So I am mainly an AoS player, but was thinking of getting into 40k as a sort of side project. Sometimes you just need to shoot some ray guns, instead of swinging that sword over and over, you know?
Played 40k for several editions as an Ork player. Quit around 5th edition or so. I no longer have my Orks (long story) and I am not very happy with the current version of the Ork army. Faced with the prospect of starting Orks over from scratch, I feel like if you are going to buy (or in my case, REbuy) and paint that many models, you should really love what you are building, and that's just not where I'm at right now.
Cue the Drukhari. Always thought they had a cool concept for an army. Thinking about giving them a whirl. Just starting my preliminary research - already hitting 1d4chan, YouTube, etc. Thought I would see what you folks had to say.
1) how are pure Drukhari armies performing these days?
2) how dependent on CP's are they?
3) what's the usual model count for a 2000 pt army these days? How many infantry and vehicles?
4) having so many large flying vehicles seems like a pain to transport. Is this true and what do you to counter that?
5) how many, and what sorts of detachments do you use?
I guess that's enough to get me started. Thanks in advance!
1) Pure is really good, very competitive and has many different competitive builds
2) All DE armies can easily get 8-9CP without trying, there is no reason to not take at least 1 battalion, and 8CP is enough to make them work
3) Model count depends on your list, there has been comp list with 15x5 kabals and 15 venoms, there has been comp lists with 3x5 kabals and the rest vehicles (3 ravagers, 3 venoms, 6 flyers) But in general you want 3 troops no matter what, if you are going for comptetition that oculd be Wracks or Kabals, wyches do work, but are harder to play and for a new player kabals or coven is best. But normally you want more than 3 kabals unless you go vehicles heavy, you can as well mix, Kabal and coven for Talos/wracks/ravager/kabals, etc.. so with vehicles anywhere from 30 to 90 models
4) Just get a plastic storage bin and you are fine, its not a problem when you only have 2300-2500pts, i have 10k points and it all fits in 4 bins (I'll link you what i get), but i also hot glue foam board and sheet metal on the bottoms and magnets on all my bases
5) This is back to number 3, it really comes down to you playstyle and what you want, 1 battalion and 1-2 specialist (heavy/flyer/elite) or 2 battalions. Its very common to go all into Kabal or Coven, its as common to go a mix.
Kabal are your fast, fragile, shooting units. Death by 1000 cuts and you have a lot of redundancies so if 1 or 2 dies you dont care.
Coven is your Nurgle of DE, high toughness, high wounds, good save (4++) melee is very strong (str 5-8) with limited shooting (Mostly just Talos 2D3 shots or Wracks 1 shot per 5) it is common to take kabal with them for long range support, it is more common to take Harlequins with them as Coven doesnt use a lot foCP and harlequins/Kabals uses more.
What i would suggest for a beginner?
You will for sure want to get at least 2 boxes of kabals and make 4x5 and 4 venoms, get 2 Archons as well, that will be you basic Battalion, this will be around 500-600pts depending if you give them blaster/shredders or nothing, the more venoms+kabals you have the more they work, having 1-3 doesnt do much, 4 or more and you start to feel them, but reall if you can get more thats good. For each box of Kabals you can get 2 Venoms for them, a lot of players think 6-7 is the sweet spot if you bring other things. After that you'll want some good fire power, Ravagers and or Flyers. I personally like the Flyers better as they have a -1 to be hit already on them for 10pts more, but ravagers are for sure more damaging. Ravagers are still extremely good and many will take both. But if you had to pick just 1 or the other, its up to you, go by what you like the playstyle better.
As a new player being built a list pure DE 1 subfaction this is what i tell most to build
So something like this: PS its 1500 ish points, give or take 50pts, so now you have 500pts of flavor you can add. It also works well for 1500-1750 point events. Good allies are Coven Grots or Talos, Quins Skyweavers, or CWE Airwing or Fire prism spearhead
Archon
Archon
Kabal x5 (a blaster/shredder)
Kabal x5 (a blaster/shredder)
Kabal x5 (a blaster/shredder)
Kabal x5 (a blaster/shredder)
Kabal x5 (a blaster/shredder)
Kabal x5 (a blaster/shredder)
Venom
Venom
Venom
Venom
Venom
Venom
RWJF x2 DC RWJF x2 DC
Spear head
Archon
Ravager x3 DC Ravager x3 DC Ravager x3 DC
I'd rather hate to be a downer but I don't think we touched on my previous match-up vs tau that went horribly. It's not just the riptides but all the drones. Unless he used them incorrectly which is possible those heavy burst cannons and railguns or missiles just tear through our forces like they're made out of wet toilet paper. I want to fight at range but anti tank and heavy burst cannons have a lot of range. Only idea I have is swamp the board with bodies or something and give em dark lances and/or blasters with obsidian rose. After that just go for a list with max dissies and pray for the best. I might sub shredderborn in venom for the somewhat cheaper 30 dsing scourge with 18" shardcarbines. I need some viable way to handle tau drones without huge worry. Of course it might be worse vs other opponents like custodes to have poison but tau are really getting on my nerves. The other issue is besides dissies our longest range anti-infantry in any massive form is at the 18" Mark. That's just within range of a whole battleline. Shardcarbines, mandrakes and obsidian rose shredderborn in venom seem the best choice vs tau infantry and drones.
Either way going durable and semi cheap, fragile but distant or expendable, cheap and numerous could be legit.
Honestly it's times like this I wish they didn't nerf splinter cannons into the ground. Imagine if they were heavy 6 or assault 6 on vehicles. I'd take a lot more venom but instead you gotta take em close and hope they have nothing of value inside or they die and it'll be costly.
flamingkillamajig wrote: I'd rather hate to be a downer but I don't think we touched on my previous match-up vs tau that went horribly. It's not just the riptides but all the drones. Unless he used them incorrectly which is possible those heavy burst cannons and railguns or missiles just tear through our forces like they're made out of wet toilet paper. I want to fight at range but anti tank and heavy burst cannons have a lot of range. Only idea I have is swamp the board with bodies or something and give em dark lances and/or blasters with obsidian rose. After that just go for a list with max dissies and pray for the best. I might sub shredderborn in venom for the somewhat cheaper 30 dsing scourge with 18" shardcarbines. I need some viable way to handle tau drones without huge worry. Of course it might be worse vs other opponents like custodes to have poison but tau are really getting on my nerves. The other issue is besides dissies our longest range anti-infantry in any massive form is at the 18" Mark. That's just within range of a whole battleline. Shardcarbines, mandrakes and obsidian rose shredderborn in venom seem the best choice vs tau infantry and drones.
Either way going durable and semi cheap, fragile but distant or expendable, cheap and numerous could be legit.
Honestly it's times like this I wish they didn't nerf splinter cannons into the ground. Imagine if they were heavy 6 or assault 6 on vehicles. I'd take a lot more venom but instead you gotta take em close and hope they have nothing of value inside or they die and it'll be costly.
Take 10 Venoms as flawed skull, start 40" away, move 19" and kill all the drones then laugh.
De relays on how cheap and fast we are, something will die for usre, make sure its when you want it to die (our speed) and make sure they wastes shots by over killing them.
Is this a stupid idea or an interesting idea. I'm not so sure and haven't play tested but what if I had 3 units of 10 mandrakes in 3 raiders (30 total). It could give mandrakes more turn 1 shooting esp with their assault weapons and if the transport should pop most will live and need to be picked off on foot as well. It might get expensive to try though what with 240 pts for vehicles but it'd saturate vehicle targets for the enemy to shoot at maybe. I'd probably just try 20 mandrakes like that but could be fun one way or another. The raiders would also allow mandrakes to re -deploy if some good melee units would rather the mandrakes not live.
I think you are right Amish. Too many pts per each single thing esp. for any non-covens dark eldar unit. Gotta run em cheap. It was just a thought I guess.
Mandrakes are fine without transports, yes they come in from T2+ but thats fine, they are still viable in doing that, tho i wouldnt take 30 of them or something crazy, but a couple 5 mans or a 10 one can pressure someone else that you are not and still do something.
Amishprn86 wrote: Mandrakes are fine without transports, yes they come in from T2+ but thats fine, they are still viable in doing that, tho i wouldnt take 30 of them or something crazy, but a couple 5 mans or a 10 one can pressure someone else that you are not and still do something.
How viable would grotesques be against IH? I'm thinking max units of 10 which are about 350 points. That's still quite hard to shift even for IH, you could swamp walkers and wrap them, probbaly beating them in CC. 40 wounds, 4++ with 6+++. MW output in CC. I think they're possibly better than Talos in this matchup
Elfric wrote: How viable would grotesques be against IH? I'm thinking max units of 10 which are about 350 points. That's still quite hard to shift even for IH, you could swamp walkers and wrap them, probbaly beating them in CC. 40 wounds, 4++ with 6+++. MW output in CC. I think they're possibly better than Talos in this matchup
Don't forget you can put 5 in a Raider. Makes them tougher turn one. And pretty much guarantees a t2 charge.
flamingkillamajig wrote: I'd rather hate to be a downer but I don't think we touched on my previous match-up vs tau that went horribly. It's not just the riptides but all the drones. Unless he used them incorrectly which is possible those heavy burst cannons and railguns or missiles just tear through our forces like they're made out of wet toilet paper. I want to fight at range but anti tank and heavy burst cannons have a lot of range. Only idea I have is swamp the board with bodies or something and give em dark lances and/or blasters with obsidian rose. After that just go for a list with max dissies and pray for the best. I might sub shredderborn in venom for the somewhat cheaper 30 dsing scourge with 18" shardcarbines. I need some viable way to handle tau drones without huge worry. Of course it might be worse vs other opponents like custodes to have poison but tau are really getting on my nerves. The other issue is besides dissies our longest range anti-infantry in any massive form is at the 18" Mark. That's just within range of a whole battleline. Shardcarbines, mandrakes and obsidian rose shredderborn in venom seem the best choice vs tau infantry and drones.
Either way going durable and semi cheap, fragile but distant or expendable, cheap and numerous could be legit.
Honestly it's times like this I wish they didn't nerf splinter cannons into the ground. Imagine if they were heavy 6 or assault 6 on vehicles. I'd take a lot more venom but instead you gotta take em close and hope they have nothing of value inside or they die and it'll be costly.
Take 10 Venoms as flawed skull, start 40" away, move 19" and kill all the drones then laugh.
De relays on how cheap and fast we are, something will die for usre, make sure its when you want it to die (our speed) and make sure they wastes shots by over killing them.
The added movement on flayed skull is simply insane. You can be everywhere turn 1 and you pretty much can always deploy conservatively. The raiders and ravagers are even excellent with a 17" move. As much as I like black heart for durability I think I like flayed skull more for the rerolls and ignore cover coupled with the added speed. Better to not be hit first. I also dabbled with a raider containing 10 mandrakes, so I could use masters of the shadowed sky and pass it onto the passengers. I am not 100% sure on the legality of this but it seems like it should work since any hit mods imparted onto a transport effect the occupants. Either way it has a 35" threat range turn 1 and really does work on drones. I have run them from reserve a lot, I own 20 and regularly use them but with the new vanguard marine stuff it's harder then you would expect to find good real estate turn 2 and I would rather use these guys turn 1. Still valid from reserves but don't knock them in a transport until you have tried it.
Edit: also to illustrate further, 10 in a flayed skull raider can move 17" then aether sail +8" then fire everyone and then pop fire and fade for a further 7" grabbing LOSblocking terrain and setting up for an assault next turn. If the anti air strat does work fine you can use that to cancel the -1 from advancing if you target something with fly.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Elfric wrote: How viable would grotesques be against IH? I'm thinking max units of 10 which are about 350 points. That's still quite hard to shift even for IH, you could swamp walkers and wrap them, probbaly beating them in CC. 40 wounds, 4++ with 6+++. MW output in CC. I think they're possibly better than Talos in this matchup
I love grots but they get hosed by anyone that knows to movement block them. Also the MW don't work on vehicles remember. Talos work better due to fly and the ability to shoot and fire and fade forward. Either way don't forget to black cornucopian a 10 man wrack unit. I don't think even our coven stuff can out last the shooting they pour out though. I would honestly play more cagey then try to rush up the gut.
I'm actually mixed if I should not go obsidian rose for the 6" shooting range boost. I mean I can see flayed skull helps with movement and its other bonuses are good but having shredders be so close to their enemy isn't ideal. They can get charged anyway sure but shredderborn in venom have their range limits. I'm honestly considering dropping them due to points as soon as I can afford better stuff. I think more dissies would work.
I'm always curious about taking dark scythe on my void ravens but I never end up trying them. It just feels random as a weapon in shots and damage and range is a little short. Obsidian rose might help them and I do find dark scythe strength, ap and at times volume of shots attractive. It's on average 4 STR 8 ap 4 d3 damage per void raven which hits harder than dissies but lacks volume of fire tho could probably hurt custodes bikes and riptides better. 12 shots between 3 void ravens would be interesting tho.
I'm mixed on grots. They are durable sure esp with prophets of flesh but I'd say prophets are better vs knights and at least last longer vs tau though tend to eat a lot of firepower but at least they take it for other units.
Coven of 12 grots have better flesh gauntlet attacks though which hurt riptides and custodes better and their normal weapons hurt tanks without inv saves better. I was actually thinking small venom with wracks would be interesting earlier but only really so you could put a haemi behind to give the venom a toughness boost. I don't think it'd help much anymore and warriors inside are better but it was just a thought.
Maybe of interest but following drukhari+harlequin alliance got crushed 0-20 by iron hands on tournament here(well everybody got crushed by IH pretty much...Only non 20-0 for the 3 IH players was 11-9 between 2 iron hands...)
Spoiler:
ARMY DESCRIPTION: Aeldari, Drukhari <Prophets of Flesh>, Harlequins <Soaring Spite>
TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 2000
COMMAND POINTS: 3+5+1 = 9
REFINED STRATEGY: Advance, Priority Orders Received, Kingslayer, Psychological Warfare, Witch Hunter, Assassinate
models that are in transports are not on the board. Ergo, nothing affects them except that they are affected while passengers by falling back as the FAQ says.
Jancoran wrote: models that are in transports are not on the board. Ergo, nothing affects them except that they are affected while passengers by falling back as the FAQ says.
I've never liked this rule. While I think you could apply this to closed transports like rhinos and so on, open topped vehicles SHOULD be able to see their leader to benefit from his/her bonus. Further more I can't believe units in open topped transports cannot overwatch, despite being able to fire in the shooting phase.
Jancoran wrote: models that are in transports are not on the board. Ergo, nothing affects them except that they are affected while passengers by falling back as the FAQ says.
I've never liked this rule. While I think you could apply this to closed transports like rhinos and so on, open topped vehicles SHOULD be able to see their leader to benefit from his/her bonus. Further more I can't believe units in open topped transports cannot overwatch, despite being able to fire in the shooting phase.
That would make sense. I'd say there's also scope for an assault vehicle rule, that allows units to disembark after the vehicle has moved.
The kabal traits are both decent. Damage 2 poison on a 6 is decent verse tanks and very solid on the primaris heavy shift of the meta but I am not sure it dethrones Flayed skull or black heart.
The wych cult test of skill seems like the winner to me. It makes cults more viable for conducting AT. Heck even their venoms wound vehicles on a 5+
The kabal traits are both decent. Damage 2 poison on a 6 is decent verse tanks and very solid on the primaris heavy shift of the meta but I am not sure it dethrones Flayed skull or black heart.
The wych cult test of skill seems like the winner to me. It makes cults more viable for conducting AT. Heck even their venoms wound vehicles on a 5+
Im a bit sad honestly, i wish the +3" movement was for wyches, that means +3" hellions, i wanted something to play differently, not more venom spam. Give Coven +1 wound and 5+++, now horde wracks, give Wyches +3" and Run and charge, now Reavers/Hellions are a thing, give coven move after disembarked, now Grots + raiders are a thing. etc.. there are so many cool options to build different armies and GW didnt do any of them.
Elfric wrote: I've never liked this rule. While I think you could apply this to closed transports like rhinos and so on, open topped vehicles SHOULD be able to see their leader to benefit from his/her bonus. Further more I can't believe units in open topped transports cannot overwatch, despite being able to fire in the shooting phase.
And models embarked on an open-topped flying transport should be able to shoot after retreating, like their transport.
Red Corsair wrote: Damage 2 poison on a 6 is decent verse tanks and very solid on the primaris heavy shift of the meta but I am not sure it dethrones Flayed skull or black heart.
Well, it's only one trait out of the two you can take for your custom kabal.
+3 Movement will come especially handy for vehicles with degrading stats. With this trait, even a Raider down to its last damage tier still has Movement 9. Not too shabby.
The kabal traits are both decent. Damage 2 poison on a 6 is decent verse tanks and very solid on the primaris heavy shift of the meta but I am not sure it dethrones Flayed skull or black heart.
The wych cult test of skill seems like the winner to me. It makes cults more viable for conducting AT. Heck even their venoms wound vehicles on a 5+
Im a bit sad honestly, i wish the +3" movement was for wyches, that means +3" hellions, i wanted something to play differently, not more venom spam. Give Coven +1 wound and 5+++, now horde wracks, give Wyches +3" and Run and charge, now Reavers/Hellions are a thing, give coven move after disembarked, now Grots + raiders are a thing. etc.. there are so many cool options to build different armies and GW didnt do any of them.
Yea I agree, I was annoyed to see them use a perk we already had access to in the same tree. I really want my hellions to be better but honestly until they get an AP on their weapon and another attack (even an impact hit or something) they just don't hit hard enough and they don't survive either. I hope they have a trait for cult that focuses on hellions and reavers (-1 to hit maybe).
Jancoran wrote: models that are in transports are not on the board. Ergo, nothing affects them except that they are affected while passengers by falling back as the FAQ says.
I've never liked this rule. While I think you could apply this to closed transports like rhinos and so on, open topped vehicles SHOULD be able to see their leader to benefit from his/her bonus. Further more I can't believe units in open topped transports cannot overwatch, despite being able to fire in the shooting phase.
"Should" is a word I waste no time using. reality is reality.
Jancoran wrote: models that are in transports are not on the board. Ergo, nothing affects them except that they are affected while passengers by falling back as the FAQ says.
I wasn't referring to the units inside the vehicle but rather the vehicle being boosted by the haemi's toughness boost (a haemi on the outside of the venom) since a venom can have that keyword. I've heard of people do this before or at least plan it out. That way you'd get T6 venoms. Of course that means they have to be haemi venoms and that might not be worth it.
That said as dumb as the no aura for units inside a vehicle is for the sake of our archon I find it far dumber the fact we can have a unit AND an hq inside the same transport and the aura doesn't effect either of them inside.
*inside a transport somewhere*
Archon: "HEY YOU GUYS WANNA BE INSPIRED!!!"
Trueborn: "Naaaa."
Archon: "Me neither now that I think about it."
@Amish: Honestly I feel no massive interest in the new rules I've seen so far. Multi-damage poison is fine yeah but without an AP of some kind it's still kind of garbage against things like riptides or vehicles. Experimental creations could be good. Test of skill could be good with hellions but they suck. Acrobatic display is good on wyches and succubus but garbage for everything else. Mobile raiders would be hilarious if added to flayed skull so that you get an extra 6" move (unless they will FAQ that).
Wait i'm confused how this all works now that I see it say obsessions. Can somebody give me an idea here as I only have the rulebook and dark eldar codex.
The kabal traits are both decent. Damage 2 poison on a 6 is decent verse tanks and very solid on the primaris heavy shift of the meta
Have fun either rolling every single splinter shot individually or else just having the Primaris player allocate the 2-damage shots to wounded Primaris.
The kabal traits are both decent. Damage 2 poison on a 6 is decent verse tanks and very solid on the primaris heavy shift of the meta
Have fun either rolling every single splinter shot individually or else just having the Primaris player allocate the 2-damage shots to wounded Primaris.
You have to do same pools, you cant do 1D then a 2D then a 1D, etc...
The kabal traits are both decent. Damage 2 poison on a 6 is decent verse tanks and very solid on the primaris heavy shift of the meta
Have fun either rolling every single splinter shot individually or else just having the Primaris player allocate the 2-damage shots to wounded Primaris.
You have to do same pools, you cant do 1D then a 2D then a 1D, etc...
You can't go first all 2d's, then 1d's and follow actually rules though...
The kabal traits are both decent. Damage 2 poison on a 6 is decent verse tanks and very solid on the primaris heavy shift of the meta
Have fun either rolling every single splinter shot individually or else just having the Primaris player allocate the 2-damage shots to wounded Primaris.
You have to do same pools, you cant do 1D then a 2D then a 1D, etc...
Unless I've missed an FAQ somewhere, there is no requirement in the rulebook to resolve wounds in pools based on damage.
A screenshot on Skari's Youtube feed has Drazhar's new Master of Blades ability adding "1 to wound rolls for friendly Incubi Units within 6" of this model"....not too shabby.
Red Corsair wrote: Yea that's already been spoiled on the Warhammer Community page.Your right though it is tasty, it should make incubi a bit more playable.
It's also been implied that the whole squad of incubi get Precision Strikes, which would be TASTY and make them an actual anti-elite unit in Warhammer 8th.
Pretty pretty please give me 2 damage on all wounds of 6.
Red Corsair wrote: Yea that's already been spoiled on the Warhammer Community page.Your right though it is tasty, it should make incubi a bit more playable.
It's also been implied that the whole squad of incubi get Precision Strikes, which would be TASTY and make them an actual anti-elite unit in Warhammer 8th.
Pretty pretty please give me 2 damage on all wounds of 6.
If precision strike didn't change it would be 3 damage on 6's lol. I don't think it is much to ask for when you see the pure cancer coming out of the marine books lately lol.
the_scotsman wrote: It's also been implied that the whole squad of incubi get Precision Strikes, which would be TASTY and make them an actual anti-elite unit in Warhammer 8th.
Pretty pretty please give me 2 damage on all wounds of 6.
The question is whether the +2 damage for Incubi will trigger on wound rolls of 6+, or unmodified rolls of 6.
Away from books right now, but IIRC, the current rule for Incubi says 6+. Meanwhile, the new Drazhar has Precision Strikes on an unmodified 6, which introduces some inconsistency between Drazhar and his Incubi. Are Incubi about to be brought in line with Drazhar's new rule?
Test of skill says attack correct so does that specifically mean melee attack? If it's just an attack perhaps a blaster shot could get boosted as well. It'd make the most sense actually. They specified with a melee weapon on incubi so i'm guessing blasters on reaver jetbikes with be boosted for Test of Skill.
