Amalgram was going to get nerfed hard, anyone who believed otherwise was head in sand. Obsec going to troops only seems odd, unless I am misunderstanding that.
The Infantry only Strategem is something I didn't see coming, but frankly shouldn't matter. Aside from a few units, it's not really THAT major.
Ok, so our bike Captain is slightly less tanky, oh well. My "all Bikes" gimmick list is likely less capable now, but be honest.
I'd trade these nerfs 3 times a day to keep the stuff that keeps us on top right now. Major damage bikes alpha striking, and hilariously cheap death squads of infantry, backed up by the single most miscosted unit in GW history. Our Faction Leader.
Since almost all weapons have -1AP a normal marine has the same armor as custodes... makes sense. SM termis with SS have a better armor than cutodes termis now... makes sense. put them in cover and they ignore -3 AP
I will just switch to my Nids and play custodes in 30k where the rules still match the fluff most of the time.
Auspice ONCE per game? Cmon that's a bit harsh...only obsec on troops is annoying for sure.
Why are we excluded from armor of contempt? That doesn't make a lot of sense....people will soon learn that custodes were not tough because of their statline....
I'm pretty sure these nerfs won't kill us, but it is the end of our superiority. I expect we'll find ourselves back at the ~50% win rate and severely struggle against any future metas.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: HOW? Please explain how a nerf to our ability for a once per turn strat now makes us the Imperial Guard?
Guys, this is me. Fezzik. King of Hyperboletopia, saying Hakuna your Tatas.
From the Art of War stream:
Jack Harpster
Blasted crater where they once were.
...
Adeptus custodes went from one of the best armies in the game to one of the worst.
Our durability was basically all tied to our strats. We can shut off re-rolls now only once per-game and only for infantry. We can't transhuman our bikes at all. We can only switch Katas once per-game.
I said it before the dataslate and I'll say it again now: we are squishy. Our durability was the strats. No strats, no durability. I believe Lennon said this on stream:
John Lennon
They're not durable for their points
And that's the crux. Without strat support, we fold like wet paper.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: HOW? Please explain how a nerf to our ability for a once per turn strat now makes us the Imperial Guard?
Guys, this is me. Fezzik. King of Hyperboletopia, saying Hakuna your Tatas.
From the Art of War stream:
Jack Harpster
Blasted crater where they once were.
...
Adeptus custodes went from one of the best armies in the game to one of the worst.
Our durability was basically all tied to our strats. We can shut off re-rolls now only once per-game and only for infantry. We can't transhuman our bikes at all. We can only switch Katas once per-game.
I said it before the dataslate and I'll say it again now: we are squishy. Our durability was the strats. No strats, no durability. I believe Lennon said this on stream:
John Lennon
They're not durable for their points
And that's the crux. Without strat support, we fold like wet paper.
Yeah I agree, I've been saying this since our release. No strats, no toughness...our statline is a joke in today's meta
Ok, so 3 wound 5/5 2+4++5+++ with a S8AP2 D2 melee Profile for 45 points is now GARBAGE? You guys need to pass that smoke over here because it seems wicked dank.
Yeah, we aren't king of the hill anymore, but be honest, were any of you actual top tier competitive players? I sincerely doubt it. Custodes are still able to destroy most things with bikes, which are still OP, Trajann is still horrifically under costed, and we are still a force that requires extremely dedicated firepower to move. A squad of 4 guardians counts as 8 bodies, and is next to impossible to shift without a hilarious amount of dedicated resources.
Now lets all go back to our meth pipes and declare custodes Dead. Can I have your Allarus models please?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Ok, so 3 wound 5/5 2+4++5+++ with a S8AP2 D2 melee Profile for 45 points is now GARBAGE? You guys need to pass that smoke over here because it seems wicked dank.
Yeah, we aren't king of the hill anymore, but be honest, were any of you actual top tier competitive players? I sincerely doubt it. Custodes are still able to destroy most things with bikes, which are still OP, Trajann is still horrifically under costed, and we are still a force that requires extremely dedicated firepower to move. A squad of 4 guardians counts as 8 bodies, and is next to impossible to shift without a hilarious amount of dedicated resources.
Now lets all go back to our meth pipes and declare custodes Dead. Can I have your Allarus models please?
We don't have a 5+++. For our points, that stat line is weak yes. As Lennon said: we're not durable for our points.
I agree this pretty much sinks us, remove the strat and we are not much more durable than marines for a whole load of more points.
This is such a poorly thought out "balance" update, bikes, trajan and dreads were the spammed over performing units along with some shield guard and guess what thats still hat will be taken - dreads even more so!
Once per game EA is a massive hit, upping its CP would have been one thing but just removing it is really harsh and such a poor way of handling stuff.
Turning our two Strats that let us change abilities to single use is again taking a sledgehammer to a nail but worse than that it removes a whole lot of interesting plays and tricks which made us fun to play. Now we just have to sit there and tank shots badly whilst having little damage output other than bikes as half the game just got increased armour saves.
Time to hit the shelf again :-(
WisdomLS wrote: I agree this pretty much sinks us, remove the strat and we are not much more durable than marines for a whole load of more points.
This is such a poorly thought out "balance" update, bikes, trajan and dreads were the spammed over performing units along with some shield guard and guess what thats still hat will be taken - dreads even more so!
Once per game EA is a massive hit, upping its CP would have been one thing but just removing it is really harsh and such a poor way of handling stuff.
Turning our two Strats that let us change abilities to single use is again taking a sledgehammer to a nail but worse than that it removes a whole lot of interesting plays and tricks which made us fun to play. Now we just have to sit there and tank shots badly whilst having little damage output other than bikes as half the game just got increased armour saves.
Time to hit the shelf again :-(
Don't get me started on how neither us nor the Sisters of Silence got the power armor boost. Ugh.
Well boys it was fun while it lasted. 3 months of being OP to being worse than what we were pre- PA. Stuff like this is why I haven’t been playing this game much recently.
Yeah don't worry guys. Custodes players are just overreacting as always. Everything is fine and if you argue otherwise, you either don't know what you are talking about and/or are a spoiled custodes player who only wants to play a broken faction...is basically what's going to be said on here and on the competitive subreddit.
An adjustment was needed, but this is just over the top. Which is kinda annoying because both the Harlequin and Tau changes are actually kinda sensible.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Ok, so 3 wound 5/5 2+4++5+++ with a S8AP2 D2 melee Profile for 45 points is now GARBAGE? You guys need to pass that smoke over here because it seems wicked dank.
Yeah, we aren't king of the hill anymore, but be honest, were any of you actual top tier competitive players? I sincerely doubt it. Custodes are still able to destroy most things with bikes, which are still OP, Trajann is still horrifically under costed, and we are still a force that requires extremely dedicated firepower to move. A squad of 4 guardians counts as 8 bodies, and is next to impossible to shift without a hilarious amount of dedicated resources.
Now lets all go back to our meth pipes and declare custodes Dead. Can I have your Allarus models please?
Bikes aren’t even close to OP anymore. Don’t want to be too harsh man, but it doesn’t seem you like you played the army much. First off there’s no unit in the book that costs 45 points and has a 5+++. Wardens are 50 and have a 6+++. Also you should realize that while bikes may still hit as hard, their durability dropped from nearly unkillable to being made of wet tissue paper.
In fact the date-slate itself makes this pretty clear. For example 2 Deathwing terminators; A) have 6 wounds split across 2 guys B) have perma transhuman which by in large is better than T6 C) cost less than 1 bike and D) can get -1 D. DG and Tson terminator are in similar positions to Deathwing with some various tradeoffs. Despite all this, GW (likely correctly) made the decision that all these should get an effective +1 to their armor save. This was the correct decision because the game is now at that level of lethality where these units needed some help to actually be durable.
Point being our bikes will disappear the moment they come into LoS. Which for how much they cost is unacceptable, no matter what their offensive output might be.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberias wrote: Yeah don't worry guys. Custodes players are just overreacting as always. Everything is fine and if you argue otherwise, you either don't know what you are talking about and/or are a spoiled custodes player who only wants to play a broken faction...is basically what's going to be said on here and on the competitive subreddit.
An adjustment was needed, but this is just over the top. Which is kinda annoying because both the Harlequin and Tau changes are actually kinda sensible.
It’s especially annoying because not all of us where saying the codex was bad on preview. And even if you did, we’ve all played the army enough to know what made it too good. Nerfs where of course needed, but being reduced to Trajann with FW dreads isn’t fun.
I'm sure most custodes players would have preferred to be less reliant on stratagems for survivability, having more expensive infantry and getting +1wound on all infantry, not only on characters.
Having 4 wounds on basic Infantry and 5 wounds on terminators would also distinguish us more from space marines, since armor saves are no longer that much of a big factor in that comparison.
So we got hit pretty hard, no doubt about that. Aside from abandoning the army, which is no option for me personally, this leaves the question where we go from here.
In my opinion Telemons are going to come back in style. They are still plenty tough without stratagems and benefit greatly from both the Emperor's Chosen and Shadowkeeper fighting style. I also think we are going to see even more Galatus and Achillus dreads.
As for Shield Hosts, I think Emperor's Chosen are still relevant since Tyranids can dish out a lot of mortal wounds, but I also think we are going to see a lot more Shadowkeeper lists since Grim Responsibility presents us with a durability boost we are desperately going to need.
With the advent of the general "Armor of Contempt" rule, Dreadhost might also be a very interesting option depending on how the meta shakes out.
Trajann is still going to be an auto include. The bike captain, who was a staple in most lists, really lost a lot of toughness now he no longer has access to durability stratagems. The Praetorian Plate terminator captain losing obsec is also really annoying.
I think I'm going forward with a Shadowkeepers list featuring a Blade Champ with Lockwarden and the Stasis Oubliette. Marines and Marine characters are going to come back swinging and this guy still carves them up pretty good. Maybe I'll even bring two Bladechamps just for the lulz.
I'm not sure on bikes being completely dead now, you just have to hide them really well and bank on them making their points back in one turn of engaging the enemy because afterwards they are going to be dead 100% of the time.
Edit: on a more positive note, all the bandwagon Custodes players are definitely going to jump ship now.
I'm going to pivot to heavy Sagittarum spam (6x unit of 3) with emissaries imperatus, a vexilor with the emissaries warlord trait, the ignore cover relic and dense cover banner (so 9" auras on him), shield captain with the 3" extra range on his reroll 1s aura upgrade.
Fill the rest up with Trajann, 2 achillus dreads, a galatus dread with eternal penitent.
Leaves me with 225 points, for now Ive spent that on Inquisitor Greyfax and a patrol detachment of aleya + 5 prosecutors, but I'm probably gonna swap those out since the 2 CP aint worth it (Id still like prosecutors in the list to hold the backfield objective and plant a banner on it etc.)
Lots of obsec still in this list and 2 9" aura bubbles for 3 very strong buffs, combined with emissaries and sagittarum who can advance and shoot both profiles still at 2+ is a lot of value.
I think the big thing I'm going to miss is the salvo launchers, but I'm hoping the dreads can compensate.
M0ff3l wrote: I'm going to pivot to heavy Sagittarum spam (6x unit of 3) with emissaries imperatus, a vexilor with the emissaries warlord trait, the ignore cover relic and dense cover banner (so 9" auras on him), shield captain with the 3" extra range on his reroll 1s aura upgrade.
Fill the rest up with Trajann, 2 achillus dreads, a galatus dread with eternal penitent.
Leaves me with 225 points, for now Ive spent that on Inquisitor Greyfax and a patrol detachment of aleya + 5 prosecutors, but I'm probably gonna swap those out since the 2 CP aint worth it (Id still like prosecutors in the list to hold the backfield objective and plant a banner on it etc.)
Lots of obsec still in this list and 2 9" aura bubbles for 3 very strong buffs, combined with emissaries and sagittarum who can advance and shoot both profiles still at 2+ is a lot of value.
I think the big thing I'm going to miss is the salvo launchers, but I'm hoping the dreads can compensate.
Sounds really cool, I've been saying since our release that Emissaries are a sleeper hit. I would only argue that Eternal Penitent is maybe more valuable on one of the Achillus dreads since the Achillus attacks are much more high quality than those of the Galatus, so one extra on an Achillus can go a long way.
M0ff3l wrote: I'm going to pivot to heavy Sagittarum spam (6x unit of 3) with emissaries imperatus, a vexilor with the emissaries warlord trait, the ignore cover relic and dense cover banner (so 9" auras on him), shield captain with the 3" extra range on his reroll 1s aura upgrade.
Fill the rest up with Trajann, 2 achillus dreads, a galatus dread with eternal penitent.
Leaves me with 225 points, for now Ive spent that on Inquisitor Greyfax and a patrol detachment of aleya + 5 prosecutors, but I'm probably gonna swap those out since the 2 CP aint worth it (Id still like prosecutors in the list to hold the backfield objective and plant a banner on it etc.)
Lots of obsec still in this list and 2 9" aura bubbles for 3 very strong buffs, combined with emissaries and sagittarum who can advance and shoot both profiles still at 2+ is a lot of value.
I think the big thing I'm going to miss is the salvo launchers, but I'm hoping the dreads can compensate.
Sounds really cool, I've been saying since our release that Emissaries are a sleeper hit. I would only argue that Eternal Penitent is maybe more valuable on one of the Achillus dreads since the Achillus attacks are much more high quality than those of the Galatus, so one extra on an Achillus can go a long way.
It's a toss up in my eyes, the attacks on the Achillus are more valuable, but the Galatus only really does good damage in melee so having that charge reroll on him for free is valuable. I was thinking of also spending a CP to have him deepstrike with from the golden light they came so having 2 shots at that 9" charge without spending even more CP seems good.
Again, I said this before our codex, and I'll say it now. Our strength has to be offense, not defense. 8th was about camping on objectives and rolling 3++ for everything. You can't survive that was now. A Blob of Conscripts with FRFSRF can delete us now in a single round of shooting.
I agree with the person that said Telemons. Telemons, backed up by other dreads, and Bike squads, make for a very destructive offense.
That being said, I feel odd saying this, but what good is Trajann if he's not in the middle of the board taking out big T8 targets? None. I agree his buffs give him great use, but otherwise aren't we just paying for a 165 pt auto-warlord, that will get killed before he earns his cost back?
M0ff3l wrote: I'm going to pivot to heavy Sagittarum spam (6x unit of 3) with emissaries imperatus, a vexilor with the emissaries warlord trait, the ignore cover relic and dense cover banner (so 9" auras on him), shield captain with the 3" extra range on his reroll 1s aura upgrade.
Fill the rest up with Trajann, 2 achillus dreads, a galatus dread with eternal penitent.
Leaves me with 225 points, for now Ive spent that on Inquisitor Greyfax and a patrol detachment of aleya + 5 prosecutors, but I'm probably gonna swap those out since the 2 CP aint worth it (Id still like prosecutors in the list to hold the backfield objective and plant a banner on it etc.)
Lots of obsec still in this list and 2 9" aura bubbles for 3 very strong buffs, combined with emissaries and sagittarum who can advance and shoot both profiles still at 2+ is a lot of value.
I think the big thing I'm going to miss is the salvo launchers, but I'm hoping the dreads can compensate.
Sounds really cool, I've been saying since our release that Emissaries are a sleeper hit. I would only argue that Eternal Penitent is maybe more valuable on one of the Achillus dreads since the Achillus attacks are much more high quality than those of the Galatus, so one extra on an Achillus can go a long way.
It's a toss up in my eyes, the attacks on the Achillus are more valuable, but the Galatus only really does good damage in melee so having that charge reroll on him for free is valuable. I was thinking of also spending a CP to have him deepstrike with from the golden light they came so having 2 shots at that 9" charge without spending even more CP seems good.
If you go the deepstrike route I'd seriously consider Dread Host and putting Eternal Penitent on the dreadnought you plan on deepstriking. An 8inch re-rollable charge is way better than a 9inch re-rollable charge and I feel that improved consistency is worth a lot if you plan on relying on an asset actually doing something the turn it comes down. The extra Ap Dread Host gets, also gained more value now that Armor of Contempt is a thing.
M0ff3l wrote: I'm going to pivot to heavy Sagittarum spam (6x unit of 3) with emissaries imperatus, a vexilor with the emissaries warlord trait, the ignore cover relic and dense cover banner (so 9" auras on him), shield captain with the 3" extra range on his reroll 1s aura upgrade.
Fill the rest up with Trajann, 2 achillus dreads, a galatus dread with eternal penitent.
Leaves me with 225 points, for now Ive spent that on Inquisitor Greyfax and a patrol detachment of aleya + 5 prosecutors, but I'm probably gonna swap those out since the 2 CP aint worth it (Id still like prosecutors in the list to hold the backfield objective and plant a banner on it etc.)
Lots of obsec still in this list and 2 9" aura bubbles for 3 very strong buffs, combined with emissaries and sagittarum who can advance and shoot both profiles still at 2+ is a lot of value.
I think the big thing I'm going to miss is the salvo launchers, but I'm hoping the dreads can compensate.
