Because you need to take 2 or more to get access to important detachments, they don't play well with their own toys (Incubi are most commonly employed as bodyguards for Archons, so let's go out of our way to make sure that the Archon's bubble doesn't actually support the unit most likely to accompany him), and the require significant investment of traits and relics to do their job. And unfortunately, Djinn Blades are one per army.
It's the obvious price of splitting the faction so far that GW didn't manage to foresee. It's where the pain of the Dark Eldar's Skornergy really shines. It matters because not only is it a huge missed opportunity (VECT), but it seriously inhibits gameplay.
The Dark Eldar codex is a good book, it has a lot of good things going for it and it's one of the better written codeces of 8th edition so far. But this is definitely a big problem.
Yes they use this because they have at least one Ulthwé unit. The example above says "you don't appear to need ANY Black Heart units for it" which is false, you need at least one Black Heart unit. Because it's a Black Heart stratagem.
Yes they use this because they have at least one Ulthwé unit. The example above says "you don't appear to need ANY Black Heart units for it" which is false, you need at least one Black Heart unit. Because it's a Black Heart stratagem.
You should probably address the fact that the Ulthwe stratagem explicitly requires you to use it on an Ulthwe unit, whereas the Black Heart one has no such requirement, if you want anyone to find this persuasive.
I mean... going by RAW, Agents of Vect doesn't place any restriction on you. There's nothing that restricts its utility to the Kabal of the Black heart. I'm expecting this'll get FAQ'd, but as things stand, it's pretty clearly without restriction.
Tyel wrote: I don't really see the sob story for DEHQs.
They are cheap compared to a lot of other factions. Sure it might be nice to shave off another 20 points - but does it really matter?
When we're forced to take them, absolutely.
However, rather than just a price cut, I'd prefer to see more sensible options made with regard to their auras and such.
In the Archon's case, there's no reason for him to even have an aura. What if instead he had an ability like 'At the beginning of your shooting phase, you may choose an enemy unit within 18" of the Archon (or within 18" of a transport he's currently embarked on). For the remainder of the turn, friendly Drukhari units reroll hit rolls of 1 against the designated unit.
(The Writ of the Living Muse artefact would allow you to reroll to-wound rolls of 1 against the designated enemy.)
Now the Archon can apply his buff from a transport. He doesn't need to be close to the units he wants to buff, and there's also a reason to include more than 1 Archon in your army (since they can each designate different targets to get rerolls against).
You could make it <Kabal> units instead of Drukhari units, but I think this better cements him as the overall leader.
That's just off the top of my head, but I'd much rather see something like that than just have another 10-20pts knocked off his cost (which is dull and doesn't address the core problems).
AnFéasógMór wrote: I don't necessarily agree with all of the things you list, but these three I'm with you 100% Like, Succubi should be able to take a skyboard or bike, just like most other factions HQs have non-"vehicle" vehicle options (I mean, a lot of them were Hellions and Reavers before they were wyches), or else have some sort of rule that lets them tag along with those units, matching the fluff of them leaping from skyboard to bike to ground and back, or at the very least, have and Arena Champion or Helliarch HQ that can provide bonuses to those units. And it would have been so simple to give Drukhari vehicles a rule that let auras work with them (and also, to give at least Venoms a 6 man capacity, like the nearly identical Starweaver, if not give Raiders an 11 or 12 man capacity)
Agreed. I'll add that I think Archons should be able to take Scourge wings.
You could make it <Kabal> units instead of Drukhari units, but I think this better cements him as the overall leader
Eh, I know I'm resorting to the hated fluff argument, but I'd reserve it to the Kabal, because inter-faction leadership is never cemented with Drukhari. Even Vect everyone would happily murder if they could get away with it.
Agreed. I'll add that I think Archons should be able to take Scourge wings.
I love this idea, because it would create parity with Swooping Hawk Autarchs, buuuuuut again I don't know if it would fit the fluff. Scourges have sort've inherently separated themselves from the rest of Drukhari politics.
Tyel wrote: I don't really see the sob story for DEHQs.
They are cheap compared to a lot of other factions. Sure it might be nice to shave off another 20 points - but does it really matter?
It's a combination of four things. They're not cheap, they're not good, they're not spammable, and they can't share detachments.
1. Most armies are taking cheaper HQs than these when they're trying to fill slots and farm CP (such as Company Commanders, Warlocks, or Cadre Fireblades).
2. Lots of factions have HQs that are independently good so aren't a tax, and so they don't care that they're spending a lot on them (such as all of the aforementioned as well as Tau Commanders, Hive Tyrants, Farseers, or Daemon Princes).
3. Lots of these are even good when taken multiply, and so you have no problem filling Battalions with, e.g., 2 Hive Tyrants or 2 Company Commanders or 2 pre-nerf Tau Commanders.
4. Other factions have much more flexibility in putting detachments together. For example, Craftworld Eldar can bring a Battalion with a Farseer and an Autarch. Guard can bring a Commander and a Primaris Psyker. Dark Eldar can't do this without losing Obsessions -- if you want Warriors and Wyches and Wracks, you're bringing 3 HQs minimum.
I think really only Necrons are in worse shape when it comes to having to bring HQs to bring other stuff and get CP.
The point cost on the HQs is fine, as Vipoid noted. It's utility that's the problem, and I like his solution.
Although if you do restrict it to <Kabal> units, there should really be an exception for at least Incubi.
It also might be a bit greedy, but I wouldn't mind seeing Alliance of Agony's stipulation that it be one from each sub-faction be removed. I don't like Wyches, but I'd be more than happy to kit out two different Archons. And I'm sure other players are in similar boats. And since Dark Eldar HQ functionality seems to be tied to their warlord abilities and relics (except for Haemonculi... they're actually kind of solid all on their own), it is a big opportunity cost to lose when GW kept going on about how their plan was to allow players to go all in on their preferred sub-factions while the actual rules very harshly penalize that.
For what it's worth, with how DEHQs are limited in their mobility, it really should be a big deal when one gets into close combat. With room for variation, Archons should eat characters and big game alive, Succubi should cut through hordes like a blender, and Haemonculi... should just keep doing what they're doing, really.
I know i'm behind but i just got my codex. I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed but everything seems to be boosted. Shredders and blasters are better. Haywire might be ok-ish finally considering it's what d3 shots and got a points drop? Kinda feel bad after i tore off all those haywire now. I still think i'd prefer blasters to heat lances even with the points changes. You have to get insanely close for heat lance and str 6 even with ap 5 isn't so hot. I'd rather just spam the blasters. Maybe bikes could work with heat lances but i'd need to check.
Anyway there's still a lot to go through and all the choices makes this overwhelming. All things considered we're better in the things that used to need a boost. The things that got no boosts were pretty much good anyway (void raven aside from void raven missiles and dark lances). Lots of points decreases.
Yeah it could take a while figuring tactics out but it feels good so far.
So i was thinkin of running 5 warriors squads (with a venom each) and 2x5 scourges. Should i put blasters on warriors and shredders on scourges or vice versa?
(I dont think i need blasters on both, i have 3 blaster archons and 4 blasters in a reaver squad)
Reading it now and they look amazing. I especially am seeing that maybe mass poison might be good? That Serpent's kiss obsessions with an archon's venomblade, and the artefact pistol that are poison and also add 2 to wound rolls means archon can and will reliably hit and almost always wound!!! If you roll 1, obsession lets you reroll it, and on rolls of 2, weapons add 2 to it so total becomes 4 meaning you wound!! So I am digging it.
Eh, I know I'm resorting to the hated fluff argument, but I'd reserve it to the Kabal, because inter-faction leadership is never cemented with Drukhari. Even Vect everyone would happily murder if they could get away with it.
Hmm. What if it worked on <Kabal> and 'mercenary' units (Scourges, Incubi and Mandrakes)?
I'd hope they'd at least acknowledge the leadership of the guy who's paying them.
I love this idea, because it would create parity with Swooping Hawk Autarchs, buuuuuut again I don't know if it would fit the fluff. Scourges have sort've inherently separated themselves from the rest of Drukhari politics.
Well, surely there's the possibility of some of them taking an interest and rising to the top (perhaps in a similar manner to Baron Sathonyx)?
Alternatively, it could simply be an Archon who believes that flying on his own wings is a better way to experience the battle than merely riding atop a transport. Hell, he could want to lead his own band of Scourges, descending on enemies like birds of prey.
I appreciate that these will likely be rare, but don't think it would be unreasonable to at least have that as an option.
Cptskillet wrote: Reading it now and they look amazing. I especially am seeing that maybe mass poison might be good? That Serpent's kiss obsessions with an archon's venomblade, and the artefact pistol that are poison and also add 2 to wound rolls means archon can and will reliably hit and almost always wound!!! If you roll 1, obsession lets you reroll it, and on rolls of 2, weapons add 2 to it so total becomes 4 meaning you wound!! So I am digging it.
Bear in mind that you don't get the reroll for artefacts. So you can't use it with Parasite's Kiss. Which is a shame, really.
I mean, Craftworld Eldar get Falchu's Wing as a relic, and that just gives flight and M12" straight up. That wouldn't be unreasonable to give to an Archon. Especially since, unlike the Craftworld codex, where almost all the relics are crap and there are only a couple that are pretty much auto-takes because everything else is so useless, Dark Eldar relics are generally pretty good and offer a wide variety of toys at a fair opportunity cost.
BlaxicanX wrote: What type of builds do you guys think could reliably deal with flyrant spam?
Theorycrafting against a dying build? If and when Hive Tyrants are limited to 3 and go up 20 points each?
If you have a tournament this week and GW keeps delaying the errata though, well, try to go second so he needs to deep all his Tyrants before you need to deep your units, which should be about 8 or 9 Ravagers. I'd also go with a maxed Shining Spear unit that you keep in a corner waiting for the Tyrants to come down, bubblewrapped by 3 suicidal Ranger units. You'll clean house when the Tyrants are all down, and all they'll be able to kill are your Rangers. Something along those lines. Minimum squads of Reapers in the corner with the 3 Eldar psykers wouldn't hurt either.
Yes they use this because they have at least one Ulthwé unit. The example above says "you don't appear to need ANY Black Heart units for it" which is false, you need at least one Black Heart unit. Because it's a Black Heart stratagem.
Yes they use this because they have at least one Ulthwé unit. The example above says "you don't appear to need ANY Black Heart units for it" which is false, you need at least one Black Heart unit. Because it's a Black Heart stratagem.
You should probably address the fact that the Ulthwe stratagem explicitly requires you to use it on an Ulthwe unit, whereas the Black Heart one has no such requirement, if you want anyone to find this persuasive.
Hmm yeah actually no rules are specifically written so that only Black Heart guys can activate it. I expect a FAQ to answer that, because I don't believe anyone will let you have the best stratagem of the codex with no Black Heart units in your army.
Fafnir wrote: I mean, Craftworld Eldar get Falchu's Wing as a relic, and that just gives flight and M12" straight up. That wouldn't be unreasonable to give to an Archon.
I'd rather have the option of actual scourge wings though - not just an artefact that's worse from the get-go.
I get that Eldar have that, but they also have access to proper wings and jetbikes alongside it.
Anyway, getting back to tactics, what are your thoughts on running Grotesques? I'd like to use a couple of squads in Raiders (with a character in each). Here's the thing - I only own 6 Grotesques. Do you think 3 per Raider will be enough, or should I try to get some more so that I can have 4 in each?
I'd go with 4, but even 3 can do stuff. I've tried footslogging them for the first time, a unit of 8. Along with 6 talos and urien who buffs their S, T and Ld. They soaked a lot of firepower and turn 3 assault was brutal.
Grotesques seem like an ideal candidate for the webway strike stratagem. They're hard to transport, they can't take much advantage of transports being open-topped, and they're really durable so don't mind being shot at if they fail their charge. 1 CP saves you 2 or 3 Raiders.
And as a unit they seem pretty solid. They're pretty durable vs everything, and will tend to draw the same anti-tank fire that your Ravagers are vulnerable to. They do okay damage too.
I put 6 in the webway yesterday and deep struck them turn 2. I seem to be pretty good at making those 9" charges as I pull it off a lot more often than I don't, Flesh Gauntlets for the Mortal Wounds are actually really good for hitting something T6 or better, Cleavers mulch anything T5 or less.
They're also surprisingly resiliant, they got flamed several times by Y'Varhas yet I only lost 4 all game, and the last one was to the Y'Vahra blowing up.
Imateria wrote: I put 6 in the webway yesterday and deep struck them turn 2. I seem to be pretty good at making those 9" charges as I pull it off a lot more often than I don't, Flesh Gauntlets for the Mortal Wounds are actually really good for hitting something T6 or better, Cleavers mulch anything T5 or less.
They're also surprisingly resiliant, they got flamed several times by Y'Varhas yet I only lost 4 all game, and the last one was to the Y'Vahra blowing up.
I hope you're not using the gauntlets as poison weapons still, because they're not anymore. It's kind of a "nerf/buff" because it makes grots worse against T6+ (unless you use the 2cp reroll wound strat) but better against elite infantry with invuln saves.
But yeah, as to their durability, it's top notch. I ran 5 in a game and they tanked an entire tau army minus two commanders. Ate probably 100 S5 AP- shots, I lost 1.
Just an FYI, you should be using the Flesh Gauntlets vs everything other than vehicles. A hit with the Gauntlets always produces an extra 1/6 of an unsaved wound, on average. A hit with the Cleaver produces an extra 1/36 of an unsaved wound per wound possibility (so 3/36 of an unsaved wound vs T5, 4/36 of an unsaved wound vs T3), assuming that you're getting value out of its AP at all. Take the free attack with the Cleaver but your main 3 with the Gauntlets.
Dionysodorus wrote: Grotesques seem like an ideal candidate for the webway strike stratagem. They're hard to transport, they can't take much advantage of transports being open-topped, and they're really durable so don't mind being shot at if they fail their charge. 1 CP saves you 2 or 3 Raiders.
But if I transport the unit, then their Haemonculus is stuck at the back of the field twiddling his thumbs.
Dionysodorus wrote: Grotesques seem like an ideal candidate for the webway strike stratagem. They're hard to transport, they can't take much advantage of transports being open-topped, and they're really durable so don't mind being shot at if they fail their charge. 1 CP saves you 2 or 3 Raiders.
But if I transport the unit, then their Haemonculus is stuck at the back of the field twiddling his thumbs.
The haemonculus with Grotesques is actually the one unit where the transport problem doesn't really matter. You can fit a haemie in with 4 grotesques no problem (I'd also pop a Lhamean in there if you have a Court, since A) lhameans are busted, and B) she's a good mook to die if the transport goes pop.
Yet another reason why the haemonculus just kind of floats around in his own little world, caring much less about the transport issue than anyone else.
I suppose with Lhameans being so broken the archon doesn't really care either. We'll see if their 4+ to cause a mortal wound nonsense survives the 2-week FAQ I suppose, but if it does, I've definitely solved the question of what I transport along with my archon.
The succubus is really the only one in my eyes who doesn't have a good, clear-cut "this is what you do" solution. She wants to be getting into combat at the same time as units that are much, much faster than her, and she just has no way to do that currently. I suppose you could webway her in, but that's a pretty exorbitant cost just to get her in the neighborhood while your reavers hit the enemy lines.
The haemonculus with Grotesques is actually the one unit where the transport problem doesn't really matter. You can fit a haemie in with 4 grotesques no problem (I'd also pop a Lhamean in there if you have a Court, since A) lhameans are busted, and B) she's a good mook to die if the transport goes pop.
I actually meant transporting the Grotesques via WWP.
Sorry, I realise now my language was poorly chosen.
I like the idea of using Lhamaeans to take up spare transport slots, though.
I suppose with Lhameans being so broken the archon doesn't really care either. We'll see if their 4+ to cause a mortal wound nonsense survives the 2-week FAQ I suppose, but if it does, I've definitely solved the question of what I transport along with my archon.
Well, they've still only got 2 attacks, so I can't imagine they'll be that broken.
The succubus is really the only one in my eyes who doesn't have a good, clear-cut "this is what you do" solution. She wants to be getting into combat at the same time as units that are much, much faster than her, and she just has no way to do that currently. I suppose you could webway her in, but that's a pretty exorbitant cost just to get her in the neighborhood while your reavers hit the enemy lines.
Yeah, this is one of the things I'm struggling with in terms of including Wych detachments in my army.
But if I transport the unit, then their Haemonculus is stuck at the back of the field twiddling his thumbs.
The Haemonculus can get there however you would ordinarily get him there. Even if he's walking he can be a ways across the table on turn 1, and you can bring down the Grots so that 1 is within 6" of him and then keep it there even if they make their charge. If you're putting them in a Raider, you're not going to be charging anything until turn 2 anyway, so this is a clear win.
Edit: Say your Haemie advances only 1" so he's 8" up the field. You can put down a Grot so that it's just within 6" of him. Its base is more than 1.5" across. The next Grot can be 2" away from that one, and so the front of its base can still be 19" ahead of your deployment zone. Meanwhile if you want more than a handful of Grots you're going to have the problem that some of them are riding in a transport without a Haemie, and if one gets shot down you're going to have some Grots without an aura.
They have 2 attacks. In what is almost certainly going to be the most popular Kabal, they hit nearly 100% of the time (rerollable 2s if near an archon, starting turn 2 with the Black Heart bonus), and then they cause a mortal wound on a 4+, so an average of about .9 MWs/Lhaeman.
They are a single model unit, 3 wounds, 5+ save 6++, which means you have to dedicate at least some fire to kill them, but because they're a one-model unit you're going to be overkilling them extremely often.
And theyre FIFTEEN points.
The only thing htat keeps them from being supremely broken to "I'm making a whole army of these" level is the fact that you can only have 4 per detachment.
Entire squads of snipers wish they had the mortal wound output of one fifteen point lhamean.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The "competitive wych detachment" if people do wyches in their competitive lists is almost certainly going to just be an outrider of Red Grief with Reavers and Scourges. Wyches are decent now, but I don't think they're good enough to carve out a slot amidst Ynnari/eldar soup.
If you asked me what we're going to see change with Aeldari lists with the DE codex, I'd tell you:
-3 Ravager+Writ Archon Black Heart spearhead will be in every list until Ravagers get nerfed. That detachment provides you so much utility it's ridiculous, and unlocks all DE strats for your Ynnari detachment, so you can have things like triple-attacking Ynnari Strife wyches and character sniping Dark Creed Reapers tacked into your Ynnari. Also, Agents of Vect is going to be very, very real paired with horde-clearing alpha strike.
-I think someone really skilled is going to pull out an Eldar soup freakshow list and absolutely demolish a character/horde reliant meta in a couple tournaments. One of the usual suspects is going to use it to get top three and people will start having to build to counter it. one Dark Creed detachment, one Black Heart detachment, one Alaitoc detachment can make a seriously brutal freakshow list with tons of CP that barely gives up any combat ability compared to the current standard eldar list, and all it's going to take is some meta where you have a vital character amongst some big horde block where a list like this is going to absolutely rock socks.
-Red Grief outrider with reavers and scourges will probably make an appearance. Reavers make a good "hold them down" while the rest of your eldar soup list can be tailored towards "and I'll kick."
-Standard Prophets of Flesh coven focused heavily on grots with urien and wracks for CP, maybe some Taloi. Problem is, not a good matchup vs the horde meta. I think if we see covens with the horde meta still in place, it'll be in a freakshow where mass LD debuffs will supplement their anti-horde capabilities.
Hmm. What if it worked on <Kabal> and 'mercenary' units (Scourges, Incubi and Mandrakes)?
I'd hope they'd at least acknowledge the leadership of the guy who's paying them.
See, that I definitely think should be the case. In general the fact that merc units get like 0 buffs is annoying.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fafnir wrote: I mean, Craftworld Eldar get Falchu's Wing as a relic, and that just gives flight and M12" straight up. That wouldn't be unreasonable to give to an Archon. Especially since, unlike the Craftworld codex, where almost all the relics are crap and there are only a couple that are pretty much auto-takes because everything else is so useless, Dark Eldar relics are generally pretty good and offer a wide variety of toys at a fair opportunity cost.
For a second I thought you were saying our relics are crap and I was about to be all "fite me"
I think we are mostly going to see flayed skull - transport/shuriken cannon spam. Probably a blackheart spearhead with ravagers just so you can use agents of vect as well.
Only issue I see is - archons are still quite useless. Incubi are useless. Scourges are also useless. Some pretty iconic units not getting any love...I just don't get it.
Hmm. What if it worked on <Kabal> and 'mercenary' units (Scourges, Incubi and Mandrakes)?
I'd hope they'd at least acknowledge the leadership of the guy who's paying them.
See, that I definitely think should be the case. In general the fact that merc units get like 0 buffs is annoying.
It's rather annoying that we don't have any HQs for them. Incubi have Drazhar, I guess. But there's no corresponding Scourge or Mandrake HQ.
So, yeah, it would be nice if the Archon was able to buff them.
the_scotsman wrote: They have 2 attacks. In what is almost certainly going to be the most popular Kabal, they hit nearly 100% of the time (rerollable 2s if near an archon, starting turn 2 with the Black Heart bonus), and then they cause a mortal wound on a 4+, so an average of about .9 MWs/Lhaeman.
Sure. But that's all they do. They have no shooting to speak of, they put out very few attacks, they don't benefit from Open Topped transports, they're pretty fragile in spite of their 3 wounds.
If they only caused Mortal Wounds on a to-wound roll of 6, why would you ever take them?
They are a single model unit, 3 wounds, 5+ save 6++, which means you have to dedicate at least some fire to kill them, but because they're a one-model unit you're going to be overkilling them extremely often.
True. At the same time, the units you're most likely to want Mortal Wounds against are also the most likely to have multiple-damage weapons. So those 3 wounds may end up meaning very little.
The only thing htat keeps them from being supremely broken to "I'm making a whole army of these" level is the fact that you can only have 4 per detachment.
Entire squads of snipers wish they had the mortal wound output of one fifteen point lhamean.
And I wish we had HQs that could inflict Mortal Wounds with psychic powers from 18" away whilst also buffing a unit in their army or debuffing an enemy one. or just using a different power to inflict extra Mortal Wounds.
Look, I don't dispute that Lhamaeans are good. I just don't think they're OMGBroken! However, I'm happy to reassess my opinion once I manage to get some games in with them.
The "competitive wych detachment" if people do wyches in their competitive lists is almost certainly going to just be an outrider of Red Grief with Reavers and Scourges. Wyches are decent now, but I don't think they're good enough to carve out a slot amidst Ynnari/eldar soup.
Regarding Reavers, am I right in thinking the main draw is the ability to charge on turn 1?
If so, is it worth taking Blasters on them, or should they just take Grav Talons?
EDIT:
Xenomancers wrote: Only issue I see is - archons are still quite useless. Incubi are useless. Scourges are also useless. Some pretty iconic units not getting any love...I just don't get it.
I agree about Archons, but are Scourges really useless? I get that they're fragile, but I'd have thought deep striking Blasters (with d6 damage now) or cheap Haywire Blasters would make them useful. Am I wrong?
The problem I keep having with Scourges is that I want Ravagers with disintegrator cannons and I want a bunch of Warriors in Venoms. I can either give the Warriors blasters or else take Scourges. Doing both seems like anti-tank overkill, but if I'm only doing one then it's obviously giving blasters to the Warriors since they're a lot more survivable.
Xenomancers wrote: I think we are mostly going to see flayed skull - transport/shuriken cannon spam. Probably a blackheart spearhead with ravagers just so you can use agents of vect as well.
Only issue I see is - archons are still quite useless. Incubi are useless. Scourges are also useless. Some pretty iconic units not getting any love...I just don't get it.
Flayed Skull mixed with Black Heart to get 6+++ ravagers as the core to an army is a possibility, but I still don't see it happening in a horde meta. Poison is just at too big of a disadvantage vs hordes when on the flip side of the coin, we could just ditch the Flayed Skull detachment for a Ynnari and Alaitoc and have deep striking guardian blobs be your sweepers. I suppose we'll see, it could happen that the ability to deep strike a squad of kabs with shredders and SC repeatedly for just 1cp each wins out, I think they're within a few percentage points of each other in terms of efficiency.
Archons - Disagree. D6 damage blast weapons, reroll 1 to hit aura, and good relics/WL traits make archons much improved for their points costs. Theyve gone from utter deadweight to a mediocre relic/WL trait caddy that has some interesting tricks and is great for casual fluffy games.
Incubi - Agree. One of the regrettable instances of "improved points cost, didnt fix unit" we have in the codex.
Scourges - biiiiiiiiiiiiig old disagree. Scourges are massively improved. Blaster, Shredder, and Haywire scourges are all viable depending on the meta. They deep strike, they fill your FA slots regardless of subfaction, they're cheap as chips, what's not to love there?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dionysodorus wrote: The problem I keep having with Scourges is that I want Ravagers with disintegrator cannons and I want a bunch of Warriors in Venoms. I can either give the Warriors blasters or else take Scourges. Doing both seems like anti-tank overkill, but if I'm only doing one then it's obviously giving blasters to the Warriors since they're a lot more survivable.
Give one of the two of them Shredders, then. Splitting the Kabs focus between anti-tank and anti-infantry feels like a bad move. I look at it this way - I need my anti-infantry capabilities to stay alive multiple turns pumping fire into stupid giant obnoxious blobs of infantry. I need my anti-tank capabilities to show up and deal a bunch of damage all at once to kill any hard targets that exist.
Kabalites are great for former, scourges for latter.
The only kabal you'd want on them is Obsidian rose, and even then...they deep strike, and you're not going to be taking OR 90% of the time anyway, unless you're really hankering to pull a shittier version of the 20 guardian drop with kabalites. BH is all but required, and Serpents Kiss and Flayed Skull are pretty much preference. I like SK because I'm going to be taking raiders with my BH detachment anyway and my SK trait works out very slightly stronger than my FS trait for my infantry.
I would call those ynnari armies. Was speaking pure dark eldar. As you posted on the last page - ynnari DE is going to be a black heart spearhead with ravagers just to unlock AOV. Nerfs in APR FAQ will determine the rest of the list - it's probably going to be mostly eldar though.
Archon I see as useless because you can get a better reroll 1's which affects units inside of transports. Making his reroll 1's redundant or ineffectual as DE prefer to stay inside transports and shoot out of them. Would have much preferred he went back to being a CC monster than a buffer.
As far as scourges go - I guess 4 shredders can give you some legit anti infantry firepower. However - I think it's just to fragile to rely on. Warriors in raiders with splinter racks will still do better I think overall. Hitting more/ and wounding more produce the same results.
Yeah, Xenomancers, mate, I think you might be running different Scourges than the rest of us. I love my glass cannons. I mean, they're definitely fragile, but 4 special weapons to a five man squad on a deep strike unit, with a 6++/6+++? I'll take that. Especially on a night like last night, when they roll 4 sixes to save and a squad that should have been dead just loses a shardcarbine.
AnFéasógMór wrote: Yeah, Xenomancers, mate, I think you might be running different Scourges than the rest of us. I love my glass cannons. I mean, they're definitely fragile, but 4 special weapons to a five man squad on a deep strike unit, with a 6++/6+++? I'll take that. Especially on a night like last night, when they roll 4 sixes to save and a squad that should have been dead just loses a shardcarbine.
A venom would have not even lost a unit though with those same rolls - it likely would have had to take less saves too.
Regarding Reavers, am I right in thinking the main draw is the ability to charge on turn 1?
If so, is it worth taking Blasters on them, or should they just take Grav Talons?
I'd run heat lances on them, and here's why: After running Red Grief bikers, I don't know how useful theu actually are. Like, great if you get first turn, but if you don't (which is increasingly likely now that the same points buys you a few more units). That "look at us, we can run 26" and then charge" is a big ole target on their back. Like guy I played last night annihilated the entire squad turn 1 (in fairness, wasted 90% of his firepower doing so and left everything else untouched, which served it's own type of purpose). In some way, I think Webway Portaled Strife bikers could be just as, if not more, useful.
But, in fairness, a few more matches might show different results.
I'd still out lances or blasters on them tho. You can shoot them after you advance, and you can always hit something other than what you want to charge.
AnFéasógMór wrote: Yeah, Xenomancers, mate, I think you might be running different Scourges than the rest of us. I love my glass cannons. I mean, they're definitely fragile, but 4 special weapons to a five man squad on a deep strike unit, with a 6++/6+++? I'll take that. Especially on a night like last night, when they roll 4 sixes to save and a squad that should have been dead just loses a shardcarbine.
A venom would have not even lost a unit though with those same rolls - it likely would have had to take less saves too.
But a Venom also can't carry 4 dark lances/blasters. You could run an index squad of Trueborn, sure, but they're gonna cost the same as the Scourges to begin with, and then you're paying another 70-85 points on top of that, almost the cost of another squad of Scourges, for a transport to put them in. A transport that, unless you spend a CP for screaming jets, is on the table potentially getting shot up if you don't get turn 1. Yeah, Venoms are hardy little tanks, but it still takes on lucky melta roll and some unlucky rolls for the transports to cripple a squad your paid significantly more for.
I don't necessarily think it's even worse than Scourges, I just don't think it's better
Xenomancers wrote: It's too bad jetbikes can't take shredders - that's where I want to put them.
I hadn't even thought of this. God, that would be amazeballs. Like, shredders are meh compared to blasters and lances on kabs and such, but 12 bikers coming in with like 16 RF splinter shots and 4d6 shredders on an unsuspecting infantry unit would make my day. Would honestly be super fluffy, too.