Something tells me Artists of the Flesh would annoy the crap out of my tau opponents at the GW. It would significantly lower the damage of heavy burst cannon at least.
The Webway one would also be pretty cool if you wanted to spam warrior blobs and throw them out of the webway at the enemy. It'd really help that blaster spam warrior army I was thinking of before. If I take 2 kabals with that obsession I could easily fit four 20 man warrior units into DS and get blasters on all of em. Shredders might be trickier though.
Dark technomancers and Experimental creations is pretty awesome. Venoms that wound infantry on a 2+ and are 2 damage. Raiders that wound tanks on a 4+ at 3 damage when armed with dissies. Talos with haywires doing mortals on 3's and d3 mortals on 5's as well as wounding most tanks on a 4+ and infantry on a 3+ at -2 & 2 damage in addition. Yea, I know what my new coven trait is for a while. I finally might finish my reaper conversions too. D6 shots still swings a bit, but wounding most things on a 2+ at -4 d6+1 damage on a t7 (near a haemi) 12 wound platform is pretty solid as an alternate to ravagers.
Red Corsair wrote: Dark technomancers and Experimental creations is pretty awesome. Venoms that wound infantry on a 2+ and are 2 damage. Raiders that wound tanks on a 4+ at 3 damage when armed with dissies. Talos with haywires doing mortals on 3's and d3 mortals on 5's as well as wounding most tanks on a 4+ and infantry on a 3+ at -2 & 2 damage in addition. Yea, I know what my new coven trait is for a while. I finally might finish my reaper conversions too. D6 shots still swings a bit, but wounding most things on a 2+ at -4 d6+1 damage on a t7 (near a haemi) 12 wound platform is pretty solid as an alternate to ravagers.
Oh I just thought that was only overwatch. Apparently it's also shooting phase. That is indeed a nice obsession to get.
I think you said it wrong but yeah mortals on a 3 vs vehicles but it's 2 mortal wounds right whereas 5's and 6's are d3+1 mortal wounds. Honestly that right there might be the winner of the new obsessions.
I think you said it wrong but yeah mortals on a 3 vs vehicles but it's 2 mortal wounds right whereas 5's and 6's are d3+1 mortal wounds. Honestly that right there might be the winner of the new obsessions.
No, the +1 damage wouldn't make it 2 mortal wounds or D3+1, as a mortal wound is separate to 'damage'.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Test of skill says attack correct so does that specifically mean melee attack? If it's just an attack perhaps a blaster shot could get boosted as well. It'd make the most sense actually. They specified with a melee weapon on incubi so i'm guessing blasters on reaver jetbikes with be boosted for Test of Skill.
That'll be very useful on disintegrator cannons. Now they'll be wounding T6+ on a 4+.
Venoms will be wounding vehicles on a 5+. Kind of weird when you think about it, but very welcome. Sometimes you only need to deal one wound.
Pre-orders are up, and it seems that you cannot order Drazhar or Incubi on their own. You have to buy the boxed set, including all the Craftworlds models you don't even need. They even removed the old models. I, for one, will not be encouraging GW when they go down that path. Guess I'll keep using my old counts-as Drazhar.
So I have been really putting some more thought into Dark Technomansers and I have to say, it actually really helps wracks and haemonculi out a bit.
For example, I still wince a bit at the 11 pt cost of liquifiers, however you can get one on the acothyst and another in the unit at 5 models, which fits into the venom. This unit now reminds me a bit of the old scalpel squadron in theme. With a 16" move you can really get where you want and even pick off characters that aren't being played with extra care. Very fluffy. 2d6 auto hits that are ap -d3 with a +1 to wound and 2 damage is very solid. Sure it's an 8" range, but again, venoms move a whopping 16" with fly.
Another weapon I have been eyeing are hex rifles. Trash before, but again with a +1 to wound and damage they now wound most characters on a 3+ and others on a 2+ with -1 and 2 damage and a mortal wound triggering on a 5+. This actually gives the army a sniper ability that's worth a look. They also aren't trash verse other targets now as well since they will wound most vehicles on a 4+ and 2 damage in addition to the mortal chance.
Sadly the ossefactor is still lacking. But it's very interesting.
I also have really been eyeing reapers again. I totally forgot they can fire a 2d6 s6 profile, which makes it useful for multiple roles. It wounds infantry on a 2+ but can also overcharge for primaris to again wound on a 2+ at 2 damage. You can still fire the beam at heavier targets.
I actually like that cult and coven got the most, I wish kabal had better traits as well, but if they were to drop the ball on one it's best there since they already had 4 solid traits. 2 of which highly competitive.
Incubi/Drazhar have gotten all the attention in the previews but Coven seem to be by far the biggest winners in this release (at least in terms of DE).
SideSwipe wrote: What do people think of our strategems? I've only played a few games but to me it seems fire and fade is our standout.
We have a large amount of good and useable stratagems for all 3 types of <factions> not all lists will use them all ofc. But whats nice about ours is, we dont need to build a detachment/combo/list to make use of them.
SideSwipe wrote: What do people think of our strategems? I've only played a few games but to me it seems fire and fade is our standout.
Some pretty good stuff. I actually started playing Drukhari mainly because I loved the Obsidian Rose's stratagem ("Failure Is Not An Option"). It's rather situational, but nice to have at your disposal. "Cruel Deception" is pricey but very useful too, if you have a unit with enough special/heavy weapons to get good use out of it.
"Hunt From The Shadows" is a bit lackluster compared to the Imperial Guard's equivalent "Take Cover", but also useful. And of course "Lightning-Fast Reactions", which I love to use on my Voidraven or Razorwings for a total of -2 to hit.
Some stratagems seem good but are wasted on subfactions that can't get much use out of them. E.g., the character-sniping stratagem "Esoteric Kill", only usable by Covens, which are rather lacking in long-range firepower.
Non-Drukhari players love to complain about "Agents of Vect" being overpowered. I've never used it myself; its CP cost is very high, it may fail to even trigger, and it may turn out to not even be necessary. Not sure what the fuss is all about. "But it can turn the tide of battle!" some will inevitably point out. Sure, dude. So can the 1 CP stratagem that you're using right now and that I'm spending 4 CPs to deny. Just grin and bear it, and you'll be the one laughing when I run out of CPs way before you do.
Looks like 1d4chan has the full suite of custom obsessions.
Hilariously it seems the "sexy sixes" combo that gw touted for wyches is illegal (you can't take both the 6 to hit and 6 to wound bonus abilities, too much randopower for one army to have o guess).
Slashing+Test seem to me to be the best combo and maybe the best traits period for a pure cult army. "How do I kill big stuff with big armor saves" is my wyches eternal struggle, and I think a bunch of free MWs and +1 to wound versus everything with 10+ wounds sounds like a good way to do that.
Shooty covens obviously love technomancers+experimental.
I doubt the solo traits for cult and covens will displace Cursed Blade and PoF for defensive utility. Blade unlocking max blobs for a bunch of units and PoF just being generally amazing and having good traits and bonuses just out weighs the single defensive traits.
Bunch of largely pointless LD stuff. Too many armies just don't give a crap about LD.
The coven Regeneration trait might be fun with a grotesque/Talos build into certain matchups that don't care about pof +1 invulnerable.
@guardsman: while good lightning fast reactions has some issues with dark eldar. You see we tend to go for msu builds because we're so fragile. Also keep in mind with some opponents with long range weapons (like 36" range or better that can just fire at another target esp. Since we're not best at being fully blocked in los) or stupid good bs (looking at you custodes) it doesn't really matter. Sadly the other issue is -1 to hit doesnt work on covens. I mean it's fun but it's nowhere near the harlie equivalent where you can take a bike unit with -1 to hit base and add their variant of the stratagem for a total of -2 to hit and base 4+ inv. It's so good I honestly wonder who decided to keep our reavers so costly while also being so much less durable and hit so much weaker than harlie bikes. Seriously the other eldar factions even get a special assault weapon per bike. At least update our reavers kit and drop the points cost or give us new units to contend with knights.
Anyway I apologize for the rant. I sadly haven't gotten my gw version of Phoenix rising yet so my tactics are a bit outdated and I'm not fully aware of all the new stuff. I honestly think that coven -1 damage taken per wound is gonna be amazing for grotesques. Autocannons, heavy burst cannons, 3 damage and d3 damage weapons will all end with the opponent completely frustrated at lack of hitting power vs a unit that's already durable becoming more durable.
I really think Technomancers + Master of Mutagens is better than Experimental creations. Slight loss in firepower against soft targets, increase against hard targets and a big decrease in mortal wounds taken.
I also like dark harvest. I think for me the constant will obviously be Dark Technomancers and I'll be mi9xing up the secondary trait.
Even ossefactors improve quite a bit from DT becoming damage 2 and even hurting vehicles on a 5+ lol. That is till such a weird gun though. Hex rifles also are pretty great, I like the idea of venom squads with a hex rifle and ossefactor, plus hex rifles on all my hemis. We can actually snipe fairly well now.
the_scotsman wrote: Hilariously it seems the "sexy sixes" combo that gw touted for wyches is illegal (you can't take both the 6 to hit and 6 to wound bonus abilities, too much randopower for one army to have o guess).
That's a really odd and arbitrary restriction, IMO. Sure, exploding 6's to hit give you more opportunities to roll 6's to wound, but ultimately these two abilities are only as good as the sum of their parts, not better. Precise Killers isn't even that great; quite frankly, a single point of AP on an unmodified wound roll of 6 is rather lackluster. If it were two points of AP, it would be worth taking.
Slashing+Test seem to me to be the best combo and maybe the best traits period for a pure cult army. "How do I kill big stuff with big armor saves" is my wyches eternal struggle, and I think a bunch of free MWs and +1 to wound versus everything with 10+ wounds sounds like a good way to do that.
Agreed. And since Test of Skill does not apply only in the Fight phase, it will see a lot of use on Razorwings and Voidravens.
Deadly Deceivers is mostly useless. Charge after falling back? For Kabalites? Would much rather shoot, thank you very much. And that "roll a single, solitary D6 when being charged, cause one (1) mortal wound on a roll of 6" ability is hardly worth the ink that it took to print it into the rulebook.
Soulbound is good for giving 6+++ to vehicles (should steal some Black Heart players away from Vect's bony embrace), but the "re-roll 1's for Feel No Pain" will only save one wound out of 36, so nothing to write Commorragh about.
The Art of Pain (treat the battle round as one higher for Power from Pain purposes... but only while within 1 inch of the enemy) does not, in practice, allow you to benefit from Eager to Flay (re-roll charges) ahead of time. Unfortunate.
Red Corsair wrote: I also like dark harvest. I think for me the constant will obviously be Dark Technomancers and I'll be mi9xing up the secondary trait.
Even ossefactors improve quite a bit from DT becoming damage 2 and even hurting vehicles on a 5+ lol. That is till such a weird gun though. Hex rifles also are pretty great, I like the idea of venom squads with a hex rifle and ossefactor, plus hex rifles on all my hemis. We can actually snipe fairly well now.
Yeah, the only trouble is hitting anything when your wracked generally have to be on the move.
Meta setup will mist likely be 2x liquifiers in a venom with dark tech+experimental. +2 to wound damage 2 venom is gonna be dumb.
I already experimented a tad with liquifiers, worthless as ever. The +1 to wound and damage 2 sounds awesome, but you have to roll them separately and they just kill themselves. At 20ppm (9 for the wrack +11 for the liquifier) it's not worth it for a couple wounds.
However on the otherhand, the ossefactor is always wounding on a 2+ with -3 AP at triple the range and a much smaller risk at killing the firer. Same with the hex rifle. at 5 points and 8 points and a longer range band your keeping your stuff safer too.
Liquifiers are better on multi wound firers who don't explode every time they fire
Drager wrote: I really think Technomancers + Master of Mutagens is better than Experimental creations. Slight loss in firepower against soft targets, increase against hard targets and a big decrease in mortal wounds taken.
I just got my book today and already i'm late to the party. Yeah I was thinking technomancers + EC myself with a haemonculus behind to boost toughness of splinter cannon wielding venoms (they'd be toughness 6 venoms then so wounding on 2's vs t5 and below) or something. I suppose master of mutagens could be better vs tough units but in some cases custodes and other marines are still a bit tough. It's really a judgment call. I have issues vs custodes and I dunno how good the new space marines are. Against those armies MoM doesn't do as well i'd think. However vs monsters and custodes bikes it could be decent.
If I do kabals i'd go with webway raiders and either toxin crafters or disdain for lesser beings. This would only be if I make 2 webway raider detachments. Then I take four units of 20 warriors for 80 total popping out turn 2 with all these blasters or shredders or something. Disdain for lesser beings here just means an opponent has to wipe out a whole unit rather than allowing morale to handle it and toxin crafters would just help all the poisoned shots. Still think i'd prefer Disdain to Toxin Crafters though.
The sad thing about Kabals is that Obsidian Rose and Flayed Skull have better abilities in most cases if you go vehicle heavy. So if possible I might just avoid the new kabal obsessions and stay to the normal dark eldar codex for them. At least until I get a crap ton of warriors but that could be a while.
Agreed on slashing impact and test of skill. Test of skill would allow reavers with blasters to wound on 2's vs most monsters and 3's on heavy vehicles. It's such a mix though because while the coven's dark harvest has less restrictions the speed and numbers that Cult can do slashing impact at is a very big deal.
I have a question about the new Obsessions and RWJF
If I bring a Airwing of 3 Wych cult RWJF using the Test of Skill (+1 to wound against Monster/vehicles w/ 10+ wounds). Would it be a viable tactic? It would make the S5 Dizzy canons wound T3-4 on 2+, T5 on 4+ and T6-9 on a 5+.
Voidraven [9 PL, 165pts]: Two dark scythes, Voidraven Missiles
I was up against marines (double repulsor in a double battalion).
it was a slaughter, with the overcharged weapons on venoms, primaris got melted and overcharged raiders + flyers did short work of a repulsor.
Overcharged Hexrifles are amazing, so are haywire blasters on Talos.
I wasn't impressed by the new obsessions at first glance but when you start stacking all these buffs it really makes a difference. It might just be enough to have us keep up with the marine releases.
I need to check my skylight for eyes the next time I game because I ran a VERY similar list to yours monday night at 1500 as well
Hex rifles and ossefactors are what surprised me the most, they are actually effective. I wasn't playing primaris so my venoms overcharging were not as impressive as it sounds like your game went, but holy crap are overcharged dissies off raiders amazing. That flat 3 damage and +1 to wound is absurd lol.
I ran with specimen collectors though, so I could regen my coven units. I healed one venom one time and a grot another lol. It seems like it could be great occasionally, but it didn't come into play too much. That said, my wracks were shot with alot more dedicated firepower since my opponent new the unit could regen if they charged in. That said, I think I will give it another couple games, but I also want to try dark harvest a lot.
Oh and my 3 strong talos unit was amazing with haywire, but we knew this was gonna be a thing lol. I did also run a single talos with haywire and dual liquifiers but it didn't come into play enough to be worth the additional 22 points. It's a shame really, I will give liquifiers some more tries but that 11 points is just idiotic. I won't let it take the grin off my face about the hex rifle though, I will always put this on the unit leader and my haemis, so good for 5 points.
Good to hear from others. I hope more of you share your test games.
Red Corsair wrote: I need to check my skylight for eyes the next time I game because I ran a VERY similar list to yours monday night at 1500 as well
Hex rifles and ossefactors are what surprised me the most, they are actually effective. I wasn't playing primaris so my venoms overcharging were not as impressive as it sounds like your game went, but holy crap are overcharged dissies off raiders amazing. That flat 3 damage and +1 to wound is absurd lol.
I ran with specimen collectors though, so I could regen my coven units. I healed one venom one time and a grot another lol. It seems like it could be great occasionally, but it didn't come into play too much. That said, my wracks were shot with alot more dedicated firepower since my opponent new the unit could regen if they charged in. That said, I think I will give it another couple games, but I also want to try dark harvest a lot.
Oh and my 3 strong talos unit was amazing with haywire, but we knew this was gonna be a thing lol. I did also run a single talos with haywire and dual liquifiers but it didn't come into play enough to be worth the additional 22 points. It's a shame really, I will give liquifiers some more tries but that 11 points is just idiotic. I won't let it take the grin off my face about the hex rifle though, I will always put this on the unit leader and my haemis, so good for 5 points.
Good to hear from others. I hope more of you share your test games.
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ossefactors doing a flat 2 is huge combined with its ease to wound. I thought about running Specimen Collectors but i feel like this wouldve lent itself to a more 'traditional" coven list (melee centered instead of shooty). if i had more wracks i'd like to try running 3x10 in raiders, or 6*5 in venoms (or a combination of both)
I was planing on using specimen collectors to heal my venoms after supercharging since that works as well. But I am not sure yet. I so think it has potential to keep talos alive though. Healing d3 per kill can really save a talos.
I think we can agree dark technomancer is the real winner though, and the others are all 6 of one half dozen of another as they say. Really depends on how you want to play.
Red Corsair wrote: I was planing on using specimen collectors to heal my venoms after supercharging since that works as well. But I am not sure yet. I so think it has potential to keep talos alive though. Healing d3 per kill can really save a talos.
I think we can agree dark technomancer is the real winner though, and the others are all 6 of one half dozen of another as they say. Really depends on how you want to play.
agreed, coven really got a big bone in that book. Losing the 4++ felt bad before i played but now that i've seen how much they can punch, i dont mind it as much, the roles have changed
Red Corsair wrote: I was planing on using specimen collectors to heal my venoms after supercharging since that works as well. But I am not sure yet. I so think it has potential to keep talos alive though. Healing d3 per kill can really save a talos.
I think we can agree dark technomancer is the real winner though, and the others are all 6 of one half dozen of another as they say. Really depends on how you want to play.
agreed, coven really got a big bone in that book. Losing the 4++ felt bad before i played but now that i've seen how much they can punch, i dont mind it as much, the roles have changed
Yea, the 4++ mattered more when the game wasn't as lethal as it has become too. Now I find an army is better off going for the throat ASAP rather then trying to be more durable, with the exception of things that can actually hide or stay off the table etc. So it is nice to actually field more rounded coven lists as well. I own 30 wracks just because I love the models, now they can actually do something fairly well beyond take punches lol. I am hoping liquifiers see a point decrease in CA, have to wait and see, man I remember in 5th when those things were crazy good for a hot minute.
Voidraven [9 PL, 165pts]: Two dark scythes, Voidraven Missiles
I was up against marines (double repulsor in a double battalion).
it was a slaughter, with the overcharged weapons on venoms, primaris got melted and overcharged raiders + flyers did short work of a repulsor.
Overcharged Hexrifles are amazing, so are haywire blasters on Talos.
I wasn't impressed by the new obsessions at first glance but when you start stacking all these buffs it really makes a difference. It might just be enough to have us keep up with the marine releases.
Out of curiosity, which Artefact and Warlord Trait did you go for?
I ask since using the new traits limits your options quite a bit.
Red Corsair wrote: I was planing on using specimen collectors to heal my venoms after supercharging since that works as well. But I am not sure yet. I so think it has potential to keep talos alive though. Healing d3 per kill can really save a talos.
I think we can agree dark technomancer is the real winner though, and the others are all 6 of one half dozen of another as they say. Really depends on how you want to play.
agreed, coven really got a big bone in that book. Losing the 4++ felt bad before i played but now that i've seen how much they can punch, i dont mind it as much, the roles have changed
Yea, the 4++ mattered more when the game wasn't as lethal as it has become too. Now I find an army is better off going for the throat ASAP rather then trying to be more durable, with the exception of things that can actually hide or stay off the table etc. So it is nice to actually field more rounded coven lists as well. I own 30 wracks just because I love the models, now they can actually do something fairly well beyond take punches lol. I am hoping liquifiers see a point decrease in CA, have to wait and see, man I remember in 5th when those things were crazy good for a hot minute.
oh god, i just realised that liquifiers are 100% safe to fire with dark technomancers, totally gonna try a liquifier spam list (using enhanced aethersails + fire and fade on a raider filled with liquifier grotesques to get a turn one shooting phase with them would be funny)
vipoid wrote:
Out of curiosity, which Artefact and Warlord Trait did you go for?
I ask since using the new traits limits your options quite a bit.
I went for legendary fighter + nightmare doll. Totally not the optimal choices, after palying the game i probably wouldve gone for master nemesine + Helm of spite.
It does suck that the best warlord trait and relic are both prophets of flesh. Liek this coven didnt have enough bonuses already
oh god, i just realised that liquifiers are 100% safe to fire with dark technomancers, totally gonna try a liquifier spam list (using enhanced aethersails + fire and fade on a raider filled with liquifier grotesques to get a turn one shooting phase with them would be funny)
I'm not sure why you think they are immune to DT, I hope you're right, but I'm not sure what I missed.
oh god, i just realised that liquifiers are 100% safe to fire with dark technomancers, totally gonna try a liquifier spam list (using enhanced aethersails + fire and fade on a raider filled with liquifier grotesques to get a turn one shooting phase with them would be funny)
I'm not sure why you think they are immune to DT, I hope you're right, but I'm not sure what I missed.
oh, i'm dumb, i missplayed in my game yesterday, i was applying the mortals on the hit roll, not the wound roll. i basically played it worse for me tho, so i dont feel as bad.
Speaking of knew obsessions, this is what i'm going to be trying for the next 5-6 games. IDK what WL/Trait /Relics i want but I'm leaning towards Drazhar as the WL for now, i think the Helm of Smite as well.
Before you scream SPAM, this list is for events.
Dark Eldar Mono Faction 2000pts
Starting cp18
~~Battalion~~ Coven-Custom; Dark Technimancers, Experimental Creations
Amishprn86 wrote: Speaking of knew obsessions, this is what i'm going to be trying for the next 5-6 games. IDK what WL/Trait /Relics i want but I'm leaning towards Drazhar as the WL for now, i think the Helm of Smite as well.
Before you scream SPAM, this list is for events.
Dark Eldar Mono Faction 2000pts
Starting cp18
~~Battalion~~ Coven-Custom; Dark Technimancers, Experimental Creations
seens super solid, i'd try and make the raiders part of your coven detachment, you get more damage output with technomancers since you can chose to get the bonus agaisnt any type of enemy unit (and disintegrators doing a flat 3 is amazeballs).
Man it sucks that our listbuilding has so many restrictions, i was about to suggest replacing drazhar with the visarch to save a few points for the missing hexrifles but nope. Ynnari doesnt like coven.
