Just for fun, math on 5 Hurricane Bikes at AP-1. Assuming no rerolls-to apply RR1s, multiply the end result by 7/6. Applies equally to both hits and wounds, for 49/36 if you get both.

I like Sagittarum but I think 1k Sons are the perfect foil to them with how they're built. Prosecutors and Vigilators would likely be much more cost effective, but you'll need a transport so the Vigilators aren't shot off the field.

I really am torn between missile bikes and HB bikes. HB just do too much work on our weaker points, where as Missile Bikes can just flat out do zilch for an entire possibly.

rubrics are bad target for sagg shooting as TS can give a squad -1d and then they gain +1sv against -1d.

Basically HB are useless into Tsons. The destructors should do work though, and in melee multiple units of Sagg guard should mulch Tsons.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
rubrics are bad target for sagg shooting as TS can give a squad -1d and then they gain +1sv against -1d.

Basically HB are useless into Tsons. The destructors should do work though, and in melee multiple units of Sagg guard should mulch Tsons.

I only took 2 squads of 3 and a squad of sword + shield just to get the battalion tax done (I wanted to try no Sisters). Jetbikes and Trajann did all the heavy lifting though.

Any reason why you wanted to avoid SoS? Ordinarily they are ideally suited to dealing with Psyker heavy armies.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Any reason why you wanted to avoid SoS? Ordinarily they are ideally suited to dealing with Psyker heavy armies.

Experimenting. My thought was that if I'm running Emperor's Chosen, the 4+++ means I don't really need them. So far, that appears to be accurate thinking but my sample size is small.

True, but -1 to -3 on Psyker tests is very handy to have since it helps prevent a super smite. The +1 to Wound vs Psykers has been very useful for me.

Yeah the witchseekers can really put some hurt on rubrics. Purgation strat means they wound on 2's vs the blue boys, and with ap-1 they are only saving on 3's.

5-10d6 hits wounding on 2's is a wiped rubric squad.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Yeah the witchseekers can really put some hurt on rubrics. Purgation strat means they wound on 2's vs the blue boys, and with ap-1 they are only saving on 3's.

5-10d6 hits wounding on 2's is a wiped rubric squad.

I'm quite sure that the purgation sweep strat only gives +1S to the flamers. So they wound on 3s against rubrics, which is still very decent.

no, str5 vs t4 is 3's with a +1 to wound so 2's.

Audustum wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Any reason why you wanted to avoid SoS? Ordinarily they are ideally suited to dealing with Psyker heavy armies.

Experimenting. My thought was that if I'm running Emperor's Chosen, the 4+++ means I don't really need them. So far, that appears to be accurate thinking but my sample size is small.

There are a lot of very impactful powers that don't do mortal wounds

 Eihnlazer wrote:
no, str5 vs t4 is 3's with a +1 to wound so 2's.

But where does the +1 to wound come from?

Edit: as far as I am aware, we only have three +1 to wound rules in the codex:

-Slayers of nightmares strat which only benefits custodes
-Bane of abominations for the Allarus Captain against monsters and vehicles.
-And the interceptor lances for the Vertus Praetors when they charge.

Sisters of Silence have a +1 to wound psychers and daemons all the time.

Pysker defense is mainly about shutting down mental interrogation. SoS with impregnable mind dude is our best way to do this, so I think it’s always worth running 1-2 Squads of prosecutors.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Sisters of Silence have a +1 to wound psychers and daemons all the time.

Right, silly me.

Tiberias wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Sisters of Silence have a +1 to wound psychers and daemons all the time.

Right, silly me.

But, do the Rubrics count as Psykers? Or only the Sorcerer leading the unit?

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
True, but -1 to -3 on Psyker tests is very handy to have since it helps prevent a super smite. The +1 to Wound vs Psykers has been very useful for me.

The odds of a super smite weren't crazy enough to really swing a game. The Jetbikes carry plenty of damage (I brought 10). Trajann did a surprising amount of work too (kill 6 Scarab Occult Terminators). I'm not saying SoS don't have uses though. I'm running them, lots of them, for sure if I'm not Emperor's Chosen. Chosen, I think, get more flexibility to do without.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

stratigo wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Any reason why you wanted to avoid SoS? Ordinarily they are ideally suited to dealing with Psyker heavy armies.