Xenomancers wrote: I would call those ynnari armies. Was speaking pure dark eldar. As you posted on the last page - ynnari DE is going to be a black heart spearhead with ravagers just to unlock AOV. Nerfs in APR FAQ will determine the rest of the list - it's probably going to be mostly eldar though.
Archon I see as useless because you can get a better reroll 1's which affects units inside of transports. Making his reroll 1's redundant or ineffectual as DE prefer to stay inside transports and shoot out of them. Would have much preferred he went back to being a CC monster than a buffer.
As far as scourges go - I guess 4 shredders can give you some legit anti infantry firepower. However - I think it's just to fragile to rely on. Warriors in raiders with splinter racks will still do better I think overall. Hitting more/ and wounding more produce the same results.
I'd call those competitive Aeldari armies. Until GW nerfs allies somehow compared to pure factions, you may as well consider everything under your main faction umbrella to be a tool that you have. Wyches and kabs are as much the same faction as Wyches and Ynnari or Kabs and Craftworlds.
We'll see how April FAQ goes. It will probably take only a small tap to knock both Ynnari and CWE down and put DE as the workhorse of competitive aeldari, with Alaitoc as a splash ally to get whatever units are still good. If the FAQ knocks off Dark Reapers and Shining Spears and gives Ynnari a flat nope on using DE or CWE strats, you're going to see allied CWE battalions to get some min ranger squads, some WWP guardian squads, and a farseer+Autarch skyrunner, and that's going to be the extent of CWE in competitive aeldari lists.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or you can take poisoned tongue and a webway portal and get reroll 1s on both hit and wound.
In the narrow context of JUST flayed skull mounted kabalites...yep, archons are not useful as a buffer for that.
Luckily you can take combat build archons in venoms with courts, and they're really solid.
you can also take buffer archons with poisoned tongue/obsidian rose foot squads, and they're good.
You can also take buffer archons with ravagers, and they're good.
You can also put an anti-psychic hat on him vs a psyker heavy list, and you're going to get good value out of him.
You can take 1 archon and make him really solid in a variety of ways. It's when your list has 3 of them that they become crappy tax units.
Or you can take poisoned tongue and a webway portal and get reroll 1s on both hit and wound.
What are you using the WWP on?
the_scotsman wrote: You can take 1 archon and make him really solid in a variety of ways. It's when your list has 3 of them that they become crappy tax units.
I'd argue they become crappy tax units after the first.
Oh well, at least I'll have an expendable HQ to throw at the enemy.
vipoid wrote: For a Poison Tongue army, do you think it's worth taking Agonisers on Kabalite warriors (since they get rerolls in combat)?
Also, do you think Blast Pistols are worth it on Kabalites?
I personally do, yes, I normally take 2-3 anyways, only b.c i always get into melee with kabals at some point or another, yeah its 12pts that in total might not do to much, but i have had games where killing that extra model made the difference in melee.
Or you can take poisoned tongue and a webway portal and get reroll 1s on both hit and wound.
What are you using the WWP on?
the_scotsman wrote: You can take 1 archon and make him really solid in a variety of ways. It's when your list has 3 of them that they become crappy tax units.
I'd argue they become crappy tax units after the first.
Oh well, at least I'll have an expendable HQ to throw at the enemy.
No, waste of points. Sybarites want PGLs or nothing IMO. Why would you ever charge your kabs into combat, or if charged, why would you assume you'd survive to swing back?
You webway portal 20 kabalites (maybe 2x20) and just hop an archon to get over to them. With a footprint that size, it shouldn't be hard. Unload a metric crapton of splinter fire into them rerolling 1s on both hit and wound, then if any unit is vulnerable to counterattack use fire and fade to move them away (or FnF to seize an objective/set up a screen)
I like that way better than buying four Raiders to transport my Kabs. Makes better use of our ability to prevent the 2Cp morale strat to wipe big horde units.
It's really unfortunate that tournaments love that 3 detachment limit. I'd love to run 1 patrol of Poison Tongue, 1 Spearhead of Black Heart, 1 patrol of Red Grief and 1 patrol of Prophets of Flesh.
Or you can take poisoned tongue and a webway portal and get reroll 1s on both hit and wound.
What are you using the WWP on?
the_scotsman wrote: You can take 1 archon and make him really solid in a variety of ways. It's when your list has 3 of them that they become crappy tax units.
I'd argue they become crappy tax units after the first.
Oh well, at least I'll have an expendable HQ to throw at the enemy.
No, waste of points. Sybarites want PGLs or nothing IMO. Why would you ever charge your kabs into combat, or if charged, why would you assume you'd survive to swing back?
You webway portal 20 kabalites (maybe 2x20) and just hop an archon to get over to them. With a footprint that size, it shouldn't be hard. Unload a metric crapton of splinter fire into them rerolling 1s on both hit and wound, then if any unit is vulnerable to counterattack use fire and fade to move them away (or FnF to seize an objective/set up a screen)
I like that way better than buying four Raiders to transport my Kabs. Makes better use of our ability to prevent the 2Cp morale strat to wipe big horde units.
It's really unfortunate that tournaments love that 3 detachment limit. I'd love to run 1 patrol of Poison Tongue, 1 Spearhead of Black Heart, 1 patrol of Red Grief and 1 patrol of Prophets of Flesh.
Why? B.c objectives...... 100's of variables in games, thats why "some" players like TAC lists and not pure alpha strike or nothing.
In general, a 20-man squad of Kabalites that deep strikes in, fires at full effectiveness, and then moves 7" in whatever direction it wants is much, MUCH better at claiming objectives than a 10-man squad of kabalites that loses its damage buff if it exits its raider. That's exactly why you see high level players doing the exact same thing with 20 man guardian blobs - not because it's some brainless all-in alpha strike, but because it establishes incredible board control and leaves a lot of room for micro unit placement to matter.
It is objectively more of a TAC element than a transported squad. Also, there's no reason you can't use both, and if you want to fill up a battalion, you have to.
There's nothing particularly tactical in my eyes about spending a few extra points on a melee weapon that will rarely do anything. You can certainly point to some time when 2 slightly better melee attacks made some difference in the game, but you're turning a blind eye to those times that 1 extra splinter shot and 4 points spent elsewhere would have made a much bigger difference. You're basically paying the points to set up a situation where you can give yourself confirmation bias because you now have to separate out the Sybarite's combat dice and see him roll separately. End of the day it's four points, do what you like, I have a bunch of models that I field purely because they look good, but you are taking a tiny hit to the effectiveness of your list.
the_scotsman wrote: In general, a 20-man squad of Kabalites that deep strikes in, fires at full effectiveness, and then moves 7" in whatever direction it wants is much, MUCH better at claiming objectives than a 10-man squad of kabalites that loses its damage buff if it exits its raider. That's exactly why you see high level players doing the exact same thing with 20 man guardian blobs - not because it's some brainless all-in alpha strike, but because it establishes incredible board control and leaves a lot of room for micro unit placement to matter.
It is objectively more of a TAC element than a transported squad. Also, there's no reason you can't use both, and if you want to fill up a battalion, you have to.
There's nothing particularly tactical in my eyes about spending a few extra points on a melee weapon that will rarely do anything. You can certainly point to some time when 2 slightly better melee attacks made some difference in the game, but you're turning a blind eye to those times that 1 extra splinter shot and 4 points spent elsewhere would have made a much bigger difference. You're basically paying the points to set up a situation where you can give yourself confirmation bias because you now have to separate out the Sybarite's combat dice and see him roll separately. End of the day it's four points, do what you like, I have a bunch of models that I field purely because they look good, but you are taking a tiny hit to the effectiveness of your list.
There are other turns in the game too and not everyone plays ITC, some of us play with actual end game objectives.
I feel like there's a lot of hostility here lol. I'm not saying you're not allowed to play mounted Kabalites, the original purpose of the discussion was how to successfully use multiple archons past the first 1/2. if you want to go for a deep striking large kabalite unit, having an archon to support them is a very good use of that Archon, especially if he's also buffing a few transports.
20 Kabalites with 4 shredders and 2 splinter cannons costs 172 points. Very worth dedicating an archon to buff as he moves towards combat, especially if you also want to use him for the Helm of Spite. And that's hardly all your list - it's exactly one unit. For reference, 5 blaster scourges cost 133 points. If I said I was going to include 2 units of those, would you respond with "Well some of us like to play like there's more than one turn in the game"?
I think if you're running enough Kabalite stuff that you need 3 or more archons (which I think for a Kab heavy list is probably where you're at, 1 Battalion plus 1 other detachment to get Black Heart) then you're well suited including some stuff specifically which has good synergy working with archons. Maybe you wouldn't ordinarily want a Court, for instance, but it's very worth including one in a kabal-heavy list because it gives you a not-terrible role for an archon.
You can make the same argument for including some Incubi as well. Objectively incubi aren't great, but they can fit in a Raider with an archon, they have the same or similar offensive profile as him, and they turn him from a weird little unit you'll basically ignore to something that might conceivably hurt or threaten you.
No hostility at all, just saying not everyone plays the same and there are different mission/house rules players play by b.c tournaments made them popular.
At my local games will almost always go to 5-6 rounds and we play about 50/50 missions that will have end game objectives, its important when you have someone throwing 3-10 mans on them and you lost 70% your army, so you dont have enough fire power to kill them off and you also need to get on them your self.
Just trying to show a different perspective that might matter to others. And i feel spending 8-12 points for those end turns is fine, others will not, i was just giving my reason why i take them. I just didnt want to sound like i take them b.c they make me feel good, but b.c they do help me.
I would agree on the issue of agonizers and blast pistols on Kabs. They just aren't worth the points. Keeping Kabs out of CC is a good thing (part of why KotBH's obsession is kind of weak, although balanced by warlord trait), and blast pistols require you to put yourself at risk to use them. I'm a fan of PGLs though, especially with torment grenades.
I mostly play kabalites in venoms, and any upgrade that isn't a blaster is wasted on 5 man squads.
I wouldn't give the pistol even to deepstriking blobs since it can be in range in the turn the unit arrives.
I'd give the blast pistol to succubus and wyches if I'm not short on points though as I really want them to rush towards the enemy while the kabalite are mostly ranged shooting dudes in my games.
About the weapons on reavers: I wouldn't bother in small units, too fragile, just the grav talon that is an auto take for 3 points. But on a big unit of 9-12 bikes? 2-4 blasters could be nice, especially if you can't advance and charge. I'm saying this because as much as I like the Red Grief bonus also Lelith's cult one is very good and if I bring a considerable wych cult force I'd go with the Strife.
You can take 1 archon and make him really solid in a variety of ways. It's when your list has 3 of them that they become crappy tax units.
I agree but we want CPs so we need HQs. A kabal battallion is probably the most effective battallion since wracks are a tax, more than the archon, and wych cults battallions look good and fun but definitely not that easy to play at competitive levels. I think 3+ kabalite units are quite needed for a TAC list, at least in the first period when we don't have much experience with all the synergies.
Right, many Kabal focussed lists will end up with 3 archons. Unless you go the Black Heart airwing detachment route, which gets you down yo only 2 bit you don't get labyrinthine cunning.
I don't agree wracks are a tax. They're good little units at 5 msn squads, 2 to a raider. Ossefactor and EC whip in each one.
....and don't get a 4++ and PFP or easy access to a toughness buff, a solid gun per five, or a good sergeant weapon per five.
I'm not saying Wracks are as good as the first buffed-up 30 man blob of tzaangors, but they're damn similar to subsequent units of tzaangors you still happily see taken. They're durable for their points, have good transports and you don't need tons of them for a battalion or a brigade.
The difference is that every 4 wracks = 5, 40 Wracks = 50 Tzgors, and wounding on 3+ with -1ap vs 4+ 0ap Its numbers and damage vs survivability
But your missing the most important part, DE has Kabals, T-sons has Marines and Cultists to compare them too, when you have Wracks vs Kabals, easy Kabals win most the time, when you have Marines vs Tzgors? Well Tzgors win.
BlaxicanX wrote: What type of builds do you guys think could reliably deal with flyrant spam?
If it's even still an issue i'd use 'masters of the shadowed sky' stratagem for kabal of the flayed skull. More particularly it should work best with your ravagers (needs to go on a kabal unit which most vehicles/flyers can be). Normally you need 3's to hit and 4's vs flyers (plane kind) but after you activate the 1 CP ability your unit gets +1 to hit so i can basically hit flying infantry and bikes on 2's and vs actual flyers 3's.
I'm enjoying my book so far but i have issues. I feel about half the stratagems are good and the rest are meh or not worth taking. We have so many though it's kind of a meh issue. My real issue is having so many freaking patrol detachments. 8 hq's (probably not all kabal) and at least 8 troops for tax is somewhat high. I may not spam stratagems as much as non-dark eldar players think i can. Honestly it may come down to me using about 4 during the first turn and maybe part of turn 2 and then being out of CP's.
Haywire got better but i still don't think it's enough for me to use em. Shredders got significantly better whereas before nobody took them. Shredders may be mediocre or above average now and probably our best anti-infantry shooting atm with just a glance but that was an area we always struggled at since 8th hit. Blasters got good enough to take but not sure that'll change my strategy too much.
Personally for my 2,000 pts list i took 2 detachments of 'kabal of poisoned tongue' and the reason is the stratagem where you can move 3 of said kabal's units anywhere in your deployment after deployment normally ends for just 2 CP. I can basically re-arrange my on foot battle-line and force everything into one corner of the board after tricking the opponent into thinking i was gonna spread out. Totally worth a try in my book unless vs long range gun-lines. The other detachment i took was speed of the kill and that was more for the cult's obsession which gets advance and charge and re-roll failed charge rolls. I did that for the reavers obviously.
Anyway i'm gonna webway portal 2 units only because the warriors would be stuck doing nothing if i didn't. So they'll deepstrike but sadly only 10 strong each. This is more due to model and money limitation than tactics. Also it's not easy to make a list with what i want when a new codex changes what's currently good. If i had my way i'd probably take a couple units of scourge with 4 shredders each. Combined with the warriors having 4 shredders in a unit of 20 models and having 2 of those units for 40 warriors i'd get probably 16 shredders. I don't think they're great but for anti-horde shooting they have some merit. It's probably an average of just over 35 hits and about as many wounds with all those shredders alone with -1 ap. We don't even know what else the other guns might do if there are any. However maybe i'm not taking cost into effect as i only just got the book like 24 hours ago. For scourge a squad of 5 guys with 4 shredders is like 92 points. For warriors it's more like 152 pts but the difference is having 32 poisoned shots at half range after DS vs like 3 to go with shredders. You could go 10 man scourge for same price though with same shredder load-out but that's only 18 poisoned shots extra. Poison still has a point (vs bikes, genestealers and some mid-line troops and tough poorly armored monstrous infantry) but it's not vs hordes and that's where shredders come in.
Our way of dealing with enemy horde infantry will probably be melee like wych and covens units.
The problem with Flyrant spam is their 4++. Taking Anti-Tank isn't viable so you need to burn them down with multiple shots to break though the "ignore 50% of everything" magic barrier. Disintegrator Cannons on Ravagers might work since they are 2 damage.
Okay, so, I gotta ask, why does everyone seem to prefer blasters on bikes? I've personally always preferred lances. Like, yeah, lower strength, but high AP and roll two pick one at half range, for 5 fewer points. And I feel like they fill a nice niche for mid-range toughness models you may not want to waste a blaster or lance shot on. And so many models can take blasters, seems like a good idea to have a bit of variety.
AnFéasógMór wrote: Okay, so, I gotta ask, why does everyone seem to prefer blasters on bikes? I've personally always preferred lances. Like, yeah, lower strength, but high AP and roll two pick one at half range, for 5 fewer points. And I feel like they fill a nice niche for mid-range toughness models you may not want to waste a blaster or lance shot on. And so many models can take blasters, seems like a good idea to have a bit of variety.
Blasters have options to hurt everything, TL do not, need extra punch on vehicle? S8 vs S6, need to kill MW t4? Wounds 2+ instead of 3+.
Mine already have TL's on them (well 6 of them does) so i'll just use HL's personally, but i rather them be Blasters
AnFéasógMór wrote: Okay, so, I gotta ask, why does everyone seem to prefer blasters on bikes?
I used to like Heat Lances because they had more chance to penetrate armour (2d6+6+Lance was usually better than d6+8+Lance) and had twice the chance to explode the vehicle.
However, they're now significantly worse at penetrating armour and their increase in damage at half range is mediocre at best.
Sorry to interupt the in-depth discussion. I've been building up a Dark Eldar (sorry - Drukhari) army for a few months but haven't played any games yet. I really like the look of the new codex, but I'm struggling to build an army out of the models I own at the moment. A mate of mine and I will hopefully be playing a 50 power level army pretty soon, so I'm trying to build a 50pl list. I mentioned a few pages back that I'm delighted that my list got about 20% cheaper, so I get to add more stuff, but separating everything out into the three types in order to make use of obsessions is proving tricky. At the moment, I can't get more than 4 command points (this includes the 3 for being battleforged.) These are the models I own:
I was going to do an outrider detatchment with a cult obsession, and a vanguard (that's the elite one, right?) kabal one with the Incubi, Mandrakes, and Ur-Ghul as the elites. This would of course only give me one more CP anyway. Unfortunately it doesn't work as the Ur-Ghul wouldn't take up a detatchment slot. So I'd have to run that detatchment as a patrol. Can anyone see a solution that doesn't involve spending a load more money? I suppose I could buy another HQ (or proxy one in) and do the three patrols thing. Any other obvious solution anyone can see? I'm very excited to get my guys on the table. I'm certainly not looking for the most effective list, incidentally - the only reason I want more command points is to try out the cool tricks we can now do!
Thanks for reading. Sorry to ask such a low-level question.
AnFéasógMór wrote: Okay, so, I gotta ask, why does everyone seem to prefer blasters on bikes?
I used to like Heat Lances because they had more chance to penetrate armour (2d6+6+Lance was usually better than d6+8+Lance) and had twice the chance to explode the vehicle.
However, they're now significantly worse at penetrating armour and their increase in damage at half range is mediocre at best.
Is it sad i would take blasters over heat lances now even with the points changes? Seriously the only way you could maybe half range with heat lances is on bikes now and it's probably not worth it as strength 6 is depressing at times vs strength 8 esp. considering if you're going to advance with the bikes anyway the chance to hit is going straight into the crapper for the cost and it's already worse to wound. At best heat lance are anti-elite infantry, bikers and medium sized units like hive guard.
AnFéasógMór wrote: Okay, so, I gotta ask, why does everyone seem to prefer blasters on bikes?
I used to like Heat Lances because they had more chance to penetrate armour (2d6+6+Lance was usually better than d6+8+Lance) and had twice the chance to explode the vehicle.
However, they're now significantly worse at penetrating armour and their increase in damage at half range is mediocre at best.
Is it sad i would take blasters over heat lances now even with the points changes? Seriously the only way you could maybe half range with heat lances is on bikes now and it's probably not worth it as strength 6 is depressing at times vs strength 8 esp. considering if you're going to advance with the bikes anyway the chance to hit is going straight into the crapper for the cost and it's already worse to wound. At best heat lance are anti-elite infantry, bikers and medium sized units like hive guard.
Well, I guess that's sort of my point. Anti elite-infantry is pretty much how I use them. Like, my average 2000 point list has blasters or DL on something like 20% of my models already, but not a ton to fill that gap between S8 weapons and Splinter and S3 weapons. Having some cheaper S6 weapons let's me focus blasters on the big stuff, while having a few spare points for extra anti-infantry models.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just feel like I run into a ton of T5 models, where a heat lance is as effective as a DL/Blaster for fewer points.
Sorry i was more commenting on vipoid without seeing the comment he was commenting to.
I'd still say i'd rather use blasters. Str 8 seems to have far more utility (it can hurt tanks and monsters basically). I don't have to get super close to get the only really redeeming feature of it. The only boost outside of the re-rollable damage at suicide range is ap -5 and most things with an armor save that good also have some sort of invulnerable save of at least a 5+ making a blaster or dark lance's ap more than sufficient.
I suppose my big issue is the idea you'd have to advance, shoot something and then charge something else. Strength 6 is already bad enough but if you want me to hit on 4's it's just not gonna do it for me. Even if i don't advance i'm just not feeling it. Sorry i used to love the idea of heat lances but in 8th it's just no longer there. They were basically a tank popper back then.
So I am getting a bunch of Dark Eldar for around $250 US and I was wondering if I did alright. I think so, but I've only seen previews and what I've played around with on battlescribe. I think I got a solid start so far for a good price, though I have to do a bit of touch up work on the Venoms, Raiders and Incubi such as replacing sails or regluing some parts back on.
CaptainSomas wrote: So I am getting a bunch of Dark Eldar for around $250 US and I was wondering if I did alright. I think so, but I've only seen previews and what I've played around with on battlescribe. I think I got a solid start so far for a good price, though I have to do a bit of touch up work on the Venoms, Raiders and Incubi such as replacing sails or regluing some parts back on.
I mean, that's somewhere around like $550, $600 worth of models.
That's actually similar to how I got into DE. Friend of mine gave me like 15 Reavers, 10 Scourges, 10 Wyches, 40 or so Kabs, 3 Raiders, a Ravager, a Crimson Hunter (that I converted to a razorwing), 2 archons, 2 Succubi, a haemi, a medusae, a lhamean, 15 hellions, and a couple other things for $100, was like $700-750 worth of models. Now whenever I buy new stuff I point out to my wife that I still haven't even reach the point that I've spent half of what my army is worth. Spoilers below on how that argument goes over.
CaptainSomas wrote: So I am getting a bunch of Dark Eldar for around $250 US and I was wondering if I did alright. I think so, but I've only seen previews and what I've played around with on battlescribe. I think I got a solid start so far for a good price, though I have to do a bit of touch up work on the Venoms, Raiders and Incubi such as replacing sails or regluing some parts back on.
I'd recommend magnetizing the sails and poles on the Raiders, Ravagers and Venoms to prevent them from bending or being a general nuisance for storage.
Also, I must point this out, if we are running into t5-t6 "elite" units they don't normally have the vehicle keyword. Even tau crisis battlesuits are not vehicles. So in these instances our basic splinter weapons will do fine. 20 warriors with 2 splinter cannons rest bare costs 140 points and has 48 shots in double tap range, hits on 3's so 36 hits, wounds on 4's (oh look at the cute t5 tau.... Don't care) so 18 wounds, they will fail some of those saves. And if they kill your squad in retaliation who cares? It's 140pts, your dark eldar. You brought 40 more warriors right? And who shoots at warriors when they have hellions / reavers / ravagers / mandrakes / scourges / talos to shoot at? If my opponent is shooting my warriors it's either a case of nothing else in range or they simply are afraid of the wrong thing.
Also I want to say I love posion weapons. I know a lot of people don't seem to like them but they give us such a huge advantage over other armies. They take an enemy models stat and simply ignore it. Be it shooting at 20 guardsmen with the 20 warriors above (which would be 12 dead guardsmen), 10 Marines (6 dead marines) or a hive tyrant (6 wounds to a hive tyrant) your going to hurt whatever you throw the numbers at. And for the stuff that we don't hurt (vehicles) we have blasters and dark lances. Everything else is simply a nice additional tool for us to use, but in the end the basic, original weapons of the 3rd edition Dark Eldar will do all the work if you need them to. You can not say the same thing for other armies.
He sent me pics and some looked like they snapped off..not a deal breaker, I can glue or magnatize easier haha. But yeah, did the math and I'm coming out pretty well. Just need to pick up the book and see how to expand what I'm getting later on.
CaptainSomas wrote: He sent me pics and some looked like they snapped off..not a deal breaker, I can glue or magnatize easier haha. But yeah, did the math and I'm coming out pretty well. Just need to pick up the book and see how to expand what I'm getting later on.
I mean, right off the bat, I'd say you want 9 more Reavers. Def a Succubus, so you can actually run a cult. I'd personally recommend another pack of Scourges, Scourge are beast. And some Haemi units to go with that Haemonculus; I'd recommend 2 Talos and a Cronos even if you run nothing else Coven. I'm kind of a fan of Hellions, but the points drop to Reavers made them less useful unless you're playing a really large match with points to spare.
What are people's feelings on Sslyth lately? You pay 3 times the price of a Wrack per model but they compare well to Coven of Twelve Wracks in terms of durability and thanks to their higher strength and all the re-rolls have pretty equal melee damage output while actually being able to contribute some ranged firepower into the mix as well. The main niggle is that at LD6 i wouldn't want to take full units of 4.
I'm wondering if Sslyth can be a way we can actually get some meaningful use out of a second Archon when taking two Kabal patrols.
Lithanial wrote: What are people's feelings on Sslyth lately? You pay 3 times the price of a Wrack per model but they compare well to Coven of Twelve Wracks in terms of durability and thanks to their higher strength and all the re-rolls have pretty equal melee damage output while actually being able to contribute some ranged firepower into the mix as well. The main niggle is that at LD6 i wouldn't want to take full units of 4.
I'm wondering if Sslyth can be a way we can actually get some meaningful use out of a second Archon when taking two Kabal patrols.
Running one as a bodyguard/chaff for my melee blender Flayed Skull Archon. S5, T5, 3W with a 5++....he's a durable shooty-stabby snek for 27 points. Would take one just for your warlord to help prevent insta-gibs.
Lithanial wrote: What are people's feelings on Sslyth lately? You pay 3 times the price of a Wrack per model but they compare well to Coven of Twelve Wracks in terms of durability and thanks to their higher strength and all the re-rolls have pretty equal melee damage output while actually being able to contribute some ranged firepower into the mix as well.
I've been contemplating using some with my Archon, since they'll have the same range as his Blaster or Soul Seeker.
The thing is, 4 of them seem rather expensive. Maybe just a couple?
Lithanial wrote: The main niggle is that at LD6 i wouldn't want to take full units of 4.
Isn't their Ld irrelevant though, given that they're single-model units?
Also I want to say I love posion weapons. I know a lot of people don't seem to like them but they give us such a huge advantage over other armies. They take an enemy models stat and simply ignore it. Be it shooting at 20 guardsmen with the 20 warriors above (which would be 12 dead guardsmen), 10 Marines (6 dead marines) or a hive tyrant (6 wounds to a hive tyrant) your going to hurt whatever you throw the numbers at. And for the stuff that we don't hurt (vehicles) we have blasters and dark lances. Everything else is simply a nice additional tool for us to use, but in the end the basic, original weapons of the 3rd edition Dark Eldar will do all the work if you need them to. You can not say the same thing for other armies.
I mean, this is why poison weapons aren't great. They're terrible against T3, and that's what you're most often going to want to shoot with them. They're pretty fairly priced against T4, but you tend not to see a whole bunch of T4, and what you do see will often have a 3+ save and possibly even multiple wounds such that other weapons do much more. And then they're merely okay against big monsters -- a Leviathan flyrant only pays about the same as a bolter Marine per 3+ wound, and even Mortarion isn't paying much more than this when you account for his FNP. High toughness units actually tend to pay less per wound than low toughness units; they're supposed to make up for it by being vulnerable to multi-damage weapons. Warriors are good because they're super-cheap, but you'd trade splinter rifles for shuriken catapults in a second.
Dionysodorus wrote: I mean, this is why poison weapons aren't great. They're terrible against T3, and that's what you're most often going to want to shoot with them. They're pretty fairly priced against T4, but you tend not to see a whole bunch of T4, and what you do see will often have a 3+ save and possibly even multiple wounds such that other weapons do much more. And then they're merely okay against big monsters -- a Leviathan flyrant only pays about the same as a bolter Marine per 3+ wound, and even Mortarion isn't paying much more than this when you account for his FNP. High toughness units actually tend to pay less per wound than low toughness units; they're supposed to make up for it by being vulnerable to multi-damage weapons. Warriors are good because they're super-cheap, but you'd trade splinter rifles for shuriken catapults in a second.
I'd say that poison has gotten drastically worse against monsters.
Their wounds have increased dramatically since 5th, but poison shooting has barely improved at all.
Dionysodorus wrote: I mean, this is why poison weapons aren't great. They're terrible against T3, and that's what you're most often going to want to shoot with them. They're pretty fairly priced against T4, but you tend not to see a whole bunch of T4, and what you do see will often have a 3+ save and possibly even multiple wounds such that other weapons do much more. And then they're merely okay against big monsters -- a Leviathan flyrant only pays about the same as a bolter Marine per 3+ wound, and even Mortarion isn't paying much more than this when you account for his FNP. High toughness units actually tend to pay less per wound than low toughness units; they're supposed to make up for it by being vulnerable to multi-damage weapons. Warriors are good because they're super-cheap, but you'd trade splinter rifles for shuriken catapults in a second.
I'd say that poison has gotten drastically worse against monsters.
Their wounds have increased dramatically since 5th, but poison shooting has barely improved at all.
Poison hasn't gotten better at all, its literally the same since 4th and its honestly worst now b.c of the wound chart, before S3-S4 would would on a 6+, now its 5+ vs our 4+, and if a 5+ to wound has AP, depending if its -1 or -2, its equal or even better than a 4+ AP-0
Poison hasn't gotten better at all, its literally the same since 4th and its honestly worst now b.c of the wound chart, before S3-S4 would would on a 6+, now its 5+ vs our 4+, and if a 5+ to wound has AP, depending if its -1 or -2, its equal or even better than a 4+ AP-0
I was thinking in terms of price cuts, though even then I'm not sure they make up for the loss of The Duke or Splinter Racks being nerfed to hell.
And that's a very good point about the new to-wound chart.
I did the math earlier so not going to again and going off memory, so if im off im sorry. But "How many Kabals is needed to make Splinter Racks worth it"
I did the math based off 3 Splinter Racks, b.c thats 30pts and a Kabal unit is 30pts and i wanted to know when are Splinter Racks better than more Kabals.