From my game yesterday, this should feel pretty solid, i only ran 3 venoms and they overperformed. wounding MEQs on 2's is super strong.
I have to say, while I found the Kabal traits to be both boring and crap and Wyches never interested me in the first place, the Coven ones have made me a lot more interested in playing more Coven units - especially Wracks.
I went for legendary fighter + nightmare doll. Totally not the optimal choices, after palying the game i probably wouldve gone for master nemesine + Helm of spite.
It does suck that the best warlord trait and relic are both prophets of flesh. Liek this coven didnt have enough bonuses already
Well, on the one hand it means I'm at least more likely to traits I'd have skipped before.
On the other hand, I wish my choices weren't so limited. Most other armies would have at least 6 Warlord Traits available that aren't contingent on using the right subfaction. We have 3.
And with Hexrifles actually being decent now there's very little choice to be had with artefacts either.
Elfric wrote: I'm sure I must have missed something but with the custom obsessions you can combine two into one detachment?
Yes as long as it's the same sub faction (cult, coven or kabal and no mixing between them) and as long as there is no special restrictions to said obsessions but it lists them on each obsession.
I honestly think covens with dark technomancers and artists of flesh are the winning traits. I'd probably take a smaller detachment for artists of flesh and give it to grots mostly. Dark technomancers is good with a lot of things but probably poison covens with shooting seems to work. Technomancers certainly has some interesting potential. It's a shame we can't take dissies with covens except on raiders. They'd be great with technomancers.
Dark technomancers + Experimental creations will probably be the only non-prophet combo played competetively.
In a more casual setting, going for Hungry for flesh + Mass Torturers/DarkHarvest/Obsessive collectors could be interesting with a grotesque bomb list (deepstrike 2 max squads and get a 8" rerollable charge?)
VladimirHerzog wrote: Dark technomancers + Experimental creations will probably be the only non-prophet combo played competetively.
I would rather have DT/Master of Mutagens for competition. It just works out better in most ways, especially against things like Demon Princes and Primarchs. The damage drop off compared to EC is tiny even against EC compliant targets and the reduction in wounds taken is significant.
So that's one more failed wound per shot against <T5. Against T6+ opponents the MoM coven will do more damage than EC obviously.
Maths to back up the reduction in mortals taken
MoM 1/2 * 1/6 = 1/12
EC 2/3 * 1/6 = 1/9
Probability of taking a wound is down ~10% per volley from a venom and probability of taking 2 wounds is down even more. If you need the prob calcs let me know.
VladimirHerzog wrote: Dark technomancers + Experimental creations will probably be the only non-prophet combo played competetively.
I'm expecting Experimental Creations to be nerfed to only apply to melee weapons but we'll see.
It would make sense but that means the second half would only apply to wracks and haemies, right? Talos and Grots dont have poisoned melee weapons. But honestly, after the marines supplement, GW nerfing it would be a big slap in the face.
VladimirHerzog wrote: Dark technomancers + Experimental creations will probably be the only non-prophet combo played competetively.
I'm expecting Experimental Creations to be nerfed to only apply to melee weapons but we'll see.
It would make sense but that means the second half would only apply to wracks and haemies, right? Talos and Grots dont have poisoned melee weapons.
Yeah, they'd only get the +1S.
VladimirHerzog wrote: But honestly, after the marines supplement, GW nerfing it would be a big slap in the face.
Giving DE absolutely nothing besides the Obsessions was also a slap in the face.
If they slap you once they'll slap you twice.
Even the obsessions were a slap in the face, if only they were all thematic and at least situationally playable. But no, they just had to give kabals like 4/6 melee-focused obsessions
VladimirHerzog wrote: Dark technomancers + Experimental creations will probably be the only non-prophet combo played competetively.
I would rather have DT/Master of Mutagens for competition. It just works out better in most ways, especially against things like Demon Princes and Primarchs. The damage drop off compared to EC is tiny even against EC compliant targets and the reduction in wounds taken is significant.
So that's one more failed wound per shot against <T5. Against T6+ opponents the MoM coven will do more damage than EC obviously.
Maths to back up the reduction in mortals taken
MoM 1/2 * 1/6 = 1/12
EC 2/3 * 1/6 = 1/9
Probability of taking a wound is down ~10% per volley from a venom and probability of taking 2 wounds is down even more. If you need the prob calcs let me know.
Masters is only on vehicles/titans tho, so you need to keep that in mind, where the other combo works on everything for the most part.
VladimirHerzog wrote: Dark technomancers + Experimental creations will probably be the only non-prophet combo played competetively.
I would rather have DT/Master of Mutagens for competition. It just works out better in most ways, especially against things like Demon Princes and Primarchs. The damage drop off compared to EC is tiny even against EC compliant targets and the reduction in wounds taken is significant.
So that's one more failed wound per shot against <T5. Against T6+ opponents the MoM coven will do more damage than EC obviously.
Maths to back up the reduction in mortals taken
MoM 1/2 * 1/6 = 1/12
EC 2/3 * 1/6 = 1/9
Probability of taking a wound is down ~10% per volley from a venom and probability of taking 2 wounds is down even more. If you need the prob calcs let me know.
Masters is only on vehicles/titans tho, so you need to keep that in mind, where the other combo works on everything for the most part.
I think you've got that backwards for Master of Mutagens. It works on everything EXCEPT vehicles/titans. So it works on more stuff than Experimental Creations.
I honestly think covens with dark technomancers and artists of flesh are the winning traits.
You can't combine Artisans of Flesh with any other traits, so this combination isn't possible unfortunately.
I thought I made it clear you can't combine them. I'm saying taking two covens. Take one with artists of flesh and the other with dark technomancers. AoF is better with grotesques but for the other coven use DT and some other obsession.
I've found DT/EC to be an excellent combination. Having S8 on my Talos all the time means I care even less about Urien now than I did before, and that wasn't much to start with, but more importantly the +1 for poison weapons is great in keeping up the efficiency of Venoms once they drop to about 2 wounds and it becomes too dangerous to keep overcharging from DT.
One thing I did find surprising in my game against Raven Guard yesterday was how much I didn't miss Prophets 4++ on my Talos as they just kept on going. Admitedly my opponent didn't have much in the way of heavy firepower as he was relying on 3 standard Repulsers so we'll see how that goes against other opponents.
The xmas box set got revealed, its so bad (for entry level players)
Archon
20 kabs
1 venom
1 Razorwing jetfighter
3 Bikes
1 talos
it can't even be fielded out of the box unless you're willing to lose on obsessions
such a dumb move from GW, why didn't they just release a coven themed one?
If it contained Haemy, wracks, venom and talos i wouldve bought it in a heartbeat since it would be the only coven themed box set.
oh well. at least we got 3 different space marine ones.
VladimirHerzog wrote: The xmas box set got revealed, its so bad (for entry level players)
Archon
20 kabs
1 venom
1 Razorwing jetfighter
3 Bikes
1 talos
it can't even be fielded out of the box unless you're willing to lose on obsessions
such a dumb move from GW, why didn't they just release a coven themed one?
If it contained Haemy, wracks, venom and talos i wouldve bought it in a heartbeat since it would be the only coven themed box set.
oh well. at least we got 3 different space marine ones.
Hahahahahahaha that's amazing.
"Sorry folks, we forgot how we destroyed the rules for this faction, here have a thing you can't even use most of in one list!
I'm planning on starting a Drukhari army, whats so bad about the new box? I don't know a lot about Drukhari rules yet. Still researching, sorry if its a dumb question.
Slaul wrote: I'm planning on starting a Drukhari army, whats so bad about the new box? I don't know a lot about Drukhari rules yet. Still researching, sorry if its a dumb question.
DE are separated into 3 sub armies, Kabal, Wych, Coven. If you take a detachment with a mix of them you lose you trait bonuses. This box is mostly Kabal with 1 Wych only unit and 1 Coven only unit. This box set is literally unplayable in match play, you'll have to leave a unit out, or buy more to fill a detachment.
Slaul wrote: I'm planning on starting a Drukhari army, whats so bad about the new box? I don't know a lot about Drukhari rules yet. Still researching, sorry if its a dumb question.
DE are separated into 3 sub armies, Kabal, Wych, Coven. If you take a detachment with a mix of them you lose you trait bonuses. This box is mostly Kabal with 1 Wych only unit and 1 Coven only unit. This box set is literally unplayable in match play, you'll have to leave a unit out, or buy more to fill a detachment.
Ah okay, but as somebody who would be planning on buying more to fill out my army it seems like it would be a decent starting point (depending on cost)?
I'm still undecided on whether I want to focus on kabal or coven.
Slaul wrote: I'm planning on starting a Drukhari army, whats so bad about the new box? I don't know a lot about Drukhari rules yet. Still researching, sorry if its a dumb question.
DE are separated into 3 sub armies, Kabal, Wych, Coven. If you take a detachment with a mix of them you lose you trait bonuses. This box is mostly Kabal with 1 Wych only unit and 1 Coven only unit. This box set is literally unplayable in match play, you'll have to leave a unit out, or buy more to fill a detachment.
Technically its playable, if you either :
decide to forfeit you "chapter tactics".
play the kabals + bikes as Ynnari and pay 1 cp for an auxiliary support detachment on the talos.
play kabals as-is then pay 2cp to bring a cult aux and coven aux.
the models in it are all models a newer player will want eventually, theyre just a bad combination for a fresh start.
Slaul wrote: I'm planning on starting a Drukhari army, whats so bad about the new box? I don't know a lot about Drukhari rules yet. Still researching, sorry if its a dumb question.
Drukhari are essentially split into three factions that can Battle Brother ally with each other. There is a single DRUKHARI keyword, just like there is a ADEPTUS ASTARTES keyword. So you can take a Deathwatch HQ, a unit of Space Wolves, a unit of Grey Knights, and a unit of Blood Angels and lump them together as an ADEPTUS ASTARTES detachment and it is legal, but you get no detachment bonuses.
Drukhari are like that.
You can take the following units As KABALS (which have their own traits, relics, etc)
Archon
Court of the Archon characters
Kabalite Warriors
Ravagers
Both Transports
Both Flyers
You can take the following as WYCH CULTS
Succubus
Lelith Hesperax (only as Wych Cult of Strife)
Wyches
Hellions
Reaver Jetbikes
Beastmasters
Beasts
Both Transports
Both Flyers
And you can take the following as HAEMONCULUS COVENS
Haemonculus
Urien Rakarth (only as Prophets of Flesh)
Wracks
Grotesques
Both Pain Engines
Both Transports
All the other units, Incubi Drazar Scourges and Mandrakes, can be taken in detachments as any of the three without breaking detachment bonuses, but they don't gain detachment bonuses.
This box comes with 3 Kabal-only units, 1 Wych Cult-only unit, and 1 Coven-only unit.
You could not field it as a legal detachment that gains any detachment bonus. Its like having a bundle box with a deathwatch flyer and a bunch of space wolves.
Slaul wrote: I'm planning on starting a Drukhari army, whats so bad about the new box? I don't know a lot about Drukhari rules yet. Still researching, sorry if its a dumb question.
DE are separated into 3 sub armies, Kabal, Wych, Coven. If you take a detachment with a mix of them you lose you trait bonuses. This box is mostly Kabal with 1 Wych only unit and 1 Coven only unit. This box set is literally unplayable in match play, you'll have to leave a unit out, or buy more to fill a detachment.
Ah okay, but as somebody who would be planning on buying more to fill out my army it seems like it would be a decent starting point (depending on cost)?
I'm still undecided on whether I want to focus on kabal or coven.
Definitely not terrible. Mostly, I'm just irritated that we now have had 2 start collecting boxes, 1 campaign battle box and now 1 battleforce and we have yet to have any discount box I can use to pick up Wracks and Haemonculi. They're all plastic! Why is it always Kabalites and Reaver Bikes in every box?
I've read through the goonhammer start competing and the 1d4chan tactics pages and I think I'm leaning towards building up a 1000-1500 point Kabal list and then expanding into covens with grotesques and talos'. I'm kind of hoping grotesques get updated into plastic before I start buying/converting them
I've read through the goonhammer start competing and the 1d4chan tactics pages and I think I'm leaning towards building up a 1000-1500 point Kabal list and then expanding into covens with grotesques and talos'. I'm kind of hoping grotesques get updated into plastic before I start buying/converting them
If there isnt an update, there are really good ways to make your own, from lots and cheap, to a good amount and slightly better looking. Age of Sigmar has 2 units that works perfect for Grots, Ogres (a box of 6) and Crypt Horrors (a box of 3) the Crypt are better looking, for you get 1/2 the models, Ogres will get you lots of bodies for super cheap. If you get 3 Talos, that can give you all the bits you need for 10 Grots with the Ogres/Crypts bodies.
I am wondering if there was a collective whinge to GW that the whole "kabals/covens/cults" split was a cool idea - but it just balkanises a range which isn't huge to begin with, and consequently results in fairly uninspiring builds. At the very least give us another HQ for each faction.
Feel the horse may have bolted sadly.
+1 for wanting Wracks and Haemi in a discount box.
But really I just want more for all the factions. And Incubi/Mandrakes/Scourge to get more special rules or chapter tactics. Or in the case of Mandrakes a whole worked-up release.
I feel DT/EC venom spam is probably viable in tournaments - although a bit fiddly due to the limits above. (Although some min units of wracks are cheap obsec). Shooting vehicles and wound on 5s, doing 2 damage if they fail a save is reasonably efficient on anything but the lowest points/wound vehicles. Wounding everything else on 3s - potentially 2s for infantry - also seems good. Okay you will likely pick up mortal wounds - but I feel this isn't exactly the end of the world.
I was thinking about potentially getting into Dark Eldar instead of Harlequins. Couple of quick questions though before I make that jump on Christmas:
1. Did max squads of Kalabites in Raiders get better or are they still below mediocre for the most part?
2. Are the custom traits cool or is all the best stuff still default like Flayed Skull and Black Heart?
VladimirHerzog wrote: The xmas box set got revealed, its so bad (for entry level players)
Archon
20 kabs
1 venom
1 Razorwing jetfighter
3 Bikes
1 talos
it can't even be fielded out of the box unless you're willing to lose on obsessions
such a dumb move from GW, why didn't they just release a coven themed one?
If it contained Haemy, wracks, venom and talos i wouldve bought it in a heartbeat since it would be the only coven themed box set.
oh well. at least we got 3 different space marine ones.
I get the salt but outside of the bikes everything can be useful in a dark eldar army in that box. As you said it's bad for beginners though.
I may have to check out wych cults again. I usually just avoid them completely. Maybe if I took a small detachment of wyches but they die to a stiff breeze outside combat and as per usual most of our melee can't handle anti tank roles with all the 1 damage.
Can't remember if I told you guys but I faced guard the other day and while grotesques with artists of flesh helps vs multi damage all the single damage weapons add up so 4+ inv from prophets of flesh is still the better choice. Maybe against tau it'll be different but part of what I see is single damage weapons usually have short ranges so of all things artists of flesh might actually be great on transports or monsters with guns like talos.
Dt+ec/Mom could both work but I think there's more promise with artists of flesh still.
Some of those kabalite obsessions were pure garbage though.
The only way to work the supplements new rules is spam warrior with the webway raider ability and bring a couple and suddenly you can ds 3 full times which is technically 6 units. 120 warriors im your lines might not sound scary but where you put them is gonna throw down some nasry shooting when it gets in from ds.
I've read through the goonhammer start competing and the 1d4chan tactics pages and I think I'm leaning towards building up a 1000-1500 point Kabal list and then expanding into covens with grotesques and talos'. I'm kind of hoping grotesques get updated into plastic before I start buying/converting them
If there isnt an update, there are really good ways to make your own, from lots and cheap, to a good amount and slightly better looking. Age of Sigmar has 2 units that works perfect for Grots, Ogres (a box of 6) and Crypt Horrors (a box of 3) the Crypt are better looking, for you get 1/2 the models, Ogres will get you lots of bodies for super cheap. If you get 3 Talos, that can give you all the bits you need for 10 Grots with the Ogres/Crypts bodies.
Would the ogre box you refer to be the Ogor Gluttons?
blood reaper wrote: How are Wyches this edition? I've heard people say Kabalites and Wracks are better, but are Wyches any decent as a core of a starting army?
I'm thinking about getting into Dark Eldar and I've been wondering how good the following stuff would be as an entry point;
Just as a starting point, that is. If this is any decent, what would be good units to expand the army with?
Wyches can be used basically in 2 ways right now:
way 1: There is a cult trait that grants +1S and only 1 model can flee from morale. This makes 20 wych blob footslogging lists usable, and very visually cool. A 6++ 6+++ model with basically fearless is actually kind of a challenge to remove in large numbers.
Way 2: in min squads with Shardnets and the 3++ invuln in close combat custom trait as tie-up troops
Way 3: in mechanized squads with 3x hydras and the Test of Skill/Slashing Impact custom traits as mortal wound spamming killing troops.
I think there are pros and cons to each way. I think wyches are solidly better than wracks, arguable against Kabalites. Kabalites just have Black Heart and Ravagers going for them. Test of Skill flyers are the best way to run flyers, period.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I was thinking about potentially getting into Dark Eldar instead of Harlequins. Couple of quick questions though before I make that jump on Christmas:
1. Did max squads of Kalabites in Raiders get better or are they still below mediocre for the most part?
2. Are the custom traits cool or is all the best stuff still default like Flayed Skull and Black Heart?
1) the same. I think they're OK, but venomspam is kind of the way to go. Coven venomspam is going to be a big deal IMO in the primaris meta, I think you'll see that way more than kabals.
2) Kabal ones are thoroughly trash. Wych Cults and Covens have some good combos. Flayed Skull/Black heart is still the choice you make for Kabals.
In terms of making the most of Dark Technomancers, a Reaper could be interesting as a Ravager alternative - 2D6 shots S6 AP0 2D@24" or D6 shots S8 AP-4 (D6+1D)@36" with the +1 to Wound.
dumb_numpty wrote: In terms of making the most of Dark Technomancers, a Reaper could be interesting as a Ravager alternative - 2D6 shots S6 AP0 2D@24" or D6 shots S8 AP-4 (D6+1D)@36" with the +1 to Wound.
the problem is that reapers already suffer from their weapons being heavy. Putting them in a coven means that you get nothing to help them hit. And i personally am not a fan of variable shots on any weapon.
blood reaper wrote: How are Wyches this edition? I've heard people say Kabalites and Wracks are better, but are Wyches any decent as a core of a starting army?
I'm thinking about getting into Dark Eldar and I've been wondering how good the following stuff would be as an entry point;
Just as a starting point, that is. If this is any decent, what would be good units to expand the army with?
Wyches can be used basically in 2 ways right now:
way 1: There is a cult trait that grants +1S and only 1 model can flee from morale. This makes 20 wych blob footslogging lists usable, and very visually cool. A 6++ 6+++ model with basically fearless is actually kind of a challenge to remove in large numbers.
Way 2: in min squads with Shardnets and the 3++ invuln in close combat custom trait as tie-up troops
Way 3: in mechanized squads with 3x hydras and the Test of Skill/Slashing Impact custom traits as mortal wound spamming killing troops.
I think there are pros and cons to each way. I think wyches are solidly better than wracks, arguable against Kabalites. Kabalites just have Black Heart and Ravagers going for them. Test of Skill flyers are the best way to run flyers, period.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I was thinking about potentially getting into Dark Eldar instead of Harlequins. Couple of quick questions though before I make that jump on Christmas:
1. Did max squads of Kalabites in Raiders get better or are they still below mediocre for the most part?
2. Are the custom traits cool or is all the best stuff still default like Flayed Skull and Black Heart?
1) the same. I think they're OK, but venomspam is kind of the way to go. Coven venomspam is going to be a big deal IMO in the primaris meta, I think you'll see that way more than kabals.
2) Kabal ones are thoroughly trash. Wych Cults and Covens have some good combos. Flayed Skull/Black heart is still the choice you make for Kabals.
I'm already thinking two Battalions at the moment with one being Covens using Venoms and the Kabals spamming Raiders. Seems like they can totally spam some damage and objective capturing without losing firepower.
Which combos for Covens particularly stand out, or is the one special character dude worth not going custom?
blood reaper wrote: How are Wyches this edition? I've heard people say Kabalites and Wracks are better, but are Wyches any decent as a core of a starting army?
I'm thinking about getting into Dark Eldar and I've been wondering how good the following stuff would be as an entry point;
Just as a starting point, that is. If this is any decent, what would be good units to expand the army with?
Wyches can be used basically in 2 ways right now:
way 1: There is a cult trait that grants +1S and only 1 model can flee from morale. This makes 20 wych blob footslogging lists usable, and very visually cool. A 6++ 6+++ model with basically fearless is actually kind of a challenge to remove in large numbers.
Way 2: in min squads with Shardnets and the 3++ invuln in close combat custom trait as tie-up troops
Way 3: in mechanized squads with 3x hydras and the Test of Skill/Slashing Impact custom traits as mortal wound spamming killing troops.
I think there are pros and cons to each way. I think wyches are solidly better than wracks, arguable against Kabalites. Kabalites just have Black Heart and Ravagers going for them. Test of Skill flyers are the best way to run flyers, period.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I was thinking about potentially getting into Dark Eldar instead of Harlequins. Couple of quick questions though before I make that jump on Christmas:
1. Did max squads of Kalabites in Raiders get better or are they still below mediocre for the most part?
2. Are the custom traits cool or is all the best stuff still default like Flayed Skull and Black Heart?
1) the same. I think they're OK, but venomspam is kind of the way to go. Coven venomspam is going to be a big deal IMO in the primaris meta, I think you'll see that way more than kabals.
2) Kabal ones are thoroughly trash. Wych Cults and Covens have some good combos. Flayed Skull/Black heart is still the choice you make for Kabals.
I'm already thinking two Battalions at the moment with one being Covens using Venoms and the Kabals spamming Raiders. Seems like they can totally spam some damage and objective capturing without losing firepower.
Which combos for Covens particularly stand out, or is the one special character dude worth not going custom?
Neither named character is worth writing home about, but Prophets of Flesh is basically the other tournament-tier coven alternative (Chapter Tactic is +1 to invuln saves on all the monsters and troops). The custom covens give you the offensive build, Prophets of Flesh is the defensive build with Grots and Taloses.
blood reaper wrote: How are Wyches this edition? I've heard people say Kabalites and Wracks are better, but are Wyches any decent as a core of a starting army?
I'm thinking about getting into Dark Eldar and I've been wondering how good the following stuff would be as an entry point;
Just as a starting point, that is. If this is any decent, what would be good units to expand the army with?