Sounds really cool, I've been saying since our release that Emissaries are a sleeper hit. I would only argue that Eternal Penitent is maybe more valuable on one of the Achillus dreads since the Achillus attacks are much more high quality than those of the Galatus, so one extra on an Achillus can go a long way.
It's a toss up in my eyes, the attacks on the Achillus are more valuable, but the Galatus only really does good damage in melee so having that charge reroll on him for free is valuable. I was thinking of also spending a CP to have him deepstrike with from the golden light they came so having 2 shots at that 9" charge without spending even more CP seems good.
If you go the deepstrike route I'd seriously consider Dread Host and putting Eternal Penitent on the dreadnought you plan on deepstriking. An 8inch re-rollable charge is way better than a 9inch re-rollable charge and I feel that improved consistency is worth a lot if you plan on relying on an asset actually doing something the turn it comes down. The extra Ap Dread Host gets, also gained more value now that Armor of Contempt is a thing.
I think a dread host dreadnought heavy list can definitely work, but I don't think it's worth it for me to switch hosts and lose out on my sagittarum shooting benefits just so my deepstriking dread can charge better.
M0ff3l wrote: I'm going to pivot to heavy Sagittarum spam (6x unit of 3) with emissaries imperatus, a vexilor with the emissaries warlord trait, the ignore cover relic and dense cover banner (so 9" auras on him), shield captain with the 3" extra range on his reroll 1s aura upgrade.
Fill the rest up with Trajann, 2 achillus dreads, a galatus dread with eternal penitent.
Leaves me with 225 points, for now Ive spent that on Inquisitor Greyfax and a patrol detachment of aleya + 5 prosecutors, but I'm probably gonna swap those out since the 2 CP aint worth it (Id still like prosecutors in the list to hold the backfield objective and plant a banner on it etc.)
Lots of obsec still in this list and 2 9" aura bubbles for 3 very strong buffs, combined with emissaries and sagittarum who can advance and shoot both profiles still at 2+ is a lot of value.
I think the big thing I'm going to miss is the salvo launchers, but I'm hoping the dreads can compensate.
Sounds really cool, I've been saying since our release that Emissaries are a sleeper hit. I would only argue that Eternal Penitent is maybe more valuable on one of the Achillus dreads since the Achillus attacks are much more high quality than those of the Galatus, so one extra on an Achillus can go a long way.
It's a toss up in my eyes, the attacks on the Achillus are more valuable, but the Galatus only really does good damage in melee so having that charge reroll on him for free is valuable. I was thinking of also spending a CP to have him deepstrike with from the golden light they came so having 2 shots at that 9" charge without spending even more CP seems good.
If you go the deepstrike route I'd seriously consider Dread Host and putting Eternal Penitent on the dreadnought you plan on deepstriking. An 8inch re-rollable charge is way better than a 9inch re-rollable charge and I feel that improved consistency is worth a lot if you plan on relying on an asset actually doing something the turn it comes down. The extra Ap Dread Host gets, also gained more value now that Armor of Contempt is a thing.
I think a dread host dreadnought heavy list can definitely work, but I don't think it's worth it for me to switch hosts and lose out on my sagittarum shooting benefits just so my deepstriking dread can charge better.
Fait point, Sagittarum are a very valuable asset in Emissaries. I hope you have fun with your list despite nerfs, I'm gonna rock my double Blade Champ Shadowkeepers and go down in style.
Eihnlazer wrote:And to be fair, im still gonna play custodes. I just wont be attending tournaments since my chance of winning said events are basically nill.
I played into new deathwing last night and boy do they outpreform us now.
permanent transhuman plus the new armor of contempt makes them more durable than we ever where.
I got flamed to heck on the competitive subreddit for arguing the Custodes nerfs were over the top. Now the goonhammer guys say the same in the latest round table and suddenly everyone agrees. People have no clue what they are talking about.
Deathwing feel and play like Custodes should feel like, which kinda stings. I think it's fine Deathwing gets perma transhuman, good for them, but in light of the recent nerfs it really hurts.
Stay away from tournaments for a while gents, whip out the tempest of war deck with a few friends, it's really great fun....possibly even with these harsh nerfs.
Custodes NEED access to Armor of Contempt, and let's face it, there is no reason they shouldn't have it. Hell, it might make their LandRaiders an interesting choice.
Compare Sagittarum to Heavy Intercessors. Heavy Intercessors are half the cost, and damned near the same defensively. Sags take out heavy infantry better, but Heavy Intercessors take out hordes better.
cuda1179 wrote: Custodes NEED access to Armor of Contempt, and let's face it, there is no reason they shouldn't have it. Hell, it might make their LandRaiders an interesting choice.
Compare Sagittarum to Heavy Intercessors. Heavy Intercessors are half the cost, and damned near the same defensively. Sags take out heavy infantry better, but Heavy Intercessors take out hordes better.
Agreed, couldn't work out why they didn't also get access to it after the heavy stratagem nerfs.
I think DG and TS matchups are even tougher than they were before - they have both gained significant durability over us and they have access to heavy psychic shenanigans which is gonna mess us up. It seems to me that the SoS rules need updating - a -1 to cast bubble doesn't seem that powerful now that you have squads of 6 zoanthropes running around with a +6 to cast!!
I have only just really started collecting custodes, not for competitive reasons more for the fact that the low model count provided a nice way to get back into the hobby after probably a year or so on the sidelines. For me, even if they are less competitive I don't mind that so much - it will be interesting to work out how to get the best of them!
Also I happen to live close to WHW and I kid you not saw a lot of new custodes players there recently, if they're just on it to powergame hopefully they will move onto nids or something else, definitely don't want to be perceived as jumping on the bandwagon. Will have to see how it plays out, but personally I don't think it'll make me stop pursuing custodes as an army.
Really? No one can guess why Custodes didnt get a buff in this patch? This was an appease the mob patch, not a balance patch. Further evidenced by the fact of the Nids now being DE levels of stupidly broken upon release.
It's the GW pendulum as usual. Release a codex that has an extreme skew list that tourney players will abuse and have absurd win rates, wait a few months before slamming it with heavy handed nerfs and releasing another codex with the same problems. Rinse and repeat.
I feel bad for Custodes players since it just forces a lot of you guys back to overly relying on FW units to compensate for the changes.
iGuy91 wrote: What a mess. Disaster of a dataslate.
Would have preferred a point hike PLUS a CP hike for auspice over a 1/game auspice, plus locking it to infantry.
I assume despite the poor wording, its 1/game.
Despite this. I don't know if I can really infantry spam, it just totally lacks anti-tank output we sorely need bikes for.
Pretty much. It's the problem when you have a faction like Custodes that has very few units as a stand-alone army. It means every change hits a little bit harder since you don't have the redundancy or breadth of range that a faction like SM have.
The problem is not just that we got nerfed. It's also that a lot of the power armoured enemies we barely outclassed before are much better than us. I almost never actually take 2+ saves, it's 4++ more than anything else because ap-2 or better is super common. But now I have to decide between the spear that wounds meqs on a 3+ and gives a 5+ save, or the axe that wounds on a 2 and gives a 4+. To a model that's 1/3 our cost. Then if they swing back with a chainsword we get a 3+ save. What is the point of 2+ armor this edition?
Mad_Proctologist wrote: The problem is not just that we got nerfed. It's also that a lot of the power armoured enemies we barely outclassed before are much better than us. I almost never actually take 2+ saves, it's 4++ more than anything else because ap-2 or better is super common. But now I have to decide between the spear that wounds meqs on a 3+ and gives a 5+ save, or the axe that wounds on a 2 and gives a 4+. To a model that's 1/3 our cost. Then if they swing back with a chainsword we get a 3+ save. What is the point of 2+ armor this edition?
It's mostly useless, but we still pay a premium for it. Which is why in 9th our durability was tied to the stratagems...which in turn now means we die even faster. So we have to take that into account going forward. You can't count on anything besides maybe dreadnoughts to survive on their own. Every unit has to make their points back really quickly after engaging the enemy and is then inevitably going to die.
Had an RTT with new rules on Saturday, so I think I have a clearer view of the dataslate than most (though not saying it's good, it is just very rapid compared to the publishing of the dataslate). The doomsayers are not overreacting that much. We are back at 8th post-PA shield+dread spam, but even that is a best case scenario. There are things we should try out, but some other things became crystal clear from 3 games (and the experiences of other players there). Two motnhs ago, post codex, pre harlies 3 players were 1, 3, 5. Same 3 players were 1, 15, 19 now, with the first guy being maybe the best player in our country. We had some CWE, no pure Harlies, 2 Crushers, and a mix of others.
Brought EI Battalion, Trajann and Bike Cap, 2x3 Sags, 1x8 Spear bomb, single allarus, 2 achillus, 1 galatus, 5 bikes. First game was mission 11, against DG termie spam. They are pretty much our hard counter now with armor of contempt. A sag squad attritioned a 10 men Blightlord bomb for 2 turns, then the spear bomb charged, they walked away with 4 models. Second was 33, against SK Custodes. Similar list than mine, slowly ate me up. Third was 13 against IG, practically tabled me T5 with Manticores, Demolisher TCs, melta scions, and a punisher TC. Even though not a lot of terrain, and built up a sizeable lead, I felt weak.
Based on discussing my experiences with others, there are some things I can stand by even without knowing the Nids' effect:
1.We are squishy without our strats, bikes especially, and even shield guards seem to underperform in this area.
2. Bikes are borderline unusable. Small units are not favored, as nothing coerces us into MSU, also 3 bikes don't hit hard, and large units are just point sinks waiting for a good angle from AT. Regardless, we have no good alternative for AT, but without some significant defence, they can only contribute if we go first, or have a big ass obscuring terrain.
3. Spear guardians hit well below their weight. Their sweet spot seems non-terminator elite units, not a lot of that running around.
4. Sag shooting with EI is still good, but AoC messed with that as well. Useful but not in numbers.
Generally I feel like mech is the way to go, but even that will be weaker than what it was in late 8th. Other than mech/dread spam, we can wait for our Army of Renown, or look at souping in a knight if it won't break katahs (the Chaos ones don't break armies, we know that so far). As of now, we are squishy for our points, and we have underperforming options for specific purposes (AT is weak, long range harassment is weak, force projection in general is very much impeded).
But I had a feeling that would happen... I play 2 armies. Admech and Custodes. It happened to Admech (down to mid 40s) so I kinda feared it would just happen AGAIN.
That they choose a THAT heavy handed approach is kinda stunning...
With 8th ed levels of survivability in a 9th ed level damage creep I dont see custodes going above 45% anymore...
I'll have a game tomorrow against new nids (without dataslate cause we want to gauge the power of the nid codex without 2 new things in the mix) and I already feel like I'm fighting uphill. With the slate... bloodbath.
Holy heck, I haven't kept up with 40k news for about a week then a buddy sends me the latest balance data slate.
Auspice is once per game instead of a CP increase. Reminds me of that Goonhammer overreaction from earlier.
Bikes can no longer use AGA? I'm not too familiar with SM rules anymore but can their bikers use Transhuman?
Also disappointed that Power Armor gets Armor of Contempt but Auric Armor does not, I rarely if ever get to use the 2+ even with Sword & Board since anti-tank is cheap and available for most armies.
Each time an attack is made against this model, your opponent cannot re-roll the hit roll, cannot re-roll the wound roll and cannot re-roll the damage roll.
Also if you kill some models it gets transhuman against hit rolls like our Blade Champion.
These are both permanent. The no re-rolls from the outset, the transhuman once it hits the required kill count.
It's just not feasible with the nerfs. Even without the nerfs AND armour of contempt I ended 85/51.
Custodes dont have the volume of fire to kill chaff, especially if it has mini-transnid and neither the volume nor damage to kill big monsters that get invuls on demand.
You get outplayed on every phase. Zoantrhopes easily push D6+3MW each, a charging Carnifex does the same. Then you get outshot by freakin' gants, tyrannofexes, carnifexes and then get mauled in melee all the while you have to deal with more obsec bodies than your entire army has shots - that regenerate every turn.
No, its not feasible.
Strange that ATVs can use Transhuman but our Bikes can't. I was hoping they'd split the middle and make it 1CP for Infantry and 2CP for Bikers instead of outright removing it.
As for Leviathan I've had similar experiences. Brain bugs dish out lots of Mortals and transhuman everywhere is difficult to deal with, but still preferable to -1D.
i mean, we can tailor our lists to beat nids, but that doesnt help in a competitive environment.
30 witchseekers, and a relic flamer centura shuts down the psychic heavy nid lists pretty hard, but its just not very useful into much else. Especially with AoC in game making them useless into the TSons and Grey knights.
Each time an attack is made against this model, your opponent cannot re-roll the hit roll, cannot re-roll the wound roll and cannot re-roll the damage roll.
Also if you kill some models it gets transhuman against hit rolls like our Blade Champion.
These are both permanent. The no re-rolls from the outset, the transhuman once it hits the required kill count.
Eihnlazer wrote: i mean, we can tailor our lists to beat nids, but that doesnt help in a competitive environment.
30 witchseekers, and a relic flamer centura shuts down the psychic heavy nid lists pretty hard, but its just not very useful into much else. Especially with AoC in game making them useless into the TSons and Grey knights.
the extra MW from the maleceptor are not ignored by sisters and they not need LOS.
fun fact a normal CSM marine has the same number of attacks as a custodes.
I'm really glad this is happening, because I always called for a cost increase for the shut down of re-rolls, and points increases for several units, and everyone lost their collective minds. "That will kill us!!!" "It's not possible they would nerf that, it'd be too much!"
Well, now look. Would you rather pay 2-3CP per shut down, and 200 points for Trajann/ 95 points for bikes, or this?
Eihnlazer wrote: i mean, we can tailor our lists to beat nids, but that doesnt help in a competitive environment.
30 witchseekers, and a relic flamer centura shuts down the psychic heavy nid lists pretty hard, but its just not very useful into much else. Especially with AoC in game making them useless into the TSons and Grey knights.
the extra MW from the maleceptor are not ignored by sisters and they not need LOS.
fun fact a normal CSM marine has the same number of attacks as a custodes.
Oh i know about not being immune to the extra mortals, but they do have to get a 7+ on the cast to do those, and with a -3 thats not always gonna happen. Just having that -3 to cast will considerably blunt the mortal wound output on those things.
At best, one tervigon will have +1 to cast and 3d6 drop one. With the -3 going off, the fully buffed one might get both of his extras off, but the other 2 will likely not. Stopping 12 mortals and being immune to 3 smites + psychic scream for a turn is a pretty big blunt to their offence, and gives you time to strike back.
Grimskul wrote: It's the GW pendulum as usual. Release a codex that has an extreme skew list that tourney players will abuse and have absurd win rates, wait a few months before slamming it with heavy handed nerfs and releasing another codex with the same problems. Rinse and repeat.
I feel bad for Custodes players since it just forces a lot of you guys back to overly relying on FW units to compensate for the changes.
Forgeworld models aren't the answer.
If custodes have any play it is in shield guard and that's about it. Maybe sags.
I don't think any army in the game has ever been nerfed as hard in one balance pass as custodes just were. It usually takes like 3 to punt someone down this hard.
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm really glad this is happening, because I always called for a cost increase for the shut down of re-rolls, and points increases for several units, and everyone lost their collective minds. "That will kill us!!!" "It's not possible they would nerf that, it'd be too much!"
Well, now look. Would you rather pay 2-3CP per shut down, and 200 points for Trajann/ 95 points for bikes, or this?
200 points for trajan and 95 for bikes. Without a second thought.
Had the opportunity to try out a mecha EI battalion last night against melta sisters (5 multimelta immolators, shitton of melta girls and repentia). Brought BC, Trajann, Prosecutors, 3 Sags, 3 Shields, 2 solo Allarus, 2 Achillus, 1 Galatus, 2 Telemon, 1 Caladius. Played recover the relics.
I went first, flung one achilles forward, then made the charge with it fortunately. Others moved up, rearguard put up banners with conservai. Long story short he conceded at the end of his 2nd turn fight phase when I lost 1 Achillus, 1 Galatus, and 1 Allarus didn't even come down yet. That one big push was too much for him, and the whole repentia countercharge wave was neutered with the fight first trait. Meltas should've been harsher on me, but wouldn't have made much of a difference.
EC might have been nicer if he brought no repentia. The whole idea of "I can't use my classic strats" opened up the book for a constant use of tanglefoot, slayers etc.
I'll probably get steamrolled in my next RTT next month, but this was a nice experience.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So you dominated a list almost tailor made to defeat your list. By the second turn.
Yes, we are irreparably broken! Gnash the teeth! Bring on the moaning and wailing! The end times are here!
I'm not sure what's tailor made here. Melta is a middle choice against Custodes cause low volume and 4++ is gonna 4++.
If you want a counter anecdote, I took a heavy Infantry Emperor's Chosen list into a match again Thousand Sons. 7 Guardians killed about 3 Scarab Occult terminators in melee. I was dealt 11-15 MW every turn even through the 4+++ and lost most of my army to it.
Without Bikes (which were way too squishy to take) I couldn't keep up with the constant teleporting and repositioning. Opponent conceded the center, played the corners and just kited the infantry to oblivion with jump-shoot-psychic. Since even AP-3 still let terminators in cover still make 3+ saves, my retaliatory fire wasn't as great.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So you dominated a list almost tailor made to defeat your list. By the second turn.