Basically it was 7 Splinter Rifle Kabals equals 5 Kabals, so unless you have no Room, dont want more vehicles, more Kabals are almost always better since you get same shots and more wounds.
If you are limited on Points/Raiders then SR's are better, but you want to get at least 7 guys (so a 10man unit with 2-3 weapons is fine). Its never worth it for 4/5 Splinter Rifles.
Amishprn86 wrote: I did the math earlier so not going to again and going off memory, so if im off im sorry. But "How many Kabals is needed to make Splinter Racks worth it"
I did the math based off 3 Splinter Racks, b.c thats 30pts and a Kabal unit is 30pts and i wanted to know when are Splinter Racks better than more Kabals.
Basically it was 7 Splinter Rifle Kabals equals 5 Kabals, so unless you have no Room, dont want more vehicles, more Kabals are almost always better since you get same shots and more wounds.
If you are limited on Points/Raiders then SR's are better, but you want to get at least 7 guys (so a 10man unit with 2-3 weapons is fine). Its never worth it for 4/5 Splinter Rifles.
That's good to know.
I don't suppose rerolling 1s via Flayed Skull makes any difference?
Amishprn86 wrote: I did the math earlier so not going to again and going off memory, so if im off im sorry. But "How many Kabals is needed to make Splinter Racks worth it"
I did the math based off 3 Splinter Racks, b.c thats 30pts and a Kabal unit is 30pts and i wanted to know when are Splinter Racks better than more Kabals.
Basically it was 7 Splinter Rifle Kabals equals 5 Kabals, so unless you have no Room, dont want more vehicles, more Kabals are almost always better since you get same shots and more wounds.
If you are limited on Points/Raiders then SR's are better, but you want to get at least 7 guys (so a 10man unit with 2-3 weapons is fine). Its never worth it for 4/5 Splinter Rifles.
That's good to know.
I don't suppose rerolling 1s via Flayed Skull makes any difference?
It definitely does - Flayed Skull makes Splinter Racks 25% more effective (assuming 7 rifles per raider). The racks net you 3.36 more hits from a raider, up from 9.33 on average with no racks.
I'm not entirely certain why people think they're so heavily nerfed, to be honest. Old splinter racks only gave more benefit if you had a splinter cannon in the squad, and were in rapid fire range, which tended to be a tall order in 7th when moving at all meant your SC was snapping, and your movement before shooting was capped at 6". Also, IIRC, back in 7th they costed 15 points.
I'm surprised at all the praise I'm finding for the Black Heart Obsession, yes the Warlord Trait and Stratagem are amazing but the Obsession and Relic are just bad when compared to the other 3 Obsessions. Given that all our Vehicles are T5/6 and the majority of them have 10 wounds or less, the 6+++ is worth about a single extra wound per vehicle. Given that no army out there has any trouble massively over killing our vehicles I just can't see anyone getting much use out of it on anything other than Voidraven's, Reapers and the Tantalus. I also see the relic as rubbish, everyone's talking about having an Archon next to Ravagers for re-roll 1's to hit and wound, but we're not space marines. You can't castle up and expect to do well as with 36" range guns you can't cover the board and we can't trade volleys like that with marines or guard, and rarely do I find myself having the whole army moving in the same direction, objectives and enemy positions dictate where I go.
For me it's quite clearly Flayed Skull, we struggle with anti infantry so getting more hits out of our splinter weapons goes some way to help with that whilst the extra 3" movement on our vehicles is excellent, Ravagers having a 50" threat range normally only get 2" of space to play with in deployment when going up against 48" weapons like lascannons, and thats just not enough, going to 5" will help a lot.
Obsidian Rose helps a lot in that respect as well though pushes the safety margin up to 8" instead, this gives me a lot more freedom in my set up. Voidravens with Dark Scythes gain nicely out of this as well, the DS is still the better weapon for it due to the more relaible and higher maximum damage out put but the 24" range along with the minimum 20" move has on occasion left me without any viable targets for it, pushing that out to 30" range will certainly help there. Trueborn with 18" range shredders could also be a very good option for clearing hords, I look forward to trying 2 squads in a Raider to see how much they do.
Poisoned Tongue I think is going to end up as more of a fluff choice. It's an OK buff to poisoned weapons but Flayed Skull works out better whilst Kabal is not the melee part of the army.
the_scotsman wrote: I'm not entirely certain why people think they're so heavily nerfed, to be honest. Old splinter racks only gave more benefit if you had a splinter cannon in the squad, and were in rapid fire range, which tended to be a tall order in 7th when moving at all meant your SC was snapping, and your movement before shooting was capped at 6". Also, IIRC, back in 7th they costed 15 points.
I was thinking more of 5th, tbh.
The reason I say they've been nerfed is that every other TL weapon had their shots doubled in 8th in place of the reroll. And then you have Splinter Racks, which gain you an extra hit on a to-hit roll of 6.
Imateria wrote: I'm surprised at all the praise I'm finding for the Black Heart Obsession, yes the Warlord Trait and Stratagem are amazing but the Obsession and Relic are just bad when compared to the other 3 Obsessions. Given that all our Vehicles are T5/6 and the majority of them have 10 wounds or less, the 6+++ is worth about a single extra wound per vehicle. Given that no army out there has any trouble massively over killing our vehicles I just can't see anyone getting much use out of it on anything other than Voidraven's, Reapers and the Tantalus. I also see the relic as rubbish, everyone's talking about having an Archon next to Ravagers for re-roll 1's to hit and wound, but we're not space marines. You can't castle up and expect to do well as with 36" range guns you can't cover the board and we can't trade volleys like that with marines or guard, and rarely do I find myself having the whole army moving in the same direction, objectives and enemy positions dictate where I go.
The other aspect for me is that I didn't sign up to Dark Eldar to play Imperial Guard.
Excuse me, waiter, I ordered an Archon, not a Master of Ordnance.
Amishprn86 wrote: I did the math earlier so not going to again and going off memory, so if im off im sorry. But "How many Kabals is needed to make Splinter Racks worth it"
I did the math based off 3 Splinter Racks, b.c thats 30pts and a Kabal unit is 30pts and i wanted to know when are Splinter Racks better than more Kabals.
Basically it was 7 Splinter Rifle Kabals equals 5 Kabals, so unless you have no Room, dont want more vehicles, more Kabals are almost always better since you get same shots and more wounds.
If you are limited on Points/Raiders then SR's are better, but you want to get at least 7 guys (so a 10man unit with 2-3 weapons is fine). Its never worth it for 4/5 Splinter Rifles.
That's good to know.
I don't suppose rerolling 1s via Flayed Skull makes any difference?
It definitely does - Flayed Skull makes Splinter Racks 25% more effective (assuming 7 rifles per raider). The racks net you 3.36 more hits from a raider, up from 9.33 on average with no racks.
I'm not entirely certain why people think they're so heavily nerfed, to be honest. Old splinter racks only gave more benefit if you had a splinter cannon in the squad, and were in rapid fire range, which tended to be a tall order in 7th when moving at all meant your SC was snapping, and your movement before shooting was capped at 6". Also, IIRC, back in 7th they costed 15 points.
I didnt think about that, that is very good to know as well, sounds good.
Imateria wrote: I'm surprised at all the praise I'm finding for the Black Heart Obsession, yes the Warlord Trait and Stratagem are amazing but the Obsession and Relic are just bad when compared to the other 3 Obsessions. Given that all our Vehicles are T5/6 and the majority of them have 10 wounds or less, the 6+++ is worth about a single extra wound per vehicle. Given that no army out there has any trouble massively over killing our vehicles I just can't see anyone getting much use out of it on anything other than Voidraven's, Reapers and the Tantalus. I also see the relic as rubbish, everyone's talking about having an Archon next to Ravagers for re-roll 1's to hit and wound, but we're not space marines. You can't castle up and expect to do well as with 36" range guns you can't cover the board and we can't trade volleys like that with marines or guard, and rarely do I find myself having the whole army moving in the same direction, objectives and enemy positions dictate where I go.
For me it's quite clearly Flayed Skull, we struggle with anti infantry so getting more hits out of our splinter weapons goes some way to help with that whilst the extra 3" movement on our vehicles is excellent, Ravagers having a 50" threat range normally only get 2" of space to play with in deployment when going up against 48" weapons like lascannons, and thats just not enough, going to 5" will help a lot.
Obsidian Rose helps a lot in that respect as well though pushes the safety margin up to 8" instead, this gives me a lot more freedom in my set up. Voidravens with Dark Scythes gain nicely out of this as well, the DS is still the better weapon for it due to the more relaible and higher maximum damage out put but the 24" range along with the minimum 20" move has on occasion left me without any viable targets for it, pushing that out to 30" range will certainly help there. Trueborn with 18" range shredders could also be a very good option for clearing hords, I look forward to trying 2 squads in a Raider to see how much they do.
Poisoned Tongue I think is going to end up as more of a fluff choice. It's an OK buff to poisoned weapons but Flayed Skull works out better whilst Kabal is not the melee part of the army.
I think the Writ is just generally solid, rather than mind-bogglingly OP, and if you're playing a primarily Kabal army, there are few relics you're going to want more.
Helm of Spite: Sure, if you're facing heavy psykers and you have an archon with a court.
Many Crappy Pistols/Grenades: Pass.
Armor of Misery: Underrated in my opinion, because unlike the 4++ relic it doesn't need you to wait for your shadowfield to break. You can happily take 3+ saves vs ap0 weapons and 2++ saves vs APhigher weapons, but also requires you to be taking Obsidian Rose, which I feel is more of a niche subfaction purely for the deep striking warrior shtick/42" range dark lance ravagers are kind of nice I guess.
Djinn Blade: Good, but I think the problem is it has a lot of the "sexy factor" compared to the Writ. You're likely to get more mileage out of the Writ, even if you just get one good punch in with your 3 ravagers you want that to land hard.
I don't see the writ as "standing around trading punches" at all. Your archon starts on the board somewhere, your ravagers any that cant be out of LOS start in deep strike. Then just deep strike them down anywhere near the Archon and deliver one big nasty blow - exactly how ravagers are supposed to work in fluff.
9 dark lances without the writ deal 14 damage on average to standard T7 3+ vehicles. With the writ, they do 19.5. That's a pretty solid use of an archon, and a kabal list will usually have to figure out how to make 3 archons work.
Nobody's talking about black Heart being super good with Kabalite Warriors, it's clearly the worst with them. It is however probably the best trait for Ravagers and Flyers, so people are looking at taking either 3-ravager spearheads or flyer wing detachments of Black heart.
I think the Writ is just generally solid, rather than mind-bogglingly OP, and if you're playing a primarily Kabal army, there are few relics you're going to want more.
Helm of Spite: Sure, if you're facing heavy psykers and you have an archon with a court.
Many Crappy Pistols/Grenades: Pass.
Armor of Misery: Underrated in my opinion, because unlike the 4++ relic it doesn't need you to wait for your shadowfield to break. You can happily take 3+ saves vs ap0 weapons and 2++ saves vs APhigher weapons, but also requires you to be taking Obsidian Rose, which I feel is more of a niche subfaction purely for the deep striking warrior shtick/42" range dark lance ravagers are kind of nice I guess.
Djinn Blade: Good, but I think the problem is it has a lot of the "sexy factor" compared to the Writ. You're likely to get more mileage out of the Writ, even if you just get one good punch in with your 3 ravagers you want that to land hard.
Regarding the pistols, do you think Soul Seeker is that bad? It seems pretty decent to me.
I think the Writ is just generally solid, rather than mind-bogglingly OP, and if you're playing a primarily Kabal army, there are few relics you're going to want more.
Helm of Spite: Sure, if you're facing heavy psykers and you have an archon with a court.
Many Crappy Pistols/Grenades: Pass.
Armor of Misery: Underrated in my opinion, because unlike the 4++ relic it doesn't need you to wait for your shadowfield to break. You can happily take 3+ saves vs ap0 weapons and 2++ saves vs APhigher weapons, but also requires you to be taking Obsidian Rose, which I feel is more of a niche subfaction purely for the deep striking warrior shtick/42" range dark lance ravagers are kind of nice I guess.
Djinn Blade: Good, but I think the problem is it has a lot of the "sexy factor" compared to the Writ. You're likely to get more mileage out of the Writ, even if you just get one good punch in with your 3 ravagers you want that to land hard.
Regarding the pistols, do you think Soul Seeker is that bad? It seems pretty decent to me.
SS is situational, and in the situation where I'd take it, I'd likely be taking another relic instead.
In my estimation, the difference between a succubus with and without a relic, and the difference between a haemonculus with and without a relic is much bigger than an archon with and without a relic. So, in the situation where I'm running the triple patrol detachment (which is when I'd be most likely to be dipping into Obsidian rose) I'll have a succubus to take, say, the Blood Glaive, or the Tryptch Whip, and I'd have a Haemonculus to maybe take the Vexator Mask on.
That's the nice thing about our relics though: Most of them are good, at least in some situations. If you had the Spirit Sting maybe paired with a large coven detachment with a lot of wracks and Haemonculi packing Hexrifles, the sting would help you put even more pressure on characters.
I think part of the reason the Writ is so heavily considered is because of just how universal the desire for Agents of Vect and Labyrinthine Cunning is. They're just shockingly good. And the writ gives you a good use for the archon while keeping your warlord safe to cunn labyrinthinely the whole battle long.
Imateria wrote: I'm surprised at all the praise I'm finding for the Black Heart Obsession, yes the Warlord Trait and Stratagem are amazing but the Obsession and Relic are just bad when compared to the other 3 Obsessions. Given that all our Vehicles are T5/6 and the majority of them have 10 wounds or less, the 6+++ is worth about a single extra wound per vehicle. Given that no army out there has any trouble massively over killing our vehicles I just can't see anyone getting much use out of it on anything other than Voidraven's, Reapers and the Tantalus. I also see the relic as rubbish, everyone's talking about having an Archon next to Ravagers for re-roll 1's to hit and wound, but we're not space marines. You can't castle up and expect to do well as with 36" range guns you can't cover the board and we can't trade volleys like that with marines or guard, and rarely do I find myself having the whole army moving in the same direction, objectives and enemy positions dictate where I go.
For me it's quite clearly Flayed Skull, we struggle with anti infantry so getting more hits out of our splinter weapons goes some way to help with that whilst the extra 3" movement on our vehicles is excellent, Ravagers having a 50" threat range normally only get 2" of space to play with in deployment when going up against 48" weapons like lascannons, and thats just not enough, going to 5" will help a lot.
Obsidian Rose helps a lot in that respect as well though pushes the safety margin up to 8" instead, this gives me a lot more freedom in my set up. Voidravens with Dark Scythes gain nicely out of this as well, the DS is still the better weapon for it due to the more relaible and higher maximum damage out put but the 24" range along with the minimum 20" move has on occasion left me without any viable targets for it, pushing that out to 30" range will certainly help there. Trueborn with 18" range shredders could also be a very good option for clearing hords, I look forward to trying 2 squads in a Raider to see how much they do.
Poisoned Tongue I think is going to end up as more of a fluff choice. It's an OK buff to poisoned weapons but Flayed Skull works out better whilst Kabal is not the melee part of the army.
I think the Writ is just generally solid, rather than mind-bogglingly OP, and if you're playing a primarily Kabal army, there are few relics you're going to want more.
Helm of Spite: Sure, if you're facing heavy psykers and you have an archon with a court.
Many Crappy Pistols/Grenades: Pass.
Armor of Misery: Underrated in my opinion, because unlike the 4++ relic it doesn't need you to wait for your shadowfield to break. You can happily take 3+ saves vs ap0 weapons and 2++ saves vs APhigher weapons, but also requires you to be taking Obsidian Rose, which I feel is more of a niche subfaction purely for the deep striking warrior shtick/42" range dark lance ravagers are kind of nice I guess.
Djinn Blade: Good, but I think the problem is it has a lot of the "sexy factor" compared to the Writ. You're likely to get more mileage out of the Writ, even if you just get one good punch in with your 3 ravagers you want that to land hard.
I don't see the writ as "standing around trading punches" at all. Your archon starts on the board somewhere, your ravagers any that cant be out of LOS start in deep strike. Then just deep strike them down anywhere near the Archon and deliver one big nasty blow - exactly how ravagers are supposed to work in fluff.
9 dark lances without the writ deal 14 damage on average to standard T7 3+ vehicles. With the writ, they do 19.5. That's a pretty solid use of an archon, and a kabal list will usually have to figure out how to make 3 archons work.
Nobody's talking about black Heart being super good with Kabalite Warriors, it's clearly the worst with them. It is however probably the best trait for Ravagers and Flyers, so people are looking at taking either 3-ravager spearheads or flyer wing detachments of Black heart.
Consider me completely unconvinced, deep striking or not my Ravagers are unlikely to all be bunched up at one time, at best I only ever see 2 getting much use out of the Writ per turn. Same goes for the Black Heart Obsession on vehicles Falyed Skull or Obsidian Rose is just flat out better.
The Writ isn't bad, buuuuuuuuut, I think when you compare it to some of the Cult and Coven relics it's just not worth it. I tend to give my red grief Succubus the blood glaive (I mean, this is an autotake to me, especially if you luck out and can manage to double up +1S rolling for Stimm Addict, turning her into a one woman tank buster) and my PoF Haemi the Vexator Mask (super useful, charge a squad of wracks and a Talos into a big, shooty unit, denying them overwatch by sending the Haemi in First, and if the combat goes two rounds, relegate them to last place where I don't have to worry about them). At that point it becomes an issue of "is the writ 2CP extra worth of solid" and that's a definite no.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, if you really want to bunch up ravagers together, I'd probably make them Coven and bunch them up around a Haemi anyway. The added survivability of making S6 weapons wound on 5+ seems like a better benefit (for free) than rerolling ones (for 1 or 2 CP, assuming you're giving away other artefacts)
1) 3-patrol detachment, I take a kabal patrol of BH because I want my Labyrinthine and I want my Agents. But I don't want to give up my rerolls of 1 to hit or 1 to wound from Flayed Skull or Poisoned Tongue! So I take 20 warriors with shredders and splinter cannons as my 1 troop, I take the Writ on my Archon, and I advance him up to get him within 6 of my webwayed warriors. They reroll both hit and wound on their big attack, then I can even Fire and Fade them so they're controlling a huge swathe of the board.
2) I take him with Ravagers, try to keep him in range of them. As you said, it makes them a bit more awkward to maneuver, you trade that off for a not-inconsiderable amount of firepower.
That's it. It's a situational relic, like most of our relics. I guess my thing is, that's not at all a bad thing. Relics shouldn't be always good or always bad. You should build around them.
Now, as for BH vs other traits for vehicles...I'm not sure what you're on about.
The only time I'd ever consider it is for Ravagers or Flyers.
Flyers: 6++, and access to Agents of Vect, vs
+3" move, and reroll 1s to hit with any Razorwing Splinter Rifles. Um...I'll take BH here.
+6" range, on vehicles that can move 60"? I'll take BH here too.
So, we look at ravagers.
+3" move vs 6++: I like the 6++ most of the time here. Ravagers still move 14" and shoot at full BS with 36" range guns.
+6" range. Here's where it's a real choice. +6" range is mighty nice on those ravagers. But then you have to consider the stratagem. Ravagers can't use Failure is Not an Option. Everyone can use Agents of Vect.
I think that scourges are still quite solid. They bring a lot more firepower/point than do even ravagers, which we already all agree are very solid. 128 points for 4 blasters = 32 points per shot, vs 150 for 3 dark lances for 50 points per shot. Thats quite an improvement, and they are immune to T1 strikes for free. They are definitely more fragile, that's for sure though. Incubi also have a role, although with the impovement in wyches and wracks it definitely has fallen away a little. They still hit harder than any other choice.
I agree that the HQ thing remains a problem, however. I'm really struggling to find a use for the 2nd of most characters, and battalions demand 2....
Regarding the Writ of the Living Muse, the flavour behind it seems outright bizarre.
I'll confess to not being a grand sage when it comes to DE, but are they really invigorated by some guy reading the words of Vect? That's the sort of thing I'd expect from one of the Imperium factions being read the words of the God Emperor.
Also, I've been repeatedly told that no Archon would ever have wings, yet it seems no one has a problem with about half of them lugging around iron tablets so that they can bore their Ravager crews to death with them.
And why an iron tablet? I know Vect has lived for a long time, but I'm pretty sure it was well past the Iron Age in the Dark City by the time he was born. Could they not maybe have carved his words into a lighter material? Or maybe have them in an ebook? And if you desperately need them on an iron tablet for some reason, could you at least use something else when going on a raid?
Sorry, but for some reason this really bugs me. It's like they took an artefact right out of Warhammer Fantasy Battles and just changed the name on it to 'Vect'.
Lithanial wrote: The main niggle is that at LD6 i wouldn't want to take full units of 4.
Isn't their Ld irrelevant though, given that they're single-model units?
Oh geez that's rather brutal for an opponent actually trying to shoot at them.... like, make your opponent want to punch you in the face brutal. Although it's equally brutal on the amount of deployments a Court of the Archon adds to your force which may or may not be of importance depending on your list.... plus all those charge rolls....
I kind of hope they get FAQ'd into one unit per Court since they are no longer characters, just for ease of game flow on all sides, but I certainly won't hold my breath.
Despite those flow niggles though, the following infantry core split over 2 patrols feels quite nice for actually making use of two Archons.
---
Archon 1 - Warlord Loadout of choice
Archon 2 - Sslyth Babysitter with possible Helm of Spite (Try and dig that out of a nest of 6 Sslyth)
6 Sslyth split across 2 Courts
10 Man Kabalite Warriors - PGL, Splinter Cannon, 2x Blaster
10 Man Kabalite Warriors - PGL, Splinter Cannon, 2x Blaster
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You get around 36 Splinter hits out to 18" from the Sslyth and Kabalites with all the buffs and it comes in pretty cheap too costing just a little over 500 points so leaves plenty of room to expand.
vipoid wrote: Regarding the Writ of the Living Muse, the flavour behind it seems outright bizarre.
I'll confess to not being a grand sage when it comes to DE, but are they really invigorated by some guy reading the words of Vect? That's the sort of thing I'd expect from one of the Imperium factions being read the words of the God Emperor.
Also, I've been repeatedly told that no Archon would ever have wings, yet it seems no one has a problem with about half of them lugging around iron tablets so that they can bore their Ravager crews to death with them.
And why an iron tablet? I know Vect has lived for a long time, but I'm pretty sure it was well past the Iron Age in the Dark City by the time he was born. Could they not maybe have carved his words into a lighter material? Or maybe have them in an ebook? And if you desperately need them on an iron tablet for some reason, could you at least use something else when going on a raid?
Sorry, but for some reason this really bugs me. It's like they took an artefact right out of Warhammer Fantasy Battles and just changed the name on it to 'Vect'.
You could just model the archon reading from the tablets in a hat as he live-dictates the book of Drukhari to the Ravager crews so later on they can form the church of the latter day muses.
Alternatively, you could model him with a big beard breaking the tablets over his knee after coming down from the spire to find his Drukhari worshipping a golden idol of slaanesh.
Regarding Sslyth, how do you guys think they compare to Grotesques?
They both have S5 T5 and a 5++, though Grotesques have an extra wound.
Grotesques have more attacks than the Sslyth, but the Sslyth get to reroll all misses when near an Archon (average 2.67 hits for the Sslyth vs 3.3 for the Grots).
Grotesques have an extra point of AP on their weapons.
However, Sslyth each have 3 poison shots at 18" (again with rerolls if disembarked and an Archon is nearby), they don't take up 2 spaces in a transport and they cost 8pts less per model than Grotesques.
So, when playing pure Kabal, do you think Sslyth could be used in a similar manner to Grotesques?
You're also disregarding that the grots will either have AP-3 or (more likely) a 4++, and also have access to +1T, +1S, +1LD, and Sslyth are limited to 4 per detachment.
But in general, yeah, they have a fairly similar role as heavy infantry, and you use a venom with a court in it similarly to how you'd use a Raider with Grots+haemonculus.
I'd take a court in every detachment pretty much. I'd probably consider swapping sslyth for Lhameans, or taking a mix of both, Lhameans are quite nice and have a good amount of killing power for the points.
So, which 3rd patrol for my starting force?
I have Cult of Cursed Blade with hellions, wyches in a raider (borrowed from Flayed Skull below), and the suicide succubus.
Flayed skull with Archon (rides with his wyches above), 2 5 man kabalites with blaster in venoms, 2 razorwing fighters.
And the 3rd wych cult I have a Succubus, 12 wyches and 9 reaver bikes. You'd think that Red Grief fits best, but since Power from Pain allows reroll charges after Turn 2, is that really the best option compared to +1 Attack from Strife? The wyches can be placed in webway strike, and if I drop them Turn 1, I can always use the Architects of Pain strat to boost them to reroll charges to help get into combat. Otherwise they drop turn 2 or 3 and get it automatically.
So which Cult first best with my last Patrol?
I also have plenty of points to add more units, but the above is what I currently own (minus the razorwings)
Vipoid, if you really want a mobile HQ option, here's what you do:
step 1: Get yourself some loaded dice that only roll 3s. Feel less karmically conflicted about this because you'll only be using them to give your opponent an advantage
Step 2: Take a succubus from Strife and give her the stimm addict trait and phial bouquet relic. Use your cheater dice on them (or just ask an opponent's permission in a fluffy narrative game)
Step 3: enjoy your 14" move Succubus who can OD to move 20" in a turn if she wants (flapped her wings too hard?)
Automatically Appended Next Post: on a different topic:
Has anyone considered how they might approach a Freakshow army configuration in 8th with the new codex?
It seems to me that right now, it's almost viable, and with the almost-certain buff/redesign of the Death Jester and a few more LD-related shenanigans coming in the Harlequin codex, we might see Freakshows making their triumphant return.
As it stands now, the tools we bring to the table are:
-Very easy access to a -3 LD debuff stack through Coven of the Dark Creed. 1 Raider/Haemonculus/Grotesque or Raider/2 squads of Wracks transport combo that gets within range of an enemy unit instantly stacks them to -3.
-Kabal of the Black Heart can offer easy access to Phantasm Launchers for targeted -1LD, and the Archon warlord trait "roll 2 take the highest for LD tests within 6", as well as the ever-useful Agents of Vect for denying Insane Bravery
-Craftworld Eldar can bring a cheap Alaitoc Battalion, with Rangers to help pick off enemy characters, Hemlock Wraithfighters to dish out even more highly flexible LD debuffs in Mindshock Pods and Terrify. A Farseer is also vital to bring one of the best spells for freakshow, Mind War, which can easily oneshot pretty much any character with stacked up debuffs. A Spiritseer can also offer Smite or Jinx, which helps all eldar factions to take down armored units.
-Harlequins can bring a Vanguard of Shadowseer, Solitaire with the Mask of Secrets, Death Jesters. Shadowseer takes the warptime spell to send the Solitaire shooting into the enemy lines with his -1LD bubble and melee power, and then just Smites and chucks Phantasm Grenades.
I think if I were doing a 3-detachment limit, I'd drop the Harlequins, but we only have to wait a month to see what new shenanigans their codex brings - one of the Masques will almost certainly be LD related and hopefully Death is Not Enough will see some new teeth. Mirror of Minds returning to a LD check would also be awesome.
Man, some people are still crapping on HQ's in here? Seems premature. I know it is anecdotal but in my last game my archon was black heartwith the Djinn blade and blast pistol. Fether killed 2, 5 man dev squads, 3 interceptors, 2 company champions an artillery crew and would have dropped a heaven fall blade leutenant but I rolled below average on my blast pistol (1) and then again on my blade after getting 2 wounds (2d3 for 2 damage). Thats bananas for 86 points. I didn't roll hot either, just average to below average in fact.
It was not hard to get him there either. Put him in a red grief raider, burned aether sails then assaulted a small 5 man unit of scouts on the flank so it could not be wrapped. Raider died next turn but towards the end of his shooting phase and 8 wyches, archon and succubus hopped out ready for work. I had other raiders making them untargetable for a solid chunk of his shooting, wyches were ignored for coven stuff rightly so. wyches didn't do much but did tie up some models for 3 phases.
Red grief transports are insane. But archons are also insane. Would have killed more believe it or not had I taken flayed skull (strength 5 is huge). Black heart seemed underwhelming, I gained 1 CP back. Which was slightly below average but something to consider is I gained it back on my very last CP when it wasn't nearly as useful. Gaining them back early is awesome but games where you don't suck.
I see no reason why a pair of archons would be any worse BTW. For their points they are absolute blenders. Succubus was underwhelming but I failed all her 3++ so it was not a fair showing. I actually think taking them with shard nets and impalers is the best option, you can easily tie down units for the entire game and for only 55 points. She also can solo buff characters well with that 2 damage.
Also a cheeky trick I used on my talos unit was fire an fade after advancing them up. I took haywire blasters so I could advance and shoot, then got another free 7" for 1 CP, unit moved 19" in one turn. This takes a ton of fire off the other threats in your list. Profits of flesh talos take an insane amount of fire to deal with.
EDIT: My list also had a brick of 10 grotesques, these fethers took the entire game to die. I think almost every list should run a unit of these in the center as an anchor, or WWP them in if your not using screaming jets (which might not be often admittedly). Thinking about running 8 in a tantalus from red grief LMAO. That's a solid PITA to deal with turn 1.
vipoid wrote: Regarding Sslyth, how do you guys think they compare to Grotesques?
They both have S5 T5 and a 5++, though Grotesques have an extra wound.