Wyches were great 2 months ago. They were high risk/skill high reward.
Now? Shock assaulting primaris became a massive issue. Most of their tricks involved no escape. Doesn't fly when the other guy swings in 3 times per marine, sometimes more. With 2 wound models your not really killing them, and the volume of attacks at s4 is exactly the tool to kill wyches in assault (besides pistols which they also have lol).
blood reaper wrote: How are Wyches this edition? I've heard people say Kabalites and Wracks are better, but are Wyches any decent as a core of a starting army?
I'm thinking about getting into Dark Eldar and I've been wondering how good the following stuff would be as an entry point;
Just as a starting point, that is. If this is any decent, what would be good units to expand the army with?
Wyches can be used basically in 2 ways right now:
way 1: There is a cult trait that grants +1S and only 1 model can flee from morale. This makes 20 wych blob footslogging lists usable, and very visually cool. A 6++ 6+++ model with basically fearless is actually kind of a challenge to remove in large numbers.
Way 2: in min squads with Shardnets and the 3++ invuln in close combat custom trait as tie-up troops
Way 3: in mechanized squads with 3x hydras and the Test of Skill/Slashing Impact custom traits as mortal wound spamming killing troops.
I think there are pros and cons to each way. I think wyches are solidly better than wracks, arguable against Kabalites. Kabalites just have Black Heart and Ravagers going for them. Test of Skill flyers are the best way to run flyers, period.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I was thinking about potentially getting into Dark Eldar instead of Harlequins. Couple of quick questions though before I make that jump on Christmas:
1. Did max squads of Kalabites in Raiders get better or are they still below mediocre for the most part?
2. Are the custom traits cool or is all the best stuff still default like Flayed Skull and Black Heart?
1) the same. I think they're OK, but venomspam is kind of the way to go. Coven venomspam is going to be a big deal IMO in the primaris meta, I think you'll see that way more than kabals.
2) Kabal ones are thoroughly trash. Wych Cults and Covens have some good combos. Flayed Skull/Black heart is still the choice you make for Kabals.
I'm already thinking two Battalions at the moment with one being Covens using Venoms and the Kabals spamming Raiders. Seems like they can totally spam some damage and objective capturing without losing firepower.
Which combos for Covens particularly stand out, or is the one special character dude worth not going custom?
You have it backwards, you want the venoms to go kabal and the raiders to be coven. Dark technomancy raiders with dissies are on par with dissy ravagers for damage output. Super charging venoms sounds cool, but they kill themselves really fast and the lack of AP isn't great.
Named characters should be moot here if your taking battalions. Profits of Flesh should be going spearhead or vanguard and not taking vehicles and drazhar doesn't impact your choice.
Lelith I won't discuss since your not even going Cult from the looks.
blood reaper wrote: How are Wyches this edition? I've heard people say Kabalites and Wracks are better, but are Wyches any decent as a core of a starting army?
I'm thinking about getting into Dark Eldar and I've been wondering how good the following stuff would be as an entry point;
Just as a starting point, that is. If this is any decent, what would be good units to expand the army with?
Wyches were great 2 months ago. They were high risk/skill high reward.
Now? Shock assaulting primaris became a massive issue. Most of their tricks involved no escape. Doesn't fly when the other guy swings in 3 times per marine, sometimes more. With 2 wound models your not really killing them, and the volume of attacks at s4 is exactly the tool to kill wyches in assault (besides pistols which they also have lol).
None of my opponents actually field Primaris - they're near exclusively (infantry-heavy) Guard or mixed Battlesuit and Infantry Tau. One of them occasionally brings Space Marines, but not many Primaris.
blood reaper wrote: How are Wyches this edition? I've heard people say Kabalites and Wracks are better, but are Wyches any decent as a core of a starting army?
I'm thinking about getting into Dark Eldar and I've been wondering how good the following stuff would be as an entry point;
Just as a starting point, that is. If this is any decent, what would be good units to expand the army with?
Wyches were great 2 months ago. They were high risk/skill high reward.
Now? Shock assaulting primaris became a massive issue. Most of their tricks involved no escape. Doesn't fly when the other guy swings in 3 times per marine, sometimes more. With 2 wound models your not really killing them, and the volume of attacks at s4 is exactly the tool to kill wyches in assault (besides pistols which they also have lol).
blood reaper wrote: How are Wyches this edition? I've heard people say Kabalites and Wracks are better, but are Wyches any decent as a core of a starting army?
I'm thinking about getting into Dark Eldar and I've been wondering how good the following stuff would be as an entry point;
Just as a starting point, that is. If this is any decent, what would be good units to expand the army with?
Wyches can be used basically in 2 ways right now:
way 1: There is a cult trait that grants +1S and only 1 model can flee from morale. This makes 20 wych blob footslogging lists usable, and very visually cool. A 6++ 6+++ model with basically fearless is actually kind of a challenge to remove in large numbers.
Way 2: in min squads with Shardnets and the 3++ invuln in close combat custom trait as tie-up troops
Way 3: in mechanized squads with 3x hydras and the Test of Skill/Slashing Impact custom traits as mortal wound spamming killing troops.
I think there are pros and cons to each way. I think wyches are solidly better than wracks, arguable against Kabalites. Kabalites just have Black Heart and Ravagers going for them. Test of Skill flyers are the best way to run flyers, period.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I was thinking about potentially getting into Dark Eldar instead of Harlequins. Couple of quick questions though before I make that jump on Christmas:
1. Did max squads of Kalabites in Raiders get better or are they still below mediocre for the most part?
2. Are the custom traits cool or is all the best stuff still default like Flayed Skull and Black Heart?
1) the same. I think they're OK, but venomspam is kind of the way to go. Coven venomspam is going to be a big deal IMO in the primaris meta, I think you'll see that way more than kabals.
2) Kabal ones are thoroughly trash. Wych Cults and Covens have some good combos. Flayed Skull/Black heart is still the choice you make for Kabals.
I'm already thinking two Battalions at the moment with one being Covens using Venoms and the Kabals spamming Raiders. Seems like they can totally spam some damage and objective capturing without losing firepower.
Which combos for Covens particularly stand out, or is the one special character dude worth not going custom?
You have it backwards, you want the venoms to go kabal and the raiders to be coven. Dark technomancy raiders with dissies are on par with dissy ravagers for damage output. Super charging venoms sounds cool, but they kill themselves really fast and the lack of AP isn't great.
Named characters should be moot here if your taking battalions. Profits of Flesh should be going spearhead or vanguard and not taking vehicles and drazhar doesn't impact your choice.
Lelith I won't discuss since your not even going Cult from the looks.
The goal was to get the most of Splinter Rack Raiders with those max squads getting free rerolls on their base weapon. I hadn't even start chatting how to equip the max squad (probably 2 Blasters and a Dark Lance, but I'm probably wrong on that).
You can absolutely field Kabalites in raiders, the raiders can be from another obsession though. You generally don't want the dark lance mixed with blasters, the ranges and weapon types don't mix well. I have often run two 5 man squads with a blaster each sharing a single raider. You get the same 2 specials as 10 men but with another free leader, are basically immune to moral and you have twice the tactical flexibility. I don't like splinter racks personally. In fact, I tend to keep my transports as cheap as possible often fielding a splinter canon and twin rifle on my venoms over dual canon as well. It's pretty common actually. You want more vehicles and squads, DE do MSU really well.
Your preferred kabal really matter too, generally it's going to be one of the 4 originals since the new ones are really bad (I generally am positive about vetting things but these just don't work with Kabal). The most popular are Black Heart and Flayed Skull, basically your defensive and offensive choices.
blood reaper wrote: How are Wyches this edition? I've heard people say Kabalites and Wracks are better, but are Wyches any decent as a core of a starting army?
I'm thinking about getting into Dark Eldar and I've been wondering how good the following stuff would be as an entry point;
Just as a starting point, that is. If this is any decent, what would be good units to expand the army with?
Wyches were great 2 months ago. They were high risk/skill high reward.
Now? Shock assaulting primaris became a massive issue. Most of their tricks involved no escape. Doesn't fly when the other guy swings in 3 times per marine, sometimes more. With 2 wound models your not really killing them, and the volume of attacks at s4 is exactly the tool to kill wyches in assault (besides pistols which they also have lol).
None of my opponents actually field Primaris - they're near exclusively (infantry-heavy) Guard or mixed Battlesuit and Infantry Tau. One of them occasionally brings Space Marines, but not many Primaris.
Tau is pretty harsh on cult too though to be fair. Battle suits are not infantry so you cannot trap them which is really harsh since you have to survive the charge to begin with and you can't even lock them. You can lock the infantry though, but again, you have to survive and then not kill them. Mini marines are more managable for sure, but shock assault still makes them much scarier too mind you, and they all pack pistols, but it's definitely better then primaris for sure. Glad your having success though, I love wych cult, you definitely don't see many players using a lot of the cult stuff beyond reavers.
Huh. I misread my friend's codex then. I had thought I read you get one Special at 5 dudes and then another Special + Heavy at 10 dudes. That made it a neat incentive to run 10 man squads.
Whelp that throws a wrench in that, especially since there really isn't a lot of encouragement from Strats to run 10 dudes either.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Huh. I misread my friend's codex then. I had thought I read you get one Special at 5 dudes and then another Special + Heavy at 10 dudes. That made it a neat incentive to run 10 man squads.
Whelp that throws a wrench in that, especially since there really isn't a lot of encouragement from Strats to run 10 dudes either.
You read it correctly, it just isn't worth taking a heavy on the 10 because it will be 36" range and the blasters 18" meaning your going to be moving to get range and the dark lance isn't worth 20 points for a BS 4+ shot usually. That said, it is by no means terrible and I encourage you to try it out for yourself. DE have loads of ways to play. I generally tend to keep my troops lower profile and as cheap as possible because they die really easy when they draw attention. More targets (MSU) is the easiest way to maximize your durability.
Edit: Just to demonstrate 10 guys with 3 weapons, a raider with racks and a dissy 204pts. a triple dissy ravager and a 5 man squad (no special) in a venom is 220pts. It's very similar firepower, the raider team gets 14 splinter shots and 3 anti tank + the dissy while the venom and ravager gets 20 splinter shots and 3 dissies. But your spreading your threats out.
But like I said, you can make it work, it largely depends on style. I will add though, you are better off putting lances on vehicles whenever possible rather then on infantry. But if you can't get another vehicle in and have the points then I'd say squeeze one into a squad.
@red corsair: you actually probably saved me some money with your insights. Of course these days affording models is tough nevermind trying to be competitive. It sucks to be poor in this hobby.
I still feel like blasters cost too much. At least if you spam warriors and take the webway obsession you can get a bunch of blasters in an opponents face fast but perhaps running em on foot as obsidian rose would cost less command points and do more. Plus deep striking so many points does limit things.
I think the test of skill razorwings and the coven dissie raiders would do more though. So perhaps the foot slogging warriors with blasters isn't as good overall. Perhaps I should try both. Randomly generated damage isn't as good as flat 2 or 3 damage in my experience however.
I agree with you on heavy weapons on ravagers but honestly the more I play the game the more I hate dark lance and blasters and love dissies. The range, armor piercing and volume of fire as well as damage makes dissies good esp. With archons re-rolling ones to hit. Random damage is just that and so often the opponent will just re-roll an inv save and then nothing matters which is why volume of fire is great. Also if an opponent has an inv save dissies usually negate armor enough for the inv save to be used. Range is just great for us because we are glass cannons. Cant stress these weapons and their failings or successes enough. I wish other weapon choices were nearly as viable as dissies but they're not.
So I like dark eldar. Don't get me wrong. That said for pure dark eldar the best builds seem to be disintegrators spammed as much as possible with various obsessions but dissies nonetheless. Grotesques and talos might still be ok but dissies are just too good and the issue with shredders is shredderborn in venoms cost a lot and are too fragile for what they are. As soon as i get the cash i will probably drop the shredders unless i try em out in a kabal ds list with the webway obsession but i doubt it is worth it.
flamingkillamajig wrote: So I like dark eldar. Don't get me wrong. That said for pure dark eldar the best builds seem to be disintegrators spammed as much as possible with various obsessions but dissies nonetheless. Grotesques and talos might still be ok but dissies are just too good and the issue with shredders is shredderborn in venoms cost a lot and are too fragile for what they are. As soon as i get the cash i will probably drop the shredders unless i try em out in a kabal ds list with the webway obsession but i doubt it is worth it.
I understand that there are some very good players who use Shredders, but the issue with the weapon remains that it is an anti-horde option in an army that already has that in abundance, and actually needs a way to deal with heavy armour.
Dissies are not "too good" in my opinion, the problem is that Dark Lances are too expensive. I don't understand why the new Obsessions didn't include some option to buff darklight, such as maybe re-rolling damage on Lances.
Im playing pure Coven, which Ive always done since starting the army. I get that Dissies are the gak. I just love the Coven too much to do it. So i have 3 Raiders w them, but otherwise its Coven-tastic brigade. Im pretty torn on using the new stuff from awakening. Prophets of flesh is so good!
flamingkillamajig wrote: So I like dark eldar. Don't get me wrong. That said for pure dark eldar the best builds seem to be disintegrators spammed as much as possible with various obsessions but dissies nonetheless. Grotesques and talos might still be ok but dissies are just too good and the issue with shredders is shredderborn in venoms cost a lot and are too fragile for what they are. As soon as i get the cash i will probably drop the shredders unless i try em out in a kabal ds list with the webway obsession but i doubt it is worth it.
I understand that there are some very good players who use Shredders, but the issue with the weapon remains that it is an anti-horde option in an army that already has that in abundance, and actually needs a way to deal with heavy armour.
Dissies are not "too good" in my opinion, the problem is that Dark Lances are too expensive. I don't understand why the new Obsessions didn't include some option to buff darklight, such as maybe re-rolling damage on Lances.
The issue is more the way I run shredderborn in venoms they are vulnerable to getting charged. I could maybe run a unit to run interference as a shield for them (bunch of reavers) but that would get expensive and vs shooting is worthless except maybe to tie down the remaining survivors (I suppose I could still try it though but it's so costly). Even if that isn't a problem though it often doesn't take much to take out 3 venoms. I had one opponent kill 2 or 3 of em in one shooting phase like it was nothing once. If I take em it'll either be in raiders or on foot and will definitely be basic warriors. Trueborn are practically twice the price per body with the same durability per body. That's why my idea is to maybe spam warriors. Perhaps if I run the webway obsession and drops four 20 man squads of warriors with shredders then they could do some decent damage. I pretty much already have 16 shredders right now. They'd also have to deal with all the poison and I don't think the opponent would appreciate that many shots. Poison shooting is kinda balls against good armor saves though and also pretty bad at multiple damage.
I honestly don't get GW. They give us new incubi but the rules are the same except for drazhar. Most of the kits they released were either promised from 5th ed or just the re-released wracks with one new weapon choice that is currently crap. I just wish we could see new reaver jet-bike weapons, maybe new melee weapons for hellions and incubi or something, perhaps allow "mercenary" units some sort of personal unit-wide obsession.
Dissies fit the role that most of our army needs badly in many situations. They have good AP value so can generally cut through most armor but not all of it which is usually irrelevant in the case of units with invulnerable saves, they have really good range for dark eldar being the only anti-infantry (or at least MEQ infantry) weapon with 36" and is also an assault weapon on vehicles which is huge because you'll get shot at less due to speed and range of your units (splinter cannons are rapid fire 3 at 36" and should be assault 6 on vehicles so they've been ruined in 8th) and they do multiple flat damage of at least 2 (meaning more shots probably get through vs units with invulnerable saves and they aren't as likely to command point re-roll their inv. save). Unless you're fighting wave serpeants with that damage reduction shield or a massive horde army then dissies are generally the best weapon we have and they're far more flexible than other weapons we have. Haywire only effects vehicles, poison only really hurts non-vehicles and it often doesn't do multiple damage and has no AP usually and range is poor, shredders are best vs infantry and often not much else and their range is really short and dark lances are good against normal vehicles but struggle against vehicles with invulnerable saves.
flamingkillamajig wrote: So I like dark eldar. Don't get me wrong. That said for pure dark eldar the best builds seem to be disintegrators spammed as much as possible with various obsessions but dissies nonetheless. Grotesques and talos might still be ok but dissies are just too good and the issue with shredders is shredderborn in venoms cost a lot and are too fragile for what they are. As soon as i get the cash i will probably drop the shredders unless i try em out in a kabal ds list with the webway obsession but i doubt it is worth it.
We have some of the most viable comp units in the game, you dont need Trueborns also. Yes we spam, but DE has always been a spam army b.c we are cheap and paper, thats kinda the points of DE (other than Caoven, but they still are cheap and weak enough to want to take a lot too).
So heres a question ive been having about running spammed warrior with blasters for a total of 24 blasters in 6 units of 20 warriors. I'm unsure if it's still viable and whether I go one of 2 routes.
One route is obsidian rose. Blasters get 24" assault weapons so can advance and still shoot with solid range and not much negatives. At short range of everything they get a bit vulnerable all around though but they are cheap and will be able to eat wounds no problem and allowing damage from turn 1.
The other route I take the webway stratagem for 2 units and do it twice. I then show up at turn 2 in front of anything worthwhile and hit em with poison and blasters all over the place and when the units start taking worrying casualties then disdain for lesser beings kicks in and I can't lose more than one model from failed morale checks which should annoy the crap out of my opponent hoping the rest of the squad would just flee.
What are you doing with units of 20 warriors? kinda of a waste with no protection. I guess if your meta is toned down enough to do that then thats great! And i would go with obi rose even if you do DS them, staying in safe areas is key with large units. Also make sure to Fire and fade them into more safe areas after you shoot. And i would for sure still DS 2 of them no matter what.
I actually changed my mind somewhat since I wrote that and decided against webway unless I do some shredders. I don't think i'll take obsidian rose but I think i'll take Disdain for Lesser Beings and some other obsession and then either spam blasters or dark lances. With dark lances they may not get shot at enough to really cause issues and DfLB makes it so you can only ever lose just one warrior in a squad. You can get twice as many blasters and it's an assault weapon so you can move, advance and still fire but getting close to the enemy could be a bad idea for being charged or shot at. Usually if you're that close you'd probably be taking a lot of shots.
Honestly my only issue is while I like obsidian rose's range boost to guns I also like the DfLB obsession that forces an enemy to kill a squad down to the last model or so because failed morale won't do much of diddly.
As far as units that big the original plan was to give the 20 model warrior units dark lances but after some time I thought about giving them blasters. Issue being blaster range generally means you're in range of just about every weapon possible and maybe even charge range for some units. I also forgot too many points in DS is a waste often times and leaves you a bit lacking turn 1. Anyway i'm going back to the idea of dark lance warrior squads and possibly giving them blasters as well if the enemy comes into close range but that could get expensive in points esp. if I end up facing a heavy shooting army which these days is much of the top tier factions.
Another reason for 20 model warrior squads aside from DfLB making it more valid is that there's somewhat of a limit of how many warriors I can take in an army list. If I take a lot they need to be 20 man units. Not just that but a 6 pts t3 unit is about as spammy as dark eldar can get. I understand we often can't take a hit and want to have more numbers so that's why i'm spamming the crap out of the spam-iest unit we have. Unless they have a ton of anti-horde cutting through 120 models and then a good chunk of ravagers and flyers might take a lot longer. I think it'd be better than venoms with trueborn squads because there's more of a limit of numbers with trueborn and they cost a lot and are fragile. A dead warrior squad of even 20 isn't that expensive and it's only a small chunk of firepower.
I'm still probably gonna go for dissie spam in the future but I want something unconventional because it's more interesting. It might not win as well often times but it's more fun to play.
Its cool that Marines are getting some buffs, The beta bolters are fine, I don't mind shock assult. Doctrines cool, super doctrines? Iron hands don't bother me, they can move and shoot if they want to, but white scars and blood angels make me wonder what the point of our cults are.
White scars get +1 damage in assult doctrine on top of -1 ap. A simple tac marine gets 2 attacks str4 -1 ap 2 damage. Assult troops with chain swords get 3 attacks. Thats the same as Wytches on the first roubd of combat.
Blood Angles get an extra attack in assult doctrine. 4 attacks for a chain sword at ap -1 (and more strenght and plus 1 to wound)
Thats cool its fine that they get their toys but whats the point of Wytches now? Same number of attacks but at less strenght ap and damage. We still get an invul save in close combat which they don't (unless they bring storm shields) and can tie stuff up which they can't (unless they have a white scars warlord).
Damn I was trying to to complain, but ended up complaining. No Vigilis detachments, minimal attention in psychic awakening, and now our close combat glass hammer troops are made obsolete by basic marines.
I haven't played as much as you and barely anybody I know plays marines at my gw but outside of tau I don't have many issues and that may change as I build up my army.
Obsessive Collectors and Experimental Creations were changed.
Obsessive collectors now only triggers on unit destruction
Experimental Creations only works with Melee poisoned weapons. (edit for clarity), still get the +1 strength across the board, only the +1 to poison wound rolls applies only to poison melee weapons, assuming your strength is still higher than their toughness.
Obsessive Collectors and Experimental Creations were changed.
Obsessive collectors now only triggers on unit destruction
Experimental Creations only works with Melee poisoned weapons.
this pisses me off so much. Like why nerf it? now experimental creations litterally only affect wracks and haemies..... this is so dumb , feth GW
Jesus thats lame. There is now officially nothing in that book I am interested in using. Admittedly obsessive colletors was going to make my unit of 3 talos very hard to kill. But it wasn't as strong as double shots, an extra attack, extra ap, move and shoot heavy weapons with out penalties and re roll 1s. Oh and take an extra warlord trait or 2.
Obsessive Collectors and Experimental Creations were changed.
Obsessive collectors now only triggers on unit destruction
Experimental Creations only works with Melee poisoned weapons. (edit for clarity), still get the +1 strength across the board, only the +1 to poison wound rolls applies only to poison melee weapons, assuming your strength is still higher than their toughness.
The best part is that GW has fulfilled their obligation to give DE new models and rules.
I'm sure this will tide us over for at least another decade.
DE are for sure at a full net lost this CA/PA. Almost everyone had meaningful points drops or added rules, we had units up in points and the units that did drop still are not dropping enough to actually be good. Reavers going down is the best we got, Hellions means nothing and Grots are still the same, Ravagers and Flyers didnt need to go up at all but they did. DE hasn't even been very good in GT's every sense the SM power creep, now we will be even worst off.
