of my Archons.
I agree that the Soul Seeker is probably better, but it's only available to Poison Tongue, which I won't always be using.
Regarding the list you posted, how did you find the Blasters on your Reavers? Also, do you think the Splinter Cannons on the Warrior squads were worth it?
RedGriefer wrote: Does anyone have experience using a tantalus of any kind in games yet? What faction of drukhari was it and how did it perform?
No experience with one, but I would take it as either Strife or Dark Creed. Strife gets you the double shoot stratagem, and Creed gets you the sniper stratagem.
Regarding the list you posted, how did you find the Blasters on your Reavers? Also, do you think the Splinter Cannons on the Warrior squads were worth it?
I like the blasters on the reavers, usually you are shooting them at -1 to hit since they advance turn 1 but it adds to them being something your opponent has to deal with quickly. Most games all the reavers are dead by turn 2 but thats what their job is. If they are left alive you have extra blasters to put wherever you want. If anything I am not sold on the grav-talons, a 4+ to do 1 mortal wound seems rather lackluster.
As for splinter cannons, absolutely worth it in raiders with splinter racks and kabal of the flayed skull. Even on foot you probably still take them, since now they only cost 10 pts so its not like you can take 2 warriors to make up the shots for the same points. The warriors in raiders consistently do the best in every game I play. I played lists with only 30 warriors and its honestly not as good imo. I start every list now with 40 warriors in raiders. Also giving them 2 blasters is such a big boon to DE, each of those warrior units is only 107 pts! For 20 splinter shoots, 2 blasters, and a phantasm grenade launcher for using torment grenade and giving -1 leadership buffs (which matter more than you might think!). Then in the raider they reroll 1's on the splinter weapons, ignore cover and get extra hits on 6's to hit.
I will say though that you have to really play the ranges with the raiders though, usually i find it is best to either keep myself exactly 12" away or if i can avoid rapid fires in return I'll even opt to shoot single shots with the splinter weapons (another benefit of the splinter cannon is that it has 36" range, meaning you can sit at 18" and shoot the blasters and 14 splinter shots)
I like the blasters on the reavers, usually you are shooting them at -1 to hit since they advance turn 1 but it adds to them being something your opponent has to deal with quickly. Most games all the reavers are dead by turn 2 but thats what their job is. If they are left alive you have extra blasters to put wherever you want. If anything I am not sold on the grav-talons, a 4+ to do 1 mortal wound seems rather lackluster.
Yeah, I can't say I've been all that impressed by Grav Talons. I think I'll be moving it to the 'something to buy if I have spare points' category in future.
As for splinter cannons, absolutely worth it in raiders with splinter racks and kabal of the flayed skull. Even on foot you probably still take them, since now they only cost 10 pts so its not like you can take 2 warriors to make up the shots for the same points.
Well, if you include the cost of the Warrior carrying it, that's 16pts. So for just 2pts more you can have the same number of shots plus 2 extra wounds.
I know there's limited transport space, but you can still put those points towards a different squad, for example.
Also, are you aware that Splinter Racks don't actually work on Splinter Cannons?
Quixeemoto wrote: The warriors in raiders consistently do the best in every game I play. I played lists with only 30 warriors and its honestly not as good imo. I start every list now with 40 warriors in raiders. Also giving them 2 blasters is such a big boon to DE, each of those warrior units is only 107 pts! For 20 splinter shoots, 2 blasters, and a phantasm grenade launcher for using torment grenade and giving -1 leadership buffs (which matter more than you might think!). Then in the raider they reroll 1's on the splinter weapons, ignore cover and get extra hits on 6's to hit.
Yeah, I'd always take Blasters on them. Interesting to hear that the PGL is useful as well. I might have to start using those.
I will say though that you have to really play the ranges with the raiders though, usually i find it is best to either keep myself exactly 12" away or if i can avoid rapid fires in return I'll even opt to shoot single shots with the splinter weapons (another benefit of the splinter cannon is that it has 36" range, meaning you can sit at 18" and shoot the blasters and 14 splinter shots)
Okay, I'll try to bear that in mind. Thanks.
Oh, one other thing - since you're using Flayed Skull, do you use the Obsidian Veil at all?
the way I run the warriors I always put them in transports so its basically "I have 40 warriors so 4 of them should have splinter cannons because im not going to have more". Huh, thats weird that they don't work on the splinter cannons but you are right.
I have been very tempted by the obsidian veil but only because every game I have played I have failed the shadowfield on the first roll! Also because i use the Djin blade i tend to ignore the veil.
So if you are running 3 raiders with kabalite warriors in them and 3 ravagers, then flayed skull seems like the most popular choice.
But if you arent running any ravagers, and are just running 3 raiders with warriors and a couple archons in a venom, would it be better or worse to take Poisoned Tongue?
Rerolling 1s to hit, or rerolling 1s to wound?
Other things to consider:
Soul-Seeker is a benefit to Poisoned Tongue
Destroyed Raiders, no flayed skull benefit, but warriors would still get Poisoned Tongue benefit.
The weapons on the raider rerolling 1s is a benefit to Flayed skull, but poisoned tongue doesnt do anything there.
Is one a clear winner in this situation or do you think it is pretty situational with which Obsession is better? Again the scenario is only for a detachment of 3 raiders, 30 warriors, and a couple archons in a venom.
Icculus wrote: So if you are running 3 raiders with kabalite warriors in them and 3 ravagers, then flayed skull seems like the most popular choice.
Just a point, but if you're running 3 Ravagers then the most popular choice seems to be to run them as a Spearhead with a Black Heart Archon with the Writ. This gives them a 6+++ save, let's them reroll 1s to wound, and gives you access to the Labyrinthine Cunning warlord trait and Agents of Vect stratagem.
But if you arent running any ravagers, and are just running 3 raiders with warriors and a couple archons in a venom, would it be better or worse to take Poisoned Tongue?
Rerolling 1s to hit, or rerolling 1s to wound?
Other things to consider:
Soul-Seeker is a benefit to Poisoned Tongue
Destroyed Raiders, no flayed skull benefit, but warriors would still get Poisoned Tongue benefit.
The weapons on the raider rerolling 1s is a benefit to Flayed skull, but poisoned tongue doesnt do anything there.
Is one a clear winner in this situation or do you think it is pretty situational with which Obsession is better? Again the scenario is only for a detachment of 3 raiders, 30 warriors, and a couple archons in a venom.
Well, rerolling 1s to hit and rerolling 1s to wound are mathematically identical. The important differences are:
- Rerolling 1s to hit synergises with Splinter Racks.
- Rerolling 1s to wound synergises with the Archon's aura.
- Rerolling 1s to wound synergises with the Lhamaean's Venom Blade.
- You get the rerolls to-wound in melee.
- You get the rerolls to-wound when disembarked.
- Of course, Flayed Skull also gives you Ignores Cover and +3" of movement when embarked. Ignores cover in particular is very useful for dealing with stuff like marines in cover, which will otherwise shrug off a lot of splinter fire.
- In terms of the Relics, I'd probably rank Soul Seeker higher. It has the longest range of the non-index weapons, and the ability to snipe characters without even needing LoS is a very interesting ability. The only disappointing aspect is that it doesn't synergise with the actual Poison Tongue ability, because apparently GW just really hates DE (literally no other race has this 'artefacts don't benefit from anything' rule). Anyway, Obsidian Veil is good for a defensive Archon, and could be useful with Soul Thirst to regain wounds.
- PT warlord trait is awful (though the Archon has 3 other great ones to pick from anyway), so FS wins that one.
- The PT stratagem is probably the better of the two.
I think it's quite tricky, to be honest. Flayed Skull is vastly better when you're actually embarked, but gives you nothing when you disembark (or when your transport is destroyed). Overall, I think the FS army-bonus is stronger, but Poison Tongue has better tricks with its relic and stratagem.
Yea flayed skull i think is better as an overall army choice. and vipoid is right that the popular choice is black heart for the ravagers to get access to vect and the reroll 1s to wound. I just personally like flayed skull better based on my own playstyle and experiences. Also it means you have to pay extra points for a third archon and you lose the detachment. I'd rather run 2 wych cult detachments.
When it comes to units not getting the benefits when they are out of the raiders, usually if more than one unit of warriors has been forced out of the raider they are about to die anyways. My strategy usually revolves around keeping the raiders alive as long as possible, every turn you can keep the warriors protected the better you will do i think
For the record, whilst I think Flayed Skull is probably a bit better overall, I still prefer Poison Tongue. I like the Soul Seeker for flavour reasons and I like having rerolls in melee and outside of transports.
Quixeemoto wrote: When it comes to units not getting the benefits when they are out of the raiders, usually if more than one unit of warriors has been forced out of the raider they are about to die anyways. My strategy usually revolves around keeping the raiders alive as long as possible, every turn you can keep the warriors protected the better you will do i think
See, my experience has actually been the opposite of this. My transports tend to die very quickly, especially the Raiders. However, once the Kabalites are disembarked, they generally just aim their guns at other, more threatening units (usually other transports).
In fact, I think every game I've played so far has involved me losing several transports early on and the Kabalites continuing on foot for several turns.
If you play with lots of vehicles the 6++ ignore wound from the Black Heart obsession can help.
It's basically the only buff from that obsession but the Black Heart kabal also gives access to a very good trait, relic for the archon and stratagem. If you like the court and want to play aggresively, for example with some red grief units, the kabal bonus becomes useful.
I am almost done assembling my Tantalus and I can't wait to use it in my Red Grief army. 32" and charge seems amazing.
It is a beautiful model but man is it a pain to put together. I'm working on magnetizing the sail and figuring some way to base it properly. It comes with a standard flying base in the kit, what a joke.
So my gf just got into de and she has a small collection of models and the codex (mind you shes never played a game in her life she basically rule of cooled everthing and i haven't touched de since 5th) so any tips on assembly for wargear ect kabals cults and the like would be greatly appreacaited.
alabamaheretic wrote: So my gf just got into de and she has a small collection of models and the codex (mind you shes never played a game in her life she basically rule of cooled everthing and i haven't touched de since 5th) so any tips on assembly for wargear ect kabals cults and the like would be greatly appreacaited.
So it looks like you are in need of a Succubus to really run the wych cult detachment. The only Coven unit you have is the Haemonculus. But I would go with 4 blasters on the 20 kabalite warriors. Make sure you have 4 of those warriors that could also be identified as being the Sybarite (the squad leader) in case you ever wanted to run them in squads of 5. For heavy weapons in the warriors, I would go with either splinter cannon or Dark Lance, I like the Dark Lance myself.
With the squad of hellions, I think you should always keep them in 10-strength or larger units, so I would only make one of them a Heliarch and give him either a stunclaw or agoniser.
For your next purchase I would look at getting a succubus and either another box of reavers, or a box of wyches and a raider.
I mean Hellions are definitely better now than they have been since the days of 2+Jink saves and The Baron Sathonyx.
But that being said, I don't think they are getting a lot of playtime. I would go with the stunclaw though for the chance of mortal wounds and it being consistent with the rest of the weapons.
well I don't think she'll be ready for tournys any time soon stuff and I'll be her main opponent so yea, I'd honestly rather her have a strong list so she feels like she has accomplished something instead of me rolling over her.
Stuff I have access to play against her Nightlords, unbuilt necrons (its just the 2016 starter box), mordian guard, and catachan guard.
Kelligula wrote: Has anyone had any success using Kabal of the Obsidian Rose? I'm planning on painting some Warriors in that scheme to run with my Black Heart boys.
Their best shtick in my experience seems to be the giant blob of 20 warriors dropping out of the sky, rapid firing stuff at 15" away (so you want shredders and splinter cannons to maximise the hurt there) and then using Fire and Fade to end up 7" away and over 24" from any viable threats.
Obrose also works pretty well out of venoms with the nice fact that everything they want to do is a little farther away from melee.
I like them (but then I'm lacking in Ravagers and Razorwings).
92pts for 5 Scourges with 4 Haywire Blasters seems like a really good deal, and I generally run 2 such units in all my lists.
Blasters are more versatile, but also much more expensive (not to mention being available elsewhere). Given their inherent fragility, I'd probably stick to Haywire for raw efficiency.
Kelligula wrote: Has anyone had any success using Kabal of the Obsidian Rose? I'm planning on painting some Warriors in that scheme to run with my Black Heart boys.
Their best shtick in my experience seems to be the giant blob of 20 warriors dropping out of the sky, rapid firing stuff at 15" away (so you want shredders and splinter cannons to maximise the hurt there) and then using Fire and Fade to end up 7" away and over 24" from any viable threats.
Obrose also works pretty well out of venoms with the nice fact that everything they want to do is a little farther away from melee.
That sounds badass. I'm going to try that as soon as I can!
TheMostWize wrote: Black Heart seems to be most efficient with the extra power from pain.
To be honest, PfP really doesn't do much for Kabal. The best aspects of Black Heart are probably the Agents of Vect stratagem, Labyrinthine Cunning Warlord Trait, Writ of the Living Muse, and 6+++ for vehicles (basically everything except the actual army bonus).
It's probably better as a small inclusion in a larger force - such as a Spearhead (with 3 Ravagers and an Archon) or an Air Wing (gives you access to Agents of Vect without needing a HQ).
So in a 10 man raider squad Dark Lance/Blaster I'm assuming.
Well, you'll probably want 2 Blasters (since they're now 1-per-5).
As for Dark Lances, that's up to you. I'm wary of spending 20pts when they'll be hitting on 4s whenever you move. Though, I guess if you're using Obsidian Rose you might be able to get into a good position on turn 1 and then not need to move afterwards. Still expensive, though.
Another possibility, and one that I'm very fond of, is to have 2 5-man Warrior squads in a Raider (each with a Blaster). It gives you more options (you can split the squads when they disembark, you can disembark one and leave the other inside etc.) and makes them a lot less vulnerable to leadership if/when they get out.
Seems like you could get an absurd amount of heavy fire power on the board with blasters and dark lances.
Absolutely.
the_scotsman wrote: Their best shtick in my experience seems to be the giant blob of 20 warriors dropping out of the sky, rapid firing stuff at 15" away (so you want shredders and splinter cannons to maximise the hurt there) and then using Fire and Fade to end up 7" away and over 24" from any viable threats.
I thought you weren't allowed to use Fire and Fade after deep striking?
Another possibility, and one that I'm very fond of, is to have 2 5-man Warrior squads in a Raider (each with a Blaster). It gives you more options (you can split the squads when they disembark, you can disembark one and leave the other inside etc.) and makes them a lot less vulnerable to leadership if/when they get out.
Can't believe I haven't thought of this you even potentially fill up a brigade fairly easily running them this way. Although it would men's running drazhar, still good for thought though.
Fantome wrote: Can't believe I haven't thought of this you even potentially fill up a brigade fairly easily running them this way. Although it would men's running drazhar, still good for thought though.
I'm pretty sure a Brigade only needs 3 HQs, so you could just use 3 Archons.
Solid, if just because of the massive ridiculous grotesque blobs that most armies won't be able to deal with. Nothing particularly exciting but those are all good units from the codex put into a list.
Is running multiple 10 man kalabite squads armed with a blaster, shredder and a splinter cannon mounted in a raider a viable Swiss army knife? Or should I just a stick to blasters?
Quixeemoto wrote: personally i like the blasters, i think de need the antivehicle/monster more than they need anti infantry
I guess I just thought having a mix could work too. If I'm taking two blasters per ten is there any disadvantage to just sticking with two units of five?
Quixeemoto wrote: personally i like the blasters, i think de need the antivehicle/monster more than they need anti infantry
I guess I just thought having a mix could work too. If I'm taking two blasters per ten is there any disadvantage to just sticking with two units of five?
The advantage to taking a 10-man squad is the inclusion of a heavy weapon. But two 5-man squads are good because you also get two Sybarites out of it, and can split up the group to go two different directions if needed.
Quixeemoto wrote: personally i like the blasters, i think de need the antivehicle/monster more than they need anti infantry
I guess I just thought having a mix could work too. If I'm taking two blasters per ten is there any disadvantage to just sticking with two units of five?
The advantage to taking a 10-man squad is the inclusion of a heavy weapon. But two 5-man squads are good because you also get two Sybarites out of it, and can split up the group to go two different directions if needed.
Would you recommend taking any of the heavy weapons though? Like I say i'm tempted by the cannon but it's lack of synergy with splinter racks makes it a little off putting.
Fantome wrote: Is running multiple 10 man kalabite squads armed with a blaster, shredder and a splinter cannon mounted in a raider a viable Swiss army knife? Or should I just a stick to blasters?
I think it's better to specialise where possible. You could try 2 Shredders for anti-infantry duty, but I don't think mixing weapons is a good idea.
Fantome wrote: Would you recommend taking any of the heavy weapons though? Like I say i'm tempted by the cannon but it's lack of synergy with splinter racks makes it a little off putting.
The thing for me is that I don't think poison shots are particularly great, so I'm not keen on paying for a few more of them. Especially since the squad can't really get any meaningful use out of the increased range of the Splinter Cannon.
The thing for me is that I don't think poison shots are particularly great, so I'm not keen on paying for a few more of them. Especially since the squad can't really get any meaningful use out of the increased range of the Splinter Cannon.
Thanks for the feedback. I kinda thought the same about the cannon tbh. Might try one squad with dual blasters and one with dual shredders and see how that works out.
Quixeemoto wrote: personally i like the blasters, i think de need the antivehicle/monster more than they need anti infantry
I guess I just thought having a mix could work too. If I'm taking two blasters per ten is there any disadvantage to just sticking with two units of five?
The advantage to taking a 10-man squad is the inclusion of a heavy weapon. But two 5-man squads are good because you also get two Sybarites out of it, and can split up the group to go two different directions if needed.
Splitting the squad could be a plus, but what does an extra Sybarite get you? One extra melee attack that, if you're needing it, means it has not Gone To Plan in the first place...?
Crispy78 wrote: Splitting the squad could be a plus, but what does an extra Sybarite get you? One extra melee attack that, if you're needing it, means it has not Gone To Plan in the first place...?
It does get you access to a second PGL, should you want one.
And to a second Blast Pistol, if you're the sort of person who likes playing with an unofficial handicap.
Crispy78 wrote: Splitting the squad could be a plus, but what does an extra Sybarite get you? One extra melee attack that, if you're needing it, means it has not Gone To Plan in the first place...?
It does get you access to a second PGL, should you want one.
And to a second Blast Pistol, if you're the sort of person who likes playing with an unofficial handicap.
An extra PGL could come handy. But splitting the squad could be a way to get 3 troops units for your battalion. If you were only going to bring 20 warriors in 2 raiders, you could have two units of 5 and one unit of 10. Although most Drukhari lists (mine included) go for the 3 patrol detachments.
An extra PGL could come handy. But splitting the squad could be a way to get 3 troops units for your battalion. If you were only going to bring 20 warriors in 2 raiders, you could have two units of 5 and one unit of 10.
You could, but since I never bother with heavy weapons, I'd just take 4 units of 5.
Icculus wrote: Although most Drukhari lists (mine included) go for the 3 patrol detachments.
Do they? I thought that this was rare even before the FAQ, and basically unheard of after it.
Icculus wrote: Fair enough, I guess I can't speak for the majority. But I've seen it run quite a few times and I use it.
I still like the concept, but it really should have been FAQd to give 6CP, to keep it in line with the Battalion.
As it stands, it requires 1 more HQ than a Battalion, but yields fewer CPs.
But then the entire detachment has to be all Wych Cult, all Kabal or All Coven.
By going with multiple patrol detachments, I can bring in all 3 with minimal troop tax. Or I could bring in two different obsessions of kabal and one detachment of Coven.
But then the entire detachment has to be all Wych Cult, all Kabal or All Coven.
