Since I love the looks of the Drukhari Jetbikes and I got my hands on a really cheap Gangs of Commoragh box I ... well lets say I liked the Idea of a lightning fast army and then bought another box, then another one then sold all the hellions and bought more stuff and I now have a pile of models of which I really like the looks but have yet to Play. (... and build ... and paint ... for the most part)
From what I've read a Wych Cult army is considered the lowest tier of Drukhari armies but I really hope I can still make them work in a player group of wannabe Powergamers
What I have piled up so far is the following:
2 Succubi
20 Wyches
4 Venoms
30 Reavers
2 Razorwing Jetfighters
1 Voidraven Bomber
Loaded with Blasters and Lances to the max I should get roughly 1750 Points out of that. My questions are:
Can this madness work? +1A trait for Maximum carnage or Charge after advance for t1 charge reavers? Am I missing something important?
I just found out that puppetswar sells crow models so I plan on getting a beastmaster and a load of Razorwing flocks next to go with the theme.
What I am afraid of is that I may have absolutely zero staying power. Coven Armies are really tough but Reavers feel a little brittle. I am a little scared of going second with this army composition.
What would you do with this army? Help a Drukhari noob out please
Reavers can definitely do work. I played against a list that had 2x12 blaster reavers at 1000 in cult of the red grief. Insane amount of board cover, meaning those blasters get far. Then they do tasty dmg in combat and are a brilliant screen. Not a list you expect to see that's for sure.
What my opponent did was give both squads +1 toughness too, by having 7 units so choosing +1 tough, allocating 5, then choosing +1 tough again. Nasty.
Reavers [13 PL, 308pts]: 4x Grav-Talon
. Arena Champion
. 7x Reaver
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
Reavers [13 PL, 308pts]: 4x Grav-Talon
. Arena Champion
. 7x Reaver
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
Reavers [6 PL, 110pts]: Grav-Talon
. Arena Champion
. 3x Reaver
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat lance
With the farseer change, and given the chance to take out the raider, I'm considering getting 9 grotesques. People have been saying they are amazing but I do have a few questions.
My list was something like (non tourney compliant I know, was semi competitive)
So with the change, the farseer has to go. I'd thought I'd take the opportunity to ditch the raider as it never did a lot for me. So that leaves space for 9 grots. Or, I could put in urien for another strength which would mean I drop a grot for him. Lose mask, can I still take alliance of agony with him? Gain a strength + other stuff.
What do you think? Hopefully our loss of the farseer makes it much less one sided for me. (I was unbeaten with the farseer)
McMagnus Mindbullets wrote: With the farseer change, and given the chance to take out the raider, I'm considering getting 9 grotesques. People have been saying they are amazing but I do have a few questions.
My list was something like (non tourney compliant I know, was semi competitive)
So with the change, the farseer has to go. I'd thought I'd take the opportunity to ditch the raider as it never did a lot for me. So that leaves space for 9 grots. Or, I could put in urien for another strength which would mean I drop a grot for him. Lose mask, can I still take alliance of agony with him? Gain a strength + other stuff.
What do you think? Hopefully our loss of the farseer makes it much less one sided for me. (I was unbeaten with the farseer)
Cheers
You could swap one of your Archons for Yvraine for Psychic defence and some mortal wound generation. If you take Urien he can still be a target for Alliance of Agony.
So yesterday i faced a competitive tau player and i actually won. He started the game with maybe 17 CP vs my 8 and by game end he spent them all as did i. The mission was Eternal War and i think it was about holding points based on the roll. Killed one of his 2 riptides and 2 of his ghostkeels as well as various other fire warriors, drone squads and 2 of his 3 stealth suits.
Anyway i won at turn 5 when the game ended. I only had like 2 or so kabalites warriors left and he still had a riptide with like only 4 wounds taken, some fire warriors, characters, some drones and 3 broadsides.
Honestly if i was to do it again i would've had my 10 grotesques and haemonculus DS near his fire warriors and go after them instead since the riptides and other big suits can just fly away. Not to mention the best you can really do to a broadside even with them all using flesh gauntlets is almost kill one which may knock it down a profile but they have an ability which counts it at full anyway. The fire warriors on the other hand would've just been mega-dead and excepting for a character aura ability (which if you kill he can't do it) he couldn't just leave combat and shoot his fire warriors at me.
Anyway things i learned is that grotesques esp. boosted can eat a lot of enemy firepower, electro-corrosive whips are pretty amazing vs monsters with invulnerable saves and good armor (in fact i may take a lot more of them where i'm able to get em) and ALWAYS take dissies on ravagers as they can do damage to more targets. I will also continue to use void lances on void ravens but i'm unsure if i should just cut them from my list or what.
Headlss wrote: I think flesh gauntlets only works on infantry. Might be wrong, and the big suits are not infantry.
Flesh gauntlets do mortal wounds on anything except vehicles if i recall correctly.
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Void ravens are alright in 8th. The void lance is stronger than dark lances which can be ok and they are -1 to hit since they're flyers and depending on what targets you hit the void mine can either be worthwhile or kinda crap. With drones they have inv. saves but the unit sizes are kinda meh. Currently MEQ armies are kinda in the toilet so void mine doesn't help as much as it could. Void mines also end up being super good vs genestealers.
In 7th if a Void Raven was in the right battle it could legit spam missiles and wipe out a huge unit after dropping a mine on something else. Totally helped me out in certain scenarios.
Dark Eldar anti-tank and anti-monster is in a really odd place right now. Against Riptides and monsters with really good inv. saves we need something like grotesques with flesh gauntlets with re-rolls to wound due to the 2 CP stratagem. Of course most of those units can just fly away as well leaving you open to being shot or put into melee with something else so you might want to murder some of their supporting units with ranged firepower first (at least in Tau's case). That said in the case of a vehicle army poison of any kind is mostly worthless and most of our mortal wound units excepting haywire units and mandrakes (which oddly mortal wound anything on a 6) can't do their mortal wounds.
Either way we're in a weird place as we don't have a steadily reliable anti-tank and anti-monster unit. I always feel like vs normal tanks and monsters dark lances on flyers are good and maybe dissies on ravagers with archons armed with blasters supporting them (usually aside from characters i try not to take blasters as they get torn up when they get too close). Against vehicles with inv. saves haywire is probably best though considering the life expectancy of scourge i'd give them 1 turn of shooting average though talos should be able to equip some (i haven't used talos yet but they should do well enough). Dissie ravagers may be alright vs knights and other good inv. save vehicles. For good inv. save monsters it's flesh gauntlets and maybe electro corrosive whips along with dissie fire support. Poisoned shooting can still hurt ghostkeels provided you kill the drones first but it's still durable.
That's all i can gather. Of course i'm not exactly a great dark eldar player but i've had some success.
Headlss wrote: I think flesh gauntlets only works on infantry. Might be wrong, and the big suits are not infantry.
Flesh gauntlets do mortal wounds on anything except vehicles if i recall correctly.
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Void ravens are alright in 8th. The void lance is stronger than dark lances which can be ok and they are -1 to hit since they're flyers and depending on what targets you hit the void mine can either be worthwhile or kinda crap. With drones they have inv. saves but the unit sizes are kinda meh. Currently MEQ armies are kinda in the toilet so void mine doesn't help as much as it could. Void mines also end up being super good vs genestealers.
In 7th if a Void Raven was in the right battle it could legit spam missiles and wipe out a huge unit after dropping a mine on something else. Totally helped me out in certain scenarios.
Dark Eldar anti-tank and anti-monster is in a really odd place right now. Against Riptides and monsters with really good inv. saves we need something like grotesques with flesh gauntlets with re-rolls to wound due to the 2 CP stratagem. Of course most of those units can just fly away as well leaving you open to being shot or put into melee with something else so you might want to murder some of their supporting units with ranged firepower first (at least in Tau's case). That said in the case of a vehicle army poison of any kind is mostly worthless and most of our mortal wound units excepting haywire units and mandrakes (which oddly mortal wound anything on a 6) can't do their mortal wounds.
Either way we're in a weird place as we don't have a steadily reliable anti-tank and anti-monster unit. I always feel like vs normal tanks and monsters dark lances on flyers are good and maybe dissies on ravagers with archons armed with blasters supporting them (usually aside from characters i try not to take blasters as they get torn up when they get too close). Against vehicles with inv. saves haywire is probably best though considering the life expectancy of scourge i'd give them 1 turn of shooting average though talos should be able to equip some (i haven't used talos yet but they should do well enough). Dissie ravagers may be alright vs knights and other good inv. save vehicles. For good inv. save monsters it's flesh gauntlets and maybe electro corrosive whips along with dissie fire support. Poisoned shooting can still hurt ghostkeels provided you kill the drones first but it's still durable.
That's all i can gather. Of course i'm not exactly a great dark eldar player but i've had some success.
Our whole army is Anti MC and all Kabal/Coven can have anti-tank, we are not CWE we dont have dedicated units, sure you can say Scourge and Trueborn, but they are not real dedicated units they can be modeled to fit a role. Units like Fire dragons are a dedicated unit, or Dark Reapers, or Swooping Hawks, etc... DE has never had any unit dedicated via bonus rules other than high AP, Haywire, or Poison.
Has anyone tried a Prophet of Flesh wrack unit with the "Black Cornucopians" stratagem?
Which allows you to, at end of movement phase, remove it from battle field, then set it up again within 6" of table edge and more than 9" away from enemy units. (which can only happen starting 2nd turn...right?)
So, a 10-man blob with 4++, FNP could be onery... yes?
whembly wrote: Has anyone tried a Prophet of Flesh wrack unit with the "Black Cornucopians" stratagem?
Which allows you to, at end of movement phase, remove it from battle field, then set it up again within 6" of table edge and more than 9" away from enemy units. (which can only happen starting 2nd turn...right?)
So, a 10-man blob with 4++, FNP could be onery... yes?
That's what I'm doing in my list. It was many pages back so you might have missed that mini discussion but it was one of the better options for my list since i am trying to do a true Coven list rather than the admittedly better combined forces of the Dark City type thing.
Scourges [5 PL, 128pts]
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Solarite: Shardcarbine
Scourges [5 PL, 108pts]
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Heat lance
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Heat lance
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Heat lance
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Heat lance
. Solarite: Shardcarbine
Scourges [5 PL, 120pts]
. Scourge
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Dark Lance
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Dark Lance
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Dark Lance
. Solarite: Shardcarbine
whembly wrote: Has anyone tried a Prophet of Flesh wrack unit with the "Black Cornucopians" stratagem?
Which allows you to, at end of movement phase, remove it from battle field, then set it up again within 6" of table edge and more than 9" away from enemy units. (which can only happen starting 2nd turn...right?)
So, a 10-man blob with 4++, FNP could be onery... yes?
Most players that play with PoF and wracks do it, always take at least 1 unit of 10, 2 units of 10 is a bit much, but if you have the points go for it.
I like to play Recon in ITC and this has given it to me a couple times, also remember it works on turn 1, something to think about.
Our whole army is Anti MC and all Kabal/Coven can have anti-tank, we are not CWE we dont have dedicated units, sure you can say Scourge and Trueborn, but they are not real dedicated units they can be modeled to fit a role. Units like Fire dragons are a dedicated unit, or Dark Reapers, or Swooping Hawks, etc... DE has never had any unit dedicated via bonus rules other than high AP, Haywire, or Poison.
In the case of poisoned weapons look through the book and find any poisoned weapon at all that has an AP value. It's a short list. In the case of riptides their armor is 2+ with a 3++ inv. save and possibly a bit of FNP. The only poisoned weapons that cut through any armor whatsoever are based around Coven of 12 wracks or electro-corrosive whips. Also Electro-corrosive whips are the only poisoned weapon we have that does more than 1 damage and also has an alright AP value which helps a LOT. Sad bit is both of those come on wracks mostly which while they could have a decent role it's rather funky when they can be geared towards killing some monsters with invulnerable saves that tend to move really fast anyway (daemon prince, fly-rants and riptides). Of course this is where the haemonculus themselves shine a bit brighter. Of course grotesques can fill a similar role as well with monster killing though i imagine wracks (if they survive) can do it pretty well as well esp. with electro-corrosive whips.
Our whole army is Anti MC and all Kabal/Coven can have anti-tank, we are not CWE we dont have dedicated units, sure you can say Scourge and Trueborn, but they are not real dedicated units they can be modeled to fit a role. Units like Fire dragons are a dedicated unit, or Dark Reapers, or Swooping Hawks, etc... DE has never had any unit dedicated via bonus rules other than high AP, Haywire, or Poison.
In the case of poisoned weapons look through the book and find any poisoned weapon at all that has an AP value. It's a short list. In the case of riptides their armor is 2+ with a 3++ inv. save and possibly a bit of FNP. The only poisoned weapons that cut through any armor whatsoever are based around Coven of 12 wracks or electro-corrosive whips. Also Electro-corrosive whips are the only poisoned weapon we have that does more than 1 damage and also has an alright AP value which helps a LOT. Sad bit is both of those come on wracks mostly which while they could have a decent role it's rather funky when they can be geared towards killing some monsters with invulnerable saves that tend to move really fast anyway (daemon prince, fly-rants and riptides). Of course this is where the haemonculus themselves shine a bit brighter. Of course grotesques can fill a similar role as well with monster killing though i imagine wracks (if they survive) can do it pretty well as well esp. with electro-corrosive whips.
Again, our full book is good against MC, i even said Coven. Mandrakes are as well oddly, sure it'll only be 2-3 MW's and 3-4 normal damage, but for a DSing -1 to hit 5++/6+++ unit that can force to be dealt with, 4-5 wounds is good, especailly when you shoot them with other units. We dont shoot and kill units with 1 unit like CWE does, we need redundancies. We dont have a special tool for each job, we do have units that are better at melee vs infantry or vs MC's sure.
vipoid wrote: How is Obsdian Rose doing these days? Does it compare well to Flayed Skull and/or Black Heart?
I have run obsidian rose since 8th come out. I like it. I really like having the extra range especially on the blasters. I also really like the relic 'armor of Misery' I think its called. An Archon with 3+ 2++ and -1 to hit in melee is quite tough.
I've been thinking about flayed skull but I don't have enough skimmers to load all my guys up. I usually set my warriors up in a fire base and leave them there. Which I why I want the extra 6" range.
vipoid wrote: How is Obsdian Rose doing these days? Does it compare well to Flayed Skull and/or Black Heart?
I think if you are running lots of special weapons then you'll want Obi Rose over Flaw Skull, Flaw skull is really good on Flyers and venom spam that has limited special weapons in units. If you are running Trueborn, or a Blaster/Shredder in all kabals it might be worth it over the other two.
For me its always either Black Heart or Flawed Skull, ignore cover +3" or 6+++ on vehicles/+1PFP are to me more important than extra inches of weapons
I think if you are running lots of special weapons then you'll want Obi Rose over Flaw Skull, Flaw skull is really good on Flyers and venom spam that has limited special weapons in units. If you are running Trueborn, or a Blaster/Shredder in all kabals it might be worth it over the other two.
Well, I don't run Trueborn but I never run Kabalites without Blasters.
For me its always either Black Heart or Flawed Skull, ignore cover +3" or 6+++ on vehicles/+1PFP are to me more important than extra inches of weapons
That's fair. I'll have to try Flayed Skull sometime. Ignores Cover is very useful and I like their relic. The only thing I really dislike is that you lose all the bonuses the moment your transport is destroyed.
I've actually been using Poison Tongue until now. However, I've all but given up on the Soul Seeker and spending points on Lhamaeans and a transport for my Archon just don't seem worth it.
Flayed Skull is *nasty* in a skimmer heavy army. Vect and his boys get all the glory, but not giving a damn about cover is a huge equalizer against 3+ infantry hugging rocks to get a 2+ against your poison. The +3 move also means even after being degraded all your vees are still zooming about like Wylie Coyote on PCP.
If you're just running Ravagers and flyers with Coven/Cult support you'll get more mileage out of Black Heart, but if you've got Venoms in any meaningful quantity Flayed Skull does serious work.
Sterling191 wrote: Flayed Skull is *nasty* in a skimmer heavy army. Vect and his boys get all the glory, but not giving a damn about cover is a huge equalizer against 3+ infantry hugging rocks to get a 2+ against your poison. The +3 move also means even after being degraded all your vees are still zooming about like Wylie Coyote on PCP.
If you're just running Ravagers and flyers with Coven/Cult support you'll get more mileage out of Black Heart, but if you've got Venoms in any meaningful quantity Flayed Skull does serious work.
Flayed Skull is what i have seen overwhelmingly in ITC competitive play. Almost every opponent uses it in ITC events. i can't even recall one that didn't.
Having said that the last guy I played brought 7 planes (yes really) and 7 venoms. i did table all but his two hard to kill Archons. They're like cockroaches. But other than that I did well against it. i think that doing the Flayed Skull thing all out can have a serious achilles heel against some armies like the one I had and I can imagine others. So like most things in this Codex, the more I read it the more I see that mono faction or 90% monofaction type lists just aren't how this codex works the best. I'm quite worried about my own Coven list. It is going to be fun...But I don't know how it will stand up to real competition. We will see quite shortly.
Sterling191 wrote: Flayed Skull is *nasty* in a skimmer heavy army. Vect and his boys get all the glory, but not giving a damn about cover is a huge equalizer against 3+ infantry hugging rocks to get a 2+ against your poison. The +3 move also means even after being degraded all your vees are still zooming about like Wylie Coyote on PCP.
If you're just running Ravagers and flyers with Coven/Cult support you'll get more mileage out of Black Heart, but if you've got Venoms in any meaningful quantity Flayed Skull does serious work.
Flayed Skull is what i have seen overwhelmingly in ITC competitive play. Almost every opponent uses it in ITC events. i can't even recall one that didn't.
Having said that the last guy I played brought 7 planes (yes really) and 7 venoms. i did table all but his two hard to kill Archons. They're like cockroaches. But other than that I did well against it. i think that doing the Flayed Skull thing all out can have a serious achilles heel against some armies like the one I had and I can imagine others. So like most things in this Codex, the more I read it the more I see that mono faction or 90% monofaction type lists just aren't how this codex works the best. I'm quite worried about my own Coven list. It is going to be fun...But I don't know how it will stand up to real competition. We will see quite shortly.
DE flyers are really good, they are basically -1 to be hit Ravagers for 10pts more. I have 3 RWJF and 1 Bomber i use time to time myself, they are amazing, 3 RWJF, 3 Ravagers, and loads of Venoms then you still can have a 8-10 man Grot and/or Talos for something meaty.
DE is not Mono faction, you need to think of it as 3 mini dex's sadly. I wish it wasnt the case but GW really didnt want DE mixing well together like they use to.
DE flyers are really good, they are basically -1 to be hit Ravagers for 10pts more. I have 3 RWJF and 1 Bomber i use time to time myself, they are amazing, 3 RWJF, 3 Ravagers, and loads of Venoms then you still can have a 8-10 man Grot and/or Talos for something meaty.
How do you think Razorwing Missiles compare to a third Disintegrator (or Dark Lance)?
DE flyers are really good, they are basically -1 to be hit Ravagers for 10pts more. I have 3 RWJF and 1 Bomber i use time to time myself, they are amazing, 3 RWJF, 3 Ravagers, and loads of Venoms then you still can have a 8-10 man Grot and/or Talos for something meaty.
How do you think Razorwing Missiles compare to a third Disintegrator (or Dark Lance)?
Its just more options, and i personally like it better, tho the missing the flat AP is what hurts, Mono and Necro missiles are amazing vs anything that has a 3++ (DW with Storm shield for example) and you still have a S7 -1ap re-roll wounds. I dont miss the 3rd Dis as i normally target something else with the missile, 48" is so good.
But i normally have 11-15 Dis cannons already, so i a bit saturated with them.
DE flyers are really good, they are basically -1 to be hit Ravagers for 10pts more. I have 3 RWJF and 1 Bomber i use time to time myself, they are amazing, 3 RWJF, 3 Ravagers, and loads of Venoms then you still can have a 8-10 man Grot and/or Talos for something meaty.
How do you think Razorwing Missiles compare to a third Disintegrator (or Dark Lance)?
Its just more options, and i personally like it better, tho the missing the flat AP is what hurts, Mono and Necro missiles are amazing vs anything that has a 3++ (DW with Storm shield for example) and you still have a S7 -1ap re-roll wounds. I dont miss the 3rd Dis as i normally target something else with the missile, 48" is so good.
But i normally have 11-15 Dis cannons already, so i a bit saturated with them.
That's a lot of dissies. For me i think dissies are more useful on ravagers where you can get some archon boosting their re-rolls to hit. I think somebody mentioned a while ago that it was hard to have ravagers just stay put near an archon but i've actually not had too much trouble with it. I think it may also help to place 2-3 archons at different points around the board and moving the ravagers between them as needed. I'll try it in the future and see how it does.
As for dissies in normal play i'd say i find them to be incredibly useful in general against a wide variety of units. The only issue i really have with them is sometimes they leave something to be desired against tough tanks.
The thing i'm unsure about with both dissies and dark lance or void lance is dissies have trouble vs units like lots of leman russ tanks or similar as well as against certain units (wave serpents come to mind with the -1 damage shield). Dark lance and Void lances just aren't really good against anything but vehicles with a 5+ inv. save or worse. People just re-roll their inv. save the few times they fail it and in my games they fail so little i wonder if they have weighted dice.
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I really wish dark lances on infantry were any good and i'd use them but the constant moving causing you to be -1 to hit doesn't help them esp. since more of the new top codexes have a bunch of -1 modifiers to hit against shooting. Hitting on 4's or 5's with dark lances isn't exactly ideal. Blasters on the other hand just tend to die too fast on any platform they run on except archons and maybe reavers. I just wish reavers could run blasters more efficiently.
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I've also noticed our book is like 3 mini-factions with huge limitations. I was wondering when that'd catch up to us and apparently it already has. I noticed that we can't even take 2 battalions for kabal as we only have archons and it'd be a minimum of 4 archons (at least in 2k pts). This is similar for Covens and Cults too unless you take Cult of Strife or Prophets of Flesh due to special characters but it's still really rough since it's very limiting. Sadly most multi-faction units in our book are actually terrible. Cult and covens also have a similar role and i feel like Covens do it better. That said Cults can technically take everything Kabals can take excepting archons and their retinue, warriors and trueborn and those sweet, sweet Kabal obsessions. So yeah you can still have jets, bombers and ravagers as well as transports with wych cults. It's just wych cults and covens together would be a bit redundant.
That's a lot of dissies. For me i think dissies are more useful on ravagers where you can get some archon boosting their re-rolls to hit. I think somebody mentioned a while ago that it was hard to have ravagers just stay put near an archon but i've actually not had too much trouble with it. I think it may also help to place 2-3 archons at different points around the board and moving the ravagers between them as needed. I'll try it in the future and see how it does.
It's probably doable but it just seems like such a boring use for an Archon. Especially given their complete lack of ranged weapons. At least an Autarch could be shooting a Reaper Launcher from the back of the field but an Archon is just stuck twiddling his thumbs.
As for dissies in normal play i'd say i find them to be incredibly useful in general against a wide variety of units. The only issue i really have with them is sometimes they leave something to be desired against tough tanks.
For me that's an understatement. My Disintegrators have literally never done anything of value against a tank.
The thing i'm unsure about with both dissies and dark lance or void lance is dissies have trouble vs units like lots of leman russ tanks or similar as well as against certain units (wave serpents come to mind with the -1 damage shield). Dark lance and Void lances just aren't really good against anything but vehicles with a 5+ inv. save or worse. People just re-roll their inv. save the few times they fail it and in my games they fail so little i wonder if they have weighted dice.
The one thing I like about Dark Lances against tough vehicles is that when a shot gets through it usually hurts a lot. And even if I roll low, I can spend a CP to reroll it and try for a better result.
Meanwhile, if a single Disintegrator shot gets through all it can ever do is a piddling 2 damage.
I really wish dark lances on infantry were any good and i'd use them but the constant moving causing you to be -1 to hit doesn't help them esp. since more of the new top codexes have a bunch of -1 modifiers to hit against shooting. Hitting on 4's or 5's with dark lances isn't exactly ideal. Blasters on the other hand just tend to die too fast on any platform they run on except archons and maybe reavers. I just wish reavers could run blasters more efficiently.
Yeah, Dark Weapons on infantry are rather disappointing. Especially on Scourges. You've no idea how much I miss my Corsair Balestrike Bands from back in 7th.
To be honest, I think part of the issue is the lack of buffs in our army.
- We've only no psychic powers whatsoever.
- We've only got a single aura that can buff Kabalites (and it's the most basic one possible). I suppose 2 if you count the artefact but otherwise we're really lacking in buffs.
- Our units really want to be in transports, which means that the above auras don't work anyway (even if they're sharing the transport with the HQ) and also encourages them to move.
- Most of our Kabal-buffs are either based on movement or else only buff Splinter weapons (not Darklight ones).
As for Blasters, they're the main reason I've been considering using Obsidian Rose. Going from 18" to 24" seems pretty significant and could make them almost replacement Dark Lances on infantry.