Grotesques have more attacks than the Sslyth, but the Sslyth get to reroll all misses when near an Archon (average 2.67 hits for the Sslyth vs 3.3 for the Grots).
Grotesques have an extra point of AP on their weapons.
However, Sslyth each have 3 poison shots at 18" (again with rerolls if disembarked and an Archon is nearby), they don't take up 2 spaces in a transport and they cost 8pts less per model than Grotesques.
So, when playing pure Kabal, do you think Sslyth could be used in a similar manner to Grotesques?
This is what's causing my current musings.
With my Sslyth thinking, that's 2 Kabal patrols sorted but I need a 3rd to unlock command points. The Sslyth as already said compare favorably to Wracks and from the above are quasi-grotesques too so I'm not seeing too much reason to make that 3rd patrol Coven.
However in the long run i'm wanting to team my Drukhari force up with a Harlequin force so I am wary of overlap between a Wych patrol and the Harlequins. Not being an expert in Wych Cult in the slightest i'm now pondering how they could best fill a support role.
First thoughts are two Red Grief Venoms with some Shardnet squads to blitz in and tie things down but i'd really appreciate some input.
There's not really an overlap between Wyches and Harlequins. Harlequins are basically functional Incubi (anti elite elites) and wyches are infantry blenders.
Corsair, I too am coming around to the Church of Shardnet. My first test game of a full Wych Cult army, my opponent had a block of 40 buffed up cultists (popping prescience and VOTLW the turn they came in) and my succubus charged in after a Raider and tied up all 40 of them. It was a fantastic moment of narrative forgery.
"You might as well give up! I have you surrounded!"
Red Corsair wrote: Man, some people are still crapping on HQ's in here? Seems premature. I know it is anecdotal but in my last game my archon was black heartwith the Djinn blade and blast pistol. Fether killed 2, 5 man dev squads, 3 interceptors, 2 company champions an artillery crew and would have dropped a heaven fall blade leutenant but I rolled below average on my blast pistol (1) and then again on my blade after getting 2 wounds (2d3 for 2 damage). Thats bananas for 86 points. I didn't roll hot either, just average to below average in fact.
It was not hard to get him there either. Put him in a red grief raider, burned aether sails then assaulted a small 5 man unit of scouts on the flank so it could not be wrapped. Raider died next turn but towards the end of his shooting phase and 8 wyches, archon and succubus hopped out ready for work. I had other raiders making them untargetable for a solid chunk of his shooting, wyches were ignored for coven stuff rightly so. wyches didn't do much but did tie up some models for 3 phases.
Red grief transports are insane. But archons are also insane. Would have killed more believe it or not had I taken flayed skull (strength 5 is huge). Black heart seemed underwhelming, I gained 1 CP back. Which was slightly below average but something to consider is I gained it back on my very last CP when it wasn't nearly as useful. Gaining them back early is awesome but games where you don't suck.
I see no reason why a pair of archons would be any worse BTW. For their points they are absolute blenders. Succubus was underwhelming but I failed all her 3++ so it was not a fair showing. I actually think taking them with shard nets and impalers is the best option, you can easily tie down units for the entire game and for only 55 points. She also can solo buff characters well with that 2 damage.
Also a cheeky trick I used on my talos unit was fire an fade after advancing them up. I took haywire blasters so I could advance and shoot, then got another free 7" for 1 CP, unit moved 19" in one turn. This takes a ton of fire off the other threats in your list. Profits of flesh talos take an insane amount of fire to deal with.
EDIT: My list also had a brick of 10 grotesques, these fethers took the entire game to die. I think almost every list should run a unit of these in the center as an anchor, or WWP them in if your not using screaming jets (which might not be often admittedly). Thinking about running 8 in a tantalus from red grief LMAO. That's a solid PITA to deal with turn 1.
I really love your idea of a CC bus in a Red Grief Raider. I too believe Archons aren't bad at all in CC. I'll have to try for myself but with only 382 pts of Drukhari it'll be a long wait.
It's really hard to build a 2000 pts list honestly, there's just so many choices it's overwhelming. Deciding which Obsessions to use with each detachments/vehicles proves to be a pain (feels thematic with Drukhari).
I'm also tempted dropping the Black Heart detachment totally. I'm not playing tourneys, just serious games with good lists at my LGS and I don't believe I need to recycle CP when I can easily already fit more or less 9 in a 2000 pts list. There's many appealing choices for vehicles traits, and the "ram head-first into the opponent's lines" approach I'd like to build believes the 6+++ may be traded for more offensive power. Also, I could use all my Archons in combat instead of having one hiding behind a lamp post (not very fluffy either) for the whole game screaming "JUST AS PLANNED" all the game.
Concerning Covens, everybody is talking about Grotesques and they look rad, but their money price rebukes me. I could use some Crypt Horrors but to convert them a bit I'd still need the Grotesques parts wouldn't I ? I was thinking about having 3 Talos with macro-scalpels and splinter pods to assist my Scourges and Raiders in the anti-T7 department. They look durable as well, especially with an Haemonculus and the 4++.
Red Corsair wrote: Man, some people are still crapping on HQ's in here? Seems premature. I know it is anecdotal but in my last game my archon was black heartwith the Djinn blade and blast pistol. Fether killed 2, 5 man dev squads, 3 interceptors, 2 company champions an artillery crew and would have dropped a heaven fall blade leutenant but I rolled below average on my blast pistol (1) and then again on my blade after getting 2 wounds (2d3 for 2 damage). Thats bananas for 86 points. I didn't roll hot either, just average to below average in fact.
It was not hard to get him there either. Put him in a red grief raider, burned aether sails then assaulted a small 5 man unit of scouts on the flank so it could not be wrapped. Raider died next turn but towards the end of his shooting phase and 8 wyches, archon and succubus hopped out ready for work. I had other raiders making them untargetable for a solid chunk of his shooting, wyches were ignored for coven stuff rightly so. wyches didn't do much but did tie up some models for 3 phases.
Red grief transports are insane. But archons are also insane. Would have killed more believe it or not had I taken flayed skull (strength 5 is huge). Black heart seemed underwhelming, I gained 1 CP back. Which was slightly below average but something to consider is I gained it back on my very last CP when it wasn't nearly as useful. Gaining them back early is awesome but games where you don't suck.
I see no reason why a pair of archons would be any worse BTW. For their points they are absolute blenders. Succubus was underwhelming but I failed all her 3++ so it was not a fair showing. I actually think taking them with shard nets and impalers is the best option, you can easily tie down units for the entire game and for only 55 points. She also can solo buff characters well with that 2 damage.
Also a cheeky trick I used on my talos unit was fire an fade after advancing them up. I took haywire blasters so I could advance and shoot, then got another free 7" for 1 CP, unit moved 19" in one turn. This takes a ton of fire off the other threats in your list. Profits of flesh talos take an insane amount of fire to deal with.
EDIT: My list also had a brick of 10 grotesques, these fethers took the entire game to die. I think almost every list should run a unit of these in the center as an anchor, or WWP them in if your not using screaming jets (which might not be often admittedly). Thinking about running 8 in a tantalus from red grief LMAO. That's a solid PITA to deal with turn 1.
I really love your idea of a CC bus in a Red Grief Raider. I too believe Archons aren't bad at all in CC. I'll have to try for myself but with only 382 pts of Drukhari it'll be a long wait.
It's really hard to build a 2000 pts list honestly, there's just so many choices it's overwhelming. Deciding which Obsessions to use with each detachments/vehicles proves to be a pain (feels thematic with Drukhari).
I'm also tempted dropping the Black Heart detachment totally. I'm not playing tourneys, just serious games with good lists at my LGS and I don't believe I need to recycle CP when I can easily already fit more or less 9 in a 2000 pts list. There's many appealing choices for vehicles traits, and the "ram head-first into the opponent's lines" approach I'd like to build believes the 6+++ may be traded for more offensive power. Also, I could use all my Archons in combat instead of having one hiding behind a lamp post (not very fluffy either) for the whole game screaming "JUST AS PLANNED" all the game.
Concerning Covens, everybody is talking about Grotesques and they look rad, but their money price rebukes me. I could use some Crypt Horrors but to convert them a bit I'd still need the Grotesques parts wouldn't I ? I was thinking about having 3 Talos with macro-scalpels and splinter pods to assist my Scourges and Raiders in the anti-T7 department. They look durable as well, especially with an Haemonculus and the 4++.
The talos kit comes with a frankly absurd number of bits. I'm talking like on the level of it's got 4 different tail gun options, and rather than just giving you one gun housing and making you stick the guns into it, GW had so much room on the sprue that they give you 4 identical gun housings just to spare you the inconvenience. The kit comes with like 10 masks, all the cronos spines+6-8 talos hands, tons of little danglies and syringes and whatnot.
I made my Chronos and was so offended by the sheer quantity of plastic I had left over that I took a random beaten up necron destroyer torso and I was able to make a whole WYSIWYG talos with minimal effort.
Also, FWIW, Ogryn/fantasy Ogres also make very cool base kits for Grotesques as well.
Yea the talos kit gives you all the haywire you could want for scourge, plus all the masks and weapons and spines you need for grots. It's a fantastic kit. I have 12 crypt horror grots and 10 legion of everblight warspear grots. I'd say the conversion is easier on crypt horrors but it's cheaper and I'd argue cooler on the warspears however the material they are made from is hot trash to work with lol.
At Scotsman- Yea the net succubus gets work done. Its an choice that on paper raises eyebrows until you field one and trap a key unit in place. BTW love that narrative dialog you pictured, just the type of thing a drug crazy pit fighting champion would utter.
Still probably behind on all this but i did some number crunching last night (not a whole lot as i had to sleep for work) and i am of the opinion that yeah our melee will be needed for anti-horde. I didn't even figure special weapons on wyches.
Bikes don't seem to wound enough though still in my opinion. However i imagine bikes could hold the incredibly useful 'screening for overwatch' role for units that do better anti-horde like wyches. That or they just tie units down. If that's the case however maybe i should take bikes MSU style and just boost the toughness.
I think they are points efficient - but its this weird combination of being cheap but not really doing much.
I mean doing 4-5 wounds to a vehicle for just over 90 points is good. But its also kind of... meh. I feel they should come down and kill something - which to be fair they have never done especially reliably. They should make your opponent sweat.
Its very much a Dark Eldar as a horde army unit - you have to take 3. Blasters make the unit more fragile - and I don't think are much more efficient in terms of expected damage/points cost - but with some hot rolling on D6 damage you can at least kill something straight up. (I guess if you roll a lot of 6s you can do the same with haywire, but that seems less likely.)
Also not really clear where this idea that poison sucks comes from. Kabalites look pretty solid vs anything I can think of - they do better than most infantry for their points as far as I can see. I agree Guardian defenders would be expected to do more damage in most circumstances - but not so much I think there is a massive tier difference. The kabalites start winning with a reroll of 1s to hit or wound - and you are likely to get one or the other from obsessions.
Meanwhile Kabalites are less efficient to shoot and can at least contribute a little when outside 12".
There at last, finished my first draft for a 2000 pts list. Here it is:
Spoiler:
Batallion - Flayed Skull
- Archon, Warlord, Famed Savagery, Obsidian Veil, Huskblade and Blast pistol (In a Raider with 8 Wyches and the drugged Succubus)
- Archon, Agoniser
- 2x10 Warriors, Shredder, Splinter Cannon, in a Raider with DL, Splinter racks and Shock prow
- 5 Warriors, Blaster, Blast pistol, Power sword, in a Venom with 2 Splinter cannons
- 10 Scourges, 4 Haywire Blasters
Patrol - Red Grief
- Succubus, Hydra gauntlets
- 5 Wyches, Shardnet & Impaler, in a Venom with 2 Splinter cannons
Patrol - Red Grief
- Succubus, Stimm Addict, Blood Glaive
- 8 Wyches, Shardnet & Impaler
- Raider with DL and Shock Prow
- 2x6 Reavers, 2 Blasters, 2 Grav-talons
22 units, 94 models, 15 deployments, 100 PL, 10 CP (+1d3, -2 from relics and warlord traits).
I shamelessly stole the idea from Red Corsair for the Succu-bus with CC Archon. The Coven patrol takes board space while making for the frontlines on foot, buffed by the Haemonculus, the Reavers will either tarpit and/or focus on crippling enemy vehicles by shooting and charging them if possible, the Warriors shoot whatever is juicy enough for them, the Venoms shoot stuff and deliver the 5 Wyches where needed (they're more there as a tax really), and the Archon and Succubus on foot do whatever they can to either tie up enemy units or contest objectives. Scourges I'm not sure at all with their loadout, I feel like loading them up with Blasters would prove too pricy (and a pain to find so much Blasters), and I'm not certain on the use of the Haywire. If my opponent don't have vehicles they're just nice bolters. But they're cheap so why not ? I added 5 more Scourges for ablative wounds, and because their Shardcarbines aren't too bad.
vipoid wrote: Regarding the Writ of the Living Muse, the flavour behind it seems outright bizarre.
I'll confess to not being a grand sage when it comes to DE, but are they really invigorated by some guy reading the words of Vect? That's the sort of thing I'd expect from one of the Imperium factions being read the words of the God Emperor.
Also, I've been repeatedly told that no Archon would ever have wings, yet it seems no one has a problem with about half of them lugging around iron tablets so that they can bore their Ravager crews to death with them.
And why an iron tablet? I know Vect has lived for a long time, but I'm pretty sure it was well past the Iron Age in the Dark City by the time he was born. Could they not maybe have carved his words into a lighter material? Or maybe have them in an ebook? And if you desperately need them on an iron tablet for some reason, could you at least use something else when going on a raid?
Sorry, but for some reason this really bugs me. It's like they took an artefact right out of Warhammer Fantasy Battles and just changed the name on it to 'Vect'.
You could just model the archon reading from the tablets in a hat as he live-dictates the book of Drukhari to the Ravager crews so later on they can form the church of the latter day muses.
Alternatively, you could model him with a big beard breaking the tablets over his knee after coming down from the spire to find his Drukhari worshipping a golden idol of slaanesh.
karandrasss wrote: So Nick Nanavati thinks Kabals are the worst, Scourges are underwhelming, and Wyches shutting down the enemy army is the way to go. Thoughts?
I thing Kabals, for their price, are a great way to keep your opponent under pressure while the scarier stuff mops up. And you never convince me not to love Scourges.
karandrasss wrote: So Nick Nanavati thinks Kabals are the worst, Scourges are underwhelming, and Wyches shutting down the enemy army is the way to go. Thoughts?
I thing Kabals, for their price, are a great way to keep your opponent under pressure while the scarier stuff mops up. And you never convince me not to love Scourges.
Apparently not as good as jamming 19 deep-striking Wyches and 9 out of a Raider with a Succubus down their throat.
Obviously, Wyches deep strike, Alliance of Agony, etc etc. Any thoughts? Also, any ideas on how to fill the remaining points?
I would switch weapons between the Acothyst and Haemi. Why give the -1 to hit most turns heavy weapon to the guy with a 3+ BS, while giving the autohit gun to the guy with a 2+, y'know?
My feeling is troops win games. The idea here is the wyches use the Raiders from the black heart, so the Raiders all have 6+++ on them with 9 wyches and a succubus in each one. Then I deep strike in through the webway 2 squads of 20 warriors. The 3rd squad and one archon move up to get with the other two, the wyches move up in the Raiders, and the talos / homonculus advance as fast as they can to get to their target as well. The ravagers and the archon with the reroll to wound sit back at 36" and have fun. If anything gets shot off the board there are plenty of "fill in" units that can deal with it. Protection vs alpha strike should be simple enough, I have enough pure models to cover myself easy enough. And enough cchq's to really be a threat with cc.
Only thing I am wondering about is Urine, by taking him I don't get the homonculus bonus from the Alliance of glory, but if I take a normal homonculus I get d3 more command points but the talos become str 6 instead of being str 7 near him. Question is does that matter that much? If I run across a Deamon Prince or some other large t6/t7 enemy I think it will.
Fafnir wrote: How do we feel about Mandrakes? They already look like a significant improvement over Scorpions, but I'm not sure if it's enough.
They seem pretty good as general-purpose units. They're probably one of our better anti-infantry options, but their Mortal Wounds allow them to engage heavier stuff as well. Also, 3 S4 AP-1 melee attacks per model isn't bad either.
The only sad thing is that they seem designed to deploy into cover . . . but it doesn't help them at all.
One thing I'd like to try is having some Mandrakes on board a Raider as an escort for an Archon (this'll most likely be in a Battalion, where the second Archon is off with a Court in a different transport). Their weapons have the same range as his Blaster or Soul Seeker, and they can both do either shooting or melee. Granted, he can't buff them, but he can't buff anything on a transport anyway, and nothing else
that he can buff would want to join him in combat.
I will admit though that this tactic is at least partially inspired by my using an albino Mandrake model as my Archon.
Obviously, Wyches deep strike, Alliance of Agony, etc etc. Any thoughts? Also, any ideas on how to fill the remaining points?
You have just enough for a Sslyth, and a spare transport slot to fit him in with the haemie, lhamean and grots. Seems like what I'd run here. Otherwise, maybe just an extra Reaver and some gear like an Injector for the haemonculus.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, if we're doing lists, here's my first pass at a Freakshow:
Spoiler:
Patrol Detachment, Coven of the Dark Creed
HQ: Haemonculus, Electrocorrosive Whip and Hexrifle, Fear Incarnate WL trait, Nightmare Doll for 1CP
Transport: Raider with Dark Lance and Shock Prow
Transport: Raider with Dark Lance and Shock Prow
Transport: Venom with TL splinter rifle and splinter cannon
Elites: 5x Grotesques
Battalion Detachment, Craftworld Alaitoc (-1 to hit outside of 12")
HQ: Farseer Skyrunner, Doom and Mind War
HQ: Spiritseer, Jinx
Patrol Detachment, Kabal of the Black Heart (+1 to the PFP table, 6+++ FNP save to all models who don't have PFP)
HQ: Archon, Huskblade, Phantasm Grenades and Blast Pistol, Helm of Spite, Ancient Evil WL trait
Troop: 10x Kabalite Warriors, Phantasm Grenade, Dark lance and 2x Blaster
Elite: Lhamean
Heavy Support: Ravager, 3x Dark Lances
Patrol Detachment, Cult of the Red Grief
Succubus, Shardnet and Impaler, Quicksilver Dodge WL trait
5x Wyches, Phantasm Launcher and Shardnet
10x Reaver Jetbikes, 3x Grav-Talons
Raider, Dark Lance
List Strategy: Archon, Lhamean, 5 wyches, Haemonculus, Succubus pile into the speedy Red Grief raider, which Aethersails in alongside the Reavers to help tie up more things. Grotesques usually Webway in to come on turn 2. Jinx and Doom are primarily used to help the list bring down hard targets, while the Farseer's primary job is to look for Mind War crits against LD-stacked characters.
A couple suboptimal choices probably with WL traits (I know I probably won't need Ancient Evil in the long run and Labyrinthine will be better) but I want to try the full doubled-down LD shenanigan army before I move away from it. 12 drops is pretty decent for a 2k list so hopefully I'll be getting turn 1 a decent amount of the time.
So some potentially interesting thoughts over-night as I continue to develop this infantry-focused core out. People have been slating splinter fire a bit so I figured I would do some maths
Shuriken Catapult Shot vs T3 = 0.444 Wounds
Shuriken Catapult Shot vs T4 = 0.333 Wounds
So it's pretty easy to make your splinter fire 36% stronger than default without too much hassle and it actually pushes you a touch above unbuffed Shuriken fire against hordes, becoming better the higher the toughness goes. Sure the armour rend is a thing but you have a solid range advantage to utilise.
From there I started thinking about the solid splinter fire of Venoms and how they are maneuverable enough to hop between Archon bubbles, bringing their extra firepower wherever is required and things start fitting into place for how I want my Wych's. If i'm going to be having my Venoms gun-boating at 18" range with splinter cannons then sticking Kabalites in them doesn't make a lot of sense as I'd want to get 12" or closer; Wych squads however could be fast enough to cross that 18" gap, regardless of if the Venom survives the turn or not.
I'd want any charge to be at least 80%+ reliable with reroll so i'm looking at 6-7" charges distances. 8" move distances from Wyches, then 3" deployment bubble from the Venom. In theory that's achievable but if people pull casualties from the front ranks in shooting could prove problematic. Red Grief however should be able to achieve a 20" charge range from the venom so become crazy reliable here, while also giving a foot Succubus with the +2M drug a similar threat range.
I'm sure this is probably stuff already known by many but it's new thinking for me and helps solidify my 3 patrol skeleton to the following:
It's really seducing to just throw that much saves at an opponent. I feel it with my AdMech, when I'm shooting with the Neutron Laser I'm like "haha save this rebel scum" and then he rolls his 5++ and my super 18 damage are gone because of 3 saves. Meanwhile I had 10 Reivers with knifes cutting my Onager (T7, 3+, 11W) to death over two turns.
If I'm going to run Kabalites, they'll be in a Raider with splinter racks and a splinter cannon, rerolling their 1s to Hit. Venoms ? Full splinter cannons.
So any consensus as of yet regarding venoms vs raiders?
Seems to me that raiders are cheaper for the cost of transporting 10 warriors ,rather than having to buy 2 venoms. I don't know if the raiders anti infantry shooting is good enough to justify the price difference.
Was thinking perhaps better to run raiders, and use the points you have saved to get some shredder scourges (which shoot better than splinter cannons anyhow), for the best of 2 worlds.
The math isn't the whole story for Venoms vs Raiders. Venoms don't degrade, and the -1 to hit can't be ignored. Plus they're faster and easier to hide. I prefer Venoms for shooting (Kabs w/ Blaster) and Raiders for combat units (because units of 5 assault units ain't gonna do gak).
I dunno about Shredder Scourge honestly. The math says they hit hard, but you have to invest either Fire and Fade or other units to charge whatever you're shooting in order to keep them alive. I'd rather stick to my Flayed Skull venom spam and Dissies for anti-infantry.
Chippen wrote: The math isn't the whole story for Venoms vs Raiders. Venoms don't degrade, and the -1 to hit can't be ignored. Plus they're faster and easier to hide. I prefer Venoms for shooting (Kabs w/ Blaster) and Raiders for combat units (because units of 5 assault units ain't gonna do gak).
I dunno about Shredder Scourge honestly. The math says they hit hard, but you have to invest either Fire and Fade or other units to charge whatever you're shooting in order to keep them alive. I'd rather stick to my Flayed Skull venom spam and Dissies for anti-infantry.
I use raiders for wyches, I think they work well. And the stratagem that let's them consolidate back into a waiting raider even if they got out of said raider this turn had potential to be a serious pain for an enemy. You jump out, kill something, then get back in before your opponent can shoot back.
But venoms I see working well for smaller stuff. A 5 man mandrake squad (yeah I know, why are they in a venom when they deep strike) gets 12 cannon shots and 10 of their cool gun at 18" and can put out some serious firepower while staying resilient vs shooting thanks to -1. Or using venoms for an hq and some court of the archon guys can work as well.
A few bits of Mathhammer:
-Raiders and Venoms are /very/ close to each other defensively. Venoms are the slightest bit flimsier, but also a bit cheaper, so it's pretty much a wash.
-Splinter Cannons aren't actually a damage upgrade. If you had equal points of Cannon and Twin Rifle Venoms at 6" range, they'd do almost the same damage. Those extra 10 points do buy you flexability - a 2xCannon Venom is OK at 36" and better at 18", while the regular one has four different range bands, which makes them harder to use.
-Disintegration Raiders and Venoms are about equal at killing Marines. Venoms slightly better killing weaker targets, and Raiders at tougher targets. But neither is particularly great - they're all about their cargo.
One non-math-related edge Raiders have is that they're a little harder to encircle.
Raiders are definitely the go-to for assault transport, particularly for Wyches. The red grief "See Ya Nerds" stratagem is great, as is the 10 capacity.
There's also the pure utility of the Raider for helping assault units tie things up and control who gets to fight who. Stab the pointy end into a unit and get as many bases as you can 0" away from the hull, and you can immobilize and dictate the pile-in moves of huge chunks of an enemy unit.
Those things are like line blocks in tetris for players who like their micromanagement. make a big linear column of them to prevent units from assaulting and surrounding it after deep strike, sidle them up to a transport to block off a whole side, smush an artillery piece up into the corner of the board, there's just so many shenanigans available with a vehicle that long and skinny.
karandrasss wrote: Maybe Kabalites are as bad as tourney champs like Nanavati say they are?
I love how "Kabals are the ones that have received the least overhaul with this new Codex but they are still plenty of usefull and have their tactical place" is deconstructed into "Kabalites SUCK ASS BOI!"
I think Raiders are good for either shooting and assaulting. Raiders have splinter racks for Warriors, and options for assisting CC units with the shock prow (for 1 pt it's a must-have) and chain-snares (which may be overkill if it's a Wych Raider with a nearby Succubus or same with Archon). Grisly trophies + Phantasm grenade launcher are really interesting too, with all the Ld debuffs we can stack in CC it's that much models fleeing. The Raider can close the distance much faster too with Aethersails, it's effectively a movement of 22", which can charge afterwards if you opt for a Red Grief Raider. I like the Dark Lance on the Raider too, it's an easy way to fit in an anti-tank weapon.
Venom are in the same case, they're a bit faster (without counting Red Grief), and amazing with Flayed Skull as they are now moving 19", rerolling 1s to Hit with all their weapons (I'll always go double splinter cannons with those). It can receive grisly trophies and chain-snares too, but have one less attack than the Raider. If going with shooty passengers, Index Trueborns are nice with blasters, but regular Warriors are cheaper, although they can only equip one blaster and one blast pistol. It can be fun loading him up with Medusaes if you want to accompany an Archon or Succubus, it's Assault 4 9" S4 AP-2 per Medusae. They can be used as fodder if the Venom crashes too, to spare your HQ. Speaking of this, the -1 to Hit prevents plasma spam somewhat but it's still only one lucky Lascannon shot away from being destroyed.
So in my eyes, both have use in shooting and charging, with the Venom favouring elite units inside for shooting or assaulting, and the Raider better for Warriors or a Succu-bus with a pack of Wyches.
karandrasss wrote: So Nick Nanavati thinks Kabals are the worst, Scourges are underwhelming, and Wyches shutting down the enemy army is the way to go. Thoughts?
He's not a DE player, and while I think he is a good tournament player, that doesn't mean he is an authority on every army in the game. So take it with a grain of salt. I think calling Kabs the worst is daft. Saying wyches can shut down the enemy is nothing new either lol, I mean everyone has been saying this since the leaks. BTW there is a battle report on youtube where Nick loses to a "casual" store player nobodies heard of while he is fielding his Chaos soup list VS the guys Primaris only army. Excuses of luck ensue but in reality they played a randomly generated open war mission and without prep and practice to game the format, like most comp players, the playing field becomes more level. It's the reason why taking a net list doesn't make a player. Those lists are gamed for a specific meta and tournament packet.
EDIT: I'll add again, I am not bashing Nick, he's clearly an amazing player, but just remember he is more then likely planning on an eldar soup list that absolutely craps on the fluff, which is fine if thats your sort of thing, but for example scourge are by no means bad unless your planning on spamming ravagers which point for point do scourges task better in almost every way. I personally don't want to run 6-9 ravagers though lol.
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Fafnir wrote: How do we feel about Mandrakes? They already look like a significant improvement over Scorpions, but I'm not sure if it's enough.
Mandrakes are gods. Seriously, I have 20 and I sometimes wish I had more.
karandrasss wrote: So Nick Nanavati thinks Kabals are the worst, Scourges are underwhelming, and Wyches shutting down the enemy army is the way to go. Thoughts?
He's not a DE player, and while I think he is a good tournament player, that doesn't mean he is an authority on every army in the game. So take it with a grain of salt. I think calling Kabs the worst is daft. Saying wyches can shut down the enemy is nothing new either lol, I mean everyone has been saying this since the leaks. BTW there is a battle report on youtube where Nick loses to a "casual" store player nobodies heard of while he is fielding his Chaos soup list VS the guys Primaris only army. Excuses of luck ensue but in reality they played a randomly generated open war mission and without prep and practice to game the format, like most comp players, the playing field becomes more level. It's the reason why taking a net list doesn't make a player. Those lists are gamed for a specific meta and tournament packet.
EDIT: I'll add again, I am not bashing Nick, he's clearly an amazing player, but just remember he is more then likely planning on an eldar soup list that absolutely craps on the fluff, which is fine if thats your sort of thing, but for example scourge are by no means bad unless your planning on spamming ravagers which point for point do scourges task better in almost every way. I personally don't want to run 6-9 ravagers though lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fafnir wrote: How do we feel about Mandrakes? They already look like a significant improvement over Scorpions, but I'm not sure if it's enough.
Mandrakes are gods. Seriously, I have 20 and I sometimes wish I had more.
Kabals are great, and tournaments players like you said play for tournaments meta/scenarios (something i say all the time).
I argue that Wracks are better than wyches at this point (4++ always and better toughness, sure its less attacks, but wracks can at least sit on an objective)
Red Corsair wrote: He's not a DE player, and while I think he is a good tournament player, that doesn't mean he is an authority on every army in the game. So take it with a grain of salt. I think calling Kabs the worst is daft. Saying wyches can shut down the enemy is nothing new either lol, I mean everyone has been saying this since the leaks. BTW there is a battle report on youtube where Nick loses to a "casual" store player nobodies heard of while he is fielding his Chaos soup list VS the guys Primaris only army. Excuses of luck ensue but in reality they played a randomly generated open war mission and without prep and practice to game the format, like most comp players, the playing field becomes more level. It's the reason why taking a net list doesn't make a player. Those lists are gamed for a specific meta and tournament packet.