With that said, its still a solid army, and hopefully some more playstyles spike out. But IDK if there is enough changes to make that possible. I feel Coven will still be very strong, moreso than Kabal now, but Wych might have a showing here and there. Incubi and Drazhar might see a bit more play now. I now i am playing Drazhar for sure for now on.
I dunno. I still think incubi aren't good enough even with the points drop esp. Since the have no sub-faction boosts. Hellion still probably aren't good enough because they cost too many points and negate no armor. With few exceptions our melee is anti infantry only or about bogging enemies down with little to no AP. Dissie jets still aren't that good compared to ravagers with dissies. Void raven might replace the jets.
Coven with dark technomancers on raiders with dissies is still there and still good. Kabal did get hit pretty hard though. I honestly don't get why they nerfed ravagers and jets but not talos or something. That's kind of a sick joke esp. Since ravagers have a limit of 3 in a 2k list and talos could get up to 9 if they wanted.
They tried to hit the soup options in CA. Black Heart Spearheads and Airwings were popping up in tons of Eldar lists, and the points changes seem tailored to nerfing those. If you're running a Kabal Battalion (or even a Battalion and Spearhead) with multiple Archons then the points have basically evened out.
I don't actually think the changes really open up any new builds for us, though. Maybe Reavers are more attractive now. I'm massively disappointed that Beasts didn't get tweaked, I was hoping they'd become viable as chaff units that we desperately need.
I'm liking the look of Mandrakes in Venoms. Something like (Brian fart, can't have 6 squads of Mandrakes, just halve all the numbers!):
Vanguard (Dark Technomancers/Master of Mutagens)
HQ Haemonculus
Elites
6x 5 Mandrakes
Dedicated Transport
6x Venom, Double Splinter Cannon
That's 970 points for solid firepower that can deal with most things, with only a 70 point tax. The Mandrakes are also dangerous against chaff on objectives in melee.
I've calculated the returns against some common targets.
T8/10+W/3+ Armour (Knight/Russ/Etc.)
Average Wounds in One Turn: 10 2/3 (Poison) + 10 (Baleblast) = 20 2/3
Assume a cost of ~500 for 24 wounds gives a return of 430 points, close to 50%, which is respectable.
ROI: ~50%
This means that if you have any other shooting for your other 1030 points you can probably down the Knight.
T7/8W/3+ Armour/5+ FnP (Nurgle Prince)
Average Princes Killed in One Turn: 2 (Poison) + 1 (Baleblast)
Assume a cost of ~150 per prince gives a return of 450 points, close to 50%, which is respectable.
ROI: ~50%
T4/2W/3+ Armour
Average Primaris Killed in One Turn: 12 (Poison) + 8 (Baleblast) = 20
For Intercessors at 17 points, this gives 340 points killed, which is only a 35% ROI, not as good as other targets, but still pretty good.
Intercessors ROI: ~35%
For Hellblasters at 33 points, this gives 660 points killed, which is a massive 68% ROI, which is obviously amazing.
Hellblaster ROI: ~68%
So for Primaris overall, we can assume ~50% RoI similar to the earlier targets.
T3/1W/5+ Armour
Average Guardsmen Killed in One Turn: 24 (Poison) + 8 (Baleblast) = 28 8/9 = 52
For Guardsmen at 4 points, this gives 208 points killed, which is 21% ROI, the lowest so far, but also pretty good against guardsmen. Killing 5 squads with half your army will seriously mess with peoples board control, or wipe a smaller supporting block of Guard Infantry.
Guardsmen ROI: ~21%
Remember this doesn't include jumping out and charging with the 'drakes, which isn't too shabby against Marines and Guradsmen either.
Burnage wrote: They tried to hit the soup options in CA. Black Heart Spearheads and Airwings were popping up in tons of Eldar lists, and the points changes seem tailored to nerfing those. If you're running a Kabal Battalion (or even a Battalion and Spearhead) with multiple Archons then the points have basically evened out.
I don't actually think the changes really open up any new builds for us, though. Maybe Reavers are more attractive now. I'm massively disappointed that Beasts didn't get tweaked, I was hoping they'd become viable as chaff units that we desperately need.
I think GW is still hating on the RWF spam from 1.0 of 8th lol. Beasts wont get touched for a bit i fear.
What do people think about running Test of Skill+Slashing Impact on the new cheaper reavers? 12 Reavers with just grav talons is 204pts, if you add in 4 blasters it's 272pts. You can save 20pts by using a heat lance but blasters are wounding big t7 monsters and vehicles on 2+, 3+ if it's t8.
36 reavers with t5 seems like a steal as long as you have enough wyches to give the bad stat drugs.
RedGriefer wrote: What do people think about running Test of Skill+Slashing Impact on the new cheaper reavers? 12 Reavers with just grav talons is 204pts, if you add in 4 blasters it's 272pts. You can save 20pts by using a heat lance but blasters are wounding big t7 monsters and vehicles on 2+, 3+ if it's t8.
36 reavers with t5 seems like a steal as long as you have enough wyches to give the bad stat drugs.
wouldnt you need 15 other wych units in order to give 3 squads of bikes painbringer? I like the concept and might try runnning 12 bikes but lets say we try and give all 3painbringer:
double battalion
succ with stimm adept,
succ,
succ,
6x wyches
thats only 10 slots for drugs.
so youre putting a ton of pts into a fragile unit in order to maximize your reavers.
wouldnt you need 15 other wych units in order to give 3 squads of bikes painbringer?
Nope. Once you get through the mandatory first round you can freely allocate.
wait, really? i thought you needed to always give all 6 before allowing for the next round. Thats pretty cool then
Yeah, it's been that way for as long as I can remember in 8th.
So test of skill seems great on flyers and other than that there's really no other wych obsession which is good for flyers. May as well run an outrider detachment with max reavers, 2 razorwings, and maybe drazhar as the HQ. Then fill out a battalion with Red Grief wyches with shardnets in raiders to help pin down units and disrupt to protect the reavers as they run around smashing stuff. I don't see slashing impact well worth it on wyches too be honest.
With 12 reavers, if you get the charge off and all get in, and if all of them are able to get within 1" of an enemy, you'd have on average 4 wounds from slashing impact and 2 wounds from grav talons even before they attack. On top of that you have bladevanes which would t7 on a 4+.
So test of skill seems great on flyers and other than that there's really no other wych obsession which is good for flyers.
i use berserk fugue as my second obsession when running an airwing, it helps in the edge cases where my flyers get charged. its super situational but its the only obsession that does anything (that and precise killers)
With 12 reavers, if you get the charge off and all get in, and if all of them are able to get within 1" of an enemy, you'd have on average 4 wounds from slashing impact and 2 wounds from grav talons even before they attack. On top of that you have bladevanes which would t7 on a 4+.
yeah i've tried them recently and they did a nice amount of damage on their charge. Slashing impact not working on vehilcles is a big downside tho.
Amishprn86 wrote: DE are for sure at a full net lost this CA/PA. Almost everyone had meaningful points drops or added rules, we had units up in points and the units that did drop still are not dropping enough to actually be good. Reavers going down is the best we got, Hellions means nothing and Grots are still the same, Ravagers and Flyers didnt need to go up at all but they did. DE hasn't even been very good in GT's every sense the SM power creep, now we will be even worst off.
With that said, its still a solid army, and hopefully some more playstyles spike out. But IDK if there is enough changes to make that possible. I feel Coven will still be very strong, moreso than Kabal now, but Wych might have a showing here and there. Incubi and Drazhar might see a bit more play now. I now i am playing Drazhar for sure for now on.
Some changes were to force more variety. Clearly you can see which units dominate and that is a points thing. So in some cases, there are units that are just too cheap. There's no way to evaluate entire army builds in a codex. Ravagers have been auto includes so frequently that its kinda hard to argue the point. i play Dark Eldar, but I'm no dummy. Those Ravagers are incredibly points efficient and when you add on abilities...geez. REALLY good for the points. Maybe to god, in all fairness.
Amishprn86 wrote: DE are for sure at a full net lost this CA/PA. Almost everyone had meaningful points drops or added rules, we had units up in points and the units that did drop still are not dropping enough to actually be good. Reavers going down is the best we got, Hellions means nothing and Grots are still the same, Ravagers and Flyers didnt need to go up at all but they did. DE hasn't even been very good in GT's every sense the SM power creep, now we will be even worst off.
With that said, its still a solid army, and hopefully some more playstyles spike out. But IDK if there is enough changes to make that possible. I feel Coven will still be very strong, moreso than Kabal now, but Wych might have a showing here and there. Incubi and Drazhar might see a bit more play now. I now i am playing Drazhar for sure for now on.
Some changes were to force more variety. Clearly you can see which units dominate and that is a points thing. So in some cases, there are units that are just too cheap. There's no way to evaluate entire army builds in a codex. Ravagers have been auto includes so frequently that its kinda hard to argue the point. i play Dark Eldar, but I'm no dummy. Those Ravagers are incredibly points efficient and when you add on abilities...geez. REALLY good for the points. Maybe to god, in all fairness.
its almost like DE has no unit variety and relies on spamming 1 good weapon. there is a reason star cannons went down to 2 shots, maybe dissies should get the same treatment
Amishprn86 wrote: DE are for sure at a full net lost this CA/PA. Almost everyone had meaningful points drops or added rules, we had units up in points and the units that did drop still are not dropping enough to actually be good. Reavers going down is the best we got, Hellions means nothing and Grots are still the same, Ravagers and Flyers didnt need to go up at all but they did. DE hasn't even been very good in GT's every sense the SM power creep, now we will be even worst off.
With that said, its still a solid army, and hopefully some more playstyles spike out. But IDK if there is enough changes to make that possible. I feel Coven will still be very strong, moreso than Kabal now, but Wych might have a showing here and there. Incubi and Drazhar might see a bit more play now. I now i am playing Drazhar for sure for now on.
Some changes were to force more variety. Clearly you can see which units dominate and that is a points thing. So in some cases, there are units that are just too cheap. There's no way to evaluate entire army builds in a codex. Ravagers have been auto includes so frequently that its kinda hard to argue the point. i play Dark Eldar, but I'm no dummy. Those Ravagers are incredibly points efficient and when you add on abilities...geez. REALLY good for the points. Maybe to god, in all fairness.
its almost like DE has no unit variety and relies on spamming 1 good weapon. there is a reason star cannons went down to 2 shots, maybe dissies should get the same treatment
Or, you know, maybe Dark Eldar could get more than 2 weapon options.
Amishprn86 wrote: DE are for sure at a full net lost this CA/PA. Almost everyone had meaningful points drops or added rules, we had units up in points and the units that did drop still are not dropping enough to actually be good. Reavers going down is the best we got, Hellions means nothing and Grots are still the same, Ravagers and Flyers didnt need to go up at all but they did. DE hasn't even been very good in GT's every sense the SM power creep, now we will be even worst off.
With that said, its still a solid army, and hopefully some more playstyles spike out. But IDK if there is enough changes to make that possible. I feel Coven will still be very strong, moreso than Kabal now, but Wych might have a showing here and there. Incubi and Drazhar might see a bit more play now. I now i am playing Drazhar for sure for now on.
Some changes were to force more variety. Clearly you can see which units dominate and that is a points thing. So in some cases, there are units that are just too cheap. There's no way to evaluate entire army builds in a codex. Ravagers have been auto includes so frequently that its kinda hard to argue the point. i play Dark Eldar, but I'm no dummy. Those Ravagers are incredibly points efficient and when you add on abilities...geez. REALLY good for the points. Maybe to god, in all fairness.
its almost like DE has no unit variety and relies on spamming 1 good weapon. there is a reason star cannons went down to 2 shots, maybe dissies should get the same treatment
Or, you know, maybe Dark Eldar could get more than 2 weapon options.
Don't be ridiculous. You'll be asking for Lieutenant level characters next.
Not only that but maybe they could allow mandrakes, incubi and scourge some form of sub-faction obsessions.
Honestly while dissies are good or decent they could instead make other weapon options viable. Crazy I know but hear me out. Allow obsidian rose to effect scourge so they can get the half range melta heat lance working. Maybe make scourge cheaper because right now they all die within a turn and versus things like riptides and knights they just get laughed aside regardless of loadout. Also haywire would be nicer if we didnt only have 2 units with it and one dies instantly. I'll admit reavers being cheaper helps but it'd be nice to have bikes with -1 to be hit like gsc and Harlies as well as the 1 special weapon per 3 bikes to be 1 per 2 or something or more weapon variety. Why remake wracks with 1 new weapon and make all their weapons suck in 8th anyway?
Right now I feel like the only worthwhile weapons are shredders, dark lance/Void lance or dissies and dissies are good against most things at range and depending on the situation shredders can be points effective or not. I don't know that they can do much vs plague marines, custodes or terminator but just about all other infantry get wiped by them.
I want to know why our flyers aren't as nimble as Craftworld ones? We're meant to be the less armoured but faster flavour of Aeldari, after all.
Anyway, I am wondering about grabbing a Reaper from FW for Xmas. I am struggling to focus down vehicles with just Disintgrator spam. I already have a RWJ and a Voidraven.
Souleater wrote: I want to know why our flyers aren't as nimble as Craftworld ones? We're meant to be the less armoured but faster flavour of Aeldari, after all.
Presumably the same reason Raiders and Ravagers are markedly slower than Eldar tanks. Hell, even Venoms can only match their speed.
Souleater wrote: I want to know why our flyers aren't as nimble as Craftworld ones? We're meant to be the less armoured but faster flavour of Aeldari, after all.
Anyway, I am wondering about grabbing a Reaper from FW for Xmas. I am struggling to focus down vehicles with just Disintgrator spam. I already have a RWJ and a Voidraven.
I'm honestly thinking about taking 2 void lance void ravens with wych cults and giving them test of skill. I should've done that today but forgot. Wounding leman russ tanks on a 2 sounds really sweet.
I couldn't get chapter approved today as the local GW didn't get the shipment from FedEx. I heard plenty of GW's suffered from this and we were one of the unfortunates. 1 week of nothing isn't a big deal though and I think my list evens out anyway.
harlokin wrote: I've got myself some Incubi, and I don't think I can face trying to magnetise them. I take it that the Dual Blades are the better option?
My intention is to field them with Drazhar, and they will thus (hopefully) be benefitting from his Master of Blades.
Wouldn't you only be magnetizing the one dude with klaive and demiklaive?
harlokin wrote: I've got myself some Incubi, and I don't think I can face trying to magnetise them. I take it that the Dual Blades are the better option?
My intention is to field them with Drazhar, and they will thus (hopefully) be benefitting from his Master of Blades.
Wouldn't you only be magnetizing the one dude with klaive and demiklaive?
harlokin wrote: I've got myself some Incubi, and I don't think I can face trying to magnetise them. I take it that the Dual Blades are the better option?
harlokin wrote: I've got myself some Incubi, and I don't think I can face trying to magnetise them. I take it that the Dual Blades are the better option?
Nope. Dual blades are awful.
They are anti horde and better vs T8 with invuls (b.c you get +2 attacks and AP doesnt matter). So there are situations that it is better, note that on average vs T8, 5++ they are doing 8 wounds, and that Onslaught which you get 4 more hits (making it 9.5 wounds) honestly that not that for dual blades with draz near.
I was able to use them the one tournament i had them in to finish off a Knight and a Stompa (tho DT Talos was much better lol but thats 300pts vs 200pts and now Draz+Inc are 180pts)
Bear in mind that (unless I'm mistaken) the blades aren't free.
So you're just going to be paying for an extra profile that's worse than the normal one about 90% of the time.
Yes, there are situations where the dual-blade mode is better. However, by this logic one should buy every possible upgrade on every model just in case it happens to be useful. Maybe this game will be the one where that Agoniser on your Sybarite turns the tables!
Amishprn86 wrote: You get both, its 1 weapon with 2 profiles, you dont pay for them and every time you choose to fight you get to pick the version you want.
Oh fair enough. I hadn't realised Demiklaives were free now.
Guess there's no reason not to always take them then.
Amishprn86 wrote: You get both, its 1 weapon with 2 profiles, you dont pay for them and every time you choose to fight you get to pick the version you want.
Oh fair enough. I hadn't realised Demiklaives were free now.
Guess there's no reason not to always take them then.
yep, they free. Klaivex can only take a regular klaive now in case you own the old finecast sculpts where he's modeled with one.
For any newer players it can be model either way and its still wysiwyg, you don't need to "pick" the weapon based on if its together or not on the model, it is 100% ok to build you model either way and use both profiles.
So I'm going to play a 2k pts game on Saturday against gsc. I've never fought gsc before but I heard they are bigger glass cannons than us and they are mostly good in melee. Since I'm good at range I'll try to stay at range and shoot him if possible. Any tips on what I might end up facing?
They are good at placing damage where they need to, not so much good at damage in genera, but can have 2 or 3 damage types and put them when and where it is needed, they'll have a couple solid melee and a couple solid shooting units.
The key is to know how their Ambushing works, look at 1d4chan for hose rules and then counter deploy around that. We have a stratagem to redeploy 3 units (tho you might not want to play poison tongue). If you can counter deploy them you should be fine. Use a few Kabal units as screens, even Court (they are 15pts) as a couple screen units too for their Ambushing.
Once they are on the table and do their damage, they are very glass, its mostly just Guardsmen stats with a couple T4, and maybe some minor invuls.
Watch out for the Bikes, Aberrants, some powers, units with Demo charges, and a couple of their assassin like characters.
Not sure if someone brought this up before but is anybody aware of the crazy damage grotesques can do with liquifiers and dark technomancers. You get like 35 shots auto hitting shots per 10, which also scares some melee units away. Then even with low strength you enhance and always wound no worse than 5 so about 12 wounds. If it's a knight it's anywhere from 6-8 wounds with each wound doing 2 damage each and this is before the melee phase.
If you take other experimental creations it makes these guys even stronger or master torturers which would make the re-roll wounds on grots that much sicker since they cost less.
flamingkillamajig wrote: So I'm going to play a 2k pts game on Saturday against gsc. I've never fought gsc before but I heard they are bigger glass cannons than us and they are mostly good in melee. Since I'm good at range I'll try to stay at range and shoot him if possible. Any tips on what I might end up facing?
Basically GSC want your army to have one big target for them to crack, and a bunch of exposed infantry for their little mooks to pop up and clear. Most GSC strategies follow a pattern of "Chaff on the table, stuff that does stuff in deep strike" because unfortunately unlike drukhari their open-topped transports are not functional and fairly priced, so the alternative gameplay strategy that would be like shooty neophytes in trucks is pretty garbage.
The way to beat them would be to have as many of your squads in transports as possible, and spread the value in your force as evenly as possible. Which, luckily, drukhari are very good at. A basic squad of splinters in a venom is a huge pain for a GSC army to deal with.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Not sure if someone brought this up before but is anybody aware of the crazy damage grotesques can do with liquifiers and dark technomancers. You get like 35 shots auto hitting shots per 10, which also scares some melee units away. Then even with low strength you enhance and always wound no worse than 5 so about 12 wounds. If it's a knight it's anywhere from 6-8 wounds with each wound doing 2 damage each and this is before the melee phase.
If you take other experimental creations it makes these guys even stronger or master torturers which would make the re-roll wounds on grots that much sicker since they cost less.
It it makes them 46ppm, imo thats way to much for them with only a 5++
flamingkillamajig wrote: So I'm going to play a 2k pts game on Saturday against gsc. I've never fought gsc before but I heard they are bigger glass cannons than us and they are mostly good in melee. Since I'm good at range I'll try to stay at range and shoot him if possible. Any tips on what I might end up facing?
Basically GSC want your army to have one big target for them to crack, and a bunch of exposed infantry for their little mooks to pop up and clear. Most GSC strategies follow a pattern of "Chaff on the table, stuff that does stuff in deep strike" because unfortunately unlike drukhari their open-topped transports are not functional and fairly priced, so the alternative gameplay strategy that would be like shooty neophytes in trucks is pretty garbage.
The way to beat them would be to have as many of your squads in transports as possible, and spread the value in your force as evenly as possible. Which, luckily, drukhari are very good at. A basic squad of splinters in a venom is a huge pain for a GSC army to deal with.
Sounds legit Scottie. Sadly I don't think I have enough vehicles or transports to really take advantage of this. The plan I had was going to be: put lots of worthless crap up front to make DS not kill anything worthwhile when it comes in (worthwhile stuff goes closer to the back) and then stay at a distance and shoot him to death. I figure poison or even shredders work better vs aberrants due to the -1 to damage they have. I may just shoot at them with poison honestly just because shredders are a bit iffy. The reaver screens or using other units as screens does work when protecting shredder units though.
@amishprn86: You're probably right and I do make bad judgment calls but if nothing else I could play my normal groteques as the liquefier variant to test if that strategy works. I'm thinking 2 units of 5 grotesques w/ liquefiers in a raider each. The other issue with giving them technomancers is whenever they do shoot it will start to kill grotesques. Meaty as they are that probably isn't ideal to be dying to their guns before they even hit a melee and even worse if the vehicle dies and they crawl out and roll 1's. Thankfully it isn't quite all eggs in one basket but it's still not ideal. This strategy probably won't work but I like trying new things.
Btw when a unit of grotesques fire and some misfire and hurt themselves and have multiple wounds in a squad of said units how does wound allocation work. Do I wound each grotesque separately as it seems to be written or do I allocate all to one model until they die off and move to the next as per usual?
All wounds have to stack on 1 models at a time, its the main rule for wounds on a unit, even if you have a rule that sayd "This model takes a wound" if its in a unit then you place it on an already wounded model.
Game was switched to 1500 pts. It was objectives and I lost. Interestingly enough both of us were getting slaughtered but he drew some better cards. I may need more command points in the future if I get bad card draws.
Oh and you guys won't believe what happened. Both my archons failed their 2+ inv save the first wound they had to save and got destroyed hard from it. I had to charge the enemy with the first one which was my warlord and he did well and would've probably lived. It sucked because I rolled up an objective he could've grabbed but the gsc were grabbing it with a troop unit with rock saws and he kept conga lining so he could consolidate into units he didn't charge and surrounding them so I couldn't leave combat since they were foot troops. It just forced me to drop a void mine on his guys and charge them with my warlord (away from his rock saws of course). It was just so frustrating my leader died that way. 4 points i couldve earned gone. Not to mention one objective card gave him d3 victory points and he rolled a 6 while i rolled like a 1 for my d3 victory points. I was screwed by a few bad rolls. That possibly isnt entirely true but i dont think i couldve guaranteed my warlords safety either.