Experimenting. My thought was that if I'm running Emperor's Chosen, the 4+++ means I don't really need them. So far, that appears to be accurate thinking but my sample size is small.

There are a lot of very impactful powers that don't do mortal wounds

Not from what I've seen of the TSons matchup so far. Eldar it would be more of a concern as you want to stop Doom/Guide/Fortune/e.t.c., but with re-rolls and the limited range on the SoS debuff it might be a lost cause trying to shut those down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Salt donkey wrote:
Pysker defense is mainly about shutting down mental interrogation. SoS with impregnable mind dude is our best way to do this, so I think it’s always worth running 1-2 Squads of prosecutors.

Impregnable Mind makes it close to a coin flip as-is. I'm not entirely convinced we need SoS just to make mental interrogation's odds even worse.

I also have a 1k Sons army and focusing on Mortal Wounds is one way to play them but I'd argue not the best way and probably not the most common way to run them.

Having SoS (Vigilators or Witchseekers) around to make Presage, Twist of Fate, Temporal Surge or the Cult Power harder to pull off can significantly weaken a 1k Player's turn. Then there's the Deny Strat, Psyk Out Grenades and the fact that SoS can't even be targeted by Psychic powers.

 Lord Clinto wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Sisters of Silence have a +1 to wound psychers and daemons all the time.

Right, silly me.

But, do the Rubrics count as Psykers? Or only the Sorcerer leading the unit?

Any unit that carries the keyword counts-as. They have the Psyker Keyword.


I will say the biggest problems that psykers pose to us, the SoS have zero chance of actually affecting. That is stuff like Gate of Infinity, or Hammerhand, Warptime, Astral Aim, or Nullzone. Unless you are going heavy on sisters, there is no way for them to cover the board, and prevent unit buffing insanity like the GK or Eldar can do.

Hence, better to just take EC for the MW spam, and not bother about the rest. For instance:

What is the value in putting sisters in a list that's going up against Morty and the stinky boys? None. Morty is gonna get his buffs off, and the sisters will be useless for the majority of the game.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
I also have a 1k Sons army and focusing on Mortal Wounds is one way to play them but I'd argue not the best way and probably not the most common way to run them.

Having SoS (Vigilators or Witchseekers) around to make Presage, Twist of Fate, Temporal Surge or the Cult Power harder to pull off can significantly weaken a 1k Player's turn. Then there's the Deny Strat, Psyk Out Grenades and the fact that SoS can't even be targeted by Psychic powers.

I'm not saying they don't have uses, I'm just saying so far those aren't very necessary. The Sons had no real answer to the Jetbikes or even the one Achillus I brought along and you can just shut them down on primary scoring as a result. My aim is to build a TAC list so if I can cut a corner against psyker armies in order to free up space for tools into non-psyker armies then I'm very interested in cutting that corner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Sisters of Silence have a +1 to wound psychers and daemons all the time.

Right, silly me.

But, do the Rubrics count as Psykers? Or only the Sorcerer leading the unit?

Any unit that carries the keyword counts-as. They have the Psyker Keyword.


I will say the biggest problems that psykers pose to us, the SoS have zero chance of actually affecting. That is stuff like Gate of Infinity, or Hammerhand, Warptime, Astral Aim, or Nullzone. Unless you are going heavy on sisters, there is no way for them to cover the board, and prevent unit buffing insanity like the GK or Eldar can do.

Hence, better to just take EC for the MW spam, and not bother about the rest. For instance:

What is the value in putting sisters in a list that's going up against Morty and the stinky boys? None. Morty is gonna get his buffs off, and the sisters will be useless for the majority of the game.

These are good points. The most dangerous buff spells can generally be case outside of the SoS bubble range.

I mean SoS have their uses.
Prosecutors are cheap backfield objective holders that save you 75-90 pts.
Witchseekers have a surprising amount of flamers that can be boosted to S5. Stuffing 10 of those into a Rhino, shunting it up the board, especially on a shooting resistant objective, can be quite nice.
Vigilators... are... there, I guess? Don't know why anyone would ever take those...

Ah I see what you mean, yeah if you're focusing on TAC then SoS aren't a priority unless you're hurting for points.