Sure, but you're not limited to just 1 detachment. You can take, for example, a Kabal Battalion and then a Coven Vanguard or a Cult Outrider (either of which would get you +6CP in total).
By going with multiple patrol detachments, I can bring in all 3 with minimal troop tax. Or I could bring in two different obsessions of kabal and one detachment of Coven.
Incidentally, 'troop taxes' are the reason I like the Battalion option. You see, Kabalite Warriors are the only troops of ours that I actually like and want to use in any significant quantities. So once I've taken a Battalion of those, I can then add in a Coven Vanguard (for Grotesques) or a Cult Outrider (for Reavers) - both of which allow me to skip the Coven/Cult troop tax entirely.
then I guess battle scribe is broke cuase when I try to add a hw into a ten man squad it reads my squad as illegal… >.< I know that battlescibe isn't the most effective thing it was mostly for spitballing ideas around.
alabamaheretic wrote: then I guess battle scribe is broke cuase when I try to add a hw into a ten man squad it reads my squad as illegal… >.< I know that battlescibe isn't the most effective thing it was mostly for spitballing ideas around.
Wait, what 10 man squad? Warriors? Yeah my BS lets me add a heavy weapon, try updating it.
That’s just notation for the point cost of a Lhamaean. I just posted it because I thought taking 9 Venoms is inherently funny (not pictured: 3 Ravagers of course).
meleti wrote: That’s just notation for the point cost of a Lhamaean. I just posted it because I thought taking 9 Venoms is inherently funny (not pictured: 3 Ravagers of course).
meleti wrote: Spotted in an undefeated list at Dallas GT.
Yeah I'd be curious to see what the rest of the list was.
The formatting is a little unclear throughout, but:
Black Heart battalion
2 Archons (husk blades and PGL)
25 Warriors
Lhamaean
9 Venoms
3 Ravagers (dis)
Red Grief battalion
2 Succubi (glaives)
15 Wyches (shardnets)
Harlequin Veiled Path outrider
Shadowseer
6 Skyweavers (zephyrglaives and haywire)
Lol, that list came loaded for bear. What was the plan if they went up against a mechanized list? Weight of fire? Not familiar with Harlequins, so I don’t know what they bring.
Those Harlequin bikes are decent at killing vehicles, the Haywires can dish out some mortal wounds when shooting at vehicles. But yeah, blaster spam this ain’t.
Icculus wrote: Plus with the webway assault, the harlequin bikes can deepstrike. So even if you had first turn, you wouldnt be able to target them. Real tricky
Although it’s listed as a single unit of 6 skyweavers, it must actually be 3 units of 2 bikes each as it’s in an outrider detachment. That means you probably can’t hide all 6 bikes in reserve - at least 2 would need to start on the table, although that wouldn’t be too hard to fit behind some LOS blocking terrain.
I like the list, but would try to switch it a bit myself to fit in a single unit of Harlequins in a Starweaver with Fusion pistols. That would make the Shadowseer a bit more useful, as she could then Twilight Pathways the squad up the board to take out something big. I assume in the current list she is there primarily to provide DTW coverage and debuffs/smites. Not bad, but not really using the model to its fullest either. Obviously, this list went undefeated, so what do I know, I could be making it worse
Lol, that list came loaded for bear. What was the plan if they went up against a mechanized list? Weight of fire? Not familiar with Harlequins, so I don’t know what they bring.
6D6 haywire, plus Dissies rerolling 1s to hit/wound. Not sure if there are Blasters in the Kab squads or not. That's plenty.
If not, just charge vehicles with Venoms/Wyches/Raiders. so they can't shoot.
I was there at the GT, actually played my last game on the table next to this list. It was vs 180 Ork list with 180 boyz, 7 mek guns, 45 grots and some characters. He killed ALL the boyz, and still had stuff on the board.
He is also a really good player, new what secondaries to pick, how to use LoS and manuever to avoid his venoms getting shot. New his units really well, and he rolled fast.
It was crazy watching these guys. I fortunately didn't have to play it, but I don't know what could be done. I foresee a nerf in venoms, probably a point increase for sure.
So, of the court of the archon, which ones are the best. I haven't really studied them too much but am thinking about getting a lhameaen or medusae. but really which ones worthwhile and what are their major purposes besides being the sacrificial death if you happen to roll a 1 when your venom is destroyed?
Icculus wrote: So, of the court of the archon, which ones are the best. I haven't really studied them too much but am thinking about getting a lhameaen or medusae. but really which ones worthwhile and what are their major purposes besides being the sacrificial death if you happen to roll a 1 when your venom is destroyed?
A quick rundown:
Sslyth - These are a little like demi-Grotesques. They're not quite as tough or strong (though still T5 with 3 wounds and a 5++), but they carry Shardcarbines and can tank wounds for an Archon. Do note that they don't have PfP - so no hitting on 2s in melee and no rerolling charges.
They're okay, but quite expensive. And whether Archons even need a bodyguard unit is questionable.
Medusae - Suicidal pseudo-flamers who demand that an HQ accompany them in their suicide missions. For some reason, these do have PfP, even though they have no meaningful melee ability to speak of.
The thing is, their shooting ability really isn't impressive and the 9" range is terrible. And you're not allowed to increase it even with Obsidian Rose. What's more, it's not even a pistol. So once they fire their 9" range weapons, the enemy just has to lock them in melee and they're stuffed.
Ur-Ghuls - They get 6 S4 attacks on the charge... and that's about it. Like the Sslyth, they have a 5++ (though they're T3), but no PfP - which is very disappointing for a melee unit. Also, with no AP and just 1 damage, their attacks aren't even anything to write home about.
Lhamaeans - Glass cannons with (effectively) Poison 2+ melee weapons that deal a mortal wound to non-vehicles on a 4+ to wound. They do have PfP.
These are pretty good, with a unit of 3 frequently doing far more damage then the accompanying Archon.
Anyway, I rate Lhamaeans the highest, as those mortal wounds hurt so many units. Sslyth are close behind, having pretty good stats and being nice all-rounders, though also quite pricey. Medusae and Ur-Ghuls both seem pretty bad, certainly far worse than the other two.
I'd lean towards running 3 Lhamaeans with an expendable (i.e. not Warlord) Archon, and basically just ramming them into the hardest non-vehicle target in my opponent's army. If you manage this on turn 3, then you've got 6 attacks, hitting on 2s with rerolls and then (assuming Poison Tongue) wounding on 2s with rerolls (and any rolls of 4+ cause a Mortal Wound in addition to the regular damage). You're looking at about 3 Mortal wounds, 5-6 regular wounds, plus whatever the Archon does.
It is fun to have a venom full of archons. But I think having a few of the court would be pretty good as well. It seems like the medusae could be allright as supporting fire, but I do see your point about their range. It is extremely short.
Since the FAQ dropped, it seems like "Raiding Force" never comes into play. 1st, most organized events won't allow more than 3 detachments. 2nd, battalions are better than 3 patrols in both CP and number of units.
What do you all think needs to be done to make Raiding Force effective again since it's supposed to be unique to Drukhari?
Maybe instead of 3 patrols=4 command points, it could change it so that each patrol instead gives 3cp instead of the usual none. It will still ensure a place for battalions while giving patrols in Drukhari armies something unique. One issue I can forsee with this though is that in non-event play, someone could take advantage of spamming patrols. Maybe that can be corrected by making the final rule read as follows:
"Raiding Force- The first three patrols in a Drukhari army gives 3cp per patrol instead of the usual command bonus."
So is the consensus here that Drukhari are the strongest most op army ever in existence or is that just some folks being salty?
I don't play in a tournament setting at all, so cant really say anything about it, but at my lgs I play with and against Drukhari quite regularly and I've never thought "omg so op"
DE are strong, no doubt about it, but people are being far too salty.
The main issue is that DE require different tools to take down than other armies, and suddenly all those Lascannons are far less efficient.
Alexonian wrote: So is the consensus here that Drukhari are the strongest most op army ever in existence or is that just some folks being salty?
They're a strong army, certainly, but I think we have very few units that can really be considered overpowered.
Mostly, it seems like people refusing to adapt. Lascannons and such are worse against our vehicles, sure. But stuff like Heavy Bolters and Autocannons are much better. The problem is that people just want to spam Lascannons and then get annoyed when they don't work well against us.
Also, it's entirely possible that many people are salty about not being able to steamroll us anymore.
Alexonian wrote: So is the consensus here that Drukhari are the strongest most op army ever in existence or is that just some folks being salty?
I don't play in a tournament setting at all, so cant really say anything about it, but at my lgs I play with and against Drukhari quite regularly and I've never thought "omg so op"
No, that's just nonsense as per usual on dakka. Drukhari are really strong, and Drukhari/CWE or Drukhari/Harlequins are maybe the strongest faction in the game right now. But there's easily another 5-8 factions competing for tournament wins, and there's no runaway dominant faction that's taking up all the placements at weekly GTs/Opens right now.
Venoms are a bit undercosted for sure with the addition of Kabal obsessions. Coming from Index we needed either a major boost to splinter fire and its platforms, or a big cost reduction. We got both. Other than that? No major issues. Maybe make Dissies the same cost as Lances and then limit Agents of Vect to once per player turn.
It's just typical internet crying. Their netlist armies don't work, so during the meta adjustment period, there's a ton of bitching. That's just how it goes.
Chippen wrote: Venoms are a bit undercosted for sure with the addition of Kabal obsessions. Coming from Index we needed either a major boost to splinter fire and its platforms, or a big cost reduction. We got both. Other than that? No major issues. Maybe make Dissies the same cost as Lances and then limit Agents of Vect to once per player turn.
Really? Even with Obsessions, the Venom seems absolutely pathetic in terms of firepower.
Flayed Skull makes splinter about equal to bolters on Toughness 3, slightly better on T 4, and T5+ non vehicle it just gets better.
But that's me trying to remember analysis from when the obsessions were first put our on the community site. Could be off so feel free to run the comparison again.
Chippen wrote: Venoms are a bit undercosted for sure with the addition of Kabal obsessions. Coming from Index we needed either a major boost to splinter fire and its platforms, or a big cost reduction. We got both. Other than that? No major issues. Maybe make Dissies the same cost as Lances and then limit Agents of Vect to once per player turn.
Really? Even with Obsessions, the Venom seems absolutely pathetic in terms of firepower.
This ^, Venoms do almost no damage
And no Flayed Skull doesnt make them a bolter, they still always wounds on 4+, just b.c you can re-roll 1 doesnt make them a bolter, a bolter is S4, wounds on 3+ vs T3 and also can re-roll just like we can with auras, they also can hurt vehicles on a 5+ rather than a 6+.
Venoms are strong b.c they can get objectives and move fast/charge to tie up units.
I said pretty close. 1 Splinter shot rerolling 1s is .26 wounds on GEQ, Bolter is .30. For 50 shots just for a bigger picture comparison, 50 Splinter shots rerolling 1s will do 12.96 wounds on GEQ, while 50 bolter shots will do 14.81. Pretty close when before the Codex when Splinter was both overcosted for the damage we did against infantry as well as underpowered.
With obsessions splinter is better than Bolters against T4 infantry.
I should have specified anti-infantry, that's where I was coming from with previous comment.
Chippen wrote: I said pretty close. 1 Splinter shot rerolling 1s is .26 wounds on GEQ, Bolter is .30. For 50 shots just for a bigger picture comparison, 50 Splinter shots rerolling 1s will do 12.96 wounds on GEQ, while 50 bolter shots will do 14.81. Pretty close when before the Codex when Splinter was both overcosted for the damage we did against infantry as well as underpowered.
With obsessions splinter is better than Bolters against T4 infantry.
And worse against T3 Infantry and vehicles with less than 8 Toughness.
Here's the thing, though, we're not talking about weapons on infantry - we're talking about weapons on vehicles. And a vehicle that is supposed to be a gunboat as much as a transport. Do you think Space Marines would still want to take Razorbacks if the only available weapons were Hurricane Bolters?
Chippen wrote: I said pretty close. 1 Splinter shot rerolling 1s is .26 wounds on GEQ, Bolter is .30. For 50 shots just for a bigger picture comparison, 50 Splinter shots rerolling 1s will do 12.96 wounds on GEQ, while 50 bolter shots will do 14.81. Pretty close when before the Codex when Splinter was both overcosted for the damage we did against infantry as well as underpowered.
With obsessions splinter is better than Bolters against T4 infantry.
And worse against T3 Infantry and vehicles with less than 8 Toughness.
Here's the thing, though, we're not talking about weapons on infantry - we're talking about weapons on vehicles. And a vehicle that is supposed to be a gunboat as much as a transport. Do you think Space Marines would still want to take Razorbacks if the only available weapons were Hurricane Bolters?
I don't think you can really ignore that Venoms are ferrying infantry, that's kind of the point of the model. People aren't generally running around with lots of empty Venoms.
I feel like i need more melee units but i also am planning on switching out the scourge for massive spams of kabalite warriors with half using shredders and half with blasters (mostly due to what i can field) and then giving them all dark lances as the heavy weapon option.
As far as melee goes i'm probably gonna add more reavers to my collection. Ugh i just wish 40k didn't cost so much money. It's hard to scrounge up enough cash to buy what i need esp. to keep up with an ever evolving meta.
meleti wrote: I don't think you can really ignore that Venoms are ferrying infantry, that's kind of the point of the model. People aren't generally running around with lots of empty Venoms.
I explicitly took its transport status into consideration. Hence why I compared it to another transport.
If you want an even closer comparison, how about Starweavers? They cost about 25-35pts more (depending on whether you count the Venom's extra Splinter Cannon, which would make for a closer comparison), but for that you get a better invulnerable save, better transport capacity (which is huge as it means you can put a character with a 5-man squad), better mobility, and vastly superior guns.
I'd be absolutely fine with Venoms going up to 99pts if it meant them having a 4++ save, automatic 6" Advance, 2 Shuriken Cannons (in place of their splinter weapons), and 6 capacity.
meleti wrote: I don't think you can really ignore that Venoms are ferrying infantry, that's kind of the point of the model. People aren't generally running around with lots of empty Venoms.
I explicitly took its transport status into consideration. Hence why I compared it to another transport.
If you want an even closer comparison, how about Starweavers? They cost about 25-35pts more (depending on whether you count the Venom's extra Splinter Cannon, which would make for a closer comparison), but for that you get a better invulnerable save, better transport capacity (which is huge as it means you can put a character with a 5-man squad), better mobility, and vastly superior guns.
I'd be absolutely fine with Venoms going up to 99pts if it meant them having a 4++ save, automatic 6" Advance, 2 Shuriken Cannons (in place of their splinter weapons), and 6 capacity.
What I mean is that you have to factor in the infantry guns because that's a big part of what the Venom does as an open-topped vehicle. In a lot of ways a barebones Venom is a ~95 point model with 7 splinter rifles and a splinter cannon. These guns are dakka instead of tank hunters, but it's not a negligible amount of firepower for its durability, speed, and cost.
I agree that Starweavers are indeed very similar to Venoms/Raiders. A bit less shooty and more assaulty, but that's Harlequins.
Razorbacks, though, are something else entirely. The squad isn't nearly as important to what they bring.
Just had a game playing mostly wych cults and found out how insane Leilith is at character killing. She killed a primaris chaplain in one turn, followed by killing a T5 buffed Primaris captain the turn after, both from full health.
Chippen wrote: Venoms are a bit undercosted for sure with the addition of Kabal obsessions. Coming from Index we needed either a major boost to splinter fire and its platforms, or a big cost reduction. We got both. Other than that? No major issues. Maybe make Dissies the same cost as Lances and then limit Agents of Vect to once per player turn.
Really? Even with Obsessions, the Venom seems absolutely pathetic in terms of firepower.
This and the fact that they just have a transport capacity of 5 dudes. So 1+ HQs or a 5 man squad. That's it. And poison is not as effective as S4 weapons.
65 points for that this is fair if not a bit too much, I'd rate venoms with a 6/10 or 6.5/10, definitely not undercosted.
Harlequins' starweaver is a very good transport and it costs 99 points. Better shooting, better transport capacity, way more resilient. The difference of 34 points is real, venoms can't get a points hike and cost like starweavers or very close to them.
Agents of Vect is another thing that is highly overrated as well IMHO, I usually play with 3 detachments including two battallions so 14 CPs plus additional 0-2 thanks to the Prophets of Flesh trait and some additional CPs generated by the Black Heart trait but I basically never used that stratagem more than a single time per game. Sometimes I don't even use it in the entire game. The stratagem is certainly useful but 3CPs are a lot and we have tons of other effetive stratagems, not to mention that 1CP per turn should be invested in getting a better result on a D6 damage weapon.
Venoms are ok for specific units. Those units would be incubi, archon's retinue (but not an archon) and trueborn.
Incubi are not so hot in only 5 man groups but if you spam em might be ok-ish. Trueborn are great.
My issue with venoms is that last game they died so easily vs shooting even with the -1 to hit on each of them and this was vs nids. Of course that's because he got first turn and sniped them immediately.
If i had to say the big boost to venoms actually more often will come from the fact they don't have anywhere near as big a profile as most of our vehicles (dunno why it has to be so big on most units) and therefore can hide behind buildings easier.
So I had a good bit of fun with my Red Grief yesterday. My tantalus was a blast to play with a 32" advance and even though it didn't really do too much, it did it's job by disrupting and delivering the payload of wyches and succubi deep into enemy lines. Reavers did their thing with disrupting shooting and giving the wyches time to get out and wipe up as well as some key shots from their blasters and killing things off in assaults with grav talons.
All in all, it was a speedy as hell list and was a blast to play.
So guys i've been finding my 3 venoms with trueborn get popped a lot rather quickly. They only have shredder trueborn but still it's rather obnoxious how easily they die. I heard you have to either spam them or take none of them.
I'm also unsure of what to use.
Any close combat units tend to move quickly, advance and then charge. The only things we have that can really out-run them are reavers and our flyers. Other than that the shoot and scoot or shoot-melee-scoot ability of our army seems to be at almost nothing. Perhaps i should have more melee units to prepare for the inevitable melee even if it'll end badly it may hold up the enemy a little.
As far as the Knights go i think i may or may not need haywire (freaking 4+ inv. saves) but the problem with that is haywire is mostly on scourge which die quickly and has a hard limit at 3 units due to the current rules. The thing though is most of the dark eldar stuff is very fragile so i should probably just go for alpha strike anyway even if a void raven would last longer.
Void ravens are also an interesting idea. They're harder to hurt (at least for dark eldar), void mines seem ok and void lances have good strength. Also they can't be held up in melee, they're really fast and non-flyer melee units can't even hurt them with melee.
Twelve inch range on the Shredder is a huge drawback, it pretty much guarantees that you're going to get charged (and Venoms 100% do not want to get charged) unless you've nuked everything nearby first. That tactic is actually what I'd recommend - use our mobility to try and focus fire on specific parts of the opponent's army, and make sure that it gets wiped out. Tricky if they clump up, though.
So new issues. I think the shredders are sort of ok but as i said we may need to either shoot long range for anti tank/anti monster or alpha strike the crap out of things. With deep strike at turn 2 this isn't super easy so i may have to gun-line and spam warriors for my anti tank. I could deep strike in some blaster warriors through the webway as well as deep strike blaster scourge but other than that i think the safest bet is going dark lance spam....again. At least dark lances are needed for anti tank and anti monster.
I am thinking the 3 units per unit card with DS nerf hurts us a ton and helps guard and others considerably more.
You know honestly i may just take dark lance scourge squads in the mean time with 10 man scourge teams. Blasters are fine but each squad will get absolutely destroyed in a turn and need to be DS'ed in (so you have to go turn 2) but dark lances should be able to hit from a distance and don't need DS turn one.