Anyway I killed his patriarch, magos and the vox caster looking dude. Shockingly the venoms with shredders lived all game. We both lost almost all our guys.
So what to learn in the future? I guess I should learn to space my guys apart more. He was doing some sketchy moves. I'm normally not used to deep strike units though or at least not fast charging ones. To an extent I've faced them with khorne armies but it's still rare for me.
vipoid wrote: Shadowfield is the worst mechanic in our entire codex.
Shadow field is the best bit of war gear in the entire codex.
Its fluffy its stupidly powerful until you lose it and then your Archon is stuck in the open with his pants down. Best of all it can never be re rolled so it can't be abused. If you don't want to risk it you can always take the armor save instead. I run obsidian rose and take the armor of misery. 3+2++ is a tough guy. At least for us.
vipoid wrote: Shadowfield is the worst mechanic in our entire codex.
Shadow field is the best bit of war gear in the entire codex.
Its fluffy its stupidly powerful until you lose it and then your Archon is stuck in the open with his pants down. Best of all it can never be re rolled so it can't be abused. If you don't want to risk it you can always take the armor save instead. I run obsidian rose and take the armor of misery. 3+2++ is a tough guy. At least for us.
vipoid wrote: Shadowfield is the worst mechanic in our entire codex.
The sad bit is at the end of 7th it was actually the best because it lasted the rest of the phase it was failed in and only strength 6 would instant death a guy. This meant in one game vs tau I just took 4 in a unit and absorbed shooting from a whole gun-line and a fail just meant it would end at the end of the shooting phase (which is all tau had anyway). Once that was done you just took another archon and formed it up to take the enemy fire. It was the most obnoxious anti-gunline thing (esp. the stationary gunlines) I ever did in any game and was a huge boon in 7th. Of course 7th sucked for us overall but I miss trueborn and bikes being useful to that degree and scourge just being useful at all. Chances are by the time I figure out 8th we'll get a new codex or rulebook and everything will change all over again. How typical of this game.
RedGriefer wrote: Has anyone tried using Scourges? How do they fair currently?
I've used most types and the issue is that they're fairly expensive and still squishy. Don't expect them to last more than a turn. The main issue is that it's an anti-tank unit in a game where anti-tank/anti-monster needs to be spammed more to deal with vehicles (provided you don't just ignore vehicles and monsters completely). They're also not helped by the limit of 3 unit cards in a 2k points list. Not only all of these but they are mercenaries so don't benefit from any of the sub-faction traits which makes them much worse than they could be.
As far as builds go don't use heat lances on them as they'll never make it close enough and are just out of range if they DS. If they had obsidian rose traits or something it could've helped but heat lances are just not so hot in my opinion. Dark lances would be ok but all infantry mounted dark lances are heavy so if you move you have negative modifiers to hit and quite a few things have negative modifiers in general so you'd be hitting on 5's at that point. Not to mention if you take them you probably want spare bodies and at that point all units end up costing a lot for something very fragile and easy to kill. I've heard haywire can be good but if you want good haywire units you'd probably just go harlequinns and get skyweavers with em instead. Alternatively I hear talos are good with haywire (pre-phoenix rising anyway) although talos have the worst BS of any dark eldar unit. Odd how such an effective unit in combat has alright shooting and is cheap for what it does but cronos are garbage right now. Blasters for scourge work on small scourge squads deep striking. That said an obnoxious and clever enemy will probably have walls of infantry preventing DS zones if they have enough models for it. They could potentially prevent you from shooting at a vehicles you want. Shardcarbine scourge sound fun in theory but the issue with them is that lack of AP means they're terrible against 2+ or 3+ saves. Don't let poisoned weapons fool you. Poisoned damage is still the same as before but wounds on all models went up a lot so don't ever think you can take out a riptide. It's actually better as anti-infantry for lightly armored enemies. Shredders are fairly similar in this regard with scourge. Scourge never live long so maybe shredders are ok with them since they're always going to need to kill infantry and they'll probably die anyway but it's still kind of a waste since they can't clear infantry for more than a turn. The issue being they can't get benefits from flayed skull which again would've helped them a ton. The -1 to armor is good but often an enemy infantry unit is in cover and this is even more annoying with marines and custodes. That said I probably should get rid of my trueborn with shredders as well due to cost per unit in fragile venoms.
So in short if you use them don't give them heat lances but follow my general input. The general issue with scourge is too high of a cost for an army that prefers MSU and cheap units to do MSU with. The thing I notice with dark eldar in general is we don't want to commit something up front and center unless it's cheap and disposable or super tough and fairly well costed (covens units). This is one reason why nobody uses hellions even with point decreases.
My scourges do well. As I am a pressure army, an actual Coven force, target priority does protect the Scourges. I think that and terrain are what get missed when talking Scourges. They've got deeeeecent armor as well. So the question of survivability isnt just a function of stats, but of priority and terrain.
I use a 10 man for carbines, a couple small units for Heat Lances and Blasters. Haywire would be better but my wife misunderstood my instructions when assembling them, so...
That being said, Heat lances work GREAT on multiwound bad guys. Its not ideal against tanks tho, so don't do that unless forced.
I love having that extreme speed in my force. Its just great to have. Plus if you have a Brigade of Coven, you pretty much literally have to take Scourges. So Ive been learning how to utilize them well. That speed is saweet.
Hey guys, I was hoping I could get some constructive advice on how to integrate some dark eldar into my eldar army (and how the mechanics would work). I am not a tourney player, I do enjoy playing and trying to win, but I just dont keep up with the arms race anymore. Anyhow, my eldar force focuses around a 20 man blob of guardians, I also have another 10 man squad and Ill add in squad of rangers to get my 3 troops choices. I usually run some shining spears, wave serpents and I have a unit of shooty wraithguard (also have a wraithknight, wraithlords).
Anyways, I couldnt pass up a good deal, I bought 3 venoms, the codex and a Getting Started box set for $100. My thought was to run 3 5 man squads of warriors in venoms for another battlion. It would give my more static eldar some movement and cheap objective grabbing. So my questions, do I want to use the raider? As the warrior squads are 5 man and the venoms only hold 5, what about the HQs? I would bet I just take 2 archons correct? What equipment? And I want to take the bloody rose right to give my venoms a 6+ FNP? Any advice would be appreciated. I would guess Ill get rid of the 3 bikes and possibly the raider as I want to keep my Dark Eldar force fairly cheap pointwise so I dont lose out on too many eldar models.
DEIMO is great as a cheap chaff killing CP Battalion that can move fast and take objections.
2 Archons, 3 Kabals, 3 venoms is 399pts, if you add a couple guns it'll be more but you don't need them, If you do i would take Shredders on the Kabals.
And its Black Heart you want, Bloody Rose is SoB. Black heart is very strong. 6+++ on vehicles, a 4CP stratagem to stop another stratagem. If you want to use their relic, its rr1's to wound, so 1 Archon will be rr1's to hits/wounds. This is very important if you want Ravagers later on.
You Archons should be cheap, dont need to go crazy, they can be very hit or miss, sometimes tanking 20 wounds, sometimes they die on the first wound. but you can use them for rr1's, sit on objectives (they are cheap enough to do that and cant be shot at, but if they are Snipe a 2++/6+++ makes its a reluctant shot against them), or as a charger to soak up OW/tank a unit for a turn (Re-roll charges always if in Black Heart).
Anyways, I couldnt pass up a good deal, I bought 3 venoms, the codex and a Getting Started box set for $100. My thought was to run 3 5 man squads of warriors in venoms for another battlion. It would give my more static eldar some movement and cheap objective grabbing. So my questions, do I want to use the raider? As the warrior squads are 5 man and the venoms only hold 5, what about the HQs? I would bet I just take 2 archons correct? What equipment? And I want to take the bloody rose right to give my venoms a 6+ FNP? Any advice would be appreciated. I would guess Ill get rid of the 3 bikes and possibly the raider as I want to keep my Dark Eldar force fairly cheap pointwise so I dont lose out on too many eldar models.
A cheap Kabal battalion is an option. Two Archons is usually the way to go, but they are not really helpful.
An Archon is great if held close to three Ravagers improving their shooting.
Don't forget that going first is often the better option.
The cheap battalion gives you at least 3 more drops.
So would I be better doing 1 raider and 2 venoms? If I do 3 venoms and 3 squads of warriors, that means the archons are walking right as the capacity is 5. If I did a raider and 2 venoms I could put 1 squad of warriors and 2 archons in the raider and the 2 squads of warriors in the other 2 venoms. From my understanding raiders dont cost much more than venoms correct and I could trade the 3rd venom for say another archon and 5 warriors that I lack. How would you equip the archons?
If you are going for low drops then yes. If doing ITC and you dont care about drops but stopping secondaries, maybe not.
I personally like raiders a lot, and i normally play with a few and venoms too (1-2 ratio for me, so if i have 3 raiders its 6 venoms, but thats b.c i like that play style).
He used to be able to get a PGL+Blaster, so that was always the go to, but now they took that away from him..... such an iconic model loadout too.. ut b.c they took that away he is 100% melee now, or a RR1's auramancer. I play mine as a rr1's auramancer and sit him on objectives lol.
But i know many people that gives him a huskblade and blast pistol and goes fighting low attack characters, or vehicles to help tie them up and do damage.
So if I combine this detachment with an eldar host, he will not give the reroll ones to my eldar units (say guardians), only the dark eldar units correct? Are the dark eldar warriors anything more than warm bodies to try and take objectives? Their guns dont do much of anything do they?
sturguard wrote: So if I combine this detachment with an eldar host, he will not give the reroll ones to my eldar units (say guardians), only the dark eldar units correct? Are the dark eldar warriors anything more than warm bodies to try and take objectives? Their guns dont do much of anything do they?
All abilities are Keyword based. Kabal warriors are mostly cheap bodies, but together shooting with a Venom they can clear some light trash or hurt a monster, they have poison 4+ vs everything but vehicles.
sturguard wrote: So if I combine this detachment with an eldar host, he will not give the reroll ones to my eldar units (say guardians), only the dark eldar units correct? Are the dark eldar warriors anything more than warm bodies to try and take objectives? Their guns dont do much of anything do they?
I don't do eldar soup so I couldn't tell you for absolute certain but I think the re-rolls is kabal only so cult, coven and mercenary units don't get boosted. So basically only the archons, archon retinue (not sure if anybody takes them), warriors, trueborn (if you have the index), raiders in a kabal detachment only, ravagers and our planes in kabal detachments will have the re-roll 1's to hit. That said I don't think flyers really ever get it due to being so fast.
Archons want to be outside of transports so they don't get their transport shot to death and die in the resultant explosion. Also worth mentioning archons don't give boosts to anybody while their riding in transports which I think is kind of stupid esp. since it's open topped and even if they didn't the guys inside (including the archon themselves) don't want to be inspired by the archon's buffs.
I find warriors to be cheap in points but that's just me. The reason why is it's a BS 3+ guardsman that can have a special weapon every 5 guys. You also have to remember everything in our army aside from covens is squishy and will die esp. at close range. Talos and Grotesques can tank pretty well but that's it really. Can't say i'm the best guy for tactics so if Amish or a couple others disagree then listen to them.
As far as Ravagers go I always thought the go to was flayed skull so they avoid cover bonuses. I can't tell you how useful the 'avoid enemy's cover bonus' is but this is only on flyers or units transported in flyers. That said all the rapid fire weapons (mostly poison) get re-roll 1's to hit while in flying units. Of course that means your army will be heavily skimmer vehicles or flyers but that's ok because that's one of the main ways to play kabal if not THE way.
I'm surprised Amish warmed up to shredders though. I always thought he (she?) was still questioning the validity of shredders due to the short range. I'll admit i'm more skeptical too now but I think if you run reavers as a defensive line for shredder units in transports and don't put all your eggs in one basket with trueborn in venoms (something I sadly can't fix until I get more stuff) then you should be able to use shredder units for more than a turn or two.
He used to be able to get a PGL+Blaster, so that was always the go to, but now they took that away from him..... such an iconic model loadout too.. ut b.c they took that away he is 100% melee now, or a RR1's auramancer. I play mine as a rr1's auramancer and sit him on objectives lol.
But i know many people that gives him a huskblade and blast pistol and goes fighting low attack characters, or vehicles to help tie them up and do damage.
WHAT?! WHEN?! I can't take blasters on my archons anymore? Did they get rid of index options and units? Are trueborn gone too then? To be fair I needed to stop using trueborn due to fragility but I don't think I have enough transports or bodies to run the warrior variants. I was only able to get trueborn with proper weapons due to scrapping some of my scourge units for special weapons.
sturguard wrote: I got the new codex and there are no true borns in there, I actually had to search a few times as I was thinking of taking a squad of them.
They are index only (xenos 1). I'm just not sure if they sell that any more. That said dark eldar do better as MSU so keep your units fairly cheap per squad and maybe the enemy will waste shots as well as morale not taking a big effect.
sturguard wrote: So if I combine this detachment with an eldar host, he will not give the reroll ones to my eldar units (say guardians), only the dark eldar units correct? Are the dark eldar warriors anything more than warm bodies to try and take objectives? Their guns dont do much of anything do they?
I don't do eldar soup so I couldn't tell you for absolute certain but I think the re-rolls is kabal only so cult, coven and mercenary units don't get boosted. So basically only the archons, archon retinue (not sure if anybody takes them), warriors, trueborn (if you have the index), raiders in a kabal detachment only, ravagers and our planes in kabal detachments will have the re-roll 1's to hit. That said I don't think flyers really ever get it due to being so fast.
Archons want to be outside of transports so they don't get their transport shot to death and die in the resultant explosion. Also worth mentioning archons don't give boosts to anybody while their riding in transports which I think is kind of stupid esp. since it's open topped and even if they didn't the guys inside (including the archon themselves) don't want to be inspired by the archon's buffs.
I find warriors to be cheap in points but that's just me. The reason why is it's a BS 3+ guardsman that can have a special weapon every 5 guys. You also have to remember everything in our army aside from covens is squishy and will die esp. at close range. Talos and Grotesques can tank pretty well but that's it really. Can't say i'm the best guy for tactics so if Amish or a couple others disagree then listen to them.
As far as Ravagers go I always thought the go to was flayed skull so they avoid cover bonuses. I can't tell you how useful the 'avoid enemy's cover bonus' is but this is only on flyers or units transported in flyers. That said all the rapid fire weapons (mostly poison) get re-roll 1's to hit while in flying units. Of course that means your army will be heavily skimmer vehicles or flyers but that's ok because that's one of the main ways to play kabal if not THE way.
I'm surprised Amish warmed up to shredders though. I always thought he (she?) was still questioning the validity of shredders due to the short range. I'll admit i'm more skeptical too now but I think if you run reavers as a defensive line for shredder units in transports and don't put all your eggs in one basket with trueborn in venoms (something I sadly can't fix until I get more stuff) then you should be able to use shredder units for more than a turn or two.
He used to be able to get a PGL+Blaster, so that was always the go to, but now they took that away from him..... such an iconic model loadout too.. ut b.c they took that away he is 100% melee now, or a RR1's auramancer. I play mine as a rr1's auramancer and sit him on objectives lol.
But i know many people that gives him a huskblade and blast pistol and goes fighting low attack characters, or vehicles to help tie them up and do damage.
WHAT?! WHEN?! I can't take blasters on my archons anymore? Did they get rid of index options and units? Are trueborn gone too then? To be fair I needed to stop using trueborn due to fragility but I don't think I have enough transports or bodies to run the warrior variants. I was only able to get trueborn with proper weapons due to scrapping some of my scourge units for special weapons.
You can still technically take Blaster/PGL but not for events or locations that don't play legends, here is the link for more information https://www.warhammer-community.com/legends/
flamingkillamajig wrote:
sturguard wrote: I got the new codex and there are no true borns in there, I actually had to search a few times as I was thinking of taking a squad of them.
They are index only (xenos 1). I'm just not sure if they sell that any more. That said dark eldar do better as MSU so keep your units fairly cheap per squad and maybe the enemy will waste shots as well as morale not taking a big effect.
They also don't sell Index's anymore and haven;t for about a year now, the flow chart is also technically removed from the website faq page, tho its in the archive pages still.
Oh shoot then I guess I haven't technically played with a legal army for a while now. Guess I should keep up with the updates. To be fair trueborn were a little too expensive as is anyway. Would've been nice to keep them with a serious points reduction though.
As far as chaff clearing yeah I'd say warriors in venoms. Shredders can be fun against all infantry short of custodes and maybe death guard but unless you have a screen the terribly short range means they can be attacked and destroyed easily.
Poison is a strange beast these days. In 8th you need flayed skull if you take it in venoms otherwise any marine unit in cover gets a 2+ save and anything with 2+ in general makes poison struggle. In reality it is more a light infantry, monstrous infantry (ogryns, grotesques, hive guard and abberrants) and small monster killer (carnifex and anything with less than 10 wounds). Don't ever use poison vs riptides. Every multiple wound model got more wounds for the most part and poison has stayed at 1 damage per shot for dark eldar as well as having no ap value except in very specific situations and generally not enough to matter much.
I also kind of wish they made splinter cannons heavy but assault on vehicles so I could shoot 12 shots at 36" range like before on them but what are you gonna do.
Amishprn86 wrote: No, if they where heavy that would suck for all infantry, which should be a valid option if GW could balance better.
Do you take them on infantry? I just hate having to get close for rapid fire to go off. Also at that point you may as well take shredders since the long distance pumps out far too shots to be viable. Of course you either take shredders on a ds unit or you put them in a transport.
Oh so it isn't a valid option like I thought. Personally a 36" range, 6 shot weapon just feels better than a rapid fire 3 weapon whether it's assault or heavy. I don't think splinter cannons were ever good outside of on venoms.
@jivardi: You have to take wych cult of strife if you take her which is +1 attack on the charge I think. If i recall early on red grief was the go to cult but wych cults got way better in phoenix rising. I never really used wych cults until the Phoenix rising book. I imagine Amish is the way better guide here for them if you want to take lelith.
Lifeistorment wrote: Hey guys, I’m an ITC beginner with a tournament coming up. Is there any decent resource for which secondaries to pick in different situations?
This is incredibly list and stratagy-dependent. MOST army builds will generally be built TO at least two of the secondaries. For example, two tougher minimum sized squads for Engineers will be included or Recon if your strategy is very threat forward. Old School is good if you have excellent first turn strike ability (unlike GK who do absolutely nothing in T1).
Typically Recon is a no brainer default for most Dark Eldar forces. We live on speed. We also probably do well with Marked For Death(naming four targets of PL 7 or higher which we must kill at some point during the game). We have the firepower and usually those are priority targets anyways.
The third one will likely be dependent on the enemy army and there's no telling on that one. WHEN IN DOUBT choose Old School. It's your fall back choice if no other choice seems obvious.
Lifeistorment wrote: Hey guys, I’m an ITC beginner with a tournament coming up. Is there any decent resource for which secondaries to pick in different situations?
This is incredibly list and stratagy-dependent. MOST army builds will generally be built TO at least two of the secondaries. For example, two tougher minimum sized squads for Engineers will be included or Recon if your strategy is very threat forward. Old School is good if you have excellent first turn strike ability (unlike GK who do absolutely nothing in T1).
Typically Recon is a no brainer default for most Dark Eldar forces. We live on speed. We also probably do well with Marked For Death(naming four targets of PL 7 or higher which we must kill at some point during the game). We have the firepower and usually those are priority targets anyways.
The third one will likely be dependent on the enemy army and there's no telling on that one. WHEN IN DOUBT choose Old School. It's your fall back choice if no other choice seems obvious.
That’s exactly what I needed thanks. It’s all kabal in venoms, trip ravagers and 4 flyers.
wuestenfux wrote: Any experience playing vs. Imperial Fists or Crimson Fists?
Their special rules can be a pain for enemy tanks.
I know I'd like to not experience playing against them again...
Pretty sure Covens are the way to fight them, Kabals and Cults rely too heavily on vehicles which their combat doctrines completely dismantle. Meanwhile they don't get any bonus against Talos, because they lack the vehicle keyword.
IF and CF are hard to fight these days.
Lots of poisoned shots and disintegrators are the way to go.
I find it rather annoying that Aggressors got another wound (3W in toto).
They are key to remove if the enemy fields them.
So lately I was somewhat convinced by a friend that maybe blaster warriors aren't the best way to go. I often learn lessons and then forget them. Usually it feels like the blaster weapon is not good just due to range because if you're that close a whole gun-line will probably light you up soon. Also even 120 warriors would probably take enough damage against higher tier armies like tau before managing to do much. Ugh I just don't know.
Another friend also pointed out why I'm unsure about taking shredders on foot against power armor because mere cover negates the ap they have. For this reason flayed skull is still attractive for facing power armor armies and just the negates cover boost when flying is good enough.
I was also thinking of maybe using 3 5 man units of haywire scourge for the off chance I face vehicles with inv saves but I don't imagine they'll live long and coven do it better. The scourge use will be a temporary answer. I'm just bummed that vs tau it'll be mostly worthless against all those riptides and non vehicle units.
I honestly think they'd be ok on foot but not with blasters due to short range putting them in the enemy's teeth and definitely not against an army like tau. That said I've never had trouble killing loads of guardsmen when I get close with shredders. Not to mention the firepower of armies is constantly getting ramped up.
I might just take warriors in raiders so I can have 2 blasters and just spam raiders. There's no -1 To hit but I can spam blasters easier that way. Venoms can spit out more poisoned shots however and might be better for anti infantry. I feel like against armies with bs 3+ or better raiders are the superior choice anyway. Of course I do face tau and spammed venoms could annoy them more.
flamingkillamajig wrote: I honestly think they'd be ok on foot but not with blasters due to short range putting them in the enemy's teeth and definitely not against an army like tau. That said I've never had trouble killing loads of guardsmen when I get close with shredders. Not to mention the firepower of armies is constantly getting ramped up.
I might just take warriors in raiders so I can have 2 blasters and just spam raiders. There's no -1 To hit but I can spam blasters easier that way. Venoms can spit out more poisoned shots however and might be better for anti infantry. I feel like against armies with bs 3+ or better raiders are the superior choice anyway. Of course I do face tau and spammed venoms could annoy them more.
Well I'll probably get more models tomorrow.
Raiders honestly are just as tough b.c its 4 more wounds, the problem is vs stuff like Plasma there is no reason not to overcharge it where against venom's they wont.
I'm playing around with the idea of 12 raiders (I have 9 currently so i need 3 more before i can actually test it to make sure it works) i think Coven raiders are very strong, +1 to wound and Damage is extremely strong on DC's, 4+ to wound instead of 5+ or 2+ vs marines, and that +1 damage will kill off those 3 wound marines, and kill off vehicles easier aswell.