Yes, we are irreparably broken! Gnash the teeth! Bring on the moaning and wailing! The end times are here!
I'm not sure what's tailor made here. Melta is a middle choice against Custodes cause low volume and 4++ is gonna 4++.
If you want a counter anecdote, I took a heavy Infantry Emperor's Chosen list into a match again Thousand Sons. 7 Guardians killed about 3 Scarab Occult terminators in melee. I was dealt 11-15 MW every turn even through the 4+++ and lost most of my army to it.
Without Bikes (which were way too squishy to take) I couldn't keep up with the constant teleporting and repositioning. Opponent conceded the center, played the corners and just kited the infantry to oblivion with jump-shoot-psychic. Since even AP-3 still let terminators in cover still make 3+ saves, my retaliatory fire wasn't as great.
Mission was Conversion.
Yeah, I'm really down on bikes rn, so if you don't have Into The Darkness in EC, there really isn't any way to project force further away than 9"+charge range with the Contemptors. Feels bad, a jumpy Eldar list probably would've kicked my ass with absolutely rampaging through my backfield.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: An all Melta Sisters list should be a perfect match against an all elite ultra heavy mech list like ours. I would chalk this up to bad opponent.
Okay, new Contemptor model has been shown with all options. Let's just assume we get all the new options in a FAQ (and don't lose the Assault cannon, which doesn't seem to be an option anymore). What are we most excited for? Twin Lascannon and plasma on the fist would make for a decent ranged anti-tank unit, something we currently lack. If you had points left over, simply tacking on a Havok launcher to a dread wouldn't be horrible.
cuda1179 wrote: Okay, new Contemptor model has been shown with all options. Let's just assume we get all the new options in a FAQ (and don't lose the Assault cannon, which doesn't seem to be an option anymore). What are we most excited for? Twin Lascannon and plasma on the fist would make for a decent ranged anti-tank unit, something we currently lack. If you had points left over, simply tacking on a Havok launcher to a dread wouldn't be horrible.
Would be cool if we got new options on the basic ugly Contemptor. But I'm still not sure why I'd bring one over an Achillus or Galatus.
cuda1179 wrote: Okay, new Contemptor model has been shown with all options. Let's just assume we get all the new options in a FAQ (and don't lose the Assault cannon, which doesn't seem to be an option anymore). What are we most excited for? Twin Lascannon and plasma on the fist would make for a decent ranged anti-tank unit, something we currently lack. If you had points left over, simply tacking on a Havok launcher to a dread wouldn't be horrible.
Unfortunately I just don't see us getting the new options :(
The standard contemptor aqnd Landraider are only in our codex because they were in the original launch box back in the day as filler. They don't fit with the rest of the line and no doubt cause GW headaches as they have to try and rules match them with the same units in other codexs which they are trying to get away from. I think there is more chance that they will send our versions to legends than add more options for them in.
That said if we did get an option update I only really see the launcher and a couple of the fist guns as useful upgrades - the multimelta is cheaper and better than a twin lascannon and antitank is the thing that I want.
Yeah, not gonna lie. Custodes never get the variant SM toys. It doesn't matter, it's still no where near as good as what we currently do have in any event. Nothing in the heavy mecha class outperforms the Telly. It wouldn't fix us in any event to give us a new mech, that doesn't get core, or play with our special rules.
Who'd have thought the most sneeringly elite/contemptuous demi-gods, who literally have contempt for humanity, or mortals, as they call them, would have armor of Contempt?
I'm about 85% sure we will NOT get updated rules for the new Contemptor, at least not until we get a new codex 4 years from now. The other 15% of me remains hopeful though.
Well, yes. However the old plastic Contemptor was also a 30k Contemptor, but also a 40k Contemptor. Let's just say the kit isn't exactly game-locked at the moment.
Guessing that the model will be locked in it's box set for the next few months/years anyway, which given that it's around 2k total points, I'm gonna say will be in the 400-600 USD range.
So how have you all been faring now since the balance dataslate has been out for a bit? I got some games in and I personally very much feel that we are less durable now. Lists that focus on dreadnoughts to do the heavy lifting seem to work fine for me at least. I am very much enjoying learning more into Shadowkeepers, but I think Emperors Chosen won't go away because of the heavy mortal wound output nowadays.
Also, am I crazy or were wardens one of the most affected units by the bodyguard change? Not only did they lose their primary purpose, but the only benefit of having them now over other infantry in protecting a character is if you have exactly one warden left. Since all our guys count as two models for the purposes of look out sir. That's....really dumb.
Overall I think internal balance of the codex took the biggest hit with the dataslate.
Edit: also GW releasing a FW Compendium FAQ and not buffing Agamatus bikes to 5W or the Adrasite Spears to S7 is beyond hilarious. At least the Telemon is not the most cowardly Custodes unit anymore.
Well lets just say I had one game with the data slate.
Against tyranids. Far from optimal
I ended up getting tabled T2.
So we then took a second game where not only did we undo the dataslate nerfs, but also gave Custodes AoC.
I ended up loosing something like 85:51.
I dont feel Custodes are anywhere near able to prevail in this meta now. We've got nothing going for us, gameplay wise.
By all metrics, yes, we took a nerf from 80% WR to just over 50%.
That being said, Nids are extremely hot right now, and equally bad for you that they are always going to be our flat out WORST match up. We can't compete with Hordes well, at all. That and their Psyker stuff is off the charts bonkers. They have one unit that can drop our Ares with just MWs. That's bonkers.
Yeah, I would say given that they are the scissors to our paper, and they are currently top of the Meta, I think you could give us S10 spears and we'd still eat fat juicy turds.
I'd be interested to see how we do against chaos knights now.
flat 3 damage everywhere, a -1damage strat (making their knight unkillable for us), and now we cant even steal points from them with our terminators and venetari.
flat 3 damage everywhere, a -1damage strat (making their knight unkillable for us), and now we cant even steal points from them with our terminators and venetari.
An achillus with Trajann nearby should rough up a knight real good though, shouldn't it? I don't think the achillus can kill a big knight in one combat, but it should punch above it's weight class against them.
yeah, an achilles can do work on a knight, and we can take 3, but only 1 or 2 will make it into combat and kill one knight. The other 2 knights and/or armigers will kill the other 2 achilles without much trouble the following turn.
after a few games post slate I simply dont understand how we did not get AoC.
I hate the obsec nerf, I hate that bikes can't use transhuman now, but ok, GW did that and I will live with that.
But instead of leaving this beautiful, iconic army totally in the dust why oh why didn't they just give os armor of contempt like every other power armor army got?
2+ with that rule would be super tough vs small arms (which we DEFINETLY should be) but would still meld to all the big guns in the meta and be overall horribly weaker than we were before the slate.
Because if there is literally one thing Custodes don't need, it's better armor saves. I mean, do we really need a 1+? After they literally just nerfed us for being too hard to kill?
We aren't getting armor of contempt. Rage at the lore and thematic gods, I'm still struggling to understand how a Iron Fist Gen 1 Marine fires a bolter better than a Demi-god in Ceramite, that's more practiced in war than the IF's whole chapter combined.
Taking away ObSec on all the units except troops was totally unnecessary, as most of them are now pretty redundant, especially Wardens. The other thing that was unnecessary was limiting the strats to infantry-only. Making Emperor's Auspice a once-per-game was already a huge nerf; there was no need to double down on it. Still, it seems that life, uh, found a way, as there seems to be a Dread-heavy list that has some decent play making the rounds and occasionally putting in good finishes.
Heh, wasn't it the case that BEFORE the 9th codex we still had some success with dread-heavy lists? It would be pretty funny (and sad) if we basically went:
1) pre-codex: Only competitive with dread heavy
2) codex launch: Competitive with all kinds of things!
3) codex nerf: Only competitive with dread heavy... but now with a new codex!
Anyone else feel like GW basically just took us for the proverbial ride?
Yeah, unless we see a complete redesign of 40k in 9th, I guess we just keep hovering around 50-60% WR. Is that really so bad? My IG are never going to get the fixes they need with 9th, and my scions are STILL unplayable. My Baneblades will continue to be bulky things for my cat to knock onto the floor. 50-60% ain't that bad. We could be sub 40s.
I'm basically giving up on 9th. Maybe in 10th I'll start up that Blood Angels all Primaris force I've been dying to start for ever. They should be relatively easy to paint.
Yeah, I've been mostly experimenting with Onepage Rules right now myself. Modern 40k has gotten to the point where it seems like more work than fun... I still love the setting, and have probably thousands of dollars of stuff... but right now at least Onepage Rules just seems to provide a better more consistent experience :-(
I'll be honest, my love of toy soldiers got me into this, but my painting skills suck, so I might just go back to Reaper minis for DnD model painting. I don't really play 40k that much, and refuse to buy anymore books.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Because if there is literally one thing Custodes don't need, it's better armor saves. I mean, do we really need a 1+? After they literally just nerfed us for being too hard to kill?
We aren't getting armor of contempt. Rage at the lore and thematic gods, I'm still struggling to understand how a Iron Fist Gen 1 Marine fires a bolter better than a Demi-god in Ceramite, that's more practiced in war than the IF's whole chapter combined.
yeah, its really hard for me to swallow. At the end of the day I feel GW integrates the lore rather well, but this just feels so wierd. Its a big thing for me. Custodes somehow represents the old school, behind the scenes, underlying, core power of the Imperium. The need to feel tough as nails. they just dont now.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Because if there is literally one thing Custodes don't need, it's better armor saves. I mean, do we really need a 1+? After they literally just nerfed us for being too hard to kill?
We aren't getting armor of contempt. Rage at the lore and thematic gods, I'm still struggling to understand how a Iron Fist Gen 1 Marine fires a bolter better than a Demi-god in Ceramite, that's more practiced in war than the IF's whole chapter combined.
yeah, its really hard for me to swallow. At the end of the day I feel GW integrates the lore rather well, but this just feels so wierd. Its a big thing for me. Custodes somehow represents the old school, behind the scenes, underlying, core power of the Imperium. The need to feel tough as nails. they just dont now.
The design paradigm for the 9th es custodes codex was wrong in one crucial point: Custodes players would have much more preferred to have more expensive, but more powerful models. 5W, 5A terminators are not a problem when priced accordingly and there would be a more appropriate distinction between custodes and marines for example, especially considering armor or contempt.
People often say you can't reflect the lore in the game and they are partly right. But for a game like 40k it's of paramount importance to still try to incorporate that aspect when designing rules and do the lore justice. The different armies and units within that armies have to feel and play different, otherwise you could just go and play checkers or chess. If it's just balance that's the important aspect whats wrong with giving the basic lasgun dmg3 if priced accordingly? Nothing wrong with that from a balance standpoint, but it also massively breaks the immersion. If that loss of immersion is drastic enough, people start losing interest pretty quickly so GW actually needs to be careful here in the long term.
Back to custodes tactics though: anyone already tried souping in a freeblade? I'm not sure of bringing a big knight will have some opportunity cost, but I haven't tired it yet.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Because if there is literally one thing Custodes don't need, it's better armor saves. I mean, do we really need a 1+? After they literally just nerfed us for being too hard to kill?
We aren't getting armor of contempt. Rage at the lore and thematic gods, I'm still struggling to understand how a Iron Fist Gen 1 Marine fires a bolter better than a Demi-god in Ceramite, that's more practiced in war than the IF's whole chapter combined.
yeah, its really hard for me to swallow. At the end of the day I feel GW integrates the lore rather well, but this just feels so wierd. Its a big thing for me. Custodes somehow represents the old school, behind the scenes, underlying, core power of the Imperium. The need to feel tough as nails. they just dont now.
The design paradigm for the 9th es custodes codex was wrong in one crucial point: Custodes players would have much more preferred to have more expensive, but more powerful models. 5W, 5A terminators are not a problem when priced accordingly and there would be a more appropriate distinction between custodes and marines for example, especially considering armor or contempt.
People often say you can't reflect the lore in the game and they are partly right. But for a game like 40k it's of paramount importance to still try to incorporate that aspect when designing rules and do the lore justice. The different armies and units within that armies have to feel and play different, otherwise you could just go and play checkers or chess. If it's just balance that's the important aspect whats wrong with giving the basic lasgun dmg3 if priced accordingly? Nothing wrong with that from a balance standpoint, but it also massively breaks the immersion. If that loss of immersion is drastic enough, people start losing interest pretty quickly so GW actually needs to be careful here in the long term.
Back to custodes tactics though: anyone already tried souping in a freeblade? I'm not sure of bringing a big knight will have some opportunity cost, but I haven't tired it yet.
So my general feeling on knights is that until recently, there was no value in it, seeing as how our Telemons were basically better as what we needed them to do. They don't eat up slots, CP, or need a ton of support.
That being said, now that only infantry have obsec, I might take another look at a detachment of Amigers as heavy AT shooters. Then again, our Telemons already do that.I would rather go the opposite way, build a knight list and soup in some Custodes Terminators.
The design paradigm for the 9th es custodes codex was wrong in one crucial point: Custodes players would have much more preferred to have more expensive, but more powerful models. 5W, 5A terminators are not a problem when priced accordingly and there would be a more appropriate distinction between custodes and marines for example, especially considering armor or contempt.
People often say you can't reflect the lore in the game and they are partly right. But for a game like 40k it's of paramount importance to still try to incorporate that aspect when designing rules and do the lore justice. The different armies and units within that armies have to feel and play different, otherwise you could just go and play checkers or chess. If it's just balance that's the important aspect whats wrong with giving the basic lasgun dmg3 if priced accordingly? Nothing wrong with that from a balance standpoint, but it also massively breaks the immersion. If that loss of immersion is drastic enough, people start losing interest pretty quickly so GW actually needs to be careful here in the long term.
I think the reason is simple: they ran out of design space. This game revolves around D6. Throws are made with D6, statlines are effectively constrained by D6 (only W and Ld are signficantly different), so a meaningful, lore-friendly separation is only possible if the designers have REALLY tight constraints. This means any encroachment in others' space is fatal. In ye olde times, things were pretty clear in the toughness front for example. Humans and equivalent xenos are at S3T3, superhumans and equivalent xenos are S4T4, TEQ and Custodes S5T5, light vehicles T6, vehicles and big dudes, daemons T7, ass slappers T8. Modifiers were present, but not at a large scale. But T5W3 gravis crept into Custodes space. They were different units still, but the changing meta (e.g. anti-gravis meta) had a lot of collateral damage, unintended, on units which were crept upon. This is just a small example, add to this the inflation of AP (remember in 8th when necrons got a shitton of AP1 and AP2 which signalled an unrivaled ability to vaporize anything due to gauss guns?), and the cascading effects of minor changes (e.g. AoC hurt orks more than anyone, as the "you'll get T5 and AP1 in exchange for the old mob rule and green tide" agreement wasn't held up by GW).
I think there either needs to be a reset of stats, or an expansion into D10 scale (not necessarily the rolls, but the space). GW designers are obviously reactive, which is just the worst possible example. I understand designing this game is hard, especially if you want some identity for the armies, but the "B kills A, so C needs to be able to kill B" mindset inflates the rules. I would definitely include some maths in the point and buff calculations if I were them, at least for baselines.
As for the new Custodes strategy: oops all dreads.
Anyone already played against the new Chaos Knights? I had a game against them recently and I put an ureasonable amount of points into trying to kill the new Abominant and still couldn't bring it down (I rolled badly though).
Well, with the released stat line of the new "possessed" we are looking at S5T5, 3W, 5 Attacks base, S:U, AP2 D1. I can see them bringing the cost from 20 up to 30ish, possibly 40, and making the weapons S:U+D3 and flat 2 damage. Then the only thing left to do is wonder if they will retain the 5-20 model unit size?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Well, with the released stat line of the new "possessed" we are looking at S5T5, 3W, 5 Attacks base, S:U, AP2 D1. I can see them bringing the cost from 20 up to 30ish, possibly 40, and making the weapons S:U+D3 and flat 2 damage. Then the only thing left to do is wonder if they will retain the 5-20 model unit size?
It'll be 5-10. GW stopped letting CSM take 20 man squads for stuff.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also their attacks are D2, not D1
A friend of mine and I got into a rather intense debate. I think Custodes have let the game pass them by, he thinks they are still leagues above the rest. At the very least give Custodes AoC.
cuda1179 wrote: A friend of mine and I got into a rather intense debate. I think Custodes have let the game pass them by, he thinks they are still leagues above the rest. At the very least give Custodes AoC.
Leagues above the rest is a stretch. We are not weak as guard or some space marine chapters are weak.
I've said this before and I won't get tired of saying it, the problem is how we play. Custodes don't feel terribly elite anymore. GW should have upped our cost and given all our Infantry +1W and +1A this way there would be a more discernable difference between us and marines.
The second issue is that the dataslate messed up the internal balance of a faction with a very small pool of datasheets. There is absolutely no reason to bring Wardens and you won't see many terminators except for the lone Allarus popping up here and there as an action monkey.