I have cult of strife with the triple whip and attack drugs. I get 9 attacks on the charge. With exploding 6s warlord trait. Last game she wiped a unit of 5 scurges in a round. But next round she ended up getting 21 hits on a talos (t3 exploding 5s and 6s) and did 1 wound (maube 2). Thats much more normal for her, double digit hits, but once the wounds and saves are done its only a couple wounds on the target.
I am thinking of going Red grief for the blood glave. I need to decide if its worth giving up 20 attacks (from the rest of the unit. 10 wytches 6 or 9 bikes.) for 4 strenght 6 d3 damahe hits. Advance and charge would have helped in 1 game out of the last 7. And it means I can wingover strike and still charge with my bikes (1 unit 6 or 9) but if I do that the spliter rifles don't fire and they should be in rapid fire range.
I agree about the weapon but to get iy I have to give up 15 or 20 attacks on my wytches and reavers combined. No there are a few circumstances that the advance and charge will be worth it on my reavers, so call that a draw. But its really not going to help the wytches.
So are 10 wytch attacks worth 4 (or 5) blood glave attacks.
Regale me with stories of what a bad bitch your succubus is.
Headlss wrote: I agree about the weapon but to get iy I have to give up 15 or 20 attacks on my wytches and reavers combined. No there are a few circumstances that the advance and charge will be worth it on my reavers, so call that a draw. But its really not going to help the wytches.
So are 10 wytch attacks worth 4 (or 5) blood glave attacks.
Regale me with stories of what a bad bitch your succubus is.
Well, for starters, I rarely ever bother with Wyches. Mostly I just have 3 units of Reavers plus a Succubus who was too stupid to bring her own Jetbike.
Hence, she instead rides in a Venom with an Archon and 3 Lhamaeans.
It was meant to be a suicide unit - something I could throw at a strong, non-vehicle unit in my opponent's army and hopefully do a lot of damage. Even if it dies, it's not a huge issue because my Warlord Archon is elsewhere, sniping characters with the Soul Seeker.
Anyway, the unit has been pretty damn effective and rarely ever dies (the only time it did was when I left out the Succubus). The Succubus' attacks are pretty nasty, especially when backed up by 3 Lhamaeans doing Mortal Wounds.
Headlss wrote: No warlord trait? A 3 up invul seems good for 1 cp. Or dubble drugs.
I might consider it if I was using Haemonculus Covens as well. However, for a character who's meant to be suicidal anyway, I don't think the 3++ is a good enough investment for a valuable command point.
Besides, she's survived well enough without it so far.
I've been enjoying running duel Cursed Blade Succubi one with the special whip one with net and impaler, trait and drugs dependent on match up. Though they and the whyches are often relegated to mop up duty on turn 2/3 once the grotesques and ravagers do their thing. I really want to try out Strife but I just don't see how its near as good as Blade or Grief.
Are you guys finding the wyches often overkill their opponent?
So, I'm going to be facing 2k of Death Guard at my LGS this Sunday. I have only faced them once before with my Sisters of Battle, and got murdered by Mortarion, Blight Drones and Poxwalkers. I have yet to face them with my Drukhari. I have no idea what my opponent will be bringing, save that it will be an "experimental" list.
Total CP: 13 (-1 for Alliance of Agony, -1 for extra relics, +d3 for Diabolic Soothsayer)
My idea is, chars join the Wych Raiders, Wych blob comes in by deep strike, everything else shoots up big nasty thigns while Wyches either tie up Daemon Princes, etc, or try to kill off hordes. My main questions are:
1. What's generally better vs Death Guard, disintegrators or lances?
2. Should I go with Red Grief on the Wyches instead, given that I included Jetbikes?
And...
3. Be brutally honest: how terrible is this list vs Death Guard? What does it need? Aside from a Black Heart Ravager detachment, as I am in dire need of a third Ravager if I want to be uber competitive.
Great report. Based on your game, I'm thinking that i should be thinning out the Poxies with firepower before finishing them off with Wyches, trying ro hunt down his characters where possible, and resorting to prayer vs the Bloat Drones.
I have NO idea what I'm going to do with the Reavers-- they honestly seem like a bad fit vs Death Guard. Maybe trade them and/or the Mandrakes for more Kabalites in a Raider or two? The problem is I dont have Scourges, don't have a 3rd Ravager and don't have enough blasters to run Trueborn...all of which would be very useful vs Death Guard and their crazily resilient monsters and vehicles.
Headlss wrote: Not my report, I'm the other guy in the conversation.
I love my Reavers. They take the heaviest casualties every game, but they tie something up and let the other units get in position.
Keep you big unit of wytches safe from shooting and see how your list does. You have more poison dice then he did.
You have 11 blaster,
30 discentrator (3×10)
34 splinters (×2 at close range)
Plus a few odds and ends, mandrakes and pistols.
You going to deep strike the 20 woman unit?
Yep. Part of it is I really want to test out Cursed Blade instead of the standard Red Grief, since I'll be getting rerolls to charge form turn 2 anyway, and besides which, the strength bonus should be helpful vs tough Nurgle stuff. Although I'm still potentially debating running Red Grief anyway, given that it would be better for my Reavers.
I run cult of strife. Every model gets an extra attack. I take drugs to gain the strenght. I have used the duble attack strategem twice to great effect, tripple hits on 6s (5s from turn 3) might be the best warlord trait.
That said I want to try out the other two.
Theres no money on the line is there? Run what you want not what you think is OMG THE BESTZ. Report back to Camorgha, let us know how it went.
I think nugle stuff is gross but I've recently conquered a coven, and they are always looking for new taxidermy projects. If you bring back any slaves I will buy 'em from you.
DSing a Wych blob is likely suicide. 50% chance to fail their charge with a command re-roll and they will not withstand any ranged attacks.
It also locks you out of Screaming Jets, which is really the only way DE have of protecting Ravagers etc on turn 1.
All that said, if you think it will be entertaining, then go for it
Has anyone had any luck with an (almost) entirely coven army?
Whenever I start adding coven detachments, I find myself just wanting to add more They feel a bit more nurgly, with very sturdy but heavy hitting units walking up the board. Those kinds of lists feel like they just want even more of the same, for target saturation. Faster gunboats or whatnot just feel like they would get shot down as the only more fragile targets.
'
Thinking something like
Urien
Heami
3x5 wracks
6x2 Grots
3x Talos
~1000 points.
Or dropping the wracks for just more grots or talos. Just march em up the board and watch the enemy weep. You could even do something silly like 1x Chronos, Urien, 3x7 Grots or Urien+9x Talos. Kinda inflexible but super sturdy.
I'm having a bit of a losing streak (probably 5 games now at least). My current gaming area has a lot of soup lists and i'm going 2nd in all but one of the games. I also admit i have been doing kill points in a few of these games so those would be auto-loss unless i probably tabled the enemy because we have so much MSU and are very fragile.
My last game would've been much closer but he got first blood and was first to 10 objective points so he got an extra 3 points which was a real shame. I feel like i could've won it though if i knew more and also card draws from maelstrom were a bit weird.
Just so you guys know my opponents one is a power gamer that had 4 knights plus guardsmen for CP spam, another had a custodes hero with guardsmen (to boost them to an eventual 3+ inv. save and yes it's possible on one unit) and a super heavy tank, another had mono nids but maxed genestealers (kill points i think) and the last had custodes and got some rules wrong (and possibly points wrong too and that was kill points).
Also the terrain for these maps wasn't the best so i'm thinking either mostly venoms, no vehicles or spammed vehicles is my only option. Vehicles just die too fast. It's become such a problem i'm thinking of eliminating all my ravagers because we can only have 3 tops and enemies prioritize them. Long ranged anti-tank isn't that hard to come by but long ranged anti infantry is considerably harder to find. That's why i've been taking big squads of dark lance scourge. At the very least it took multiple turns to eliminate them last game and they do damage even though my opponent was all infantry.
Lord of Nonsensical Crap wrote: So, I'm going to be facing 2k of Death Guard at my LGS this Sunday. I have only faced them once before with my Sisters of Battle, and got murdered by Mortarion, Blight Drones and Poxwalkers. I have yet to face them with my Drukhari. I have no idea what my opponent will be bringing, save that it will be an "experimental" list.
Total CP: 13 (-1 for Alliance of Agony, -1 for extra relics, +d3 for Diabolic Soothsayer)
My idea is, chars join the Wych Raiders, Wych blob comes in by deep strike, everything else shoots up big nasty thigns while Wyches either tie up Daemon Princes, etc, or try to kill off hordes. My main questions are:
1. What's generally better vs Death Guard, disintegrators or lances?
2. Should I go with Red Grief on the Wyches instead, given that I included Jetbikes?
And...
3. Be brutally honest: how terrible is this list vs Death Guard? What does it need? Aside from a Black Heart Ravager detachment, as I am in dire need of a third Ravager if I want to be uber competitive.
NURGLE DAEMONS BATTALION (I think...he had just 1 HQ, though, so I don't think that's right):
Herald of Nurgle- Curse of the Leper
4 Nurgling Swarms
4 Nurgling Swarms
4 Nurgling Swarms
4 Nurgling Swarms
DEATH GUARD SUPERHEAVY AUXILIARY DETACHMENT:
Mortarion- Plague Wind, Pestilential Vitality
We played one of the ITC missions, on a diagonal deployment on a table with sparse cover. I chose...I think it's Monster Hunter and Recon? He chose character-hunting and also Recon. I'll be honest, my memory is hazy, and I was essentially a casual player up against someone prepping for the ITC. I'm not going to write a proper batrep on this, partially because the details are hazy, and partly because, honestly, I'm kinda ashamed of how much of a dunce I played like. I'll just go over the most salient points:
-After some minor losses on turn 1, I pulled a refused flank and managed to pop one of his Plagueburst Crawlers with concentrated fire
-Thereafter, his return fire was mostly ineffectual, but he did manage to charge and kill my Razorwing with his Prince. In response, most of my stuff circled his Prince and rapid fired/zapped him down to one wound, before my lesser Archon charged and finished him off. This was actually a big mistake on my part: in having so much of my stuff circle around the Prince, I pretty much bunched everything up instead of using my natural mobility to spread out. This left me open, in the next turn, for Mortarion to swoop in, hit me with his AOE effect before multi-charging a lot of my units. From there things pretty much went downhill.
-I have no idea what the final score was, but he was ahead. I had killed 1 unit of Nurglings, 1 Plagueburst Crawler, his Herald, his Daemon Prince, and had taken Mortarion down to half wounds. In exchange, I had lost all my characters bar my lesser Archon and primary Succubus, 1 unit of Wyches, and all of my vehicles bar 1 Venom, 1 Raider and 1 Ravager.
-As a sour note, I had a choice of charging my warlord Archon into either a Plagueburst Crawler or the Deathshroud. I was going to be taking a crapton of flamer hits either way, so I charged the Deathshroud...and lost the shadow field to overwatch. I resolved that she was at least going to take a Terminator or two down with her Djinn Blade before she died...but instead, Cataphractii armour and DS saved everything, and then my poor Archon got scythed in return. New model syndrome strikes again, sadly. Here's that fateful moment (only picture I took of the game):
OBSERVATIONS:
-I brought my list expecting to deal with Poxwalker hordes (hence the Wych blob). In retrospect, I shoulder really have brought more Kabalites/firepower.
-I was surprised at how aggressive he was in moving forward with his Plagueburst Crawlers. I was expecting him to go for lascannon equivalents, not plaguespitters. Again, I really should have used my mobility to keep my distance.
-Nurglings are freaking tough! My Wyches just couldn't kill the buggers off when it mattered.
-The Wych horde came down on turn 2....and failed their charge on the Nurglings guarding an objective, as did the Mandrakes. When they did make it into a unit of Nurglings on turn 3, they had taken some losses, and only killed 2 bases and nearly killed a 3rd. Not nearly good enough. I think the whole deepstriking Wych blob experiment has failed.
-My Traitor's Embrace Succubus was terrible. She charged Mortarion, died horribly...and then rolled a 1 for her explosion damage. I used a command point reroll, got a 2...and then Mortarion saved one of the wounds anyway on Disgustingly Resilient. I had spent two whole command points and a character just to do 1 wound to Mortarion. -As mentioned above, I was an unpracticed, casual player against a guy practicing for ITC. The outcome felt like it was inevitable based ont that factor alone.
MISTAKES:
-I had my Reavers and Raider with Wyches, warlord Archon, Sslyth and sacrificial Succubus too far on the left flank, hoping for a first turn blitz. Instead I lost the roll off, lost all but 2 of the Reavers turn 1, lost the Raider (and the Wyches shortly thereafter), and spent almost the whole game trying to keep my Archon and Succubus out of harm's way. It was pathetic.
-As mentioned above, I was an idiot and didn't take full advantage of my mobility
-I initially forgot about the Flayed Skull ability to reroll 1s with my splinter rifles/cannons. This was pivotal, as I kept having my vehicles hug my Archon's reroll bubble instead.
WHAT WENT WELL, AT LEAST:
-My firepower was reliable and effective throughout the entire game, with my multiple blasters punching holes in his tanks and my massed splinter fire putting serious hurt on his Daemon Prince and Morty
-My number 2 Archon did better than my Djinn Blade-wielding warlord, killing off the Daemon Prince and even managing to tank wounds for a round from Mortarion
-My Mandrakes, even though they failed their charge when they arrived, were excellent at clearing away my opponent's backfield, killing off one unit of Nurglings with baleblasts and stabbing down the Nurgle Herald
RULES LESSONS:
-Up until now, i had always thought that overwatch worked like 7th ed, where you can have a unit charge in, eat up overwatch, and free another unit to charge in without penalty. Instead, as I learned, an enemy unit can overwatch as many times as it likes as long as it's not locked in combat. This became apparent when I charged the last two Reavers into one of his Plagueburst Crawlers, hoping to eat overwatch so some nearby Wyches could lock it in combat and deny its shooting for a bit. Nope, the Reavers died, and the Wyches soon followed suit.
RULES QUESTIONS
-Does the Helm of Spite have to be outside of a vehicle to work, or can it function from inside a transport?
-When rerolling charges, do you have to reroll all dice or can it just be one of them?
Lord of Nonsensical Crap wrote: RULES QUESTIONS
-Does the Helm of Spite have to be outside of a vehicle to work, or can it function from inside a transport?
-When rerolling charges, do you have to reroll all dice or can it just be one of them?
1) Models in transports are not considered to be on the table for gaming purposes, but Open topped is an exception to the rule for shooting. You cannot provide aura's or cast/deny powers out of a transport unless there is a special rule allowing you to do such an action.
2) If you have a rule that allows for the reroll of a chage, both dice must be rerolled. If you spend a command point to reroll, you may only reroll one die.
So what kind of things would you guys take vs a knight heavy list with guard support from basilisks or ad mech support? I have a tournament comeing up and our meta in the region is heavy knights at the moment. No forge world though. :(
Warriors and bikes. Load them all up with as many blasters as you can take. Shoot the blasters at the big guys and the splinters at the little guys.
Then set your fire support up in overwatch positions, and get out in the center and mix it up. Grap the initiative with something fast and choppy and keep his attention there. And calmly remove a couple of his models every time ypur fire base shoots. Then do something dynamic in the center with your choppy guys.
Haywire Blasters and Dissie cannons lol, ally in Skyweavers even, you can spend 1 CP to DS them if you think you willg o 2nd, for 1 CP to turn 1 advance them for 3++ if you think you will go 1st.
I dont have the option to ally in anything, only have dark eldar in this instance, but the warriors w/ blasters, dissie cannons, and haywire i can do same with bikes. Sounds good.
Honestly i'm not feeling it with reavers anymore. Am i alone in this? They take hits but the only point i see of them anymore is to grab objectives. That's pretty much it. They don't last very long and their melee is pretty crap. I realize their melee isn't too hot but every time i take them it feels like a waste of points. I was thinking DS'ing in grotesque through one way or another. Shredders are ok but i need something to hold up the enemy for a decent amount of time and reavers just don't do it at least by themselves.
I am never disappointed in Reavers. How many are you taking?
Sure they die but they eat fire power like nothing else we have.
I get usually 3 rounds of shooting with the blasters and 3, 4 or sometimes 5 turns of cc from them (counting enemy turns as well). They tie stuff up. They grab momentum and they distract from softer targets.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Honestly i'm not feeling it with reavers anymore. Am i alone in this? They take hits but the only point i see of them anymore is to grab objectives. That's pretty much it. They don't last very long and their melee is pretty crap. I realize their melee isn't too hot but every time i take them it feels like a waste of points. I was thinking DS'ing in grotesque through one way or another. Shredders are ok but i need something to hold up the enemy for a decent amount of time and reavers just don't do it at least by themselves.
I've used 3 units of 3, each with a Blaster and Grav Talon.
They would occasionally do work, but were very unreliable and died to a stiff breeze.
The fact that they have no meaningful save, even at range, makes them very fragile. Quite honestly, I don't think they have enough cannon to make up for their glass.
Also, a more minor point, but I still hate the drug mechanic. I wish we could just pick/roll for a drug and have it apply to every Cult unit. Having to keep track of different drugs on every single Wych unit is just irritating.
I run just one big unit of reavers. 9 bikes has a lot more staying power than 3. I also don't have any trouble remembering which drug they have, the reavers always have painbringer for +1toughness.
I ran a full squad of 12 vs imperial guard yesterday, got first turn and got into cc first turn with them. They didnt to a crazy amount of work, but they soaked up over half of his shooting and thanks to the -1 to hit strat i still had 5, 4 with blasters left beginning t2. Their job as a distraction worked great.
How do we protect out ravagers? At only t5 they seem like easy prey for heavy bolters. I only lost 8 wounds on one yesterday but thats because he got unlucky rolling his battle cannons vs them, 9 shots, 3 hits type stuff. Or is it too much to hope they can survive a round of being shot at?
I have also moved away from reavers, I think they are still solid but I have been gearing my army towards going second and in that scenario reavers are pretty close to worthless. Reavers main value is to give you a t1 charge to prevent something shooting you to death, which if you go second has already happened. In the games I played where I took reavers and went second they more often than not died before they even got to move because people knew what they did. Now I run 30 wyches on foot and a unit of 15 hellions in cult of the cursed blade instead.
Caveat, I think if you run like 15+ reavers they are still worth it, but running just 9 probably isnt enough at this point.
Ravagers you can deep strike with the stratagem so they get at least one turn of shooting, but also ravagers are t6, unlike raiders which are t5
Hey folks. I was considering collecting some Drukhari. I like the look of the wych cult models. I also quite like the Harlequin range. Would these two arms mesh reasonably well together?
I also somethings change it to a Brigade and Spearhead with 0 Transports, 3 Reapers and Haemi that are instead Dark Creed for Sniper
That sounds effective. Some of us can't buy forgeworld though. Not sure how talos last in this and i enjoy kabal to an extent but covens seem like a better thing to have than wych cults. A constant 4+ inv. save and higher toughness would always be preferred to only have those boosts in melee and with certain combat drug boosts.
Ideasweasel wrote: Hey folks. I was considering collecting some Drukhari. I like the look of the wych cult models. I also quite like the Harlequin range. Would these two arms mesh reasonably well together?
Has anyone tried such a thing?
Cheers
Yeah, Harlequins and Cults mesh reasonably well together, it's what I run usually mainly because I like it. It's not the strongest combo, but it can work and catches people off guard.
There is a couple ways that work for me, 1) Cults with a Harlequin Patrol, or 2) Harlequins with a Cult Battalion. In both cases Harlequins are doing the heavy lifting when it comes to anti-tank (Cults biggest weakness).