I've also noticed our book is like 3 mini-factions with huge limitations. I was wondering when that'd catch up to us and apparently it already has. I noticed that we can't even take 2 battalions for kabal as we only have archons and it'd be a minimum of 4 archons (at least in 2k pts). This is similar for Covens and Cults too unless you take Cult of Strife or Prophets of Flesh due to special characters but it's still really rough since it's very limiting. Sadly most multi-faction units in our book are actually terrible. Cult and covens also have a similar role and i feel like Covens do it better. That said Cults can technically take everything Kabals can take excepting archons and their retinue, warriors and trueborn and those sweet, sweet Kabal obsessions. So yeah you can still have jets, bombers and ravagers as well as transports with wych cults. It's just wych cults and covens together would be a bit redundant.
I wouldn't necessarily oppose the splitting of our army . . . if GW hadn't stripped us of about half our units. Off the top of my head we've lost:
- Vect
- The Decapitator
- The Duke
- Baron Sathonyx
- Lady Malys
- Jetbike Archons.
- Skyboard Archons
- Jetbike Haemonculi.
- Skyboard Haemonculi
- Dracons
- Mini-Haemonculi
- Harlequins
- Bloodbrides (I know they're in the Index but there's basically 0 point to taking them over regular Wyches)
And unless I'm mistaken we haven't gained a new unit since 5th edition (GW has been engaged in more important projects - like making Bigger Marines and Really Big Marines).
So a codex that had already cut to the bone has now been split into 3 mini-armies (plus Mercenaries), each with fewer units than Sisters of Battle.
It might be bearable if our HQ section (what little of it we have left) wasn't such a complete and utter crapfest.
You know the funny thing is archons have constantly been hit by the nerf bat. I heard stories of a single archon being on about the same level of fight-i-ness as a tyranid bio titan in one game (think it was 5th) and would've won if it could've gone first.
In 7th the huskblade got nerfed a bit but the shadow field got boosted i think. Even if you failed a shadowfield save it'd last for the rest of the phase which when you had 4 archons all together in one unit you could have one take all the shots from a gun-line and as soon as that phase is over and the shadow field dies you just have another archon switch places to take the shooting in the next enemy shooting phase. I legit had a guard player cursing at how unkillable that archon party posse was. Then you get into melee with the huskblades and bring down monsters with weight of attacks and Instant Death with any successful hit and you can take a blast pistol for anti-tank power.
Seriously aside from small units of reavers with cluster caltrop and Covens armies the archon party posse was an amazing unit and i'm happy to say i figured out that trick with the 4 archons all on my own. It partly happened because i faced a bunch of imperial fist (i think that was the chapter) bikers with a 2+ FNP in one game. I just wanted something to handle those stupid units and cut through FNP.
-------
The only things we got since 5th edition was most of our characters were put on the chopping block and they finally released the void raven. The re-released models that didn't need it too bad (most of the eldar specials are still finecast and they got wraith knights and flyers) and the ossefactor in the wrack unit which in 8th is garbage.
Amishprn86 wrote: Dark Weapons lost their special rule, if they had (+1 to wound vehicle) or (-1 to Invul saves vs vehicles) they would be perfect.
Ugh and don't get me started on heat lances. They used to topple tanks and other stuff. Str 6 and lack of getting into half range just killed it for them.
Its a great book. It plays fast, hard hitting and fragile. (Except for covens which are tough, hard hitting and fast)
And there are options. A hand full or a double handful of real choices of how to play our lists. And I am quite happy we have few fake choices and our trap choices are obvious (or at least were obvious to me.)
But we don't have much customization. Once we know which unit we are building we only have one HQ we can take. They have Zero options. Electro corrosive whip is the best Heamy weapon hands down. The Archon takes a Husk blade. You could give your succubus a shardnet and impailer, but thats dumb. There is no way to make anyone distinctively tougher or faster or stronger, you get what you get.
Same with the units. Our weapons choose themselves. Take as many blasters as you can, unless you are taking as many shreaders as you can. Stay away from heat lances. Stay away from liquifiers. Put what ever you want on the Talos, it's not going to do much with shooting anyway. You can go round and round on what weapon to put on your scourge, but its only going to get one shot so it doesn't matter. Or maybe it does that might be one of our real choices.
The units we have are doing their job. We are a top codex even mono dex against all comers we are competitive. And its a fun army to play.
Hello fellow Archons,
A few weeks from now I'll be facing AdMech in a 2k game using one of the Vigilus Defiant missions (not sure which yet). Up until now I have never faced AdMech, so I only have a vague idea of wha I'm up against. I know little of what is in his collection (beyond plenty of Skitarii, Electro-Priests, walkers, Onagers, a Knight...the usual suspects. I have no idea what Forge World he runs, but given I suspect Mars given that he has Cawl.
Any suggestions on how to beat AdMech? I'm debating running Kabal + Wyches, Kabal + Coven or a combination of all three. Also, what should my.target priority be? I'm thinking Icarus Onagers, then Knight, then Robots?
Lord of Nonsensical Crap wrote: Hello fellow Archons,
A few weeks from now I'll be facing AdMech in a 2k game using one of the Vigilus Defiant missions (not sure which yet). Up until now I have never faced AdMech, so I only have a vague idea of wha I'm up against. I know little of what is in his collection (beyond plenty of Skitarii, Electro-Priests, walkers, Onagers, a Knight...the usual suspects. I have no idea what Forge World he runs, but given I suspect Mars given that he has Cawl.
Any suggestions on how to beat AdMech? I'm debating running Kabal + Wyches, Kabal + Coven or a combination of all three. Also, what should my.target priority be? I'm thinking Icarus Onagers, then Knight, then Robots?
Admech is my main army and the best way to shut me down is to get into close combat with the heavy shooters. Dunecrawlers are usually the last units alive in my games and i feel they are what gives the most consistent damage output. You HAVE to one-shot them otherwise they can act as if they were full health for 1 CP.
If theyre bringing a vigilus detachment they are probably running the servitor maniple which is the better one. If they do bring Kataphron destroyers be careful. They can dish out a ton of damage. They are fairly squishy but if he brings regular servitors, he can sacrifice one to reanimate a kataphron.
Admech brings many threats to the table, and usually losing one isnt that crippling. Try getting some wyches/reavers/grotesques locked in combat with kataphrons/dunecrawlers/kastellans. Wyches are particularly good against kataphrons since they are infantry.
Lord of Nonsensical Crap wrote: Hello fellow Archons,
A few weeks from now I'll be facing AdMech in a 2k game using one of the Vigilus Defiant missions (not sure which yet). Up until now I have never faced AdMech, so I only have a vague idea of wha I'm up against. I know little of what is in his collection (beyond plenty of Skitarii, Electro-Priests, walkers, Onagers, a Knight...the usual suspects. I have no idea what Forge World he runs, but given I suspect Mars given that he has Cawl.
Any suggestions on how to beat AdMech? I'm debating running Kabal + Wyches, Kabal + Coven or a combination of all three. Also, what should my.target priority be? I'm thinking Icarus Onagers, then Knight, then Robots?
Admech is my main army and the best way to shut me down is to get into close combat with the heavy shooters. Dunecrawlers are usually the last units alive in my games and i feel they are what gives the most consistent damage output. You HAVE to one-shot them otherwise they can act as if they were full health for 1 CP.
If theyre bringing a vigilus detachment they are probably running the servitor maniple which is the better one. If they do bring Kataphron destroyers be careful. They can dish out a ton of damage. They are fairly squishy but if he brings regular servitors, he can sacrifice one to reanimate a kataphron.
Admech brings many threats to the table, and usually losing one isnt that crippling. Try getting some wyches/reavers/grotesques locked in combat with kataphrons/dunecrawlers/kastellans. Wyches are particularly good against kataphrons since they are infantry.
That sounds easier said than done, given that he's likely going to be screening his shooters with a line of Skitarii. Still, I see your point. A fast Wych contingent might be key here.
Jancoran wrote:Kastellan robot shooting is horrifyingly effective. Fear it. Outrange it or hug it, but DO NOT get caught in the open against it.
Yeah I am legimitately scared of those Kastelans. The problem I'm seeing with them and AdMech walkers is that they are generally loaded up on invul saves, which means that taking them out will be tricky even with massed lance fire.
I'll try to post a possible list for taking them on later. For now, any other ideas will be welcome.
That sounds easier said than done, given that he's likely going to be screening his shooters with a line of Skitarii. Still, I see your point. A fast Wych contingent might be key here.
skitariis die pretty quickly to massed fire (which you shouldnt have a problem with all your splinter weapon). Also, bringing reavers to charge over the screen might be a good idea, they are also decent at eating overwatch. Wyches will be hard to play, especially against kastellans since they dont get a save (AP -2) against them.
Yeah I am legimitately scared of those Kastelans. The problem I'm seeing with them and AdMech walkers is that they are generally loaded up on invul saves, which means that taking them out will be tricky even with massed lance fire.
I'll try to post a possible list for taking them on later. For now, any other ideas will be welcome.
Kastellans invuln only works in shooting. if they lock them down to double shoot, their invuln becomes a 5++ and they cant fall back out of combat.
mobility is key against them. If youre playing objectives, try placing them so that they are holdable from inside ruins so you can hide from their shooting.
you should use Vect on wrath of mars on the kastellan, thats pretty much the only stratagem that is worth countering.
Also on the subject of Admech, allying in Jain Zar (dep Strike her) and a unit of Banshees using the Psyker Power that CATAPULTS THEM across the table round one can be great for locking down the shooting. Both are ideal for the task.
Jancoran wrote: Also on the subject of Admech, allying in Jain Zar (dep Strike her) and a unit of Banshees using the Stratagem thAT CATAPULTS THEM across the table round one can be great for locking down the shooting. Both are ideal for the task.
Jancoran wrote: Also on the subject of Admech, allying in Jain Zar (dep Strike her) and a unit of Banshees using the Stratagem thAT CATAPULTS THEM across the table round one can be great for locking down the shooting. Both are ideal for the task.
Explain good sir....
She's got serious melee ability and can steal the enemies'. She can be dropped in via the Deep Strike Stratagem, and then charge in turn two (remember that she cannot get her +3" thing when she deepstrikes), after the Banshees have already charged in turn one (Using the Warlock Quicken Psychic Power). So its kind of two rounds of wrapping up important shooting units while you advance. And as someone mentioned there IS a stratagem called Court of the Young King, but it only works on Biel-Tan aspect units that contain an Exarch. That adds 2" to a charge. You'd have to be Biel-Tan for that to work, but it wouldn't work on Jain Zar. She doesn't have an "exarch in her unit". BUT you could use it on the Banshees if you make them Biel-Tan.
Like i said: you must not get caught in the open. You need to hug Admech or you need to outrange and out maneuver them. But nothing in the middle. they have a ton o firepower even in their smallest Skittari units, much like Militarum Tempestus. they sting pretty good.
Total: 2005
Command Points: 14 (-3 for Alliance of Agony and Prizes of the Dark City)
Thoughts:
-I'm debating between taking the Mandrakes (for anti-infantry firepower/melee power) or a 3rd Ravager with disintegrators. I'm torn on disintegrators vs dark lances in general.
-As an alternative, I'm considering an extra 3 Reavers in the unit so that they can multicharge-pile into more stuff, and survive shooting on the way in more.
-I have NO idea where to put the Archons, given that all of my transports are out of room. I'm contemplating walking them with the Taloi behind my skimmers, but I don't want my units outrunning their reroll bubbles.
-For the Haemie, I'm debating on Master Artisan (to make my Taloi harder) or Diabolic Soothsayer (for the extra CPS)
Well using my same list as i did against tau i fought against a Craftworld Eldar list with 4 hemlocks (the psyker jets), 2 wave serpeants, 10 wraith guard (2 units of 5) and some infantry and managed to kill almost all of it by the end of the game except maybe 3 wraithguard and a wounded hemlock. It was maelstrom and i ended with almost twice as many points as him. I think even if it was a kill points game i would still probably have been ahead. I didn't really count the kill points we each had as it was maelstrom.
This is maximising on getting as many poison shots/hits as possible. The only thing is I have next to no anti-tank, but other than Drukhari, who else has access to cheap armour? Would this list benefit from having mobility or should I go for more bodies?
The list seems good for 500 points, but I feel like the 20 points spent on Splinter Racks would be better used getting a 10th warrior and/or a couple more shredders for the unit. I assume the Archon goes with the court in the Venom?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also feel like this list might be better as Obsidian Rose. Extra range for shredders + 15” rapid fire on all your splinter weapons would let you get in range to maximize your firepower without making the follow-up charge pretty much automatic.
Another option: drop the splinter racks and give your archon a blaster, then upgrade the Venom Blade to a proper huskblade. The blaster option is index only, so I don’t know if folks in your area think that’s kosher, but it is a great option in ObRose. You can give your warlord the the Hatred Eternal WL trait (reroll failed wounds) and the Armor of Misery to create a pretty nasty Archon. That gives you a single blaster shot that hits on a 2+, reroll 1s, at 24” range, and can then reroll failed wounds. And the Armor is great for tanking all the bolter and lasgun shots you don’t want to waste your shadowfield save on. So that would give you a much tougher, nastier WL who can also provide your army with a single, but very reliable, anti tank shot every turn.
I was considering obsidian rose but I figure a 500pt match won't have too much armour and I have disintegrators and even shredders that can handle some light armour.
The exploding 6's with the racks and re-roll to 1's For poison means I should be getting near the higher end of successful shots in. The relic pistol is also 18' which I didny realise.
I've 4CP and I can use that for potentially redeploying my three transports or using screaming jets or potentially deepstrike the Archon.
I'm going for mobility and mass firepower. I'm amazed at how cheap our transports are. I know there will be guard, GSC, potential Tau and blood angels
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: Probably a silly question but has anyone ever had success using Kabalites in melee?
Not in 8E. when initiative mattered it might have been more likely but...
I've had the opposite of success. Charged something to tie it up and prevent shooting, then was stuck in a pointless slap fight for the rest of the game. Sure it tied the rough riders up for the rest of the game, but who cares, and I needed that blaster shooting.
I'm thinking about replacing the 2 void ravens and 10 grotesques (with haemonculus covens) in my list with 2 units of 12 reavers with blasters and maybe grav talons (24 reavers). If i have to i will take the basic wyches and 2 succubus so both reaver squads have toughness 5. It could be alright i suppose. Since my anti-tank should be decent at that point i'll probably use dissie ravagers as well. I guess i'll just have to see when i have the money to buy about 9 more reavers.
flamingkillamajig wrote: I'm thinking about replacing the 2 void ravens and 10 grotesques (with haemonculus covens) in my list with 2 units of 12 reavers with blasters and maybe grav talons (24 reavers). If i have to i will take the basic wyches and 2 succubus so both reaver squads have toughness 5. It could be alright i suppose. Since my anti-tank should be decent at that point i'll probably use dissie ravagers as well. I guess i'll just have to see when i have the money to buy about 9 more reavers.
Aeesome! Hell yeah. I want to see that fight. You will deffinatly miss t5&6 with a 4 up invul. Not to mention the actual damage out put the covens can do. But hitting with 24 Dark Elf Screarmers turn 1will be awesome.
Whats the rest of the list? You need some kind of a follow up.
I use Grotesques and Talos. I think you could use Harliquins, or Wraith blades. Dark elf HQs can work to an extent. If they are kitted out with relics and warlord traits. Bright lsnces? The Avatar?
You need a follow up. Hellions would be cool, the have the strenth and damage, but I don't think they have much AP.
Question: Is 10-man groteques worth it in an otherwise shooty kabals (ie, 3 dissy, 3 reapers, etc..)??
I plan on playing in tournaments soon and the IK seems to be king these days. I figured a prophet of flesh groteques would keep the heat off of the kabal units.
Would that be a viable tactic?
I'd have to convert for Groteques though. I can get my hands on cheap Ogre Reaper models and I was thinking of sniping their heads off and using the raider's shock prow as the head, with some talo bits for one of the arms. (kinda like Silent Hill's Pyramid Head).
What do you recommend to deliver the Groteques? Running up the table starting turn 1? Or, would deep striking be better?
Deep striking seems iffy as, the shooty kabal units would be the only target in turn one.
Fairly new to 40K, built a chaos team and played a few times and really enjoy it! I will only be playing friendly games so I play what I think looks cool and will play well.
I love the idea of Drukhari and flyers. I have looked around but havent seen a list flyer heavy. Is this a possibility and will it have a chance to be decently competitive?
Im willing to invest the money and time but as we all know it can be expensive to just randomly buy pieces especially for us newbies to the war.
Dark Eldar (that`s they were called some time ago) do have some of the best looking (IMO) model ranges, so I bought an army worth of the models, painted them to the highest standard I could achive and was proud of them.
I haven`t played in a while, but it seems all the units I collected got neferd pretty hard - that or maybe I forgot how to play.
This is what I currently own:
Heperax
9 Wytches
Raider with Desintegrator
Succubus
9 Wytches
Raider with Desintegrator
3 Incubi
Venom with dual Splinter Cannon
10 Mandrakes
1 Razorwing
1 Voidraven
12 Reavers (2 Heat Lances, 2 Blaster)
15 Scourges (4x Haywire)
15 Hellions
I don`t need to win tournaments, but I want to be able to put up a fight in a friendly game.
How can I use as many models that I already own, and what should I buy with the next $100-200 of my hobby budget?
Chewie wrote: Question: Is 10-man groteques worth it in an otherwise shooty kabals (ie, 3 dissy, 3 reapers, etc..)??
I plan on playing in tournaments soon and the IK seems to be king these days. I figured a prophet of flesh groteques would keep the heat off of the kabal units.
Would that be a viable tactic?
I'd have to convert for Groteques though. I can get my hands on cheap Ogre Reaper models and I was thinking of sniping their heads off and using the raider's shock prow as the head, with some talo bits for one of the arms. (kinda like Silent Hill's Pyramid Head).
What do you recommend to deliver the Groteques? Running up the table starting turn 1? Or, would deep striking be better?
Deep striking seems iffy as, the shooty kabal units would be the only target in turn one.
RacerX10 wrote: Fairly new to 40K, built a chaos team and played a few times and really enjoy it! I will only be playing friendly games so I play what I think looks cool and will play well.
I love the idea of Drukhari and flyers. I have looked around but havent seen a list flyer heavy. Is this a possibility and will it have a chance to be decently competitive?
Im willing to invest the money and time but as we all know it can be expensive to just randomly buy pieces especially for us newbies to the war.
any suggestions/thoughts greatly appreciated
A flyer Airwing of 3 competitive. You dont see it always due to different metas, some of the metas are anti-flyer b.c so many players were playing flyers, like Deredeo's and Smash Captains coming back due to fly changes. But as for TAC they are great.
Dark Eldar (that`s they were called some time ago) do have some of the best looking (IMO) model ranges, so I bought an army worth of the models, painted them to the highest standard I could achive and was proud of them.
I haven`t played in a while, but it seems all the units I collected got neferd pretty hard - that or maybe I forgot how to play.
This is what I currently own:
Heperax
9 Wytches
Raider with Desintegrator
Succubus
9 Wytches
Raider with Desintegrator
3 Incubi
Venom with dual Splinter Cannon
10 Mandrakes
1 Razorwing
1 Voidraven
12 Reavers (2 Heat Lances, 2 Blaster)
15 Scourges (4x Haywire)
15 Hellions
I don`t need to win tournaments, but I want to be able to put up a fight in a friendly game.
How can I use as many models that I already own, and what should I buy with the next $100-200 of my hobby budget?
For a friendly game your army looks fine, but as to what to buy next? For sure some Ravagers, if i were to take out a couple units of your list? It would be the Incubi, they are one of the weaker units in our army, hellions are close, but they can actually work well if they are not shot at turn 1. Your list however only has 1 large looking threat, and its the Hellions, given they are glass cannons expect them to die a lot. Incubi are just Power sword armies for the most part, 3+ armor isnt good anymore, you either want Invuls or triple the bodies. So many things has AP -1/-3 and 2D-3D.
With that said, for friendly games you should play this list 3-4 times to learn the units and then change what you want, its ok to keep a unit of Incubi, they are cheap enough that they still can function. But i for sure would be more firepower via Ravagers.
A little bit about Hellions, they are 1 hit wonders, they will do really well for 1 turn then most likely die, so expect that to happen, with enough poison shots to kill a small screen and to fly over units and charge, sure No AP, but with 30+ attacks they are great at killing chaff, especially if they had FnP.
Has any of you tried using a max sized kabalite blob in an Obsidian rose detachment to use the failure is not an option stratagem?
i was thinking about putting them in a webway strike to protect them T1 then drop them on an objective that is pretty far from the main battle and using the extra range from the Obsidian rose to lay down serious firepower
VladimirHerzog wrote: Has any of you tried using a max sized kabalite blob in an Obsidian rose detachment to use the failure is not an option stratagem?
i was thinking about putting them in a webway strike to protect them T1 then drop them on an objective that is pretty far from the main battle and using the extra range from the Obsidian rose to lay down serious firepower
My only problem doing that turn 2 is no Moral protection, make it BH and drop them turn 3 means you dont need to spend more CP, but you get less poison shots if you are out of Rapid fire range and taking Shredders, you could just go 20 dudes no upgrades and fire 20 shots at 24".
I like doing that with Guardians, 20 guardians is 160pts without upgrades, but they just do it much better sadly. B.c Kabals are cheap, you could get away with it to save points, they wont deal damage like the Guardians do tho.
VladimirHerzog wrote: Has any of you tried using a max sized kabalite blob in an Obsidian rose detachment to use the failure is not an option stratagem?
i was thinking about putting them in a webway strike to protect them T1 then drop them on an objective that is pretty far from the main battle and using the extra range from the Obsidian rose to lay down serious firepower
My only problem doing that turn 2 is no Moral protection, make it BH and drop them turn 3 means you dont need to spend more CP, but you get less poison shots if you are out of Rapid fire range and taking Shredders, you could just go 20 dudes no upgrades and fire 20 shots at 24".
I like doing that with Guardians, 20 guardians is 160pts without upgrades, but they just do it much better sadly. B.c Kabals are cheap, you could get away with it to save points, they wont deal damage like the Guardians do tho.
But, you should try it out, you might like it.
my idea was to use "failure is not an option" to turn my failed morale test into a "free" shooting phase
VladimirHerzog wrote: Has any of you tried using a max sized kabalite blob in an Obsidian rose detachment to use the failure is not an option stratagem?
i was thinking about putting them in a webway strike to protect them T1 then drop them on an objective that is pretty far from the main battle and using the extra range from the Obsidian rose to lay down serious firepower
My only problem doing that turn 2 is no Moral protection, make it BH and drop them turn 3 means you dont need to spend more CP, but you get less poison shots if you are out of Rapid fire range and taking Shredders, you could just go 20 dudes no upgrades and fire 20 shots at 24".
I like doing that with Guardians, 20 guardians is 160pts without upgrades, but they just do it much better sadly. B.c Kabals are cheap, you could get away with it to save points, they wont deal damage like the Guardians do tho.
But, you should try it out, you might like it.
my idea was to use "failure is not an option" to turn my failed morale test into a "free" shooting phase
I kinda like it but at the same time you can only do that to one unit and warriors would die so fast at that range he might just wipe you out before you get to fire anything worthwhile off. Don't get me wrong i also want to DS in with 2 max squads of warriors and special and heavy weapons but i also am wondering if i can't do the special or heavy weapons job better from range in a vehicle or something. In the case of the 2 units of 12 reavers (24 total) with blasters it would cost a lot but i will take a few min. squad wych squads and 2 succubus to get a battalion out of them.
I think you have an ok strategy and it's actually fairly cheap considering. The issue is outside of Covens and maybe bikes not much we have is really that durable. Even venoms go down to a couple lucky pot shots -1 to hit and 5+ inv. save or no. The other issue with this tactic is you're waiting till turn 2 for some firepower so you might want to not dedicate all of your anti-tank or anti-infantry to this one group. It should be cheap but effective for its cost but it'll still die in a turn.
Honestly i think if i did the spam 2 units of 20 warriors (40 warriors) i'd probably take dark lances as well as blaster spam or anything really. Flayed Skull doesn't help these huge squads (since it's flying or hovering units only), obsidian rose may be ok, Poisoned tongue sounds pretty good (spammed poison) and Black Heart wouldn't really help enough in this case (turn 3 PFP is 2+ to hit in melee if i recall).
Personally i'm more curious about the spammed warrior squads in 10's or 20's in our deployment zone (killing a ton of hordes at long range may be hard for some armies) but i think a couple venoms with warriors would be nice for objective games in the case of objective secured.
I kinda like it but at the same time you can only do that to one unit and warriors would die so fast at that range he might just wipe you out before you get to fire anything worthwhile off.
That's certainly possible but even in a worst-case scenario a single maxed-out warrior squad isn't a huge loss of resources. And if you deep-struck them then you'll have had at least one shooting phase with them.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Don't get me wrong i also want to DS in with 2 max squads of warriors and special and heavy weapons but i also am wondering if i can't do the special or heavy weapons job better from range in a vehicle or something.