Not watched the game - but Open War can result in very skewed situations (although, as you say, it really just creates another meta).
I agree though its hard to see how kabalites are bad. Its possible it will never take on over a broader Eldar soup - or wych bombs & reavers - but for a pure DE list making a mini-RG build around a reroll 1s to hit and wound Archon just seems obvious.
I don't have the models and have no intention of getting them - but who doesn't want to see what 8 ravagers do to a Primaris army? Get some flyers in there too if possible.
So i'm pondering if I'm actually being too passive in my Poison Tongue Sslyth/Venom usage and that I could actually squeeze a bit more out of this. As a recap, i've currently been looking at a Sslyth "nest" on foot with Archon babysitter and two gunship venoms hogging his aura to put out solid spinter fire, with Wych's in the venoms ready to strike.
I'm now wondering just how much damage 3 Venoms, 2 with Kabalites, the other with Archon and Sslyth can do if I just ram them down my opponents throat turn 1. Assuming I can get the formation in 12" which shouldn't be too difficult that would be:
30 Splinter shots from Venoms
16 Splinter shots from Kabalites
12 Splinter shots from Sslyth
2 Shredders / Blasters as preferred
Unfortunately not benefitting from the Archon reroll, so only around 22.5 actual splinter wounds.
Then turn 2 you get all your Auras from the Archon as you dismount and move up. Assuming all your infantry survive any exploding venoms, that makes a further 13.5 splinter wounds plus whatever output from the remaining Venoms (extra 4.5 wounds each).
Now bear with me on this one as it's a little counter-intuitive. The accompanying Archon then uses an Animus Vitae relic to deal 1CP worth of mortal wounds and activate Flensing Fury in all the Kabalites. You then charge in, Venoms/Sslyth first to soak Overwatch. To back this aggressive rush up, you could Webway in supporting forces nearby on turn 1 so that you have some weight of numbers behind the Animus Vitae use, especially when it is not restricted to Kabal/Coven/Cult and will work on all allies.
We are dark eldar. It would be crazy not to try that at least once.
I think whatever we do the end result is we have to be aggressive and hit as hard and as fast as possible. Everything else after that should be mop up.
So I think there is going to be a decent amount of strength now in using enemies bodies to protect our transport.
Let's use a red grief tantalus as an example. It disembarks its 15 which squad which can, pretty realistically, get into melee (insert any unit here it won't kill turn 1). The tantalus then moves into charge range, shoots, kills something, shoots again with the wych stratagem. Now it charges. The opponents can't flee the fight, wyches can be made to hit soft enough to avoid destroying target and the opponent can now do nothing to shoot your tantalus in the middle of their army. Meanwhile, your tantalus can disengage freely, leap frog however it likes and re-engage on a whim.
The same thing applies to basically any other vehicle to a lesser extent.
Okay, here's a redo of my list, meant to take advantage of the Raiding Force rule. As before, Alliance of Agony is in effect. Succubus will be getting Quicksilver Dodge, Haemonculous will be a Diabolic Soothsayer.
Archon [4 PL, 93pts]: Blaster, Labyrinthine Cunning, Huskblade, Writ of the Living Muse, Warlord (Archon)
+ Troops +
Kabalite Warriors [4 PL, 104pts] . 6x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon: Splinter Cannon
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 47pts] . 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle
+ Elites +
Mandrakes [8 PL, 128pts]: 7x Mandrake, Nightfiend
Sslyth [2 PL, 27pts]
+ Fast Attack +
Scourges [5 PL, 128pts] . Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Solarite: Shardcarbine
+ Heavy Support +
Ravager [7 PL, 140pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance
Ravager [7 PL, 140pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance
Succubus [4 PL, 55pts]: Archite Glaive, Impaler, The Blood Glaive
+ Troops +
Wyches [6 PL, 174pts] . Hekatrix: Agoniser, Splinter pistol
. 17x Wych
. Wych with Wych Weapon: Shardnet and impaler
. Wych with Wych Weapon: Shardnet and impaler
+ Fast Attack +
Reavers [6 PL, 154pts]: 2x Grav-Talon
. Arena Champion
. 3x Reaver
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
Reavers [6 PL, 154pts]: 2x Grav-Talon
. Arena Champion
. 3x Reaver
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Blaster
Note that I'm toying with the idea of replacing the Venom + small Kabalite squad with a Razorwing. I'm also toying with the idea of trading Black Heart for Flayed Skull and their massed rerolling 1's, not to mention better fighty combos for an Archon (though it's a hard choice, given how good the Writ, Labyrinthine Cunning and Agent of Vect are). Also, given that I'll be getting rerolls to charges on turn 2 anyway, would it be worth it to go for Cult of Strife or Cursed Blade instead of Red Grief and keep my Webway Wych Bomb in reserve until turn 2?
Also, rules question that may have been asked before: does the Archon's reroll 1s aura work if he's embarked in an open topped transport? And would the same apply to Writ of the Living Muse? I imagine the answer to both questions is no.
Another question: what do people prefer/think would be a more effective combo for a Succubus: Strife Succubus w. glaive, Phial Boquet and Blade Dancer for maximum attacks, or Red Grief Succubus w. Blood Glaive and Quicksilver Dodge? I'll admit that the latter seems more reliable, but the former seems like it has more fun potential given the number of attacks she could unleash.
Now bear with me on this one as it's a little counter-intuitive. The accompanying Archon then uses an Animus Vitae relic to deal 1CP worth of mortal wounds and activate Flensing Fury in all the Kabalites. You then charge in, Venoms/Sslyth first to soak Overwatch. To back this aggressive rush up, you could Webway in supporting forces nearby on turn 1 so that you have some weight of numbers behind the Animus Vitae use, especially when it is not restricted to Kabal/Coven/Cult and will work on all allies.
So.... crazy idea?
An interesting idea. Are you talking about mass-charging all of your Kabalites in, without any dedicated CC units backing them up? On the one hand, it would be a good use of their rerolling 1's thanks to Poisoned Tongue, but on the other, I think it all really depends on what your target is and how weakened they are.
Hmm, 20 wyches vs 2x5 scourges with shredders for infantry duty...
Scourges do alpha strike better, but wyches can screen.
And how do you people plan to get the best value out of your haemonculus?
Was thinking of running 1 armed with ichor injector & flesh gauntlet with master nemesine trait to try to farm for thoose mortal wounds, or perhaps the reroll 1's on invulnerable saves or extra cp is just plain better
I only play Haemonculus now with full coven, and they are right up there with my army with Electro Whip (its model that way). I really like the combo of Reavers (3x3) with my 2 kabals detachments, i like coven a lot, but i generally only like Talos as solo units or Grots and i dont want a Haemi for 1-2 units.
And how do you people plan to get the best value out of your haemonculus?
Was thinking of running 1 armed with ichor injector & flesh gauntlet with master nemesine trait to try to farm for thoose mortal wounds, or perhaps the reroll 1's on invulnerable saves or extra cp is just plain better
I'm thinking just one with just stinger pistol, scissorhand and Master Artisan to boost Grotesques/Taloi. Beyond that, Diabolical Soothsayer is just too damn good.
Should I run the Kabalite Warriors as two groups with a Blaster each in Venoms, or as one big group in the Raider. I am thinking of getting a Haemonculus and some Wracks too.
I am thinking I might take the female Kabalite that is hanging off the Raider and turn her into another Archon.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So far I am trying to figure out what to do with the models I have so far. I am leaning MSU with Venoms. What I have so far is the following;
Should I run the Kabalite Warriors as two groups with a Blaster each in Venoms, or as one big group in the Raider. I am thinking of getting a Haemonculus and some Wracks too.
I am thinking I might take the female Kabalite that is hanging off the Raider and turn her into another Archon.
I would take the Kabalites in the venoms and the wyches in the raider. Really I see very little value in running small groups of wyches. There really isn't much you can do with the units you have right now other than just take them.
Looking at what you have you are lacking some dedicated anti-tank. A ravager would be nice for that or some scourge. Play a few small games and figure out what you like.
for example scourge are by no means bad unless your planning on spamming ravagers which point for point do scourges task better in almost every way. I personally don't want to run 6-9 ravagers though lol.
That doesn't sound right. If that's true, then Scourges do suck, because Ravagers get the added durability.
for example scourge are by no means bad unless your planning on spamming ravagers which point for point do scourges task better in almost every way. I personally don't want to run 6-9 ravagers though lol.
That doesn't sound right. If that's true, then Scourges do suck, because Ravagers get the added durability.
Scourges are a scalpel and anti-alpha strike unit, at the same time are our best unit against Necron QS vehicles they hold different roles.
You can make them as Anti-horde as wella nd they are effective for how cheap they are. with Fire and Fade could keep them for a couple turns.
Cult of Strife Battalion
Lelith
Succubus w/Shardnet and Impaler
3X5 man Wyches with 1 Hydra gauntlet, agonizer and PGL on hekatrixes
Red Grief Battalion
Succubus (warlord) Blood Glaive, Stimm Addict
Succubus w/Shardnet and Impaler
4X5 manWyches with 1 Hydra gauntlet, agonizer on hekatrixes
12 man reaver squad, 4 grav talons, 4 blasters, agonizer on champ
Black Heart Patrol
Drazhar
5 man Incubi
3X5 man warriors w/blasters
2Xscourges w/4 blasters
4XRaiders w/dark lances
Roll the Incubi and HQ's in a party bus, a unit of Strife wyches and a kabalite unit in each of the other raiders, and the red grief wyches and reavers go for a first turn charge and try to lock down as much as possible, then everything else comes in turn 2 to stab or shoot all that is unstabbed or shot
Lord of Nonsensical Crap wrote: An interesting idea. Are you talking about mass-charging all of your Kabalites in, without any dedicated CC units backing them up? On the one hand, it would be a good use of their rerolling 1's thanks to Poisoned Tongue, but on the other, I think it all really depends on what your target is and how weakened they are.
That's precisely what i'm intending. You could not charge in, remain crazy close to what remains of what you shot up and accept any return fire and counter charges but with the weight of small units there would just be too many ways for your opponent to work around you over-watch fire. Better in my mind to charge in to weakened units and steal the initiative to get a few more kills in to maximise any morale casualties; as well as take any nearby objectives by making full use of your "ObSec" rules. With Archon and Sslyth backing you up, it's not really a brawl most opposing units will want to stick around in.
Been further considering what would be the best Webway Portal support unit and for me it comes back to more Kabalites. Wyches could only make the charge straight from the portal less than 50% of the time which is not reliable enough and Wracks while durable would need a way for a Haemonculus to get near and are limited by the max unit size of 10.
Kabalites however can make an immediate impact when they arrive with complementary shooting and can actually be made quite durable if deployed in cover by using the "Hunt from the Shadows" stratagem to give them a 3+ save. You also have the option to bring your supporting unit in on turn 2 and likely not make your charge, but instead utilise the bonus from the Animus Vitae along with the "Architects of Pain" stratagem to make them immune to leadership tests.
The other fun part is that since this is all reliant on just 3 venoms, one of which is a valuable HQ transport you need to deploy rather carefully, but with it all being Poisoned Tongue you can make good use of their unique "Insidious Misdirection" stratagem to redeploy your whole assault wing if required. Taking all this into account I've condensed the core into a single Kabal battalion now that's looking as follows.
Comes in at 665 points so crazy cheap. Season with Agoniser/Chain-snares to taste. Turn 1 Alpha Strike lands 34 Splinter wounds on top of the 6 Shredders and whatever Soul-Seeker kills. All maps out to annihilating around 18 MEQ or 35 GEQ in one go.... rather brutal.
for example scourge are by no means bad unless your planning on spamming ravagers which point for point do scourges task better in almost every way. I personally don't want to run 6-9 ravagers though lol.
That doesn't sound right. If that's true, then Scourges do suck, because Ravagers get the added durability.
Scourges are a scalpel and anti-alpha strike unit, at the same time are our best unit against Necron QS vehicles they hold different roles.
You can make them as Anti-horde as wella nd they are effective for how cheap they are. with Fire and Fade could keep them for a couple turns.
So you're saying it's only DL Scourges that are bad, compared to DL Ravagers. How about Blaster Scourges? How are Scourges anti-alpha strike? You can deepstrike Ravagers with a strategem.
Just a point - would it not make more sense to swap the artefacts around? i.e. give your warlord Soul Seeker and let the secondary Archon carry the Animus.
It's up to you, but I'd have thought the warlord would prefer the artefact that can be fired more than once.
So, I'm planning on bringing wyches to what I know to be a fairly elite, and fairly shooty meta in an event on sunday. Painted, based and WYSIWYG are requirements, which means I have access to all the wych units other than Beasts, plus Scourges to create my list.
The event is 1000pts, one detachment, no named HQs. Among my opponents I know 6 are running MEQ, with 2 being pure primaris marines, 3 are running Tau, the only guard player is running tanks, and I've been talking tactics with a guy going pure Prophets of Flesh covens. Basically only a single horde army going to be at the event, which would ordinarily mean I might lean Kabal, but my wyches are all painted (and also my favorites).
Do you figure that Cursed Blade for the strength, or Red Grief for the alpha strike would do better here? I have two versions of the same list, 2 succubi, 3 wych squads, 5 hellions, 6 reavers, 5 scourges. Blasters for everybody because I feel like it'll be pretty vehicle heavy.
I must say I like the look of the Namarti Thralls. I think maiby I will use them as mandrakes. I think they come out as slightly cheaper, and I will have no problem with finecast. I normaly think finecast is fine, but thin weapons does not work sop great.
I was planning kabal troops, with some HQ and maybe a flyer. Wytches fast attack.
The elite slot would be an haemoncoly, 2 units of mandrakes and 1 unit of incubi.
Also the paint that follow the age of sigmar deepkin is great for DE flesh.
vipoid wrote: Just a point - would it not make more sense to swap the artefacts around? i.e. give your warlord Soul Seeker and let the secondary Archon carry the Animus.
It's up to you, but I'd have thought the warlord would prefer the artefact that can be fired more than once.
Was musing that one through, and my thinking is that since you are in theory clearing an objective, once you've done your turn 2 assault you are going to want to leave some troops behind with one of the Archons to hold it while the rest carry on advancing. Makes sense for the warlord to be the one advancing and getting stuck in with his Soul Thirst trait and Sslyth guard, fighting to the last. As such, the one you want hanging back will want the range of the pistol so he isn't just sat around waiting for someone to come near.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So far I am trying to figure out what to do with the models I have so far. I am leaning MSU with Venoms. What I have so far is the following;
Should I run the Kabalite Warriors as two groups with a Blaster each in Venoms, or as one big group in the Raider. I am thinking of getting a Haemonculus and some Wracks too.
I am thinking I might take the female Kabalite that is hanging off the Raider and turn her into another Archon.
I would take the Kabalites in the venoms and the wyches in the raider. Really I see very little value in running small groups of wyches. There really isn't much you can do with the units you have right now other than just take them.
Looking at what you have you are lacking some dedicated anti-tank. A ravager would be nice for that or some scourge. Play a few small games and figure out what you like.
Perfect, I was thinking of doing just that with the Wyches and Kabalites. I will look into a Ravager or Scourges. Probably a Ravager though.
Lithanial wrote: So some potentially interesting thoughts over-night as I continue to develop this infantry-focused core out. People have been slating splinter fire a bit so I figured I would do some maths
Shuriken Catapult Shot vs T3 = 0.444 Wounds
Shuriken Catapult Shot vs T4 = 0.333 Wounds
So it's pretty easy to make your splinter fire 36% stronger than default without too much hassle and it actually pushes you a touch above unbuffed Shuriken fire against hordes, becoming better the higher the toughness goes. Sure the armour rend is a thing but you have a solid range advantage to utilise.
It's really weird to leave out the shuriken rending rule since it's such a huge part of their output. A shuriken shot kills 0.33 GEQs compared to a splinter's 0.22. For MEQs it's 0.17 vs 0.11. That is, it's 50% better in the two most common cases. And the extra range is only going to be a huge deal if you're on foot. You would trade all your splinter rifles for shuriken catapults in a second.
Edit: To be clear, Warriors are generally better than Guardians except as a deep-striking squad of 20, but it's mostly because they're just much cheaper (and a bit more durable).
Dionysodorus wrote: It's really weird to leave out the shuriken rending rule since it's such a huge part of their output. A shuriken shot kills 0.33 GEQs compared to a splinter's 0.22. For MEQs it's 0.17 vs 0.11. That is, it's 50% better in the two most common cases. And the extra range is only going to be a huge deal if you're on foot. You would trade all your splinter rifles for shuriken catapults in a second.
Except you are not taking into account the correct buffs to splinter fire. With Archon and Poison Tongue you get 0.151 kill per shot vs MEQ and 0.302 vs GEQ which is not a wide difference.
Sure Shuriken can get a re-roll on 1's to hit as well if you go Biel-tan, or have an Autarch nearby but Autarchs are rare with better things to do, and Biel-tan is one of the least competitive Craftworlds so also rare. Add on the range advantage of Splinter fire and the fact Drukhari actually have open-topped transports to make use of splinter fire in good quantities and you find that splinter fire isn't exactly anywhere near as disadvantaged as some have been trying to make out.
Dionysodorus wrote: It's really weird to leave out the shuriken rending rule since it's such a huge part of their output. A shuriken shot kills 0.33 GEQs compared to a splinter's 0.22. For MEQs it's 0.17 vs 0.11. That is, it's 50% better in the two most common cases. And the extra range is only going to be a huge deal if you're on foot. You would trade all your splinter rifles for shuriken catapults in a second.
Except you are not taking into account the correct buffs to splinter fire. With Archon and Poison Tongue you get 0.151 kill per shot vs MEQ and 0.302 vs GEQ which is not a wide difference.
Sure Shuriken can get a re-roll on 1's to hit as well if you go Biel-tan, or have an Autarch nearby but Autarchs are rare with better things to do, and Biel-tan is one of the least competitive Craftworlds so also rare. Add on the range advantage of Splinter fire and the fact Drukhari actually have open-topped transports to make use of splinter fire in good quantities and you find that splinter fire isn't exactly anywhere near as disadvantaged as some have been trying to make out.
...so what you're saying is that it's realistic that Kabalite warriors would be near an Archon who must either walk or spend CP to deep strike, but unrealistic that Guardians would be near an Autarch, who can deep strike for free or get on a bike with 16" basic move value. You're also saying that it's unrealistic for guardians to be Biel-Tan, but realistic for Kabalites to be Poison tongue?
Also, Guide, Doom, and Jinx don't exist and aren't spells that are commonly employed when using deep striking 20-man blobs?
the_scotsman wrote: ...so what you're saying is that it's realistic that Kabalite warriors would be near an Archon who must either walk or spend CP to deep strike, but unrealistic that Guardians would be near an Autarch, who can deep strike for free or get on a bike with 16" basic move value. You're also saying that it's unrealistic for guardians to be Biel-Tan, but realistic for Kabalites to be Poison tongue?
Also, Guide, Doom, and Jinx don't exist and aren't spells that are commonly employed when using deep striking 20-man blobs?
Doom & Jinx are usable by splinter weaponry as well though, since Aeldari mix is a thing if you want it to be. As such that gets removed from any weapon comparison equation as they are not exclusive to one weapon or the other. Guide is pretty much a moot point since most Farseer loadouts would rather use Smite/Executioner or if they do take guide would be using it on War Walkers.
It's not that an Autarch can't be near an emerging Guardian blob, it's that even if you do take one he wants to be elsewhere as Craftworlds have vastly more powerful guns to be giving his aura to or you have a laser lance Autarch who is busy charging with his Shining Spear buddies. Then given that the majority of competitive craftworlds list that have been seen have been Alaitoc/Ynnari focused I would indeed say that it's unrealistic to see a Guardian blob being Biel-Tan.
the_scotsman wrote: ...so what you're saying is that it's realistic that Kabalite warriors would be near an Archon who must either walk or spend CP to deep strike, but unrealistic that Guardians would be near an Autarch, who can deep strike for free or get on a bike with 16" basic move value. You're also saying that it's unrealistic for guardians to be Biel-Tan, but realistic for Kabalites to be Poison tongue?
Also, Guide, Doom, and Jinx don't exist and aren't spells that are commonly employed when using deep striking 20-man blobs?
Doom & Jinx are usable by splinter weaponry as well though, since Aeldari mix is a thing if you want it to be. As such that gets removed from any weapon comparison equation as they are not exclusive to one weapon or the other. Guide is pretty much a moot point since most Farseer loadouts would rather use Smite/Executioner or if they do take guide would be using it on War Walkers.
It's not that an Autarch can't be near an emerging Guardian blob, it's that even if you do take one he wants to be elsewhere as Craftworlds have vastly more powerful guns to be giving his aura to or you have a laser lance Autarch who is busy charging with his Shining Spear buddies. Then given that the majority of competitive craftworlds list that have been seen have been Alaitoc/Ynnari focused I would indeed say that it's unrealistic to see a Guardian blob being Biel-Tan.
It is exceedingly easy to ensure that your autarch is both within range of a deep striking guardian blob and performing his own optimum function. This is exactly how we've been seeing guardian blobs used in competitive play.
Nobody is arguing that you CANT use a warrior blob instead, just that it's pointless to discuss as a competitive option because CWE guardians are highly similar and are, quite simply, better at the very same job.
Their guns with no buffs start stronger.
Their guns with buffs end up stronger.
They deep strike and fire from the very same optimum range.
they deep strike using the same stratagem, for the same cost.
They both have access to the very same optional follow up stratagems (-1 to hit on demand, Fire and Fade)
The only functional difference is that the guardians have more optimal buff HQs (The autarch does not solely exist to buff that 20-squad of guardians, it's something he does WHILE doing something else that's useful), the guardians have more buffs available (Besides just jinx they could get Conceal, Quicken, Embolden, Protect, Fortune, Guide, Will of Asuran, Celestial Shield, Discipline of the Black Guardians, The Avatar Aura, etc). Oh, and the Guardians could if they wanted to attack a vehicle and not wound it on 6s, the Warriors can't do that.
The fact that you have to bring up "oh, I could bring some CWEHQs to gain my warriors access to a couple of the myriad psychic powers I could get on Guardians" pretty much highlights the issue: you can do this tactic, but it's never going to see comparable results as doing it with another unit that exists within the same blanket faction.
And that is actually OK. Eldar Guardian units' shtick has always been that they use tons of buffs and debuffs to make their low-quality troops function like super high quality troops. It's what they're good at. Where Kabalites are superior is mechanized fighting from transports, which guardians are rubbish at comparatively. Using each for the role they're less optimized for is completely possible, but it's disingenuous to pretend that they aren't less optimized for it.
the_scotsman wrote: It is exceedingly easy to ensure that your autarch is both within range of a deep striking guardian blob and performing his own optimum function. This is exactly how we've been seeing guardian blobs used in competitive play.
Nobody is arguing that you CANT use a warrior blob instead, just that it's pointless to discuss as a competitive option because CWE guardians are highly similar and are, quite simply, better at the very same job.
Their guns with no buffs start stronger.
Their guns with buffs end up stronger.
They deep strike and fire from the very same optimum range.
they deep strike using the same stratagem, for the same cost.
They both have access to the very same optional follow up stratagems (-1 to hit on demand, Fire and Fade)
The only functional difference is that the guardians have more optimal buff HQs (The autarch does not solely exist to buff that 20-squad of guardians, it's something he does WHILE doing something else that's useful), the guardians have more buffs available (Besides just jinx they could get Conceal, Quicken, Embolden, Protect, Fortune, Guide, Will of Asuran, Celestial Shield, Discipline of the Black Guardians, The Avatar Aura, etc). Oh, and the Guardians could if they wanted to attack a vehicle and not wound it on 6s, the Warriors can't do that.
The fact that you have to bring up "oh, I could bring some CWEHQs to gain my warriors access to a couple of the myriad psychic powers I could get on Guardians" pretty much highlights the issue: you can do this tactic, but it's never going to see comparable results as doing it with another unit that exists within the same blanket faction.
And that is actually OK. Eldar Guardian units' shtick has always been that they use tons of buffs and debuffs to make their low-quality troops function like super high quality troops. It's what they're good at. Where Kabalites are superior is mechanized fighting from transports, which guardians are rubbish at comparatively. Using each for the role they're less optimized for is completely possible, but it's disingenuous to pretend that they aren't less optimized for it.
You've kind of missed the point though. At no point have I argued one 20 man drop team to be the absolute above the other, just that splinter fire and Kabalites are not as far off from Guardians firepower as some people have been making out. I could quite happily do that though since the 4 shredders Kabalites can pack will rip apart 4.15 MEQ while at best the 2 Star-cannon & 4 extra catapult shots will only kill 2.22 MEQ so when you actually compare the 100% unbuffed squads you get.
Right. Almost like the guardians are priced based on access to an extremely high number of buffs, and kabalite warriors are priced based on access to fewer buffs, making a squad configuration with minimal thought to buffing more optimal on Kabalites (i.e. MSU) and a squad configuration that maximises the ability to put buffs on more optimal on guardians (i.e. max sized block).
for example scourge are by no means bad unless your planning on spamming ravagers which point for point do scourges task better in almost every way. I personally don't want to run 6-9 ravagers though lol.
That doesn't sound right. If that's true, then Scourges do suck, because Ravagers get the added durability.
Scourges are a scalpel and anti-alpha strike unit, at the same time are our best unit against Necron QS vehicles they hold different roles.
You can make them as Anti-horde as wella nd they are effective for how cheap they are. with Fire and Fade could keep them for a couple turns.
So you're saying it's only DL Scourges that are bad, compared to DL Ravagers. How about Blaster Scourges? How are Scourges anti-alpha strike? You can deepstrike Ravagers with a strategem.
Which is a crying shame, because I broke my "never build a model just for the rules" rule and built a squad with 4 dark lances back when the index first dropped.
Azuza001 wrote: I have a weird draw to homonculus with hex rifles..... Screened by talos lol.
I'm also feeling he's rifle on the Haemi, his 2+ gives him the best utility on it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: Which is a crying shame, because I broke my "never build a model just for the rules" rule and built a squad with 4 dark lances back when the index first dropped.
Same. Now I'm wondering if I can salvage all these shredder heads I cut off to glue blast pistol heads to the bodies and put them on my lance Scourges to turn them into shredders.
So...I'll have blasters made from shredders and shredders made from dark lances. And a bunch of dark lance barrels sitting around.
Azuza001 wrote: I have a weird draw to homonculus with hex rifles..... Screened by talos lol.
I'm also feeling he's rifle on the Haemi, his 2+ gives him the best utility on it.
he's def a better platform. But sniper weapons only work if you have a critical mass of them, so you'll want them on everyone who can take them (or nobody cuz the ossificator is good too)
Yeah, I feel like if you're not an adherent to the "Surely nice GW will not take my options from the index away!" religion, Hexrifle is an obvious choice over a stinger.
...Which means that for my haemonculus, I'll need to find a 28mm miniature popgun for the haemonculus' puppet, because the puppet has to have his weaponry.
Hey, a little thought I just had. With the stratagem "An esoteric kill, from afar" from Black Creed we could snipe a character with a Dark Lance or Disintegrator Cannon on a Raider.
Aaranis wrote: Hey, a little thought I just had. With the stratagem "An esoteric kill, from afar" from Black Creed we could snipe a character with a Dark Lance or Disintegrator Cannon on a Raider.
You could do that. But do not be afraid to dream a little bigger darlig. Use the tantalus.
I've been busy working away with math-hammer distilling down the Aeldari anti-vehicle options into a "Cost per damage" metric at T5-8 and it had been coming out with some interesting results.
Most of the widely viewed good anti-vehicle options work out around the 30-32 points per damage bracket for all but the toughest T8 targets. In this pool you have Ravagers, Crimson Hunters, Dark Reapers, full strength scourge squads, even a Wraithknight using a Titanic Ghostglaive works out around this. The few standouts so far have been:
1st Place - Fire Dragons, by far the most efficient even outside of the extra damage range at ~15 points per damage. Downsides as we all know, are getting them close and lack of durability
2nd Place - Min sized Haywire scourges at ~18-20 points per damage. Massive durability issue when taken this small but comes pre-packed with mobility
3rd Place - Fire Prisms with linked-fire stratagem at ~25.5 points per damage. Solidly versatile but a CP drain
3rd Place - Wraithguard with Wraithcannons also come in at ~25.5 points per damage. Great durability, poor speed
5th Place - Crimson Hunter Exarch, at ~28 points per damage which just beats out the Hemlock at T7 even with Smite. The anti-fly rerolls which drop this down to ~21 points per damage, landing 8.3 damage each in one salvo.
Special Mention: Hemlock Wraithfighter at a mixed ~24.5 points per damage up to T6 then ~29 points per damage for beyond but has the possibility of a good amount of its damage being shut down by opposing psykers.
---
It's a little disappointing that the only thing Drukhari seem to have that comes close to the efficiency of the Craftworlds for dedicated tank busting units is small units of Scourges but I guess it's testament to the more generalist nature of the army - little bits of anti-tank scattered throughout.
That said, it's crazy tempting to ally an Air Wing of 1x Hemlock 2x Crimson Hunter Exarch. You could get some real use out of the Hemlock's Mindshock pods and having a means of psychic denial.
Aaranis wrote: Hey, a little thought I just had. With the stratagem "An esoteric kill, from afar" from Black Creed we could snipe a character with a Dark Lance or Disintegrator Cannon on a Raider.
You could do that. But do not be afraid to dream a little bigger darlig. Use the tantalus.