For #1, the Harlequin Patrol is usually Soaring Spite with a single Troupe packing fusion in a Starweaver, a 6 bike unit of Skyweavers, and maybe a Solitaire. HQ depends on points, Troupe Master is decent with the Starmist raiment and the Soaring Spite Warlord trait, Shadowseers give you more speed with Twilight Pathways, an ability to deny psychic powers, and puts out mortal Wounds. Either way it's a good supplement detatchment.
For #2 the Cult Battalion is usually 2 units of 5 Wyches in Venoms and one of 9 in a Raider. All with 1 shardnet/impaler. HQ is 2 succubus, one on foot with hypex, the other rides with the 9 Wyches. Then add in some Reavers if you have the points. It's a cheap way to add 5 cp to a Harlequin list and has good effectiveness in tying stuff up till your Harlequins can chew them up.
Just keep in mind that it's not the strongest pairing, the easier pairing for Harlequins is Kabal, with Ravagers and cheap Warrior blaster squads in Venoms. At least until Chapter Approved comes out and stuff gets adjusted. If a faction is very competitive and there is a unit that is maxed out and included in almost every list, like Ravagers, then it's a solid bet that they'll take a hit.
I also somethings change it to a Brigade and Spearhead with 0 Transports, 3 Reapers and Haemi that are instead Dark Creed for Sniper
That sounds effective. Some of us can't buy forgeworld though. Not sure how talos last in this and i enjoy kabal to an extent but covens seem like a better thing to have than wych cults. A constant 4+ inv. save and higher toughness would always be preferred to only have those boosts in melee and with certain combat drug boosts.
Random question - how useful do you find the Helm of Spite to be?
Azuza001 wrote: How do we protect out ravagers? At only t5 they seem like easy prey for heavy bolters. I only lost 8 wounds on one yesterday but thats because he got unlucky rolling his battle cannons vs them, 9 shots, 3 hits type stuff. Or is it too much to hope they can survive a round of being shot at?
Ravagers are actually T6, so Heavy Bolters should be wounding it on 5s.
That aside, I only use one, so when I need to protect it I'll generally just spend a CP to deep strike the thing. Means I'll always get at least one full turn of shooting with it.
Thing is, though, I'm not even sure it's worth the effort. My Ravager is usually decent, but it's never been particularly vital. In fact, the last time I used a CP to protect it, it just ended up feeling like a complete waste, as the thing barely did anything at all.
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: Random question - how useful do you find the Helm of Spite to be?
Azuza001 wrote: How do we protect out ravagers? At only t5 they seem like easy prey for heavy bolters. I only lost 8 wounds on one yesterday but thats because he got unlucky rolling his battle cannons vs them, 9 shots, 3 hits type stuff. Or is it too much to hope they can survive a round of being shot at?
Ravagers are actually T6, so Heavy Bolters should be wounding it on 5s.
That aside, I only use one, so when I need to protect it I'll generally just spend a CP to deep strike the thing. Means I'll always get at least one full turn of shooting with it.
Thing is, though, I'm not even sure it's worth the effort. My Ravager is usually decent, but it's never been particularly vital. In fact, the last time I used a CP to protect it, it just ended up feeling like a complete waste, as the thing barely did anything at all.
I thought he was saying take a unit of +1T Reavers to protect them
My bad, raiders are t5, ravagers are t6. I have been playing them wrong (not that it mattered, my opponents normally use heavy bolters on reavers and bigger stuff on the ravagers, and i am still winning, but the more i play the more they learn how to face me lol).
I like the deep strike idea, but that does seem like it could be a waste of points. Then again any stratagem can be a waste if it goes wrong.
Azuza001 wrote: How do we protect out ravagers? At only t5 they seem like easy prey for heavy bolters. I only lost 8 wounds on one yesterday but thats because he got unlucky rolling his battle cannons vs them, 9 shots, 3 hits type stuff. Or is it too much to hope they can survive a round of being shot at?
Ravagers are actually T6, so Heavy Bolters should be wounding it on 5s.
That aside, I only use one, so when I need to protect it I'll generally just spend a CP to deep strike the thing. Means I'll always get at least one full turn of shooting with it.
Thing is, though, I'm not even sure it's worth the effort. My Ravager is usually decent, but it's never been particularly vital. In fact, the last time I used a CP to protect it, it just ended up feeling like a complete waste, as the thing barely did anything at all.
You're not taking enough of them to notice how great they are. Ravagers are hands down one of our best units, especially the Disintegrator-equipped version; 27 shots will shred most things in the game when paired up with a Living Muse Archon or Doomseer.
You're not taking enough of them to notice how great they are.
If they were that great, I shouldn't need to take multiples of them for it to be evident. QED.
Burnage wrote: Ravagers are hands down one of our best units, especially the Disintegrator-equipped version; 27 shots will shred most things in the game when paired up with a Living Muse Archon or Doomseer.
So they're great . . . so long as you take three of them and then also pair them with an HQ from a specific Kabal and with a specific artefact, or else with a specific HQ from a different faction and with a specific psychic power.
Each to their own, but to my mind a "great" unit shouldn't need that level of investment to actually be good.
Dissie Ravagers are consistent and reliable, but they're rarely going to spike high in terms of damage. Thanks to how human psychology works it's very frequently going to feel like they're doing nothing (even though they're not!). When you run more of them, this steady stream of damage becomes clearer to see.
Additionally, synergising well with other units is absolutely something that can make a unit strong. It's not like an Archon is an added extra - you need one to run Ravagers anyway. Living Muse or Doom just make their damage even reliable.
All I'm saying is that there's a reason three Ravagers are a near-universal component of competitive Dark Eldar lists currently. It's not because they're our only heavy weapons platforms, it's because they're our best heavy weapons platforms.
Ideasweasel wrote: Hey folks. I was considering collecting some Drukhari. I like the look of the wych cult models. I also quite like the Harlequin range. Would these two arms mesh reasonably well together?
Has anyone tried such a thing?
Cheers
Yeah, Harlequins and Cults mesh reasonably well together, it's what I run usually mainly because I like it. It's not the strongest combo, but it can work and catches people off guard.
There is a couple ways that work for me, 1) Cults with a Harlequin Patrol, or 2) Harlequins with a Cult Battalion. In both cases Harlequins are doing the heavy lifting when it comes to anti-tank (Cults biggest weakness).
For #1, the Harlequin Patrol is usually Soaring Spite with a single Troupe packing fusion in a Starweaver, a 6 bike unit of Skyweavers, and maybe a Solitaire. HQ depends on points, Troupe Master is decent with the Starmist raiment and the Soaring Spite Warlord trait, Shadowseers give you more speed with Twilight Pathways, an ability to deny psychic powers, and puts out mortal Wounds. Either way it's a good supplement detatchment.
For #2 the Cult Battalion is usually 2 units of 5 Wyches in Venoms and one of 9 in a Raider. All with 1 shardnet/impaler. HQ is 2 succubus, one on foot with hypex, the other rides with the 9 Wyches. Then add in some Reavers if you have the points. It's a cheap way to add 5 cp to a Harlequin list and has good effectiveness in tying stuff up till your Harlequins can chew them up.
Just keep in mind that it's not the strongest pairing, the easier pairing for Harlequins is Kabal, with Ravagers and cheap Warrior blaster squads in Venoms. At least until Chapter Approved comes out and stuff gets adjusted. If a faction is very competitive and there is a unit that is maxed out and included in almost every list, like Ravagers, then it's a solid bet that they'll take a hit.
Cheers, yeah I’m keen to dip my toes into both factions and this seems like a good compromise. You’ve given me things to think about now
I must really be indecisive but i may want to have reavers again. Of course if i take them it'll only be in small units and not for fighting but for grabbing objectives in maelstrom missions. A 26" move (after advance) can get you a lot of places really quickly.
I was thinking no more than two units of 6 each. Of course i may be better off using those points for grotesques so we'll see. I'm waiting until the grotesques get back in stock though. I only have 4 right now but 8 sounds like a much better number.
The last thing i want to ask is can i charge a unit out of a raider that uses screaming jets? I heard somebody say no and it does seem to be no but it would be nice if someone would clarify. It might be worth it to take them with screaming jets anyway just due to target saturation forcing the opponent to shoot at everything in their face at once.
Sceaming jets is the wrong strategem for close combat. You dismount at the beginning of the movement phase and screaming jets come in at the end. So you have to wait a whole nother turn.
Headlss wrote: Sceaming jets is the wrong strategem for close combat. You dismount at the beginning of the movement phase and screaming jets come in at the end. So you have to wait a whole nother turn.
Web way deep strike if you you want attack.
That's what i thought but then my vehicles won't be safe. Guess i choose one or the other huh. I was thinking target saturation would prevent that being an issue but maybe not.
Headlss wrote: If you want to be safe cower in the metal boxes like a Marine. Or give up your deams of glory and join my Kabal, I can always use another scullion.
The issue is my trueborn in venoms would be shot down before they got to do anything probably. I am wondering if shredders are worth it anymore. The damage is good but i'm not sure how cost effective it is. Most of our shooting units only have about a turn to live (or at least in my meta). I think a lot of people are spamming anti-tank now that Knights are a thing and sadly that makes us want to take a lot less vehicles or saving them for 'screaming jets' so they don't all die at once.
I usually set up out of line of sight with most of my stuff. If I get first turn great, If I don't they end up shooting my jet bikes at long range, I'll overdose them for T6 amd maybe tell them to dodge for -1 to hit. They usually live long enough to get their charge.
Whats your table look like? Is there enough los blocking terrain?
Headlss wrote: Sceaming jets is the wrong strategem for close combat. You dismount at the beginning of the movement phase and screaming jets come in at the end. So you have to wait a whole nother turn.
Web way deep strike if you you want attack.
That's what i thought but then my vehicles won't be safe. Guess i choose one or the other huh. I was thinking target saturation would prevent that being an issue but maybe not.
Technically you disembark before the vehicle moves, not at the beginning of the movement phase.
Headlss wrote: If you want to be safe cower in the metal boxes like a Marine. Or give up your deams of glory and join my Kabal, I can always use another scullion.
The issue is my trueborn in venoms would be shot down before they got to do anything probably. I am wondering if shredders are worth it anymore. The damage is good but i'm not sure how cost effective it is. Most of our shooting units only have about a turn to live (or at least in my meta). I think a lot of people are spamming anti-tank now that Knights are a thing and sadly that makes us want to take a lot less vehicles or saving them for 'screaming jets' so they don't all die at once.
Well just get more, 10 venoms with 50 kabals is only 950pts, thats still 1k for Ravagers/Archons/Fliers
I'm thinking if i do reavers again for fighting it might be 'cult of strife' and then give them combat drugs +1 for +2 attacks total. Could be nice since they still have an ok charge range even without the advance and charge boost of red grief. That or i just go for grotesques.
I still think i'll go grotesques anyway but one more try with cult of strife reavers might be ok. It's probably stupid to try but why not.
I am thinking of trying mass Talos (9) with Prophets of flesh, I have used 3 of them with Urien a few times and it worked very well vs Guard with a Knight as support. They would be supported by Ravagers / Warrior Squads of the Black Heart. Anyone try this kind of list?
im not a De player but i would know why De didn't make the cut at BAO, they was a force to rekon with until IK's start showing in great number, are IK's which made De undeperform? thx for answering.
Manfried wrote:IMO 9 is too many. After you take 9 Talos, Urien, 3 Ravagers, 2 Archons, there is very little points available to warriors in venoms.
I have found 6 to be the sweet spot.
It can work and be fun, they are Fly and move 8, can move and fire as well so its not like they wont be in combat turn 2, they can also have Anti-Tank weapons, coming in at 98pts, taking a Urien with a Spearhead isnt to hard, you can even still have a BH Battalion for CP's and AoV strat.
blackmage wrote:im not a De player but i would know why De didn't make the cut at BAO, they was a force to rekon with until IK's start showing in great number, are IK's which made De undeperform? thx for answering.
They are very strong, but i think DE can still easly win, just needs to change how DE plays, ally Doomseer and JinkxLocks makes a huge difference. but over all IK book is IMO the strongest codex now, there are so many good things you can do with Imperial Allies, if they couldnt ally then it would be a middle tier army and well balanced.
IK has the 18" 3D6 crazy flamer, the ignore invul missile, Armigers (OMG so cheap lol), good melee knights now, etc.. they just need CP's and guard gives them that AND very cheap bodies.
They are very strong, but i think DE can still easly win, just needs to change how DE plays, ally Doomseer and JinkxLocks makes a huge difference. but over all IK book is IMO the strongest codex now, there are so many good things you can do with Imperial Allies, if they couldnt ally then it would be a middle tier army and well balanced.
In other words, Dark Eldar can't easily win, but Eldar Soup can.
They are very strong, but i think DE can still easly win, just needs to change how DE plays, ally Doomseer and JinkxLocks makes a huge difference. but over all IK book is IMO the strongest codex now, there are so many good things you can do with Imperial Allies, if they couldnt ally then it would be a middle tier army and well balanced.
In other words, Dark Eldar can't easily win, but Eldar Soup can.
This is 8th, everyone uses allies, if you are not then you are playing at a disadvantage, making 1 less save/invul and re-roll wounds is amazing.
If you want pure DE, then just take HWB's, they are cheap and easy to get 12-16 of them, can easily take out 1 knight in 1 turn with them and maybe some support. Doom with HWB's against a Knight can be nasty as well.
Edit: Also having Quins can be good too, making 2 Knights -1 or -2 to hit is really easy, just take 2 Shadowseers and 2x3 Skyweavers in Outrider, it could be more fun than Farseers/warlocks
If you want pure DE, then just take HWB's, they are cheap and easy to get 12-16 of them, can easily take out 1 knight in 1 turn with them and maybe some support. Doom with HWB's against a Knight can be nasty as well.
Edit: Also having Quins can be good too, making 2 Knights -1 or -2 to hit is really easy, just take 2 Shadowseers and 2x3 Skyweavers in Outrider, it could be more fun than Farseers/warlocks
I think it's quite telling that you mentioned one DE weapon and then immediately had to look to allies for support and for other anti-knight tech.
If you want pure DE, then just take HWB's, they are cheap and easy to get 12-16 of them, can easily take out 1 knight in 1 turn with them and maybe some support. Doom with HWB's against a Knight can be nasty as well.
Edit: Also having Quins can be good too, making 2 Knights -1 or -2 to hit is really easy, just take 2 Shadowseers and 2x3 Skyweavers in Outrider, it could be more fun than Farseers/warlocks
I think it's quite telling that you mentioned one DE weapon and then immediately had to look to allies for support and for other anti-knight tech.
Its a mechanic of the game now, and if you dont want to play with it then fine you are at the disadvantage, DE does fine vs most armies without soup, but DE has some major weakness, CWE and Quins can fill those weakness. Playing Pure doesnt matter anymore, stop being defensive about it, if you want to play pure thats up to you.
Remember my post was about fighting the top army right now, one that DE isnt best against (oddly we used to be and now we are not), we are talking about an army that is destroying most other armies atm and they kinda counter DE well, Melee doesnt really work against them and neither does out poison weapons, if we take our normal type of TAC list, a good 600pts will do nothing to them, even more so if you take extra Venoms/Melee units like some of these Venom spam players.
If you DONT want to ally in at all, then just take either enough DL/DC to kill them, or enough bodies to win via objectives like CSM players are, you really cant split your forces up to much against IK's, you must kill the one that will do the most damage to you 1st, if they are Armiger spaming then kill them 1 by 1, open up holes in their army aka safe spots for you to stay and move. If you are playing the need to take TAC, then remove a unit or 2 and add in a unit of 2 that can help handle IK's.
Question for DE players. My regular opponent is a master of eldar soup and last few games he's been making ravagers -1 to hit? Is there some rule they have or aura (including craftworld and harlies) that makes this happen as I can't find it in the book. Thanks!
buddha wrote: Question for DE players. My regular opponent is a master of eldar soup and last few games he's been making ravagers -1 to hit? Is there some rule they have or aura (including craftworld and harlies) that makes this happen as I can't find it in the book. Thanks!
Only 1 stratagem effects them in the DE book, Harlequins -1 to hit only effects Harlequins units (the 2 powers and stratagem) and the CWE ones again can only effect the CWE units.
Its easy to get 1 Ravager with -1 to hit, after that its impossible.
CWE can however let all friend units Re-roll wounds, make an enemy unit -1 to wound/ -t to hit and -1 to saves vs CWE and Friendly units, also enemy units dont get cover.
Harlequins can make up to -3 to hit via powers/stratagems for Harlequin units, and most units already have -1 to hit, so they can easily get up to -4 to hit. Same for CWE with Alaitoc.
buddha wrote: Question for DE players. My regular opponent is a master of eldar soup and last few games he's been making ravagers -1 to hit? Is there some rule they have or aura (including craftworld and harlies) that makes this happen as I can't find it in the book. Thanks!
Only 1 stratagem effects them in the DE book, Harlequins -1 to hit only effects Harlequins units (the 2 powers and stratagem) and the CWE ones again can only effect the CWE units.
Its easy to get 1 Ravager with -1 to hit, after that its impossible.
CWE can however let all friend units Re-roll wounds, make an enemy unit -1 to wound/ -t to hit and -1 to saves vs CWE and Friendly units, also enemy units dont get cover.
Harlequins can make up to -3 to hit via powers/stratagems for Harlequin units, and most units already have -1 to hit, so they can easily get up to -4 to hit. Same for CWE with Alaitoc.
They are very strong, but i think DE can still easly win, just needs to change how DE plays, ally Doomseer and JinkxLocks makes a huge difference. but over all IK book is IMO the strongest codex now, there are so many good things you can do with Imperial Allies, if they couldnt ally then it would be a middle tier army and well balanced.
In other words, Dark Eldar can't easily win, but Eldar Soup can.
This is 8th, everyone uses allies, if you are not then you are playing at a disadvantage, making 1 less save/invul and re-roll wounds is amazing.
If you want pure DE, then just take HWB's, they are cheap and easy to get 12-16 of them, can easily take out 1 knight in 1 turn with them and maybe some support. Doom with HWB's against a Knight can be nasty as well.
Edit: Also having Quins can be good too, making 2 Knights -1 or -2 to hit is really easy, just take 2 Shadowseers and 2x3 Skyweavers in Outrider, it could be more fun than Farseers/warlocks
Ugh a bunch of people at my store are doing Soup even if just a little here and there. I'm only going pure dark eldar. I think i need to come to an understanding with my opponents that if i don't play Soup then they shouldn't either.
Haywire blasters?! Yeah they're decent on every army except nids. The thing with them is they shine vs knights and maybe t8 vehicles or else something with invulnerable saves. My issue with them is if an opponent has no vehicles they kinda can't do much of anything. My 2nd last game was a pure infantry list with lots of anti-tank. Even my dark lances were not needed but haywire would've just been absolutely terrible.
I feel like if i did manage to do a Soup list (which i'd rather not do) i'd probably take harlequinns. Harleys aren't exactly a full army either in the way eldar or dark eldar are.
blackmage wrote: competitive lists are soup... hardly to see a top list made from just one codex, that happens very seldom, this is the direction GW wanted.
That's awful. Maybe that's why i was on such a losing streak. I was fighting quite a few soup players even if some were only limited soup. I'm actually pretty disgusted by this reality.
Haywire Blasters actually work completely fine as anti-infantry weapons. They're not great at it, but they're far better than they really have a right to be considering that they're meant to be specialist anti-vehicle weapons.
Burnage wrote: Haywire Blasters actually work completely fine as anti-infantry weapons. They're not great at it, but they're far better than they really have a right to be considering that they're meant to be specialist anti-vehicle weapons.
Yeah... I'm totally thinking of adding a unit of 4x HWB Scourge in my list. Probably a unit held in reserve for T2 deepstrike. ANd... they're totally not useless at infantry.