This might just be me but I don't think I'd want to use more than one of these squads. Firstly because the morale-protection Stratagem can only affect one of them per turn, and secondly because deep striking 2 squads is much more expensive in terms of CPs.
As for weapons, I think taking 4 Blasters is reasonable - especially as Obsidian Rose. It means your opponent will have to dig his way through 16 Warriors before he can kill any of them. I wouldn't bother with Dark Lances, though. They're expensive and discourage the squad from moving.
Honestly i think if i did the spam 2 units of 20 warriors (40 warriors) i'd probably take dark lances as well as blaster spam or anything really. Flayed Skull doesn't help these huge squads (since it's flying or hovering units only), obsidian rose may be ok, Poisoned tongue sounds pretty good (spammed poison) and Black Heart wouldn't really help enough in this case (turn 3 PFP is 2+ to hit in melee if i recall).
I think the key with Ynnari is the moral-immunity Stratagem (which makes units of 20 a lot less risky). If I was using Poison Tongue or BH, I definitely wouldn't want to go above 10-man squads.
Personally i'm more curious about the spammed warrior squads in 10's or 20's in our deployment zone (killing a ton of hordes at long range may be hard for some armies) but i think a couple venoms with warriors would be nice for objective games in the case of objective secured.
See, if I really wanted to spam Warriors in my deployment zone, I'd actually go with Ynnari of all things. Put Yvraine in the middle of them and have her cast shield of Ynnead every turn - suddenly your 6pt models have a 5++/6+++.
Kabalite Warriors [8 PL, 228pts] . 13x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with heavy weapon (up to 1 for 10 models): Dark Lance
. Kabalite Warrior with heavy weapon (up to 1 for 10 models): Dark Lance
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 47pts] . 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 47pts] . 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 47pts] . 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle
Scourges [5 PL, 92pts] . Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Haywire blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Haywire blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Haywire blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Haywire blaster
. Solarite: Shardcarbine
Scourges [5 PL, 92pts] . Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Haywire blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Haywire blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Haywire blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Haywire blaster
. Solarite: Shardcarbine
the goal is to use reavers as a distraction on turn 1, then have a big T2 deepstrike with the warriors, scourge and mandrakes.
I dont know what my opponent's going to play. i gave my succubus the blood glaive as my main relic and i'll either pick the djinn blade or the helm of spite for my archon, depending on if im against a psyker centric army
also, the warriors wont be deepstriking at the 9" mark, i'll use the extra 6" range on their weapons to deepstrike into a position that keeps them far away with decent line of sight.
i'm also ready to use "Hunt from the shadows" and "Lightning fast reflexes" on my warrior blob to keep them alive (if needed)
Alright so i tried my kabalite bomb (?) yesterday.
was up against slaanesh demons / emperor's children (hoorah for the fluffy battle!!).
Spoiler:
his list was something like this :
Chaos demons - Slaanesh
Demon prince
Herald on chariot
20x daemonnetes (deepstrike)
noise marines x2
possesed
2x rhinos
1 land raider
i deploy my kabal in the backfield, planning on using my longer range to put distance between him and the charge. My ravagers are hidden behind a tall ruin.
i put my reavers up front with a venom filled with wyches and a succubus behind them, planning on using them to tie up a rhino and try and make him unable to disembark while i smack it down.
i have my mandrakes, my scourge and my kabalite blob in reserve.
he deploys his 2 rhinos aggressively and hides his land raider behind some ruins.
He seizes the initiative.
His T1 : he moves up the rhinos and pops smoke, his demon prince and herald move forward, he moves his land raider out of the ruins and shoots at 2 of my venoms, unable to kill them.
My T1 : my wych cult move up to the closest rhino (this was a mistake, i should have gone for the land raider to tie it up in combat). my kabal venoms stay in the backfield, making sure my blasters are in range of his vehicles. i pop the nose of my ravagers out so they have line of sight on the map.
i quickly blow up his first rhino with blasters and i clear its contents with poison weapons, only 1 noise marine survives the shooting phase. The land raider takes some blaster hits but the damage rolls are low. the last noise marine kills himself in the overwatch by supercharging his plasma pistol.
his T2 : his possesed and demon prince make it to my reavers and quickly dipatch of them, the lascannon on the landraider oneshots one of my ravagers. he disembarks some plasma space marines from the second rhino and blows up my wych cult venom.
my T2 : i send my wyches and succubus away from the possesed/demon prince ball and towards the plasma marines and the rhino accompanying them. i drop my mandrakes clsoe to the plasma marines, along with 5 of my scourges, the other 5 drop in range to shoot the land raider and my kabalite blob drops in some ruins in my opponent's deployment zone. the land raider survives shooting from 2 dark lance, 4 blasters and 4 haywire blaster (sadness). My venoms drop some plasma marine and my other scourge pop the final rhino. i fail my charge with my mandrakes, my succubus and wyches make the charge.
his t3 : he gets assassinate and secure objective 2, which happens to be an objective with one of my archon and a venom on it, he sends his demon prince, herald, possesed and his 20-daemonette blob at them, everything dies except for my archon, that gets super lucky shadowfield rolls against his DP.
my T3 : most of his army is locked in combat and wrapping my archon so i cant shoot at them. i wipe everything except for that blob and i start to spread my units over the map to get Domination. my archon does not survive the fight phase.
his t4 : he tries getting at my warlord but fails the charge, ends up only killing a few of my mandrakes, the rest wipe his possesed in combat.
my T4: i finally kill his DP with my ravager, i manage to make his daemonettes die to morale.
his t5 : hes got only his herald left, so he tries killing my warlord for some points, he fails.
my t5 : he concedes
The game went pretty well, i made some mistakes in it but thats how i learn best. i shouldve charged the land raider with my reavers to deny him one turn of shooting, i shouldve put all my scourges against the land raider since it was more dangerous than an empty rhino and my first archon shouldve been more protected.
the kabalite blob (which was the point of that game) did pretty well overall. being against a mostly melee army is affecting my judgement however, he never shot at them in their 3 turns of activity so i couldnt make use of the "failure is not an option" stratagem.
the map control i got from having 4 deepstriking units was pretty impressive.
I'd say that mandrakes are probably the next unit i'd like to test since they lasted a loong time in combat before finally dying.
was up against slaanesh demons / emperor's children (hoorah for the fluffy battle!!).
Spoiler:
his list was something like this :
Chaos demons - Slaanesh
Demon prince
Herald on chariot
20x daemonnetes (deepstrike)
noise marines x2
possesed
2x rhinos
1 land raider
i deploy my kabal in the backfield, planning on using my longer range to put distance between him and the charge. My ravagers are hidden behind a tall ruin.
i put my reavers up front with a venom filled with wyches and a succubus behind them, planning on using them to tie up a rhino and try and make him unable to disembark while i smack it down.
i have my mandrakes, my scourge and my kabalite blob in reserve.
he deploys his 2 rhinos aggressively and hides his land raider behind some ruins.
He seizes the initiative.
His T1 : he moves up the rhinos and pops smoke, his demon prince and herald move forward, he moves his land raider out of the ruins and shoots at 2 of my venoms, unable to kill them.
My T1 : my wych cult move up to the closest rhino (this was a mistake, i should have gone for the land raider to tie it up in combat). my kabal venoms stay in the backfield, making sure my blasters are in range of his vehicles. i pop the nose of my ravagers out so they have line of sight on the map.
i quickly blow up his first rhino with blasters and i clear its contents with poison weapons, only 1 noise marine survives the shooting phase. The land raider takes some blaster hits but the damage rolls are low. the last noise marine kills himself in the overwatch by supercharging his plasma pistol.
his T2 : his possesed and demon prince make it to my reavers and quickly dipatch of them, the lascannon on the landraider oneshots one of my ravagers. he disembarks some plasma space marines from the second rhino and blows up my wych cult venom.
my T2 : i send my wyches and succubus away from the possesed/demon prince ball and towards the plasma marines and the rhino accompanying them. i drop my mandrakes clsoe to the plasma marines, along with 5 of my scourges, the other 5 drop in range to shoot the land raider and my kabalite blob drops in some ruins in my opponent's deployment zone. the land raider survives shooting from 2 dark lance, 4 blasters and 4 haywire blaster (sadness). My venoms drop some plasma marine and my other scourge pop the final rhino. i fail my charge with my mandrakes, my succubus and wyches make the charge.
his t3 : he gets assassinate and secure objective 2, which happens to be an objective with one of my archon and a venom on it, he sends his demon prince, herald, possesed and his 20-daemonette blob at them, everything dies except for my archon, that gets super lucky shadowfield rolls against his DP.
my T3 : most of his army is locked in combat and wrapping my archon so i cant shoot at them. i wipe everything except for that blob and i start to spread my units over the map to get Domination. my archon does not survive the fight phase.
his t4 : he tries getting at my warlord but fails the charge, ends up only killing a few of my mandrakes, the rest wipe his possesed in combat.
my T4: i finally kill his DP with my ravager, i manage to make his daemonettes die to morale.
his t5 : hes got only his herald left, so he tries killing my warlord for some points, he fails.
my t5 : he concedes
The game went pretty well, i made some mistakes in it but thats how i learn best. i shouldve charged the land raider with my reavers to deny him one turn of shooting, i shouldve put all my scourges against the land raider since it was more dangerous than an empty rhino and my first archon shouldve been more protected.
the kabalite blob (which was the point of that game) did pretty well overall. being against a mostly melee army is affecting my judgement however, he never shot at them in their 3 turns of activity so i couldnt make use of the "failure is not an option" stratagem.
the map control i got from having 4 deepstriking units was pretty impressive.
I'd say that mandrakes are probably the next unit i'd like to test since they lasted a loong time in combat before finally dying.
Mandrakes are very cool models. i own the old ones which aren't but i have to say: Mandrake models look great out there. I also happen to think they are pretty potent at their job and are kinda necessary in ITC missions where such a unit can really shine to grab you a couple points on the cheap.
Mandrakes are very cool models. i own the old ones which aren't but i have to say: Mandrake models look great out there. I also happen to think they are pretty potent at their job and are kinda necessary in ITC missions where such a unit can really shine to grab you a couple points on the cheap.
Mandrakes are among my favourite models in the DE range. The only thing I find sad is that there's only 3 of them and they're just 1-wound Elites. I'd really like to see them get an HQ choice or something like that.
As it stands, I've converted a few Mandrakes into HQs but it's not really the same.
Anyway, that aside, I think the current rules are the best they've ever had. Kinda wish I could take them as Ynnari.
was up against slaanesh demons / emperor's children (hoorah for the fluffy battle!!).
his list was something like this :
Chaos demons - Slaanesh
Demon prince
Herald on chariot
20x daemonnetes (deepstrike)
noise marines x2
possesed
2x rhinos
1 land raider
i deploy my kabal in the backfield, planning on using my longer range to put distance between him and the charge. My ravagers are hidden behind a tall ruin.
i put my reavers up front with a venom filled with wyches and a succubus behind them, planning on using them to tie up a rhino and try and make him unable to disembark while i smack it down.
i have my mandrakes, my scourge and my kabalite blob in reserve.
he deploys his 2 rhinos aggressively and hides his land raider behind some ruins.
He seizes the initiative.
His T1 : he moves up the rhinos and pops smoke, his demon prince and herald move forward, he moves his land raider out of the ruins and shoots at 2 of my venoms, unable to kill them.
My T1 : my wych cult move up to the closest rhino (this was a mistake, i should have gone for the land raider to tie it up in combat). my kabal venoms stay in the backfield, making sure my blasters are in range of his vehicles. i pop the nose of my ravagers out so they have line of sight on the map.
i quickly blow up his first rhino with blasters and i clear its contents with poison weapons, only 1 noise marine survives the shooting phase. The land raider takes some blaster hits but the damage rolls are low. the last noise marine kills himself in the overwatch by supercharging his plasma pistol.
his T2 : his possesed and demon prince make it to my reavers and quickly dipatch of them, the lascannon on the landraider oneshots one of my ravagers. he disembarks some plasma space marines from the second rhino and blows up my wych cult venom.
my T2 : i send my wyches and succubus away from the possesed/demon prince ball and towards the plasma marines and the rhino accompanying them. i drop my mandrakes clsoe to the plasma marines, along with 5 of my scourges, the other 5 drop in range to shoot the land raider and my kabalite blob drops in some ruins in my opponent's deployment zone. the land raider survives shooting from 2 dark lance, 4 blasters and 4 haywire blaster (sadness). My venoms drop some plasma marine and my other scourge pop the final rhino. i fail my charge with my mandrakes, my succubus and wyches make the charge.
his t3 : he gets assassinate and secure objective 2, which happens to be an objective with one of my archon and a venom on it, he sends his demon prince, herald, possesed and his 20-daemonette blob at them, everything dies except for my archon, that gets super lucky shadowfield rolls against his DP.
my T3 : most of his army is locked in combat and wrapping my archon so i cant shoot at them. i wipe everything except for that blob and i start to spread my units over the map to get Domination. my archon does not survive the fight phase.
his t4 : he tries getting at my warlord but fails the charge, ends up only killing a few of my mandrakes, the rest wipe his possesed in combat.
my T4: i finally kill his DP with my ravager, i manage to make his daemonettes die to morale.
his t5 : hes got only his herald left, so he tries killing my warlord for some points, he fails.
my t5 : he concedes
The game went pretty well, i made some mistakes in it but thats how i learn best. i shouldve charged the land raider with my reavers to deny him one turn of shooting, i shouldve put all my scourges against the land raider since it was more dangerous than an empty rhino and my first archon shouldve been more protected.
the kabalite blob (which was the point of that game) did pretty well overall. being against a mostly melee army is affecting my judgement however, he never shot at them in their 3 turns of activity so i couldnt make use of the "failure is not an option" stratagem.
the map control i got from having 4 deepstriking units was pretty impressive.
I'd say that mandrakes are probably the next unit i'd like to test since they lasted a loong time in combat before finally dying.
I'm not shocked you didn't get to use the 'failure is not an option' stratagem. Honestly i think they'd die too quickly to be able to use it most of the time anyway.
I hope i don't come off as mean but i saw your list and i'm not too thrilled about it. You have some good objective holders and the reavers would be helpful if you had a few more but i'm just not feeling it. Scourge also die too quickly in general so that's one turn of shooting unless you can somehow get the enemy to not focus them down pretty easy which considering their range and numbers is really hard when you're in range of their short range stuff. Also you didn't give your archons blasters which is not good. The ravagers though are good. The huge warrior squad is nice through DS but will need support. Just 5 mandrakes doesn't sound great either unless you figured out something i'm missing.
I'm ofc not the best player so you should ask Amishprn for advice or one of the other veterans.
Lol sorry i forgot that you said it was a friendly game. Nm then carry on! It's not like you used a Soup list.
was up against slaanesh demons / emperor's children (hoorah for the fluffy battle!!).
his list was something like this :
Chaos demons - Slaanesh
Demon prince
Herald on chariot
20x daemonnetes (deepstrike)
noise marines x2
possesed
2x rhinos
1 land raider
i deploy my kabal in the backfield, planning on using my longer range to put distance between him and the charge. My ravagers are hidden behind a tall ruin.
i put my reavers up front with a venom filled with wyches and a succubus behind them, planning on using them to tie up a rhino and try and make him unable to disembark while i smack it down.
i have my mandrakes, my scourge and my kabalite blob in reserve.
he deploys his 2 rhinos aggressively and hides his land raider behind some ruins.
He seizes the initiative.
His T1 : he moves up the rhinos and pops smoke, his demon prince and herald move forward, he moves his land raider out of the ruins and shoots at 2 of my venoms, unable to kill them.
My T1 : my wych cult move up to the closest rhino (this was a mistake, i should have gone for the land raider to tie it up in combat). my kabal venoms stay in the backfield, making sure my blasters are in range of his vehicles. i pop the nose of my ravagers out so they have line of sight on the map.
i quickly blow up his first rhino with blasters and i clear its contents with poison weapons, only 1 noise marine survives the shooting phase. The land raider takes some blaster hits but the damage rolls are low. the last noise marine kills himself in the overwatch by supercharging his plasma pistol.
his T2 : his possesed and demon prince make it to my reavers and quickly dipatch of them, the lascannon on the landraider oneshots one of my ravagers. he disembarks some plasma space marines from the second rhino and blows up my wych cult venom.
my T2 : i send my wyches and succubus away from the possesed/demon prince ball and towards the plasma marines and the rhino accompanying them. i drop my mandrakes clsoe to the plasma marines, along with 5 of my scourges, the other 5 drop in range to shoot the land raider and my kabalite blob drops in some ruins in my opponent's deployment zone. the land raider survives shooting from 2 dark lance, 4 blasters and 4 haywire blaster (sadness). My venoms drop some plasma marine and my other scourge pop the final rhino. i fail my charge with my mandrakes, my succubus and wyches make the charge.
his t3 : he gets assassinate and secure objective 2, which happens to be an objective with one of my archon and a venom on it, he sends his demon prince, herald, possesed and his 20-daemonette blob at them, everything dies except for my archon, that gets super lucky shadowfield rolls against his DP.
my T3 : most of his army is locked in combat and wrapping my archon so i cant shoot at them. i wipe everything except for that blob and i start to spread my units over the map to get Domination. my archon does not survive the fight phase.
his t4 : he tries getting at my warlord but fails the charge, ends up only killing a few of my mandrakes, the rest wipe his possesed in combat.
my T4: i finally kill his DP with my ravager, i manage to make his daemonettes die to morale.
his t5 : hes got only his herald left, so he tries killing my warlord for some points, he fails.
my t5 : he concedes
The game went pretty well, i made some mistakes in it but thats how i learn best. i shouldve charged the land raider with my reavers to deny him one turn of shooting, i shouldve put all my scourges against the land raider since it was more dangerous than an empty rhino and my first archon shouldve been more protected.
the kabalite blob (which was the point of that game) did pretty well overall. being against a mostly melee army is affecting my judgement however, he never shot at them in their 3 turns of activity so i couldnt make use of the "failure is not an option" stratagem.
the map control i got from having 4 deepstriking units was pretty impressive.
I'd say that mandrakes are probably the next unit i'd like to test since they lasted a loong time in combat before finally dying.
I'm not shocked you didn't get to use the 'failure is not an option' stratagem. Honestly i think they'd die too quickly to be able to use it most of the time anyway.
I hope i don't come off as mean but i saw your list and i'm not too thrilled about it. You have some good objective holders and the reavers would be helpful if you had a few more but i'm just not feeling it. Scourge also die too quickly in general so that's one turn of shooting unless you can somehow get the enemy to not focus them down pretty easy which considering their range and numbers is really hard when you're in range of their short range stuff. Also you didn't give your archons blasters which is not good. The ravagers though are good. The huge warrior squad is nice through DS but will need support. Just 5 mandrakes doesn't sound great either unless you figured out something i'm missing.
I'm ofc not the best player so you should ask Amishprn for advice or one of the other veterans.
Lol sorry i forgot that you said it was a friendly game. Nm then carry on! It's not like you used a Soup list.
no worries ! im new to the army so i like trying out wacky combinations to get a feel for the strengths and limitations of each unit. in my opinion, friendly games are perfect for that.
Is taking a blaster on an archon still legal? i thought that you had to use the latest available document's rules (so no blast archon, bloodbrides and trueborn)?.
The reason i only used 5 mandrakes is that the army i bought only had 5, still, they held their own enough for my interest to be piqued, i will be purchasing/converting some pretty soon.
It was the second time i was trying out scourges and they dont impress me, sure they have insane potential against vehicles but from my rolling so far, they put 2-3 mortal wounds on their targets and then proceeded to die in shame.
Now i really want to try out grotesques since i've heard only good from them. Problem is their price + them being finecast turns me off of them. i also magnetized my taloi so i dont have many leftover parts (except for faceplates) so kitbashing them from the classic Ogors/crypt ghouls isnt as easy an option it could be.
Is taking a blaster on an archon still legal? i thought that you had to use the latest available document's rules (so no blast archon, bloodbrides and trueborn)?.
They are still legal. One of the 3 billion GWFAQs had a flowchart explaining it but I'm currently unable to find it.
I just bought 6 more reaver models (2 boxes) so now i have one box of 3 left to get and then i'll have all 24. Hopefully i can still tear off those heat lances and add blasters to them. The cluster caltrops being traded for grav talons isn't huge but i could do that too.
I'm telling you it's so weird how reavers are used now. Back in 7th we'd take em in 3's or 6's and perhaps do jump shoot jump (esp. with heat lances which were actually good anti-tank back then) and eat units alive with cluster caltrops. Another dark eldar player i know said in like 5th you'd just speed them across enemies and do damage that way. Currently in 8th ed codex you use them for bogging down the enemy's shooting, taking objectives and maybe if i'm lucky those blasters on toughness 5 units will actually be somewhat survivable.
One of the reasons i'm taking spammed reavers is if i can maybe bog down some bigger opponents in combat like stormsurge and knights because at the end of the day a reaver jetbike isn't infantry and can't just be walked over. Sadly riptides and some similar units can just fly over em and still shoot.
Is taking a blaster on an archon still legal? i thought that you had to use the latest available document's rules (so no blast archon, bloodbrides and trueborn)?.
They are still legal. One of the 3 billion GWFAQs had a flowchart explaining it but I'm currently unable to find it.
They are as legal as they have ever been. GW still allows this index flowchart, meant to not invalidate legacy models. But as has been always pointed out by the community, GW is moving towards rules = available from boxed models, so somewhere in the future this is being expected to be phased out. Whether it is soon when GW thinks it has given enough time to people to adapt; or never because it hopes these fringe cases will fade out with Indexes getting out of sale when all codices have been released, is anyone's guess.
If they really had wanted these options to stay legal indefinitely, they would have been in the codices. So their underlying will is to get rid of them (which as stated above could just mean a patient wait for things to fade out) or at least not actively promote them. In the US the trend seems to let the FC stand as long as it is not explicitly invalidated, in Europe non-Index seems to be more the approach to prepare for the future, or reckon that all codices being out means indexes that were meant as placeholder now not really count anymore and the FC is just an artifact to quell player grumbling at their models being invalidated.
When/if a hard invalidation of the FC/Index happens is hard to say. Could be next year, could be in 5 years, could be never. To plan a current army/model today based on these rules is not sure to pass the test of time, so be aware of that. In the meantime, it's GW-legal. Tournies/Events as usual may have their own restrictions (check with TOs) like with FW units but to a lesser degree.
They make money on index's so why force the models out? They may well us the data mined from events to see value in putting a model out later. So... i dunno. A lot of people like rough riders for example as low cost brigade fillers. Some of the things in the codex could easily be sold as a compendium with the most updated FAQ's in it. So there are marketing uses to sell what would otherwise be free online. I think smart people can make money here.
Jancoran wrote: They make money on index's so why force the models out?
Not any more, they don't. The only Index GW still sell is Imperium 2.
Go go compendium.
He is talking about the fact that they don't sell the Index's anymore (Which they don't), and 90% of the index options are upgrades for units not full units them selves that are already in other kits that you have for that army, and the few units that you need to buy separate kits for (think Tyranids Shrieks) no one plays them anyways, or they just use the same units (Kabals with Blaster just use as Trueborn) so they are not really making money from index units.
So i just had a pretty dissapointing experience with our fliers. I ran 2x razorwing + 1 voidraven yesterday in a blind game. Ended up playing against alpha legion with Rubricae, slaanesh obliterators, multiple contemptor dreads and a deredeo dread.
my flyers all got a single round of shooting before being taken down by the oblits/dreads.
I made other mistakes in the game but losing those felt almost out of my control since i HAVE to move them forward. I checked after the game and i noticed that many people were saying that they are overrated models and i finally understand why. i'd much rather run ravagers since i can actually control where they are and keep them hidden from some firepower.
(also, deepstriking wyches is a big feelbad when they miss their charge)
VladimirHerzog wrote: So i just had a pretty dissapointing experience with our fliers. I ran 2x razorwing + 1 voidraven yesterday in a blind game. Ended up playing against alpha legion with Rubricae, slaanesh obliterators, multiple contemptor dreads and a deredeo dread.
my flyers all got a single round of shooting before being taken down by the oblits/dreads.
I made other mistakes in the game but losing those felt almost out of my control since i HAVE to move them forward. I checked after the game and i noticed that many people were saying that they are overrated models and i finally understand why. i'd much rather run ravagers since i can actually control where they are and keep them hidden from some firepower.
(also, deepstriking wyches is a big feelbad when they miss their charge)
Turn them sideways, and place them on the opposite side of the board you want to attack, at deployment. This obviates the need to move forward very much in turn one. one hopes by the end of turn 2 you've done sufficient damage to curtail their anti-air presence.
VladimirHerzog wrote: So i just had a pretty dissapointing experience with our fliers. I ran 2x razorwing + 1 voidraven yesterday in a blind game. Ended up playing against alpha legion with Rubricae, slaanesh obliterators, multiple contemptor dreads and a deredeo dread.
my flyers all got a single round of shooting before being taken down by the oblits/dreads.