We are still very playable with decent results, but that does not mean the faction is enjoyable to play. And yes, I know other factions have it worse than us like the poor Guard, but that doesn't render any criticism of GWs heavy handed approach towards us invalid.
When they killed Bikes they killed most of the fun about Custodes. Then they killed Core mechanics for Dreads, and most of the Custodes top lists went away.
My favorite part about 9th was when GW looked at Custodes, and decided what it needed was a Stance/Phase system, and a HQ model that is actually bad at it's job and never worth the investment in competitive play.
I'd love to hear the argument that pitch made. I've got an idea for a new Custodes unit! It's a guy with a really big sword, who can hit things, REALLY hard. But he's an HQ, so you can never take more than 3 of him, and really only 2 because who would ever not take Trajann?
How does he do against T8 stuff? Oh he sucks. How does he do against high model counts with multi-wound profiles? He sucks. How does he do against hordes of weak chaff? He sucks. So he's basically a regular Shield Captain with a special sword? Yeah but we can put him in a special "exclusive" box for 6 months, and charge way more than he's worth.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: When they killed Bikes they killed most of the fun about Custodes. Then they killed Core mechanics for Dreads, and most of the Custodes top lists went away.
My favorite part about 9th was when GW looked at Custodes, and decided what it needed was a Stance/Phase system, and a HQ model that is actually bad at it's job and never worth the investment in competitive play.
I'd love to hear the argument that pitch made. I've got an idea for a new Custodes unit! It's a guy with a really big sword, who can hit things, REALLY hard. But he's an HQ, so you can never take more than 3 of him, and really only 2 because who would ever not take Trajann?
How does he do against T8 stuff? Oh he sucks. How does he do against high model counts with multi-wound profiles? He sucks. How does he do against hordes of weak chaff? He sucks. So he's basically a regular Shield Captain with a special sword? Yeah but we can put him in a special "exclusive" box for 6 months, and charge way more than he's worth.
DEAL.
To be fair the damage output of a fully kitted blade champion is nothing to be laughed at. His main problem is that he is rather slow, easy to avoid and like you said, Trajann is an auto take and the bike captain offers the mobility the blade champion lacks. Point is he is not bad but other HQ slots are just better. You I am critical of the new codex in specific aspects, but our HQs are still absolutely stellar.
EviscerationPlague wrote: I also don't think it's THAT hard to get the Champ into melee but I'm biased because Dread Host rerolls are best.
Again, my point is that he is in fact not bad I like to play him myself too, especially in shadowkeepers, but competitively he is outshone by Trajann and the Bike cap.
We do not lack good HQ options. Consider Valerian: good melee, perma transhuman and free re-rolls. Not a bad statline, good rules and no one ever plays him, especially competitively. Why? Because Trajann and the bike captain are way better.
The problem is internal balance and general codex design. Underlining the low model count elite status instead of extra tricks like karate would have been the way to go imo. We're still at least playable.
There is STILL no justifiable reason that Trajann is at his current cost. He needs to be more than a Bike Captain, like 180 min. The BC should be 100, since he's lacking mobility, and a clear purpose, and shooting. He should be a Heavy Weapons choice for Emperors sake. Or Elite, if we weren't already the most Elite Heavy force in the game.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: There is STILL no justifiable reason that Trajann is at his current cost. He needs to be more than a Bike Captain, like 180 min. The BC should be 100, since he's lacking mobility, and a clear purpose, and shooting. He should be a Heavy Weapons choice for Emperors sake. Or Elite, if we weren't already the most Elite Heavy force in the game.
Yes, and Trajann is the prime candidate to recieve a points increase in the next chapter approved. Bladechamp as heavy support makes no sense and like you said, the elite slot is way too crowded as it is. If anything Vigilators should be the ones to recieve a change there and become a fast attack slot (in custodes armies, in pure sisters armies the elite slot is fine), since they simply can not compete with the other options.
The blade champ is honestly perfectly fine as he is rules wise, the 10p increase really was not necessary though. He is definitely not overpowered or overtuned and he does is designated role quite well, while also having weaknesses like being slow and not being a force multiplier. But he has amazing damage output vs characters in Shadowkeepers and actually rather good 1wound horde clearing in Dreadhost if you give him All-Seeing Annihilator and Peerless Warrior.
If a standard 5/5 2+W/BS with a base 2+4++ (Guardian) is between 40-50 points, how do you calculate the cost of the Blade Champion? Based off it's sheer capability? Then Trajan should be 300 points, and bike captains should be 260. It's silly to think that a BC should be more than 100 points. He's barely more capable than a Base Captain, or the Terminator Captain who frankly is better at every turn. He's got shooting, which the BC just doesn't, he can teleport around the field at will, hes got 5 attacks (More possible) at S8 AP2 D2. Is he as good as the BC in hyper specific scenarios? No. But the BC is overwhelmingly worse in the majority of situations.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If a standard 5/5 2+W/BS with a base 2+4++ (Guardian) is between 40-50 points, how do you calculate the cost of the Blade Champion? Based off it's sheer capability? Then Trajan should be 300 points, and bike captains should be 260. It's silly to think that a BC should be more than 100 points. He's barely more capable than a Base Captain, or the Terminator Captain who frankly is better at every turn. He's got shooting, which the BC just doesn't, he can teleport around the field at will, hes got 5 attacks (More possible) at S8 AP2 D2. Is he as good as the BC in hyper specific scenarios? No. But the BC is overwhelmingly worse in the majority of situations.
There is so much wrong here I don't even know where to start. Trajann should be more expensive and probably will be in the chapter approved, but 300p is just laughable. Saying the terminator cap is better at everything is also just not correct.....bunch of hyperbole, as usual.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If a standard 5/5 2+W/BS with a base 2+4++ (Guardian) is between 40-50 points, how do you calculate the cost of the Blade Champion? Based off it's sheer capability? Then Trajan should be 300 points, and bike captains should be 260. It's silly to think that a BC should be more than 100 points. He's barely more capable than a Base Captain, or the Terminator Captain who frankly is better at every turn. He's got shooting, which the BC just doesn't, he can teleport around the field at will, hes got 5 attacks (More possible) at S8 AP2 D2. Is he as good as the BC in hyper specific scenarios? No. But the BC is overwhelmingly worse in the majority of situations.
There is so much wrong here I don't even know where to start. Trajann should be more expensive and probably will be in the chapter approved, but 300p is just laughable. Saying the terminator cap is better at everything is also just not correct.....bunch of hyperbole, as usual.
If it's so easy, please demonstrate the truth. Show me what situations a BC outperforms a Terminator Captain? Or maybe lay off the personal attacks and address the topic. If a Guardian is worth 40-50 points for it's statline, I would evaluate all other custodes units off that. They tend to make sense. Bikers are almost twice the cost. Terminators the same. What baseline would you suggest for the evaluation of Custodes units on an individual basis? I'd really be interested in your opinion. But if all you want to do is call me stupid and silly, then just put me on ignore and don't bother responding.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If a standard 5/5 2+W/BS with a base 2+4++ (Guardian) is between 40-50 points, how do you calculate the cost of the Blade Champion? Based off it's sheer capability? Then Trajan should be 300 points, and bike captains should be 260. It's silly to think that a BC should be more than 100 points. He's barely more capable than a Base Captain, or the Terminator Captain who frankly is better at every turn. He's got shooting, which the BC just doesn't, he can teleport around the field at will, hes got 5 attacks (More possible) at S8 AP2 D2. Is he as good as the BC in hyper specific scenarios? No. But the BC is overwhelmingly worse in the majority of situations.
There is so much wrong here I don't even know where to start. Trajann should be more expensive and probably will be in the chapter approved, but 300p is just laughable. Saying the terminator cap is better at everything is also just not correct.....bunch of hyperbole, as usual.
If it's so easy, please demonstrate the truth. Show me what situations a BC outperforms a Terminator Captain? Or maybe lay off the personal attacks and address the topic. If a Guardian is worth 40-50 points for it's statline, I would evaluate all other custodes units off that. They tend to make sense. Bikers are almost twice the cost. Terminators the same. What baseline would you suggest for the evaluation of Custodes units on an individual basis? I'd really be interested in your opinion. But if all you want to do is call me stupid and silly, then just put me on ignore and don't bother responding.
Oh geez...
Blade Champ Vs a Space Marine Character with 4+ invuln....does about 2 unsaved wounds for 6 damage. In Shadowkeepers with Lockwarden it's about 4 unsaved wounds at 12dmg.
Terminator Captain with Axe vs Space Marine Character with 4+ invuln...does about 2 unsaved wounds totaling 4 damage. In Shadowkeepers with Lockwarden it's again about 4 damage due to armor of contempt.
Terminator Captain with Spear vs Space Marine Character with 4+ invuln...does about 1,6 unsaved wound for 2-4 damage. In Shadowkeepers with Lockwarden it's about 2 unsaved wounds for 4 dmg.
Dread Host Terminator Captain with Admonimortis vs Space Marine Character with 4+ invuln....does about 2 unsaved wounds for 6 damage.
So a Lockwarden Blade Champ beats the Terminator Captain regardless of configuration and a Termi Captain with Admonimortis does about the same damage, but only if the Blade Champ is not Shadowkeepers.
Blade Champ vs 20 Hormagaunts.....kills 5,5 with the hurricanis profile, 4,1 with the other profiles. In Dreadhost with All-Seeing Annihilator and Peerless Warrior he kills about 9, in Dacatarai stance for +1A he kills about 11.
Terminator Captain vs 20 Hormagaunts....with Axe and Spear he kills 4. In Dreadhost with All-Seeing Annihilator and Peerless Warrior he kills about 6 with both spear and axe.
Blade Champ vs a T7 Vehicle with 3+ save....the Behemor profile does about 4 unsaved wounds for 8 damage, against a space marine dreadnaught with AoC and -1 dmg it's 3 dmg Terminator Captain vs a T7 vehicle with 3+ save.....the axe does about 2 unsaved wounds for 4 damage, the Spear also does 2 unsaved wound for 4 damage, against a space marine dreadnought with AoC and -1 dmg it's only about 1 damage for both the spear and the axe. With Slayer of Nightmares for +1 to wound he does 2 damage with the axe against a dreadnought with -1 dmg and AoC and 6 dmg against a generic T7 vehicle with a 3+ save.
The Blade Champ wins all three times. He is better against charactes, better against clearing chaff, even better against vehicles. Even against 2 wound space marines the Blade Champ does better now because of AoC. So yeah, your claim that the terminator cap is better in every step is complete bogus even when you factor in that the blade champ has no shooting ability.
Even by your metric pushing Trajann to 300p is laughable. And lastly: I mostly ignore your posts, but sometimes the nonsense is just too unbearable not to respond.
Blade champ is gonna do more damage since thats all he does. His buff (+2 to charge if he's already in combat) has very few applications where it helps.
Termy captain is much more utilitarian, being able to shoot, buff units, deep strike, and more relic options.
Its all gonna come down to what your army needs.
Do you need a beatstick to hold the midfield or countercharge? Blade champ is your man.
Do you need someone who can buff units, and drop into the backfield? Termy captain.
Eihnlazer wrote: Blade champ is gonna do more damage since thats all he does. His buff (+2 to charge if he's already in combat) has very few applications where it helps.
Termy captain is much more utilitarian, being able to shoot, buff units, deep strike, and more relic options.
Its all gonna come down to what your army needs.
Do you need a beatstick to hold the midfield or countercharge? Blade champ is your man.
Do you need someone who can buff units, and drop into the backfield? Termy captain.
All true, I just contested the assumption that the terminator captain is "better at every turn". I would even argue that he is way worse now generally since he has lost a lot of utility due to the lack of obsec after the dataslate. So the Praetorian Plate/Impregnable Mind combo, that saw at least some play early on, is not really viable anymore. The best use for him is probably in Dreadhost with the Admonimortis relic, providing flat dmg3 in melee.
Yeah, the new Nocturn stuff is a real kick below the belt. I honestly wonder why GW is forcing 40k to be AoS. They don't have to be the same. The two mix like acid and water. Just stop.
Does Nocturn become standard play now, or can you just pre-game state you're playing old style, with full starting? Is Nocturn Tournament only is what I mean.
I think GW has way way overdone strats and welcome them being reined in. If I had my way, I’d nuke theee quarters of strats in the game entirely. Or copy the new reaction system from HH
stratigo wrote: I think GW has way way overdone strats and welcome them being reined in. If I had my way, I’d nuke theee quarters of strats in the game entirely. Or copy the new reaction system from HH
The change is good, Just hurts custodes.
Just copy the entire heresy system to 40k, it's way better anyway. As for the CP change, I'm curious if you are going to have to pay for Trajann's traits as well....because it would suck either way: if you have to pay for his two traits it hurts and if you don't have to pay it skews internal balance even further.
Trajanns trait isn't his most useful thing, it's his Moment Shackle. His abilities are bonkers. Plus he can wreck most things in the game without even trying hard. I would not be surprised to see them make is moment shackle something you have to pay for.
Moment shackle used to be pretty impressive, but has since been overshadowed by alot of other abilities (that are useable multiple times instead of just once). New abbadon puts trajann to shame for instance.
On another note, we do gain improved secondaries in the new GT packet. Both Auric mortalis and our (never used) grind are being buffed a bit. Stand vigil isnt being buffed, but with stranglehold being removed it is a more likely pick.
Eihnlazer wrote: Moment shackle used to be pretty impressive, but has since been overshadowed by alot of other abilities (that are useable multiple times instead of just once). New abbadon puts trajann to shame for instance.
On another note, we do gain improved secondaries in the new GT packet. Both Auric mortalis and our (never used) grind are being buffed a bit. Stand vigil isnt being buffed, but with stranglehold being removed it is a more likely pick.
Do we already have confirmation on whether special characters have to pay CP for their warlord traits? And if they do, does Trajann have to pay 2cp for his two traits? Is one of them free?
We shouldn't compare Trajann to Abbafail. Abby is 300 points, and is basically The Chaotic version of Bobby G. He should be a LoW, but GW doesn't want to piss off their Chaos players. Also, even by the Fluff, I doubt very much if Trajann would be a match for the scion of all four Chaos Gods. Trajann is good at what he does for 160 points. Hilariously, he kept his Cost. Just be happy that he's what he is, and doesn't cost more.
It's funny, who wins on paper now, Abby or Morty? I think morty still takes it, but I wonder if it's possible for Abby to kill him?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: We shouldn't compare Trajann to Abbafail. Abby is 300 points, and is basically The Chaotic version of Bobby G. He should be a LoW, but GW doesn't want to piss off their Chaos players.
TheChirurgeon: With Stranglehold and To the Last out of the picture, Custodes need some secondary help if they want to stay in the game and they get some. Auric Mortalis loses its -2 VP rider for units killed by the chosen unit and now scores you 5 VP as long as that unit is destroyed outside of your deployment zone. Might of Terra loses its ANATHEMA PSYKANA rider, so you can lose sisters and still score it, making it a better option than Grind for armies that want to bring a unit of Sisters of Silence or two. Stand Vigil remains unchanged but it’s much more useful and valuable in a world without Stranglehold.
Its better than grind IF you bring a lot of sisters.
Cause they'll be picked off very easily, bringing your own required kill count up significantly.
MIght of Terra does not have that problem, but it then requires you to not lose a Custodes unit - which is ridiculous.
Its mostly useful for custodes armies that... dont play many custodes units.
So it remains inferior to Grind for almost every occasion.
Who wants to lay odds on the new Space Dwaves with "Plasma Swords" doing more damage than a Custodes axe, or having a better overall profile?
Also, can we talk about how "Plasma Swords" sounds like a mentally weak child's first idea for a weapon? Why not just call it a light saber. Because it's licensed. Holy crap this release is getting sillier and sillier.
Sure. For a simple reason - power creep. New faction. I really didnt like 7th ed, but 9th is really taking the cake as the "worst edition" now.
GW naming has always been... a bit... uncreative.
Does it end with "or"? It's a marine.
Personally I'm surprised they didnt call it "forge weapons" or "ancestral blade" or something in the line of "wolfy mc wolfface from planet wolffang" or "bloody Hamoglove from Planet Blood Chalice"
Ok, so Warzone Nephilim: considering the standard Custodes list with Trajann, a Bike Captain with relic and two warlord traits, plus one dreadnought with eternal penitent seems reasonable.
That would leave us with...what? Two CP at the start of the game?
Seems like we have to be even more careful when to deploy stratagems. Not sure I'm on board with that change especially for Custodes.
Edit: skews internal balance even further, right? No matter what Trajann is going to cost after the points update, not taking him is not going to be an option it seems.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I think it's 547, but still. That's two Telemons. Kinda odd that the first thing I've seen that can 1 round Morty is on Morty's team.
How does it one-round Mortarion?
Its sweep profile wounds on a 4+ and does 1 damage to him.
Its strike profile wounds on a 2+ and does 5 damage. So, given Mortarion has 18 wounds and a 3+/4++5+++. you'd need 6 failed saves to kill him on average. That's 12 wounds, 14.4 hits, and 21.6 attacks.