EDIT: question about the HWBs... do you roll a D3 for the # of shots for each equipped HWB model? Or, just roll one D3 for the unit, then multiply for each equipped model?
Yeah... I'm totally thinking of adding a unit of 4x HWB Scourge in my list. Probably a unit held in reserve for T2 deepstrike. ANd... they're totally not useless at infantry.
EDIT: question about the HWBs... do you roll a D3 for the # of shots for each equipped HWB model? Or, just roll one D3 for the unit, then multiply for each equipped model?
You roll a die for each model, so if you have a unit of 4x HWB with 1 Solarite, you'd roll 4D3.
Haywire Scourge are the hotness. You can get some good usage out of Fire and Fade, you drop them near a ruin, shoot, then Fire and Fade through the wall and they can't be touched. Take two of them IMO.
Against Tyranids, use them to kill the screens so you can tie up or get rid of the Hive Guard. Or counter-drop if they're doing some Genestealers turn 1 charge stuff. I've used them as a speed bump for Genestealers and not lost any sweat over it. Drop your Scourge 4 inches in front of whatever the Genestealers want to charge.
I've been toying with the idea of switching from a mixed kabal/coven list to a pure coven list. What is the community experience with running 6+ talos engines and grotesque blobs? at what point do you start to see diminishing returns?
Yeah... I'm totally thinking of adding a unit of 4x HWB Scourge in my list. Probably a unit held in reserve for T2 deepstrike. ANd... they're totally not useless at infantry.
EDIT: question about the HWBs... do you roll a D3 for the # of shots for each equipped HWB model? Or, just roll one D3 for the unit, then multiply for each equipped model?
You roll a die for each model, so if you have a unit of 4x HWB with 1 Solarite, you'd roll 4D3.
Haywire Scourge are the hotness. You can get some good usage out of Fire and Fade, you drop them near a ruin, shoot, then Fire and Fade through the wall and they can't be touched. Take two of them IMO.
Against Tyranids, use them to kill the screens so you can tie up or get rid of the Hive Guard. Or counter-drop if they're doing some Genestealers turn 1 charge stuff. I've used them as a speed bump for Genestealers and not lost any sweat over it. Drop your Scourge 4 inches in front of whatever the Genestealers want to charge.
hard in a normal table completely disappear from LOS and also then lot of no los weapons.
How is there an issue with nids as de? Take standard 10 man warrior squad, put a blaster in it and a splinter cannon, throw it in a raider, and enjoy. Poison weapons make nids cry. Oh, your t7 with that massive monster? My basic guys, which i have 60 of, hit on 3's and wound on 4's... and was cheaper.
Personally i love de at this point. Everything has a use, and everything seems so cheap. I never care when i lose stuff because it was cheap and i have more. Also you killed my ravagers? Lovely... you didnt shoot those talos and scourges and bikes and raiders with warriors....
blackmage wrote: im not a De player but i would know why De didn't make the cut at BAO, they was a force to rekon with until IK's start showing in great number, are IK's which made De undeperform? thx for answering.
All one needs to do is read through the ITC champions missions and you will understand why Knights are dominating. The missions are so unbalanced. Everything is titled toward killing things each turn and worse yet, killing MORE then your opponent for bonus points. This makes MSU armies weak, and armies with 4-6 large knights incredibly busted. If DE draw a 6 knight list they basically auto lose unless they are playing a terrible opponent that clocks out somehow.
The other factor is how armies are classified in ITC, because so many people soup it up, unless DE are the larger detachment the army won't be considered of that faction. If I heard correctly their were alot of armies that had craftworld eldar with a kabal spearhead for example in order to unlock ravager spam and Agents of Vect.
Mostly it's the missions though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vindicare0412 wrote: I've been toying with the idea of switching from a mixed kabal/coven list to a pure coven list. What is the community experience with running 6+ talos engines and grotesque blobs? at what point do you start to see diminishing returns?
I own 22 grots and 5 talos total plus 30 wrack in case the ever stop sucking lol.
Found immense success with them combined with kabal but less so pure. Against certain matchups going all in on prophets of flesh will straight up troll them, just murderize them but the issue comes once you start drawing fast armies that also fly. Especially the mirror match, venom spam for example will flat out table a coven army. It's too easy to run a small 5 man kabal unit in front of your advance to movement block and just keep shooting turn after turn.
That said, depending on your meta a pure coven list can be quite the foil. In the end you will have more fun however if you pick two styles. Generally Kabal is the perfect mate since cult does the same stuff as coven but frankly worse. Cult get speed at the cost of punch and durability which isn't worth it. Coven really need the range support. You can always supplement that with scourge mandrakes and FW however. But those units are expensive and you want cheap objective grabbers. Kabalytes are the cheapest.
blackmage wrote: im not a De player but i would know why De didn't make the cut at BAO, they was a force to rekon with until IK's start showing in great number, are IK's which made De undeperform? thx for answering.
All one needs to do is read through the ITC champions missions and you will understand why Knights are dominating. The missions are so unbalanced. Everything is titled toward killing things each turn and worse yet, killing MORE then your opponent for bonus points. This makes MSU armies weak, and armies with 4-6 large knights incredibly busted. If DE draw a 6 knight list they basically auto lose unless they are playing a terrible opponent that clocks out somehow.
The other factor is how armies are classified in ITC, because so many people soup it up, unless DE are the larger detachment the army won't be considered of that faction. If I heard correctly their were alot of armies that had craftworld eldar with a kabal spearhead for example in order to unlock ravager spam and Agents of Vect.
Mostly it's the missions though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vindicare0412 wrote: I've been toying with the idea of switching from a mixed kabal/coven list to a pure coven list. What is the community experience with running 6+ talos engines and grotesque blobs? at what point do you start to see diminishing returns?
I own 22 grots and 5 talos total plus 30 wrack in case the ever stop sucking lol.
Found immense success with them combined with kabal but less so pure. Against certain matchups going all in on prophets of flesh will straight up troll them, just murderize them but the issue comes once you start drawing fast armies that also fly. Especially the mirror match, venom spam for example will flat out table a coven army. It's too easy to run a small 5 man kabal unit in front of your advance to movement block and just keep shooting turn after turn.
That said, depending on your meta a pure coven list can be quite the foil. In the end you will have more fun however if you pick two styles. Generally Kabal is the perfect mate since cult does the same stuff as coven but frankly worse. Cult get speed at the cost of punch and durability which isn't worth it. Coven really need the range support. You can always supplement that with scourge mandrakes and FW however. But those units are expensive and you want cheap objective grabbers. Kabalytes are the cheapest.
I keep talking about Missions lists as well, the more we talk about it, hopefully the more people understand how tilted tournaments really are, they completely kill many types of lists and favour other types. Tournaments are NOT balanced, GW's CA/Main missions IMO are more balanced than many of these tournaments (tho local meta's you can do 5-6 turns thats a big part of it) some armies are better late game, and other better mid, while some are best early game, due to time restrictions, some armies and armies styles cant even be played.
Also, i love coven, i play them a lot, my Local they are leaps and bounds better than Venom spam. I have done Pure Coven armies (Dark Creed Supreme with Reapers and PoF for the other 1600pts) the Reapers able to snipe is just insane, and stopping units from Advancing is game changing, Late game when you need an objective (or just turn 2-3 for Mid game objective missions) stopping Advancements on 2-3 units has won me the game.
Would harlequinns be a good thing to combine with dark eldar? I don't want to do eldar with dark eldar but if everybody's doing soup i may think about harlequinns since they're not a full army anyway and their aesthetic is sorta like dark eldar anyway.
blackmage wrote: im not a De player but i would know why De didn't make the cut at BAO, they was a force to rekon with until IK's start showing in great number, are IK's which made De undeperform? thx for answering.
All one needs to do is read through the ITC champions missions and you will understand why Knights are dominating. The missions are so unbalanced. Everything is titled toward killing things each turn and worse yet, killing MORE then your opponent for bonus points. This makes MSU armies weak, and armies with 4-6 large knights incredibly busted. If DE draw a 6 knight list they basically auto lose unless they are playing a terrible opponent that clocks out somehow.
The other factor is how armies are classified in ITC, because so many people soup it up, unless DE are the larger detachment the army won't be considered of that faction. If I heard correctly their were alot of armies that had craftworld eldar with a kabal spearhead for example in order to unlock ravager spam and Agents of Vect.
Mostly it's the missions though.
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vindicare0412 wrote: I've been toying with the idea of switching from a mixed kabal/coven list to a pure coven list. What is the community experience with running 6+ talos engines and grotesque blobs? at what point do you start to see diminishing returns?
I own 22 grots and 5 talos total plus 30 wrack in case the ever stop sucking lol.
Found immense success with them combined with kabal but less so pure. Against certain matchups going all in on prophets of flesh will straight up troll them, just murderize them but the issue comes once you start drawing fast armies that also fly. Especially the mirror match, venom spam for example will flat out table a coven army. It's too easy to run a small 5 man kabal unit in front of your advance to movement block and just keep shooting turn after turn.
That said, depending on your meta a pure coven list can be quite the foil. In the end you will have more fun however if you pick two styles. Generally Kabal is the perfect mate since cult does the same stuff as coven but frankly worse. Cult get speed at the cost of punch and durability which isn't worth it. Coven really need the range support. You can always supplement that with scourge mandrakes and FW however. But those units are expensive and you want cheap objective grabbers. Kabalytes are the cheapest.
I keep talking about Missions lists as well, the more we talk about it, hopefully the more people understand how tilted tournaments really are, they completely kill many types of lists and favour other types. Tournaments are NOT balanced, GW's CA/Main missions IMO are more balanced than many of these tournaments (tho local meta's you can do 5-6 turns thats a big part of it) some armies are better late game, and other better mid, while some are best early game, due to time restrictions, some armies and armies styles cant even be played.
Also, i love coven, i play them a lot, my Local they are leaps and bounds better than Venom spam. I have done Pure Coven armies (Dark Creed Supreme with Reapers and PoF for the other 1600pts) the Reapers able to snipe is just insane, and stopping units from Advancing is game changing, Late game when you need an objective (or just turn 2-3 for Mid game objective missions) stopping Advancements on 2-3 units has won me the game.
Yea I have felt the same. The missions in 8th and especially in chapter approved are actually very balanced. I still prefer eternal war over maelstrom due to the random draw issues. But having played ITC I get super annoyed with how much the missions dictate which factions, style and lists will even do well before you ever drop a model on the table. They had good reason to make their own missons 5 years ago, but now I feel like pride or some sense of tradition is clouding their heads a bit. They seriously should just run the eternal war missions from chapter approved (maelstrom sucks)
I would not go as far as to say malestorm sucks, i enjoy it a lot when we are talking about friendly games as it can really force a player to take both speed units for quick capturing of random objectives / stationary hold units for grabbing objectives early and holding onto them to make life difficult for your opponent / and other units that may not be as useful in a serious setting (one of my favorite tricks is to drop an empty drop pod on an objective just to make my opponents life miserable because who wants to waste shots on an empty drop pod but its on an objective so... damn it...)
BUT thats friendly games. Serious Tournament games it has no place, and i totally agree that the current GW missions do well for the most part. I prefer constant scoring on those missions though, if you score at the end of every battle round going 2nd can be advantageous, as can taking a strong lead early on then getting tabled. When tabled the game ends, but you dont necessarily lose. If your ahead on VP when the game ends you win. If your going 2nd you have the opportunity to push your opponent off objectives before they score, but you dont have such a weakness. When the scoring happens only in the last turn these things can either not matter (i tabled you in the 2nd round so i win because you cant score) or become almost a non issue (you only have 1 squad of 6 guardsman left, i have half my army, guess you cant get me off of everything can you at this point?).
I had a game with my DE recently vs Guard, i won but due to him going 2nd and the scoring at the end of every round he was ahead at the end of the 4th round by 4 VP. I has only lost about 55% of my force, but he was down to 2 mortar teams and 3 command squads with sniper rifles, nothing my units really had to fear. Still, i only won by 2VP at the end of the 5th.
Very broad question. First you need to decide what part of DE you want to focus on. Ravagers, Razorwings raiders and venoms are all popular. Grotesques are great if you want to go that route.
I'm willing to start a 1500 points drukhari force. Could you please give me some advice on which units should I buy? (Competitive)
Thanks
The Kabal subfaction is most likely the best places to start (Cults and Covens are good to but take some learning)
Starting out I'd say;
A couple of Archons, your basic box of tricks HQ Two or Three Ravagers, essentially the DE 'tank', possibly undercosted with fine dakka choices
One or Two Razorwing Jet Fighters, arguably the best flyer in 8th
A fair number of Kabalites (20-30Ish), criminally underpointed grunts with lots of weapon choices
Sufficient Raiders or Venoms to protect and transport your Kabalites
I'm starting to look into Coven units to supplement a conversion project I've begun and wondered - is there any point going anything other than Prophets of Flesh with Urien buffing the bejeezus out of everything? Or am I missing something stupidly obvious?
My wife and i will start with Eldar for 2vs2 games against a imperial Soup with most IG. I like Drukhari and she the Craftworlds. Now i saw here that i have to choose a subfraction before i order models. Isnt it possible to play all models from Drukhari together in one Team? Or is there a Rule for detatchments for this subfractions?
Meow wrote: My wife and i will start with Eldar for 2vs2 games against a imperial Soup with most IG. I like Drukhari and she the Craftworlds. Now i saw here that i have to choose a subfraction before i order models. Isnt it possible to play all models from Drukhari together in one Team? Or is there a Rule for detatchments for this subfractions?
You can play Covens, Kabals and Cults in the same army, you just need to have them in separate detachments.
Sterling191 wrote: I'm starting to look into Coven units to supplement a conversion project I've begun and wondered - is there any point going anything other than Prophets of Flesh with Urien buffing the bejeezus out of everything? Or am I missing something stupidly obvious?
Beside cheese-tastic Dark Creed Tantalus antics Prophets is probaly the best, make Talos, Grots and Wrack fantastically resilient (well by Eldar standards)
Sterling191 wrote: I'm starting to look into Coven units to supplement a conversion project I've begun and wondered - is there any point going anything other than Prophets of Flesh with Urien buffing the bejeezus out of everything? Or am I missing something stupidly obvious?
I've just played a tournament last weekend with just a small Prophet of Flesh detachment with 3 taloi and an heamy (rest of my army was the usual kabal list). I simple ran the Taloi as fast as possible and they were golden for me. The taloi being T6 (7 if near heamy) with 3+ armour and 4+ FnP... highly, highly disruptive units. My opponents, almost in every case, were trying to shoot at my Ravagers and were surprised at how hard taloi hits.
Beside cheese-tastic Dark Creed Tantalus antics Prophets is probaly the best, make Talos, Grots and Wrack fantastically resilient (well by Eldar standards)
Yeah the murder catamaran is well outside my investment range (both in points and coin) for what I'm looking to do. Thanks.
Sterling191 wrote: I'm starting to look into Coven units to supplement a conversion project I've begun and wondered - is there any point going anything other than Prophets of Flesh with Urien buffing the bejeezus out of everything? Or am I missing something stupidly obvious?
I've just played a tournament last weekend with just a small Prophet of Flesh detachment with 3 taloi and an heamy (rest of my army was the usual kabal list). I simple ran the Taloi as fast as possible and they were golden for me. The taloi being T6 (7 if near heamy) with 3+ armour and 4+ FnP... highly, highly disruptive units. My opponents, almost in every case, were trying to shoot at my Ravagers and were surprised at how hard taloi hits.
Punching as hard as bright/dark lances on a flying platform with T7 and a straight up 50% chance of shrugging of anything that gets through (plus PfP) is part of why I'm looking going this direction.
Plan is to run two Taloi, a Grot team, plus two MSU Wrack pods with Urien (also a pair of Haywire Scourge teams) as support for a mobile Craftworld gunline.
High everyone - i'm looking at starting DE. I don't want to really soup in Eldar, as i generally prefer "mono" faction forces, and I could use some help / advice getting started.
I have a lot of experience in competitive play, and I know DE are good, but that's not entirely why i'm picking them, I also like the concept and all that jazz, and I have a very good idea for how to paint them (I have discovered a love of airbrushing so that is also part of it).
So, i'm not chasing the meta here, just starting a force i've had my eye on for some time. It also helps that I have been getting my teeth kicked in by knights standing back up and would love to just laugh as i vect away their dreams.
All that said, i'm looking at essentially making a list that takes advantage of very good transports, vehicles, and troops that DE have to offer.
Heavy Support Ravager (3x Disintigrator Cannon) Ravager (3x Disintigrator Cannon) Ravager (3x Disintigrator Cannon)
Transport 3x Raider (Disintigrator) 3x Venom (Splinter Cannon)
Of course taking one detachment might be stupid, because you have to be Kabal of the Black Heart. Double battalion is probably far superior. Anyway, some advice would be handy
Emeraldw wrote: Foot slogging. Does the extra work the units perform outweigh the loss of mobility?
I think the difficulty will be in supporting them.
If you want 120 Kabalites, then you're looking at one of the following:
1) A Brigade with 12 units of 10.
2) A Battalion with 6 units of 20.
3) Two Battalions, each with 6 units of 10.
#1 Is going to be very expensive (You're looking at ~2400pts minimum).
#2 Is probably the easiest in terms of list building, but will be unwieldy on the table and extremely vulnerable to morale. Might have potential with Obsidian Rose.
#3 Requires you to take the festering pile of crap known as Drazhar, or else lose your Kabal bonus for one of the battalions.
If the 120 models is supposed to be Kabalites and other units as well, then you could take a Kabal Battalion (6 units of 10) and then add a Patrol (3 more squads of 10), and then also add a Coven or Wych Patrol/Battalion, which will probably be the best option.
The thing is, though, you've got very little support. The reroll 1s aura from the Archons really don't compare to the infantry buffs available to armies like Guard or Orks. Stratagems might help, but I think you'll definitely miss the 'free' (in terms of CPs) toolbox of Orders or such.
I think it could be fun, but I'd be wary of buying models for this army without first testing it with proxies or such.
Marmatag wrote: High everyone - i'm looking at starting DE. I don't want to really soup in Eldar, as i generally prefer "mono" faction forces, and I could use some help / advice getting started.
I have a lot of experience in competitive play, and I know DE are good, but that's not entirely why i'm picking them, I also like the concept and all that jazz, and I have a very good idea for how to paint them (I have discovered a love of airbrushing so that is also part of it).
So, i'm not chasing the meta here, just starting a force i've had my eye on for some time. It also helps that I have been getting my teeth kicked in by knights standing back up and would love to just laugh as i vect away their dreams.
All that said, i'm looking at essentially making a list that takes advantage of very good transports, vehicles, and troops that DE have to offer.
Heavy Support
Ravager (3x Disintigrator Cannon)
Ravager (3x Disintigrator Cannon)
Ravager (3x Disintigrator Cannon)
Transport
3x Raider (Disintigrator)
3x Venom (Splinter Cannon)
Of course taking one detachment might be stupid, because you have to be Kabal of the Black Heart. Double battalion is probably far superior. Anyway, some advice would be handy
Thanks folks
Hey and welcome to the Dark Side. Enjoy your complimentary cookies.
Your list looks mostly solid, but I've got a few suggestions:
1) I'd strongly advise against taking a Haemonculus or Grotesques. If you take either of those, then you won't be able to get a Kabal bonus for your list (nor a Coven one).
2) Drazhar is a pretty dreadful HQ, even by the standards of Dark Eldar. His Incubi buff is worthless after just a couple of turns and he's barely better than a Klaivex but costs about 6 times as much. If you're just taking him to make your HQ section less monotonous, then I can understand that. I just feel I should let you know so that you're hopefully not too disappointed with him.
3) Splinter Cannons are pretty worthless on Scourges. You might as well just use the basic Shardcarbine and have twice as many bodies (and the same number of shots at 18") for about the same cost.