Or a Reaper. You basically pay 20-ish points over a DL ravager for the ability to use the stratagem to thwack a pesky character.
Lithanial wrote: I've been busy working away with math-hammer distilling down the Aeldari anti-vehicle options into a "Cost per damage" metric at T5-8 and it had been coming out with some interesting results.
Most of the widely viewed good anti-vehicle options work out around the 30-32 points per damage bracket for all but the toughest T8 targets. In this pool you have Ravagers, Crimson Hunters, Dark Reapers, full strength scourge squads, even a Wraithknight using a Titanic Ghostglaive works out around this. The few standouts so far have been:
1st Place - Fire Dragons, by far the most efficient even outside of the extra damage range at ~15 points per damage. Downsides as we all know, are getting them close and lack of durability
2nd Place - Min sized Haywire scourges at ~18-20 points per damage. Massive durability issue when taken this small but comes pre-packed with mobility
3rd Place - Fire Prisms with linked-fire stratagem at ~25.5 points per damage. Solidly versatile but a CP drain
3rd Place - Wraithguard with Wraithcannons also come in at ~25.5 points per damage. Great durability, poor speed
5th Place - Crimson Hunter Exarch, at ~28 points per damage which just beats out the Hemlock at T7 even with Smite. The anti-fly rerolls which drop this down to ~21 points per damage, landing 8.3 damage each in one salvo.
Special Mention: Hemlock Wraithfighter at a mixed ~24.5 points per damage up to T6 then ~29 points per damage for beyond but has the possibility of a good amount of its damage being shut down by opposing psykers.
---
It's a little disappointing that the only thing Drukhari seem to have that comes close to the efficiency of the Craftworlds for dedicated tank busting units is small units of Scourges but I guess it's testament to the more generalist nature of the army - little bits of anti-tank scattered throughout.
That said, it's crazy tempting to ally an Air Wing of 1x Hemlock 2x Crimson Hunter Exarch. You could get some real use out of the Hemlock's Mindshock pods and having a means of psychic denial.
How'd that look like if the target had 4++? I swear Fire Prisms are the worst against daemon primarchs, Wraithguard being a close second.
karandrasss wrote: How'd that look like if the target had 4++? I swear Fire Prisms are the worst against daemon primarchs, Wraithguard being a close second.
Depends if the target is a vehicle or a monster. Most things jump over 50 points per wound but you do get something rather hilarious as Mandrakes become decent.
1st - Haywire Scourges at 18 points per wound but only vs vehicles
2nd - Fire Dragons at ~31 points per wound
3rd - Mandrake Baleblast at 36 points per wound
4th - Dark Reapers at 43.5 points per wound
Dark reapers massively fall of against T8 however and Fire Prisms with linked fire bump them off 4th place against normal targets.
If the target is a monster, Razorwings come off surprisingly well when using Disintegrator Cannons combined with their Necro-Toxin missiles to be 38 points per wound vs T5, and ~47 points vs anything tougher. But that's only due to the strength of poison against monsters. In comparison, Kabalites in rapid fire range achieve 27 points per wound without any firing buffs.
If the target flies, Crimson Hunter Exarch still do well at 39 points per wound to T7 and less, and ~46 points to T8.
I know the Writ of the Living Muse, the Djin Blade and the Succubus weapons are good. However, I'm curious about the artefacts that haven't been talked about much:
- Parasite's Kiss
- Helm of Spite
- Nightmare Doll
- Soul Seeker
- Obsidian Veil
- Phial Bouquet
- Spirit Sting
- Flensing Blade
the_scotsman wrote: ...so what you're saying is that it's realistic that Kabalite warriors would be near an Archon who must either walk or spend CP to deep strike, but unrealistic that Guardians would be near an Autarch, who can deep strike for free or get on a bike with 16" basic move value. You're also saying that it's unrealistic for guardians to be Biel-Tan, but realistic for Kabalites to be Poison tongue?
Also, Guide, Doom, and Jinx don't exist and aren't spells that are commonly employed when using deep striking 20-man blobs?
Doom & Jinx are usable by splinter weaponry as well though, since Aeldari mix is a thing if you want it to be. As such that gets removed from any weapon comparison equation as they are not exclusive to one weapon or the other. Guide is pretty much a moot point since most Farseer loadouts would rather use Smite/Executioner or if they do take guide would be using it on War Walkers.
It's not that an Autarch can't be near an emerging Guardian blob, it's that even if you do take one he wants to be elsewhere as Craftworlds have vastly more powerful guns to be giving his aura to or you have a laser lance Autarch who is busy charging with his Shining Spear buddies. Then given that the majority of competitive craftworlds list that have been seen have been Alaitoc/Ynnari focused I would indeed say that it's unrealistic to see a Guardian blob being Biel-Tan.
I'm not a tournament player or anything, but I am a Biel-tan player who frequently uses 20-man Guardian Blobs with 2 Shuriken Cannons from the Webway. I usually only buff them with Doom, since it ensures the target will eventually die, not just from guardian only fire if necessary. I play Biel-tan because it makes a lot of the core of my army function as if it had an Autarch around, without actually sinking points on the model (I find them fairly underwhelming, especially given the strength of the psychic powers you have to trade for them).
I really see no scenario outside of kiting at more than 12" where Kabalites can keep up with the Guardian in terms of offensive output. Doom on an Infantry squad facing 36 4 STR Shuriken shots + 6 6 STR shots... you should wipe them out, or at least put a large hole in them. But the more significant stat is what these guys can do on harder targets (Rhinos, Dreadnoughts, etc) - wounding on 5's, shredding on 6's, with rerolls. That's what I love getting into. And that flexibility is where Kabalites cannot compete. Even if we go vs a Leman Russ, so they're both wounding on 6's, that Rend is still significant. I think where Kabalites actually have the advantage over Guardians is on things like Guardsmen and Cultists... they'll inflict a few less wounds, but their cost offsets this enough (being 25% cheaper).
As for Kabalites... I think my wife plans on making minimum squads on Venoms with Blaster weapons. She hasn't put it on the table yet, but her list is pretty much gravitating to Kabalites on Venoms and Wyches on Raiders, which seems to be the prevailing thought.
I know the Writ of the Living Muse, the Djin Blade and the Succubus weapons are good. However, I'm curious about the artefacts that haven't been talked about much:
- Parasite's Kiss
- Helm of Spite
- Nightmare Doll
- Soul Seeker
- Obsidian Veil
- Phial Bouquet
- Spirit Sting
- Flensing Blade
What do we think of these?
Parasites Kiss: Not bad, but IMO overshadowed by other pistol options now.
Helm of Spite: Autoinclude if vs lots of psykers. Absolutely awesome on anyone.
Nightmare Doll: Largely unnecessary IMO. The haemonculus is already a bear to kill for his points value, he doesn't necessarily need durability increases. Additional utility (Helm of Spite) or additional damage (spirit sting/Parasites kiss/flensing blade) would seem to be a better deal for him.
Soul seeker: Others seem to like it a lot more than me. Objectively, it seems...fine. Fun to be sure. But I think I'd always take the djin blade on a combat archon, especially with it getting rerolls to wound if you're poison tongue.
Obsidian veil: Another one others seem to like more than me. I dislike it because it doesn't help me while my Shadowfield is up to tank small arms fire I don't want to waste a shadowfield roll on. By contrast, The armor of misery lets me tank all the bolter shots I like on a 3+ save and I get to keep my shadowfield for plasma pistols, lascannons and the like. Against anything ap-1 or 0 it is equivalent to the Veil, or better, AND it works when my field is up, AND it gives me a -1 to hit in melee as a cherry on top. Flayed skull is great, just not for the relic.
Phial bouquet: Pure silliness. Tryptch whip works better on a Strife succubus because it combos nicely with the WL trait, this thing just...does random stuff. 2/6 drugs on succubi are whammies anyway (LD and WS) so odds are good you're just not getting anything, and even then you'll get stuff like +T when up against a S5 enemy, +Mov while in combat..just too random. But, the druggubus build (Extra drug trait, plus phial bouquet, roll them all randomly and use the Hyperstimm stratagem on her) has poential to be absolutely hilarious.
Spirit Sting: I actually like this one a lot. I've tried it on my Haemonculus and it's a great duelist weapon, pretty much auto-hits, auto-wounds and deals 1-2 damage highly reliably against anything. Too bad that Dark Creed you realy have to build an army around to get mileage out of them.
Flensing Blade: Super fun when paired with an ichor injector and +1 to wound trait to make the MURDERMONCULUS. I'm of the strong opinion that coven of 12 is underrated because it favors a playstyle many people don't use with their covens, i.e. mechanized fast assault infantry, with raiders full of haemonculi+Grots, raiders full of double-wrack squads, and venoms with wrack squads.
karandrasss wrote: How'd that look like if the target had 4++? I swear Fire Prisms are the worst against daemon primarchs, Wraithguard being a close second.
Depends if the target is a vehicle or a monster. Most things jump over 50 points per wound but you do get something rather hilarious as Mandrakes become decent.
1st - Haywire Scourges at 18 points per wound but only vs vehicles
2nd - Fire Dragons at ~31 points per wound
3rd - Mandrake Baleblast at 36 points per wound
4th - Dark Reapers at 43.5 points per wound
Dark reapers massively fall of against T8 however and Fire Prisms with linked fire bump them off 4th place against normal targets.
If the target is a monster, Razorwings come off surprisingly well when using Disintegrator Cannons combined with their Necro-Toxin missiles to be 38 points per wound vs T5, and ~47 points vs anything tougher. But that's only due to the strength of poison against monsters. In comparison, Kabalites in rapid fire range achieve 27 points per wound without any firing buffs.
If the target flies, Crimson Hunter Exarch still do well at 39 points per wound to T7 and less, and ~46 points to T8.
Interesting. Experience fits the math. Math-wise, what makes Fire Prisms/Wraithguard so much worse against T7 4++?
Purifying Tempest wrote: I'm not a tournament player or anything, but I am a Biel-tan player who frequently uses 20-man Guardian Blobs with 2 Shuriken Cannons from the Webway. I usually only buff them with Doom, since it ensures the target will eventually die, not just from guardian only fire if necessary. I play Biel-tan because it makes a lot of the core of my army function as if it had an Autarch around, without actually sinking points on the model (I find them fairly underwhelming, especially given the strength of the psychic powers you have to trade for them).
I really see no scenario outside of kiting at more than 12" where Kabalites can keep up with the Guardian in terms of offensive output. Doom on an Infantry squad facing 36 4 STR Shuriken shots + 6 6 STR shots... you should wipe them out, or at least put a large hole in them. But the more significant stat is what these guys can do on harder targets (Rhinos, Dreadnoughts, etc) - wounding on 5's, shredding on 6's, with rerolls. That's what I love getting into. And that flexibility is where Kabalites cannot compete. Even if we go vs a Leman Russ, so they're both wounding on 6's, that Rend is still significant. I think where Kabalites actually have the advantage over Guardians is on things like Guardsmen and Cultists... they'll inflict a few less wounds, but their cost offsets this enough (being 25% cheaper).
As for Kabalites... I think my wife plans on making minimum squads on Venoms with Blaster weapons. She hasn't put it on the table yet, but her list is pretty much gravitating to Kabalites on Venoms and Wyches on Raiders, which seems to be the prevailing thought.
Ok i'll bite.
If you are indeed playing as Biel-tan then the Doom cast is completely redundant since they on average will wipe out 9.33 MEQ so the last will generally flee to morale. Interestingly the Biel-Tan squad without doom and the Poison Tongue squad without Archon both do exactly the same amount of damage, but again the Poison Tongue squad is cheaper in points.
Then for performance against vehicles, the Poison Tongue squad is not as bad as you would think since they will still do exactly the same amount of damage to a T6 vehicle as the Biel-Tan squad and vastly beat the guardians vs T8. The only actual advantage the Biel-tan squad has is vs T7 vehicles where they are a touch better at finishing off a wounded vehicle, resulting in 3.74 damage to the Guardians vs 3.24 to the Kabalites.
That makes the whole extra performance case for Guardians sit on the usage of Doom, which is a discussion about Farseers, not a discussion about Kabalites vs Guardians.
Parasites Kiss: Not bad, but IMO overshadowed by other pistol options now.
Helm of Spite: Autoinclude if vs lots of psykers. Absolutely awesome on anyone.
Nightmare Doll: Largely unnecessary IMO. The haemonculus is already a bear to kill for his points value, he doesn't necessarily need durability increases. Additional utility (Helm of Spite) or additional damage (spirit sting/Parasites kiss/flensing blade) would seem to be a better deal for him.
Soul seeker: Others seem to like it a lot more than me. Objectively, it seems...fine. Fun to be sure. But I think I'd always take the djin blade on a combat archon, especially with it getting rerolls to wound if you're poison tongue.
Obsidian veil: Another one others seem to like more than me. I dislike it because it doesn't help me while my Shadowfield is up to tank small arms fire I don't want to waste a shadowfield roll on. By contrast, The armor of misery lets me tank all the bolter shots I like on a 3+ save and I get to keep my shadowfield for plasma pistols, lascannons and the like. Against anything ap-1 or 0 it is equivalent to the Veil, or better, AND it works when my field is up, AND it gives me a -1 to hit in melee as a cherry on top. Flayed skull is great, just not for the relic.
Phial bouquet: Pure silliness. Tryptch whip works better on a Strife succubus because it combos nicely with the WL trait, this thing just...does random stuff. 2/6 drugs on succubi are whammies anyway (LD and WS) so odds are good you're just not getting anything, and even then you'll get stuff like +T when up against a S5 enemy, +Mov while in combat..just too random. But, the druggubus build (Extra drug trait, plus phial bouquet, roll them all randomly and use the Hyperstimm stratagem on her) has poential to be absolutely hilarious.
Spirit Sting: I actually like this one a lot. I've tried it on my Haemonculus and it's a great duelist weapon, pretty much auto-hits, auto-wounds and deals 1-2 damage highly reliably against anything. Too bad that Dark Creed you realy have to build an army around to get mileage out of them.
Flensing Blade: Super fun when paired with an ichor injector and +1 to wound trait to make the MURDERMONCULUS. I'm of the strong opinion that coven of 12 is underrated because it favors a playstyle many people don't use with their covens, i.e. mechanized fast assault infantry, with raiders full of haemonculi+Grots, raiders full of double-wrack squads, and venoms with wrack squads.
Thanks for that writeup, Scotsman.
- I like the idea of Parasite's Kiss, but I think the current artefact rules hurt it. It seems like a tertiary option, but throwing it on an HQ for 5pts is quite different to having to pay 3CPs for it.
- Just a point but Poison Tongue doesn't actually give you rerolls to-wound with the Djin Blade (since it's an artefact).
- Regarding the Soul Seeker, it does give you some nice utility in terms of being able to snipe characters or fire at units out of LoS. Might be useful in situations where melee is dangerous and you don't want to risk your warlord. I can definitely see why you'd pick Djin Blade instead, though you could still have the Soul Seeker as a secondary artefact (if you have 2+ Archons).
- In terms of Obsidian Veil vs. Armour of Misery, I'm honestly torn. I do see your point about being able to use the Armour of misery against weaker shooting, so that you can save your 2++ for plasma and the like. However, once you fail that Shadowfield save, all you've got from then on is your armour. The Veil means you'll always have a 4++ (and if you're being shot by lasguns or bolters, you can always choose to take them on your 5+/6+++ save to preserve your Shadowfield). I'm not saying you're wrong - just explaining why I'd be hesitant to pick the Armour over the Veil.
Yeah, but in my experience, if I've failed my veil save, I've generally failed it against a melta gun or lascannon or something and my archon is either dead or nearly dead anyway. To me the distinction between being left with a 4++ and being left with a 3+ and -1 to hit in melee is pretty minimal because odds are good I'm dead shortly afterwards either way.
Unless you're taking the veil and just using your 2++ against any old shooting that comes your way, which seems like a good way to not get nearly as much value out of a potentially really awesome rule.
The biggest point the veil has over the armor for me is Flayed Skull over Obsidian Rose.
I must say, it is incredibly refreshing to have only put 1-2 artifacts out of our list of a dozen or so in the dustbin after one look. Compares pretty favorably to every other codex I've gotten for an army I play. I'm going to be spending a lot of cps on them I think. Really, the only never-include for me is the Animus. Shame because I loved using the Animus in my freakshow army in 7th ed.
As a whole I think the subfactions are pretty well handled. Each time I think I've dismissed one, some aspect of the warlord trait, the relic, the stratagem, whatever draws me back into it and makes me consider it.
Poison tongue is just worse Flayed Skull! Oh, wait, but that stratagem sounds pretty awesome, and the pistol is nifty. Lelith looks amazing, I gotta go Strife! Man, but that Red Grief relic and reavers are so nice...
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, but in my experience, if I've failed my veil save, I've generally failed it against a melta gun or lascannon or something and my archon is either dead or nearly dead anyway. To me the distinction between being left with a 4++ and being left with a 3+ and -1 to hit in melee is pretty minimal because odds are good I'm dead shortly afterwards either way.
In fairness, this is probably about as resilient as Archons have ever been. I mean, in 7th a failed wound against a Lascannon would be an auto-kill. Now you've got a 2/3 chance of surviving.
Of course, it's possible other shooting will finish him off, but I think it's still worth noting.
The biggest point the veil has over the armor for me is Flayed Skull over Obsidian Rose.
That's fair, though I do quite like Obsidian Rose.
the_scotsman wrote: I must say, it is incredibly refreshing to have only put 1-2 artifacts out of our list of a dozen or so in the dustbin after one look. Compares pretty favorably to every other codex I've gotten for an army I play. I'm going to be spending a lot of cps on them I think. Really, the only never-include for me is the Animus. Shame because I loved using the Animus in my freakshow army in 7th ed.
Yeah, aside from 1 or 2 , we have a really great selection of artefacts. One of the things I really like about the book.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Vipoid, Parasite's Kiss is free, not 5 pts. Splinter Pistols are free.
The parasites kiss is definitely not free. It is doubtful it will be first or second artifact taken, so if you are to take it it comes with the hefty price tag of 2cp.
I think he was saying as a weapon upgrade costing 5 points it would be worth it, but having to spend cp on it is not worth it
I must say I really love this codex. I long for a chance to play with it (only have 300+ points) but I'm having so many ideas for viable lists it's crazy. There's just so many combinations possible, the relics are mostly very nice (a nice change from AdMech) and the Warlord traits are in the same vein. I'm actually kind of sad that there's traits and relics to recycle CPs across so many codices because most of the time it will feel like an auto-take, and it doesn't encourage you trying something else because you'll feel like handicapping yourself. I feel with an average of 10 CPs before using any pre-game strats there's already much room for strats already, without the need to use recycling traits.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Vipoid, Parasite's Kiss is free, not 5 pts. Splinter Pistols are free.
It's not free though, that's the point. There's an opportunity cost (in taking it over other artefacts) or else a CP cost to take multiple artefacts.
I was comparing it to when it used to be 5pts, back in 7th. As it is, all artefacts are given the same value.
Aaranis wrote: I'm actually kind of sad that there's traits and relics to recycle CPs across so many codices because most of the time it will feel like an auto-take, and it doesn't encourage you trying something else because you'll feel like handicapping yourself.
Yeah, this is something I'm not fond of either. But then, I'm not very keen on the CP system in general.
Aaranis wrote: I feel with an average of 10 CPs before using any pre-game strats there's already much room for strats already, without the need to use recycling traits.
I posted my first list earlier, was wondering if you guys had any thoughts on that ? I'll look at it myself again with a fresh brain, been having new ideas in the meantime !
Aaranis wrote: There at last, finished my first draft for a 2000 pts list. Here it is:
Spoiler:
Batallion - Flayed Skull
- Archon, Warlord, Famed Savagery, Obsidian Veil, Huskblade and Blast pistol (In a Raider with 8 Wyches and the drugged Succubus)
- Archon, Agoniser
- 2x10 Warriors, Shredder, Splinter Cannon, in a Raider with DL, Splinter racks and Shock prow
- 5 Warriors, Blaster, Blast pistol, Power sword, in a Venom with 2 Splinter cannons
- 10 Scourges, 4 Haywire Blasters
Patrol - Red Grief
- Succubus, Hydra gauntlets
- 5 Wyches, Shardnet & Impaler, in a Venom with 2 Splinter cannons
Patrol - Red Grief
- Succubus, Stimm Addict, Blood Glaive
- 8 Wyches, Shardnet & Impaler
- Raider with DL and Shock Prow
- 2x6 Reavers, 2 Blasters, 2 Grav-talons
22 units, 94 models, 15 deployments, 100 PL, 10 CP (+1d3, -2 from relics and warlord traits).
I shamelessly stole the idea from Red Corsair for the Succu-bus with CC Archon. The Coven patrol takes board space while making for the frontlines on foot, buffed by the Haemonculus, the Reavers will either tarpit and/or focus on crippling enemy vehicles by shooting and charging them if possible, the Warriors shoot whatever is juicy enough for them, the Venoms shoot stuff and deliver the 5 Wyches where needed (they're more there as a tax really), and the Archon and Succubus on foot do whatever they can to either tie up enemy units or contest objectives. Scourges I'm not sure at all with their loadout, I feel like loading them up with Blasters would prove too pricy (and a pain to find so much Blasters), and I'm not certain on the use of the Haywire. If my opponent don't have vehicles they're just nice bolters. But they're cheap so why not ? I added 5 more Scourges for ablative wounds, and because their Shardcarbines aren't too bad.
EDIT: By the way, what do you guys think would be hard counters for Drukhari in general ? I know it may be hard to say with so many different loadouts possible, but I'm still wondering. Against a list with strong alpha strike too (like Blood Angels) what to do ? Hope we get the 1st turn ? I'm thinking we'll wish to have more shooting in our lists when facing T'au too, their Overwatch can be just too mean for our poor Wyches. Haemonculi's goons might take the blow easier though.
-I would drop the grotesques or poosibly a unit of Wracks for an additonal 2 taloi. Wracks are not great on foot IMO, and work better mounted up as part of a Dark Creed or Coven of 12 detachment. PoF should focus on either a big unit of taloi or a big unit of grotesques. With everything mounted except the coven, it seems like the enemy will get to fight half your army, then by the time the other half arrives they'll be able to go at them. 3 taloi can pull the Fire and Fade trick to keep pace with the rest of a list.
-10 scourges feels pointless unless you're running shredders with them. Otherwise you're relying on good targets made of both infantry and tanks within range of the drop.
-if you're running 2 wych patrols, make one of them not Red Grief. I'd maybe swap the reavers and the nicely geared succubus over to the first patrol with just the 5 wyches, then either swap the other succubus over to Lelith and make it a Strife patrol, or swap it over to Cursed Blade for slightly better combat stats (and you can run the second succubus with a shardnet, that build is dynamite)
-Why stimm addict over quicksilver? Quicksilver is such a dominantly good trait its hard to consider it over anything but Blood Dancer on lelith. maybe precision blows on a strife punchubbus with hydras.
-Why Veil over Djinn Blade on that archon build? Djinn Blade is just awesome on a savagery archon. If I were going for a huskblade/veil I'd probably give him the reroll to wound trait instead.
-Overall I think you're light on anti-tank. Odd that you'd say getting 4 blasters would be hard when you'll have 4 blasters just from buying the kits in this list - 3 warrior kits and you're already arming 2 squads with shredders. I'd take the extra shredder from the scourge kit and arm all the warriors with shredders, put all the blasters on scourges, then make a blaster and a haywire scourge squad instead of 4 haywire 6 splinter. Youll have extra haywire from the talos.
I've been busy working away with math-hammer distilling down the Aeldari anti-vehicle options into a "Cost per damage" metric at T5-8 and it had been coming out with some interesting results.
Most of the widely viewed good anti-vehicle options work out around the 30-32 points per damage bracket for all but the toughest T8 targets. In this pool you have Ravagers, Crimson Hunters, Dark Reapers, full strength scourge squads, even a Wraithknight using a Titanic Ghostglaive works out around this. The few standouts so far have been:
1st Place - Fire Dragons, by far the most efficient even outside of the extra damage range at ~15 points per damage. Downsides as we all know, are getting them close and lack of durability
2nd Place - Min sized Haywire scourges at ~18-20 points per damage. Massive durability issue when taken this small but comes pre-packed with mobility
3rd Place - Fire Prisms with linked-fire stratagem at ~25.5 points per damage. Solidly versatile but a CP drain
3rd Place - Wraithguard with Wraithcannons also come in at ~25.5 points per damage. Great durability, poor speed
5th Place - Crimson Hunter Exarch, at ~28 points per damage which just beats out the Hemlock at T7 even with Smite. The anti-fly rerolls which drop this down to ~21 points per damage, landing 8.3 damage each in one salvo.
Special Mention: Hemlock Wraithfighter at a mixed ~24.5 points per damage up to T6 then ~29 points per damage for beyond but has the possibility of a good amount of its damage being shut down by opposing psykers.
---
It's a little disappointing that the only thing Drukhari seem to have that comes close to the efficiency of the Craftworlds for dedicated tank busting units is small units of Scourges but I guess it's testament to the more generalist nature of the army - little bits of anti-tank scattered throughout.
That said, it's crazy tempting to ally an Air Wing of 1x Hemlock 2x Crimson Hunter Exarch. You could get some real use out of the Hemlock's Mindshock pods and having a means of psychic denial.
Can you post the entier list? It is less usefull when 5 out of 6 mentioned are not in the Drukhari codex,
Curious why I'm seeing so many lists with the Kabal battalion, honestly. IMO, we have two really solid Battalions, HQ wise - PoF with Urien and Vexator Mask Haemonculus, and Strife with Lelith and choice of either a Trypwych (Tryptch whip, blood dancer), Punchubus (Hydras, Precision blows, attack drugs), or basic Stuckubus (Shardnet+Move drugs)
Hey guys I just need a question answered. So for our relics we get 1 free then we have to use the prizes from the dark city if we wanted more, my understanding is that we can have a max of 3 relics for 3 command points. Is that right or are we limited to two?
the_scotsman wrote: Curious why I'm seeing so many lists with the Kabal battalion, honestly. IMO, we have two really solid Battalions, HQ wise - PoF with Urien and Vexator Mask Haemonculus, and Strife with Lelith and choice of either a Trypwych (Tryptch whip, blood dancer), Punchubus (Hydras, Precision blows, attack drugs), or basic Stuckubus (Shardnet+Move drugs)
Kabal troops are cheap, versatile and good, which makes them easy to fit into a battalion. Covens have a lot of good stuff going for them (a second Haemonculus is far less of a tax than a second Archon, for one), but Wracks are a touch mediocre compared to everything else, which makes investing into them to fill a battalion less desirable. As far as Wych Cults go, no idea. Personally, I have no interest in them, so I wouldn't end up using them regardless.
the_scotsman wrote: Curious why I'm seeing so many lists with the Kabal battalion, honestly. IMO, we have two really solid Battalions, HQ wise - PoF with Urien and Vexator Mask Haemonculus, and Strife with Lelith and choice of either a Trypwych (Tryptch whip, blood dancer), Punchubus (Hydras, Precision blows, attack drugs), or basic Stuckubus (Shardnet+Move drugs)
Personally, I use a Battalion because I want more Kabalites than I can fit into a single Patrol, and don't want the 3rd HQ choice that 3 Patrols would require.
Luthon1234 wrote: Hey guys I just need a question answered. So for our relics we get 1 free then we have to use the prizes from the dark city if we wanted more, my understanding is that we can have a max of 3 relics for 3 command points. Is that right or are we limited to two?
You can have 1 for free, 2 for 1cp, 3 for 3cp.
All armies relics work like that.
There is one additional restriction - your freebie relic needs to be either your warlord's...faction or detachment. I don't remember which, and it doesn't have to be ON your warlord, but it needs to be somehow adjacent to them.
the_scotsman wrote: Curious why I'm seeing so many lists with the Kabal battalion, honestly. IMO, we have two really solid Battalions, HQ wise - PoF with Urien and Vexator Mask Haemonculus, and Strife with Lelith and choice of either a Trypwych (Tryptch whip, blood dancer), Punchubus (Hydras, Precision blows, attack drugs), or basic Stuckubus (Shardnet+Move drugs)
Personally, I use a Battalion because I want more Kabalites than I can fit into a single Patrol, and don't want the 3rd HQ choice that 3 Patrols would require.
There are also 3 troop slots in a Spearhead, though. 3 Ravagers are pretty no-brainer, and it only requires a single archon.
I just don't see many instances where the second Archon in a battalion would not be a dead weight. First one can either get a court, or a relic, or a WL trait, but the second one...bleh.
-I would drop the grotesques or poosibly a unit of Wracks for an additonal 2 taloi. Wracks are not great on foot IMO, and work better mounted up as part of a Dark Creed or Coven of 12 detachment. PoF should focus on either a big unit of taloi or a big unit of grotesques. With everything mounted except the coven, it seems like the enemy will get to fight half your army, then by the time the other half arrives they'll be able to go at them. 3 taloi can pull the Fire and Fade trick to keep pace with the rest of a list.
-10 scourges feels pointless unless you're running shredders with them. Otherwise you're relying on good targets made of both infantry and tanks within range of the drop.
-if you're running 2 wych patrols, make one of them not Red Grief. I'd maybe swap the reavers and the nicely geared succubus over to the first patrol with just the 5 wyches, then either swap the other succubus over to Lelith and make it a Strife patrol, or swap it over to Cursed Blade for slightly better combat stats (and you can run the second succubus with a shardnet, that build is dynamite)
-Why stimm addict over quicksilver? Quicksilver is such a dominantly good trait its hard to consider it over anything but Blood Dancer on lelith. maybe precision blows on a strife punchubbus with hydras.