I made other mistakes in the game but losing those felt almost out of my control since i HAVE to move them forward. I checked after the game and i noticed that many people were saying that they are overrated models and i finally understand why. i'd much rather run ravagers since i can actually control where they are and keep them hidden from some firepower.
(also, deepstriking wyches is a big feelbad when they miss their charge)
Turn them sideways, and place them on the opposite side of the board you want to attack, at deployment. This obviates the need to move forward very much in turn one. one hopes by the end of turn 2 you've done sufficient damage to curtail their anti-air presence.
But you have to remember: this is a dice game.
i deployed them all the way in the back of my deployment zone, out of range of any of his guns.
I'll have to try them out again in the future, maybe it was simply the fact that i was playing against oblits that made them look weak. i tried moving the minimum range while being in range to shoot at something worthwhile but since he deepstruck his oblits, there wasnt really a way for me to kill them before they killed me (god i wish 40k had alternating activations in situations like this)
VladimirHerzog wrote: So i just had a pretty dissapointing experience with our fliers. I ran 2x razorwing + 1 voidraven yesterday in a blind game. Ended up playing against alpha legion with Rubricae, slaanesh obliterators, multiple contemptor dreads and a deredeo dread.
my flyers all got a single round of shooting before being taken down by the oblits/dreads.
I made other mistakes in the game but losing those felt almost out of my control since i HAVE to move them forward. I checked after the game and i noticed that many people were saying that they are overrated models and i finally understand why. i'd much rather run ravagers since i can actually control where they are and keep them hidden from some firepower.
(also, deepstriking wyches is a big feelbad when they miss their charge)
Turn them sideways, and place them on the opposite side of the board you want to attack, at deployment. This obviates the need to move forward very much in turn one. one hopes by the end of turn 2 you've done sufficient damage to curtail their anti-air presence.
But you have to remember: this is a dice game.
i deployed them all the way in the back of my deployment zone, out of range of any of his guns.
I'll have to try them out again in the future, maybe it was simply the fact that i was playing against oblits that made them look weak. i tried moving the minimum range while being in range to shoot at something worthwhile but since he deepstruck his oblits, there wasnt really a way for me to kill them before they killed me (god i wish 40k had alternating activations in situations like this)
I played a guy who house ruled activations. it was kind of absurd. Believe me: you don't want that.
Sometimes the shot you dont take is the best one you ever took. Sometimes against some forces, you haveto thin the herd before engaging. My Sisters of Battle are aware of this. They are fragile and easy to kill. So it behooves me to whittle the anti-infantry strngth a bit before committing them whole hog. So sometimes that means merely advancing them back and behind cover or around to the other side of a building shadow while the exorcists fire away.
The Dark Eldar can hit quite hard, but soemtimes, the Dark Eldar players i see get way too aggressie and overextend. with Dark eldar you should have ZERO problem cutting off Deep Strikes and that in turn should give you zero problems protecting the jets for two turns (barring just plain dumb luck with some long range goodness they have).
I'm just speaking from my own experience with many mnay armies and the one thing I find about 8E is that cutting off the Deep Strikes with the cheapest of characters and or units is just easy. You get some 9 inch sticks or whatever, and place the unit at the vertex from the absolute corners, exactly 9". Then measure 9" and put another unit. And so on. a little Haemonculous can cut off a large swath.
net result: the enemy ends up in front of your guns and not behind you or around you. They are no better off than if they started on the board. Misdirection on your deployment will also help. Like i said: deploy to the side you dont intend to atack and use your amaxing speed to jet the other way. now you're pretty far from the enemys main force and firing freely.
Nothing works all the time, but this is some food for thought.
oh i know screening isnt hard to achieve, the problem with his oblits is that he didnt deepstrike them behind me, he dropped them right in the middle of his castle, right next to his auras and masters of possessions for the buffs. He used the deepstrike defensively so that i couldnt shoot them down before they could shoot
VladimirHerzog wrote: oh i know screening isnt hard to achieve, the problem with his oblits is that he didnt deepstrike them behind me, he dropped them right in the middle of his castle, right next to his auras and masters of possessions for the buffs. He used the deepstrike defensively so that i couldnt shoot them down before they could shoot
Cant win em all. But you'll know its coming next time so question is...what's the plan?
Burnage wrote: Venom spam is great, but it's mostly due to target saturation and the durability of the Venoms as opposed to the poison weaponry itself.
Regarding Venom-spam, do you think Warriors with Blasters are the best units to put into the Venoms?
Well I'm new to dark eldar but with the list I'm working on above, I just thought I was a bit light on anti- tank.
I guess if you've got plenty of other anti tank you could run them cheap with no upgrades.
Blasters fit in nicely with the range of splinter cannons though, as long as I'm within 18" it's all good, shredders are cool but a bit shorter range I think.
VladimirHerzog wrote: oh i know screening isnt hard to achieve, the problem with his oblits is that he didnt deepstrike them behind me, he dropped them right in the middle of his castle, right next to his auras and masters of possessions for the buffs. He used the deepstrike defensively so that i couldnt shoot them down before they could shoot
Cant win em all. But you'll know its coming next time so question is...what's the plan?
Im not sure but my main plan will be to stay out of range of his castle, and run ravagers instead of flyers, that way i can have better control on what he can shoot at. Also having something (ravagers) be black heart so i can vect his endless cacophony will help.
also, i probably am forcing the cults too much since i love the wych/reaver models.
Burnage wrote: Venom spam is great, but it's mostly due to target saturation and the durability of the Venoms as opposed to the poison weaponry itself.
Regarding Venom-spam, do you think Warriors with Blasters are the best units to put into the Venoms?
I'd say so. If you're spamming them you want them to be as effective against as many potential targets as possible and Blasters mixed with poison weaponry is the easiest way to achieve that.
Burnage wrote: Venom spam is great, but it's mostly due to target saturation and the durability of the Venoms as opposed to the poison weaponry itself.
Regarding Venom-spam, do you think Warriors with Blasters are the best units to put into the Venoms?
I'd say so. If you're spamming them you want them to be as effective against as many potential targets as possible and Blasters mixed with poison weaponry is the easiest way to achieve that.
Honestly.... 12 Venoms + 12 Kabals and 12 Blasters (3 Archons + Yvarine for 2 Battalions) can win tournaments, its just boring as all and its only 1850 ish points, you can easily throw in other things or another Venom.
I keep feeling mixed about venoms. They still cost quite a bit and a couple good anti-tank shots will still take em down. Yeah you can spread it out if you take 5 model warrior squads with a blaster in each venom but then the amount of firepower they're putting out for that cost just feels low even if each dead venom and squad doesn't do much. I understand it if you want to have some cheap 'objective secured' units and if you want a transport for your minimum troops you're forced to take but i just don't know.
As far as blaster-born go i'd rather go for shredders but that's partly because blasterborn have a huge target on them by being anti-tank and anti-monster.
Our list is an interesting one though. We have some hard hitters that are super fragile outside of vehicles and bikes and coven units. I definitely wouldn't run anything that gets in close if it's fragile unless it's also very cheap in points.
flamingkillamajig wrote: I keep feeling mixed about venoms. They still cost quite a bit and a couple good anti-tank shots will still take em down. Yeah you can spread it out if you take 5 model warrior squads with a blaster in each venom but then the amount of firepower they're putting out for that cost just feels low even if each dead venom and squad doesn't do much. I understand it if you want to have some cheap 'objective secured' units and if you want a transport for your minimum troops you're forced to take but i just don't know.
Yeah, I tend to have similar issues.
The real problem is that their firepower is almost entirely poison shots, and poison is so awful in 8th.
65 points for a Venom is not a lot at all. Considering their innate stat line (and that they can get a 6+++ from Black Heart) they're an absolute bargain.
flamingkillamajig wrote: I keep feeling mixed about venoms. They still cost quite a bit and a couple good anti-tank shots will still take em down. Yeah you can spread it out if you take 5 model warrior squads with a blaster in each venom but then the amount of firepower they're putting out for that cost just feels low even if each dead venom and squad doesn't do much. I understand it if you want to have some cheap 'objective secured' units and if you want a transport for your minimum troops you're forced to take but i just don't know.
Yeah, I tend to have similar issues.
The real problem is that their firepower is almost entirely poison shots, and poison is so awful in 8th.
I didnt play earlier edititions but thats also how i feel. When i play against GEQ, poison's great. If i end up facing power armior, it gets harder. I had a game recently where i just couldnt dent Rubricae nor Obliterators with my poison. 2+ saves are a pain to play against. I feel that because of that dissi ravagers are basically a mandatory tax for our army.
Burnage wrote: 65 points for a Venom is not a lot at all.
I mean, the platform is alright. If only it had actual weapons, as opposed to a pair of water pistols.
Then again, it probably doesn't help that we simply lack units that can make meaningful use of the Venom. Kabalites with Blaster in a Venom are 112pts with what amounts to 1 worthwhile gun between them.
Yes, the Venom has passable defensive stats . . . but this is the edition of overwhelming offence. A unit that costs barely less than a Ravager but only brings 1 mini-Dark Lance and a handful of nerf guns just isn't impressive.
Venoms are perfectly Priced IMO, when it was 75pts base i would never take them over Raiders (and many others as well).
A few things about them.
Pros: Fast Fly -1 to hit Lots of shots Small
Cons: 5 transport (Major con) Poison shots (cant hurt vehicles and weaker vs T2/T3) 6 wounds No AP
Why Venom spam works so well? well 3 main reason 1) Troops are super cheap, 30pts for kabals 2) They are not large threats, and just cheap enough to spam 3) They dont give up extra points in ITC, outside of ITC you see more Raiders as they are actually slightly better in some ways (40% more wounds but takes 16% more damage, still tougher, holds more, and the gun is still good, especially when you takes 10 of them)
If it wasnt for ITC secondaries you honetly would see WAY more Raiders.
Can other armies and units do the same thing? YES! Tau, CWE, Quins, can all do this and in some cases with multi units. Tau can use Piranhas (extremely good, but again ITC is biased against them), Quins can use Starweavers, lets talk about Starweaver spam (something i'm familiar with)
Starweavers are 34pts more, for 4++ over 5++ and its 4++ is in melee too (so better for melee tie up), 6 Str 6 with chance of AP shots (so its always better for the most part vs non-Orc/nid horde style armies), 6 transport slots, and can advance and still shoot, moving 22, can even use traits to ignore modifiers when advancing.
So to give an example, i had 10 Starweavers and 3 Voidweavers list i played for a while trying to make Quins work (we play mono events a lot) and it did better than Venom spam honestly, mostly b.c the Starweavers gave protection to the 2 DJ', Solitaire, Shadowseer, 2 TM's, finally 3 basic troupe squads. It was very limited on CP (9CP) and i wasnt using Skyweavers at the time (Knight Castellen meta yet) But taking out the 3 Voidweavers for the Skyweavers is perfect points.
In test games I beat 3 of the meta lists at that time (this was Pre Fly nerf, so BA's 0 charge DSing was a thing).
Why is venom spam a thing over Starweaver spam then? Honestly? 2 reasons, 1) its cheaper, just b.c something else is better, something cheaper is just better, and Troops, 30pts vs 65 and Kabals (again cheaper) are more useful, shooting is better than melee when you are inside a shooting tank. If Troupes were 8pts a model like they should be it would be different, i know 15pts saved on a 5man isnt much, but 3 units at 65pts is 195pts, where at 40pts its 120, that means you save enough to get 4th unit and still save on points. (They are weaker than wyches in everyway, but they always get a 4++ and RC, vs PFP, Drugs, Cant fall back, they are equals in points but GW thinks Troupes are elite when they are not)
Wow that's great information thanks! I bought the start collecting box and really dig the venom model so I'm glad to hear it has its uses I did however forget to stipulate that we're only allowed 1 patrol for our lists at these 1k tournies. A buddy of mine runs a bunch of talos and just wipes people with them even at 1k so I'm not interested in going down that path - would like to be a little original even if it's not as competitive
necron99 wrote: Wow that's great information thanks! I bought the start collecting box and really dig the venom model so I'm glad to hear it has its uses I did however forget to stipulate that we're only allowed 1 patrol for our lists at these 1k tournies. A buddy of mine runs a bunch of talos and just wipes people with them even at 1k so I'm not interested in going down that path - would like to be a little original even if it's not as competitive
Just to let you know, it takes 76 (without and re-rolls) Poison shots to kill 1 Talos. So just remember if you are spamming Venoms that it still takes a few with Kabals to hurt them.
Also.. how are your 1k Patrol balanced? I was thinking about do the same for my local actually. 1 Book, 1 Patrol, 1k.
I like the format actually...it's hard to spam stuff and there's no soup. We also get 1CP for each troop unit so you can max out at 6CP on a 4x4 table.
I have been running a lot more cult lately to freshen things up. I have been really impressed by wyches riding in venoms actually.
You can easily zip in and out of range to toss plasma grenades off the back coupled with their pistols and they end up cheaper then Kabs with a blaster (only just since I take nets). You end up with the tactical flexibility to assault with the venom and the squad in later turns and pin units down with the net. If you do it right using the venom to soak overwatch and hit the unit from the other side splitting their pile ins you can actually trap them while taking little damage and prevent the venom from being shot as well and really clog their lanes up. Then in your turn you can break that venom off and keep firing and even load the same squad back into it first and delve deeper into their lines. You can really throw someone off as well by firing a tormentor grenade and a haywire grenade for a cheeky 2d3 mortals, although it does cost CP it can really come in clutch.
I won't try to argue it's an easy load out to use, but it is really rewarding when you get it right. I actually find 5 man units of wyches are the best way to run them so it complements the venom well. I have tried 10 man units in raiders many times and they just end up being a bigger target and don't pull they same weight oddly enough.
5 man kabs in venoms are obviously the go to for most folks, and it's a solid composition as well, but I actually find I have more tricks up my sleeve with wyches crewing venoms. I generally run a cult and kabal detachment though and I almost always make my actual venoms kabal traits, flayed skull or black heart are the obvious choices since you gain mobility or durability.
It's probably worth pointing out that Shredders on Kabalites in Venoms seems to be the new hotness in the tournament circuits. That surprises me a bit because it's pretty strongly engrained in my mind that Blasters are Good, but I can definitely see why it's working on paper.
Burnage wrote: It's probably worth pointing out that Shredders on Kabalites in Venoms seems to be the new hotness in the tournament circuits. That surprises me a bit because it's pretty strongly engrained in my mind that Blasters are Good, but I can definitely see why it's working on paper.
Shredders are good, re-roll wounds, some AP, Str 6, and 1/2 the points as a blaster, Blaster were only good back in the day when you NEEDED them for Anti-tank, now even Str 1 can hurt tanks. But honestly IMO it still not worth it, 12" range is to short.
From my limited experience with the army, i feel like blasters are a necessity. I feel like the army doesnt have many ways to deal with high-toughness targets. How would you answer a dreadnought Spam or Tank Spam list?
VladimirHerzog wrote: From my limited experience with the army, i feel like blasters are a necessity. I feel like the army doesnt have many ways to deal with high-toughness targets. How would you answer a dreadnought Spam or Tank Spam list?
I'm the same. My armies always struggle much more against vehicles than against infantry. And the existence of Knights skews things even more.
VladimirHerzog wrote: From my limited experience with the army, i feel like blasters are a necessity. I feel like the army doesnt have many ways to deal with high-toughness targets. How would you answer a dreadnought Spam or Tank Spam list?
I'm the same. My armies always struggle much more against vehicles than against infantry. And the existence of Knights skews things even more.
i've heard good things said about haywire scourge/talos but from my experience so far, its been quite middling. Even in melee, talos havnt impressed me.
this is probably because my main army is admech and destroying tanks is an afterthought in that army.
My primary army is guard and I love my tank heavy lists I can tell you from experience you don't have to destroy tanks to win...just tie them up and they're just a bunch of door stops. A really nimble army or one that can make a hole in my meat shield usually eats my lunch.
necron99 wrote: My primary army is guard and I love my tank heavy lists I can tell you from experience you don't have to destroy tanks to win...just tie them up and they're just a bunch of door stops. A really nimble army or one that can make a hole in my meat shield usually eats my lunch.
Thats how i almost won my latest game against CSM, he had 4 dreads and my venom spent 4 turns locking them every turn. if the game ended on turn 5 i wouldve won, instead i got tabled and lost :(.
VladimirHerzog wrote: i've heard good things said about haywire scourge/talos but from my experience so far, its been quite middling. Even in melee, talos havnt impressed me.
The issue with Haywire Scourges is that they're generally only good for 1 turn, after which they get blown to bits.
They're cheap at least but not really consistent (given that their shots are random and you're basically fishing for 6s afterwards).
Talos are a unit I've had almost no success with.
necron99 wrote: My primary army is guard and I love my tank heavy lists I can tell you from experience you don't have to destroy tanks to win...just tie them up and they're just a bunch of door stops. A really nimble army or one that can make a hole in my meat shield usually eats my lunch.
Unfortunately, this often isn't possible.
Many of the vehicles that have caused me the most issues are ones that can freely disengage from combat with little to no penalty.
Hell, against Tau, Knights and a FW dreadnought I've literally had whole Talos and units of Grotesques get completely vaporised by Overwatch.
VladimirHerzog wrote: i've heard good things said about haywire scourge/talos but from my experience so far, its been quite middling. Even in melee, talos havnt impressed me.
The issue with Haywire Scourges is that they're generally only good for 1 turn, after which they get blown to bits.
They're cheap at least but not really consistent (given that their shots are random and you're basically fishing for 6s afterwards).
Talos are a unit I've had almost no success with.
necron99 wrote: My primary army is guard and I love my tank heavy lists I can tell you from experience you don't have to destroy tanks to win...just tie them up and they're just a bunch of door stops. A really nimble army or one that can make a hole in my meat shield usually eats my lunch.
Unfortunately, this often isn't possible.
Many of the vehicles that have caused me the most issues are ones that can freely disengage from combat with little to no penalty.
Hell, against Tau, Knights and a FW dreadnought I've literally had whole Talos and units of Grotesques get completely vaporised by Overwatch.
This is one of the big reasons why the Vexator Mask is so good. Charge with the HQ first and the Talos or Grotesques can follow up risk-free. Reavers and Venoms are also disposable enough to just throw them at a shooty target - it doesn't really matter if they do get shot to death.
I think the tournament meta is generally favouring infantry-heavy lists as well after the Knight nerf, so that should be taken into account when thinking about the rise in popularity of Shredders.
How do grotesques help against vehicles that can fallback and shoot? they do minimal damage so they wont really kill vehicles unless you have suepr good luck.
This is one of the big reasons why the Vexator Mask is so good. Charge with the HQ first and the Talos or Grotesques can follow up risk-free.
It's been in all my lists, but there's no guarantee that the Haemonculus will make his charge - especially since (by necessity) he'll be further back than the Grots/Talos.
Burnage wrote: Reavers and Venoms are also disposable enough to just throw them at a shooty target - it doesn't really matter if they do get shot to death.
Is it really good tactics to just hand my opponent free kills at no cost to them?
Burnage wrote: I think the tournament meta is generally favouring infantry-heavy lists as well after the Knight nerf, so that should be taken into account when thinking about the rise in popularity of Shredders.
VladimirHerzog wrote: How do grotesques help against vehicles that can fallback and shoot? they do minimal damage so they wont really kill vehicles unless you have suepr good luck.
I meant that more against enemies with strong overwatch, but 5 attacks each at strength 5 with AP - 2 isn't the worst damage in the world. Bear in mind you can use The Torturer's Craft stratagem to get them to reroll wounds as well if you want to push things a bit more in your favour.
Burnage wrote: Reavers and Venoms are also disposable enough to just throw them at a shooty target - it doesn't really matter if they do get shot to death.
Is it really good tactics to just hand my opponent free kills at no cost to them?
It depends on context, somewhat. Charging a stream of fragile units into heavy flamers, causing them to rack up kills in your own phase? Uh, yeah, okay, maybe rethink that strategy a bit. Managing to get into close combat with a unit so either a) they need to fall back and can't shoot or charge next turn, or b) have to spend their turn killing your unit instead of doing something else? That's a pretty good tactic. You're still handing your opponent a free kill, technically, but it's absolutely at a cost to them.
Distraction and trickery are part of our armoury. You could see giving up a unit of Kabalites or a Venom or whatever as a free kill to your opponent, but if it means they miss out on an objective or killing a Ravager then it's a good call.
Hmm something i feel like i will have to work on is to stop thinking that i HAVE to destroy threats. I have to work on using the speed of the army to my advantage, moving out of range of dangerous models instead of trying over and over to kill them.
VladimirHerzog wrote: Hmm something i feel like i will have to work on is to stop thinking that i HAVE to destroy threats. I have to work on using the speed of the army to my advantage, moving out of range of dangerous models instead of trying over and over to kill them.
This is why wyches are better then most give credit. They are very good at locking up PITA targets.
VladimirHerzog wrote: Hmm something i feel like i will have to work on is to stop thinking that i HAVE to destroy threats. I have to work on using the speed of the army to my advantage, moving out of range of dangerous models instead of trying over and over to kill them.
This is why wyches are better then most give credit. They are very good at locking up PITA targets.
yeah i love the wych models, thats mainly why i picked drukhari as my second army.
I havnt had much success with them, they die quickly.
I've tried them as groups of 5 in venoms and as a big blob of 20 getting deepstriked (only to fail their rerollable charge )
My next games i'll try them in groups of 10 in raiders, i really want to make them work.
I also want to try out the Yncarne so i'll probably run one as a second HQ in a cult batallion.
I actually have more success with 5 in venoms like I said. They are cheap and fast, and can easily hide or charge from behind LOS blocking pieces. Wyches aren't their to whipe units, they are their to get in the way, and tie things down and ultimately die. The other good part about the shard net is the impaler. That thing will surprise you with it's 2 damage, I often manage to kill characters with the 5 girl team, if I don't they trap the bastard They make great hit teams. You just need to get past the mental image that they should be wading into large units and cutting through hundreds of light infantry, other things do that better. I use my bikes and hellions to kill targets and wyches to pin them down, which incidentally can save the other twos bacon if you plan your assaults well by trpaping things.
Sorry I know I am harping on about trapping things, but thats literally the best use with wyches and even spare succubi. It takes practice and finness, and I'd encourage you to mock up targets and just move your models and experiment with ways to get in and hold targets, it only works on things with the infantry keyword, but that's most things.
You can easily zip in and out of range to toss plasma grenades off the back coupled with their pistols and they end up cheaper then Kabs with a blaster (only just since I take nets).
I have found the Red Grief Wyches on foot work best for me. I only run them and when I do I run a saturation list.....I am aggressive with everything.....Flyers, Raiders, Reavers all moving forward and forcing the opponent to pick his poison. I then just adjust to whatever they pick to concentrate on.
Wyches almost always get left alone and with the Advance and Charge, I often get them where I need them.
4 Venoms, 3 Raiders and a Flyer or two along with a 15 man blob of Wyches......:-)
I'm by no means a competitive player but I can certainly say that the Wyches in my lists are almost always my MVPs. I regularly run around 30 wyches in my lists. I run two raiders full of ten and one raider of 9 with my succubus. It's worth noting that my usual matches are 1000 to 1250 points. My typical loadout looks like this:
10 wyches w/ razorflails x2 and shardnet x1 w/ +1 strength drug
10 wyches w/ hydra gauntlets x2 and shardnet x1 w/ +1 attack drug
9 wyches w/ shardnet x1 w/ +1 toughness drug (Succubus goes with this squad)
As for the Hekatrix in each squad I often put a power sword in with the +1 strength drug and agonizers on the other two. Blast pistols have never disappointed me either. I do really enjoy the use of phantasm grenade launchers on them if points allow as well. This all may seem like a marge investment in a wych squad but I don't mind as like I've said they always seem to perform very well for me.
I often run cursed blade, the morale protection and +1 strength on wyches is amazing, especially that razorflail squad with the strength drug punching at strength 5 catches a lot of people off guard. Cult of Strife has also been fun for me, it's an insane amount of attacks on the hydra gauntlet squad.
My raiders are loaded up with disintegrator cannons and shock prows, at 1 point it seems like a good bargain to me for the odd wound it'll put out over the bladevanes. I've used dark lances as well and I was reasonable happy with them.
For general strategies I've found it pays to be aggressive with them. I'm not heartbroken if a raider dies so advancing them turn one to get as close as possible into the gunlines generally works for me. It may just be luck but mostly my raiders have been resilient enough that even if they do blow up my opponent hasn't had much other units to shoot at the passengers with so I generally have an almost full squad ready to rock on my turn. I always charge my raiders into combat before my wyches too so they can eat overwatch, saves so many lives that way. Locking opponents in is a huge deal for wyches so as mentioned above even if you have shardnets get used to wrapping opponents. I've even encircled leman russes to pin them between a raider and the wyches for a turn until the wyches can wrap sufficiently to allow the raider to fly elsewhere.
Target priority is also very important, I use my Wyches as bully squads to pick on weak infantry to chew up, elite infantry to bog down in 4++ or tanks that can't fly away to shoot. Ignore the big guys, pick on the support and win with board control. Disruption is the name of the game here. My mandrakes and 5-man naked wracks can tackle objectives for very little investment.