I'm also thinking about a null deployment other than vehicles, 12 Raiders with nothing in them, the 3 units of wracks hide (engineer most likely), 3 Mandrakes and 3 Scourges (Yes they are weak and easy to be killed but the idea is if i don't need them right away i wait till turn to drop).
Basically the idea is to just make sure no more than 2 dies a turn, turn 1 if even ever going first i'll have 36 s5, +1w, -3, 3D shots, tried it against a SM friend once (he had 1 Repulsor and 2 Dreads, IH list, not 100% optimized but the generic list type of IH list) and it was terrible for him, then turn 2 when the Scourges/Mandrakes came down i killed off basically the rest of his army.
So now i need to get more Raiders and play more games, but as i only play 2-3 games a month for 40k anymore (more into AoSatm) its hard to justify it b.c IDK what is going to happen to Quins in PA or if 8th will change again, heck if 9th comes out.
Edit: Forgot to say, thats an 1850 list, IDK what i want to do for 2k, i was thinking adding in another HQ like Drazhar so i can have 10CP instead of 9 CP (right now its a Battalion and a Vanguard, but i could also add in an outrider), i also could drop the 1 unit of 10 Wracks to a 5mana nd take Drazhar+Raider lol, so that'll be 13 raiders.
flamingkillamajig wrote: So remember how I said a page or 2 back that our competitive list was basically spam dissies? Yeah well you seem to be proving that true.
But thats not fully true tho, venom spam still works, and so does Coven, i'm seeing 9 Talos lists work out amazingly.
Oh I know but your entire list right now is basically spam dissies with zero variation. In fact that is being very kind to it since it is the exact same unit. I mean i figured rule of 3 per 2k pts was an attempt to prevent this very thing. I realize we're supposed to keep our firepower spread out and do msu as dark eldar but i mean come on man. This will sadly probably be corrected in a faq or something while gw doesnt touch their precious marines at all though.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Oh I know but your entire list right now is basically spam dissies with zero variation. In fact that is being very kind to it since it is the exact same unit. I mean i figured rule of 3 per 2k pts was an attempt to prevent this very thing. I realize we're supposed to keep our firepower spread out and do msu as dark eldar but i mean come on man. This will sadly probably be corrected in a faq or something while gw doesnt touch their precious marines at all though.
Well thats also b.c of the Marine meta and how ITC works, and Ravagers/RWJF's went up in points, also they are transports, every army can spam transports and always could, DE has been using Transport spam for many editions and IMO is built with that in mind as a play style, just like IG can take 13 LR's
Triple void raven bombers with Test of Skill surely has some legs. You either have strength 9 void lances wounding most things on 2's, or the dark scythe wounding nearly everything on 2's and 3's, or 4's at worst.
Elfric wrote: Triple void raven bombers with Test of Skill surely has some legs. You either have strength 9 void lances wounding most things on 2's, or the dark scythe wounding nearly everything on 2's and 3's, or 4's at worst.
I'm a bit mixed with dark scythe too. It's very, very random and I have tried it. Sometime flat damage is just way better esp. With a weapon strong enough for anti tank and monster but but probably doesn't have good volume for. Also without range boost dark scythe range is pitiful and keeps you to close to what might hurt. Void lance I'm was already trying out you suspected tactic with them. The issue is rule of 3 mostly. It's a good plane with a good weapon, good boost vs monsters and vehicles as long as they have 10 wounds each. It's even made me reconsider taking heat lances again on reaver jet bikes but it only probably wound them on 4. Meanwhile void lance is jus great but sadly you only get 3. Void mine can be nice depending what the drop is but against muliwoumd models its not as sexy as it could be and more simply 1 wound genestealer with inv saves are going down in a flyby unless you have to saves helping you.
For now I think I just use bikes for several reasons. One of which being the assosciated mortal wounds each will do is more controlled. If i launce a void mine at 3 multi wound custodes and 2 get hurt and the fail fnp its only a custode with 2 wounds. If I have enough grav talons mixed with "slashing impact" each squad does an average of 6 mortal wounds which auto get placed all on one custodes and then the next meaning 2 dead custodes per bike squad before i even get into melee which might get thinned out before all of this with shooting. Sadly wych cult mortal wounds obsession trait does not affect vehicles but it's not too bad since a healthy does of haywire will wipe up tougher tanks. My bikes will probably run and shoot at the opponent and only come in for mortal wounds after. i think on paper void raven sounds better with toughness being higher and having minus 1 to be hit but anti tank cant as easily take out bikes esp. A lot of em.dissies would be an oddly good counter to them but I tend not to face dark eldar players besides me. Also reavers can grab objectives and bog down some crappy units in melee that tend to shoot real hard otherwise.
Could be silly to see with two units of 12 reavers for 24 total. All with blasters and grab talons.
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So I wanted to put up another post but double posting and all. Anyway I've been wanting to try out forge world dark eldar. I know we only have 2 different units but a few reapers sounds interesting. Sounds like it could be good anti tank right now and the cost doesn't sound too terrible in U.S. dollars. My only issue is handling stuff like riptides. Perhaps enough units with slashing impact can cut those down to size though.
Anyway I think Amish is the best to ask about all this but I appreciate any experience with forge world. Right now the tantalus seems like the closest thing we have to a super heavy or centerpiece model. Shame gw won't just give us a super heavy already.
Rafss wrote: hi, does Archon give re roll for kabalites and raider if kabalites and archon both in raider?
sadly, no. Models embarked on transports aren't counted as being on the battlefield, therefore, the aura of the archon can't affect them even if hes in the same boat since the distance between them is null.
same thing if the archon is standaing beside the boat. The boat might be within 6" but the models in it are withing null" so the aura doesnt apply
So where is everybody at now with their dark eldar armies?
My current list is two 12 model units of reaver jet Bikes (24 total) with toughness boost, 4 venoms with basic warriors in em, 3 dissie ravagers and three 5 man scourge squads with haywire. Currently my last 2 opponents gave up after my turn 2 due to basically not seeing a winnable outcome on their end. That said first list was a fluffy khorne list and a craftworld eldar list with the -1 to hit ability army wide. So yeah it definitely wasn't the super tough armies I face and probably not the most optimal list. I'm interested to see how I'll do vs tau, knights and marines.
So where is everybody at now with their dark eldar armies?
My current list is two 12 model units of reaver jet Bikes (24 total) with toughness boost, 4 venoms with basic warriors in em, 3 dissie ravagers and three 5 man scourge squads with haywire. Currently my last 2 opponents gave up after my turn 2 due to basically not seeing a winnable outcome on their end. That said first list was a fluffy khorne list and a craftworld eldar list with the -1 to hit ability army wide. So yeah it definitely wasn't the super tough armies I face and probably not the most optimal list. I'm interested to see how I'll do vs tau, knights and marines.
Not many people are posting becuase we don't have anything new to post about.
How many wytch cult units do you have? You can only take the same drug on multiple units if you have already take all 6 drugs.
I'm at about 3000 pts, mostly Kabalites (with some wych cults). Highlights include 3 Raiders, 3 Ravagers that can be converted into Raiders, 3 Venoms, 2 Razorwings, a Voidraven, 6 Reaver jetbikes, 10 Mandrakes, and 80 Kabalite warriors (of which less than half are ever on the battlefield at any one time). I'm not planning to expand anymore, unless new units are added or the rules change.
I don't collect Haemonculus Covens. I hear they're effective and I do like their fluff, but their aesthetic isn't for me. I prefer my space elves to be sleek and graceful, not beefy and thuggish.
I have about 2000 pts, of mostly Kabalites supported by some Coven heavy units. I don't like Ravagers or Raiders, so I have a lot of Venoms, and my anti-tank comes from a Blaster & Blast Pistol in each boat, plus anything the Taloi can chip in.
I'm currently painting Drazhar and five Incubi, and I'm pretty certain that GW will respond to my having ordered 10 finecast Mandrakes today, by announcing new plastic kits for them any day now...
I have two more quesions:
1. Do I have to always rolling D6 for Combat Drugs or I can choose ?
2. I need to roll/choose combar drugs for each unit or one roll/choose for whole army?
Rafss wrote: I have two more quesions:
1. Do I have to always rolling D6 for Combat Drugs or I can choose ?
2. I need to roll/choose combar drugs for each unit or one roll/choose for whole army?
you can either :
-Roll, which allows for duplicate drugs.
-Pick, which doesn't allow duplicates as long as a drug remains unpicked. As soon as you have all 6 drugs assigned to a unit, youre free to spam the same one over and over after. (lets say i have 2 succubi, 3 squads of wyches and 3 squads of jetbikes, i could give painbringer to all the bikes since the other units would be assigned the other drugs).
And the choice is unit per unit, i use magic cards with sharpie on them to distinguish which ones have what
harlokin wrote: Can you not also mix and match? For example, pick two diffferent Combat Drugs, and roll for a third in the hopes of getting something useful.
RAW you roll unit per unit, with the option of picking instead of rolling.
i'd say that yes you can pick the good ones on the units you want them, then roll for the rest
So another tactic comes to mind. Do you all know about the dissie raider build? Well you know how you have to have wracks as troops spammed to get that many raiders. I was thinking of not just getting dark technomancers but the obsession that allows coven models to do a mortal wound on a 5+ on the charge and possibly have quite a few wrack units inside the raiders with dissies since you're taking them anyway. Basically it's a nasty surprise for any enemies that close in to melee range of the raiders or a way to charge tau riptide units since there isn't a whole lot you can do against something that durable otherwise. The even better part of this is you don't really have to change up the dissie raider build that much to also get this nice build for a 2nd great reason for this build. Keep in mind the big difference between covens and cult is that coven's mortal wound on a 5+ charge effects all enemy units instead of just infantry, bikes and monsters.
-Guardsman- wrote: It's a really inconvenient system, though. Too much bookkeeping.
It would have been nice if one of the custom obsessions from Phoenix Rising had been the ability to just pick whatever.
No no no, DE can't have nice things, especially the wyches.. You know Reavers, Hellions, etc.. can't be playable, not in 8th! /s
We can't exactly have new units either. I think the only things we got in 7th were the void raven (technically had the flyer in 5th but no model) and a new wrack set with only one new weapon option. We haven't had a new reaver kit with more weapon options or the ability to equip each with a special weapon (entirely unlike the other 2 eldar factions) and we are way behind for a super-heavy without going forgeworld. Perhaps even a new mandrake themed unit akin to the grotesques would be nice or some bigger monstrosity for them as well. They could also make mercenaries units better or give us some combined factions stuff so I don't have to get a detachment just because I want to use grotesques and then be forced down a route where I have to choose between 3 sub-factions units just to get the units I want. We also could've done without a points increase to ravagers and razorwing jetfighters. I mean I get they were good but talos are too and they got no points increases and space marines are really good right now.
My biggest gripe is just the lack of new units though and the fact they cut off units and special characters instead of adding anything. Perhaps I shouldn't say anything lest they cut off 2 more units just to re-do scourge but let's be real they won't do that because then they might have to give scourge more and different weapon types. It'll probably be grotesques and they'll give no new weapon options and it'll be in plastic at the same points cost and cost even more money.
Sorry i'm bitter right now. Btw now that Sisters got rebooted who is the new bitter Sisters army? Death Guard? We have to be near the bottom of GW's new unit priority list.
Omg this is so bad. I didn't even realize incubi aren't sold separately. I never had an urge to get them due to rules and now the only way to get them is with the Phoenix rising set. Gw better get them sold individually and possibly give us something else.
8th might not be great but I still prefer where we are now as compared to 7th ed 40k. Fighting tau was even harder back then. Seriously even my crazy attempt could kill only one stormsurge back then and I'd still lose and that'd be my high point in 7th. Only thing I miss back then is how reavers were to an extent with cluster caltrops and being able to move so fast even if I had to give up shooting to do it.
I agree. I think the 3 subfactions idea was an interesting attempt to incorporate fluff elements, but we just don't have enough unit options to make it work.
We are certainly fun to play, and it wouldn't take too much of a tweak/addition to really improve us.
harlokin wrote: I agree. I think the 3 subfactions idea was an interesting attempt to incorporate fluff elements, but we just don't have enough unit options to make it work.
We are certainly fun to play, and it wouldn't take too much of a tweak/addition to really improve us.
But the fluff is the opposite for the most part, many of the Archon's has Wyches and Wracks under them, heck a lot of the Archons are Reaver and Hellion specialist with lots of them as their core army.
Its not fluffy, its GW being stupid. (Sorry it makes me mad b.c it goes against everything DE, where you follow the strong and try to become the strong by any means regardless of how).
What Kabal obsession do you most often choose? Last time my favorite obsession is Poison Tongue. In fun games I use 20 Kabalite Warrioirs with 4 Blaster/Shredder in deep strike.
harlokin wrote: Oddly, I'm more aggravated by the inexplicable 'close combat options' they gave Kabals in PA; it just felt so slapdash and disinterested.
Look on the bright side - at least we got some nice new relics and warlord traits.
Rafss wrote: What Kabal obsession do you most often choose? Last time my favorite obsession is Poison Tongue. In fun games I use 20 Kabalite Warrioirs with 4 Blaster/Shredder in deep strike.
I pretty much always run Flayed Skull, using a lot of Venoms, with a Blaster and a Blast Pistol in each one. I don't like mixing Kabals within an army.
Rafss wrote: What Kabal obsession do you most often choose? Last time my favorite obsession is Poison Tongue. In fun games I use 20 Kabalite Warrioirs with 4 Blaster/Shredder in deep strike.
I used to use Poison Tongue all the time but I just got tired of how crap it was.
- I love the idea of the Soul Seeker (it was the main thing that drew me to Poison Tongue) and turning an Archon into a character-sniper is great fun. However, in my experience it simply doesn't work in practise. The profile just isn't strong enough to threaten anything outside of the very weakest characters. It seems like it should be Pistol 3. Or at the very least should be able to benefit from Poison Tongue's reroll 1s ability. The fact that this doesn't apply to Poison Tongue's own unique artefact is just asinine.
- The Warlord trait is worthless.
- The stratagem is potentially good but I rarely ever found myself needing to use it. Most of my stuff is fast enough that I can just redeploy without needing to spend 2CPs.
- I like that the faction bonus works outside of transports and for melee. However, it's also very weak and Kabal have almost no melee units anyway. I often used to run an Archon with 3 Lhamaeans (since wounding on 2s, rerolling 1s, and causing Mortal Wounds on 4s was pretty nice). However, since I can only ever have 3 Lhamaeans in my entire army, I'm basically taking this trait to help all of 3 models.
Not too long ago I switched to Flayed Skull and I don't see myself ever changing back. You just get so much more from the trait alone. You start off with rerolling 1s to hit for all Rapid Fire weapons, so right off the bat you're getting almost the exact same benefit as Poison Tongue. Granted, it doesn't work for pistols or melee but both of those things are pretty niche for Kabal and even Poison Tongue doesn't buff any pistol actually worth buffing. The only meaningful drawback is that you don't get the bonuses when disembarked (or, more likely, when your transport is now a smoking crater). However, in my experience the other bonuses from Flayed Skull more than make up for this drawback. +3"M for every vehicle is very useful and gives more of an edge than one might think. However, for me, the real benefit is Ignores Cover on every weapon on a vehicle or being fired from inside a vehicle. Suddenly, MEQs in cover aren't saving against poison on a 2+. Vehicles in cover aren't getting any bonus against Disintegrators, Dark Lances or Blasters.
In terms of other stuff, the Stratagem is pretty good and the Warlord Trait is fine, though I prefer Soulthirst. I quite like the artefact for giving a Warlord Archon a more reliable defence than the godawful Shadowfield. However, I've all but stopped using Archons as my warlord as I find them boring and lacklustre. Hence, I'm more likely to just give an Archon the Djin Blade and throw them at an enemy with absolutely no regard for their survival.
The only thing I miss about Poison Tongue is the Soul Seeker. However, I just got fed up with this artefact completely failing to do anything, especially given the opportunity cost for being able to take it at all.
The problem is Flayed Skull is the only Kabal that rewards you for playing Kabals like they should be played. Their vehicles get a speed boost, they get a decent amount of rerolls from the Archon they wouldn't be getting it from, because reasons, and then there's the general benefit of ignoring cover, already a strong trait. It's several benefits in one package.
harlokin wrote: Oddly, I'm more aggravated by the inexplicable 'close combat options' they gave Kabals in PA; it just felt so slapdash and disinterested.
Look on the bright side - at least we got some nice new relics and warlord traits.
Oh.
Don't forget the new stratagems we got in PA too!
Man being in the first book hurt, GW has added soooooo much more value to each subsequent book. On the plus side my Tempestus Scions mono-force got a ton of stuff in the latest book. Doesn't help my poor Drukhari though. It's odd a sub-faction got more attention and stuff than a full codex. Oh wait, imperium keyword, that makes sense now.
Rafss wrote: What Kabal obsession do you most often choose? Last time my favorite obsession is Poison Tongue. In fun games I use 20 Kabalite Warrioirs with 4 Blaster/Shredder in deep strike.
I always play Black Heart b.c my kabals are always 3 Ravagers lol
Rafss wrote: What Kabal obsession do you most often choose?
I run Kabal of the Obsidian Rose. I was primarily attracted to them for their stratagem Failure Is Not An Option, which, granted, I don't get to use all that often. As my army shifted from an infantry horde to transport-mounted, I realized that the Flayed Skull obsession would probably be more advantageous, but I kept using the Obsidian Rose rules, because when you've always played with 24'' blasters and 18'' shredders, it's hard to go back. Also I put rose imagery on my vehicles when I painted them, and I prefer to stick to my theme.
Plus I like their fluff -- their obsession with perfection, the tale of Aestra Khromys' coup, etc.
Gonna agree with Flayed Skull. It's the best Kabal. Now that trueborn are gone there isn't really any need for anything else (since obsidian rose was best for boosting ranges of things like shredders). Foot slogging isn't really a thing with us as it's just too fragile. I mean maybe if you want long range blasters but honestly vehicle mounted heavy weapons just do everything better.
Honestly I think Obsidian rose really missed an opportunity with heat lances. Imagine if I could take scourge under the kabal keyword. There would be so much you could get out of that. I mean just taking obsessions from our phoenix rising book would've been great.
I hate how anything in the mercenaries keyword just sucks harder and harder. At this point unless all mercenaries get infinitely cheaper there is no value in even taking them. Even scourge and mandrakes are losing seriously value in an army here.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: At least Scions have the better morale based Trait. Who cares about forcing a -1LD when all casualties are just double?
I agree here that trait seems like a perfect fit for Drukhari. I know that morale tactics aren't particularly loved be everyone but I do face a lot of armies that it could be used against. Imagine if in PA one of our Kabal traits we could pick was "every kill counts as 2 for morale purposes" instead of all the gakky melee things they gave Kabal. Couple that with PGL and a detachment of coven with the stacking to -3 LD trait and we could have some awesome synergy to really hurt armies that aren't morale immune. It may not be "the most competitive thing in the world" but it'd be fun to play with I think.
So, I'm just about to finish painting the last of new Incubi, and I was wondering if anyone has had any success using them, or has any advice on how to maximise their effectiveness?
I'm aware of their limitations, and am not expecting great things, but they are lovely sculpts and it would be a shame not to use them.
Very random question - do you think it would be possible to build a Dark Eldar army akin to a Dark Elf army from WHFB (back before Age of Sigmar obliterated them)?
vipoid wrote: Very random question - do you think it would be possible to build a Dark Eldar army akin to a Dark Elf army from WHFB (back before Age of Sigmar obliterated them)?
vipoid wrote: Very random question - do you think it would be possible to build a Dark Eldar army akin to a Dark Elf army from WHFB (back before Age of Sigmar obliterated them)?
What did said Dark Elf army consist of?
Different armament - splinter pistols. But otherwise, should be doable.
vipoid wrote: Very random question - do you think it would be possible to build a Dark Eldar army akin to a Dark Elf army from WHFB (back before Age of Sigmar obliterated them)?
In Cities of Simgar you can easily. I play Cities and BoC, my Cities plays like DE actually. Its rather OP too... no one likes to play against my Cities list so i play my BoC mostly.
Here is a run down of the units, there are a couple more that i play for super combo buffs (Like a Hurricanum, its a big mage hero with a +1 to hit aura that does 3 Smites a turn and i give it a relic to give it +4" and fly, with my TE buff it moves 17" lol) I howevery play with LOTS of Scourgerunners and Shadow warriors they are basically a mix a Ravager and Venom and the Warriors are basically Mandrakes without the MW's.
Let me know if you need more help, as this is the only post i am making in this DE thread.
I'm grouping them by how buffs and Keywords work, in AoS you can have as many keywords in the same army as you want, as long as they share 1, and all these units has the Cities of Sigmar keyword (b.c they are in the CoS book) so all the other keywords are just there for buffs. Basically a Hero with <Keyword> has a buff that gives to unit with <Keyword> but can still play with any other unit, you just might not use its buff is all.
So it'l look something like this, NOTE: This is only 1600pts so you still have a lot of room.
Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
LEADERS Black Ark Fleetmaster (60) - General Assassin (80) Dreadlord on Black Dragon (300) - Lance of Spite & Shield
UNITS 3 x Scourgerunner Chariots (150) 3 x Scourgerunner Chariots (150) 10 x Shadow Warriors (110) 10 x Shadow Warriors (110) 20 x Black Ark Corsairs (160) - Vicious Blade & Wicked Cutlass 20 x Black Ark Corsairs (160) - Vicious Blade & Wicked Cutlass 10 x Darkshards (100) 10 x Darkshards (100) 10 x Executioners (130)
This list would have the Fleetmaster buffing the Corsairs, with some Chariots for heavy shooting with fast movements kinda like Ravagers or RWJF without fly, the Darkshards for shooting chaff and holding objectives. The Shadow Warriors are going to DS into cover (they love cover) and just shoot anything they can then in any fight phase the Assassin can jump out, you can do this to help them fight, or just get him into cover with a free DS. The Dragon will runn up with some Executioners as a heavy melee unit, you might want another fast moving melee unit to go with him, like Drakespawns or Melee chariots (tho they both are slightly over costed, they still work well). You have 400pts more to fill out anything you want.