-Why Veil over Djinn Blade on that archon build? Djinn Blade is just awesome on a savagery archon. If I were going for a huskblade/veil I'd probably give him the reroll to wound trait instead.
-Overall I think you're light on anti-tank. Odd that you'd say getting 4 blasters would be hard when you'll have 4 blasters just from buying the kits in this list - 3 warrior kits and you're already arming 2 squads with shredders. I'd take the extra shredder from the scourge kit and arm all the warriors with shredders, put all the blasters on scourges, then make a blaster and a haywire scourge squad instead of 4 haywire 6 splinter. Youll have extra haywire from the talos.
Thanks for the feedback !
- Yes I planned on taking 3 Talos without the Grotesques initially, they would serve better at anti-tank, too. Thing is I had budget in mind for this list, it can be mostly completed with a few Start Collecting boxes, and regular boxes would've filled the rest. I'm torn because I prefer the Haemonculi theme to the Wyches, but they're far more expensive :/
- I wanted ablative wounds for the Scourges, and more often then not I find myself in range of both on the table of my LGS, so that was my train of thoughts. I also considered having less drops to grab 1st turn more easily, but you're right, I should just give a squad blasters and the other haywire blasters. Haywire blasters won't help when facing Daemons or such, though.
- The small Wyches detachment was the same Obsession for sake of clarity in game, I don't want to paint their bases differently or such to make the difference on the table. Also, they can still be buffed by the other Succubus if the need arises.
- Hmm Quicksilver don't look this awesome to me. I like the idea of a "live fast die young" drug-crazy Succubus on Overdose strat with the +1A and +1S drugs.
- I was strongly hesitating between the durability of the Veil and the damage of the Blade. I'm just mostly traumatised by TH captains and want protection from them
- It was my feel too, but thinking about it my usual opponents don't field more than 4 vehicles at once, so I thought I had this covered.
I'll rewrite my list after doing some more maths and thinking. It's just not simple building a Drukhari list ! Without field experience even more so. I'd like to build a really mean alpha strike that can cripple the opponent on the first turn, even if he has screens and such. Also not relying too much on DS because they're usually placing screens. And I'm afraid of not having all my army on the table turn 1 by keeping them in reserve for a turn or two. The army is still quite flimsy.
Any thoughts about how to best use the different Kabal Obsessions?
For example, what would you do differently in an Obsidian Rose list, compared to a Flayed Skull list? (Or vice versa.)
Or what would you use in a Poison Tongue list that you wouldn't use in a Black Heart list? (Outside of the relic and warlord trait that are exclusive to Black Heart, obviously.)
haha, to be totally honest the Talos kit comes with so many freaking bits I think you'd be totally capable of building 2 or even 3 taloi out of one box.
I built a Cronos pain engine at one point and built a second Talos using pretty much no greenstuff with the addition of a Necron Destroyer torso I had sitting around. Odd that you're trying to be budget conscious and using 20 Wracks though, wracks are one of the most expensive kits around!
I'm always of the opinion that if budget is a concern, you should just build your army slower and get more games in with it, and end up with the army you really want, rather than the one that is convenient to buy. Sure, 2 boxes of GOC, 2 Start Collecting boxes will net you a really serviceable wych list, but if you don't like wyches that much..whats the point? Better to get more practice in at smaller game sizes and end up with an army you really like.
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vipoid wrote: Any thoughts about how to best use the different Kabal Obsessions?
For example, what would you do differently in an Obsidian Rose list, compared to a Flayed Skull list? (Or vice versa.)
Or what would you use in a Poison Tongue list that you wouldn't use in a Black Heart list? (Outside of the relic and warlord trait that are exclusive to Black Heart, obviously.)
Obsidian Rose, a 20 warrior block would absolutely be happening, with shredders and splinters, and I'd love every minute of that 15" rapid fire with Fire and Fade. At least one 20-warrior block, maybe 2. Probably would want a Spearhead, 3 ravagers probably with 42" range lances, 1-2 20 warrior blocks, Archon rocking 4 sexy sneks along with him in his venom with the armor of misery and Eternal Hatred. Index blaster for sure on him.
flayed skull would be all mounted all the time. splinter cannons for everyone, liberal use of Screaming Jets, splinter racks on all the Raiders, and plenty of venoms as well. I'd definitely buy Flayed Skull venoms for my other allies to mount up in.
Black Heart, Either nothing but ravagers or nothing but planes. The boring one tbh.
The Poison Tongue I'd go full space pirate theme. Pair them with Red Grief wyches with a huge emphasis on Reavers and wyches with Shardnets, buy all your venoms from PT all your raiders from RG, have the wyches tie up the enemy so your Kabalites can disembark from their venoms and lay down the dakka. Either 3 patrols, 2 PT 1 RG, or RG battalion and PT battalion with lots of 5-man squads.
Yes Wracks are so expensive :( Well I included 10 because squads of five on foot aren't going to do much, and I hate the idea of tax units so I want to make every choice worthwhile. I could also just pick one min unit and hold a backfield objective with them and the Haemonculus. In the long term I'd like to try building lists focused around Covens so I could start as I go.
But you're right, I shouldn't go ahead and think of 2000 pts lists right now. I'll start with 1000, then 1500... The usual format around here is 2000 pts so that everyone can bring his favourite toys to the table.
the_scotsman wrote: Curious why I'm seeing so many lists with the Kabal battalion, honestly. IMO, we have two really solid Battalions, HQ wise - PoF with Urien and Vexator Mask Haemonculus, and Strife with Lelith and choice of either a Trypwych (Tryptch whip, blood dancer), Punchubus (Hydras, Precision blows, attack drugs), or basic Stuckubus (Shardnet+Move drugs)
Kabal troops are cheap, versatile and good, which makes them easy to fit into a battalion. Covens have a lot of good stuff going for them (a second Haemonculus is far less of a tax than a second Archon, for one), but Wracks are a touch mediocre compared to everything else, which makes investing into them to fill a battalion less desirable. As far as Wych Cults go, no idea. Personally, I have no interest in them, so I wouldn't end up using them regardless.
Have to question how you find a second haemonculus less a tax then a second archon. So far my archon and dracon have been amazing. Contrary to popular belief they are not that hard to get into the enemy, once there they are monsters. I think people are forgetting how difficult it is to bring guns to bare on characters when lightning fast vehicles are also assaulting their lines. Then again, I still find out that most people are not using their vehicles to assault for some reason. With fly on all our vehicles they should attempt a charge almost every turn possible. With that taken into account there is usually not a lot of gun drawn on my archons, and in cover I can always use their armor, and in a pinch burn Hunt from the Shadows to get a 3+ save (I tend to find they leapfrog from ruin to ruin killing units. So far I am loving this book, Archons are great, but clearly at 76-86 ppm you can't expect them to solo a primarch, use your stratagems and other units wisely and these guys just have their way with enemy infantry and support characters. Few characters get to pull a mini dark lance from their holster and greedo characters foolish enough to charge them. I have done this already, freed up the archon in the shooting phase and continued on assaulting shlubs. I know it's anecdotal, but I am trying to inspire people to actually play with their models for a couple months before condemning them based on forum group think, which tends to happen after every leak/release. Sort of like how stuckubus (thanks scotsman I can never not think of this now lol) is turning out to be much better then anyone would have guessed a week ago.
Obsidian Rose, a 20 warrior block would absolutely be happening, with shredders and splinters, and I'd love every minute of that 15" rapid fire with Fire and Fade. At least one 20-warrior block, maybe 2. Probably would want a Spearhead, 3 ravagers probably with 42" range lances, 1-2 20 warrior blocks, Archon rocking 4 sexy sneks along with him in his venom with the armor of misery and Eternal Hatred. Index blaster for sure on him.
flayed skull would be all mounted all the time. splinter cannons for everyone, liberal use of Screaming Jets, splinter racks on all the Raiders, and plenty of venoms as well. I'd definitely buy Flayed Skull venoms for my other allies to mount up in.
Black Heart, Either nothing but ravagers or nothing but planes. The boring one tbh.
The Poison Tongue I'd go full space pirate theme. Pair them with Red Grief wyches with a huge emphasis on Reavers and wyches with Shardnets, buy all your venoms from PT all your raiders from RG, have the wyches tie up the enemy so your Kabalites can disembark from their venoms and lay down the dakka. Either 3 patrols, 2 PT 1 RG, or RG battalion and PT battalion with lots of 5-man squads.
Nice. Cheers for that.
I think Flayed Skull and/or Poison Tongue will be my Kabals of choice. I really want to try that Poison Tongue & Red Grief pirate list.
I get what you guys were saying about the Parasite's Kiss not being worth the points now. It isn't terrible though. Regaining wounds is always pretty decent.
Niiai wrote: Can you post the entier list? It is less usefull when 5 out of 6 mentioned are not in the Drukhari codex,
I'll try and remember to get it up on GoogleDocs once I've actually finished it. Going through the Harlequin melee stats at the moment as i'm trying to refine how big I actually want my Harlequin division to be and their loadouts.
Useful stat for those with a Tyrant problem - Harlequin Troupe armed with Harlequin's Kiss and under their leader aura are 16.2 points per wound vs T7 4++, and at only AP -1 remains unaffected by most invulnerable saves. The cost of the Troupe leader himself makes a Skyweaver load net out at 19.34 points per wound. You get 9.72 wounds off on the charge
Ran a couple of Obsidian Rose Trueborn squads today with all Shredders agaisnt Guard, they were virtually deleting a unit a turn despite rolling a littel under average on the hit rolls. That 18" range was brilliant for them, and 21" RF range on Splitner Cannons was increadibly useful, there were quite a few times where the extra 3" were the difference between 6 and 12 shots. It's ironic that now they've been relegated to the index they've finally found their niche, Scourge can't make use of the Shredder quite as well becuase of the lack of <Kabal> but it's probably better to run them with Blasters or Haywire to begin with.
Also ran min squads of Reavers instead of large squads. I think I much prefer them this way, fast moving harassment teams that move in to tie things up and are much easier to hide on the way, your opponent also doesn't want to waste too much shooting on a min bike squad with questionable damage output. 12 bike squads on the otherhand are a large target that are pretty much priority #1 due to potential MW output.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I get what you guys were saying about the Parasite's Kiss not being worth the points now. It isn't terrible though. Regaining wounds is always pretty decent.
Oh, it's not bad at all - and I agree that regaining wounds is nice (not to mention fun).
The issue is that it's competing with a lot of other good artefacts, which effectively all have the same cost.
Wait - Trueborns are 11 pts ? Why did I hear or read somewhere that they were 20 pts ?
Hell yeah they're way more attractive that way. I was running the maths on Scourges with Shredders and thought they were good enough, but Trueborns with Shredders in a Venom perhaps ? With Flayed Skull they wouldn't get rerolls, but they'd ignore cover. Obsidian Rose in a Venom then ?
Shredders are our best ranged anti-MEQ weapons for infantry if I'm right ? Splinter weaponry gets more interesting the greater the Toughness but the lack of AP poses a problem. So I'd use Shredders to deal with more armoured foes. Beyond T6 there isn't that much infantry (for the rerolles to wound) so it looks perfect for that role.
Aaranis wrote: Wait - Trueborns are 11 pts ? Why did I hear or read somewhere that they were 20 pts ?
Hell yeah they're way more attractive that way. I was running the maths on Scourges with Shredders and thought they were good enough, but Trueborns with Shredders in a Venom perhaps ? With Flayed Skull they wouldn't get rerolls, but they'd ignore cover. Obsidian Rose in a Venom then ?
Shredders are our best ranged anti-MEQ weapons for infantry if I'm right ? Splinter weaponry gets more interesting the greater the Toughness but the lack of AP poses a problem. So I'd use Shredders to deal with more armoured foes. Beyond T6 there isn't that much infantry (for the rerolles to wound) so it looks perfect for that role.
Well, they're 19pts with a Shredder so I assume thats what was being referred to.
Thats a good point about the ingores cover benefit, I'd assumed it only applied to RF weapons like the re-roll 1's do, but looking again thats a separate sentence, and the +3" move on the Venom would be very usefull.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I get what you guys were saying about the Parasite's Kiss not being worth the points now. It isn't terrible though. Regaining wounds is always pretty decent.
Oh, it's not bad at all - and I agree that regaining wounds is nice (not to mention fun).
The issue is that it's competing with a lot of other good artefacts, which effectively all have the same cost.
Yeah, I am actually looking at using the Soul-Seeker instead now. Being able to snipe characters is pretty decent(even without LOS?!). The Armour of Misery is decent too. I am going to make a custom Kabal, so it really depends on which one of the official Kabal rules I want to use.
So for Kabalites, do I want to use a Blaster or a Shredder? They will be in 5-man groups in a Venom (two identical groups, I think). The 2x Splinter Cannon Venom seems like it will do the Infantry shredding job pretty well on its own. I worry more about vehicles (gonna get two Ravagers, I think).
I am going to probably convert the Shredder into a Blaster at this point.
Also, melee weapons on the Sybarites, yay or nay? I am thinking Agonizers. They are cheap and decent enough. But I suppose I can go all out with Splinter Rifles and a Blaster for the squad. I suppose I could even give him/her an Agonizer to go with the Splinter Rifle.
Aaranis wrote: Wait - Trueborns are 11 pts ? Why did I hear or read somewhere that they were 20 pts ?
Hell yeah they're way more attractive that way. I was running the maths on Scourges with Shredders and thought they were good enough, but Trueborns with Shredders in a Venom perhaps ? With Flayed Skull they wouldn't get rerolls, but they'd ignore cover. Obsidian Rose in a Venom then ?
Shredders are our best ranged anti-MEQ weapons for infantry if I'm right ? Splinter weaponry gets more interesting the greater the Toughness but the lack of AP poses a problem. So I'd use Shredders to deal with more armoured foes. Beyond T6 there isn't that much infantry (for the rerolles to wound) so it looks perfect for that role.
Well, they're 19pts with a Shredder so I assume thats what was being referred to.
Thats a good point about the ingores cover benefit, I'd assumed it only applied to RF weapons like the re-roll 1's do, but looking again thats a separate sentence, and the +3" move on the Venom would be very usefull.
I heard 20 pts base, for some reason. But whatever, I see the truth now.
I do believe Flayed Skull is one of the best traits for Venoms, dual splinter cannons that rerolls 1s to hit, ignores cover and moves 19" looks good on paper. Other nices traits would be Red Grief when playing with a CC crew so as to be able to engage as fast as possible (really want to paint a Ferrari logo on a pimped Venom for an Archon and his rich superficial friends), or the 6+++ from Black Heart, although I don't believe Venoms are made to last. You'll either have first turn and send them in the face of your opponent fast, or try to hide it and hope it doesn't get blasted in one go.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Yeah, I am actually looking at using the Soul-Seeker instead now. Being able to snipe characters is pretty decent(even without LOS?!).
I'm planning to use the Soul Seeker as well. I'm tempted to try a sort of loner Archon, who snipes at characters from behind walls and such.
So for Kabalites, do I want to use a Blaster or a Shredder? They will be in 5-man groups in a Venom (two identical groups, I think). The 2x Splinter Cannon Venom seems like it will do the Infantry shredding job pretty well on its own. I worry more about vehicles (gonna get two Ravagers, I think).
I am going to probably convert the Shredder into a Blaster at this point.
Shredders are decent now, but Blasters are still my weapon of choice. A lot of our guns need 6s to wound vehicles, so I prefer having some anti-vehicle guns to balance it out.
Regarding Venoms, the extra Splinter Cannon might not be worth it anymore. Especially if you're planning to get within 12" (so that the passengers can rapid fire), then you're paying 10pts for 2 extra splinter shots. It's up to you, of course, but it's definitely not the auto-take it was in 7th.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Also, melee weapons on the Sybarites, yay or nay? I am thinking Agonizers. They are cheap and decent enough. But I suppose I can go all out with Splinter Rifles and a Blaster for the squad. I suppose I could even give him/her an Agonizer to go with the Splinter Rifle.
Might depend on what Kabal you go with. If you choose Poison Tongue then you'll be rerolling 1s to-wound in melee with the Agoniser. Not a huge increase, but still. If you're planning to use your Kabalites quite aggressively, then it's definitely worth considering, I think.
If nothing else, I think we can probably afford to risk wasting a few points on fun upgrades.
Holy crap is this thread slowing down any? Anyway i'm gonna fix up some of my scourge to have shredders. I think it should work with reavers charging a melee horde after the shredder scourge do their work. I should have enough for 3 squads of shredder scourge.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Holy crap is this thread slowing down any? Anyway i'm gonna fix up some of my scourge to have shredders. I think it should work with reavers charging a melee horde after the shredder scourge do their work. I should have enough for 3 squads of shredder scourge.
Its a new "good" DE codex they are like Tyranids where there hasnt been a good one since 5th ed (many say 5th nids was bad compare to 4th, yes this is true but at least it was playable and you could have fun with it).
Remember that Reavers main weapon "Bladevanes" is fix Strength at 4, so dont take Agoniser or +1S things, a PW can be used still, but you are now Str 3 base
Oh i know bladevanes are set at str 4 ap 1. I've got the reavers mostly for mop up duty whereas the shredders do the bulk horde killing.
I should probably use a different unit but we'll see. It's mostly all i have on hand if i can get the shredder guns popped on some of the other scourge.
Venoms with 6+++ are surprisingly resilient. It takes on average 10 lance shots to drop a black heart venom.
8th edition has really benefited dark eldar vehicles. The change to wound chart is amazing for them, as most of the time t5 is just as good as t7. Against most dedicated anti tank stuff S8+ they will still be wounded on 3s, same as T7, and against small arms they still get wounded on 5s, same as t7. The big disadvantage is at S6 but that's proven as effective as it was previously due to not wounding T4 on 2s and not being able to easily glance through vehicle hull points.
The 4+ save compared to 3+ makes them succeptable to small arms, but again no real difference against dedicated anti tank. Then the 5++ puts them well above most other tanks for surviving anti tank shots.
The fact that they are 75 or 80 points each means you can field a chunk of them. Dropping 10+ raider equivilants is easy to do, and eating through 100 t5 4+/5++/6+++ wounds before they are in your lines is no easy feat.
So i just played a 2k points game vs an infantry imperial guard list with every guard unit as veterans, 2 units of 3 psykers each, a culexus assassin and 6 quad guns. I got first turn. In about 2 turns i destroyed about 80% of his army and i wasn't fully done with my 2nd turn before i had to leave. Admittedly i got something about reavers wrong and when he charged me though i could leave combat i wasn't able to charge more of his guys. I did that in the game i had but even still he was pretty thoroughly whipped. So much so he looked frustrated and i felt bad for him.
Shredders, reavers and the wyches just destroyed that army. Disintegrators on ravagers also helped. I only lost maybe a 5 man squad of scourge with 4 shredders and then a 10 man squad of scourge with 4 shredders. All the vehicles lived and barely took damage except the raider which only had 2 wounds left. Only lost maybe 4 of my 12 bikes all in one squad. I would've had 6 model bike squads but limits prevented it. Other than that most of everything was untouched.
Anyway i'm not sure if i just had a really good list to face his list, if dark eldar are good against imperial guard and gun-lines now or if dark eldar are stupidly strong. I get the feeling lots of 6-9 model reaver units to clog up enemy gun-lines turn 1 is gonna be huge. Either way Dark Eldar are GOOD! I'll see how we fare against other armies but i felt dirty with that game.
I am planing on running two 9 bike groups of reavers. Alongside a 20 man unit of helions. They are all red grief with kabalites backup.
I am putting 3 blasters on on of the reaver groups. But should I put 3 blasters on the other group as well? 17 points per blaster is a lot. I expect them to die quite fast once they start charging things. It almost double the cost of the reaver.
flamingkillamajig wrote: So i just played a 2k points game vs an infantry imperial guard list with every guard unit as veterans, 2 units of 3 psykers each, a culexus assassin and 6 quad guns. I got first turn. In about 2 turns i destroyed about 80% of his army and i wasn't fully done with my 2nd turn before i had to leave. Admittedly i got something about reavers wrong and when he charged me though i could leave combat i wasn't able to charge more of his guys. I did that in the game i had but even still he was pretty thoroughly whipped. So much so he looked frustrated and i felt bad for him.
Shredders, reavers and the wyches just destroyed that army. Disintegrators on ravagers also helped. I only lost maybe a 5 man squad of scourge with 4 shredders and then a 10 man squad of scourge with 4 shredders. All the vehicles lived and barely took damage except the raider which only had 2 wounds left. Only lost maybe 4 of my 12 bikes all in one squad. I would've had 6 model bike squads but limits prevented it. Other than that most of everything was untouched.
Anyway i'm not sure if i just had a really good list to face his list, if dark eldar are good against imperial guard and gun-lines now or if dark eldar are stupidly strong. I get the feeling lots of 6-9 model reaver units to clog up enemy gun-lines turn 1 is gonna be huge. Either way Dark Eldar are GOOD! I'll see how we fare against other armies but i felt dirty with that game.
You can spend CP to charge after falling back so if you had CP left over just count it as the stratagem for now and remember it for next time.
I am planing on running two 9 bike groups of reavers. Alongside a 20 man unit of helions. They are all red grief with kabalites backup.
I am putting 3 blasters on on of the reaver groups. But should I put 3 blasters on the other group as well? 17 points per blaster is a lot. I expect them to die quite fast once they start charging things. It almost double the cost of the reaver.
I've had no chance to field test with them yet, but I think it would be worth it because you add a totally new threat level to the unit. Yeah if you advance is only a 50/50 chance to hit, but even just 1 blaster is a big threat against vehicles and 3 in a 9 man can reliably be a threat to your foe. I mean for one more point you could have one more reaver which is not going to outshine the kill factor of that blaster.
Depends what's in the rest of your army whether you go blasters on reavers. I personally think there are better places to put blasters and keeping the reavers aw a cheap tie up unit. They are too fragile imo. A blaster in a venom or raider seems like a much better idea.
But if you are going pure wych cult then they are probably your best source of blasters
I dont like any upgrades on my reavers, blasters/lances etc.. will most times be 4+ instead of 3+ to hit and you'll be in combat the rest of the times.
Amishprn86 wrote: Nope 1-2 additional wounds for 6-9pts once a game isnt something i care about.
IDK 9 points for two is 1.5 mortal wounds on average which if you kill like anything above a guardsmen you are getting your points worth and that is assuming you only charge once.
I agree. For mortal wounds it is good value. However I understand not taking them. Its half a kabalite warrior squad or some upgrades on other units. The advantage of the codex being such good value.
So what are our dedicated anti-tank options (so, T7) ?
- Ravagers with Dark Lances of course;
- Raiders with a Dark Lance;
- Trueborns with Blasters (in a Venom);
- Scourges with Haywire or Blasters;
- Hellions from Cult of Cursed Blade, drugged up on overdosed Grave Lotus;
- Talos with Macro-Scalpels;
- Voidravens
My preferences being Scourges because I just love Scourges, blaster Trueborns because of the mobility (free to go where they need to shoot), and the Raiders just because I'd love to play many Raiders. Might grab a Ravager at some point too. Is the Disintegrator Cannon that good ? I feel like we already have loads of choices for dealing with elite units.
Dis cannons perform decent, doing 1.11111 wound compared to 1.55555 in comparison to the dark lance. Against t8 (not as common) and anything with an invulnerable save they are almost identical
Wyldcarde wrote:I agree. For mortal wounds it is good value. However I understand not taking them. Its half a kabalite warrior squad or some upgrades on other units. The advantage of the codex being such good value.
The past 3 games my 9 Reavers (3x3 units) have won me my games, but not b.c of damage, but objective grabbers, and tying up key units, if they did 2 extra wounds, it wouldnt have matter b.c 2 wounds on a tank doesnt do anything, i just see no value in "maybe" doing 1 or 2 wounds, especially on a unit that might not be in melee all game, each game i have had 1 unit never in melee.
Wyldcarde wrote:Dis cannons perform decent, doing 1.11111 wound compared to 1.55555 in comparison to the dark lance. Against t8 (not as common) and anything with an invulnerable save they are almost identical
Yeah, Dis cannons are amazing, i am for sure replacing all my Ravagers, RWJF and Raiders with them, i'll leave Lance to my Blasters.
So you have gone full dis cannon? I'm contemplating leaving ravagers with 1 d lance each as the ranged d6 damage dealer seems useful. How many blasters do you usually run?
But yeah did cannons seem great. Except against wave serpents...
Wyldcarde wrote: So you have gone full dis cannon? I'm contemplating leaving ravagers with 1 d lance each as the ranged d6 damage dealer seems useful. How many blasters do you usually run?
But yeah did cannons seem great. Except against wave serpents...
Well everything is bad against WS's honestly, they just take more fire power no matter what. -1 to hit (if advance and took), -1 damage, 3+, 6+++ is really strong, they are made to survive. At least we have enough fire power to take down a couple if we wanted too.
Now i dont go full DIssie, my Raiders are Lances and i have Blasters, just my RWJF's and Ravagers are now Dissie.
I am planing on running two 9 bike groups of reavers. Alongside a 20 man unit of helions. They are all red grief with kabalites backup.
I am putting 3 blasters on on of the reaver groups. But should I put 3 blasters on the other group as well? 17 points per blaster is a lot. I expect them to die quite fast once they start charging things. It almost double the cost of the reaver.
I like 2-3 blasters on a large unit of 9-12 bikers. Usually 3 man squads want to tarpit something or reach some objective. Bigger units instead can use the stratagem to cause mortal wounds when flying over enemy units and they can benefit from firing and falling back, thanks to another stratagem.
But I give blasters to my reavers only if I have some spared points, I don't think they're necessary. Especially if you already have lots of anti tank in a kabal battallion.
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Aaranis wrote: So what are our dedicated anti-tank options (so, T7) ?
- Ravagers with Dark Lances of course;
- Raiders with a Dark Lance;
- Trueborns with Blasters (in a Venom);
- Scourges with Haywire or Blasters;
- Hellions from Cult of Cursed Blade, drugged up on overdosed Grave Lotus;
- Talos with Macro-Scalpels;
- Voidravens
My preferences being Scourges because I just love Scourges, blaster Trueborns because of the mobility (free to go where they need to shoot), and the Raiders just because I'd love to play many Raiders. Might grab a Ravager at some point too. Is the Disintegrator Cannon that good ? I feel like we already have loads of choices for dealing with elite units.
I also like kabalites with blasters spam. The min unit in a venom with a blaster is 112 points, I usually bring 3-4 of them. Also 10 kabalites with 2 blasters in a raider with dark lance are a decent source of anti tank.
Blackie wrote: I also like kabalites with blasters spam. The min unit in a venom with a blaster is 112 points, I usually bring 3-4 of them. Also 10 kabalites with 2 blasters in a raider with dark lance are a decent source of anti tank.
You mean 5 Warriors in a Venom with a single blaster ? Doesn't seem worth the investment to me, I think I'll use Venoms for Trueborns and CC characters.
Yes I thought about running with 1 blaster and 1 splinter cannon in a Raider for each 10 men squad, but running Flayed Skull, the efficiency and lethality of the unit is at max when using 10 Warriors with 1 splinter cannon and splinter racks. That way I reroll the 1s to hit, and dish out 11,09 wounds to save on average.
The thing Trueborns in a Venom have against Scourges for a blaster squad role is that they're tougher to kill, can still DS for 1 CP, and reduces deployments on the table, while bringing more splinter weaponry to the table. 177 pts vs 128 pts, though. I wonder if I won't just take both, but use haywire for the Scourges.
Dissies are good and shredders are alright. I think shredders have potential if you have lots of bikes ready to charge the enemy after you hit with shredders.
Also i had 1 CP and not 2 but at the time it may have been 2 so it may have worked. God we have so many stratagems it's hard to keep track of them all. Not gonna lie we're a really good army right now. Only way i can think of to counter is flamers for my opponents. Seriously spammed reavers and like dissies, shredders and various anti-tank/monster is all you need.
So I'm still tinkering about Succubi loadouts and especially about a good Succubus on cocaine. If I give her Stimm Addict, somehow rolls twice the same result she now have +2 to the characteristic. Now, I equip the Phial Bouquet, and roll the same drug once more, woooh ! She's now high on +3. In a desperate situation, I use Hyperstymm Backlash to double all that. So if I'm correct and the dice gods are with me, she could either now have +6 attacks (one-woman army), +6 strength (I am become death, destroyer of worlds), +12 movement (GOTTA GO FAST), +6 toughness (my father was a Primarch), +12 Ld (what's the point) or +6 CC (I WILL hit you).
I swear I'll try this once and if it's that fun I'll go with her every game just for the fun aspect of having an Eldar Eversor going "OH YEAH" all the time.
EDIT: Bonus ! Prevent your enemies fleeing from this monstrosity with a shardnet & impaler ! No one is safe !
You know I was initially pretty enthralled by the blender-talos and its 10 attacks, but upon mathing it out I'm starting to think that the flail is a huge trap. It averages 2 dead MEQ, 4 dead GEQ, only a single wound on TEQ and a few wounds on vehicles/monsters. What is thing actually supposed to be good against? Macro-scalpels seem to match it or outperform against all targets. How dull.
2x 5 man groups of warriors with shredder in venoms with splinter cannons. 246
2x 10 man group of warriors with a dark lance. 160
2 Venoms with 2 splinter cannons. 170
I am not certain. But I usualy fight a ork player. And tha jump with a charge turn one makes me an unhappy camper. Having something to prevent things such as that is important.