The haywire grenade and torment grenade launcher stratagems can also be used to dish out some MW on your opponent from a source they'd normally not have expected it from.
Sorry for the long post, I'm just really excited that for the first time in a long time wyches feel like they add value to a DE force and I'm glad to not feel handicapped for mostly running Cult. My experience with Wyches may not be the norm but in my local meta they have performed quite well.
Interesting to hear all these Wych strategies. You guys have really made me want to try them.
Da-Rock wrote: I have found the Red Grief Wyches on foot work best for me. I only run them and when I do I run a saturation list.....I am aggressive with everything.....Flyers, Raiders, Reavers all moving forward and forcing the opponent to pick his poison. I then just adjust to whatever they pick to concentrate on.
Wyches almost always get left alone and with the Advance and Charge, I often get them where I need them.
4 Venoms, 3 Raiders and a Flyer or two along with a 15 man blob of Wyches......:-)
Out of interest, do you think 3 squads of 5 Wyches could work for this? (Thinking in terms of avoiding morale and also getting extra Hekatrixes.)
Inevitable_Faith wrote: I'm by no means a competitive player but I can certainly say that the Wyches in my lists are almost always my MVPs. I regularly run around 30 wyches in my lists. I run two raiders full of ten and one raider of 9 with my succubus. It's worth noting that my usual matches are 1000 to 1250 points. My typical loadout looks like this:
Sorry if this is a silly question, but why only 1 Succubus?
If you're running 3 units of Wyches, I'd assume you were using a Battalion, so shouldn't that necessitate an extra Succubus?
Sorry if this is a silly question, but why only 1 Succubus?
If you're running 3 units of Wyches, I'd assume you were using a Battalion, so shouldn't that necessitate an extra Succubus?
He might be running the other succubus as a backfield objective holder?
I personally plan on trying out one of the Ynnari HQ's as my second HQ choice for a Cult detachment (probably the yncarne since the model is amazing).
Blood glaive/triptych Succubus are the only way that i feel they can perform, a naked succubus doesnt bring much to the table.
Blood glaive/triptych Succubus are the only way that i feel they can perform, a naked succubus doesnt bring much to the table.
Blood Glaive is one of the main reasons why Red Grief is my go-to subfaction for Cults, and also a reason why I'm dubious of running Wych Cults as Ynnari.
That said, I'd like to try a Succubus with Hydra Gauntlets and the Precision Blows warlord trait (Mortal Wounds on 6s and rerolls to wound).
Blood glaive/triptych Succubus are the only way that i feel they can perform, a naked succubus doesnt bring much to the table.
Blood Glaive is one of the main reasons why Red Grief is my go-to subfaction for Cults, and also a reason why I'm dubious of running Wych Cults as Ynnari.
I feel very conflicted about this - Red Grief is excellent for Reavers and Succubi with the Blood Glaive and 3++, but Cursed Blade and Strife provide more benefit overall.
Red Grief's still the one I run most often but I don't think it's objectively and universally better than the others, unlike Prophets of the Flesh for Covens.
I feel very conflicted about this - Red Grief is excellent for Reavers and Succubi with the Blood Glaive and 3++, but Cursed Blade and Strife provide more benefit overall.
Red Grief's still the one I run most often but I don't think it's objectively and universally better than the others, unlike Prophets of the Flesh for Covens.
Yeah, I think the Cults are a lot closer in power than the Covens.
If anything, the issue lies with the Succubus being so poor as a melee character.
Anyway, part of my choosing Red Grief is that I usually focus on Reavers rather than Wyches. I can see Strife or Cursed Blade being a better choice if you're using mainly Wych squads.
I feel very conflicted about this - Red Grief is excellent for Reavers and Succubi with the Blood Glaive and 3++, but Cursed Blade and Strife provide more benefit overall.
Red Grief's still the one I run most often but I don't think it's objectively and universally better than the others, unlike Prophets of the Flesh for Covens.
Yeah, I think the Cults are a lot closer in power than the Covens.
If anything, the issue lies with the Succubus being so poor as a melee character.
Anyway, part of my choosing Red Grief is that I usually focus on Reavers rather than Wyches. I can see Strife or Cursed Blade being a better choice if you're using mainly Wych squads.
i share the same opinion, at least the succubus is reasonably cheap. i still have a hard time making a cult battalion, i usually go for outrider or patrol .
are the non-prophet covens even playable? it seems like the prophet have : the better relic, the better warlord trait AND the better stratagem out of the bunch... oh and an actually useable trait.
on a similar topic, i find that the kabals of obsidian rose and poisoned tongue are underwhelming compared to flayed skull/black heart.
are the non-prophet covens even playable? it seems like the prophet have : the better relic, the better warlord trait AND the better stratagem out of the bunch... oh and an actually useable trait.
Yes but 'playable' isn't the same as 'good'.
Coven of Twelve doesn't seem too bad, though definitely not as good as Prophets. Dark Creed seems like something you'd need to build your entire army around and it still wouldn't be very good.
on a similar topic, i find that the kabals of obsidian rose and poisoned tongue are underwhelming compared to flayed skull/black heart.
Obsidian Rose doesn't seem too bad, but Poison Tongue is really badly designed.
To be honest, I think what really bugs me is that the Poison Tongue ability doesn't work with artefacts. It just comes across as the designers being petty, rather than being done for actual balance concerns.
Me - 'Well, Poison Tongue is the melee faction, so I guess I'll take the Djin Blade on my Archon.'
Designers - 'Okay, then you don't get rerolls to wound in melee.'
Me - 'Wait, but that's the whole point of my taking a melee artefact in the first place.'
Designers - 'Doesn't work.'
Me - 'So you're telling me that the only melee relic for Kabal doesn't actually work with the melee Kabal bonus.'
Designers - 'Yep. Bet you wish you'd picked Black Heart instead.'
Me - 'Yeah, it's a real tragedy that I can't use any of those Kabal special characters. Oh. Right.'
Designers - 'Just be grateful we left you any special characters at all.'
Me - 'Whatever. I guess I'll take the Soul Seeker instead then.'
Designers - 'That doesn't get the rerolls either.'
Me - 'But it's the relic for Poison Tongue? Why on Terra would it not benefit from their own bonus?!'
Designers - 'It just doesn't. Now go away and play a proper Kabal.'
I'm coming around to the idea of a Cult Battalion, just because it's so cheap (220 points before upgrades and transports) and Wyches are actually pretty good at locking down enemy infantry.
They certainly seem like the most viable second faction Battalion currently for my particular playstyle - Craftworlds with jetbike psykers used to be auto-include but are now very expensive for what they bring to a mainly Drukhari list, Harlequins are way too expensive to bring that many Players, Covens are a bit slow for personal comfort and I'd rather avoid needing to bring two more Archons by running a second Kabal Battalion.
You can easily zip in and out of range to toss plasma grenades off the back coupled with their pistols and they end up cheaper then Kabs with a blaster (only just since I take nets).
Do you take anything on the Hekatrix?
I tried the crap out of blast pistols but stopped taking them. I only take PGL on a couple (not all) for the strat. The reality is your never going to shoot most of them, and the ones you do you will get one shot if your lucky so I don't spend the points. 10 points is way too much IMHO. I wouldn't blame someone for taking an agonizer but generally I just keep the knife for the additional attack. I wish she could take a wych weapon.
I feel very conflicted about this - Red Grief is excellent for Reavers and Succubi with the Blood Glaive and 3++, but Cursed Blade and Strife provide more benefit overall.
Red Grief's still the one I run most often but I don't think it's objectively and universally better than the others, unlike Prophets of the Flesh for Covens.
Yeah, I think the Cults are a lot closer in power than the Covens.
If anything, the issue lies with the Succubus being so poor as a melee character.
Anyway, part of my choosing Red Grief is that I usually focus on Reavers rather than Wyches. I can see Strife or Cursed Blade being a better choice if you're using mainly Wych squads.
Strife reavers are actually insane, with +1 attack drug they piss out attacks and have access to the fight again strat. Highly recommend giving them a shot if you haven't. You can mulch entire flanks of infantry and still pile into tanks. Remember that when fighting twice your getting another 6" on pile in and consolidating after the initial 6" which can be used to really get into the fray since they fly now that they fixed the FAQ.
Re: succubi the blood glave is decent but she always fell flat for me. When I run red greith I usually just take double net succubus now since the advance and charge and +2 move means they can get almost anywhere for the lock down. Triptich bitch from cult of strife on the other hand is insane. Whip, blood dancer WLT and the +1 to hit drug on turn 3 (turn 2 with strat) just vomits attacks. I regularly get 16 hits with her but have had her up to 20. Pretty incredible mileage from a 54 point model. I actually find the cursed blade succubus the worst, but really funny on the rare occasion you pull off a good traitors embrace.
All three cults are well balanced though, I think the cults are the best written obsessions personally since there is no one obvious choice and all three can be made to fit based on your play style.
Coven are the worst balanced, they gave the best obsession, relic and WLT to the coven with the best special character lol.
Ah your right, fair enough. Guess I'll need to hyper stym her if I want to go full bananas. She is still pretty efficient. Overall I think the shard net and impaler are the best load out on succubi but the few relic builds are cheap enough and a lot of fun that I usually take one.
The Warlord Archon will probably start in the Venom but will get out on the first turn and try to get behind LoS-blocking terrain to use his Soul Seeker. The other Archon will ride with the Lhamaeans and try to find a heavy-infantry or monster to attack.
The Succubus with Hydra Gauntlets will ride with the Shardnet & Impailer Wyches, whilst the Shardnet & Impailer Succubus will ride with the Hydra Gauntlet Wyches (so both units will have access to a Shardnet). The Razorflail Wyches will have the +1S drug and will be off on their own. Warriors, Ravager and Razorwing will do their usual thing.
Anyway here's to hoping it works. The bikes have 8 blasters, archons have 2 more blasters, 27 dissie shots, 12 shredders. It should be enough anti-tank/monster and should throw out some decent anti-infantry too. The dissies are a bit multi-role here so we'll see how it goes. I made the succubus warlord have +1 WS to counter-act the -1 to hit and +1 S because monsters are usually T 7 and i figured the damage should be helpful vs anything that large. I could possibly stimm boost her if i face T 8 but since she has stimm addict that'd hurt considerably.
@red corsair: I'm actually up in the air about Red Grief or Cult of Strife myself. The amount of attacks and double shooting if i kill something with those reaver blasters could definitely be worth it. That said i may need to bog down the enemy with a unit and if i face something really big then that Strife stratagem would be worthless. If that is the case Red Grief is preferred. Also i can't get Blood Glaive with Strife so it's a bit of a tough call.
flamingkillamajig wrote: I made the succubus warlord have +1 WS to counter-act the -1 to hit and +1 S because monsters are usually T 7 and i figured the damage should be helpful vs anything that large. I could possibly stimm boost her if i face T 8 but since she has stimm addict that'd hurt considerably.
The Blood Glaive doesn't have -1 to hit, unlike the standard Archite Glaive, so you might want to give her a different combat drug or Warlord Trait.
flamingkillamajig wrote: I made the succubus warlord have +1 WS to counter-act the -1 to hit and +1 S because monsters are usually T 7 and i figured the damage should be helpful vs anything that large. I could possibly stimm boost her if i face T 8 but since she has stimm addict that'd hurt considerably.
The Blood Glaive doesn't have -1 to hit, unlike the standard Archite Glaive, so you might want to give her a different combat drug or Warlord Trait.
Oh i didn't know that. I figured it was mostly an archite glaive and so had the -1 to hit as well.
Not a huge deal but i also found out i thought the wyches were more expensive than they are so now i get an extra 15 pts i can spend. I'm not sure if i will spend them since it's not that big a deal.
I will probably take the 3++ inv. dodge now that it is something i can do. Either that or i could give her the +1 A combat drug with the +1 S. The bikes need the +1 T though.
Yes even for ITC, and i'll say this again for the 20th time lol
Vanguard
Shadowseer
DJ
DJ
Solitaire
Skyweavers x6, x6 WHC
Apologies, I must have missed you saying this before.
Out of interest, how do you find the Death Jesters?
Not you, but many others, its a common question. Its odd b.c i feel like i'm always talking about it in some page on here or another, no worries.
I love DJ's they are cheap objective holders, with Flip belt, 8" that can run and shoot ignore terrain makes them actually someone fast. Having character protection means they can run around safe.
You need to be careful if someone brings the Assassin tho, that player will go for them, otherwise he run around doing what they want.
I love DJ's they are cheap objective holders, with Flip belt, 8" that can run and shoot ignore terrain makes them actually someone fast. Having character protection means they can run around safe.
Interesting. I've been wondering about including some in my lists (partially for flavour), so that's good to hear.
The one thing that seems odd is that they have 4 attacks but no melee weapon.
I love DJ's they are cheap objective holders, with Flip belt, 8" that can run and shoot ignore terrain makes them actually someone fast. Having character protection means they can run around safe.
Interesting. I've been wondering about including some in my lists (partially for flavour), so that's good to hear.
The one thing that seems odd is that they have 4 attacks but no melee weapon.
So i finally got to try the Yncarne in a real game. My god is it fun to play. I think that from now on it'll be a mainstay in my lists, especially ones where i go with 2 detachments of kabals.
It scored slay the warlord, captured multiple objectives, caused overall confusion for my opponent and let me deny the much important "Da'Jump" she tried casting.
VladimirHerzog wrote: So i finally got to try the Yncarne in a real game. My god is it fun to play. I think that from now on it'll be a mainstay in my lists, especially ones where i go with 2 detachments of kabals.
It scored slay the warlord, captured multiple objectives, caused overall confusion for my opponent and let me deny the much important "Da'Jump" she tried casting.
There's a reason everyone hated the Ynnari army. =)
VladimirHerzog wrote: So i finally got to try the Yncarne in a real game. My god is it fun to play. I think that from now on it'll be a mainstay in my lists, especially ones where i go with 2 detachments of kabals.
It scored slay the warlord, captured multiple objectives, caused overall confusion for my opponent and let me deny the much important "Da'Jump" she tried casting.
There's a reason everyone hated the Ynnari army. =)
It's not near as broken now. Thank God!
yeah i only played one game with the old ynnari and it was wayy overboard. with just the yncarne, it feel fair to play. its just another expensive model that lets me do the "big brain" plays. And the model is super good looking on top of that. Im eager to play it again
Really late to reply here but just wanted to clarify that in my talk about wyches above I didn't mention a second succubus to make a battalion because I don't run a second succubus. I do this for a couple reasons:
1) The succubus is insanely disappointing as an HQ, her melee abilities are pitiful and she can't find any good ride without sacrificing the ability for more special weapons on wych squads. That last bit is more of an issue with DE transports as a whole but it still contributes to her issues. As it stands the only even barely mediocre builds for succubi all involve relics spread across different cults so it caps you at one anyways. As a final note why does our supposed melee master HQ have worse base weapons and number of attacks than our other two generic HQ options?
2) Drug use. I'll be honest it was a mixed bag once drugs weren't random anymore. On the one hand no more rolling LD for our units which is a waste of a drug but on the other hand we only get one of each drug until all are used? Well that scales horribly for anyone wanting to run a primarily cult force. Makes any wych squad after the first two feel like a waste and eats the only drugs that could actually help the succubus do damage at all ( S or A). For this reason I have my number of units I'm comfortable fielding and beyond that the lack of good drugs makes me feel like I'm getting diminishing returns on units that don't get the good stuff. A unit of wyches with +1 A costs the same as a unit with a LD bonus.
So for CP I actually run the raiding party. I know it's not the best way to build our force especially since battalion got a CP boost but the raiding party didn't but at least this way I get to play with our entire codex (not just pick two and make battalions) and I don't have to run multiples of our disappointing HQ selection. I have to be efficient with CP but since I don't run Black heart for Vect most other stratagems don't really break the bank.
Inevitable_Faith wrote: Really late to reply here but just wanted to clarify that in my talk about wyches above I didn't mention a second succubus to make a battalion because I don't run a second succubus. I do this for a couple reasons:
1) The succubus is insanely disappointing as an HQ, her melee abilities are pitiful and she can't find any good ride without sacrificing the ability for more special weapons on wych squads. That last bit is more of an issue with DE transports as a whole but it still contributes to her issues. As it stands the only even barely mediocre builds for succubi all involve relics spread across different cults so it caps you at one anyways. As a final note why does our supposed melee master HQ have worse base weapons and number of attacks than our other two generic HQ options?
2) Drug use. I'll be honest it was a mixed bag once drugs weren't random anymore. On the one hand no more rolling LD for our units which is a waste of a drug but on the other hand we only get one of each drug until all are used? Well that scales horribly for anyone wanting to run a primarily cult force. Makes any wych squad after the first two feel like a waste and eats the only drugs that could actually help the succubus do damage at all ( S or A). For this reason I have my number of units I'm comfortable fielding and beyond that the lack of good drugs makes me feel like I'm getting diminishing returns on units that don't get the good stuff. A unit of wyches with +1 A costs the same as a unit with a LD bonus.
Hey, thanks for getting back to me.
I definitely agree with your comments here. One of the biggest issues with our HQs is that they rely on Warlord Traits and Artefacts just to be passable. And even then they still lack any mobility options.
Regarding Drugs, I really wish you picked a single drug and applied it to your whole army, rather than having to pick a different one for each unit.
So for CP I actually run the raiding party. I know it's not the best way to build our force especially since battalion got a CP boost but the raiding party didn't but at least this way I get to play with our entire codex (not just pick two and make battalions) and I don't have to run multiples of our disappointing HQ selection. I have to be efficient with CP but since I don't run Black heart for Vect most other stratagems don't really break the bank.
Ah, I see. Yeah, that's understandable. I can't do it myself at the moment, as I'm looking to include a small detachment of Ynnari-Harlequins, but I definitely see where you're coming from.
One thing worth bearing in mind with Combat Drugs is that once you've used up all six for the first time, you can repeat any of them as often as you'd like. That makes a primary Wych Cult army a bit stronger than having to repeatedly cycle through the whole list.
Burnage wrote: One thing worth bearing in mind with Combat Drugs is that once you've used up all six for the first time, you can repeat any of them as often as you'd like. That makes a primary Wych Cult army a bit stronger than having to repeatedly cycle through the whole list.
Whilst true, this requires a minimum of 7 Wych units and 3 of them are still going to be stuck with combat drugs that are basically worthless (+1WS, +2M, +2Ld).
Amishprn86 wrote: Succubus is a cheap 50pts HQ that unlocks a 2nd Bat for super cheap.
It also can sit on objectives, i just throw it on a back field objective and have character protection kick in and hold it all game.
yeah, people need to stop expecting her to perform like she does in the fluff. In-game shes a tarpit for heavy infantry (Obliterators) or a backfield holder. Being 50 is cheaper than most HQs in the game, so her not being as strong as a smash captain doesnt mean anything. I like running mine with a shardnet+impaler, the traitor's embrace and the cult of strife warlord trait hold them in and deal damage by saving.
Burnage wrote: One thing worth bearing in mind with Combat Drugs is that once you've used up all six for the first time, you can repeat any of them as often as you'd like. That makes a primary Wych Cult army a bit stronger than having to repeatedly cycle through the whole list.
Whilst true, this requires a minimum of 7 Wych units and 3 of them are still going to be stuck with combat drugs that are basically worthless (+1WS, +2M, +2Ld).
All three of those have their uses, even if they're more limited than +1S or +1A. +1WS helps a Succubus stuck with the standard Archite Glaive or any unit expecting a turn 1 or 2 charge, +2M can help a unit of Reavers running interference, +2LD helps Beastmasters. If you've got a Battalion you're already at five units and it's relatively easy to fill in the blanks from there if you want most of your army to be Wych based.
Burnage wrote: One thing worth bearing in mind with Combat Drugs is that once you've used up all six for the first time, you can repeat any of them as often as you'd like. That makes a primary Wych Cult army a bit stronger than having to repeatedly cycle through the whole list.
Whilst true, this requires a minimum of 7 Wych units and 3 of them are still going to be stuck with combat drugs that are basically worthless (+1WS, +2M, +2Ld).
All three of those have their uses, even if they're more limited than +1S or +1A. +1WS helps a Succubus stuck with the standard Archite Glaive or any unit expecting a turn 1 or 2 charge, +2M can help a unit of Reavers running interference, +2LD helps Beastmasters. If you've got a Battalion you're already at five units and it's relatively easy to fill in the blanks from there if you want most of your army to be Wych based.
Serpentin doesnt actually help a glaive succubus. Her WS becoming WS1 doesnt mean she autohits, shes still going to autofail on 1's. Serpentin does not give +1 to attack rolls like power from pain does.
Burnage wrote: One thing worth bearing in mind with Combat Drugs is that once you've used up all six for the first time, you can repeat any of them as often as you'd like. That makes a primary Wych Cult army a bit stronger than having to repeatedly cycle through the whole list.
Whilst true, this requires a minimum of 7 Wych units and 3 of them are still going to be stuck with combat drugs that are basically worthless (+1WS, +2M, +2Ld).
All three of those have their uses, even if they're more limited than +1S or +1A. +1WS helps a Succubus stuck with the standard Archite Glaive or any unit expecting a turn 1 or 2 charge, +2M can help a unit of Reavers running interference, +2LD helps Beastmasters. If you've got a Battalion you're already at five units and it's relatively easy to fill in the blanks from there if you want most of your army to be Wych based.
Serpentin doesnt actually help a glaive succubus. Her WS becoming WS1 doesnt mean she autohits, shes still going to autofail on 1's. Serpentin does not give +1 to attack rolls like power from pain does.
It's not about auto-hitting, it's to counter the -1 to hit from the Glaive. WS1 means that she's hitting on 2s with the Glaive before the +1 to hit from Power From Pain kicks in.
Edit: This has been explicitly clarified in the Drukhari FAQ;
Q: If a Succubus is given the Serpentin combat drug, does its Weapon Skill characteristic increase to 1+? If so, does the Succubus still hit if a hit roll of 2 is rolled for an attack for a melee weapon and, due to an ability, I have to subtract 1 from that hit roll?
A: Yes, and yes – only unmodified hit rolls of 1 automatically fail.
Serpentin doesnt actually help a glaive succubus. Her WS becoming WS1 doesnt mean she autohits, shes still going to autofail on 1's. Serpentin does not give +1 to attack rolls like power from pain does.
It's not about auto-hitting, it's to counter the -1 to hit from the Glaive. WS1 means that she's hitting on 2s with the Glaive before the +1 to hit from Power From Pain kicks in.
Edit: This has been explicitly clarified in the Drukhari FAQ;
Q: If a Succubus is given the Serpentin combat drug, does its Weapon Skill characteristic increase to 1+? If so, does the Succubus still hit if a hit roll of 2 is rolled for an attack for a melee weapon and, due to an ability, I have to subtract 1 from that hit roll?
A: Yes, and yes – only unmodified hit rolls of 1 automatically fail.
Uh, TIL. i thought that modified rolls of 1 failed too, i guess i got mixed up with the plasma rule. So serpentin/hypex will be my drugs of choice that i use on my succubus from now on. (Unless i go for the big brain plays ans stick my succubus warlord with splintermind in a tantalus)
Amishprn86 wrote: Succubus is a cheap 50pts HQ that unlocks a 2nd Bat for super cheap.
It also can sit on objectives, i just throw it on a back field objective and have character protection kick in and hold it all game.
yeah, people need to stop expecting her to perform like she does in the fluff. In-game shes a tarpit for heavy infantry (Obliterators) or a backfield holder. Being 50 is cheaper than most HQs in the game, so her not being as strong as a smash captain doesnt mean anything. I like running mine with a shardnet+impaler, the traitor's embrace and the cult of strife warlord trait hold them in and deal damage by saving.
I know right.
Imagine how ignorant and stupid someone has to be to expect a melee character to actually be worth a damn when it comes to melee.
Well, *a* beastmaster. Because you can only give 1 of them +2Ld and if you have 7+ Cult units in your army you know damn well that you're not spending your 'wild' drugs giving other Beastmasters +1Ld. if anything, you'll be using extra Beastmasters as dumps for the crap drugs no one wants (see above).
Also, what about the many lists that don't run any Beasts/Beastmasters at all? Are you really going to put your hand on your heart and tell me that +2Ld is useful for them?
Burnage wrote: If you've got a Battalion you're already at five units and it's relatively easy to fill in the blanks from there if you want most of your army to be Wych based.
But this is the thing - it's not just about having 7+ units, it's about having 7+ units of which 3 have to suck because they're not allowed any of the good drugs.
Amishprn86 wrote: Succubus is a cheap 50pts HQ that unlocks a 2nd Bat for super cheap.
It also can sit on objectives, i just throw it on a back field objective and have character protection kick in and hold it all game.
yeah, people need to stop expecting her to perform like she does in the fluff. In-game shes a tarpit for heavy infantry (Obliterators) or a backfield holder. Being 50 is cheaper than most HQs in the game, so her not being as strong as a smash captain doesnt mean anything. I like running mine with a shardnet+impaler, the traitor's embrace and the cult of strife warlord trait hold them in and deal damage by saving.