Trajann up to 200 in the recent update. He's where he should be. Zero other changes. Half our faction is worthless plastic (Contemptor Dread/Land Raider) and they leave it as is. Bikes stay at the same cost. I think this was overall not great, but it's hard to say we didn't need the nerf to Trajann. Hopefully 10th will bring us salvation quickly.
We honestly made it out like bandits from the points update. Trajann to 200 is totally reasonable and both the Achillus and Galatus up by 10 is fine in my opinion.
I am very curious what the dataslate is going to bring for us tomorrow. Maybe return obsec to wardens and terminators?
Edit: @Fezzik, considering that both the Achillus and Galatus went up, our standard ugly venerable contemptor is far from being a useless hunk of plastik. They are really not bad actually. The land raider is still trash though.
I am not saying they are Grot fodder, I'm saying that given the choice, We pay a heavy price for Elite slots. I don't want to waste any Elite slots on what is essentially the weakest member of our Elite units. Surely the Terminators or the Praetors are a better use for the points? 155ppm for a unit that doesn't do the work to earn it back is better left to Wardens, or either of the other dreads. S14 ap3 d3 just doesn't cut it. I could seriously consider it if the AC was d2.
I am not saying that the ugly contemptor is suddenly better than the Achillus/Galatus, but it's as tough as the Achillus and has similar melee output as the Galatus (ugly has higher S, Galatus has more attacks) and gets a multimelta, which provides some ranged anti tank other than bikes....all for 155p. That's not bad, definitely better than being a useless hunk plastic and I'd definitely pick that over three Wardens if I had to make the choice between them
Edit: my main point being this: for folks not having access to forgeworld options, the ugly contemptor is actually a very decent substitute.
2 Illiastus Caladius + 3 MM Codex dreads give you just an incredible firebase. For 875 points in EC, you get physically big bodies on objectives, mobility through the tanks, 55 wounds on T7 chasses, half of which is non-degrading, and we also have the strat for tanks. 2+ BS, EC gives you effectively 5 rerolls, you shoot 6 MM shots, and 16 7/-3/2 across the board, plus you have 12 lastrum shots for chaff clearing, none of these are blast (good for shooting into melee), and the dread also hits similarly to the galatus (less, but bigger).
Unless they have some sort of gakky shenanigans, you will down significant chunks of an enemy force.
And half your list tied up in 1 model units, that are easily pushed aside for Core Unit points. The killer for us is that our dreads and bikes can't hold points. If our dreads and bikes had Obsec, that would be something worth looking into. Unfortunately GW hates power lists and doesn't want to see IH(ish) stompy lists anymore. It's bad for Knights. So we are the square peg being forced to play the round hole of MSU infantry based combat. Which at the very least, is accurate to Fluff for Custodes.
Thairne wrote: Its better than grind IF you bring a lot of sisters.
Cause they'll be picked off very easily, bringing your own required kill count up significantly.
MIght of Terra does not have that problem, but it then requires you to not lose a Custodes unit - which is ridiculous.
Its mostly useful for custodes armies that... dont play many custodes units.
So it remains inferior to Grind for almost every occasion.
Yes, hilariously, might of terra is insanely good with the 2k all sisters list since you get the points if you kill any enemy units.
Ahhh, on second thought, i think you have to kill the enemy's units with actual custodes for that one so nvm wont work.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: It's a shame that Sisters can't get attached to other lists like Inquisition or Assassins. I'd love to take the Sword Sisters in a BA list.
I mean you can take the Culexus for the same technical role...
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Yeah, but it doesn't have the same shooting, abilities to snipe characters, or general all around usefulness. Also it doesn't have obsec.
Well you said Sword Sisters soooooo I gotta ask: what shooting?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Yeah, but it doesn't have the same shooting, abilities to snipe characters, or general all around usefulness. Also it doesn't have obsec.
Well you said Sword Sisters soooooo I gotta ask: what shooting?
Good point. Serves me right. I submit myself to the flagellation teams. I seriously forgot I was talking in reference to the sword sisters. Wait, THEY DO HAVE A SHOOTING ATTACK. But it's the same grenade as the Culexus. Never mind. I forgot what I was talking about.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Yeah, but it doesn't have the same shooting, abilities to snipe characters, or general all around usefulness. Also it doesn't have obsec.
Well you said Sword Sisters soooooo I gotta ask: what shooting?
Good point. Serves me right. I submit myself to the flagellation teams. I seriously forgot I was talking in reference to the sword sisters. Wait, THEY DO HAVE A SHOOTING ATTACK. But it's the same grenade as the Culexus. Never mind. I forgot what I was talking about.
Also the Culexus would be infinitely more survivable, which is more useful than anything else.
i know it sounds completely silly, fezzik, but I have used 7x flamegirls in a unit to advance/shoot around the table. they are pretty fast, can delete stuff and are basically unchargeable as they put 7d6 s5ap1 shots into anything. But yeah, they melt to anything shooting.
Did Basic flamer sisters get 5/1 flamers? I thought the Centura got 5/1 but the basics just got their 4/1. I still say the basic Bolter Sisters running up can out perform them the majority of the time, as the D6 is too swingy. If they did something to flamers to actually make them worth the cost, I'd be all for it, but as it is, I could end up with 7 hits on a single round of shooting, which ain't great for their cost.
TL;DR: The standard Venerable Contemptor (from the codex) is actually looking okay nowadays. Comp builds for Custodes will likely include those and Caladius tanks (and maybe even a Pallas or two), rather than infantry and bikes. Also Trajann at his new cost is no longer an auto-take.
Did you need anyone to tell you that? Also, Custodes are not even viable as a non infantry force. We lose 90% of our special abilities, not to mention our ability to anything with ObSec, Core, or relics. Nope count me out. I'd rather run a fluffy fun list than a competetive shitheel list of bots and tanks.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Did Basic flamer sisters get 5/1 flamers? I thought the Centura got 5/1 but the basics just got their 4/1. I still say the basic Bolter Sisters running up can out perform them the majority of the time, as the D6 is too swingy. If they did something to flamers to actually make them worth the cost, I'd be all for it, but as it is, I could end up with 7 hits on a single round of shooting, which ain't great for their cost.
Well at least theyd autohit and be ap1. you cant determine it like that. A low average would be 21. But yeah i know its not a viable choice.
I mean, if we were going with some form of ultra fluffy "Convent of the Golden Ladies" as a list, I'm 100% on board. Only problem, they are a sub-sub faction. They don't even have a faction buff. Just a thing that says they can attach to Custodes without bothering them....
so im tinkering with my first nephilim stuff. sticking with EC. two routes:
trajan
bike cap
3x3 saggitarum
2x venerable dread
1 galatus
1 achillus
2x3 salvo bikes
Or
bike cap
foot cap with +3" aura
5x3 spear guard with one shield in each
2x venerable dread
2x galatus
2x achillus
Any comments?
Automatically Appended Next Post: one more thing; how does the praetorian plate work now? Does that last phrase -
"The bearer cannot perform a Heroic Intervention int he same turn in which is performs a teleport-shunt" mean, you can't fight the turn you do it?
or was that always there and simply means, you can't shunt into one combat and then heroically again if another opportunity should come up later in that charge phase? Sorry for the silly question but I dont remember the text being worded like that. Was it nerfed back with the big hit we took in spring? I dont see it in lists anymore either.
I'll be the first to say this, and I'm likely wrong: Trajann is no longer worth the points he costs, unless you are going with a 100% infantry list.
Also, Our LR is now our best AT platform, for the cost, unless you go 5x bikes with missiles. Which at that point the cost is too extreme in my opinion. If they decide to drop it to 245 (Which I don't think they will) it's our best Transport. A group of these will out perform a points equivalent numbers of bikes, according to mathhammer. Also, with Covered advance, they are extremely hard to shift. If I still played them, I would start taking these instead of Venerable Dreads.
well the bikes are way faster though. And if they get a charge, have effectively S8 attacks.
Looking at bikes exclusively for their shooting is ignoring their major threat in melee.
Butt hey still dont seem worth it, imo now. Which is sad.
I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to. The Bikes do S6 Melee on 2+, the LR does S8 melee on 6+. So it has the edge. But the LR can shoot in melee. So it's melee profile is effectively 4x S9AP3 D6, and 6x S5 ap1 D2, and a further 4x S4 AP0 d1. So thats 14 attacks at WS2+, then it does 6x S8 AP0 D1 attacks. 1 of which will maybe hit. But if the shooting phase hasn't killed what it's in melee with, then oh well. Same cost for 1 LR as 3 bikes, the bikes are FAR harder to shift though, I'll give you that. But they still die way too fast.
Also, I was entirely wrong. I thought the LR had 12" movement, it only has 10". My bad.
I was merely stating as a dedicated AT platform, the LR takes it far better than bikes do.
The bikes have S+2 -3 2 attacks and get +1 to wound if they charged, so for all intents and purposes, they have 12 S8 -3 2 attacks in melee plus 3 S8 -4 D3+3 attacks in ranged.
I've never seen attribute shooting attacks as "melee" on vehicles. Melee are additional attacks you can do compared to shooting, TWICE, whereas shooting is just a once per turn thing.
Considering your avg. T8 2+/5++ target
Bikes cause
3,38 in shooting
7,41 dmg in melee
for a total of 10,79 to said target
On the opponents turn, bikes cause
4,44 melee dmg and again in their own turn, since the LR gets two turns, they have to as well, putting them at 19,67 dmg dealt.
Land raider causes
6,31 dmg shooting
0,08 dmg in melee
for a total of 6,39 dmg to said target.
He then fights in the opponents turn, adding
0,08 dmg again.
So if the LR gets to shoot at -1 in melee, because that rule is still there, it deals
5,03 dmg in shooting
0,08 dmg in melee
for a total of 11.58 dmg.
The bikes are clearly superior. They lose a bit in the protracted combat as they lose their +1 to wound.
That was my point originally - yes, the LR is better at shooting. But you cant just ignore the melee on the bikes because you pay quite a few points for that. Bikes deal more damage if you take ALL their damage into account.
Then you have greater mobility in movement, FLY and way easier time pushing feth off an objective you want. The LR is "good" sitting at the back, shooting at things - but thats not what a LR is for. Which is why its not being used in.. ages.
I'm sorry, I can't understand what you are saying. Are you saying S7 is now equal to S8? Are you just assuming they charge and get the +1 to wound? Because I was assuming they GET charged.
Point is, I should have said Ranged AT in Codex. Because, let's be honest, if you are sending a trio of bikes up to a Knight Equivalent Target, you're in for a BAAAAD time. Also, given that most major tanks are going T9 now it seems, we have to start taking a better look at our ONLY unit in the game with T9+ shooting. Unless we go out of codex, in which case it's the Ares. Which, call me crazy, but I don't want to spend 500 points on a flying knight, with a sign that says "SHOOT ME, I'M KEY TO THE PLAN!" I'd rather go Dual Telemons.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm sorry, I can't understand what you are saying. Are you saying S7 is now equal to S8? Are you just assuming they charge and get the +1 to wound? Because I was assuming they GET charged.
Point is, I should have said Ranged AT in Codex. Because, let's be honest, if you are sending a trio of bikes up to a Knight Equivalent Target, you're in for a BAAAAD time. Also, given that most major tanks are going T9 now it seems, we have to start taking a better look at our ONLY unit in the game with T9+ shooting. Unless we go out of codex, in which case it's the Ares. Which, call me crazy, but I don't want to spend 500 points on a flying knight, with a sign that says "SHOOT ME, I'M KEY TO THE PLAN!" I'd rather go Dual Telemons.
A M14” unit with Fly can get the charge pretty easily.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm sorry, I can't understand what you are saying. Are you saying S7 is now equal to S8? Are you just assuming they charge and get the +1 to wound? Because I was assuming they GET charged.
Point is, I should have said Ranged AT in Codex. Because, let's be honest, if you are sending a trio of bikes up to a Knight Equivalent Target, you're in for a BAAAAD time. Also, given that most major tanks are going T9 now it seems, we have to start taking a better look at our ONLY unit in the game with T9+ shooting. Unless we go out of codex, in which case it's the Ares. Which, call me crazy, but I don't want to spend 500 points on a flying knight, with a sign that says "SHOOT ME, I'M KEY TO THE PLAN!" I'd rather go Dual Telemons.
I dont get whats not to understand here? Just.. do the math. Bikes outdamage a land raider, regardless the situation, because they deal damage in 2 phases whereas the land raider is a wet fart in one.
I'm not saying that S7 is equal to S8. I'm saying that S7 with +1 to wound is equal to S8. Quite an important difference.
If you manage to get your 14" move models charged, I have bad news for you But if we get the bikes charged so they do not get the +1 to wound, which is imo an unfair comparison, they deal 4,44 instead of 7.41 wounds in that phase. Which means they deal 16,7W over the course of two turns. STILL outdamaging the LR. Not counting that they can fall back and charge, which would, in a more realistic scenario, put their damage to 22,84.
Even in the worst possible circumstance, when a unit of bikes get charged, doesnt fall back and shoot/charge, is stuck in combat for 2 turns they outdamage a land raider in the same situation.
Like I really dont understand your argument here. You disregard the big damage dealer with bikes, that isnt ranged, and say the land raider is better? Ofc he's better if you do that. But thats an infair comparison.
A land raider is bad as a gun platform. Always was.
Point is, if you sent up a LR into a KEQ, you're in for a bad time. The LR will hardly do anything to the knight and get walloped in the following turn. As will bikes, but what do you expect if you send in 250 points against close to 500??
I also wouldn't say "one chaos land raider" is "most major tanks".
Like...bro. You're sounding like CadianSgtBob or Hecaton now. You're far better than that.
CSB is easily one of the smartest, but most argumentitive people on here, and Hecaton flat out hates me. So lol, that's hilarious...
I agreed with you that Bikes Out damage LRs.
I guess I am just desperately arguing to try and find some way to break up the monotony of running out the exact same units. I love Bikes btw. I tried for months to run an all bike list. It always sucked that it was basically impossible, and now even more so. I apologize if my points came off as combative or hyperbolic.
CSB is... well, I cant say what I think he is, but he's devious to say the least. Doesn't change the other attributes you give him, but yeah.. that kinda was the intent
You did? I'm sorry, I didn't catch that. And I read your reply like 3 times straight cause I didn't understand the point you were making...
But good, then that part is settled and we agree
I hear ya... like I said, the codex is in a really bad place... but there's one thing one can do, and which is what I'm doing - depending on what I play against, we just revert all the nerfs.
If I go against tyranids, we not only undo it, but give AoC to custodes as well and its STILL an uphill battle.
If I go against the more casual guard player, we don't, but in that case, custodes still punch down, even with termies, venetarii etc...
That breathes some life back into the codex, but having to houserule to that extent to even get a semi decent game is suboptimal at best.
To be honest, one of the most upsetting things about this specific faction, is that you are instantly lumped into a negative category. The "Ultra superior fanoboy with Golden Astartes Complex". I hate seeing some of the things said in the Custodes thread on Gen Discussion. I mean, I chose them because they were the least complicated to play and easiest to paint army. I had no idea I was a complete Chad for trying to play a less complicated faction.
I honestly feel like it would help custodes if were the not actually Custodes. If we were just say, the All new Primaris Army/sub faction. And give Custodes back to the fluff.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: To be honest, one of the most upsetting things about this specific faction, is that you are instantly lumped into a negative category. The "Ultra superior fanoboy with Golden Astartes Complex". I hate seeing some of the things said in the Custodes thread on Gen Discussion. I mean, I chose them because they were the least complicated to play and easiest to paint army. I had no idea I was a complete Chad for trying to play a less complicated faction.
I honestly feel like it would help custodes if were the not actually Custodes. If we were just say, the All new Primaris Army/sub faction. And give Custodes back to the fluff.
Nah, don't get rattled by these knuckleheads. Neither do Custodes have to justify their existance to some trolls, nor do most Custodes players have some superiority complex about their models or faction as a general. Wanting to play an elite faction with powerful individual models is not a sin and says absolutely nothing about you or your character and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. It's just a really bad dig used by someone desperate to save face because they were losing an argument.
It's like saying all knights players have some kind of god complex for wanting to play a super powerful robot and wanting that robot to feel....well, big and powerful ingame.
I mean, aside from two months of domination, we were far from the real Boogeymen that everyone makes us out to be. How did we become the recipients of all the hate? Surely Drukari or Harlequins, or DG were a far bigger Meta Stompers than we ever were.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I mean, aside from two months of domination, we were far from the real Boogeymen that everyone makes us out to be. How did we become the recipients of all the hate? Surely Drukari or Harlequins, or DG were a far bigger Meta Stompers than we ever were.
Honestly, who cares? Some naysayers are always going to hate on Custodes and to some extent also on Custodes players, no matter whether they are a strong book currently or not. The same is probably true for any faction in the game, not worth thinking about why.
Agreed. If you formulate such ideas, opinions and are that picky and derogatory... that means its just time for that ignore button and engaging other people that are actually open for discussion. On a forum. Instead of spewing, what is basically, hate.
I think, being the cause of many of those "Clicked Ignore buttons" myself, I can honestly say, it's better to let a fool reveal themselves, than to silence them. I'm glad that CSB and Smudge have the ability to discuss the value of PL and Points for 30+ pages. Honestly, I think they both have valid personal opinions. What bothers me is the people who just (And again, my hands are bloody here as well) come in to throw personal attacks.