4) One thing I'm noticing is that you don't seem to have enough transports. If the 6 Kabalites go in the 3 Raiders and the 3 Incubi go in the 3 Venoms, then where are your HQs going? Unless one of your squads is deep striking, you might want to add in another Venom or Raider for your HQs to ride in.
5) Very minor point, but you could try using Dark Lances on one of your Ravagers or on your Raiders so that you can compare them to Disintegrators and see if you want to have more of one or the other. Entirely up to you.
6) Another optional thing, but Mandrakes are pretty good at the moment and can deep strike. I mention this because, if you're short on points, you could replace a unit of Incubi with a unit of Mandrakes and use the leftover transport for your HQs.
Marmatag wrote: High everyone - i'm looking at starting DE. I don't want to really soup in Eldar, as i generally prefer "mono" faction forces, and I could use some help / advice getting started.
I have a lot of experience in competitive play, and I know DE are good, but that's not entirely why i'm picking them, I also like the concept and all that jazz, and I have a very good idea for how to paint them (I have discovered a love of airbrushing so that is also part of it).
So, i'm not chasing the meta here, just starting a force i've had my eye on for some time. It also helps that I have been getting my teeth kicked in by knights standing back up and would love to just laugh as i vect away their dreams.
All that said, i'm looking at essentially making a list that takes advantage of very good transports, vehicles, and troops that DE have to offer.
Heavy Support Ravager (3x Disintigrator Cannon) Ravager (3x Disintigrator Cannon) Ravager (3x Disintigrator Cannon)
Transport 3x Raider (Disintigrator) 3x Venom (Splinter Cannon)
Of course taking one detachment might be stupid, because you have to be Kabal of the Black Heart. Double battalion is probably far superior. Anyway, some advice would be handy
Thanks folks
Hey and welcome to the Dark Side. Enjoy your complimentary cookies.
Your list looks mostly solid, but I've got a few suggestions:
1) I'd strongly advise against taking a Haemonculus or Grotesques. If you take either of those, then you won't be able to get a Kabal bonus for your list (nor a Coven one).
2) Drazhar is a pretty dreadful HQ, even by the standards of Dark Eldar. His Incubi buff is worthless after just a couple of turns and he's barely better than a Klaivex but costs about 6 times as much. If you're just taking him to make your HQ section less monotonous, then I can understand that. I just feel I should let you know so that you're hopefully not too disappointed with him.
3) Splinter Cannons are pretty worthless on Scourges. You might as well just use the basic Shardcarbine and have twice as many bodies (and the same number of shots at 18") for about the same cost.
4) One thing I'm noticing is that you don't seem to have enough transports. If the 6 Kabalites go in the 3 Raiders and the 3 Incubi go in the 3 Venoms, then where are your HQs going? Unless one of your squads is deep striking, you might want to add in another Venom or Raider for your HQs to ride in.
5) Very minor point, but you could try using Dark Lances on one of your Ravagers or on your Raiders so that you can compare them to Disintegrators and see if you want to have more of one or the other. Entirely up to you.
6) Another optional thing, but Mandrakes are pretty good at the moment and can deep strike. I mention this because, if you're short on points, you could replace a unit of Incubi with a unit of Mandrakes and use the leftover transport for your HQs.
Hope this helps and best of luck in your raids. ~Vipoid
Wow, thank you.
Would you recommend splitting between two battalions as opposed to a brigade, to get the benefit of another trait / expanded unit list? Dropping Drazhar (you're right, part of it is just to have some variety), and adding 2 HQs for another Battalion would be easy. I'm not married to the idea of a brigade.
Thanks for the advice on the splinter cannons. It's a very good point. Possibly 2 haywire squads? I see anti-vehicle as problematic in general unless you start bringing dark lances. And let me tell you, having played Tyranids for infinity games, one strong shot, (or D3 strong shots, Heavy Venom Cannon) are totally unreliable, and volume shooting is almost always better. At least if you're like me and your dice secretly hate you. I'll probably magnetize for both cases anyway, because nerfs and inevitable 9th edition.
I've heard many good things about Mandrakes. I'm comfortable replacing Incubi.. i'll check them out. I don't think going mono-kabal is the right call the more I look at it.
Wouldn't it make sense to start one archon on the board so your giant ball of shooting can have access to rerolls turn 1?
When it comes to anti-vehicle, do most DE just ally in CWE? In general, knights, custodes will be problematic. How'd you recommend going against them?
I agree with;
that Drazhar is terrible, completely worthless HQ in everyway possible.
Scourge dont want Splinter Cannons
I like Mandrakes, but they are in an odd place, they have the potential to be really strong, but are easily targeted to be killed, so they normally only get 1-2 rounds of shooting, they are better at killing Trash do to the MW's is an additional wound, they could drop in on 2-3 units (like IG) shoot 1 and charge the other. They also do MW's so you could target 3+/4++ units, like Smash Captain, for 100pts tho they wont kill him unless you roll lucky, you really need to have more than 5 guys 7-8 is more useful.
I used them to kill IG blobs or Smash captain, i tried them against custode type units a few times and didnt do to much.
Would you recommend splitting between two battalions as opposed to a brigade, to get the benefit of another trait / expanded unit list? Dropping Drazhar (you're right, part of it is just to have some variety), and adding 2 HQs for another Battalion would be easy. I'm not married to the idea of a brigade.
It's up to you, really. I think a DE Brigade can potentially work, but it's also going to be very restrictive. Still, if you're mainly interested in playing just Kabal (rather than Cult or Coven), then it could be worth using over a Battalion for the extra CP.
However, if you want to play other stuff, then I'd definitely recommend either two Battalions or else a Battalion and Vanguard or Outrider.
Assuming that you're starting off with a Battalion rather than a Brigade, don't forget that you can use mercenary units to pad out Vanguard or Outrider detachments.
For example, let's say that you want to include a Haemonculus and unit of Grotesques, but you only want one such unit and don't want any Wracks. Well, you can make a Vanguard with:
Haemonculus
Grotesques
Incubi (or Mandrakes)
Incubi (or Mandrakes)
You could even use an Outrider with:
Haemonculus
Grotesques
Scourges
Scourges
Scourges
Obviously it won't get you as many CPs as a second Battalion, but it can be handy if you just want to include a few specific Cult or Coven units.
Thanks for the advice on the splinter cannons. It's a very good point. Possibly 2 haywire squads? I see anti-vehicle as problematic in general unless you start bringing dark lances. And let me tell you, having played Tyranids for infinity games, one strong shot, (or D3 strong shots, Heavy Venom Cannon) are totally unreliable, and volume shooting is almost always better. At least if you're like me and your dice secretly hate you. I'll probably magnetize for both cases anyway, because nerfs and inevitable 9th edition.
I think a second Haywire squad would work well. I find them a lot more useful than Splinter weapons.
Regarding anti-vehicle in general, I think your best bet is to try stuff out and see what works for you. I'd normally agree regarding volume of fire over a few strong shots... except that my Disintegrators have proved themselves utterly hopeless against enemy vehicles.
I've heard many good things about Mandrakes. I'm comfortable replacing Incubi.. i'll check them out.
Well, this is only if you're using a Brigade. I think they're better slot-fillers than Incubi because they're more independent, but if you're using Battalions then you won't need to worry about mandatory Elites (though obviously you might still want to try out Mandrakes and Incubi).
Marmatag wrote: I don't think going mono-kabal is the right call the more I look at it.
Well, if you have an idea which units you'd like to use, I could suggest alternative army arrangements rather than a Brigade.
Wouldn't it make sense to start one archon on the board so your giant ball of shooting can have access to rerolls turn 1?
I think you'd be better off starting him in a transport. That way, you can just disembark him on turn 1 (if you want to), but he'll have an extra 3" of movement to keep up with your vehicles and the transport can still move normally once he's out.
Marmatag wrote: When it comes to anti-vehicle, do most DE just ally in CWE?
Well, I use pure Dark Eldar, so I generally just use Dark Lances, Blasters and Haywire.
Allying in CWE might work better, but I fear you'll have to look elsewhere for help with that (I've got no interest in Eldar soup and so don't know much about it in terms of tactics). Harlequins also have some decent anti-vehicle stuff, I believe, but again I'm not the best person to ask.
I like Mandrakes, but they are in an odd place, they have the potential to be really strong, but are easily targeted to be killed, so they normally only get 1-2 rounds of shooting, they are better at killing Trash do to the MW's is an additional wound, they could drop in on 2-3 units (like IG) shoot 1 and charge the other. They also do MW's so you could target 3+/4++ units, like Smash Captain, for 100pts tho they wont kill him unless you roll lucky, you really need to have more than 5 guys 7-8 is more useful.
I think Mandrakes are useful slot-fillers, since they can work entirely independent of the rest of your army.
However, if you want to focus on them, you could try putting them in Venoms. Granted, you lose out on their deep strike ability, but it means they get a lot more protection from enemy fire and you can more easily set up charges with them.
Some Kabalite warriors will have to foot slog. But that is OK, because in most games there are objectives to sit on.
6 blaster shots from within vehicles
4 dark lance shots
27 disintigrator shots
12d3 haywire shots
and all kinds of splinter shooting
This comes out to about 1900 points, with stock venoms. I could add another venom, or upgrade to splinter cannons on the current venoms.
The idea is to jump right at them. Unload with shooting. Next turn i've got mandrakes, which are like bargain Genestealers (love these! thanks for the suggestion. And, i can "counts-as" with Namarti Thralls so i don't have to deal with resin).
It's not a perfect list but it would do well. I could also cut some points and bring Haemonculous. I do like 4++ talos... and an extra warlord for 1cp.
Emeraldw wrote: Foot slogging. Does the extra work the units perform outweigh the loss of mobility?
I think the difficulty will be in supporting them.
If you want 120 Kabalites, then you're looking at one of the following:
1) A Brigade with 12 units of 10.
2) A Battalion with 6 units of 20.
3) Two Battalions, each with 6 units of 10.
#1 Is going to be very expensive (You're looking at ~2400pts minimum).
#2 Is probably the easiest in terms of list building, but will be unwieldy on the table and extremely vulnerable to morale. Might have potential with Obsidian Rose.
#3 Requires you to take the festering pile of crap known as Drazhar, or else lose your Kabal bonus for one of the battalions.
If the 120 models is supposed to be Kabalites and other units as well, then you could take a Kabal Battalion (6 units of 10) and then add a Patrol (3 more squads of 10), and then also add a Coven or Wych Patrol/Battalion, which will probably be the best option.
The thing is, though, you've got very little support. The reroll 1s aura from the Archons really don't compare to the infantry buffs available to armies like Guard or Orks. Stratagems might help, but I think you'll definitely miss the 'free' (in terms of CPs) toolbox of Orders or such.
I think it could be fun, but I'd be wary of buying models for this army without first testing it with proxies or such.
The idea was something like this (not points exact):
Battlion 1: Cult of Cursed Blade
Succubus x 2
6 units of 10 Wyches (w/ Shardnet)
Battalion 2: Obsidian Rose
Archon x 2
6 units of 10 Warriors (blaster x2 + DL)
Min Scourges with 4 Haywire
Spearhead: Black Heart
Archon (Cunning & Writ)
3 Ravagers with Disintigrators
The list has 6 Dark Lances, 12 blasters, 9 Disintigrators and 4 Haywire for killing tanks. The Wyches and Warriors obviously pack huge amounts of anti-infantry fire overall. 6" extra range on the warriors helps out with range issues quite a bit.
Units of 10 force hard decisions on how much force you put into killing a unit. Killing say, 6 warriors still might leave the heavy weapons and Obsidian Rose has more ways to deal with morale than normal. The Wyches are more or less immune to morale anyway.
Pretty much everything is a troop as well so you can claim objectives even if only one dude is left alive.
In my games, the mobility of the transports is great but I sometimes wonder if just more dudes could just do more work and cover the board more.
I guess it depends on your meta a bit. If you run into Knights, or Custodes, you'll lose so many models. Think about 8 bikes with hurricane bolters. That's 96 shots on the 2+ hit /w reroll and 3+ wound shots. And that's just the 8 bikes portion of the list, there's another massive chunk of points that hasn't acted yet. Meanwhile if they're shooting at Venoms you might lose 2, assuming you don't pop -1.
Would you recommend splitting between two battalions as opposed to a brigade, to get the benefit of another trait / expanded unit list? Dropping Drazhar (you're right, part of it is just to have some variety), and adding 2 HQs for another Battalion would be easy. I'm not married to the idea of a brigade.
Thanks for the advice on the splinter cannons. It's a very good point. Possibly 2 haywire squads? I see anti-vehicle as problematic in general unless you start bringing dark lances. And let me tell you, having played Tyranids for infinity games, one strong shot, (or D3 strong shots, Heavy Venom Cannon) are totally unreliable, and volume shooting is almost always better. At least if you're like me and your dice secretly hate you. I'll probably magnetize for both cases anyway, because nerfs and inevitable 9th edition.
I've heard many good things about Mandrakes. I'm comfortable replacing Incubi.. i'll check them out. I don't think going mono-kabal is the right call the more I look at it.
Wouldn't it make sense to start one archon on the board so your giant ball of shooting can have access to rerolls turn 1?
When it comes to anti-vehicle, do most DE just ally in CWE?
In general, knights, custodes will be problematic. How'd you recommend going against them?
I'm not big on incubi right now. They're a 'mercenaries' unit that doesn't benefit from any of the sub-factions (wych cult, kabal or haemonculus covens). Very few mercenary units end up being ok. Grotesques are fantastic. I had 4 prophets of flesh grotesques tank way more shots than they should've had a right to. Incubi have the same issue all non-coven units have in that they're just too fragile. If they could hit at strength 5 or maybe had some boost like the 3 sub-factions i might take them but as is there's no way unless i'm trying to fill points.
I don't have experience with mandrakes but i think they're still alright. Once again i don't have the experience.
Yeah sadly splinter cannons were never really great but becoming rapid fire makes them feel so much worse than before (least since i played dark eldar in 7th). In 7th poison had an iffy role. It was supposedly to kill monsters but really it was only effective against biker units (jinking didn't change the save), artillery emplacements (wounding crew) or monstrous infantry (ogryns, tyrant guard and similar). Anything bigger usually had a 2+ armor and possibly FnP. As for now poison is sorta ok but not great. These days in 8th i prefer shredders but having many in any situation is tough. I'd say go 3 squads of trueborn with shredders in venoms and then go 'flayed skull' kabal (19" move on your venoms and your shredders ignore cover bonuses!) and reserve them in DS with 'screaming jets'. I generally have a blast with them regardless of how long they survive. Last game i had most of the shredder-born actually live.
Against knights i have no clue how to win mono-dark eldar. It's a good freaking question. I've only fought knights twice so far and only one time had 4 big knights with the 2nd game being 2 small knights and another faction.
Against custodes bring lots of shredder trueborn in venoms. Usually custodes have at least a base 4+ inv. save so unless you can deal mortal wounds you're better off with weapons that avoid a small bit of armor and have lots of damage potential. The high toughness 5 of custodes still gets wounded by shredders on a 3 which can be re-rolled if failed. Shredders on average get 15 shots per shredder-born squad, average of 10 hits, and maybe 9 wounds with at least 3 going through. Might not sound like a lot but this is each squad and each squad in a venom probably costs 2-3 custodes in points. Custodes are super expensive in points per model.
You should have the firepower to down a little knight (Crusader, Warden) in a turn, assuming full or reasonably full strength of your list (and also no rerolls of any kind, you might reroll blaster damage, for example). Especially if you vect the Rotate Ion Shields, although that's probably unwise. You could leave the Castellan alone until the little ones are slain.
That would get you 4 points of Titan Slayer, 4 points of King Slayer, without ever having to touch the Castellan. (48 wounds, -16 = 32, 8*4 = 32.) Assuming you could get 4 points out of Recon (or something that Knights are weak to), and you held an objective all 6 turns, and you killed a unit in at least 4 turns, that puts you at 12 + 6 + 4 = 22 points base. If you held more every turn you go up to 28. If you kill more, it's possible you get into the 30s, which is typically enough to win.
Meanwhile you deny secondaries fairly well aside from Big Game.
The trick would be staying out of melee range while still hitting them. You'd need to leverage ruins or other spots that make it difficult for them to fight you. If they are able to use stomp you probably already lost. It's not an easy fight. There's a reason it's a top list.
PandatheWarrior wrote: I wanna start a drukhari force, how viable is a reaver hellions main force probably with scourges ?
Hellions are not very good in semi-comp or high comp. Reavers are playable for sure and Scourges are as well, they both are 1 hit wonders tho, so just make sure you get the most out of them the turn you use them.
Reavers are good due to their movement and ability to tie units up, or stop the opponent from shooting for a turn, they can even work well against MSU squads.
Scourges are good as for their Turn 1 Protection via DSing. A cheap Anti-Tank or Anti-infantry roll is best (HWB or Shredders)
If you really wanted to use Hellions, make sure you hide them really well and try to not get the, killed turn 1, their low Toughness and army save makes them turn 1 priority for 1st blood, due to how odd they are (D2, with Hit and run and Fly, and can use CP to do MW's) they do pose as a turn 2 threat to units that relay on invul saves, so its another reason why they are targeted turn 1. They are honestly just overcosted for what they do, they really need to go down 3-4pts.
PandatheWarrior wrote: I wanna start a drukhari force, how viable is a reaver hellions main force probably with scourges ?
Hellions are not very good in semi-comp or high comp. Reavers are playable for sure and Scourges are as well, they both are 1 hit wonders tho, so just make sure you get the most out of them the turn you use them.
Reavers are good due to their movement and ability to tie units up, or stop the opponent from shooting for a turn, they can even work well against MSU squads.
Scourges are good as for their Turn 1 Protection via DSing. A cheap Anti-Tank or Anti-infantry roll is best (HWB or Shredders)
If you really wanted to use Hellions, make sure you hide them really well and try to not get the, killed turn 1, their low Toughness and army save makes them turn 1 priority for 1st blood, due to how odd they are (D2, with Hit and run and Fly, and can use CP to do MW's) they do pose as a turn 2 threat to units that relay on invul saves, so its another reason why they are targeted turn 1. They are honestly just overcosted for what they do, they really need to go down 3-4pts.
I have another question for going against knights. Since knights often have a 5+ inv. or 4+ inv. (if they boost it) would it not be good to spam lots of str 5 or 6 attacks that go through a little bit of armor (maybe ap -1 or -2) and maybe do a couple damage each. Right now i hear people using dissies against knights and though you just talked badly of hellions i'm rather curious if DS'ing them via webway (say about 40 of em) and giving them cursed blade obsession so they're all str 5 base. Then give one +1 attack and the other perhaps +1 to hit. For the 3 attacks group that amounts to about 60 attacks at str 5 but no ap and 2 damage. If i recall the numbers it was about 9 damage for the first unit of 20 against a knight. Not great but it's 280 pts. The next unit does almost 8 wounds. So about 17 wounds against a knight between both units out of deepstrike provided overwatch doesn't kill too many and they can all strike in combat. Which might take up a lot of space with 40 dudes but knights have big profiles.
If it's a bad idea i could always try something else. Webway would also prevent screaming jets which isn't exactly something i'd like.
Dissie ravagers in comparison for 2 of them do about 18 shots, 12 hits, 4 wounds and 2 unsaved (vs a 4+ inv. save) which amounts to 4 wounds total and that's 250 pts between the 2. Of course vs anything without an inv. save it's different. For blasters on scourge that's 256 pts for 8 blasters doing about 8/6 for unsaved wounds and maybe 4 damage. For haywire maybe all 3 squads with 24 shots, 16 hits, 8 wounds and then 2 or 3 of those doing d3 wounds so an average of 10 or 11 wounds which is actually really good considering the cost. Of course the only other place we can get haywire is talos and we can only cap scourge squads at 3 squads.