I know right.
Imagine how ignorant and stupid someone has to be to expect a melee character to actually be worth a damn when it comes to melee.
There is a difference in "melee character worth a damn" and "Melee character worth its points"
A Succubus is worth its points in every way, 50pts.. You need to take in account what it is and has Now.. if it was 100-120pts then yeah i would expect it to do more damage.
No matter how badly the designers bugger our units, it seems every other DE player on this forum will crawl over each other to shower them with praise.
We've literally got someone praising a melee unit for its ability to sit on a backfield objective (because it's so utterly worthless in melee).
vipoid wrote: Man, no wonder out codex always sucks.
No matter how badly the designers bugger our units, it seems every other DE player on this forum will crawl over each other to shower them with praise.
We've literally got someone praising a melee unit for its ability to sit on a backfield objective (because it's so utterly worthless in melee).
I give up.
can you relax? its a game. ok the succubus dont satisfy what you expect them to do, but even with multiple people telling you that its a good unit FOR ITS PTS COST, you keep arguing and flinging gak all over the place.
i dont expect a 50 pts unit to kill a 100-200 pts unit by itself, no matter if it could in the fluff. Melee isnt only for killing stuff, in fact, most times i've charged was to deisable a dangerous target by locking it down, not to kill it. 40k isnt team deathmatch, raw damage isnt the only metric you should use when evaluating units.
were not showering her with praise as you said, were saying that it does good for one of the cheapest HQ's in the game.
vipoid wrote: Man, no wonder out codex always sucks.
No matter how badly the designers bugger our units, it seems every other DE player on this forum will crawl over each other to shower them with praise.
We've literally got someone praising a melee unit for its ability to sit on a backfield objective (because it's so utterly worthless in melee).
I give up.
It's almost like other players are treating the Dark Eldar codex as if it were really strong overall and still fully capable of winning tournaments by itself.
vipoid wrote: Man, no wonder out codex always sucks.
No matter how badly the designers bugger our units, it seems every other DE player on this forum will crawl over each other to shower them with praise.
We've literally got someone praising a melee unit for its ability to sit on a backfield objective (because it's so utterly worthless in melee).
I give up.
Go look at my history and see how hard i down lots of parts of our codex. Just b.c we dont agree with you on this 1 point doesnt mean we are talking down the power level of weak units.. you are hyperboling at this point.
Lets see everything i hate, bash, or said as bad in our codex many many times...........
Lack of HQ's /list]
[list]Segregation of subfactions and many units (mixing Wych/kabal/coven)
Cant take some units without other units (Beast/court)
Points imbalances with many units (Hellions, Incubi, etc..)
Missing units for no reason (Trueborn, Bloodbrides, HQ's)
Useless traits for Coven (its clear 1 is best)
Current HQ's pointless and lack luster (Dra/Lelith)
DE special detachment is pointless
Last and most importantly for me: Removal of all flavor to have more stratagems and lack luster gameplay options, Reavers drive by, HoW hits, character options builds, Beast mix squads
But no, having a cheap HQ not deal 12 damage in melee is hating on DE....
vipoid wrote: Man, no wonder out codex always sucks.
No matter how badly the designers bugger our units, it seems every other DE player on this forum will crawl over each other to shower them with praise.
We've literally got someone praising a melee unit for its ability to sit on a backfield objective (because it's so utterly worthless in melee).
I give up.
It's almost like other players are treating the Dark Eldar codex as if it were really strong overall and still fully capable of winning tournaments by itself.
Crazy, I know.
Seriously, it's hard to take anyone seriously when they claim the current codex sucks. I also don't understand why anyone would expect a 50 point character to solo squads or characters that cost double. Welcome to 8th edition, where chaos lords and captains literally can't chew through a 40 point guard squad in a phase either lol. you know what the big difference is? That 50 point succubus will keep the survivors stuck in place and survive while the 90 point capatin/lord will be disengaged and shot off the table unceremoniously. So I'd say we came out ahead. This edition took steps back away from hero hammer and made squads more lethal, I like that more personally, but I can see why someone used to hero hammer might miss it. It is what it is however, and it isn't just a DE thing.
It's also odd hearing folks crap on 3 of the 6 choices for combat drugs. I mean, Jesus, we get combat drugs, power from pain AND obsessions lol. You have to actually think about where you allocate 1 of 3 resources, that's called playing the game. I hate books that make decisions easy. I usually give 1 succubus the +2 movement (with a net) and a beast master the +2 leadership, which are actually great choices. That means you have the +1 ws to dump somewhere. Well, your only getting +1 to hit from PfP on turns 3+ so just toss it on a wych unit thats going on the front line. If your 5 man tarpit unit of +1 WS wyches are still hanging around by turn 3 then you probably shouldn't be bitching because your creaming your opponent lol.
I'll be honest, the most annoying part of combat drugs for me personally is the book keeping.
At the risk of diving into something I may not want to I'd like to preface this by saying I am not a competitive player.
I see both sides of the coin on this issue concerning the succubus. On the one hand she performs nothing like the lithe, deadly masters of the arena that is represented in the lore. She's objectively worse in CC than either of our other two HQ options and using her in this capacity is a list building nightmare (stealing the good drugs from units that benefit more, relic and WL traits a necessity to make her even remotely dangerous in CC, transportation). She simply doesn't feel like the leader or champion of a cult of gladiatorial maniacs who relish the duel and pitting their best and dirtiest tricks against an opponents. On the other hand she is incredibly cheap points wise for an HQ and can serve the purpose of a tarpit model and a cheap addition to make a cult battalion.
What this comes down to for me is that I want her to feel on the table at least a bit like how she comes across in the lore. I think barring a few tournament only players most of us would like our units to behave on the tabletop in a fashion that pays homage to the lore that they represent. I'm in no way saying our codex is bad, it's amazing in so many ways and is certainly a top contender, that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement however. There are certainly units that good use another pass by the rules dev team to make them more appealing choices, Incubi, Hellions, and Cronus immediately come to mind. Our codex is already good but it certainly would benefit from having a few units looked at again to make them viable options that could give us alternatives to list building. Viable variety in list building, this can only be a good thing for us and our opponents right? There's only so often you can field or fight a triple ravage with writ archon babysitting them before it gets stale right?
So while I respect the opinion that for her points a succubus can be built to be a useful addition to our forces as a tarpit or character rules shielded objective holder I simply don't feel this is the most fun or appropriate use of her. I would love for her to get a points bump and receive the rules necessary to have her feel more like the arena champion she is.
On the topic of drugs: I agree the book keeping can be tedious. I would be happy if it was changed to pick 1 drug and it applies to your whole force. Though I suspect we may only ever see +1A or +1S after a change like that. As an alternative perhaps go back to the drugs are random days but have them apply to your whole force but it's rolled on a D3 of +1A, +1S or +1T. Army wide +2Mov could be interesting on a wych cult too. Maybe take it a step further and every turn you roll to see what you get for your force or perhaps you select a drug at beginning of turn but it can't be the drug you had last turn? Just throwing out ideas, I just feel we can come up with a more elegant and balanced combat drugs rule over what we currently have.
Sorry for the long post, never been good at keeping my thoughts concise.
Space marines would be armies of 10 models and at the same time Tyranids would be literally 5 Tyrants, 20 Fex's, 500 gants, 1000 rippers for the same points as those 10 Marines.
Tho on a quick note, Space Marines did have rules at one point, it was Movie Marines (basically you played with 5-10 marines that are equal to Gman)
Never look at lore for power level, just for the role that unit plays
Inevitable_Faith wrote: Really late to reply here but just wanted to clarify that in my talk about wyches above I didn't mention a second succubus to make a battalion because I don't run a second succubus. I do this for a couple reasons:
1) The succubus is insanely disappointing as an HQ, her melee abilities are pitiful and she can't find any good ride without sacrificing the ability for more special weapons on wych squads. That last bit is more of an issue with DE transports as a whole but it still contributes to her issues. As it stands the only even barely mediocre builds for succubi all involve relics spread across different cults so it caps you at one anyways. As a final note why does our supposed melee master HQ have worse base weapons and number of attacks than our other two generic HQ options?
A pretty casual player but my Succubus with the Relic Glaive, 3++, +1 Strength drugs (so S7) and hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's seems to kill an awful lot of things very dead in combat.
Inevitable_Faith wrote: Really late to reply here but just wanted to clarify that in my talk about wyches above I didn't mention a second succubus to make a battalion because I don't run a second succubus. I do this for a couple reasons:
1) The succubus is insanely disappointing as an HQ, her melee abilities are pitiful and she can't find any good ride without sacrificing the ability for more special weapons on wych squads. That last bit is more of an issue with DE transports as a whole but it still contributes to her issues. As it stands the only even barely mediocre builds for succubi all involve relics spread across different cults so it caps you at one anyways. As a final note why does our supposed melee master HQ have worse base weapons and number of attacks than our other two generic HQ options?
A pretty casual player but my Succubus with the Relic Glaive, 3++, +1 Strength drugs (so S7) and hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's seems to kill an awful lot of things very dead in combat.
And what about a Succubus that doesn't have the Blood Glaive Relic?
I can't speak for Vipoid but IMO an HQ should be able to stand on its own. If a Succubus is supposed to be a melee fighter then it shouldn't need specific Relics, Warlord Traits and Drugs just to be functional in that role. Not least because there simply aren't enough of those things to go around. There's only one Blood Glaive (and only one Cult can get it at all), there'll only be one Warlord Trait available and many units will be competing for the best drugs.
Inevitable_Faith wrote: Really late to reply here but just wanted to clarify that in my talk about wyches above I didn't mention a second succubus to make a battalion because I don't run a second succubus. I do this for a couple reasons:
1) The succubus is insanely disappointing as an HQ, her melee abilities are pitiful and she can't find any good ride without sacrificing the ability for more special weapons on wych squads. That last bit is more of an issue with DE transports as a whole but it still contributes to her issues. As it stands the only even barely mediocre builds for succubi all involve relics spread across different cults so it caps you at one anyways. As a final note why does our supposed melee master HQ have worse base weapons and number of attacks than our other two generic HQ options?
A pretty casual player but my Succubus with the Relic Glaive, 3++, +1 Strength drugs (so S7) and hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's seems to kill an awful lot of things very dead in combat.
And what about a Succubus that doesn't have the Blood Glaive Relic?
I can't speak for Vipoid but IMO an HQ should be able to stand on its own. If a Succubus is supposed to be a melee fighter then it shouldn't need specific Relics, Warlord Traits and Drugs just to be functional in that role. Not least because there simply aren't enough of those things to go around. There's only one Blood Glaive (and only one Cult can get it at all), there'll only be one Warlord Trait available and many units will be competing for the best drugs.
except shes clearly not supposed to be a melee fighter that kills stuff, her role is to lock down heavy infantry. just because shes clearly meant to be in close combat doesnt mean she has to be good at killing
Inevitable_Faith wrote: Really late to reply here but just wanted to clarify that in my talk about wyches above I didn't mention a second succubus to make a battalion because I don't run a second succubus. I do this for a couple reasons:
1) The succubus is insanely disappointing as an HQ, her melee abilities are pitiful and she can't find any good ride without sacrificing the ability for more special weapons on wych squads. That last bit is more of an issue with DE transports as a whole but it still contributes to her issues. As it stands the only even barely mediocre builds for succubi all involve relics spread across different cults so it caps you at one anyways. As a final note why does our supposed melee master HQ have worse base weapons and number of attacks than our other two generic HQ options?
A pretty casual player but my Succubus with the Relic Glaive, 3++, +1 Strength drugs (so S7) and hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's seems to kill an awful lot of things very dead in combat.
And what about a Succubus that doesn't have the Blood Glaive Relic?
I can't speak for Vipoid but IMO an HQ should be able to stand on its own. If a Succubus is supposed to be a melee fighter then it shouldn't need specific Relics, Warlord Traits and Drugs just to be functional in that role. Not least because there simply aren't enough of those things to go around. There's only one Blood Glaive (and only one Cult can get it at all), there'll only be one Warlord Trait available and many units will be competing for the best drugs.
You give them a Shardnet & Impaler because they have an entirely respectable combination of damage and utility with it.
The Succubus can stand on its own... as long as you keep in mind that it's a fifty point model. You've got to have lowered expectations compared to virtually every other melee HQ.
The Succubus can stand on its own... as long as you keep in mind that it's a fifty point model. You've got to have lowered expectations compared to virtually every other melee HQ.
Why? I never asked for the bloody thing to be 50pts. I wasn't the one who decided that it should be absolutely worthless at everything and antithetical to its own fluff and role.
Amishprn86 wrote:Um.. nothing on the table feels like the lore.
Space marines would be armies of 10 models and at the same time Tyranids would be literally 5 Tyrants, 20 Fex's, 500 gants, 1000 rippers for the same points as those 10 Marines.
Tho on a quick note, Space Marines did have rules at one point, it was Movie Marines (basically you played with 5-10 marines that are equal to Gman)
Never look at lore for power level, just for the role that unit plays
I apologize for not coming across clear enough in my earlier post. I feel the ideas of tabletop role and tabletop effectiveness can often be conflated in many posts concerning models "playing like the fluff". There is certainly a balance between representing a model on the table as it is represented in the lore and making sure the rules make it fun to both play with and against. If you read a novel with space marine protagonists of course each marine will be shown as the walking gods many assume them to be. Likewise in the path of the Eldar/ Dark Eldar trilogies many of the Eldar characters are shown to perform things far beyond their normal capabilities on the tabletop. This is something that happens in novels to make the characters feel powerful and important and sadly does lead to many people being disappointed by the tabletop effectiveness of said model/unit. There is a balance here and in some cases, as I believe applies in this one, the rules team fails to achieve an appropriate balance between making the model feel right on the table without being overpowered. The lore states that the succubus is a melee fighter/duelist, highly skilled and deadly with a variety of weapons. For rules it would then be reasonable to expect that she could pose a viable threat to many infantry based models on the table using a variety of weapons suited to different styles of combat. What we have instead is a model that doesn't put out enough damage to be worth her (even arguably small points cost) for that purpose. Her most common and effective weapon loadout is instead a utility combo designed to lock down opponents and act as a tarpit to high value targets. Another mentioned tactic is to leave her on the backfield to hold an objective using the gamey character targeting rules to protect her from incoming fire. Neither of these options represent the role laid out in the fluff for this character in any meaningful capacity. Indeed if her weapon options were revisited as well as her core stats (notably her number of attacks, why is it less than an archon?) so as to make her a reasonably dangerous melee threat then wouldn't she portray that role much more accurately and actually get played as the combatant she's supposed to be? I'm not asking for her to be a one-woman wrecking crew, I don't want a brokenly powerful model, I would just like to field her as a melee fighter that could actually get a few kills in the match and feel like the champion of the arena she's supposed to be.
Inevitable_Faith wrote: Really late to reply here but just wanted to clarify that in my talk about wyches above I didn't mention a second succubus to make a battalion because I don't run a second succubus. I do this for a couple reasons:
1) The succubus is insanely disappointing as an HQ, her melee abilities are pitiful and she can't find any good ride without sacrificing the ability for more special weapons on wych squads. That last bit is more of an issue with DE transports as a whole but it still contributes to her issues. As it stands the only even barely mediocre builds for succubi all involve relics spread across different cults so it caps you at one anyways. As a final note why does our supposed melee master HQ have worse base weapons and number of attacks than our other two generic HQ options?
A pretty casual player but my Succubus with the Relic Glaive, 3++, +1 Strength drugs (so S7) and hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's seems to kill an awful lot of things very dead in combat.
And what about a Succubus that doesn't have the Blood Glaive Relic?
I can't speak for Vipoid but IMO an HQ should be able to stand on its own. If a Succubus is supposed to be a melee fighter then it shouldn't need specific Relics, Warlord Traits and Drugs just to be functional in that role. Not least because there simply aren't enough of those things to go around. There's only one Blood Glaive (and only one Cult can get it at all), there'll only be one Warlord Trait available and many units will be competing for the best drugs.
except shes clearly not supposed to be a melee fighter that kills stuff, her role is to lock down heavy infantry. just because shes clearly meant to be in close combat doesnt mean she has to be good at killing
Her role is only to lock down heavy infantry because that's the only thing she can effectively accomplish for her points and with her current weapon options. This role is never once mentioned in the lore or fluff that is intended to influence her rules design. According to her lore entries she absolutely is intended to be quite adept at killing things. Why is it a bad thing to want this? We know from the podcasts and interviews with model designers that the workflow for new models is as follows:
-Designer makes the model
-Narrative writers give the model background and their place in the 40k universe
-Rules team writes rules to represent the model on the tabletop using visual cues from the model itself as well as the narrative entry as inspiration.
In this case the model itself comes stock with an archite glaive and agonizer. You can't even get a shardnet and impaler without buying a different unit box and kit bashing her. Based on the model alone it should be a melee fighter, the lore then backs this up as well elaborating on how deadly of a fighter she is. So why is it that she's absolutely horrendous when using the stock loadout her box comes with? In fact it makes no sense to ever load her out as her model is designed as the agonizer and glaive have no meaningful interactions that make them a desirable weapon combo. If GW was strict here about the "no model=no rules" course and forced us to take our succubi as they are modeled instead of throwing on a shardnet and calling her a cheap speedbump then maybe there'd be more outcry to make her other weapons more viable?
I feel like there's some cross discussion happening here.
Is there some jankiness in the Succubus' rules? Yes, absolutely. If nothing else the standard Archite Glaive has a frankly bizarre stat profile and it's odd that she can be equipped with two melee weapons when that doesn't benefit her in the slightest.
Is she reflective of the fluff? No, not really, barring some very specific builds that take up relics and warlord traits and lock you into certain Cults.
Is she worthless in-game? No. She's a 50 point HQ choice, which is valuable in and of itself for detachment purposes. She's got good utility with No Escape. She can deal some damage. She's fine and useful, even if she's not the best HQ in the game.
Would I love it if we had some kind of Succubus Queen unit that was stronger in combat, or a Reaver Succubus that didn't get forced to footslog or mess up transport options? Yes, absolutely. But even if those other units existed the current Succubus would still plausibly see play thanks solely to how cheap she is and how much utility she brings.
It's easy to focus on how things should be and neglect to think about how you can take advantage of the way things actually are.
I've always agreed that the succubus is effective as a cheap HQ tarpit. And for her cost yeah you can fill cheap battalions for CP farm. I can agree with these statements. I'm not blind to her uses as you are not blind to the discrepancy between her lore and her rules Burnage.
As a mostly casual/narrative player however the Succubus fails to be fun for me to play. She doesn't fulfill her role to a satisfactory level and having to run her as a tarpit or battery just doesn't feel satisfying. In a game that is supposed to be fun first and foremost she falls short of the mark to achieve that. Other elements of the Drukhari codex certainly deliver in spades in both theme and rules to make our force as a whole a great joy to play, the succubus is just one of a few small blemishes on that.
I do give GW a lot of leeway, probably a lot more than I should most days but on this I feel they dropped the ball and should do better.
I do agree with you though Burnage having a Reaver or Hellion succubus would be a ton of fun and a welcome addition to our forces. I don't agree with a Succubus queen option though, I think the succubus herself should be our queen. Bump up her points, make her fun to play as a deadly assault unit and make her the Succubus she should have always been. If we want to keep a cheap battery succubus we have now then instead make a new unit under the succubus, pull the Syren leader from the old bloodbride unit and make her a mini HQ.
Amishprn86 wrote: I'd rather have Wings, Reaver, Skyboard HQ options for Archon/Succubus.
yeah, that way we would still have access to a cheap HQ while also having the option to make them better.
was there a difference between the wings, jetbike and skyboard?
Because being able to give either deepstrike (wings), hit and run (skyboard) or bigger advance (jetbike) would be pretty cool
Wings gives DS, the cheaper options
Skyboard gives 2 Splinter rifles and Hit and Run (Fallback and charge)
Reavers gives best movement, +1 toughness, 1 Splinter Rifle
Each one would be used for different purpose, Wings if you want to DS, Reaver if you want a tougher faster melee unit, Skyboard for melee shenanigans (like a Succubus with a 3++ WL/Relic, charges and fallbacks/Charges again to tie up units)
Amishprn86 wrote: I'd rather have Wings, Reaver, Skyboard HQ options for Archon/Succubus.
yeah, that way we would still have access to a cheap HQ while also having the option to make them better.
was there a difference between the wings, jetbike and skyboard?
Because being able to give either deepstrike (wings), hit and run (skyboard) or bigger advance (jetbike) would be pretty cool
Wings gives DS, the cheaper options
Skyboard gives 2 Splinter rifles and Hit and Run (Fallback and charge)
Reavers gives best movement, +1 toughness, 1 Splinter Rifle
Each one would be used for different purpose, Wings if you want to DS, Reaver if you want a tougher faster melee unit, Skyboard for melee shenanigans (like a Succubus with a 3++ WL/Relic, charges and fallbacks/Charges again to tie up units)
yeah, all these options are pretty interesting. kitbashing these options would be pretty cool. Hopefully in the future we get these options back
Amishprn86 wrote: I'd rather have Wings, Reaver, Skyboard HQ options for Archon/Succubus.
yeah, that way we would still have access to a cheap HQ while also having the option to make them better.
was there a difference between the wings, jetbike and skyboard?
Because being able to give either deepstrike (wings), hit and run (skyboard) or bigger advance (jetbike) would be pretty cool
Wings gives DS, the cheaper options
Skyboard gives 2 Splinter rifles and Hit and Run (Fallback and charge)
Reavers gives best movement, +1 toughness, 1 Splinter Rifle
Each one would be used for different purpose, Wings if you want to DS, Reaver if you want a tougher faster melee unit, Skyboard for melee shenanigans (like a Succubus with a 3++ WL/Relic, charges and fallbacks/Charges again to tie up units)
yeah, all these options are pretty interesting. kitbashing these options would be pretty cool. Hopefully in the future we get these options back
Possibly worth pointing out that Scourge wings were never a wargear option for our HQs. Skyboards and Reaver jetbikes were, though, once upon a time. Even Haemonculi could take them!
I`ve mentioned before that since Bloodbrides had been relegated to index only we could take the old Syren of that unit and covert them to be a mini Cult HQ. Likewise we could rob the Dracon from the trueborn to be a mini Archon HQ as a cheaper alternative. Partially gives us back some old units we had and stays well within the fluff.
I`d love to see Hellion Skyboard and Reaver jetbike Archons and Succubi. Would certainly help with our HQ transportation issues.
Everyone runs 3 Ravagers with 3 DC's each, its basically an auto include in anything comp.
Ravagers on the other hand are a hit or miss for many people, in ITC the are not very popular for how ITC plays, but in ETC or missions that has maelstrom, 1 reaper is nice to have IMO, they are 25pts more than a Ravager for a less damage, but they can be very good vs anything that relays on speed (they cannot advance id it deals damage).
Detachment Attribute
Kabal of the Black Heart
Prizes from the Dark City (1 Relic) [-1CP]
HQ Archon [4 PL, 96pts]
Selections: Blaster, Huskblade, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Warlord (Archon, Writ of the Living Muse
Archon [4 PL, 96pts]
Selections: Blaster, Huskblade, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, The Helm of Spite
Troops
Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 47pts]
3x Kabalite Warrior
Kabalite Warrior with special weapon
Selections: Blaster
Sybarite
Selections: Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 47pts]
3x Kabalite Warrior
Kabalite Warrior with special weapon
Selections: Blaster
Sybarite
Selections: Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 47pts]
3x Kabalite Warrior
Kabalite Warrior with special weapon
Selections: Blaster
Sybarite
Selections: Splinter Rifle
Fast Attack
Scourges [5 PL, 128pts]
Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon
Selections: Blaster
Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon
Selections: Blaster
Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon
Selections: Blaster
Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon
Selections: Blaster
Solarite
Selections: Shardcarbine
Heavy Support
Ravager [7 PL, 125pts]
Selections: Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon
Elfric wrote: Has anyone ever run Triple Ravager and Triple Reaper in a list. Seems like that would be ridiculous fire power
Yeah... that's what I'm tinkering with.
But that list need some forward aggressive threats to take the heat off of the Ravagers/Reapers a bit.
I'm trying to incorporate a Grot bomb and Taloi in my list with 3x Ravagers and 3x Reapers.
I'll be trying it out in the next few weeks and I'll chime in what I think about the reapers. I think Drukhari is in a good place because I'm seeing more IK lists, more Daemon Engine lists and now, Chaos will be getting their own flavor of IK.
Drukhari can lay out some darklight and Haywire spam easily.
I'm honestly wondering what to do with my pure dark eldar army. The competitive lists are just so bog standard and dull. Take 3 ravagers w/ dissies, 3 razorwings, a bunch of grotesques and a few talos.