Edit: I found out I have a Razorwing in my list. That can probably make up deep strike denying on one side of the flank. I stil need something on the right.
Niiai wrote: What do people do to deal with deep strikers?
2x 5 man groups of warriors. 60 points.
2x 5 man groups of warriors with shredder in venoms with splinter cannons. 246
2x 10 man group of warriors with a dark lance. 160
2 Venoms with 2 splinter cannons. 170
I am not certain. But I usualy fight a ork player. And tha jump with a charge turn one makes me an unhappy camper. Having something to prevent things such as that is important.
I think wracks is actually a decent choice here, especially supported by a haemonculus. Toughness 5 with 4++ and a 6+ fnp, even against 90 attacks 1-2 wracks should survive.
The speed we have should help. I'd figure bikes can at least go pretty far pretty fast. Maybe minimum size squad bikes and speed em up all around the board denying 9" deployments. You'd have to get turn one though.
I'd have to say what i used vs orks with the jump is normally just keeping my stuff in multiple areas so i didn't get everything charged all at once. I suppose they could do it again but i dunno.
BlaxicanX wrote: You know I was initially pretty enthralled by the blender-talos and its 10 attacks, but upon mathing it out I'm starting to think that the flail is a huge trap. It averages 2 dead MEQ, 4 dead GEQ, only a single wound on TEQ and a few wounds on vehicles/monsters. What is thing actually supposed to be good against? Macro-scalpels seem to match it or outperform against all targets. How dull.
S: User, AP0, D1 is not a weapon profile you ever want to see on a monster. Might as well arm it with a pair of pillows.
Niiai wrote: What do people do to deal with deep strikers?
2x 5 man groups of warriors. 60 points.
2x 5 man groups of warriors with shredder in venoms with splinter cannons. 246
2x 10 man group of warriors with a dark lance. 160
2 Venoms with 2 splinter cannons. 170
I am not certain. But I usualy fight a ork player. And tha jump with a charge turn one makes me an unhappy camper. Having something to prevent things such as that is important.
I think wracks is actually a decent choice here, especially supported by a haemonculus. Toughness 5 with 4++ and a 6+ fnp, even against 90 attacks 1-2 wracks should survive.
That sounds like an incredible sunk cost that is very unflexible once the game begins. The haemoncaly and the wraks will not do anything against a myriad of lists. Against gun lines for instance they will not provide any backup while they shoot down our transports. I want a unit that is either cheap or that is cheap enough and stil provides some utilaty.
Also moving wracks with 2 CP acros the board seems incredebly expensive.
The fact that Dark Eldar don't get an ability or stratagem that lets them disembark into combat after charging (SHOCK PROW! It's in the name!) really does hurt, both in terms of potency and in terms of my spirit.
BlaxicanX wrote: You know I was initially pretty enthralled by the blender-talos and its 10 attacks, but upon mathing it out I'm starting to think that the flail is a huge trap. It averages 2 dead MEQ, 4 dead GEQ, only a single wound on TEQ and a few wounds on vehicles/monsters. What is thing actually supposed to be good against? Macro-scalpels seem to match it or outperform against all targets. How dull.
S: User, AP0, D1 is not a weapon profile you ever want to see on a monster. Might as well arm it with a pair of pillows.
The main point with flails is really just to give them a cheap option if you want to give them twin liquefier guns, since they rewrote the way extra attacks for macro-scalpels work (and it doesn't make sense to shell out for a talos gauntlet, since a liquefier Talos is an anti-mook unit, not an anti-tank). I've personally found a Talos with 2xLG and chain flails to be awesome for taking out big blobs of T3 units with t-shirt saves.
A Talos with a twin liquifier gun, chainflails, and two splinter cannons is going to be killing 9.2 guardsmen on a turn it charges, and about 3.7 each turn it's stuck in combat thereafter.
For what you pay on a Talos, that's not exactly what I would want to use them for.
Fafnir wrote: The fact that Dark Eldar don't get an ability or stratagem that lets them disembark into combat after charging (SHOCK PROW! It's in the name!) really does hurt, both in terms of potency and in terms of my spirit.
Honestly, I'm annoyed that they can't disembark after moving as standard (even if the unit couldn't move any further after doing so or something).
Currently, what is even the point of them having open-topped vehicles? There's maybe one unit that get any meaningful benefit from the shooting side, none of our melee units benefit in the slightest, and we're actually slower than Eldar heavy tanks. Gee, I sure am glad we gave up all that armour so that we could go faster.
AnFéasógMór wrote: The main point with flails is really just to give them a cheap option if you want to give them twin liquefier guns, since they rewrote the way extra attacks for macro-scalpels work (and it doesn't make sense to shell out for a talos gauntlet, since a liquefier Talos is an anti-mook unit, not an anti-tank). I've personally found a Talos with 2xLG and chain flails to be awesome for taking out big blobs of T3 units with t-shirt saves.
I don't consider '1pt cheaper than the standard melee loadout' to be a cheap option.
I'm at the math again, challenging my Poison Tongue Kabalite concepts.... So far I've modeled up and so far been unhappy with:
1, Venom Kabalite squads w/ Shredders - 103 points basic for 3.33 MEQ kills. I'm massively favoring Webway Portal Kabalites here instead as the delivery mechanism is 100% reliable and at 76 points per 10, putting out 4.15 MEQ kills it's far more efficient.
2, 10 Man Kabalites w/ 2 Blaster & Splinter Cannon - 104 points, reliable to keep in an Archon aura but my main turn-off as i'm working out the math is that it only puts out 4.3 damage against vehicles so will need support to take out the average 6 wound light vehicle.
---
This is leading me to a new configuration of Kabalites:
15 Man Kabalites w/ 3 Blasters & Splinter Cannon - 151 points with an output of 6.3 damage to 18" range, it stays above that 6 damage threshold even with 5-6 casualties.
MEQ kills work out at 4.52 so two squads in concert can wipe out a full squad from 18" range after morale, and you've got a good chance of wiping out a 5 man.
GEQ kills work out at 7.09 - with a PGL on top you should cripple or destroy most squads through morale.
Importantly, you could raider-up a 10 man squad but it becomes hard to maintain both the volume of splinter fire necessary as well as stay within an Archon aura, plus you pay a fair bit more.
Just feels like it hits all sorts of great magic numbers...
I need to play with them a bit. But I was really excited for red grief bikes and helions.
I got the models (gangs of chomorag box) but when putting the lists they really do eat up points fast! 2 groups of 9 and a group of 20 helions do not seem sustainable at 20 points. There are so few points left for other stuff.
In 5th and 6th edition i had some boats with satonyx beast rutine for melee. 18 bikes and 20 helions leave little space for boats.
I thnk I need to reconsider some things. Have the reavers to tie things up. The helions seems like a genuine threat if you are reed grief. Hook stratagem and charge seems good. On averadge 6 to 7 mortal wounds on infantery.
If i cut down on the reavers I can soften up the enemy with some warriors in web way portal. Pop down, shoot chaff.
Blackie wrote: I also like kabalites with blasters spam. The min unit in a venom with a blaster is 112 points, I usually bring 3-4 of them. Also 10 kabalites with 2 blasters in a raider with dark lance are a decent source of anti tank.
You mean 5 Warriors in a Venom with a single blaster ? Doesn't seem worth the investment to me, I think I'll use Venoms for Trueborns and CC characters.
Yes I thought about running with 1 blaster and 1 splinter cannon in a Raider for each 10 men squad, but running Flayed Skull, the efficiency and lethality of the unit is at max when using 10 Warriors with 1 splinter cannon and splinter racks. That way I reroll the 1s to hit, and dish out 11,09 wounds to save on average.
The thing Trueborns in a Venom have against Scourges for a blaster squad role is that they're tougher to kill, can still DS for 1 CP, and reduces deployments on the table, while bringing more splinter weaponry to the table. 177 pts vs 128 pts, though. I wonder if I won't just take both, but use haywire for the Scourges.
Trueborn are too expensive, you're putting too many eggs in the same basket, kabalites are obj sec and unlocks patrols and battallion.... IMHO 3-5 units of kabalites in venoms with a blaster each are pretty solid. I prefer them over 10 man squads in raiders.
Lithanial wrote: I'm at the math again, challenging my Poison Tongue Kabalite concepts.... So far I've modeled up and so far been unhappy with:
1, Venom Kabalite squads w/ Shredders - 103 points basic for 3.33 MEQ kills. I'm massively favoring Webway Portal Kabalites here instead as the delivery mechanism is 100% reliable and at 76 points per 10, putting out 4.15 MEQ kills it's far more efficient.
2, 10 Man Kabalites w/ 2 Blaster & Splinter Cannon - 104 points, reliable to keep in an Archon aura but my main turn-off as i'm working out the math is that it only puts out 4.3 damage against vehicles so will need support to take out the average 6 wound light vehicle.
---
This is leading me to a new configuration of Kabalites:
15 Man Kabalites w/ 3 Blasters & Splinter Cannon - 151 points with an output of 6.3 damage to 18" range, it stays above that 6 damage threshold even with 5-6 casualties.
MEQ kills work out at 4.52 so two squads in concert can wipe out a full squad from 18" range after morale, and you've got a good chance of wiping out a 5 man.
GEQ kills work out at 7.09 - with a PGL on top you should cripple or destroy most squads through morale.
Importantly, you could raider-up a 10 man squad but it becomes hard to maintain both the volume of splinter fire necessary as well as stay within an Archon aura, plus you pay a fair bit more.
Just feels like it hits all sorts of great magic numbers...
I've been mathing a bit too to see what can 10 Flayed Skull Warriors in a Raider could do against anything non-vehicle. So far the best results I have, purely in terms of casualties, are:
- 10 Warriors in a Raider w/ disintegrator cannon and splinter racks, 7 splinter rifles, 1 splinter cannon, 2 shredders: 6,23 dead MEQ (implying they only have 1W each) for 176 pts or 28,25 pts/W
- 10 Warriors in a Raider w/ disintegrator cannon and splinter racks, 9 splinter rifles, 1 splinter cannon: 4,81 dead MEQ for 176 pts or 33,26 pts/W
If you're running Poisoned Tongue and they're in a transport you trade the rerolls of 1s to Hit for the 1s to Wound instead, so I don't know how that might change the results. If they're on foot you'll have both with an Archon but you have to be in 12" range.
Trueborn are too expensive, you're putting too many eggs in the same basket, kabalites are obj sec and unlocks patrols and battallion.... IMHO 3-5 units of kabalites in venoms with a blaster each are pretty solid. I prefer them over 10 man squads in raiders.
The trouble with Trueborn is that they were overpriced in the index (they should be, at most, 1-2pts more than Warriors), and didn't benefit from the cost-reductions that most of our other units got.
I am planning more of my army right now, and I am wondering what the verdict on Razorwing Jetfighters is. It seems like they are decently tough and pretty killy relative to say, a Ravager. I almost want to run a pair or even three of them instead of Ravagers and just get more Kabalites or Wyches in Raiders for ground forces.
Niiai wrote: If you are leaving the transports at home -1 to hit on the fev vehicles you do have sounds very good.
You trade away a lance for some rockets, that is fine.
I would sugest you have som form of blasters in the webway portal to keep your opponent on his toes.
I have two squads of Kabalites toting a Blaster and two squads of Reavers with a Blaster. I am still going to run a Dark Lance Raider with every squad of Wyches too.
Niiai wrote: If you are stil running raiders the -1 to hit argument becomes much weaker.
The flyer can deny deep strike though.
My army is mixed Kabalites in Venoms and Wyches in Raiders. Probably going to get another of each of the two Start Collectings just for the hell of it. That will bring me up to four Venoms and two Raiders. Six troops units should be enough plus it gives me enough for the +8 CP (I am converting one of the Raider passenger models into an Archon). I am thinking two Razorwings and a Voidraven too. That would give be the following:
4x Archons
2x Succubi
4x 5 Kabalite
2x 10 Wyches
4x Venoms
2x Raiders
2x 6 Reavers
2x Razorwing Jetfighters
1x Voidraven Bomber
So not a bad army. Kinda one dimensional, I guess. The best part is that it is actually pretty inexpensive.
FAQ about to drop in an hour or so ! Fasten your seatbelts, this might either bring tears of joy or be more painful than a night in an Haemonculus' mancave.
Pages 103 and 104 – Talos and Cronos, Keywords
Add ‘Fly’
Page 115 – Kabal Obsessions, Slay From the Skies
Change the penultimate sentence of rules text to read:
‘In addition, enemy units do not receive the benefit to their saving throws for being in cover against attacks made by models with this obsession that can Fly, or by models with this obsession that are embarked upon a Transport with this obsession that can Fly.’
Page 118 – Alliance of Agony
Add the following sentence:
‘You can only use this Stratagem once per battle.’
Page 125 – Labyrinthine Cunning
Change the rules text to read:
‘Whilst your Warlord is on the battlefield, roll a D6 each time you or your opponent spends a Command Point to use a Stratagem; you gain one Command Point for each roll of 6.’
FAQs
Q: The Voidraven Bomber’s Void Mine rule allows you to pick a unit the Voidraven flew over and roll three D6 for each Vehicle or Monster in the unit, or one D6 for ‘every other model in the unit’. Does this mean ‘every other type of model (other than Vehicles or Monsters)’, or ‘every second model’?
A: It means the former – roll one D6 for every model in the unit that is not a Vehicle or a Monster. So, for example, if the unit contains 10 Infantry models, you would roll ten D6.
Q: If a model is slain by an ossefactor, and the mortal wound inflicted by the ossefactor’s ability causes another model in that unit to be slain, do I roll again to see if another mortal wound
is inflicted?
A: No.
Q: If I am playing a matched play organised event that has an upper limit of 3 Detachments per Battle-forged army, what is the maximum number of Drukhari Patrol Detachments I
can include?
A: 3.
Whilst the Raiding Force ability in Codex: Drukhari mentions Battle-forged armies of 6 or more Detachments, this is designed for narrative play games, or for matched play games with larger (or no) limits on the number of Detachments you can include in your Battle-forged armies. Note that the guidelines provided for organised events in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook
are just that, and the event organiser may wish to modify these guidelines to best suit their event’s needs.
Seeing the nerf of the CCDS it seems Red Grief will become a more attractive choice, as being able to Advance and Charge turn 1 is the remedy to no DS turn 1.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Q: When a unit that can Fly declares a charge move against a
unit that is on the upper levels of a ruin, do I need to include
the vertical distance when making the subsequent charge move
for the unit?
A: No. A unit that can Fly effectively ignores vertical
distances when making a charge move. Note though that
the charging unit must still be within 12" (measured
directly ‘base-to-base’, i.e. diagonally) to be able to
declare the charge in the first place.
Wow, that's a massive boost to flying units. But on the other side:
Q: If a unit declares a charge against an enemy unit that is
entirely on the upper level of a terrain feature such as a ruin,
Sector Mechanicus structure, etc., but it cannot physically end
its charge move within 1" of any models from that unit (either
because there is not enough room to place the charging unit, or
because the charging unit is unable to end its move on the upper
levels of that terrain feature because of the expanded terrain
rules for it – as with ruins, for example), does that charge fail?
A: Yes.
I know not everyone played it by house ruling but now that it's official it'll be necessary to shoot up a unit on a roof a little bit to make room before charging.
Seeing the nerf of the CCDS it seems Red Grief will become a more attractive choice, as being able to Advance and Charge turn 1 is the remedy to no DS turn 1.
Wait what?! Are we not allowed to DS turn one now?
Seeing the nerf of the CCDS it seems Red Grief will become a more attractive choice, as being able to Advance and Charge turn 1 is the remedy to no DS turn 1.
Wait what?! Are we not allowed to DS turn one now?
When you DS turn one you must setup the unit in your own deployment zone, turn 2 and forwards you can deep strike as normal.
Hmm, i believe now since batallions got buffed alot, and black heart raiders dont provide any bonuses anymore to flayed skull warriors. I think it may be worth brining 2 black heart batallions instead for loads of CP, together with an red grief outrider detachment, though you will have to bring Drazhar since you can only have 3 archons now.
Zero point making the 3 patrol force now either when Battalions give 5CP. Looks like I was going down the right lines with my list design direction at least.
ThePie wrote:Hmm, i believe now since batallions got buffed alot, and black heart raiders dont provide any bonuses anymore to flayed skull warriors. I think it may be worth brining 2 black heart batallions instead for loads of CP, together with an red grief outrider detachment, though you will have to bring Drazhar since you can only have 3 archons now.
I understand you'd take ONE Black Heart battalion but not TWO, this is still the most "meh" Obsession to me, so why suffer two of them ? Especially since you'll most likely play the CP recycling stratagem. Use a Wych battalion instead, you keep your 13 CPs but you don't have to field all the Archons of Commoragh.
Lithanial wrote:Hard-capped at 3 Sslyth now... >.<
Zero point making the 3 patrol force now either when Battalions give 5CP. Looks like I was going down the right lines with my list design direction at least.
At least the Lahmean spam is already dead. If you don't play with limitations on detachments you can still use battalion + 3 patrols to have 12 CPs, and you can use still use Alliance of Agony.
ThePie wrote:Hmm, i believe now since batallions got buffed alot, and black heart raiders dont provide any bonuses anymore to flayed skull warriors. I think it may be worth brining 2 black heart batallions instead for loads of CP, together with an red grief outrider detachment, though you will have to bring Drazhar since you can only have 3 archons now.
I understand you'd take ONE Black Heart battalion but not TWO, this is still the most "meh" Obsession to me, so why suffer two of them ? Especially since you'll most likely play the CP recycling stratagem. Use a Wych battalion instead, you keep your 13 CPs but you don't have to field all the Archons of Commoragh.
Lithanial wrote:Hard-capped at 3 Sslyth now... >.<
Zero point making the 3 patrol force now either when Battalions give 5CP. Looks like I was going down the right lines with my list design direction at least.
At least the Lahmean spam is already dead. If you don't play with limitations on detachments you can still use battalion + 3 patrols to have 12 CPs, and you can use still use Alliance of Agony.
Very true, i just realized a wych battallion is the better choice.
Speaking of wych batallion, im thinking about running 3x5 wyches with shardnet&impaler, each with their own venom. Think it's a good way to fill up the troop slots and use thier utility to tie up units/vehicles so they can't do anything. Or perhaps it's better going cheap and running 3x5 barebone wyches for just objective capping.
I think overall we got off extremely light with the FAQ. Turn 1 distraction carnifex/DS alpha strike is the only thing we've definitely lost out on, but it's worth noting that we benefit as well, since other armies can't do it to us either. Going second is a lot safer for us now then it was before.
ThePie wrote:Hmm, i believe now since batallions got buffed alot, and black heart raiders dont provide any bonuses anymore to flayed skull warriors. I think it may be worth brining 2 black heart batallions instead for loads of CP, together with an red grief outrider detachment, though you will have to bring Drazhar since you can only have 3 archons now.
I understand you'd take ONE Black Heart battalion but not TWO, this is still the most "meh" Obsession to me, so why suffer two of them ? Especially since you'll most likely play the CP recycling stratagem. Use a Wych battalion instead, you keep your 13 CPs but you don't have to field all the Archons of Commoragh.
Lithanial wrote:Hard-capped at 3 Sslyth now... >.<
Zero point making the 3 patrol force now either when Battalions give 5CP. Looks like I was going down the right lines with my list design direction at least.
At least the Lahmean spam is already dead. If you don't play with limitations on detachments you can still use battalion + 3 patrols to have 12 CPs, and you can use still use Alliance of Agony.
Very true, i just realized a wych battallion is the better choice.
Speaking of wych batallion, im thinking about running 3x5 wyches with shardnet&impaler, each with their own venom. Think it's a good way to fill up the troop slots and use thier utility to tie up units/vehicles so they can't do anything. Or perhaps it's better going cheap and running 3x5 barebone wyches for just objective capping.
You can't go wrong with the shardnets, it's only 15 pts for the 3 squads and can help you survive when assaulting a unit on an objective so that they don't disengage and shot you. Remember Wyches are most durable in CC so you have to either be on a transport or in CC.
The new deep strike rule only affects close combat units that arrives by the Webway stratagem. Basically wyches and grotesques, which both can be successfully played in other ways. Shooty units can still be in range. We can still deepstrike in the enemy deployed zone in turn 2+.
I think it doesn't change almost anything. But I wasn't a fan of Webway Portal and Screaming Jets even before the FAQ and I didn't plan to rely on those stratagems anyway.
The spam limit just affects min units of reavers, but I think three squads are usually enough. Fielding more than 3 archons, succubus or haemys was silly and I'm glad it's not possible anymore, it will encourage some variety. But again, I don't think I'd even want three HQs of the same kind anyway.
I wonder what the dark eldar think of the transport deal. Was trying to comb through and see any thoughts, but either i missed it or didn't see it come up here of all places:
Q: The Tactical Reserves matched play rule states that at least
half the total number of units in my army must be set up on the
battlefield during Deployment. If I have units embarked in a
transport, do they count against the number of units I have to
set up during Deployment? If, for example, I have a Valkyrie
with three units embarked inside it that will arrive on the
battlefield during the game, how many other units do I need to
set up during Deployment to satisfy the Tactical Reserves rule?
A: Yes, embarked units count as units in your army,
so must be counted when referring to this rule. If you
have three units embarked inside a transport that will
arrive during the game, you need to set up at least four
other units on the battlefield during Deployment –
equivalently, if you set up three units in a transport on
the battlefield, you could set up four other units to arrive
during the game.
Meaning part of your reserves is units in transports which dark eldar kind of love to do. I also don't know how this quest interacts with the beta rule.
Anyone else miffed about them killing our raiding party three patrol thing? I know battallions were the way to go for CP anyways as long as you were playing large enough battles but they've now made it far less appealing to even attempt to build a unified cult/coven/kabal list, especially at low points. Here I was stoked to build my force up around three patrols until higher points battles then start looking at battalions there once points allowed but now... It would have taken them a couple lines of text to add in: If you take 3 drukhari patrols you get 6 CP instead of 4 (or heck I even would have taken 5 CP even though we need an extra HQ over a normal battalion).
Here they go dropping a (mostly) awesome codex that gets many DE players (myself included) pumped for the first time in a long time then they murder off one of our unique rules after 2 weeks. I know for many this isn't a big deal because plans were made to run battalions anyways but for me the thought of three small forces I could build up together just got shattered. They split our dex into thirds that needed a workaround to function properly, they gave us the workaround to do it then just spit on us 2 weeks later and give everyone something better.
Sorry for the ranting post but seriously I was stoked for this dex and what they did for us and now this turnaround just put such a sour taste in my mouth. Does this just crawl under anyone else's skin?
I mean, we still are the only army that can get command points through patrols. And it's not like your going to take 3 patrols at 2000 pts anyways, but for friendly games or campaigns, stuff like that it still works fine.
I do still miss my dracons thought. The idea of multiple achrons agreed doesn't seem right, but what's the excuse of killing off the dracon again? There is a model for it . . .and it would fix one of our biggest issues now thanks to the rule of 3 getting introduced.
The fact that you have to rely on freaking Drazhar to take multiple kabal detachments is really, really dumb. Especially since he's as bad as he is. DE needed some serious HQ love, but the FAQ just dialled that up to 11.
Looks like a folks are starting to look hard at vehicle squadrons to cope with the rule of 3 coming in. Worth keeping an eye on this one, as if they do start to pop up, the Voidraven Bomber gets much more interesting with its Void Mine.
I have to agree about HQ's, we already were hurting in the HQ part, but now even more so.
About Raiding party? I never used it anyways, Battalions were better before and they stilla re now, you dont take Raiding Party for CP, you take it b.c you need to fit that playstyle and we got extra CP for doing so.
The biggest thing for use is no Turn 1 Mandrakes/Scourges DSing effectiveness anymore. Many DS Mandrakes turn 2 anyways, but now we are forced too.
Over all i think it is good for the game, sadly its just going to stop some alpha strike shooting/melee and help artillery alpha strike. The Meta already was 6 Mortar teams for all Imperial players, these rules the highly enforces more lists like that. And hurts more stratagem based lists that used abilities, stratagems, etc.. to DS+move, more have a Scalpel DSing unit.
Its a shift, and IDK if it will be a good shift or not. most Spammed units dont need more than 3 Datasheets either, with Squadrons not being effected basically (still can take 18 Carnifex's and 10 LRBT's), this only really effects 1-2 units in Guard, 1-2 units in Orks, 2-3 units of Nids. But sadly it effects some smaller armies more.
BUT i think it will effect us more so. we already are very limited on units, this just makes it worst. If we play 1k games we are being forced to take things we might not want to play, and i dont mean force to if we want to win, i mean forced to, to even play. At 1k, we can only have 2per army, that is only 2 Bikes, 2 same HQ, 2 Ravagers, 2 Scourges, etc...
Edit: Sorry my english is bad and needed at add something
Trueborn are too expensive, you're putting too many eggs in the same basket, kabalites are obj sec and unlocks patrols and battallion.... IMHO 3-5 units of kabalites in venoms with a blaster each are pretty solid. I prefer them over 10 man squads in raiders.
The trouble with Trueborn is that they were overpriced in the index (they should be, at most, 1-2pts more than Warriors), and didn't benefit from the cost-reductions that most of our other units got.
Trueborn for me have one use, Shredders. 87pts for a squad that will butcher infantry units and unlike Scourges have the <Kabal> keyword so can gain the ignores cover of Flayed Skull or the +6" of Obsidian Rose. I ran 3 squads against Necrons and Tyranids over the weakend and both times all 3 squads made their points back. Of course, with any other weapon option Scourges or even Warriors are the better option by far.
Terrible. Ynnari only works if you've got one big squad with huge damage output potential that you can cast Word of the Phoenix on. Drukhari are an MSU army that has virtually no units like that, and the ones we do are Coven or vehicles so can't be Ynnari, or affected by Strength from Death anyway.
Anybody else confused with the Labarynthine Cunning FAQ? Combined with Writ of the Living Muse it feels like they are trying to turn Kabal of the Black Heart into a shooting castle, which is pretty much the antithesis of what our army should be.
It really does take me ages to figure out a battalion.... >.< I'm still looking for a good delivery mechanism for a combat focused Archon, particularly now Sslyth are capped at 3 and I got to thinking about Incubi since i'm building a predominantly infantry force.
At only 160 points it's not so bad if they get shot up while delivering the Archon into enemy lines, then if you can find any cover they become rather durable with a 2+ save and it's a prime target to use Lightning Fast Reflexes on for the -1 to hit. If you get both then they can withstand a crazy amount of firepower. Not invulnerable but disproportionate amounts for their cost and your Archon should see it through to survival. You could even have a few Sslyth following along with them just to be sure.
I was considering if Drazhar would be worth using instead of an Archon for this... in theory he should be what with being head of the Incubi and all.... But no, his math is terrible past the first turn, while an Archon can do more damage and for longer.
Lithanial wrote: Looks like a folks are starting to look hard at vehicle squadrons to cope with the rule of 3 coming in. Worth keeping an eye on this one, as if they do start to pop up, the Voidraven Bomber gets much more interesting with its Void Mine.
Thats not how vehicle squadrons work, they become individual units after you deploy them. Void mine v tanks still sucks. Though it isn't terrible vs squads.
2 archons, 3x5 kabalite warriors with blasters, 5 raiders = 700 pts
2 succubus, 3x5 wyches with nets = 250
1 archon, 1 homunculus, 3x5 warriors with blaster = 300
That's 3 battalions for 1250, giving 17+d3 cp after alliance of agony
What exactly are you proving here? That if you play a terrible list you can get a lot of CPs?
Dial down the snark mate. There's no need for that crap here. He's excited by the prospect of getting silly amounts of CP's easily with our army which he isn't wrong about. Maybe what he listed is in his personal collection.
For fans of the void mine I would like to point out the flyby stratagem thats lets you helions and reavers to do something similar to the voidmine.
It is also worth notesing that they both happens in the movement phase. You can void mine something, bringing the unit down. Then use the bikes impresive 26 range, or the gelions 15 - 20 to lay down more mortal wounds. Clear chaff and now you can mode closer with your other units.
The changes to Detachments has made me consider running a Kabal Battalion and then running an Outrider of Wych Cult. That will give me 9 CP. I can then figure out what else I want to do for a third detachment. Probably run two squads of 6 Reavers and a squad of Scourges to fill the Outrider.
Seeing the nerf of the CCDS it seems Red Grief will become a more attractive choice, as being able to Advance and Charge turn 1 is the remedy to no DS turn 1.
Wait what?! Are we not allowed to DS turn one now?
When you DS turn one you must setup the unit in your own deployment zone, turn 2 and forwards you can deep strike as normal.
Keep in mind that this is a beta rule, and at present you are under no obligation to use it.
Blackie wrote:The new deep strike rule only affects close combat units that arrives by the Webway stratagem. Basically wyches and grotesques, which both can be successfully played in other ways. Shooty units can still be in range. We can still deepstrike in the enemy deployed zone in turn 2+.
I think it doesn't change almost anything. But I wasn't a fan of Webway Portal and Screaming Jets even before the FAQ and I didn't plan to rely on those stratagems anyway.
The spam limit just affects min units of reavers, but I think three squads are usually enough. Fielding more than 3 archons, succubus or haemys was silly and I'm glad it's not possible anymore, it will encourage some variety. But again, I don't think I'd even want three HQs of the same kind anyway.
The 3 uses per datasheet guideline only applies to organized events, and even then they are free not to use it.
...no it didn't. The only change to it was changing "is alive" to "is on the battlefield," the rest is exactly the same. It's arguable less powerful now, because before you could ostensibly have kept your warlord safe in the Webway for three rounds (I don't know why you would, though)