I personally really love the models and have been enjoying seeing them finally playable side-by-side as Talons of the Emperor. Half of my regular opponents are Psyker heavy so they definitely earn their keep as well.

I'm not saying SoS are worthless. They have really tasty stats, cost, and designs. My point was that their intended purpose (Anti-Psyker) rarely if ever pays off. And their character wounding? For the cost of flamer sisters and a Rhio, I'd rather take a few bikes or terminators and get it done better.

This is the main problem with Sisters now. They are worse in 9th, because they are mostly irrelevant. All our units do their jobs better, in every phase except Psychic, and if you are playing to defeat psyker heavy lists, you are playing to beat about 5-10% of the lists out there.

Most Chaos armies use buffs and movement spells, or straight up summons.
Most Eldar use Buffs and movement.
Most Space Marines barely use Psychic, and if they do it's for buffs or movement.
Tau, Nids, and AM/IG mostly have psykers to get Psyker defense.
GSC uses it for buffs and movement.
Knights don't even use it.
Custodes don't have any.
SoB don't really do any.
Orks?
Squats?

What do sisters NOT help with? Defeating Buffs and movement spells.

Their only positive is that you can do 1 cheap troop slot. Of which is still better achieved through a single Custodian Guard squad. Their shooting sucks, and their "aura" is only -1, when most psyker characters already get a +1 built in).

Now I wish they had buffed the Aura to something actually effective, ala 24", or a stacking debuff on distance. -3=/< 8" or something.

 Thairne wrote:
I mean SoS have their uses.
Prosecutors are cheap backfield objective holders that save you 75-90 pts.
Witchseekers have a surprising amount of flamers that can be boosted to S5. Stuffing 10 of those into a Rhino, shunting it up the board, especially on a shooting resistant objective, can be quite nice.
Vigilators... are... there, I guess? Don't know why anyone would ever take those...

Yeah, they're still a nice, cheap resource. It's why I'm still labelling these as experiments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Ah I see what you mean, yeah if you're focusing on TAC then SoS aren't a priority unless you're hurting for points.

I personally really love the models and have been enjoying seeing them finally playable side-by-side as Talons of the Emperor. Half of my regular opponents are Psyker heavy so they definitely earn their keep as well.

I also really love the models. I even did a kitbash Culexus using Jenetia Krole's FW model as a base to have her be boss of the Sisters when I use them.

Oh I didn't know FW made a Jenetia Krole model, looks terrific! I've been enjoying Aleya so far, the Wound reroll has been helpful on large units but it's tough since the Silent Judge trait is so powerful and the Knight Centura model can take that while also being less points.

I agree that sisters fall a bit flat for me. They are nice to have because they are a cheap option for slot filling but other than that they are just worse that actual custodes for the pts.

It really comes down to them not actually being effective ani psyker defence, if they did that job well then they would be viable.

The -1 at only 18" is pretty pointless as the opponent chooses if they want to be in the aura, add to that most psykic powers are buffs so the not being targeted is rarely useful. I think they should have got some ability to actually deny powers that are targeted near them, that would have made them relevant. As it is our best psy defence is a custode warlord trait.

fair points, but I really dont agree. Thing is, if you only buy back line procs they dont do anything until they die. but if you can find a reason to throw them up they board, they get really nasty.

They have the aura deny you are mentioning through a strat.its a 4+. they can give all enemy units -1 to hit in melee in a 6inch bubble too for just one cp. that is actually completely nuts. They can get plusses to wound, and the -1 to cast is super good, Imo. especially if your center vex has the plus 1 deny. I controlled the psychic phase completely vs. orks the other day with a 7 man witch hunter harassing unit and an impregnable mind vex.

to me, the answer to make them relevant has been that witch hunter unit. as mentioned before, they are probably sub par at the end of the day. they crumble to any type of fire basically. But at least, they are super hard to charge and you basically want your opponent to shoot at them over anything else you have on the board. so they should just be in his face all the time. with the +1s strat they tear through a lot of weaker stuff. even marines. its crazy. They fit nicely as that third fast attack slot next to my 2x3 bikes and they have earned their points back both times I've brought them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, running them in sevens is just so brilliant. the 3+ means that if you can get them into light cover or put -1 on them through dense your opponent actually has to put some pain into them. he can't just shoot at them with 5 intercessors. they won't die. so if they are (as they should be and typically are) in a table edge scoring engage or something similar or sitting on an objective, they need to be cleared completely to not serve their purpose. a 7man squad is so much better than a 5 man in that regard. But most importantly, 7 d6 s5 ap1 autohits is just straight up brutal. I mean.. think about it. thats 27 hits on average. from a unit that costs 98 points.