Here's a list i want to try:
Spoiler:
Kabal of the Obsidian Rose-+6" guns
archon (warlord; hatred eternal-RR wounds, helm of spite)
-blaster
-huskblade
archon
-blaster
-huskblade
warriors x20
-dark lance x2
warriors x20
-dark lance x2
warriors x20
-dark lance x2
warriors x20
-dark lance x2
warriors x20
-dark lance x2
warriors x20
-dark lance x2
ravager
-dissie x3
ravager
-dissie x3
ravager
-dissie x3
scourge x6
-dark lance x4
scourge x6
-dark lance x4
scourge x6
-dark lance x4
-----------
1977 pts and 8 CP
------------
I'm thinking about getting rid of the scourge for more durable anti-tank/anti-monster or just throwing in some shredderborn or something since it's 450+ pts with all 3 total with fairly fragile units and they'll have a target on their heads too. The general idea of this list is a crap ton of bodies with archon boosting said hordes of gun-line warriors and possibly ravagers. The warriors alone have 12 dark lances on 120 bodies and altogether are less than 1k pts. It's an unusual list i know and it'll take me a while to get all these warriors since many people just get few troops.
I realize this could be an expensive and bad idea but considering how fragile we are i just figured why not boost numbers of bodies instead of elite fragile stuff that accomplishes little and dies really fast. I'll be able to shoot from long range where we won't have as many shots coming our way and even if you kill 20 warriors at long range a turn i still have the other 100 and still have 10 dark lances left on em. If you get into close range great! My boys would be more than happy to hit you with a crap ton of poison shots. The +6" should also help since all the ravagers and dark lances will have 42" range and the poison weapons will have 30" range.
If i face a long range infantry army i could be in trouble but i might still be ok. Anyway would be nice to try out at some point. I might tweak it but i imagine after playing this list a bit it might get boring and really stagnant and static for a dark eldar army.
As the list currently stands it's 24 dark lances and 27 dissie shots with 2 archon's blasters.
My experience with Dark Lance Scourges is that they're very much not good, compared to other heavy weapons platforms in both our own Codex and others. No way to buff them with rerolls to hit or wound leaves their shooting weak, no Obsessions, -1 to hit when moving, only T3... I used to run them a lot, but they're really not in a great spot and swapping them out for Razorwings would probably be considerably more effective.
I'd swap them for mandrakes personally. The list needs some scalpel unit that can drop where you need it and change the odds and that's the best unit for it. They can also be used to drop in on flanks or back fields and/or can counter assault/deter would be assaulters threatening your lines.
So i finally decided to delve more into the covens (had to find some easy/ cheap / decent looking conversion method for grotesques).
Ive never fielded more than a spearhead/patrol of coven before and only with wracks/talos.
How should i use the grotesques? do i just run them down the map or should i put them in a raider and bring them in quickly? are they made to kill or to hold objectives?
1 large blob of 6-10 with Urien next to them, they are amazing. Just walk them, no need to put them in vehicles. Oh dont hold objectives with them, run them right at the enemy as fast as you can.
Amishprn86 wrote: 1 large blob of 6-10 with Urien next to them, they are amazing. Just walk them, no need to put them in vehicles. Oh dont hold objectives with them, run them right at the enemy as fast as you can.
alright, so advance with them aggresively? and use the wracks as objective holders? i can always teleport them later in the game if i need to.
Are coven units tanky enough to be able to run up to things like imperial knights? if not, what should i use to round off that weakness? most games that i face knights i feel like i cant do a thing to them so i end up ignoring them and trying to play for the objectives. I feel that way no matter what combination of cult/coven/kabal i take. (I probably was too pampered by playing admech since they have tons of ways to blow up tanks)
Yeah 5man wracks and kabals hold points, Grots and Talos charge up. They are tough enough, sure just like everything is they are focus they sill take lots of damage, but they are better running than in Raiders, for the points they are tougher than a raider, same points, but tougher (remember 2 raiders are 160pts thats 4 and a half Grots, so its 10 walking vs 6 in vehicles, the 10 will for sure be better) b.c you took 4 more, now if they died before they get there its the same as 2 raiders dying, no big deal, BUT if those 4 survive they are going to destroy w/e they get to, especially with the stratagem to re-roll wounds (With Urien near they are Str6 and T6)
PS: Raiders T5, 5++, Grots, T6, 4++ 10pts cheaper (tho they move 1/2 the speed).
If you are having problems with Knight, and i mean serious problem, take Haywire. Talos, Scourges, even harlequins Skyweavers. If its 1 knight, just kill everything else and take objectives.
I've tried haywire scourge but they felt underwhelming. i Did try a harlequin vanguard with 6 bikes and it felt brutal and i will surely run it again, the problem i have is that we run 1750 pts games so getting a coven battalion + harlequin vanguard means i pretty much have no room for anything else.
flamingkillamajig wrote: I'm honestly wondering what to do with my pure dark eldar army. The competitive lists are just so bog standard and dull. Take 3 ravagers w/ dissies, 3 razorwings, a bunch of grotesques and a few talos.
You don't have to play it that way. I have no planes and no Ravagers. I win, I am undeafeated in my last 2 tournaments. Small to be sure but all my opponents were doing their best to win.
I run 3 detachments Kabal for fire power, Coven for tough hard hitting second wave, and Cult of speed to freak them the feth out.
It works, its fun, and it doesn't play like every other list.
Your 120 warrior army will be different too, are you taking max blasters aswell? Or just dark lances?
flamingkillamajig wrote: I'm honestly wondering what to do with my pure dark eldar army. The competitive lists are just so bog standard and dull. Take 3 ravagers w/ dissies, 3 razorwings, a bunch of grotesques and a few talos.
You don't have to play it that way. I have no planes and no Ravagers. I win, I am undeafeated in my last 2 tournaments. Small to be sure but all my opponents were doing their best to win.
I run 3 detachments Kabal for fire power, Coven for tough hard hitting second wave, and Cult of speed to freak them the feth out.
It works, its fun, and it doesn't play like every other list.
Your 120 warrior army will be different too, are you taking max blasters aswell? Or just dark lances?
yeah, your dont have to play the top competitive lists to win games. I love running some cults in my lists, reavers in particular.
Pick a unit you like and build a list around it instead of picking the best units in the codex and then filling it with whatever you like.
Ive had tons of fun playing the yncarne, big blobs of razorwing flocks, infantry spam (either wyches or kabalites).
I personally dont find the flyers that impressive (which is a shame since i like their look so much), i'd much rather have total control on my positioning in most games. I very rarely take triple ravagers lists
winning is a skill thing 60%. Lists are the toolbag. I think the internet gets in peoples heads and convinces them otherwise.
The funnest thing in this game for me these days is trying to make a different thing work. I build around the oddity and see what I can pull off.
I havent used planes in a long time in any force. Dark Eldar have such an odd codex that discourages monobuilds that I am surprised somewhat at the frequency that I hear this about it though.
Jancoran wrote: winning is a skill thing 60%. Lists are the toolbag. I think the internet gets in peoples heads and convinces them otherwise.
The funnest thing in this game for me these days is trying to make a different thing work. I build around the oddity and see what I can pull off.
I havent used planes in a long time in any force. Dark Eldar have such an odd codex that discourages monobuilds that I am surprised somewhat at the frequency that I hear this about it though.
Honestly, if the raiding party rule made 3 patrols count as a single battalion it would make listbuilding with drukhari much more fun. I love the feel of the different obsession teaming up for a realspace raid, the problem is that youre often tight on points because you have to fill out detachments or sacrifice CPs.
But yes, bringing fun units makes for awesome games. A splash of multiple different units is the best.
wuestenfux wrote: Stupid question: But what are the best proxies for Grotesques? None, Ironguts, or maybe the new (warcry babies) Iron Golems?
Crypt Horrors with Talos bits.
I have 12 made like this and another 10 made from legion of everblight warpsears. I actually like the warspears much more and they are cheaper, but it's a much easier conversion using crypt horrors. If you can sculpt fairly well I would consider the warspears though, they actually mach the other coven aesthetic much better.
After the question about proxies for Grotesques, how many is too many in an army.
I don't want to annoy the opponent. I guess 6 are sufficient, aren't they?
flamingkillamajig wrote: I'm honestly wondering what to do with my pure dark eldar army. The competitive lists are just so bog standard and dull. Take 3 ravagers w/ dissies, 3 razorwings, a bunch of grotesques and a few talos.
You don't have to play it that way. I have no planes and no Ravagers. I win, I am undeafeated in my last 2 tournaments. Small to be sure but all my opponents were doing their best to win.
I run 3 detachments Kabal for fire power, Coven for tough hard hitting second wave, and Cult of speed to freak them the feth out.
It works, its fun, and it doesn't play like every other list.
Your 120 warrior army will be different too, are you taking max blasters aswell? Or just dark lances?
Just dark lances since it's cheaper. I could run some blasters if the opponent closes but i feel like blasters would be a huge point sink. It might work out given the size of the warrior squads but it'd take up all the remaining points i could spend and there's a good chance if i face certain armies it'd do nothing at all since lots of big units like to hide in the background shooting away.
The Cult has all the boats in it. 2 raiders 2 venoms.
Running the coven as a patrol lets me put all 3 talos in 1 unit.
The Cult looks very point intense.
I'd spend more points for the Kabal: Ravagers and flyers.
I have a full unit of Bikes. With 4 blasters in it. That is over 300 points.
Well, it can be fast and deadly.
I guess that I would spend some points on Scourges instead.
Deep striking with 4 blasters and another squad with haywires. Ouch!
The Cult has all the boats in it. 2 raiders 2 venoms.
Running the coven as a patrol lets me put all 3 talos in 1 unit.
The Cult looks very point intense.
I'd spend more points for the Kabal: Ravagers and flyers.
I have a full unit of Bikes. With 4 blasters in it. That is over 300 points.
Well, it can be fast and deadly.
I guess that I would spend some points on Scourges instead.
Deep striking with 4 blasters and another squad with haywires. Ouch!
You do you but in my experience scourges just die. Now my bikes are dead on turn 2 as well but they shield my entire army from all, ALL the enemy fire power. People don't like it when you move 26 inches, blow something up with your blasters, and then assult into their special snowflake.
After that my bikes get a lot of attention and my talos and Grotesques are safe.
You do you but in my experience scourges just die. Now my bikes are dead on turn 2 as well but they shield my entire army from all, ALL the enemy fire power. People don't like it when you move 26 inches, blow something up with your blasters, and then assult into their special snowflake.
After that my bikes get a lot of attention and my talos and Grotesques are safe.
In fact, the Reavers are dangerous and can disrupt enemy plans as they are high on the enemy target priority schedule.
If they are targeted in turn 1, the rest of the army can advance or can get into position unhindered.
Hey Drukhari players. I need to help my friend to prepare for a big ETC tourney and I'm his last practice opponent.
I play:
Red corsairs
Lord disco
Jump sorcerer with death hex and warp time
3x 5man chaos marines
Death guard
Termie sorcerer with miasma and blades
10x cultists
7x BL termies with 1 flail
2x bloat-drones with spitters
Chaos knights
Desecrator with ignore to hit modifiers
2x autocannon wardogs
I need to give him the hardest times, but his list looks terrifying. Any pointers other than play the mission?
His list:
Drukhari airwing
2x razorwing jetfighter with dizzy cannons
Voidraven with scythes
Drukhari batallion (kabal of black heart)
2x Archon
3x 5man kabalite warriors with splinter rifles
3x Ravagers with dizzy cannons
Harlie vanguard
Shadowseer
2x death jester (one with curtainfall)
Solitaire with caress and kiss
2x 6man skyweavers with haywire and glaives
Last time I saw his list in action against IK he just soaked the knights with mortal wounds. His speed is also a hard counter for my list, but would appreciate any pointers from other Drukhari players how to give him a good practice.
What pointers? Its a solid list and he seems so far to be be playing it fine from what little information you gave. Can't really give helpful information when its so little to go on.
Honestly? Take out the knight, at this point in the game 1 knight isnt enough it seems, either do 3 or do none. How him try that a couple times. If he really wants the knight, then needs needs another large threat unit (termies are no threat, the are a DS shock unit), maybe 1-2 more Lord Disc's or something that can take pressure off the 1 knight.
....I'm the chaos opponent, fielding the above chaos list. I was asking if there are some weaknesses in his list to exploit or any points you would fear the most. I'm afraid of his drukhari list and I don't want the game be over before end of T2. That won't help him to prepare for the tournament.
(Is my english so bad that I couldn't make my point?)
Hey, thinking of starting a new DE army since it’s been a few editions since I had some, was wondering what a decent 1k list would look like using units that I like but before I go buy and trade for stuff I want to know if I can fit it all into 1k. Things I’m thinking on using are archeons and warriors to fill a battalion followed up with a coven detachment for urien and some talos. I would also like to add hellions for some speed as I have always loved the models. Any suggestions would be great. I’m big into infantry based lists and what not so that is sort of what I am aiming for. Would I be able to fit that in 1k decent enough? I don’t have the codex, only the index at this time. Thanks!
Archon and kabs are a staple of most DE lists and are really cheap so yeah that'll fit in easy. You can take a spearhead of urine and 3 taloi and that will be solid. Sadly the Hellions are hard to fit in for a couple reasons:
1) You'd have to take them in a third detachment forcing you to take a Succubus and minimum 3 units of hellions to make a outrider or a unit of wyches to make a patrol. This'll add stress to the distribution of your points and take away points you could be using on Ravagers, razorwing jetfighters or generally fleshing out your existing coven and kabal detachments.
2) This is the important one. Sadly Hellions just really aren't good right now. They don't do anything that other units in our army can't do better and they die to a stiff breeze and unless you spend CP can't use deep strike to protect them for a drop strike.
I really wanted to use Hellions even in my casual play group but sadly they weren't worth the points even in casual play. Shame since I agree they are beautiful models.
So to take wych units you need a separate detachment now? Huh weird. Anyhow thanks for the response, little bummed about the hellions. I will probably still get some just to look good on the shelf till GW gives back the hellion HQ and vect lol.
Would it be worth it to make the detachments Ynnari? Seems like how the new WD index rules are they heavily favor fighting in melee. I think when I want to take a list to 2k I’ll add some harlies and keep focus on a footdar list.
Amishprn86 wrote: Its bc of the Keyword system. We are basically 3 armies in 1 now. Think of Wych, Kabal, and Coven more like SM chapters.
Ok that makes sense, fluffy. Still kind of a let down since you then have to take all the detachments to use what ya want. So reading up on it and having the rule where you get more cp for using patrol detachments, do you think that would be the way to go at 1k? Seems like you could build up a lot of good cp that way.
Amishprn86 wrote: Its bc of the Keyword system. We are basically 3 armies in 1 now. Think of Wych, Kabal, and Coven more like SM chapters.
Ok that makes sense, fluffy. Still kind of a let down since you then have to take all the detachments to use what ya want. So reading up on it and having the rule where you get more cp for using patrol detachments, do you think that would be the way to go at 1k? Seems like you could build up a lot of good cp that way.
in lower pts games it can be decent, especially if you get a good roll for Diabolical soothsayer, getting 8CP is probably what most armies will get on average at 1k pts (1 battalion).
It also depends on what level of competitiveness you will be facing. in a meta where people are slinging game changing stratagems left and right, you might want to get more CPs for more Agents of vect for example.
That’s a good point, I plan for only a 1k army to start mainly cause we play a lot of teams here and I can see where agent of vect would be a really good tool in that environment.
I use the three patrol thing but it was sadly made nearly obsolete a week after our codex came out with the bump of battalions getting 5 cp. It's a way to run the whole army without having to double up on our depressing HQ choices and since each faction in our army needs a different detachment running multiple battalions means we get stuck with too many redundant HQ units on the table. For 1000 pts the three patrols should be ok, going above that you may want to look at some of the other more competitive options to get CP.
Even at 1k I'd prefer to run a Battalion and one or two specialist detachments over the Raiding Force. It's definitely more feasible at smaller point games, but once you hit 1500 there's virtually no point in running it.
It's also worth looking at the Ynnari, because one of their bigger advantages for Drukhari currently is that they enable you to run Kabal and Cult units in the same detachment without penalty.
Huh so Ynnari skip the separate detachment huh, I like that, plus I have always like those three models. Maybe that is the route I should go, just a heavy DE Ynnari build. I’ll need to read up on them some more.
After thinking on it more, yeah patrol detachments won’t gain me much more at 1k.
Hey so some hours ago I played against custodes and I got owned. I think the only forge world model he had was the under-priced custodes hover tank (probably a bit more points than a dark lance ravager). My issue is what do I do with dark eldar against them? Supposedly his termies were 4 wounds each.
I feel like my grotesques would’ve been a good counter to custodes if I DS them in but then I’d have to wait until turn 2 and I went 2nd. I’m in a love-hate situation with shredder-born in venoms because I don’t know that they kill enough for their return cost in points before they inevitably bite the dust. The void ravens did nothing which is fairly normal so I should either change their weapons or replace them. Also as per usual my anti-tank often leaves something to be desired.
Anyway when I get more spending money I will probably just spam inexpensive units like basic troops and possibly some dark lances on warriors.
So I made a new list for dark eldar. Basically obsidian rose battalion (may change to flayed skull), red grief battalion and coven of 12 patrol. I have 10 grotesques, two units of 12 reavers with 4 blasters and 4 grav talons per unit (24 bikes total) and 3 dissie ravagers. Everything else is troops and hq. The idea is to use all the T5 reavers to kill big stuff or secure objectives turn 1 and then DS the grots and haemonculus turn 2 and really put the hurt on a battle line or monsters with all those ap -1 flesh gauntlets for inv. save monsters and cleavers for infantry and everything else combined with the reroll wounds stratagem. Dissie ravagers will go against inv. save monsters and vehicles or infantry depending on what I need to fight off most.
I'd normally recommend only taking one big unit of Reavers at most. You're not going to be able to make both of them T5 and they're not good enough to justify spending over 600 points on them.
I also think Blasters aren't worth equipping them with, but YMMV on that.
I agree that blasters aren’t good enough (I tend to prefer dark lance or dissies) and reavers are over-priced but I feel like shredderborn in venoms cost too much as well and don’t kill enough before they inevitably die just like all mounted trueborn. The reavers have a dual role to shoot blasters and/or tie something up and are tough enough to take shots and not go down as fast as blaster-born in a venom esp. to anti-tank fire.
As far as toughness goes I have 2 succubus and 3 min. sized wych squads with the 2 big reaver units so both reaver units get +1 toughness and give me a 2nd battalion.
I agree reavers in general aren’t the best choice but this is probably the best list I can make right now. At most it will cost me 75 usd if I don’t proxy. The other list might cost 150 usd for the warrior spam alone and is sort of a boring gun-line.
PLAYER: Sirus Chappell PLAYER TOURNEY KEEPER PROFILE: Sirus Chappell, 1223
COUNTRY: Croatia ARMY FACTION: Drukhari TOTAL COMMAND POINTS: 13 TOTAL ARMY POWER LEVEL: 116 TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 1999 TOTAL KILL POINTS: 20 ARMY FACTIONS USED: Drukhari TOTAL REINFORCEMENT POINTS: Not applicable CARDS REMOVED: 66 Priority Order Received +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
==Battalion Detachment== Drukhari, Kabal of the Black Heart [1125 pts] [63 PL] [5 CP]
+Player 3 + TEAM: Czech Republic + PLAYER: Tomas ‘Torapu’ Kulic + PLAYER TOURNEYKEEPER PROFILE: Tomas Kulic 5249 + ARMY FACTION: Aeldari + TOTAL COMMAND POINTS: 7 (14-1(Alliance of Agony) –3 (Prizes from the Dark City) -3 (Enigmas of the Black Library)) + TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 2000 pts + KILL POINTS: 25 + ARMY FACTIONS USED: Harlequins, Drukhari + TOTAL REINFORCEMENT POINTS: Not Applicable +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ==
Battalion Detachement== Drukhari – Kabal of the Black Heart [1318pts] +5 CP == Alliance of Agony== -1cp == Prizes from the Dark City== -3 cp
+ PLAYER: Thomas Donslund + PLAYER TOURNEYKEEPER PROFILE NR: 272 + ARMY FACTION: Craftworld Eldar + TOTAL COMMAND POINTS: 10 + TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 1997pts + ARMY FACTIONS USED: Craftworld Eldar, Drukhari + KILL POINTS: 16 + TOTAL REINFORCEMENT POINTS: 3 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ==
<CRAFTWORLD ELDAR – ALAITOC> Air Wing Detachment == +1CP, 803pts
COUNTRY: England PLAYER: ANTHONY CHEW TOURNEY KEEPER PROFILE: 1421 ARMY FACTION: Craftworld Eldar & Drukhari COMMAND POINTS: 10 ARMY POINTS: 1999 KILL POINTS: 15 REINFORCEMENT POINTS: Not Applicable ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ == <CRAFTWORLD ELDAR – ALAITOC> Air Wing Detachment == +1CP [803pts]
Team: Finland Player: Eetu Peltola Player tourneykeeper profile nr. 1762 Factions used: Drukhari Command Points:10 Army Points: 2000 Kill Points: 24 Reinforcement Points: 0 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ==<Drukhari – Kabal of the Black Heart> Air Wing== +1CP, 735pts
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: I think I'm most curious about the Venom-spam list where the only meaningful anti-vehicle weapons are from the 3 Ravagers.
I can see the logic. We're honestly not that good at destroying vehicles after the Doom/Jinx nerf, so may as well lean hard into killing other stuff and focusing on board control.
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: I think I'm most curious about the Venom-spam list where the only meaningful anti-vehicle weapons are from the 3 Ravagers.
I can see the logic. We're honestly not that good at destroying vehicles after the Doom/Jinx nerf, so may as well lean hard into killing other stuff and focusing on board control.
In the ETC format, the list can be effectively used vs. specific enemy lists without many tanks.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Team: Russia + Player 1 [captain]: Alexander “LazioForza” Kondakov + Player Tourneykeeper ID: 1561 + Army Name: Chodź na drugą stronę. Tam będzie lepszy widok. + Total Command Points: 18 + Total Army Points: 2000 pts + Total Kill Points: 19 + Army Factions Used: Harlequins, Drukhari + Total Reinforcement Points: 0 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ == Battalion Detachment == Harlequins – Frozen Stars [953 pts] + 5 CP
Hey guys, I just recently bought a lot of Dark eldar stuff on sprue from a friend (Both planes, 20 Hellions, 4 Venoms, 3 raiders, 1 ravager, gak tons of kabals and wychs, all the characters, wracks etc). I am just wondering 2 things before i start building the army.
1) Are Ravagers viable or are there better anti-tank units i could bring/use e.g. Talos, Planes etc
2) Is there anyway to convert a Raider into a Ravager? I noticed that the only difference between the kits are that the ravager has side guns and a gun rack in the middle compared to the Raiders side grills to lets peeps hold on.
Well, Ravagers are mandatory in competitive Drukhari lists.
See the lists from the ETC event that I've posted.
They are usually equipped with 3 disintegrators each.
You can convert a Raider to a Ravager just by adding to 2 disintegrator cannons at the right places.
I'm currently wondering if I should switch out dark lance spam warriors with blaster spam warrior blobs. It's about the same price as the dark lances but maybe 100 pts more and it's 24 blasters at 24" rather than 12 dark lances at 42" (obsidian rose). I'd have to move forward but it could approach some halfway decent anti-tank at that point. Of course 8th is the edition of always needing more anti-tank fire. It'd be nice just to bog the enemy down in combat or something but that might not always work and our melee is pretty pathetic outside of fighting infantry. Seriously melee that does more than one damage and cuts through some armor is pretty tough. Same goes for poisoned attacks with armor piercing or multiple damage. You'd think the dark eldar figured a way to spit out more poison, have that poison do more damage or pierce any bit of armor but nope.
Well, I'll try the following list next time. Thoughts?
Spoiler:
New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [110 PL, 2,001pts]
Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [62 PL, 1,147pts]
No Force Org Slot
Detachment Attribute
Kabal of the Black Heart
HQ Archon [4 PL, 86pts]
Selections: Blast Pistol, Huskblade
Archon [4 PL, 76pts]
Selections: Huskblade, Splinter pistol, Warlord (Archon)
Writ of the Living Muse
Troops
Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 47pts]
3x Kabalite Warrior
Kabalite Warrior with special weapon
Selections: Blaster
Sybarite
Selections: Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 47pts]
3x Kabalite Warrior
Kabalite Warrior with special weapon
Selections: Blaster
Sybarite
Selections: Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 47pts]
3x Kabalite Warrior
Kabalite Warrior with special weapon
Selections: Blaster
Sybarite
Selections: Splinter Rifle
Fast Attack
Scourges [5 PL, 92pts]
Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon
Selections: Haywire blaster
Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon
Selections: Haywire blaster
Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon
Selections: Haywire blaster
Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon
Selections: Haywire blaster
Solarite
Selections: Shardcarbine
Scourges [5 PL, 92pts]
Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon
Selections: Shredder
Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon
Selections: Shredder
Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon
Selections: Shredder
Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon
Selections: Shredder
Solarite
Selections: Shardcarbine
Scourges [5 PL, 60pts]
4x Scourge
Solarite
Selections: Shardcarbine
I tried Coven of 12 for the first time against someone and it was against a guard player. Honestly i'm sort of impressed (only 2 died and one suffered 2 wounds from a leman russ blowing up). He had a lot of leman russ tanks but the extra -1 ap cut through more tanks esp. on turn 3 when they hit on 2+ in melee. I would've killed 3 tanks in 2 turns with the grotesques but he managed to have one wound left on one. To be fair the tanks were all probably about half health when I fought em but cadia forcing all its tanks to stand still to shoot more forces guard to make decisions and the strength 5 and ap -3 with cleavers for coven of 12 cuts through a lot of armor. T5 or even T6 with haemonculus just makes them super hard to kill too even with demolishers. Anyway I think I might prefer the -1 AP vs the 4+ inv. save for grotesques because they can tank hits well anyway and out of DS they can get in pretty fast regardless of where the enemy is (esp. if your shredderborn are killing the meaty guardsmen to open up space for grotesque charges into tanks).