That being said, BACK TO WHY LAND RAIDERS ARE THE BEST!!!
No but seriously, I want our Dex units to see more play. So often, we get conditioned to think that X unit is the best because it's the lynch pin of a successful Tournament list.
Did anyone think FULL Shield spam lists were viable before it succeeded? I didn't. I'm not saying LRs are going to shake the meta, but how often do people here go out of their comfort zone to see if a new unit CAN BE effective? I tried an All Warden list once. It was three squads of 10, and three Spear Captains, I think. It was actually really fun. It's efficacy was questionable, but my opponent was completely gobsmacked on what to do. Everyone is so conditioned to focus on MSU, no one was 30 Custodians with spears showing up on the front door, being like, Hello, please eat 100+ shooting attacks. Followed by charges.
I mean there could be some edge case... but mathematically, a LR just is... smelly.
The problem with the LR has been discussed a few times now and lies basically in its entire concept.
Lets sum up some traits of the LR.
It is a hugely expensive transport where transports want to be cheap.
It is also VERY durable, so easily able to protect its occupants - which usually are durable on themselves.
It has some long range firepower - yet needs to get close to deliver its cargo, where it is in grave danger if getting tarpitted or exploded by dangerous melee units.
It is a huge brick, so can block access for bigger models that need to deal with it first.
So, what would we need to do to make it worthwhile?
First option - pts reduction. That would put it in the same area as a Coronus (which noone uses as well for the same reasons).
Second option, and that is one I am personally very fond of - assault ramps.
If you give it assault ramps, you can get like a 19" move with the troops inside. That is quite a thing to pay for and THEN fall back, using its durability to survive for the turn while whatever could want to target it is destracted by whatever it just unloaded.
Third option - some other rules that make it feasible to stick around at the front. Being able to fire while still in combat, at whatever unit without penalty with the MACHINE SPIRIT keyword, e.g. Being able to pass terrain because it just crashes through it, e.g. being able to traverse BREACHABLE Terrain.
Fourth Option - finally give it the invul it requires as its a Custodes Land Raider and give it ObSec, making it count as 5 models so it can do something when it returns after delivering its cargo.
But it does need something, and T9 isn't it. Its just too expensive and/or hybrid for a MBT or a transport.
If we truly are Custodes, then we should have more units with built in, or purchasable Teleport packs. We shouldn't need to waste CP on FGLTC, or Transports. We are Custodes.
Now you've got me wishlisting.
Give SCs a 15point teleport Homer that can pull down entire squads on their location. Like what the flag has, but other non-flag units.
Also, the flag, when is the last time anyone mentioned it as a valuable take on a list? No one ever seems to take them these days.
guys if we agree that a main body of 6 assorted contemptor dreads should be the core of the custode army atm, would you guys then rather have lots of infantry to back that up og salvo bikes to be a Killy threat to stuff?
I feel its either blocks of:
Trajan and saggitarums or dont use Trajan and then run lots of guards. Or 2x3 bikes.
6 contemptors is too many. You need to have an actual shooting threat in your list.
The standard competitive build right now is Trajann, 6 bikes, and 2-3 contemptors. The only time you don't take bikes is when you're taking a bunch of Caladius and Pallas. I suppose you could skip bikes if you have a detachment of armigers, but even those can't match the versatility and raw efficiency of bikes.
Do whatever makes YOU feel like you're having fun. Don't run Tournament lists, it's not tailored for a good time. If you want to run tons of bots and boots, go for it! Although, Bots and Babes (Temptors and Sisters) would make a better option....
I am not of the tourny seen, but my reddit tags haven't shown me any Custodes Competitive success in the past few months. Could there be a tripTemptor list?
Yeah, i sort of want to go dub temptor, dub galatus and dub archillus. That leaves room for trajan, bike cap and 3x3 naked guards. Might be two dreads til much, though.
Ok. Would you always take the bikes still? I don’t agree traj is worthless. But let’s not go down that road now 😅
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry for spamming, but what is the correct build of the plate captain at the moment? Does he need auric exemplar? I like to have that on my bike cap but then I dont really know how to make the plate guy Killy. how is he typically build now and how should I play him?
The Centura is only there cause she's cheap and gives you access to some psychic defence.
You can spend 1 of your 6 CP to give her the relic flamer and she actually can do damage, or 1 to give her silent judge so she can turn off obsec. Both options are pretty useful.
Dreadspam is one playstyle where you go min troops 3x3 and take the dreads to flood the board with units. Its gonna be real good into lists that spam 2 damage attacks (other stodes) or that spam str6 and less. It wont be good into mortal wounds and anti-tank.
Scoundrel80 wrote: Yup. I agree. What about Trajan and the plate cap instead of the centura? Is the centura still the best choice with traj if you only run a few girls?
Also, how do you build the plate cap now and what is his role and are the bikes still mandatory?
Lastly, what about those dread spam lists? Is 6 assorted contemptora viable? Something Like 2x vanilla, 2x achillus and 2x galatus?
The praetotian plate captain is not really viable anymore since the loss of obsec. When talking about dread spam it's almost always 3 Achillus and 3 venerable contemptors with multimelta.
Trajann is still definitely a must take even after the points increase. Bikes still pop up in most lists, they are still a very good and fast anti tank option.
Good luck playing a Bike list. I've been flat out told by numerous other players that they will not play me if I use that list. Even though it has glaring weaknesses, it's still really ugly to play against.
If you are instead going full competitive, that changes things.
Thing is, Bikes, have to be taken in large groups due to Ro3. The other bad problem is that you quickly run outside the range of your buffers, like captains, flags, and Trajann. Finally, you are pretty much giving up the objectives, due to lack of obsec.
Yeah, that's what I figured. Bikes are capable of good damage, but not in enough ways to make them as versatile as our Contemptors. I think we have boots and Bots to look forward to until 10th.
That's because they are suffering from Codex Creep. No one plays them competitively anymore, because they aren't SUPER HOT. Right now it's Nids, and Chaos I think?
The meta is some combination of contemptors, caladius, and bikes. I suspect builds with 9+ bikes will remain a force to be reckoned with. I haven’t seen any recent lists that take more than 2-3 contemptors. I also haven’t yet seen the venerable contemptors that AoW was so hot about recently.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: That's because they are suffering from Codex Creep. No one plays them competitively anymore, because they aren't SUPER HOT. Right now it's Nids, and Chaos I think?
LOL nobody is playing Chaos Marines I can assure you that. Last total winnings for bigger tournaments was 45%, which is dreadful for a new codex.
had the most insane game ever yesterday vs DG. I ran
Trajan
Bike cap
2x3 sag prosecutors
2x venerable
achillus
galatus
2x3 salvo bikes
witchseekers (yeah, I know. but I hade 70 points left exactly.)
he ran the tourney list with morty that just won something last week. we played all five rounds and used every inch of the table. I went too far too early and got smashed on 2 objectives. Then I lured morty to the center and tried to smash him with all I had left (I would score 15 for auric mortals. yeah not an optimum choice of secondary But I wanted to try it out).
he survived my first attempt with 3 wounds but then I got him the next turn. We fought back and forth until the last turn and I won narrowly.
Amazing game. Love nephilim. 9th never felt better : )
I will agree, I feel like this is the most balanced that Custodes have ever felt. We are not OP, but we aren't gutter trash either.
Althopugh I feel like your opponent was silly to throw Morty at you in the Center, and the dice were on your side (We lose that fight no matter what 5/6 times) I still feel this is the best we've been since launch in 8th. We don't have any glaring need for nerfs, and our best units are very iffy.
I really want to see axes maybe do 3 damage instead of 2, but oh well.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I will agree, I feel like this is the most balanced that Custodes have ever felt. We are not OP, but we aren't gutter trash either.
Althopugh I feel like your opponent was silly to throw Morty at you in the Center, and the dice were on your side (We lose that fight no matter what 5/6 times) I still feel this is the best we've been since launch in 8th. We don't have any glaring need for nerfs, and our best units are very iffy.
I really want to see axes maybe do 3 damage instead of 2, but oh well.
yeah, he was in a tough spot though. he was winning but wasn't really using his 450point centerpiece as he was trying to avoid giving me 15 points. But he had the chance to get my bikes in maybe even Trajan in the center. we played the mission that cuts all your cp if warlord dies. So he played miasma and went for the bikes with a 6inch charge with a reroll. he missed and now my silly trap was actually dangerous as my bikes were still in the mix.
so my turn I move all remaining units within range up to shoot and charge. 6 bikes, Trajan, Achillus, galatus with 1 wound and 3 saggitarum. I move into dacatarai for more attacks (in hindsight maybe the sixes auto wound on monsters one had been better). I get him down to 5 wounds in the shooting as 2 dam6 missiles pass through for a whopping 8 dam (I think) after reduction and FNPs. then I just can't get anything through in melee even with slayers of nightmares (morty turns of rerolls and miasma is hard) and he survives with 2 wounds. he kills 3 bikes I think and then falls back on his turn, iirc, as morty would probably not get the opportunity to fight and he rather wanted to get a final cp. His termies charge my remaining bikes and Morty then dies next turn. from there on I manage a crazy comeback and with my fifteen points in the bank I get the win after scoring 4-4 the first two turns vs his 8-12.
the morty thing was a tough call for him. just having such a piece in the backfield feels wierd and he would have won if he had made that charge I think.
Either way he ended up doing it wrong in the end thats for sure.
guys, are telemons completely out of the question at the moment? I check out their stats again and again.. they have such weak shooting imo. I just saw the winning list from last week that ran 2 armiger helverins. I was stunned to look them up and realize they cost 100 points less than a telemon and are twice as good.
Please convince me that telemons are not horrible`?
Automatically Appended Next Post: how should I run them? im thinking two culverins or a culverin and a caestus to keep them down in points. but.. the archnus seems, I dont want to say good, but decent maybe?
Telemons arent horrible.
Armigers also arent "twice as good" - they got more firepower, but pay for that in defensive stats.
The Telemon is basically THE toughest vehicle in the game rn.
Which, unfortunately, doesnt win you games.. or mean much.
Telemons are best use with a combo loadout. Illiastus seem to be preferable at this stage.
Ok. Im glad you have at least a little faith in Them. So one culverin and a fist or two culverin?
I sort of want to run two and run Them up the Field instead of Holding the backline so ceastus seams better. To keep Them relevant in two phases i mean.
Definitely mixed loadout.
If you go dual gun, you are really bad in melee.
If you go dual fist, you gain 1 flamer and 1A.
The mixed loadout is basically the best of two worlds - you can reach out while you close in on something and then pummel it when you're there.
Telemons are not exactly a competitive option, but they're not terrible.
For standard play, they're still a solid anchor that takes some work to take down.
Thairne wrote: Definitely mixed loadout.
If you go dual gun, you are really bad in melee.
If you go dual fist, you gain 1 flamer and 1A.
The mixed loadout is basically the best of two worlds - you can reach out while you close in on something and then pummel it when you're there.
Telemons are not exactly a competitive option, but they're not terrible.
For standard play, they're still a solid anchor that takes some work to take down.
Two key notes though regarding the dual gun loadout though:
1. You can shoot in melee. That extra gun, for most targets, is about the same as the first overall
2. The gun is 48" of range so it isn't like it'll be too difficult to position safely
it not only gives you a wider profile for defending yourself, those 4 S8 attacks will likely bounce of any armour you find and then deal 1W.
A shooty telemon kills 4 MEQ per turn. 7 if you shoot in combat.
A mixed telemon kills 2 on approach with the illiastus, another with the flamer, then 4 with the caestus.
While thats "only" 7, remember that this gun is specifically designed to kill MEQs.
What if you run into a vehicle? A monstrous creature? A horde? Or even a dreadnought? This would all skew the results largely in the favour of the mixed loadout.
Detachment Type / Shield Host: Adeptus Custodes, Emperor's Chosen
+ HQ +
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [10 PL, -3CP, 180pts]: (Emperor's Chosen): Auric Exemplar, 3. Superior Creation, Castellan's Mark, Misericordia, Salvo Launcher, Stratagem: Relic, Stratagem: The Emperor's Heroes, Stratagem: Victor of the Blood Games, Tip of the Spear
Trajann Valoris [8 PL, 200pts]: 1. Master of Martial Strategy, 2. Champion of the Imperium, Stratagem: Warlord Trait
I kept two guns on the second telemon as I picture him as a backline holder. but maybe thats just silly. Thairne makes sense. should I just go fist/culverin on him too?
Ive been playing 2x3 bikes since for ever and I realize custodes have NO ranged anti tank without them, I hope ill get through with this still, though.
it not only gives you a wider profile for defending yourself, those 4 S8 attacks will likely bounce of any armour you find and then deal 1W.
A shooty telemon kills 4 MEQ per turn. 7 if you shoot in combat.
A mixed telemon kills 2 on approach with the illiastus, another with the flamer, then 4 with the caestus.
While thats "only" 7, remember that this gun is specifically designed to kill MEQs.
What if you run into a vehicle? A monstrous creature? A horde? Or even a dreadnought? This would all skew the results largely in the favour of the mixed loadout.
Why is a Dread with 2 48" guns getting into combat with a Dread? Even against a Deep Striking one that's unlikely.
Because the enemy usually has something planned on his own.
Replace a dread with anything else with -1D. Dreadnoughts are just the most common example.
But if you dont see the math being downright better and the unit being more flexible instead of being a 260pt non obsec backline sitter that falls flat against anything non-SM...
its not that the mixed loadout isnt more versital though. It's that your opponent will most likely make half your profile useless by never approaching.
This can be a good thing, as it means a telemon can basically zone out a chunk of the table.
The shooty version will however, get more value out of its weapons over the course of the game, whereas the mixed and melee versions will be less efficient, but also be a useful zoning tool.
Eihnlazer wrote: its not that the mixed loadout isnt more versital though. It's that your opponent will most likely make half your profile useless by never approaching.
This can be a good thing, as it means a telemon can basically zone out a chunk of the table.
The shooty version will however, get more value out of its weapons over the course of the game, whereas the mixed and melee versions will be less efficient, but also be a useful zoning tool.
Seriously, if you are burning your precious 6CP on a DS telemon, I don't know what to tell you. No self respecting player is going to leave a giant gap in the middle of their back field, with a sign on it that says "Feel free to drop a mini knight right here and charge my WL after melting my other HQs."
Custodes are soldiers, who walk forward, very slowly, and punch things in the face. Sometimes they ride bikes, but those cost a lot, and Wardens are basically free. Dreads loose out on all the best abilities that make Custodes what they are. They also turn into dead weight after your opponent melts them to their bottom bracket in turn 2 with dedicated AT fire.
so I ran the double telemon list vs drukhari and it was glorious. ended up culverin/fist on both and they just dominated totally.
I felt they were so weak going in but they drew a lot of fire power and even though they have very few shots, they always hit. and being so dangerous in melee gives them an edge that 4 extra shots can't even begin to make up for.
so yeah, thairne. I guess your assessment was spot on.
Automatically Appended Next Post: btw: the spacious bolt launcher says "if the model hasn't moved this TURN (not battle round) change number of shots to heavy 10". so if you get charged in your opponents turn and opt to overwatch it will always be ten shots no matter what you did on your turn, right?
I never thought about this. it makes the culverin fist combo pretty amazing on overwatch. My opponent couldn't really charge it with the rather frail glascannon infantry. id get 2d3 s6 hits from the plasma projektor and the bolt launcher would land a few hits to according to math. Every incubi that dies is a huge blow to such a play.
Dude, no problem. Thats what these threads are all about for me was amazing to get inspiration here, build the thing you suggested, study the board and make It work.
So Thanks again.
I Think its the first time since the book dropped that i havent used at least 3xsalvo bike plus a captain. Its super wierd without Them. We simply dont have Any other ranged antitank and Because We want to take out Any High ap guns fast not having that t1 38 threat range for a hard target alpha is a Huge thing.
In this match, though, i played Drukhari so the culverins on the telemons could actually help me a little as his Vehicles are only t6.
Honestly, im not sure id take the grav tank over a telemon. I should add, that this os guesswork as the caladius is the only custode Unit i havent played irl, but this Big guys Seem very cool still. The EC reroll looks really good on Them when they Can alt ik two phases. Three with a pesky overwatch.
Well if you look at tournament play, its basically all about custodian guard/sags for that obsec, dreads for that punch and calladiuses for the range firepower.
TBH salvo bikes have really, really weak shooting for their pts cost. The big thing is in the combination of shot, speed and punch. One half-assed melta for 80pts is nothing spectacular.
A Calladius fulfills a different role than a telemon and they're not competing anyway, imo. A telemon is a mini knight and just as knights it needs to move up the board and bring all its abilities to bear. A calladius is a way cheaper gun platform with greater mobility and actually WANTS to sit back and snipe while getting good angles with its own maneuverability. So depending on what you want/need in your list, a calladius is quite good (or rather, the only option).
There are lists that are doing really well that are including 3 Helverins to plug that gap. They provide a nice amount of S7 D3 shooting in a competitively priced package.