About my lists, i play with 15 Scourgerunners and 40 Shadow Warriors with 4 support heroes, my Traits are basically Flayed Skull. It basically plays like i have 40 Mandrakes (but better) and 15 Venoms with 1 Dissie Cannon and 1 Splinter cannon (no joke that is what they are). My "fun" list has 2 Assassins, only 6 Chariots, 20 Warriors, the big Dragon hero and some Drakespawn Knights. The Dragon hero is really fun to play actually.
Final Edit: Sorry about the edits, the more i added the more i needed to make it more readable as i can't place my thoughts correctly sometimes, i have a writing/reading disorder (well a couple) that effects words i use, i get words mixed up, and it was really hard for me to type this out. So sorry for all the edits.
I feel kinda bad, though, as I was actually more interested in the opposite - making a Dark Eldar army that resembled a WHFB army.
However, you've actually piqued my interest with regard to Age of Sigmar. I've got a few more questions I'd like to ask but I'm aware it's off-topic so I'll do that via pm.
Did anybody else hear about how much Tau got a boost. I was thinking my upcoming list would handle Tau but their BS un-needed boost might make it pointless anyway. Dunno why they had to boost Tau. At this point any mediocre Tau player could probably beat all Dark Eldar players and lists and i'm super salty about this.
I dunno if my Wracks in raiders w/ dissies with dark technomancers boost and mortal wounds on a 5+ when charging would help even if the raiders charged in first to soak up shots. I mean 30 wracks charging a riptide could mostly take it down by themselves but handling all those drones and everything is also gonna be tough.
I guess i'll just have to see. Might take a month or two to get everything I need though. Perhaps if I use more venoms I can shoot down the drones easier but maybe mandrakes or something could do a better job of that. I'll have to think about it.
vipoid wrote:Wow, thanks for all that information, Amishprn86.
I feel kinda bad, though, as I was actually more interested in the opposite - making a Dark Eldar army that resembled a WHFB army.
However, you've actually piqued my interest with regard to Age of Sigmar. I've got a few more questions I'd like to ask but I'm aware it's off-topic so I'll do that via pm.
PM sent
flamingkillamajig wrote:Did anybody else hear about how much Tau got a boost. I was thinking my upcoming list would handle Tau but their BS un-needed boost might make it pointless anyway. Dunno why they had to boost Tau. At this point any mediocre Tau player could probably beat all Dark Eldar players and lists and i'm super salty about this.
I dunno if my Wracks in raiders w/ dissies with dark technomancers boost and mortal wounds on a 5+ when charging would help even if the raiders charged in first to soak up shots. I mean 30 wracks charging a riptide could mostly take it down by themselves but handling all those drones and everything is also gonna be tough.
I guess i'll just have to see. Might take a month or two to get everything I need though. Perhaps if I use more venoms I can shoot down the drones easier but maybe mandrakes or something could do a better job of that. I'll have to think about it.
Honestly, i haven't looked and don't really care, GW is a run away train at this point and i'm just playing local friends without PA and mono book rules b.c we all are tired of it right now. BUT i know the local Tau players are very hyped, so i guess its good?
For what it's worth the main Tau player thinks it's good and needed even though his tau were already crushing my dark eldar.
I wish I could play some games with friends that excluded some stuff. Don't know why they had to buff marines and tau so much. Soon enough this will resemble 7th ed 40k again where my dark eldar got blasted off the field mostly by turn 2 vs tau regardless of line of sight or not. It's not that bad yet I think but then I never faced new tau, new space marines or new sisters of battle so this all might change. Who even knows what they did with GSC.
Honestly the raider/dissie spam list you showed plus wracks that do a mortal wound on a 5+ to charge are probably the only way we can remain halfway decent. At this point it's probably the only competitive thing we can do.
I am a big fan of mechanized armies. I normally play with 3 Raiders filled with 10 warriors, splinter racks.and as Flayed Skull.
I then always run 3 Venoms with 5 warriors, blaster or shredders and Obsidian Rose.
I am flirting with trying the 3 Ravagers as Black Heart with a camping Archon and a warrior screen. Black Heart isn't my favorite as I never roll 6s for saves and rarely use Vect.
What opinions are out there on going more troop mechanized vs Heavy blasting with Black Heart in Casual games?
I like the redundancy that MSU in transports bring to Drukhari. It feels thematically 'right' that you can laugh (cackle?) off the loss boats , as there are plenty more where they came from, and there is nothing super valuable that your opponent can specifically target.
Triple Dissy Ravagers with a Black Heart WotLM Archon are clearly both very effective and competitive, but I don't like having multiple Kabals, hate the idea of a footslogging Archon, and I find Ravagers an absolute pain to transport.
I dunno if I could go with kabal outside of flayed skull at this point. I might do it for dissie ravagers though flayed skull gives them speed and takes away enemy cover saves. Venoms however just seem to need the cover save negating ability and the re roll 1s to hit. If I could take both kabals with one in a smaller kabal I'd go for warriors in venoms with flayed skull and dissie ravagers with black heart.
I want to do warriors in raiders with some nice special weapons but I think in points cost there are more effective things you can do.
That said I don't play super casual and I might actually play semi competitive fairly soon (or however competitive mono dark eldar can get right now). For that reason you might want to do things a bit your own way if you want to go casual.
I am a big fan of mechanized armies. I normally play with 3 Raiders filled with 10 warriors, splinter racks.and as Flayed Skull.
I then always run 3 Venoms with 5 warriors, blaster or shredders and Obsidian Rose.
I am flirting with trying the 3 Ravagers as Black Heart with a camping Archon and a warrior screen. Black Heart isn't my favorite as I never roll 6s for saves and rarely use Vect.
What opinions are out there on going more troop mechanized vs Heavy blasting with Black Heart in Casual games?
In casual games I've generally avoided taking more than 2 Ravagers (sometimes I don't even take 2). They're effective but I find them pretty boring as they're little more than a turret.
I like using a lot of Warriors as I'm an old-school chap and I like my armies to actually look and feel like well-rounded armies. I used to play exclusively Poison Tongue but recently I've started to flirt with Flayed Skull instead.
Also, I used to take a mix of Raiders and Venoms but I've gradually come over to only using Venoms.
The thing for me is that I rarely have much use for the extra transport space Raiders provide. Yes, I can fit a 10-man Warrior squad in them, but I don't want to take 10-man Warrior squads. I think both of our Heavy Weapons are garbage (the last thing I need are extra Splinter shots and the Dark Lance costs way too much on a unit that suffers the normal penalty to move and fire), so I'd want to just take 2 5-man squads. And then I'd just want to put them in their own transports so that I'm not concentrating my resources.
Anyway, I'd say ~5 units of Warriors in Venoms has worked reasonably well for me so far.
Ok, I like what has been said...a clear split between casual and competitive gaming is very helpful.
I'll save the Ravager play for competitive play and stick to what I like for casual.
I also love the visuals of Drukhari......While I have and play all four of my Venoms in each game, nothing pleases my eye more than the Raider barge. I hope they come out with more variations of it.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Ravagers really aren't so broken that you should feel bad for using them.
I'd have to agree with you. Ravagers are good but not including them often makes things an uphill battle. Disintegrator ravagers are only good because they fill a role most dark eldar units don't have. They have good range, kill MEQ units well without endangering themselves, the strength is in a good middling zone, ap is pretty good, they can actually benefit from archons boosting them (unlike non-flayed skull mounted infantry) and damage for volume of shots is nice (dissies aren't great vs tanks but are ok and given invulnerable saves on some tough vehicles it's probably the better choice). Also against infantry with invulnerable saves dissies tend to negate just enough armor that the invulnerable save gets used.
Also if anybody thinks ravagers are too OP keep in mind both ravagers and razorwing jetfighters got cost increases and the jets didn't even need em. Thats also 2 of the 3 units we have that can use dissies. I mean I preferred void ravens anyway but the jets didn't need a base points increase regardless of loadout. Keep in mind talos remain under-costed and you can take up to 9 of them in 2k pts! Yeah let's nerf ravagers though even though you can only take 3 in 2000 pts.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Ravagers really aren't so broken that you should feel bad for using them.
Just to be clear, I don't think they're broken (especially compared to stuff like Marines). I just think they're a rather boring unit to be taking 3 of in a casual game. Shooting tends to be the least interactive phase at the best of times but at least Warriors in Raiders/Venoms generally need to manoeuvre around a lot to get within optimum range whilst not leaving themselves too exposed. Ravagers are often little more than turrets that just pivot each turn to blow something off the board.
What's more, taking the Black Heart Spearhead typically means using the Archon with Labyrinthine Cunning and Vect's Poetry Recital, who does nothing all game except stand in one place, buffing the Ravagers. An efficient use of an Archon, for sure, but hardly a fun one.
I also love the visuals of Drukhari......While I have and play all four of my Venoms in each game, nothing pleases my eye more than the Raider barge. I hope they come out with more variations of it.
IMO Dark Eldar have the best range of any army when it comes to aesthetics. I think the basic Kabalites and Wyches are close to perfect. There's plenty of variety, they're fully customisation - not only with parts from their own kits but also with parts from other kits in the range - and they're nicely detailed without being over-designed. I think Scourges are still the best winged-infantry models GW has ever made, and (in spite of being old and Failcast) I still adore the Mandrake aesthetic.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Ravagers really aren't so broken that you should feel bad for using them.
Just to be clear, I don't think they're broken (especially compared to stuff like Marines). I just think they're a rather boring unit to be taking 3 of in a casual game. Shooting tends to be the least interactive phase at the best of times but at least Warriors in Raiders/Venoms generally need to manoeuvre around a lot to get within optimum range whilst not leaving themselves too exposed. Ravagers are often little more than turrets that just pivot each turn to blow something off the board.
What's more, taking the Black Heart Spearhead typically means using the Archon with Labyrinthine Cunning and Vect's Poetry Recital, who does nothing all game except stand in one place, buffing the Ravagers. An efficient use of an Archon, for sure, but hardly a fun one.
I also love the visuals of Drukhari......While I have and play all four of my Venoms in each game, nothing pleases my eye more than the Raider barge. I hope they come out with more variations of it.
IMO Dark Eldar have the best range of any army when it comes to aesthetics. I think the basic Kabalites and Wyches are close to perfect. There's plenty of variety, they're fully customisation - not only with parts from their own kits but also with parts from other kits in the range - and they're nicely detailed without being over-designed. I think Scourges are still the best winged-infantry models GW has ever made, and (in spite of being old and Failcast) I still adore the Mandrake aesthetic.
What else are you going to use points on though? There's only so many Kalabites you can take before THAT is boring. The complaint is equivalent to saying taking three Predators or Tyranofexes is boring for the list. Main difference is neither of those armies are automatically brought down not taking those units, whereas Kabals have the absolute necessary need for those points to be used on Ravagers.
What else are you going to use points on though? There's only so many Kalabites you can take before THAT is boring.
Covens? Wych Cults?
Or are we talking about a Kabal-only army? If so, yeah, your choices are a lot more limited. Though you could still take, say, a couple of Ravagers and then a Razorwing or Voidraven just to mix things up a little.
You've also got Mandrakes, Scourges and Incubi to consider. Probably not the most competitive choices, but surely one of the main benefits of playing casually is that you can relax a little and play around with units you wouldn't use in more competitive games?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The complaint is equivalent to saying taking three Predators or Tyranofexes is boring for the list. Main difference is neither of those armies are automatically brought down not taking those units, whereas Kabals have the absolute necessary need for those points to be used on Ravagers.
I would have to disagree with that. I've never taken more than 2 Ravagers with my DE (often only 1), and I've still won far more games than I've lost.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Ravagers really aren't so broken that you should feel bad for using them.
Just to be clear, I don't think they're broken (especially compared to stuff like Marines). I just think they're a rather boring unit to be taking 3 of in a casual game. Shooting tends to be the least interactive phase at the best of times but at least Warriors in Raiders/Venoms generally need to manoeuvre around a lot to get within optimum range whilst not leaving themselves too exposed. Ravagers are often little more than turrets that just pivot each turn to blow something off the board.
What's more, taking the Black Heart Spearhead typically means using the Archon with Labyrinthine Cunning and Vect's Poetry Recital, who does nothing all game except stand in one place, buffing the Ravagers. An efficient use of an Archon, for sure, but hardly a fun one.
I also love the visuals of Drukhari......While I have and play all four of my Venoms in each game, nothing pleases my eye more than the Raider barge. I hope they come out with more variations of it.
IMO Dark Eldar have the best range of any army when it comes to aesthetics. I think the basic Kabalites and Wyches are close to perfect. There's plenty of variety, they're fully customisation - not only with parts from their own kits but also with parts from other kits in the range - and they're nicely detailed without being over-designed. I think Scourges are still the best winged-infantry models GW has ever made, and (in spite of being old and Failcast) I still adore the Mandrake aesthetic.
So the big difference between ravagers and a lot of other units is you can have only 3 ravagers and they're not that hard to take out in comparison to other vehicles from other armies. If you think ravagers are boring turrets I can only imagine your opinion of tau riptides and most of the tau gun-line overall. Lord knows stealth suits and ghostkeel movement are about as much as tau have to do aside from shooting. Guard are just a gun-line too mostly. At least dark eldar are often a moving gun-line with some inability to remain completely a gun-line and options for melee and the ability to leave melee if we somehow survive (vehicles and reavers can do this).
Actually ravagers sometimes have to move around to stay within range to some degree. 36" range when starting within 12" on your table side means there's always gonna be a part of the board you can't easily touch without moving and then intervening ruins also effects this or anything preventing LOS. This doesn't even include the other deployment types. I'd use these more if each 4x6 table at the gw didn't have one side forced into the wall thus giving at least 1 person a really uncomfortable deployment in some scenarios).
The best range of models? I disagree. We have raiders and ravagers look almost exactly alike, our planes almost fit the same roles currently. All of our same looking models like trueborn, and bloodbrides as well as 2 types of haemonculus (masters vs secondary heroes) met that chopping block in skyrim before the dragon was helpful enough to save the dovahkin to which he eventually killed the dragon as thanks. Then we had like 4-5 interesting and new characters that would've given more identity and personality to dark eldar as a faction (I heard the hellion hero actually made hellions worth taking) but they got the chopping block without receiving a model. Even vect our faction Leader has no model? That'd be equivalent to killing all but 2 special characters in a tau army. No far sight or shadowsun but you get an ethereal leader. Oh and all the other heroes? They decided to go on retirement leave. That is dark eldar treatment of special characters. Also every time we get a revamped model we didn't need (incubi) it's usually at a cost of taking out something infinitely more valuable like trueborn. The model wasn't even that bad. You could've just fixed up the ugly af grotesques finecast models and made those plastic. I honestly know people that convert just because those models look crappy.
I like the army and stuff but instead of putting beloved units on the chopping block add new ones or new weapons types or something. The singular thing we got since 5th edition was I think new wracks with the ossefactor (which the gun itself currently sucks in 8th) and they made the void raven. I guess they couldnt cut off every cool thing 5th promised us even though they keep trying to. Compared to what dark eldar lost I find this bs.
There's also the diversity of the beast units nobody uses, some archons retinue which have limits and people probably still don't use mostly, hellions nobody wants to touch and all the mercenary units people aren't sure are even good enough without obsessions boosting them. Scourge and mandrakes are probably the only decent mercenaries and in many cases im not even sure scourge are good enough.
Give us a new unique vehicle, a more elite and hulking mandrake the size of a grotesque, make a super heavy vehicle and/or monster from covens. Scourge exist from coven altered dark eldar. Even wracks are altered by covens. How hard would it be for covens to alter dark eldar in other more interesting ways that are more graceful and count as kabalite units, wych units or mercenaries. Maybe give dark eldar wych ladies spider bodies or forms of snakes. Wyches catch a lot of beasts. How hard would it be for a haemonculus to be like "what if I allowed your wyches to get modified with these thermal vision eyes to prevent your enemy forcing negative modifiers on your shooting or melee?" I mean aside from having a gajillion types of gases and things that effect a person's mental state at best we get what? Incredibly wimpy phantasm and terrorfex grenades. Also where are the sniper rifles. Only acothysts and haemonculus get them and they garbage right now. Same goes for husk blade, shadow field and the archons overall which got nerfed into oblivion.
So the big difference between ravagers and a lot of other units is you can have only 3 ravagers and they're not that hard to take out in comparison to other vehicles from other armies. If you think ravagers are boring turrets I can only imagine your opinion of tau riptides and most of the tau gun-line overall. Lord knows stealth suits and ghostkeel movement are about as much as tau have to do aside from shooting.
I mean, there's a reason I don't play Tau.
Anyway, to reiterate, this is just how I play. I just find 3 Ravagers excessive in casual games. I'm not trying to claim that Ravagers are overpowered (I don't even think the recent point increase was necessary, tbh) or that you should feel bad for using them. I consider them functional but not particularly interesting or exciting (especially in a BH Spearhead).
For me, casual games are where I want to be trying out all manner of less effective (but usually more fun/flavourful) tactics. Or messing around with units I wouldn't bother with in a competitive game.
Actually ravagers sometimes have to move around to stay within range to some degree. 36" range when starting within 12" on your table side means there's always gonna be a part of the board you can't easily touch without moving and then intervening ruins also effects this or anything preventing LOS. This doesn't even include the other deployment types. I'd use these more if each 4x6 table at the gw didn't have one side forced into the wall thus giving at least 1 person a really uncomfortable deployment in some scenarios).
In my experience, terrain has a negligible impact on LoS in 8th. Unless you're literally putting concrete bricks on the table, most terrain has gaps, holes, windows or somesuch that allows LoS to be drawn through it.
The best range of models? I disagree. We have raiders and ravagers look almost exactly alike, our planes almost fit the same roles currently. All of our same looking models like trueborn, and bloodbrides as well as 2 types of haemonculus (masters vs secondary heroes) met that chopping block in skyrim before the dragon was helpful enough to save the dovahkin to which he eventually killed the dragon as thanks. Then we had like 4-5 interesting and new characters that would've given more identity and personality to dark eldar as a faction (I heard the hellion hero actually made hellions worth taking) but they got the chopping block without receiving a model. Even vect our faction Leader has no model? That'd be equivalent to killing all but 2 special characters in a tau army. No far sight or shadowsun but you get an ethereal leader. Oh and all the other heroes? They decided to go on retirement leave. That is dark eldar treatment of special characters. Also every time we get a revamped model we didn't need (incubi) it's usually at a cost of taking out something infinitely more valuable like trueborn. The model wasn't even that bad. You could've just fixed up the ugly af grotesques finecast models and made those plastic. I honestly know people that convert just because those models look crappy.
To be clear, I was merely talking about the aesthetics of our existing models.
If you want to instead talk about scope, then our range is indeed extremely limited - especially in the HQ section (with, as you say, swathes of characters removed, along with a great deal of wargear).
Please don't for one minute assume that I am happy with our current lack of options. I have spoken many, many times about the absurdity of splitting our army such that each of our subfactions has just 1 generic HQ choice. Why can't Archons and Succubi take Scourge Wings or Reaver Jetbikes? It wouldn't even be hard to justify model-wise as you could easily kitbash HQs by mixing a couple of kits. Why is it that the Kabalite and Wych kits are only allowed to support one unit, yet my IG-infantry kit can support about 12 different units?
I also completely agree that Incubi were probably one of the models least in need of an update. And whilst Drazhar was old, at least he still existed and there were options to kitbash a better one. Meanwhile, if you want an HQ with any mobility options at all you have no option besides 'use Eldar instead'.
There's also the diversity of the beast units nobody uses, some archons retinue which have limits and people probably still don't use mostly, hellions nobody wants to touch and all the mercenary units people aren't sure are even good enough without obsessions boosting them. Scourge and mandrakes are probably the only decent mercenaries and in many cases im not even sure scourge are good enough.
Indeed. All the things Phoenix Rising and Chapter Approved could have fixed but didn't bother with. Because that sort of fix is apparently reserved for Marine armies.
Give us a new unique vehicle, a more elite and hulking mandrake the size of a grotesque, make a super heavy vehicle and/or monster from covens. Scourge exist from coven altered dark eldar. Even wracks are altered by covens. How hard would it be for covens to alter dark eldar in other more interesting ways that are more graceful and count as kabalite units, wych units or mercenaries. Maybe give dark eldar wych ladies spider bodies or forms of snakes. Wyches catch a lot of beasts. How hard would it be for a haemonculus to be like "what if I allowed your wyches to get modified with these thermal vision eyes to prevent your enemy forcing negative modifiers on your shooting or melee?" I mean aside from having a gajillion types of gases and things that effect a person's mental state at best we get what? Incredibly wimpy phantasm and terrorfex grenades. Also where are the sniper rifles. Only acothysts and haemonculus get them and they garbage right now. Same goes for husk blade, shadow field and the archons overall which got nerfed into oblivion.
In terms of Mandrakes, I'd prefer to see a Mandrake HQ. Maybe a pseudo-psyker with some tricky abilities, or some form of assassin.
I am heavily biased on that point though.
Spoiler:
Anyway, I agree also about the Archon. I've always hated the Shadwfield mechanic, but this is the edition where the rules really do seem out of whack with the rest of the game. It seems like a 5++ with a -1 to hit (like Mandrakes have) would be a far better way of representing it. But if nothing else I wish we at least had the option of a regular 4++ instead. And really all of the Archon's weapons seem very weak for what is ostensibly a glass-cannon.
As you say, there are so many things you could do with Dark Eldar but it seems the designers just aren't interested in them, and nor are they prepared to accept suggestions from those who are.
You definitely don't need ravagers even for kabal only forces, though I'll mirror Vipoid and disclaim that I am not saying they are bad or anything but there are alternatives, especially for casual play since ravagers are very one dimensional and you will have more fun for longer with variety. There is a strong argument to take either or both of the fliers instead if you want mobile armored AT. Then you can always swap to dissy raiders from running venoms. You might get less gun per point compared to a ravager with raiders, but you get way more wounds and raiders generally have benefits over venoms that are hard to notice on paper, namely their larger profile which is very useful for blocking.
For casual games I generally take a single ravager at lower points (I think the game is much better at 1000-1500) and I'll try to take one of each flier and the other AT is on my infantry and transports. I have yet to find myself needing more AT and this gives my army a ton of variety which makes it fun for both me and my opponent, whenever I spam ravagers and razorwings the game just gets really samey and boring especially over time. You also future proof your army since your just another CA or codex/edition change away from anything being nerfed into the ground and it sucks much worse to gamble on multiples of one thing when they happen to be hit.
I'm not a fan of Ravagers, and for my own games (which are admittedly on the casual side), I get my anti tank on the Kabal stuff from a Blaster and a Blast Pistol in each Venom.
reality is reality.