It wasn't a massive victory for my dark eldar today but if it kept going he'd have probably lost everything he had left. As it was he only had maybe one squad of guardsmen at the end of turn three, 4 or 5 leman russ (2 of which were at one wound remaining each) and maybe a couple characters. I killed 2 vet squads with shotguns, 2 chimera, 2 leman russ and almost all his guardsmen with autocannons.
The shredderborn in venoms lived way longer than they should have and after he popped the venoms I used LoS blocking terrain to keep them alive (honestly his lanes of fire weren't the best). His leaders also barely hurt them so I just retreated them away and killed his leaders with other units. I was rather surprised he avoided shooting them somewhat.
Anyway he went first even though we traded off deploying units so had I gone first i'd have probably had more guns brought to bear on him quicker.
Hey guys my friend plays DE and I play marines. We play pretty casually with friendly competition. But I kinda crushed him the past 2 games with marines (once pre and once post new codex). He's not really putting much thought into his lists, he slaps upgrades on everything, like blast pistols on sybarites, Dark lances on scourges and deep strikes them in when blasters are an option.
What are some tips I could give him? Such as objective campers for DE, ways to build an HQ and such.
fraser1191 wrote: Hey guys my friend plays DE and I play marines. We play pretty casually with friendly competition. But I kinda crushed him the past 2 games with marines (once pre and once post new codex). He's not really putting much thought into his lists, he slaps upgrades on everything, like blast pistols on sybarites, Dark lances on scourges and deep strikes them in when blasters are an option.
What are some tips I could give him? Such as objective campers for DE, ways to build an HQ and such.
Thanks in advance
Please do some research here in this thread.
There are lots of competitive army lists above.
fraser1191 wrote: Hey guys my friend plays DE and I play marines. We play pretty casually with friendly competition. But I kinda crushed him the past 2 games with marines (once pre and once post new codex). He's not really putting much thought into his lists, he slaps upgrades on everything, like blast pistols on sybarites, Dark lances on scourges and deep strikes them in when blasters are an option.
What are some tips I could give him? Such as objective campers for DE, ways to build an HQ and such.
Thanks in advance
I used to try to love scourge. They had a use in 7th or earlier maybe when a unit of heat lance scourge in a 5 man squad could pop a tank. Right now however even with dark lances it's just not worth it. They're too squishy and armor piercing being what it is now even at long range they can die pretty quickly.
My suggestion is either of 2 things: go cheap and horde or go super tough and slightly expensive. I mean with my grotesques you get a unit of 10 for 350 pts and a haemonculus to boost them to toughness 6. If you go Prophets of flesh they get a 4+ inv. save and they are so durable they tend to take hits and keep on coming. I only am taking coven of 12 because flesh gauntlets need that extra -1 ap vs some elite marine units or custodes and grotesques even with a 5+ inv. save are pretty durable. A flat 4+ inv. save isn't something to take lightly because right now there isn't much that could spam that many mortal wounds or even normal wounds on a t6 and 4 wound dude. If you take 20 and DS that'd probably be overkill.
I don't have much experience with wych cults but I think the general consensus is that wyches are good but the hellions are over-priced and fragile and reavers are expensive.
Dark eldar melee also tends to have poor armor penetration and doesn't do much damage so usually it's best against infantry (as if we don't have enough anti-infantry weapons and not enough anti-tank or anti-monster). Poison is fairly similar as that it's mostly single damage per attack or shot and poor armor penetration. Don't let it fool you into thinking it's amazing vs monsters because monsters and tough infantry have more wounds now. I've never used talos but some say good things. Sadly cronos are never good since I got back into 40k in 7th. Cronos boosts just aren't good enough. Almost all worthwhile shooting is in the kabal sub-group. I suppose talos and reavers can have worthy weapons but talos aren't the best shots and reavers are expensive.
-------
I suppose that might be semi competitive. I'm not great but I do well enough. It helps not to be poor. I'm trying to get a horde of warriors going where I start out with 120 warriors armed with 24 blasters total. I want to take obsidian rose so I get 24" range blasters and since they are assault weapons and warriors have 7" move I can probably advance and still fire if I really have to. So an average of 10-11" a turn if I have to and even when I advance it's still respectable firepower. I don't care what anybody says killing 120 bodies even if they're toughness 3 isn't going to happen fast enough with that kind of firepower. Anti-infantry at long range for most armies is pretty poor in 8th.
DE really aren't that good at running hordes, outside of maybe Cursed Blade Wyches.120 bodies certainly does sound like a lot to chew through but many competitive lists are geared up to expect that many thanks to things like Plaguebearers, Infantry and Orks.
Hell, a pretty standard Venom spam list for us that uses Shredders would probably wreck it without much effort. It's a tactic that can work but it's not where the Codex excels.
Burnage wrote: DE really aren't that good at running hordes, outside of maybe Cursed Blade Wyches.120 bodies certainly does sound like a lot to chew through but many competitive lists are geared up to expect that many thanks to things like Plaguebearers, Infantry and Orks.
What about a Ynnari detachment with 120 Kabalite Warriors and Yvraine to give them all a 5++?
Burnage wrote: DE really aren't that good at running hordes, outside of maybe Cursed Blade Wyches.120 bodies certainly does sound like a lot to chew through but many competitive lists are geared up to expect that many thanks to things like Plaguebearers, Infantry and Orks.
Hell, a pretty standard Venom spam list for us that uses Shredders would probably wreck it without much effort. It's a tactic that can work but it's not where the Codex excels.
I think I disagree. Keep in mind while it sounds expensive the blaster armed warriors probably cost 1k tops. Enough room to add ravages or grotesques or whatever with the remaining points. As far as shredders in venoms go you can only take 1 per 5 warriors and trueborn can take 4 but there's a limit of 3 trueborn units in 2k pts. I mean you could take shredders on foot with warriors but why would you? The range is poor even with obsidian rose and if you face a gun-line then good luck. I enjoy shredders to an extent but if they're in few venom they can die quickly esp to 3+ or 2+ to hit armies that just crap all over negative shooting modifier units esp if they're fairly fragile.
A venom with 5 warriors is about 22 poisoned shots. Average of 7 wounds before I get to save with armor and 6 up fnp.thats maybe 4 kills by poison without considering. Congrats that's only 24 pts down and more boys to go. Now th same injured possibly 2 or more with their infantry blob and given speed I'd probably get closer in range to murder all your stuff with rapid fire. Keep in mind they have both blasters for tough units and spammed splinter fire for anything they want to down.
Anyway I still mostly stand by what I said a cost effective unit that fulfills a role. As a said I just don't think you can get through th bodies fast enough and 20 man warrior blobs can take everything trueborn can.
I honestly think it'd cost similar points to do blasterborn in venom rather than warriors blobs 20 with 4 blasters on foot. Also if you feel like they'll draw too much melee or ranged units then get some melee units to eat the firepower for them
All I have to say is please, please GW make these models not suck in-game. Not sure how I feel about the head part of the model but the rest is great looking.
All I have to say is please, please GW make these models not suck in-game. Not sure how I feel about the head part of the model but the rest is great looking.
The fact that Demiklaives remain as crap as ever certainly doesn't alleviate my concerns on this front.
They still need to get to the fight. Until that gets fixed, they're still a poor sixth choice behind reavers, wyches, wracks, grotesques and even hellions. And maybe some of the beasts as well.
Voss wrote: They still need to get to the fight. Until that gets fixed, they're still a poor sixth choice behind reavers, wyches, wracks, grotesques and even hellions. And maybe some of the beasts as well.
Oh gak I forgot they can't ride in transports because they have no affiliation.
Jeez you have to wonder if anyone playtests half these rules.
No wait I'm getting confused. They can ride in transports can't they?
Voss wrote: They still need to get to the fight. Until that gets fixed, they're still a poor sixth choice behind reavers, wyches, wracks, grotesques and even hellions. And maybe some of the beasts as well.
Oh gak I forgot they can't ride in transports because they have no affiliation.
Jeez you have to wonder if anyone playtests half these rules.
No wait I'm getting confused. They can ride in transports can't they?
they can ride in them, because drukhari transports arent faction-bound like the rest of the game,
Really excited about the Incubi models, but mainly as Archon conversion options. Unless something changes rules-wise, I'd still take Mandrakes in preference.
If they could make incubi good in-game that'd be nice but the problem is I'd rather have grotesques with a haemonculus boosting almost every time. Incubi have sort of sucked since even the end of 7th when t5 became fairly standard for enemies they'd face. Being a mercenary unit also sucks as well as a limit of 3 unit data sheets in 2k pts. Seriously the unit limit very heavily favors some factions and ruins others esp. With our 3 sub-faction army book.
I somehow doubt klaivex would be an hq. Keep in mind even if they are how does it work with the 3 sub faction hqs. I mean if it can be taken maybe that'd help but I dunno.
@thefleshisweak: if we're lucky maybe incubi will be base strength 4 and we don't know how many attacks yet or armor save. Honestly I hope a 5+ inv comes with them but likely they won't change much. I don't see the selling point of making new models suck in the game but it has happened.
Voss wrote: They still need to get to the fight. Until that gets fixed, they're still a poor sixth choice behind reavers, wyches, wracks, grotesques and even hellions. And maybe some of the beasts as well.
Oh gak I forgot they can't ride in transports because they have no affiliation.
Jeez you have to wonder if anyone playtests half these rules.
No wait I'm getting confused. They can ride in transports can't they?
Absolutely they can.
But in older editions, incubi could jump off transports and assault in the same turn, so delivering them to a target wasn't a problem.
In 8th edition, that can't happen. You have to conveniently park near an enemy, pass the turn and let them decide what to do about it.
Wych cult units are fast (or only slightly faster and cheaper) and don't care, Coven units are tough enough to soak fire. Both categories have options, characters, obsessions AND stratagems to make whatever option you take better. Incubi have t3 and 3+ and...nothing to help get into the fight. t3/3+ just doesn't make the grade for a melee-only unit that lacks the depth of support given to the rest of the codex.
Voss wrote: They still need to get to the fight. Until that gets fixed, they're still a poor sixth choice behind reavers, wyches, wracks, grotesques and even hellions. And maybe some of the beasts as well.
Oh gak I forgot they can't ride in transports because they have no affiliation.
Jeez you have to wonder if anyone playtests half these rules.
No wait I'm getting confused. They can ride in transports can't they?
Absolutely they can.
But in older editions, incubi could jump off transports and assault in the same turn, so delivering them to a target wasn't a problem.
In 8th edition, that can't happen. You have to conveniently park near an enemy, pass the turn and let them decide what to do about it.
Wych cult units are fast (or only slightly faster and cheaper) and don't care, Coven units are tough enough to soak fire. Both categories have options, characters, obsessions AND stratagems to make whatever option you take better. Incubi have t3 and 3+ and...nothing to help get into the fight. t3/3+ just doesn't make the grade for a melee-only unit that lacks the depth of support given to the rest of the codex.
Hopefully they get a decent buff.
The Banshees are getting Exarch powers. Maybe the Incubi will get something similar.
Something to compensate for not getting obsessions.
Apologies if this has already been done to death, but does anyone have any opinions/insight into how worthwhile Yvraine is in a Kabalite list; instead of a second Achon?
harlokin wrote: Apologies if this has already been done to death, but does anyone have any opinions/insight into how worthwhile Yvraine is in a Kabalite list; instead of a second Achon?
Well, Yvraine is more expensive and she won't be able to support your troops at all (just like the Archon ).
In melee, they're pretty similar with Yvraine basically having a Huskblade and just 1 fewer attack.
Yvraine almost certainly has better survivability, though, with a 4++ and the chance to regain a wound every time an Eldar model dies within 6" of her.
But by far her most important ability is that she's a psyker. She can only deny one power per turn but that's still one more tha DE usually manage and she gets +1 to casting and deny rolls to boot.
In terms of powers, Gaze and smite let her potentially do 2d3 Mortal Wounds per turn. As for her second power, Word of the Phoenix gives her more healing whilst Unbind Souls makes her almost as dangerous as a Harlequin Troupe Master.
Overall, I'd say she adds quite a bit over an Archon. Unfortunately, if you want to make her your warlord (to make use of her survivability) then you'll find her warlord trait is absolute crap.
Elfric wrote: I think the Yncarne is something players need to start thinking about now.
I'm trying it at the moment, though I've only had one game with it so far.
Ynnari have some decent powers, though some of them only really work in a Ynnari detachment. Hence, you're basically just going to be using Ancestor's Grace, Gaze of Ynnead (self-only) and Smite. These aren't bad powers but it's worth rembering that a Ynnari Shadowseer, Farseer or Yvraine could do the same for ~1/3 of the cost (in face, the latter two are actually better at casting and denying powers than the Yncarne).
He does have an aura which is useless on DE infantry (since PfP gives the same bonus) but I believe it does work on vehicles, so there's that. Of course, the vehicles would have to be taken in a Ynnari detachment, which is likely to be of dubious value compared with Flayed Skull or Black Heart.
The Yncarne is certainly impressive in melee with 6 attacks at WS2+ S6 AP-4 Dd6 and rerolling failed wound rolls (plus Ancestor's Grace to reroll 1s to hit).
However, he's got no ranged attack outside of Smite/Gaze - which is a bit of a blow for a model costing over 330pts. What's more, he only has M8" and so is reliant on his Summoned By Death ability to get where he needs to. And since you can't charge when you use this ability you're basically relying on your opponent to kill the right unit (for you) at the right time.
Also, defensively he's T6 with a 3+/4++ and 9 wounds (plus his own 6+++ aura). Not awful but he won't stand up to any concentrated firepower so in combination with relying on your opponent to position him you also can't afford to expose him to enemy fire.
I mean, when I look at a Winged Daemon Prince of Tzeentch - which has near enough the same statline, an aura, can also cast 2 psychic powers per turn, and has less-tricky but far more reliable mobility. The only place it's really worse is that it's not quite as good in melee. Yet for just slightly more than the cost of the Yncarne you can get two of those daemon princes.
For me at least, it's really hard to justify the cost of the Yncarne.
I think ynnari lists with beasts and the yncarne is something that should be explored, especially razorwing flocks.
Her aura works on the birds to give them an actual save when you need them as a screen. You can also run something like 1 big squad and 2 smaller ones to use as Summoned by Death fodder since they are so mobile and fly, you can charge a tank behind a screen, and when they get killed (ideally in their fight phase), you pop the yncarne in their backline to wreck havoc.
I think it can be quite useful honestly. its still quite pricy but if it gets a price reduction / new rules in the upcoming chapter approved, it might become a mainstay.
As someone that uses Yncarne, its not good a tall anymore. And the Ynnari community has tried Yncarne + Beasts, its not as good as it seems on paper sadly.
The Yncarne is just way over costed at this point.
To add: We did many scenarios, DP's, Broodlords, and many other heroes with melee+Powers are just better for the points.
The Yncarne if stays at that high point value (which they may want that) needs some more useful rules though stratagems, ynnari, etc...
Amishprn86 wrote: As someone that uses Yncarne, its not good a tall anymore. And the Ynnari community has tried Yncarne + Beasts, its not as good as it seems on paper sadly.
The Yncarne is just way over costed at this point.
To add: We did many scenarios, DP's, Broodlords, and many other heroes with melee+Powers are just better for the points.
The Yncarne if stays at that high point value (which they may want that) needs some more useful rules though stratagems, ynnari, etc...
What about the Visarch? He seems overlooked in favour of the Yncarne and Yvraine.
Amishprn86 wrote: As someone that uses Yncarne, its not good a tall anymore. And the Ynnari community has tried Yncarne + Beasts, its not as good as it seems on paper sadly.
The Yncarne is just way over costed at this point.
To add: We did many scenarios, DP's, Broodlords, and many other heroes with melee+Powers are just better for the points.
The Yncarne if stays at that high point value (which they may want that) needs some more useful rules though stratagems, ynnari, etc...
What about the Visarch? He seems overlooked in favour of the Yncarne and Yvraine.
The reason he's overlooked is that Yvraine and the Yncarne bring something DE doesn't normally have access to - namely psychic powers.
Meanwhile, the Visarch is an overpriced melee HQ in an army that already has basically nothing but overpriced melee HQs.
Ran into the triple riptide tau army last Saturday. I got fairly heavily destroyed. Oh and my grotesques finally failed the charge for once and got lit up pretty hard. One overwatch and a shooting phase later and they were completely wiped out. They're fairly durable too so that amount of firepower is ridiculous. Also riptides will always be in range to shoot our ravagers with heavy burst cannons so there's no real way around em esp. since we only have a limit on 3 ravagers. The army also consisted of 3 broadsides and plenty of drones. Kinda getting annoyed at our lack of long ranged anti-infantry aside from dissies and splinter cannons (and splinter cannons suck at long range). Against tau it forces me to maybe get close to take our the drones and that can be tough.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Ran into the triple riptide tau army last Saturday. I got fairly heavily destroyed. Oh and my grotesques finally failed the charge for once and got lit up pretty hard. One overwatch and a shooting phase later and they were completely wiped out. They're fairly durable too so that amount of firepower is ridiculous. Also riptides will always be in range to shoot our ravagers with heavy burst cannons so there's no real way around em esp. since we only have a limit on 3 ravagers. The army also consisted of 3 broadsides and plenty of drones. Kinda getting annoyed at our lack of long ranged anti-infantry aside from dissies and splinter cannons (and splinter cannons suck at long range). Against tau it forces me to maybe get close to take our the drones and that can be tough.
What was your list? What was the mission type? Are you willing to ally?
It's the list I always run with 3 shredderborn units in 3 venoms, 10 groteques and haemi in ds, and dark lance ravagers which I never remember to take as dissies. Oh and 2 void lance void ravens which I should probably switch with razorwings with dissies.
Mission type was hold objectives at game end which he never told me until late in the game by accident. Either way 3 were on his side so at best I could've tied if I didn't take ground in range of all his guns.
For the moment I don't want to ally but if I did I'd go for harlies which probably wouldn't do much with the haywire loadout I'd normally use.
The main issue of my Army is I can't afford more stuff. Otherwise I'd try full dissies and maybe 120 warriors wish 24 blasters. It's untested but dissies seem decent at times and crap in others. STR 5, decent ap and 2 damage isn't too bad though.
So we might be in a pickle along with everyone else verse NuMahreens lol. That -1 damage iron hand relic really puts the screws to our dissies. Heck, it even screws macro scalpels entirely. With all the to hit bonuses and chapter masters new improved aura our hit mods are looking less effective too.
I was planning on expanding my wych cult too, but primaris with shock assault are better at punching as well. I think we can still do better then a lot of other armies, but I feel our list of options just got a lot shorter when it comes to staying competitive.
Elfric wrote: Mass haywire I think from Skyweavers and Talos. I'm hearing that Leviathan IH dreadnought is harder to kill than pre nerf Castellan
Yea don't bother building to kill that thing. You need to ignore it or tie it up. It will have armor of contempt used and then it will heal 6 wound plus d3 from a psychic power the next turn. Personally, I don't like skyweavers and now that doom is out I honestly don't find them nearly as effective when they can use armor of contempt. 6 will shoot ~21 shots, 14 hits, for about 7-8 mortals then they ignore 2-3 of that so your only doing about 5 wounds. Plus I don't want to jump to clowns in a dark eldar tactic thread
I think our best bet is killing their infantry, issue is mass poison is awful verse primaris and volume of damage 1 ap0 is no better. I am guessing coven is our best build once again. They don't care about the marines extra ap from doctrines, they have high enough toughness and the quality of their attacks, despite relying on punching, to kill through multi wound marines. Trouble with that is grotesques are more durable then talos and they can be tremor shell or hit with the halve move psychic power. So that leaves us pigeon holed to talos yet again like you suggested. I just was hoping we were not their quite yet as it is generally a sign that we are sliding down the pole toward the bottom again lol.
I really was enjoying wych cult, but I am not sure they can do it anymore due to shock assault and the shear volume of fire. 6 agressors have 114 shots on average for feths sake They are basically baby castellan robots, only they don't need to risk staying put all game and they hit like a ton of bricks in assault. Iron hands can overwatch on a 4+ and everyone else can fall back and shoot due to chapter tactics or strats lol. I like a new challenge, but this is a tough nut
If you're going up against Iron Hands (and in tournaments over the next few months, you will be), they'll probably be bringing enough vehicles that Skyweavers will be worth it even if you want to ignore the Leviathan.
If you want to stick purely to Drukhari - or, at least, not spend 1000 points on bringing 18 Harlie bikes - Talos are probably the best bet, but even they're not super good against Iron Hands vehicles.
It's a rough match-up, especially for our boats and planes. Trying to hide out of line of sight of the castle, hoping to slip past overwatch into combat and generally playing the objective game might be the best hope.
Flat 2 damage and causing 4 wounds on rolls of 6 is nice. Combine that with Onslaught and his natural ability to fight twice, he'll murder other characters
I'm glad he's more viable now. I used to take him only because it was the only way to field two Kabalite battalions in 2000 pts while respecting the Rule of Three. Now I might actually take him because he's good at killing Primaris marines.
Amishprn86 wrote: I want to see his Aura, Points, and main stats still i judge, but no matter what he is already better than the current one.
His old aura is such crap. 10 to 1 odds it is copy pasted over. Rather then +1 to hit I hope i is +1 to wound, suddenly incubi become interesting again. Hopefully he keeps hatred eternal because that actually makes him more dangerous.
Away from books right now... Does Lethal Precision for regular Incubi trigger on a 6+ to wound, or on an unmodified 6 (like the one they just gave Drazhar)?
Even if it's on an unmodified 6, a +1 to wound would still be more useful than +1 to hit, since Incubi are already hitting on 2+ from turn 3 onwards thanks to Power From Pain.
-Guardsman- wrote: Away from books right now... Does Lethal Precision for regular Incubi trigger on a 6+ to wound, or on an unmodified 6 (like the one they just gave Drazhar)?
Even if it's on an unmodified 6, a +1 to wound would still be more useful than +1 to hit, since Incubi are already hitting on 2+ from turn 3 onwards thanks to Power From Pain.
-Guardsman- wrote: Away from books right now... Does Lethal Precision for regular Incubi trigger on a 6+ to wound, or on an unmodified 6 (like the one they just gave Drazhar)?
Even if it's on an unmodified 6, a +1 to wound would still be more useful than +1 to hit, since Incubi are already hitting on 2+ from turn 3 onwards thanks to Power From Pain.
I'm betting it'll change to an unmodified 6 in Psychic Awakening. With the Klaivex getting access to Demi-klaives again I'd be very surprised if there isn't a new datasheet for Incubi, but I don't expect much change for them.
Amishprn86 wrote: I want to see his Aura, Points, and main stats still i judge, but no matter what he is already better than the current one.
His old aura is such crap. 10 to 1 odds it is copy pasted over. Rather then +1 to hit I hope i is +1 to wound, suddenly incubi become interesting again. Hopefully he keeps hatred eternal because that actually makes him more dangerous.
Agreed as STR 4 melee isn't totally enough now since we need 5. With multiple damage en mass could actually handle monsters and tanks. The issue being they're still t 3 and 3 up armor is still just armor rather than a nice inv. Save.Might be worth a shot to try and see how they compare to grotesques since sub factions get way more buffs.
So I am mainly an AoS player, but was thinking of getting into 40k as a sort of side project. Sometimes you just need to shoot some ray guns, instead of swinging that sword over and over, you know?
Played 40k for several editions as an Ork player. Quit around 5th edition or so. I no longer have my Orks (long story) and I am not very happy with the current version of the Ork army. Faced with the prospect of starting Orks over from scratch, I feel like if you are going to buy (or in my case, REbuy) and paint that many models, you should really love what you are building, and that's just not where I'm at right now.
Cue the Drukhari. Always thought they had a cool concept for an army. Thinking about giving them a whirl. Just starting my preliminary research - already hitting 1d4chan, YouTube, etc. Thought I would see what you folks had to say.
1) how are pure Drukhari armies performing these days?
2) how dependent on CP's are they?
3) what's the usual model count for a 2000 pt army these days? How many infantry and vehicles?
4) having so many large flying vehicles seems like a pain to transport. Is this true and what do you to counter that?
5) how many, and what sorts of detachments do you use?
I guess that's enough to get me started. Thanks in advance!
and its only 1850 ish points, you can easily throw in other things or another Venom.