Anyone seen the Votann codex leak on tactical tortoise? I always get told that custodes players have no right to complain because we have a decent winrate, which is true, but have you seen the einhyr hearth guard?
With the right subfaction they are T6. They come with a 2+save and have the void armor rule which is basically AoC+ (-1ap on enemy attacks and no wound and damage rolls against them) and - 1dmg for 35p per model.
I have.
Dont forge that they alternatively can come with a 4++.
At this point its just time to... shake your head.
GW is fething this up on purpose. There are too many things that explicitely call out things to be different to be mistakes, like autowounding counting as an auto 6.
They overpowered this codex with full intent.
Thairne wrote: I have.
Dont forge that they alternatively can come with a 4++.
At this point its just time to... shake your head.
GW is fething this up on purpose. There are too many things that explicitely call out things to be different to be mistakes, like autowounding counting as an auto 6.
They overpowered this codex with full intent.
The 4++ is a strong subfaction bonus for the hecaton land fortress, but I don't think the hearthguard even need it. Infantry with a 2+ and AoC+ seldomly need an invuln. Making them T6 on the other hand is nasty imo.
I'm really interested how the Votann VS custodes matchup is going to shape up eventually.
Considering there are combos where the magnarail just oneshots a squad of custodes with 8-10MW without a single dice rolled...
And the Champion with rerolls can dish 8-12MW easily as well..
I do as well. Just to see how big the big fire made of feth actually is.
I want to see how bright it burns, but burn it will.
Votan can, start of turn 1, throw down 3 tokens on an enemy unit. +1 to hit on their own unit. At that point they are hitting on 2+, and any hit of 3+ auto wounds with AP-1.
Say goodbye to three Custodes from one unit's basic weapon fire. (Admittedly buffed by HQ, but I didn't count reroll to hit either)
I guess we need to ascertain what the goal of our balance suggestion is supposed to be.
While purely considering WR, custodes are about as fine as they can be.
Top 3 placings or even winning a GT is a rarity though.
And the fluff and way the army plays as well as internal consistency is arse.
Looks like the only metric GW considers is the first one.... which is sad.
The fluff to actual table top in this game is generally arse. But to be fair, we'd have Custodes ROFLStomping all over if that were true, or Nids eating everyone. All I wanted in the entirety of 9th was flat 3 damage axes. Instead we got 2 damage accross the board, a bunch or worthless rules, strats, and gear choices, locks from using actually good combinations, and a very crappy stance system. Oh and +1 to wounds for all infantry.
I would literally give all that up for a flat 3 damage axe, and that would solve 90% of my problems and I'd actually have fun with Custodes.
I don't get the insistence for us to get AOC. I get why we should have it, but I don't get what it would do for us. We already have the best saves in the GAME. Turning off AP1 is irrelevant. Besides, GW would just screw it up and only give it to Sags or something dumb like Wardens. And only for 15ppm.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't get the insistence for us to get AOC. I get why we should have it, but I don't get what it would do for us. We already have the best saves in the GAME. Turning off AP1 is irrelevant. Besides, GW would just screw it up and only give it to Sags or something dumb like Wardens. And only for 15ppm.
We don't. Every other terminator has better protection against ap1 and ap2. And massed ap1/2 fire is how you can very effectively deal with custodes.
The insistence stems from the every increasing lethality of the game. I also think we should get AoC before a weapon dmg increase is even on the table. Whatever buff we theoretically get, it HAS to be accompanied by a points increase across the board otherwise we might go back to being too oppressive.
The point here is not competitiveness of the faction, custodes are fine (at least in comp play, how representative this is for the vast majority of players is another topic), but the faction feels like crap.
To sum it up in one sentence: the faction fantasy of custodes is not well realised in the gameplay in the context of the current state of the game and AoC can help with that, IF a buff like that is also accompanied by a points increase.
And no, making custodes more lore accurate does not mean they roflstomp everything in the setting, they never have.
Edit: so in conclusion, I believe most custodes players would prefer playing more expensive, but slightly more powerful models.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't get the insistence for us to get AOC. I get why we should have it, but I don't get what it would do for us. We already have the best saves in the GAME. Turning off AP1 is irrelevant. Besides, GW would just screw it up and only give it to Sags or something dumb like Wardens. And only for 15ppm.
We don't. Every other terminator has better protection against ap1 and ap2. And massed ap1/2 fire is how you can very effectively deal with custodes.
The insistence stems from the every increasing lethality of the game. I also think we should get AoC before a weapon dmg increase is even on the table. Whatever buff we theoretically get, it HAS to be accompanied by a points increase across the board otherwise we might go back to being too oppressive.
The point here is not competitiveness of the faction, custodes are fine (at least in comp play, how representative this is for the vast majority of players is another topic), but the faction feels like crap.
To sum it up in one sentence: the faction fantasy of custodes is not well realised in the gameplay in the context of the current state of the game and AoC can help with that, IF a buff like that is also accompanied by a points increase.
And no, making custodes more lore accurate does not mean they roflstomp everything in the setting, they never have.
Edit: so in conclusion, I believe most custodes players would prefer playing more expensive, but slightly more powerful models.
Custodes are not fine competitively. They're boring and, frankly, gak into the factions that can actually win tournaments.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't get the insistence for us to get AOC. I get why we should have it, but I don't get what it would do for us. We already have the best saves in the GAME. Turning off AP1 is irrelevant. Besides, GW would just screw it up and only give it to Sags or something dumb like Wardens. And only for 15ppm.
We don't. Every other terminator has better protection against ap1 and ap2. And massed ap1/2 fire is how you can very effectively deal with custodes.
The insistence stems from the every increasing lethality of the game. I also think we should get AoC before a weapon dmg increase is even on the table. Whatever buff we theoretically get, it HAS to be accompanied by a points increase across the board otherwise we might go back to being too oppressive.
The point here is not competitiveness of the faction, custodes are fine (at least in comp play, how representative this is for the vast majority of players is another topic), but the faction feels like crap.
To sum it up in one sentence: the faction fantasy of custodes is not well realised in the gameplay in the context of the current state of the game and AoC can help with that, IF a buff like that is also accompanied by a points increase.
And no, making custodes more lore accurate does not mean they roflstomp everything in the setting, they never have.
Edit: so in conclusion, I believe most custodes players would prefer playing more expensive, but slightly more powerful models.
Custodes are not fine competitively. They're boring and, frankly, gak into the factions that can actually win tournaments.
Imo you can only make that argument regarding actual tournament wins. Considering the comp winrate of custodes in nephilim, the faction is fine...well if you only consider the winrate metric, imo the faction is not fine especially regarding internal balance and realized faction fantasy on the tabletop.
I think people have a tendency to compare Custodes to the latest hotness. It's hard seeing everyone get super awesome buffs and shiney new models. But they would LOVE to have a 4++ on everything they own, or a 5++ on all their vehicles. Or access to a 4+++ stock standard. We have some incredibly good stuff. Do we have the new magna rail cannons? No. But they don't have a Telemon Dread, the best non-knight walker in the game. Yet.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I think people have a tendency to compare Custodes to the latest hotness. It's hard seeing everyone get super awesome buffs and shiney new models. But they would LOVE to have a 4++ on everything they own, or a 5++ on all their vehicles. Or access to a 4+++ stock standard. We have some incredibly good stuff. Do we have the new magna rail cannons? No. But they don't have a Telemon Dread, the best non-knight walker in the game. Yet.
They can actually get the 4++/5++ on everything with one of their Traits.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't get the insistence for us to get AOC. I get why we should have it, but I don't get what it would do for us. We already have the best saves in the GAME. Turning off AP1 is irrelevant. Besides, GW would just screw it up and only give it to Sags or something dumb like Wardens. And only for 15ppm.
We don't. Every other terminator has better protection against ap1 and ap2. And massed ap1/2 fire is how you can very effectively deal with custodes.
The insistence stems from the every increasing lethality of the game. I also think we should get AoC before a weapon dmg increase is even on the table. Whatever buff we theoretically get, it HAS to be accompanied by a points increase across the board otherwise we might go back to being too oppressive.
The point here is not competitiveness of the faction, custodes are fine (at least in comp play, how representative this is for the vast majority of players is another topic), but the faction feels like crap.
To sum it up in one sentence: the faction fantasy of custodes is not well realised in the gameplay in the context of the current state of the game and AoC can help with that, IF a buff like that is also accompanied by a points increase.
And no, making custodes more lore accurate does not mean they roflstomp everything in the setting, they never have.
Edit: so in conclusion, I believe most custodes players would prefer playing more expensive, but slightly more powerful models.
Custodes are not fine competitively. They're boring and, frankly, gak into the factions that can actually win tournaments.
Imo you can only make that argument regarding actual tournament wins. Considering the comp winrate of custodes in nephilim, the faction is fine...well if you only consider the winrate metric, imo the faction is not fine especially regarding internal balance and realized faction fantasy on the tabletop.
TiWP is more important.
I mean you can make a strong competitive list and bash all the more casual gamers in your group with near any army. But if you really want to talk competition, you have to talk how often you are pulling wins against the actual good armies.
My main area of salt is our durability, specifically our infantry.
They upped the AP of nearly all armies across the board, realised this just hosed armies build around good armour save so introduced AoC..... on everything but Custodes, the most elite of armoured dudes.
Most weapons take us to a 4++ and doing three wounds through that is pretty trivial given the restrictions to our defensive strats.
A 4++ in itself is good but most armies in the now name have access to an army wide invuln so its nothing special.
Add to that the removal of Obsec from all our not troop infantry and the army only really works now by taking mass dreads.
The issue is that mass dreads is still good so they are unlikely to un-nerf us if they just look at win rates, where as what all the nerfs mainly did was make most of the codex irrelevant :-(
Thairne wrote: A telemon doesnt look so hot these days. When was the last time one was used anywhere serious?
How about a AoC 2+ T9 Transport with S14 gun that ignores invuls and shuts off wound rerolls for 30 pts less than a basic telemon?
space dwarves?
Yes, Votann Land Fortress with a specific subfaction that gives everything +1T.
Heavy 1, S14 -4 2D3+6 ignore invul.
AoC 2+ T9 16W no wRRs
230 pts.
For added fun, if you auto wound with judgement tokens or roll a 6, it basically causes MW as they spill over just like MWs do.
So with character support which can turn any wound roll into a 6..... and there's a strat that causes it to auto hit.
So, auto hit, auto wound, 10 MW on average. And that is before the other guns of the thing start shooting. Wipes out a unit of Guard or a Dreadnought without a single dice rolled.
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WisdomLS wrote: My main area of salt is our durability, specifically our infantry.
They upped the AP of nearly all armies across the board, realised this just hosed armies build around good armour save so introduced AoC..... on everything but Custodes, the most elite of armoured dudes.
Most weapons take us to a 4++ and doing three wounds through that is pretty trivial given the restrictions to our defensive strats.
A 4++ in itself is good but most armies in the now name have access to an army wide invuln so its nothing special.
Add to that the removal of Obsec from all our not troop infantry and the army only really works now by taking mass dreads.
The issue is that mass dreads is still good so they are unlikely to un-nerf us if they just look at win rates, where as what all the nerfs mainly did was make most of the codex irrelevant :-(
artific3r wrote: To be fair, most units in most codexes are irrelevant. I'd say the Custodes book is above average in terms of percentage of usable units.
That's not the feat you think it is when you realize the codex itself is like 8 units LOL
Well lets just take a kinda subjective look at if a unit is relevant in GT play.
Trajann
Bike Captain
Custodian Guard
Sagittarum Guard
Achillus Dreadnaught
Galatus Dreadnought
Ven Contemptor Dreadnought
Vertus Praetors
Caladius Grav Tank
thats 9 sheets out of 33. Thats 27% relevance.
If that isnt poor, I dont know... You can nudge the number up a bit with fringe cases, but thats really, really poor, especially in such a small range in the first place. That just speaks of TERRIBLE internal balance if 73% if your units are not relevant.
I'd also include telemon dreads, prosecutors, vexilus praetors, allarus terminator captains, allarus terminators, venatari, and pallas grav-attacks. All of these have appeared in a top 4 placing list in the past 3-4 months.
That brings it up to 16 datasheets, which is roughly half of the codex. Hard to think of another faction where 50% of its units are represented in top 4 tournament lists. Harlequins I guess. Probably knights? Not to mention the fact that several factions can barely break top 4 at all, whereas Custodes show up pretty consistently.
If Custodes is your only army I can understand that having a bunch of irrelevant units in your book feels bad. But if you've actually played other factions you'd know that Custodes have it better off than most.
Oh I play admech.
I know how it feels to have half of the codex being so non viable you cant even bring it in narrative games.
While I'd despute your additions, especially after the obsec nerf, there's always proof and some list that won somewhere. Not meaning it as an insult, just that the definition of "irrelevance" can be very subjective
artific3r wrote: I'd also include telemon dreads, prosecutors, vexilus praetors, allarus terminator captains, allarus terminators, venatari, and pallas grav-attacks. All of these have appeared in a top 4 placing list in the past 3-4 months.
That brings it up to 16 datasheets, which is roughly half of the codex. Hard to think of another faction where 50% of its units are represented in top 4 tournament lists. Harlequins I guess. Probably knights? Not to mention the fact that several factions can barely break top 4 at all, whereas Custodes show up pretty consistently.
If Custodes is your only army I can understand that having a bunch of irrelevant units in your book feels bad. But if you've actually played other factions you'd know that Custodes have it better off than most.
Yoou could add those, but you would be wrong to. They're mostly not very good.
Honestly, how did we end up in a state where a datasheet like the Telemon is considered not that good anymore? Really makes you think about power creep.
Terminators are definitely not among the viable units in comp play, so is the terminator captain. Venatari haven't seen real play since we've lost our double shoot stratagem. Agamatus Custodes are just laughable since GW can't even be bothered to update them to the standard of the codex jetbikes.
So yeah, internal balance seems pretty bleak no matter the angle you look at it. At least terminators and wardens were useful before the dataslate.
I actually Terminators got a little more viable thanks to Squats to getting the spillover wounds with those guns. Unleash The Lions makes them far less efficient.
Forgeworld units are very hit and miss as to whether they are balanced or not - GW doesn't seem to care about them so its just random luck in my view.
The codex units on the other hand should be at least semi viable, the issue they have is that they f'ed up the dataslate and removed one of the core rules our book was written around - "Obsec infantry". Removing that made wardens and terminators completely pointless as Guard could do very similar things to those units but cheaper and with obsec.
Unlike other codexs we didn't have any obsec ticks worked into our relics or Traits as we had an army rule to cover it, removing it forced us into using the dreads and tanks that were already the best things in the army and also things that didn't have it in the first place.
Sadly, one of the worst paradoxes of Custodes is that because they are SO small and limited in their codex, any small change has massive consquences and rippling effects. A Change to axes affects almost 1/3 of the codex. A change to spears affects half. So it's hard to minutely alter the game when it comes to custodes.
Terminators, telemons, and venatari are all absolutely viable in competitive play.
Are they all auto-take units? No. Have they all shown up in a top-4 placing list at a GT-level event in the past 3 months? Yes, absolutely they have.
Should we just ignore tournament data when talking about competitive viability? Martin Nielsen's 2nd place finish at Midtcon GT just doesn't count? Or Henry Lam's 2nd place finish at Bogota GT? I suppose these guys must have just got lucky, because according to randos on dakka they are running "irrelevant" and "unviable' units.
You have to, HAVE TO, consider the factors in each "Tournament finish". Just because it was a tournament doesn't mean it was the competitive equivalent (based around average player skill) of say, Adepticon or LVO. 1st place at that event was Orks. ORKS. Are we saying orks are in a better place than us? It gets worse as you go down the list. Necrons were top 10. Are they suddenly the new hotness? No. Custodes are competitive, and capable of being highly played, but Custodes in a total vaccum cannot beat Votann or most of the new creepers. Their weakest tank is more then our mightiest unit.
Not trying to be rude, but it seems pretty reasonable to assume that Martin Nielsen's take on Custodes is a lot more credible than yours. (Or mine, for that matter.)
Unless you are out there winning GTs, your opinions on unit viability are really limited to your own personal, casual meta. If you want to use this thread to complain about unit performance in your casual meta, fine. But let's not pretend that actual competitive custodes players don't exist. They do, and they're utilizing roughly half of the available datasheets in the book, which is undeniably above average compared to other factions.
I just wanted to point out the sillyness of slicing off one random tournament and claiming that it represents the Meta.