I have another question for going against knights. Since knights often have a 5+ inv. or 4+ inv. (if they boost it) would it not be good to spam lots of str 5 or 6 attacks that go through a little bit of armor (maybe ap -1 or -2) and maybe do a couple damage each.
Well, they're basically exactly what you describe above, with an extra point of AP.
flamingkillamajig wrote: though you just talked badly of hellions i'm rather curious if DS'ing them via webway (say about 40 of em) and giving them cursed blade obsession so they're all str 5 base. Then give one +1 attack and the other perhaps +1 to hit. For the 3 attacks group that amounts to about 60 attacks at str 5 but no ap and 2 damage. If i recall the numbers it was about 9 damage for the first unit of 20 against a knight. Not great but it's 280 pts. The next unit does almost 8 wounds. So about 17 wounds against a knight between both units out of deepstrike provided overwatch doesn't kill too many and they can all strike in combat. Which might take up a lot of space with 40 dudes but knights have big profiles.
This seems like quite a risk. Even with rerolls, charging from Deep Strike is far from guaranteed. And if you don't get the charge, then those units will get absolutely devastated. And even under ideal conditions - both squads charging from deep strike, not losing a single model to overwatch, the IK player not using the stratagem to let him strike first against the second squad etc., you're still only taking off about 2/3 of its wounds on average.
Dissie ravagers in comparison for 2 of them do about 18 shots, 12 hits, 4 wounds and 2 unsaved (vs a 4+ inv. save) which amounts to 4 wounds total and that's 250 pts between the 2. Of course vs anything without an inv. save it's different.
Are you including the rerolls to hit and to wound from the inevitable Black Heart Archon with Vect's Poetry Recital? Because that could well be a factor.
Otherwise, I think one major difference is that Ravagers and disinegrators are universally useful. They're the sort of model that most lists will want to include, whilst with Hellions you've basically got ~560pts of 'I hope my opponent brings Imperial Knights so that I can be mediocre against them'.
Another aspect is that Ravagers have far less risk and arguably less investment involved. You mentioned the point cost but didn't factor in that deep striking those two Hellion squads requires 3 CPs - which is pretty steep. What's more, whilst the Hellions might average more wounds against the Knights in theory, there is far more risk involved and far more opportunities for catastrophic failure. If the Knights are bubble-wrapped in some way, then the Hellions won't be able to get close enough to charge them. If the Hellions fail their charge (which is far from unlikely) then they're basically screwed. You're also hoping to take no or minimal losses on Overwatch, which isn't guaranteed. etc.
I don't know, it could potentially work but there seems to be an awful lot of risk involved.
Then again, I don't think Dark Eldar really have any solid answers to Knights without bringing allies. So maybe we'll just have to take whatever we can get. I guess the question is how much you want to tailor against Knights to the detriment of your lost against non-Knight opponents.
DE has no good Anti-knights other than HWB spam from Scourges and Talos, but then you are re-moving (scourges) one of DE's better shooting anti-infantry.
The problem isnt just DE tho, its everyone, who can kill a 3+/4++, T8, 28wound unit faster than it can remove your units to kill it? Not really anyone, thats one of the many reasons why its such a good unit right now. If CP wasnt so easy to get, taking off 18 wounds would make it easy to deal with and you can ignore it for a turn, but since it can always acting as "full wounds" thats not an option.
You either kill it in 1-2 turns or you ignore it. Luckily DE has enough cheap units that we can get Into combat and ignore it.
Take lots of Fly units that can melee turn 1-2 and ignore the knight if you dont think you can kill it, win on objectives not on killing 1 unit.
@vipoid: 3 CP is nothing in the grand scheme of things for a dark eldar player. People use that every time they use AoV and screaming jets usually takes about 4-5 CP from my list that i won't be using if i use this. Also if you decide to you can boost power from pain for one turn so you get +1 to hit on the hellions with extra attacks (it'll be acting as if it's turn 3 from turn 2 DS). That only takes 1 CP to do.
If you wish you can also take HWB spam with this. Scourge can DS as well. See it as more of another option. I don't think most knights do a lot of hits in melee but maybe i'm wrong. More anti-large in melee rather than anti-horde. If you surround them can they still just step out of combat? I can't remember if knights get that special rule vs infantry. If not maybe someone tried to cheat.
Except that not everyone uses Black Heart and so not everyone has access to AoV or the CP regeneration.
flamingkillamajig wrote: screaming jets usually takes about 4-5 CP from my list that i won't be using if i use this.
I'm actually glad you brought this up because it made me realise I'd been misreading Screaming Jets. I'd thought it worked the same as Webway Portal - 1CP for 1 unit, 3CP for 2 units.
I suspect I'll be using it more now.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Also if you decide to you can boost power from pain for one turn so you get +1 to hit on the hellions with extra attacks (it'll be acting as if it's turn 3 from turn 2 DS). That only takes 1 CP to do.
You can but I'm still not convinced that Hellions are the best units for this.
Are you sure they're better than, say, Mandrakes? They don't have 2 damage on their weapons but they have -1AP, can cause Mortal Wounds, can deep strike without needing CP, are more consistent (no Combat Drugs to manage), and are effective from 18" away (making it harder to bubble-wrap against them and meaning they're not reliant on a risky charge from deep strike, though you'll still have the option).
So I have a tournament coming up next weekend and I will likely see at least 1 Raven Castellan. What is the consensus on protecting Ravagers and raiders from First turn alpha strikes? I'm thinking about burning 3-6 points to screaming jets them in turn 1 if I don't go first leaving just a handful of characters and two units of grotesques on the field to start. tournament is 1750 and I'll have anywhere between 10-12 command points to start. My thought is if I can knock out the Castellan in a couple rounds the grotesques and surviving vehicles can mop up the smash captains or dawn eagles and the likely guard battery.
Amishprn86 wrote: Mandrakes also has 5++ -1 to hit, they are much more durable than Hellions, they are 3ppm more and i would take them every game over hellions.
Yeah well how bout the both of you come up with a better way to handle knights than hellions that doesn't rely on eldar soup. I'll be waiting to hear one.
Our only other ok-ish option vs knights is haywire and people do eldar soup just to boost that even.
Amishprn86 wrote: Mandrakes also has 5++ -1 to hit, they are much more durable than Hellions, they are 3ppm more and i would take them every game over hellions.
Yeah well how bout the both of you come up with a better way to handle knights than hellions that doesn't rely on eldar soup. I'll be waiting to hear one.
Our only other ok-ish option vs knights is haywire and people do eldar soup just to boost that even.
You need CWE/Quins to kill knights, DE dont have enough unless you put in 700pts just to kill them, example, DS Scourges with HWB's with HWB Talos, Voidbombers S9, and MW's from the 2 stratagems for TGL's/Haywire.
If you are 100% keen on killing a knight via DE only, then you could do 30 HWB's from Scourges/Talos, make sure to use the Stratagem, a TGL stratagem, with 3 Voidbombers, and a max unit of Reavers for MW's turn 1 charge for back up if you can bomb 3x.
vindicare0412 wrote: So I have a tournament coming up next weekend and I will likely see at least 1 Raven Castellan. What is the consensus on protecting Ravagers and raiders from First turn alpha strikes? I'm thinking about burning 3-6 points to screaming jets them in turn 1 if I don't go first leaving just a handful of characters and two units of grotesques on the field to start. tournament is 1750 and I'll have anywhere between 10-12 command points to start. My thought is if I can knock out the Castellan in a couple rounds the grotesques and surviving vehicles can mop up the smash captains or dawn eagles and the likely guard battery.
So... you *can* spend 1cp at a time for each of your 3 ravagers in reserve. 3 cp isn't too much of a tax to protect your ravagers from being shot at.
Screaming jets is one way. Threat saturation is another.. force target priority with something more durable like mass hwb taloi. Or some combo of these. Terrain and mission are the main determining factors but I'll add if your gonna scream jet multiples then make it count. For example 2x5 blasterborn in a raider and another 7 TB with Archon and full dark light in another. Round it out with flyers.
Might be a fool question, but for the new codex did GW remove Tureborn? I keep seeing them in some of the older lists but I can not find them in my codex.
guardpiper wrote: Might be a fool question, but for the new codex did GW remove Tureborn? I keep seeing them in some of the older lists but I can not find them in my codex.
Yes, and Bloodbrides, just 2 more units removed from codex updates.
vindicare0412 wrote: So I have a tournament coming up next weekend and I will likely see at least 1 Raven Castellan. What is the consensus on protecting Ravagers and raiders from First turn alpha strikes? I'm thinking about burning 3-6 points to screaming jets them in turn 1 if I don't go first leaving just a handful of characters and two units of grotesques on the field to start. tournament is 1750 and I'll have anywhere between 10-12 command points to start. My thought is if I can knock out the Castellan in a couple rounds the grotesques and surviving vehicles can mop up the smash captains or dawn eagles and the likely guard battery.
So... you *can* spend 1cp at a time for each of your 3 ravagers in reserve. 3 cp isn't too much of a tax to protect your ravagers from being shot at.
And something that should generally be done.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Amishprn86 wrote: DE has no good Anti-knights other than HWB spam from Scourges and Talos, but then you are re-moving (scourges) one of DE's better shooting anti-infantry.
The problem isnt just DE tho, its everyone, who can kill a 3+/4++, T8, 28wound unit faster than it can remove your units to kill it? Not really anyone, thats one of the many reasons why its such a good unit right now. If CP wasnt so easy to get, taking off 18 wounds would make it easy to deal with and you can ignore it for a turn, but since it can always acting as "full wounds" thats not an option.
You either kill it in 1-2 turns or you ignore it. Luckily DE has enough cheap units that we can get Into combat and ignore it.
Take lots of Fly units that can melee turn 1-2 and ignore the knight if you dont think you can kill it, win on objectives not on killing 1 unit.
I wouldn't completely redefine your list based on the Castellan. Rumor has it, it's seeing a nerf in the upcoming FAQ.
In general we seem to find ourselves in disagreement on these forums, but the plan of avoiding the Knight and playing the mission is the way to go. It's one big model. It'll hurt you, no question, but you should be able to deal with everything else if you write the Knight off as a loss. Remember, they've only got 1400 points other than the Knight.
When I play my Nids i run into super heavies frequently. Generally I kill everything else and just park on objectives to win. Of course Nids have even less answers than DE to super heavy.
vindicare0412 wrote: So I have a tournament coming up next weekend and I will likely see at least 1 Raven Castellan. What is the consensus on protecting Ravagers and raiders from First turn alpha strikes? I'm thinking about burning 3-6 points to screaming jets them in turn 1 if I don't go first leaving just a handful of characters and two units of grotesques on the field to start. tournament is 1750 and I'll have anywhere between 10-12 command points to start. My thought is if I can knock out the Castellan in a couple rounds the grotesques and surviving vehicles can mop up the smash captains or dawn eagles and the likely guard battery.
So... you *can* spend 1cp at a time for each of your 3 ravagers in reserve. 3 cp isn't too much of a tax to protect your ravagers from being shot at.
And something that should generally be done.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Amishprn86 wrote: DE has no good Anti-knights other than HWB spam from Scourges and Talos, but then you are re-moving (scourges) one of DE's better shooting anti-infantry.
The problem isnt just DE tho, its everyone, who can kill a 3+/4++, T8, 28wound unit faster than it can remove your units to kill it? Not really anyone, thats one of the many reasons why its such a good unit right now. If CP wasnt so easy to get, taking off 18 wounds would make it easy to deal with and you can ignore it for a turn, but since it can always acting as "full wounds" thats not an option.
You either kill it in 1-2 turns or you ignore it. Luckily DE has enough cheap units that we can get Into combat and ignore it.
Take lots of Fly units that can melee turn 1-2 and ignore the knight if you dont think you can kill it, win on objectives not on killing 1 unit.
I wouldn't completely redefine your list based on the Castellan. Rumor has it, it's seeing a nerf in the upcoming FAQ.
In general we seem to find ourselves in disagreement on these forums, but the plan of avoiding the Knight and playing the mission is the way to go. It's one big model. It'll hurt you, no question, but you should be able to deal with everything else if you write the Knight off as a loss. Remember, they've only got 1400 points other than the Knight.
When I play my Nids i run into super heavies frequently. Generally I kill everything else and just park on objectives to win. Of course Nids have even less answers than DE to super heavy.
Im not talking about rumors or future, i was talking about right now, b,c even if they are going up 100pts, you can still go up against a full knights list, something DE "can" struggle against if you take a TAC list, ESPECIALLY if Talos and Ravagers get nerf, if we and knights both get equal nerfs then its basically the same power levels as of right now (when fighting Mono DE vs Mono knights).
ALso i fully agree that you ignore it and kill everything else winning on objectives, but if someone asks how to kill knights and they want to kill them, then i'll give advice on that.
guardpiper wrote: Might be a fool question, but for the new codex did GW remove Tureborn? I keep seeing them in some of the older lists but I can not find them in my codex.
Yes, and Bloodbrides, just 2 more units removed from codex updates.
Anyone else miss the old days, when new codices would add units rather than removing them?
guardpiper wrote: Might be a fool question, but for the new codex did GW remove Tureborn? I keep seeing them in some of the older lists but I can not find them in my codex.
Yes, and Bloodbrides, just 2 more units removed from codex updates.
Anyone else miss the old days, when new codices would add units rather than removing them?
guardpiper wrote: Might be a fool question, but for the new codex did GW remove Tureborn? I keep seeing them in some of the older lists but I can not find them in my codex.
Yes, and Bloodbrides, just 2 more units removed from codex updates.
Anyone else miss the old days, when new codices would add units rather than removing them?
I'm interested in possibly starting Drukhari and was hoping someone could point me in the right direction as far as buying models go. How much value would I get by buying a Drukhari Start Collecting box or two? Looking for a semi-competitive build. What units should I expand a SC box with?
The Star collecting Box is basically a Wych Patrol thats about 300pts, Its great for new players and amazing to add to a already good Kabal/Coven army, as a starter army is not to good, DE Wyches needs support from Kabal and Coven, while Kabal and Coven can play mono easily, Wych is still a step behind.
If you want to start out with a more Comp DE list, then I would buy 2 Ravagers and 2 Boxes of Kabals, and at least 2 Venoms, the 2 Archons (You can convert these so no need to buy them), thats 6 boxes in total but it will get you a very Competitive 750pt army.
If you want to save money and you dont care if the Guys hang off the Venoms/Ravager, you can use the 2 crew that hangs off (4 boxes = 8 models) for a 5man and 2 Archons, so now you dont have to buy a 2nd Kabal box. (it would be 2 Venoms, 2 Ravagers, 1 Kabal) for 750pt army, Tho you WONT have a lot of Blasters/Shredders, you will for sure be missing special weapons (that 750pt list has 5 blasters in it) and it would b about 700pt list.
Sounds like Kabalites, Venoms, and Ravagers to start. Are the big fliers worth buying? Or should I just be spamming big combinations of the above three units?
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Sounds like Kabalites, Venoms, and Ravagers to start. Are the big fliers worth buying? Or should I just be spamming big combinations of the above three units?
Flyers are fine, the RWJF is a bit better for the points, many players will take both tho.
So I'm having an issue recently with a local players Nurgle list. I do not remember exactly what was in the list each time but most the time it consists of 2 DG Demon Princes and one Chaos Deamon one all with wings. 3 Plague Crawlers a unit of three Blight Haulers and Epidemius.
Even hitting on 4s the crawlers seem to put out enough bullets to drop my ravagers and everything has a high enough toughness that grotesques are far less effective in melee. Any help will be great.
Generally my list is a mix of prophets and black heart. Occasionally sprinkling in eldrad, a warlock, and a spirit seer. + Filler
Take Flyers for sure, hitting on 5+ compare to 4+, dont forget to use Lightning fast stratagem for -1 to hit as well, -6 to hit something means he wont shoot it.
A Void bomber and Hemlock will do lots of damage to them for sure, S9/12 means you would on 3+ instead of 4+/5+.
Anyone else notice on the Drukhari FAQ they updated a stance on the combination of the succubus with the Serpentin drug? WS 1+ is a thing and with the archite glaives -1 to hit we still hit on a roll of 2 since only natural rolls of 1 count as an auto-miss. I'm stoked to see that, archite glaive is still hot garbage but this makes it at least a bit more palatable.
If only they'd also bump up the CP we get for running our raiding party now so it becomes a viable building option as well as battalions for our army.
What? yeah that was always like that, a +1 and a -1 still stacks the same as any other modifiers, you always apply all modifiers. I thought everyone was playing it this way already lol.
Amishprn86 wrote: What? yeah that was always like that, a +1 and a -1 still stacks the same as any other modifiers, you always apply all modifiers. I thought everyone was playing it this way already lol.
I think we may be thinking of two separate things here. I`m aware that a +1 and a -1 modifier will stack to effectively cancel each other out but I`m not talking about stacking modifiers to hit in this instance. The drug I mentioned increases your WS by 1 making the WS2 Succubus WS1 instead, meaning she hits on a D6 roll of 1 or higher. The BRB tells us that a roll of 1 to hit is always a miss regardless of modifiers. With the archite glaive giving us -1 to hit if we rolled a 2 it would then be modified down to a 1, this matches our drugged up succubus WS1 so it meets the requirement to call it a hit, except the result is a 1 so it counts as an auto-fail. This FAQ clarifies for us that in this situation for the succubus only a natural roll of 1 to hit is considered a miss and so a 2 modified down to a 1 still hits. I hope that clears up what my intent with the last post was.
I was looking at things like the PGL and other LD modifying things. My main opponent plays Space Wolves...I was wondering if I can use those tools to chip extra casualties off of his units.
For the Talos, can I stick it with a particular weapon or am I better magnetising a couple of options.
Okay, lastly, reading though this thread a bit I see that Ravagers seem to be run with Disintegrators as standard. I assume this is to shred SM on foot with some secondary ability to chip wounds off vehicles?
Leadersship damage is knida pointless unless you have a power the deals damage based off the leadership, almost every army can ignore Moral, Marines gets 2 chances to roll low for example and you can just send 2cp to completely ignore it, its pointless mostly.
Talos wants either Macro x2, or Chain-fails+Macro (this is more common and i agree with this way as best) and HWB's are just amazing now.
Dis Cannons are best b.c they in 8/10 situations are equal to more does more damage than Dark lances, and giving that, that they are 5pts cheaper, they are just better in every way. But this might change in Dec with the release of point balancing, they most likely will go upt o 20pts, but even then they most likely will still be better, mostly b.c infantry is more popular and they still do equal to a DL vs big targets (there are a couple situations that the DL is far better).
I personally run 2 Dis Ravagers, 1 DL ravager, 2 Dis RWJF and 1 DL RWJF (the DL RWJF is replaced with a bomber sometimes).
I was looking at things like the PGL and other LD modifying things. My main opponent plays Space Wolves...I was wondering if I can use those tools to chip extra casualties off of his units.
I agree that the leadership thing by itself isn't all that useful, unless you go all in with Coven stuff, but it's a pretty big commitment and doesn't always work.
What I have found useful is using the PGL in conjunction with Harlequin Hallucinagen grenade launcher, allows the Shadowseers to really crank out mortal wounds. And just packing a couple PGLs really isn't too much of a point investment.
Dashofpepper wrote: Who's the local Dark Eldar / Drukhari lord and master these days? I need to see about getting back into the swing of things.
Local? I have no idea where you live so hard to say. Not really sure what you are looking for...
I'd start by getting the rulebook and codex. Then read all the posts here in this thread, most of the generally accepted dos and donts of this edition codex have been hashed out pretty good.