Orks won the entire tournament. Orks are the best faction in the game now I guess. Nothing else to see here, unless.....extremely small subsets of data are extremely unlikely to represent the entirety of the wider narrative? Is that possibly the case?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: You have to, HAVE TO, consider the factors in each "Tournament finish". Just because it was a tournament doesn't mean it was the competitive equivalent (based around average player skill) of say, Adepticon or LVO. 1st place at that event was Orks. ORKS. Are we saying orks are in a better place than us? It gets worse as you go down the list. Necrons were top 10. Are they suddenly the new hotness? No. Custodes are competitive, and capable of being highly played, but Custodes in a total vaccum cannot beat Votann or most of the new creepers. Their weakest tank is more then our mightiest unit.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: You have to, HAVE TO, consider the factors in each "Tournament finish". Just because it was a tournament doesn't mean it was the competitive equivalent (based around average player skill) of say, Adepticon or LVO. 1st place at that event was Orks. ORKS. Are we saying orks are in a better place than us? It gets worse as you go down the list. Necrons were top 10. Are they suddenly the new hotness? No. Custodes are competitive, and capable of being highly played, but Custodes in a total vaccum cannot beat Votann or most of the new creepers. Their weakest tank is more then our mightiest unit.
Necrons actually are the new hotness
Damn, I've been away from the game for a hot minute and the entire meta goes bonkers. F everything I said. I give up trying to understand the Meta.
I thought it was still SoB, Nids, and Chaos. I have no clue where the meta is, obviously. My only point is to say we are "competitive" because of one single sample is highly misleading.
I do agree that we are still competitive, just not 2nd place level competitive.
Bids are probably number one overall because there’s a bunch of ways to play and tailor them still and top tournaments. Crons expansionist is number two. Number three likely is still clowns
I am unsure how it's possible thse LoV stat lines are shipping in this state. Custodes should be 22 ppm now if all our defenses are pointless, Invulns don't matter, cover doesn't matter, and FNP doesn't matter.
Just to chip in, is it right to say a unit is weak because there is a small selection of weapons that are efficient at killing them? Custodian guard certainly don't like high ROF, mid ap, D3 weapons, but how many armies can really bring that en mass.
Unless GW is handing it out too casually (and yes, i know they have a tendency to do so) it should be on maybe 2 or 3 units in an enemies army, meaning you can try and take out those priority targets first or try to trade units to put you in a better position later in the game.
Yes LOV are pretty damn strong right now, but I think most people are expecting them to get a nerf sooner rather than later. Be it adjustments in points or the dataslate changing how some things interact. Maybe their railguns will only be able to spill over onto a second model or something. To represent it penetrating one dude then clipping another, more realistic than a unit conga lining.
On a one on one level most custodes are still pretty tough and decently killy.
cody.d. wrote: Just to chip in, is it right to say a unit is weak because there is a small selection of weapons that are efficient at killing them? Custodian guard certainly don't like high ROF, mid ap, D3 weapons, but how many armies can really bring that en mass.
Unless GW is handing it out too casually (and yes, i know they have a tendency to do so) it should be on maybe 2 or 3 units in an enemies army, meaning you can try and take out those priority targets first or try to trade units to put you in a better position later in the game.
Yes LOV are pretty damn strong right now, but I think most people are expecting them to get a nerf sooner rather than later. Be it adjustments in points or the dataslate changing how some things interact. Maybe their railguns will only be able to spill over onto a second model or something. To represent it penetrating one dude then clipping another, more realistic than a unit conga lining.
On a one on one level most custodes are still pretty tough and decently killy.
One on one model level does not matter LOL. Points do.
What are three things that Stop Custodes dead in their tracks?
1. Easy Invulns/FNP. We have no good way of breaking down anything with a 4++ or a good FnP save. This also covers AoC units, as most of our weapons now wound on a 5+ no matter what if the target is in cover.
2. Damage reduction. Oh, your target can only take X number of wounds per phase, or is -1 to all damage? Well, you just invalidated 90% of our faction as it's D2 across the board, and mostly in one single phase.
3. Anything that can punch through invulns and deal heavy unavoidable damage. See: "Tau, clowns, LoV, and now daemons." So your tank just shot one volley and wiped my 7W 2+/4++4/+++ off the map? That seems fair."
cody.d. wrote: Just to chip in, is it right to say a unit is weak because there is a small selection of weapons that are efficient at killing them? Custodian guard certainly don't like high ROF, mid ap, D3 weapons, but how many armies can really bring that en mass.
Unless GW is handing it out too casually (and yes, i know they have a tendency to do so) it should be on maybe 2 or 3 units in an enemies army, meaning you can try and take out those priority targets first or try to trade units to put you in a better position later in the game.
Yes LOV are pretty damn strong right now, but I think most people are expecting them to get a nerf sooner rather than later. Be it adjustments in points or the dataslate changing how some things interact. Maybe their railguns will only be able to spill over onto a second model or something. To represent it penetrating one dude then clipping another, more realistic than a unit conga lining.
On a one on one level most custodes are still pretty tough and decently killy.
A small selection of weapons? Custodes are vulnerable to any Dmg3, massed Ap2 fire, auto wounding mechanics and mortals...yes, mortal wounds because not every list is or should be limited to Emperors Chosen.
All of these things have been given out en masse in 9th, nobody can dispute that. Every single faction released at least got an increase in Ap on most weapons. Hence why they even introduced AoC in the first place. Killing Custodes infantry in 9th in laughably easier than it was in 8th. The things keeping us afloat are the dreadnoughts, Trajann and the Caladius. Sagittarum are good because they can shoot very well in emissaries but they are not tough for what they cost.
Are Custodes unplayable? Again, no absolutely not, but it's just a fact that the games lethality has run past them at an alarming rate.
The list was Trajann, bike cap, blade champ, vexilus with +1A banner, 3x1 axe allarus, ven dread, 5x shield guard, 3x shield guard, 3x4 sags, 5x prosecutors
So looking at event results, I highly doubt Custodes will have any major adjustments in the next balance dataslate. We rarely take 1st place, but have consistent presence in top placings every week, and have an almost exactly 50% winrate. Custodes are a balanced, mid-table bully, with plenty of competitively viable datasheets, and that is a perfectly fine place for a faction to be.
Again, single piece of sand does not a beach make. Custodes are FAR from performing at the broken level they were performing at. By GW's own admitted metric, we are about 54% WR, whereas clowns are almost 70%, and their eyes will likely be on them and others. We need no major changes. There are some small changes we could use, but nothing like what Clowns, Nids, and LoV are needing.
I would love to know what the purpose of taking above the minimum number of troops was. Or the Blade Champ. 5 shield guard and 3x shield guard, 2 sets of sag, and a batch of sisters seems like overkill. Any vids or run down?
So basically, his plan was to make a list of complete basic, no frills, one strength, with major glaring weaknesses, and pray that they don't run into Tau, Eldar, or anything with heavy mortals.
This is the crux with Custodes. We look really good on paper, and are generally fun to play, but throw anything at us with 3d weapons, lots of AP, MWs, or hordes, and we nosedive pretty fast. I still enjoy painting my dudes, but I don't think I'll pull them off the shelf for at least another year, unless 10th drops ALL the codexes at once. (Not gonna happen)
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So basically, his plan was to make a list of complete basic, no frills, one strength, with major glaring weaknesses, and pray that they don't run into Tau, Eldar, or anything with heavy mortals.
This is the crux with Custodes. We look really good on paper, and are generally fun to play, but throw anything at us with 3d weapons, lots of AP, MWs, or hordes, and we nosedive pretty fast. I still enjoy painting my dudes, but I don't think I'll pull them off the shelf for at least another year, unless 10th drops ALL the codexes at once. (Not gonna happen)
I'm more surprised he didn't mix at least one Buckler for his jump pack dudes.
Right? I mean he even admits he kinda took sub standard options, but doesn't say why. I wonder what the level of skill was in his opponents. I doubt he was playing the Magnus Carlsons of 40k.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Right? I mean he even admits he kinda took sub standard options, but doesn't say why. I wonder what the level of skill was in his opponents. I doubt he was playing the Magnus Carlsons of 40k.
I don't think it's terribly high for either. Dude said he should've lost the Tau matchup to begin with and was surprised he didn't.
I dunno, are Tau really the boogeyman we make them out to be for us? They have 1 REALLY good unit, that can spam stupid ammounts of MWs to 1 model. Great, you just took that 1 Terminator off the board. But I'm not up on their other high jinks. Do they have anything beyond the Rail Guns that our 2+/4++/4+++ can't over come? Especially on a weak opponent that isn't used to the Camp and Win Custodes method. Surely the Nids would have been a far worse matchup. But he wins that one far more easily. Or am I reading it wrong?
I signed up for a 40k tournament and I haven't been playing this game in a while. Could you please tell me where I can find the updated rules for the custodes army and for the game in general?
I found these two documents but I'm sure there is more:
I signed up for a 40k tournament and I haven't been playing this game in a while. Could you please tell me where I can find the updated rules for the custodes army and for the game in general?
I found these two documents but I'm sure there is more:
GW have been patching the competitive game for the last two years and do so in various ways, I'll list those that are relevant to the current game.
Chapter Approved Books - these are released every 6 month and contain updated mission rules, matched play rules, and various other things needed to play competetive 40K - The latest one is Chapter Approved Warzone Nephilim: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/warzone-nephilim-grand-tournament-mission-pack-2022-eng You will need this book to play in a tournament: - unfortunately its out of stock in alot of places..... The next version is due for release in december, if you can borrow one until then.
Updated points - GW try to balance units by changing the points every 6 month, thankfuly they now give those points away for free instead of charging for them. It's called the munitorum field manual and you can find it here: https://www.warhammer-community.com/downloads/#warhammer-40000 Also at the above downloads link you will find a document called the balance dataslate, every 3 months GW release a rules change document that is designed to nerf the best preforming armies and boost the weakest armies, its is nearly universally used for matched play and you will need to take a look if you are playing custodes.
FAQs for rulebooks and codexs: https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/ These cover typos, clarifications and sometime balance alterations - the is a download of more or less all books released - no they aren't in a good order or colated in any way :-(
I think that is everything, I've likely forgotten something. Writing that has just reiterated to me what a horrible hobby this is to try and introduce to new players, what a gak show all those documents are.
That said, good luck getting back in - the rules can be a messy dogpile but the game can still be very fun and the painting and modelling aspect is always a joy assuming you enjoy that kind of thing :-)
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just signed up for a tourny and you need to understand the rules? I hope you have a good time! It sounds like you have a lot of studying to get done!
He doesn't need to understand the rules, he needs to catch up on what's up to date. That's perfectly reasonable to be frank
@WisdomLS: thanks a lot for the exhaustive answer, it was very helpful indeed.
I've only played few games in 9th edition as almost all of my friends decided to switch to HH which I also like but I still cannot play for obvious reasons (damn you gw just release the rulebook I so desperately need please!). I have the codex and the datacards and indeed @EviscerationPlague I should only catch up on what's up to date. Hopefully this won't take me too much time.
@Thairne the tournament organizer wants the list written with battlescribe so I guess I won't have to be worried about that.
A really useful website where they seem to transcribe all the game rules and put in it a nicely searchable format! Its nicely kept up to date and really handy for looking up rules mid game.
Its hosted on a russian server so I imagine its immune to GWs trying to shut it down - either that of they use it themselves
Spado wrote: @WisdomLS: thanks a lot for the exhaustive answer, it was very helpful indeed.
I've only played few games in 9th edition as almost all of my friends decided to switch to HH which I also like but I still cannot play for obvious reasons (damn you gw just release the rulebook I so desperately need please!). I have the codex and the datacards and indeed @EviscerationPlague I should only catch up on what's up to date. Hopefully this won't take me too much time.
@Thairne the tournament organizer wants the list written with battlescribe so I guess I won't have to be worried about that.
Just regarding the Balance Dataslate: not everything is displayed in battlescribe. There are some heavy changes in the balance dataslate regarding some of our key stratagems, that you really need to know if you want to go to a tournament. Also some of our units lost the objective secured ability, which is also quite an important change that heavily affects gameplay of some units (wardens and terminators specifically).
The dataslate can be found on warhammer community, but be advised that there is going to be a new balance dataslate before the end of this month, which is going to make the previous dataslate obsolete.
I find it hilarious that IG (According to the new leaks) can literally give any unit in their force ObSec now, and their vehicles count as 5, their superheavies count as 10. Elites are 3 each. So with a simple order, that max squad of Ogryns now counts as 28 obsec models. Awesome. Really glad we were told our bikes having Obsec was TOO OP.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I find it hilarious that IG (According to the new leaks) can literally give any unit in their force ObSec now, and their vehicles count as 5, their superheavies count as 10. Elites are 3 each. So with a simple order, that max squad of Ogryns now counts as 28 obsec models. Awesome. Really glad we were told our bikes having Obsec was TOO OP.
That's not really a fair comparison, besides....bikes never had obsec in 9th edition in the first place....
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I find it hilarious that IG (According to the new leaks) can literally give any unit in their force ObSec now, and their vehicles count as 5, their superheavies count as 10. Elites are 3 each. So with a simple order, that max squad of Ogryns now counts as 28 obsec models. Awesome. Really glad we were told our bikes having Obsec was TOO OP.
Spado wrote: @WisdomLS: thanks a lot for the exhaustive answer, it was very helpful indeed.
I've only played few games in 9th edition as almost all of my friends decided to switch to HH which I also like but I still cannot play for obvious reasons (damn you gw just release the rulebook I so desperately need please!). I have the codex and the datacards and indeed @EviscerationPlague I should only catch up on what's up to date. Hopefully this won't take me too much time.
@Thairne the tournament organizer wants the list written with battlescribe so I guess I won't have to be worried about that.
Just regarding the Balance Dataslate: not everything is displayed in battlescribe. There are some heavy changes in the balance dataslate regarding some of our key stratagems, that you really need to know if you want to go to a tournament. Also some of our units lost the objective secured ability, which is also quite an important change that heavily affects gameplay of some units (wardens and terminators specifically).
The dataslate can be found on warhammer community, but be advised that there is going to be a new balance dataslate before the end of this month, which is going to make the previous dataslate obsolete.
I just read the dataslate: if I understand it correctly only custodian guards and prosecutors have the objective secure rule?
Spado wrote: @WisdomLS: thanks a lot for the exhaustive answer, it was very helpful indeed.
I've only played few games in 9th edition as almost all of my friends decided to switch to HH which I also like but I still cannot play for obvious reasons (damn you gw just release the rulebook I so desperately need please!). I have the codex and the datacards and indeed @EviscerationPlague I should only catch up on what's up to date. Hopefully this won't take me too much time.
@Thairne the tournament organizer wants the list written with battlescribe so I guess I won't have to be worried about that.
Just regarding the Balance Dataslate: not everything is displayed in battlescribe. There are some heavy changes in the balance dataslate regarding some of our key stratagems, that you really need to know if you want to go to a tournament. Also some of our units lost the objective secured ability, which is also quite an important change that heavily affects gameplay of some units (wardens and terminators specifically).
The dataslate can be found on warhammer community, but be advised that there is going to be a new balance dataslate before the end of this month, which is going to make the previous dataslate obsolete.
I just read the dataslate: if I understand it correctly only custodian guards and prosecutors have the objective secure rule?
And the Sagitarum (Spelling? The guys from ForgeWorld with the guns).
I just finished reading the chapter approved and I was wondering if you could suggest me some of the best secondary objectives for our golden boys. Additionally I also noticed that now one has to pay for a warlord trait as well as for the relic. Is it actually worth it? Finally I’d like to have some feedback regarding this 2000 points list.
Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
Detachment Type / Shield Host: Adeptus Custodes, Emperor's Chosen
Game Type: 4. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim
+ HQ +
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [10 PL, 175pts, -1CP]: 3. Superior Creation, Hurricane Bolter, Misericordia, Stratagem: Warlord Trait, Tip of the Spear, Warlord
Spado wrote: I just finished reading the chapter approved and I was wondering if you could suggest me some of the best secondary objectives for our golden boys. Additionally I also noticed that now one has to pay for a warlord trait as well as for the relic. Is it actually worth it? Finally I’d like to have some feedback regarding this 2000 points list.
Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
Detachment Type / Shield Host: Adeptus Custodes, Emperor's Chosen
Game Type: 4. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim
+ HQ +
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [10 PL, 175pts, -1CP]: 3. Superior Creation, Hurricane Bolter, Misericordia, Stratagem: Warlord Trait, Tip of the Spear, Warlord
The list looks fine. If you have access to Trajann Valoris I'd consider including him. There's a reason he's a staple in most comp lists. He's a very good force multiplier, he's a beatstick and one of very few infantry units in our codex that has access to dmg3 in melee, he let's you regenerate CP and he just straight up gives you one extra CP. I'd drop some of the venatari to include him, for me they never really earn their points back anyway.
Good looking list, unfortunately custode vehicles are really the only effective way we can play nowaday so you should do well
As Tiberias said above, the venatari are the weakest part of the list if you wanted to make changes.
They really suffer from losing Obsec and the proliferation of armour of contempt making them pretty ineffective.
Trajan would be a great add in, or another dread or some bikes.
I'd actually drop one of the Sags for a sisters bolter squad, throw in a flag, drop one of the Contemptors, and try and make points for a second telemon. A mono Telemon is just a walking target that gets sniped on turn 1 most times. 2 forces your opponent to play around them.
Thairne wrote: How.. is that relevant? We're talking about a codex that isnt out.
It could have an 70% WR for all we know.
Well for book that isn't out it's hardly relevant to start calling something unfair now then is it? So whole point complaining about their obsec is sooo irrelevant that if he wants to bring it up current WR is lot more relevant.