Beyond that if you're looking for new and innovative you are going to have to experiment. In the major events there are always the majority of lists, which fall in line with the common meta theories (currently often Knights with Guard and some marine HQs), then there are the outlier lists. The outliers are things that no one thought to bring to a major event, sometimes they are wildly successful, usually they fall flat. But coming up with those are not going to developed online. You can find the common theories by reading for 30 minutes on forums.
Edit* do you mean who is the grand authority on all things Dark Eldar? Like competitively? I don't think there is one. Most of the really good tournament players I know don't actually post on forums, especially their lists. They use them to see what the 'sheep' are taking these days so they can take counter-meta lists, but otherwise they rely on independent ideas. Those ideas then filter down to the forums after they perform well at a couple events, and the cycle starts over again. Online forum popularity and actual tabletop results don't often go hand-in-hand.
Dashofpepper wrote: Who's the local Dark Eldar / Drukhari lord and master these days? I need to see about getting back into the swing of things.
Local? I have no idea where you live so hard to say. Not really sure what you are looking for...
I'd start by getting the rulebook and codex. Then read all the posts here in this thread, most of the generally accepted dos and donts of this edition codex have been hashed out pretty good.
Beyond that if you're looking for new and innovative you are going to have to experiment. In the major events there are always the majority of lists, which fall in line with the common meta theories (currently often Knights with Guard and some marine HQs), then there are the outlier lists. The outliers are things that no one thought to bring to a major event, sometimes they are wildly successful, usually they fall flat. But coming up with those are not going to developed online. You can find the common theories by reading for 30 minutes on forums.
Edit* do you mean who is the grand authority on all things Dark Eldar? Like competitively? I don't think there is one. Most of the really good tournament players I know don't actually post on forums, especially their lists. They use them to see what the 'sheep' are taking these days so they can take counter-meta lists, but otherwise they rely on independent ideas. Those ideas then filter down to the forums after they perform well at a couple events, and the cycle starts over again. Online forum popularity and actual tabletop results don't often go hand-in-hand.
Skaredcast YouTube is pretty good. He has won a few major Canadian tournaments and gives good advice.
so...long time guard player and necron player looking to mix things up a bit by playing DE. Not interested in playing a uber competitive one trick list - more like a TAC list to get used to the shenanigans. Any suggestions for a 2k list? Other than take troops, transports, a flyer and a few named characters
necron99 wrote: so...long time guard player and necron player looking to mix things up a bit by playing DE. Not interested in playing a uber competitive one trick list - more like a TAC list to get used to the shenanigans. Any suggestions for a 2k list? Other than take troops, transports, a flyer and a few named characters
Well our named characters arent all that great, so that makes it a little easier.
There are a few different flavors, so first you have to decide what style or styles you want to run. All are reasonably viable.
Coven are the tough beatsticks. Grotesques and Talos being the best. Bump their invuln up with your Coven trait and their toughness up by keeping your haemonculus nearby and it's extremely tough.
Wych Cults are fast. Reavers are very quick, can tie up units on turn 1. Wyches aren't super killy, but good at tying up and not letting the enemy fall back. Succubus are solid HQs, and pretty cheap.
Kabals are best for laying down splinter and darklight fire, probably best damage output.
Then you can flavor any of the above factions with unaligned units, but really Scourges are probably the only ones worth taking.
Venoms might be the best light vehicle in the game, always worth taking some.
Most people running pure Dark Eldar list usually run 2 DE factions in list. Fitting all 3 in is sort of difficult. I usually run primarily Cult with some Kabal.
So what sort of style do you want the list to have?
*Edit, here's one list I like just for example, not hyper competitive, but it's fun and can do very well. I personally don't use Ravagers or fliers.
Reavers [6 PL, 154pts]: 2x Grav-Talon, Painbringer (Combat Drug)
. Arena Champion
. 3x Reaver
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
Reavers [3 PL, 77pts]: Grav-Talon, Grave Lotus (Combat Drug)
. Arena Champion
. Reaver
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
Reavers [6 PL, 154pts]: 2x Grav-Talon, Painbringer (Combat Drug)
. Arena Champion
. 3x Reaver
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
Archon [4 PL, 86pts]: Blast Pistol, Huskblade, The Helm of Spite
+ Troops +
Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 47pts] . 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warriors [4 PL, 71pts] . 7x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warriors [4 PL, 71pts] . 7x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 47pts] . 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 47pts] . 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 47pts] . 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle
+ Fast Attack +
Scourges [5 PL, 92pts] . Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Haywire blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Haywire blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Haywire blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Haywire blaster
. Solarite: Shardcarbine
Scourges [5 PL, 92pts] . Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Haywire blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Haywire blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Haywire blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Haywire blaster
. Solarite: Shardcarbine
With the copious amounts of Knights that have been around lately, my more competitive lists are now either Harlequin/Kabal or Harlequin/WychCult with the former being slightly better. The more Haywire the better.
I've recently started to consolidate my many small and medium-sized armies into one big Dark Eldar army. It's amazing to me, as this won't be the first DE army I've had, but I always forget how good these models look in person. I do have a few questions for you more experienced Archons out there.
1) Obsidian Rose seems pretty solid for Venoms and Warriors, and in my head that would be a good starting point for a Kabal as it would give me an extra 6" in which to deal with infantry. How have people found this actually works in person?
2) I also feel like massed splinter fire would be great for dealing with tough infantry like Custodes. Is this how people crack those particular nuts?
3) for competitive games where allying in Eldar or Quins is a good plan: what Craftworld (fluff-wise) harbors closer ties with Dark Eldar? When allying in Eldar, are Rangers the troops of choice that people go with to fulfill slots?
4) what kind of force org are people running? I'd love to run 6 Drukhari detachments, but I also realize that most tournaments cap at 3. What are people doing for their detachments and command points at big tournaments?
5) (edit) How are you equipping your Sybarites? I need mine to have either a power sword or agoniser, but what else should I go with?
I've recently started to consolidate my many small and medium-sized armies into one big Dark Eldar army. It's amazing to me, as this won't be the first DE army I've had, but I always forget how good these models look in person. I do have a few questions for you more experienced Archons out there.
1) Obsidian Rose seems pretty solid for Venoms and Warriors, and in my head that would be a good starting point for a Kabal as it would give me an extra 6" in which to deal with infantry. How have people found this actually works in person?
2) I also feel like massed splinter fire would be great for dealing with tough infantry like Custodes. Is this how people crack those particular nuts?
3) for competitive games where allying in Eldar or Quins is a good plan: what Craftworld (fluff-wise) harbors closer ties with Dark Eldar? When allying in Eldar, are Rangers the troops of choice that people go with to fulfill slots?
4) what kind of force org are people running? I'd love to run 6 Drukhari detachments, but I also realize that most tournaments cap at 3. What are people doing for their detachments and command points at big tournaments?
5) (edit) How are you equipping your Sybarites? I need mine to have either a power sword or agoniser, but what else should I go with?
1: I prefer Flayed skull, or Poison tongue. Range often isn't an issue, but speed or killing power can be
2: Massed splinter fire is pretty decent. Weight of attacks in general is how DE get stuff done.
3: My competitive preference is Harlequins with Dark Eldar, either Kabal or Cult, with a big combo of Skyweavers and Scourges with Haywire to make Castellans disappear.
I've allied Harlequins and Craftworld, haven't done Craftworld and dark Eldar yet. Usually a battalion with Rangers and a farseer and a couple warlocks.
4: At least 2 Battalions, and maybe an Outrider. It's nearly impossible to run a good Brigade because the Codex is fragmented. But it's easy to start the game with 13 or 14 cp, and it's usually enough unless you are burning through them with Agents of Vect (I don't use it, too expensive).
5: Nothing. Maybe a PGL if I'm trying to get some extra wounds from a Shadowseer HGL
1) Obsidian Rose seems pretty solid for Venoms and Warriors, and in my head that would be a good starting point for a Kabal as it would give me an extra 6" in which to deal with infantry. How have people found this actually works in person?
I haven't tried it myself, but I've heard it's pretty good.
2) I also feel like massed splinter fire would be great for dealing with tough infantry like Custodes. Is this how people crack those particular nuts?
Well, Disintegrators would probably be my first pick.
3 Lhamaeans with a (preferably non-Warlord) Archon can also do some serious work against elite infantry, though they're probably better with Poison Tongue.
Maybe Mandrakes.
Splinter fire is okay, but I rarely find it reliable. It's probably best with Flayed Skull - since you get to ignore any cover bonuses (which is really helpful against elite units with 3+ saves).
3) for competitive games where allying in Eldar or Quins is a good plan: what Craftworld (fluff-wise) harbors closer ties with Dark Eldar? When allying in Eldar, are Rangers the troops of choice that people go with to fulfill slots?
I'm going to skip this one as I don't use allies and have no knowledge or interest in Eldar fluff.
4) what kind of force org are people running? I'd love to run 6 Drukhari detachments, but I also realize that most tournaments cap at 3. What are people doing for their detachments and command points at big tournaments?
I don't generally play in tournaments but at 1500pts I'll usually use a Battalion of Kabal and then an Outrider or Vanguard or Cult or Coven. Sometimes, though, I'll just use a single Battalion.
5) (edit) How are you equipping your Sybarites? I need mine to have either a power sword or agoniser, but what else should I go with?
Nothing. Power swords are absolute garbage and Agonisers aren't far behind. Blast Pistols cost more than Inferno Pistols in spite of being outright worse. The only upgrade I'd ever consider is the Phantasm Grenade Launcher (mainly just to use otherwise unspent points), but then I'd probably take it on an Archon rather than a Sybarite.
Craftworld Il-Kaithe meaning "Knowledge of Blood" known for being close to the Eye of Terror and constantly fighting chaos while having close ties with Dark Eldar allies. They're a lesser craftworld so your free to pick your trait. As someone who allies with craftworld I reccomend Ulthwe as everything that works for me personally, guardians pyskers wraithguard/blades and bikes wants to be close to the enemy negating Alaitoc's benefit. Its also nice to just have an always on 6+++ FNP to both sides to keep it simple
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: Have people been having any success with Lelith?
She's probably my favorite unit in the game currently, but I don't play in a very competitive meta.
I like her, only issue is I usually use Red Grief. So she only makes it into my lists if I'm taking 2 Cult Battalions. If you can get her in combat with a Character she can be very effective .
Dashofpepper wrote: I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts about Ynarri armies.
Ynnari is extremely powerful, but pure DE Ynnari is not. Ynnari is much better with Quins and CWE, Wyches can be good with ynnari, but they take away from Quins and CWE. Quins and CWE have specialist non-vehicle units, that means they do their job and they do it extremely well, when they can move, shoot, melee twice, its just stupidly good. DE are dont really have much high damage specialist units that are not vehicles, and the ones that DE does have can not be Ynnari (there is a list that isnt allowed to be Ynnari).
ATM the best general units for Ynnari are: Shiny Spears
Skyweavers
Guardians
Dark Reapers
Secondary good units are: Troupes
Wyches
Banshees
Fire Dragons
There are a few more you could add, but once you learn their rules and how they play you can find out those units.
In general, a Ynnari list will make a list of 3 units that can fully use the Double move, Double shoot, Double melee, you will normally have back up units for those as well in case you need a different type of melee or shooting, aka, Anti-tank (Skyweavers) or anti-infantry (Guardians), or a general good unit like Shiny Spears that can do both, but you need to pick 1.
Note: Shiny Spears can Shoot twice and even Fire and Fade for a free 7" movement, or Fire then Melee twice, or shoot twice then melee once
A general Ynnari list will have
CWEHQ's with Shiny spears and Guardians DSing blob of 20
Quins Skyweavers 3 units (1x6, 2x2) and a Shadowseer
DE with Kabal Black heart non-ynnari for 3 Ravagers and a flyer or 2 with 3 kabals for CP
But this might change when CA comes out, we will have to see if Knights are still a problem if they are not them Skyweavers might not be a good pick anymore (Unless its vehicle spam b.c of SoB)
I am being drawn towards DE for my next army I think. Learning how to play, and how to game competitively would be very beneficial to me rn. (My current tactic is put my army in a deathball in the center then roflstomp everything because custodes ). Dark eldar are a much more delicate, yes? After having a browse, and going up against DE, I know that ravagers+venoms+kabalites are pretty damn good. I think what I would be going for initially is a 1000 point force for use in a doubles tourney. Suggestions on how to get started with a comp. list? Any price savers? Any list ideas? From what I've seen for 1000 pts a battalion of multiple ravagers + kabalites in venoms is probably strongest atm.
A very easy and simple but yet still competitive starting army for 1k.
Archon x2 Kabal pack x2 (15 kabals, they come in 10mans, this will give you 15 basic and 5 more for weapon options). 3 Ravagers 1 Razorwing Jetfight (RWJF for short)
This will be 950pts, so you have a few points for either Dl's or Blasters added (note this is with current points and with all Disintegrator Cannons).
Everything were is hyper comp, and you can play it as either Battalion, Black Heart or Flawed Skull very effectively.
NOTE: Ravagers, Venoms, Raiders, all come with 2-3 Extra Riders, if you dont need like them on the vehicles and dont need Special weapons and you just want basic Kabals, OR if you want to convert an Archon, use the Riders instead of using them on the vehicles. They are in different Poses too, they are great to use as extra Kabals.
Buying 3 Ravagers will give you a full extra unit of Kabals, the 3 Venoms will also give you a extra unit of Kabals as well, But you wont have special weapons. SO you still want 1-2 Boxes of Kabals for sure.
With all those kits (2 Archons, 2 Kabals, 3 Venoms, 3 Ravagers, 1 Flyer) it will be after discount something like 300$
Thats actually really good, 300$ for 1k points. But coven.. thats costly, so dont start out with coven, coven also might get a nerf soon too, so another reason to not start with those.
But if you like Coven, for sure Haemonculus, Talos, grotesques.
Black heart spearhead
Archon w/ labyrinthine cunning and writ of the living muse 76
3x ravager w/dark Lance + 2 dissie 130x3 390
1000 pts exactly
What do you think? It's not going to be cheap to buy by any means, but in theory it's a meannnn list.
Do you think my kabal obsessions are right? Do you think the warlord archon not in a transport will be ok? (I was thinking of having him hide behind the ravagers in a castle until they need to go elsewhere but then he's out in the open, is that a good idea?) And finally, any top tips on how to play deldar?
Hi guys, i'm probably going to start a DE army, i read some informations on the forum about them, but i wanted to ask you what do you think about the lot that im willing to buy and if it's worth the investment:
The main stuff that might not be too useful are the Incubi and Hellions. The Incubi don't really have a job to fill, and the Hellions are just a little too fragile and/or expensive get the job done.
So it depends on what kind of deal you are getting. You'll need some Venoms at some point too.
Alessios96 wrote: Hi guys, i'm probably going to start a DE army, i read some informations on the forum about them, but i wanted to ask you what do you think about the lot that im willing to buy and if it's worth the investment:
Reavers are only really good as a screen to stop other units shooting for a little bit (provided you charge enough of them), as objective takers or overwatch shields for other units. Last game they helped me not get shot up by a leviathan dreadnought for a whole shooting phase at the cost of the unit but it still helped. Wyches are ok if you have something take overwatch for them i'd imagine but this is just a theory for me. Be wary that most of our melee infantry are meant to only fight other infantry and wyches need something to take overwatch for them to survive. Talos are supposed to be good. The planes we have seem nice enough. People like ravagers but like anything else in our army you should probably wait to DS it turn 2 provided you're not above your DS limit. I don't think i'm as in love with these as some of the other players. Personally i think archons with blasters in a venom and small anti-tank scourge squads do so much more. Hellions suck but that's because they do 2 damage with no AP they're super fragile and could only probably be good against knights. If you face knights a lot they might be good but you'd have to bring em in through webway portal and take cursed blade cult probably. Urien should work well if you take covens units. Prophets of flesh is the coven most people take anyway because 4+ inv. save is amazing. It's a shame wracks only do one damage with their poisoned weapons because 20 or so of em with the -1 AP coven might be fairly nice if they did more damage. Warriors and trueborn are great. I give my trueborn shredders and last game i cut down a ton of plague marines with them. The re-rollable wound vs infantry with str 6 is really nice. Blasters are also nice enough. Incubi suck and you should always use Grotesques instead. Grotesques can shrug off damage like nobody's business even though i only have 4 and even move them up the board.
I still think 8th is "first-turn hammer" or at least for dark eldar. I think it's because of how fragile we are. That said going heavy covens would probably be exempt.
----------
This probably won't get noticed but are archons with blasters in a venom a good idea when my scourge and trueborn all have their special weapons accounted for? I find archons with blasters are accurate even with negative modifiers. I probably would only put 2 per venom and while expensive the extra BS seems really nice. Should i go with something else instead like my 2 void ravens or try putting warriors with blasters into raiders?
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: Have people been having any success with Lelith?
She's probably my favorite unit in the game currently, but I don't play in a very competitive meta.
I like her, only issue is I usually use Red Grief. So she only makes it into my lists if I'm taking 2 Cult Battalions. If you can get her in combat with a Character she can be very effective .
I'm running Red Grief for my main wych force but I'm thinking about bringing a patrol of Strife or Cursed Blade. Probably Cursed Blade. 5 model wych units with nets in the main Red Grief battalion in venoms along with bikers. I've found 5 man wych units with nets to be great at tying up units that aren't strong in melee, or charging vehicles even if you can't tie them up with nets.
The Patrol will have a 20 model wych unit in the webway to come in on turn 2(they'll already have reroll charges from PFP, no benefit from webway striking RG ones). 20 S4 base wyches with +1 S or A drug getting a 4++ in melee and only losing 1 to morale should be good. The Patrol Succubus will ride in one of the RG venoms.
Ravagers are terrific, for 125 pts they are dangerous enough that they need to be shot at and cheap enough that if you lose them you dont care. Same with talos with the proper support. I use them as distraction carnifexes to great results.
Firstly, any advice for facing Knights with pure DE (no Eldar/Harlequin allies)?
I faced a knight list recently with 2 large knights, 4 (IIRC) of the smaller knights and a few guardsmen. It just seemed like I was completely outclassed on every front. They easily outgunned me, they're a hell of a lot more durable, and even melee seems virtually useless with most units due to their catastrophic Overwatch. I didn't even feel like I had a speed advantage, given that his smaller knights are as fast as Raiders but vastly more durable. And this is on top of all my poison weapons being basically worthless against everything but the guardsmen.
Any suggestions for fighting them?
Secondly, not really related to tactics but I recently came across a conversion that I'd all but forgotten about:
Spoiler:
Any thoughts on how to best to represent this model as an HQs?
Firstly, any advice for facing Knights with pure DE (no Eldar/Harlequin allies)?
I faced a knight list recently with 2 large knights, 4 (IIRC) of the smaller knights and a few guardsmen. It just seemed like I was completely outclassed on every front. They easily outgunned me, they're a hell of a lot more durable, and even melee seems virtually useless with most units due to their catastrophic Overwatch. I didn't even feel like I had a speed advantage, given that his smaller knights are as fast as Raiders but vastly more durable. And this is on top of all my poison weapons being basically worthless against everything but the guardsmen.
Any suggestions for fighting them?
Secondly, not really related to tactics but I recently came across a conversion that I'd all but forgotten about:
Spoiler:
Any thoughts on how to best to represent this model as an HQs?
I had the same trouble facing knights, even tailoring the list taking out all the poison and maximizing the anti tank. I think we cannot absolute compete against them unless we field 3 ravagers and 3 flyers as the core of the army, but also the rest of the army should be basically anti tank oriented, maybe 3x scourges can also help.
The HQ is a nice conversion, I'd play it as an Archon with Huskblade.
18 is base, advancement doubles it