but what it really gives me is flexibility. I have a tendency to play a bit too aggressively with the bikes, but when these gals are suddenly up the board too t 1/2 my opponent has to make choices. yeah, he should probably ignore the girls to shoot at the bikes. but they transhuman and auspice and then you kill one maybe two. Next turn the witch hunters clear that back objective held by 10 pox walkers/guardsmen/5marines/a mek gun etc etc.

All right in defense of prosecutors (I don’t think the other sos options are good enough tbh) I have a few things.

1) All if you are underrating mental integration. While having a CP re-roll and against no defense a basic opposing pysker has a 99.3% to score 3 VPs just by being 24’ from one of our characters. We have a better than 50% of stopping a basic psyker with our deny guy, but that inverts against anyone with bonuses. Combine that with the occasional moments our dude isn’t in range to deny this, means savy opponents with more potent psykers can still get a likely 9-12 points from it even against the warlord trait. I’d like to drop this number down with the 4+ deny strat and minuses from SoS.

2) prosecutors are competing with guardians/sagitarium. These are both tax units that are too expensed to just sit on objective, but worse than the rest of our stuff at actually accomplishing anything. I’d much rather spend less points on a pure action/ space holder unit, vs an in-between mediocre unit. Even just having the option for a space holding unit was luxury we didn’t use to have.

Played a game against new Tau last night, 50 PL

Their list (as best as I can remember)

Etherial with shield drones
Shaper
2 x 10 kroot
10 breachers
10 pathfinders
2 krootox
1 great knarloc
1 stealth suit team
1 ghostkeel
Playing the sept that lets auxillary units use Tau buffs

My list:
shield captain yeetus
3 x 1 allarus
Vexilla praetor
Eversor assassin
2 x 3 Sagittarum
1 x 3 venatari

His first game as Tau, second game this edition.
His list is, what anyone in the Tau community would call, total gak.

And he put the whopping on me.

I won 50-35 on points but I was almost completely tabled. D3 rail rifles are really strong against us, breachers trade up really. Even the kroot, through layers of buffs, are hitting against my invul saves. I took maybe 5 actual armor saves that game. It just felt like even the shittiest Tau units were kitted out to punish custodes.

I can't even imagine what it would have looked like if we both took competitive lists.

Anyone have any solid advise for facing the fish men?

Mad_Proctologist wrote:
Played a game against new Tau last night, 50 PL

Their list (as best as I can remember)

Etherial with shield drones
Shaper
2 x 10 kroot
10 breachers
10 pathfinders
2 krootox
1 great knarloc
1 stealth suit team
1 ghostkeel
Playing the sept that lets auxillary units use Tau buffs

My list:
shield captain yeetus
3 x 1 allarus
Vexilla praetor
Eversor assassin
2 x 3 Sagittarum
1 x 3 venatari

His first game as Tau, second game this edition.
His list is, what anyone in the Tau community would call, total gak.

And he put the whopping on me.

I won 50-35 on points but I was almost completely tabled. D3 rail rifles are really strong against us, breachers trade up really. Even the kroot, through layers of buffs, are hitting against my invul saves. I took maybe 5 actual armor saves that game. It just felt like even the shittiest Tau units were kitted out to punish custodes.

I can't even imagine what it would have looked like if we both took competitive lists.

Anyone have any solid advise for facing the fish men?

A couple of things. First power-level isn’t really competitively balanced. Second; you’re playing low amounts of models at 50 PL. Once again the game isn’t as balanced at smaller size. Put those together and your game is far from competitive 40k even before lists.

That said I think your game will be a micro/comso of how our matchup with Tau will be like. They will kills us, we will outscore them early. Who wins just depends on how quickly they kill us and how much of a points lead we can get early.

Which benefit did you choose for the Vexilla? If the Tau were relying heavily on Cover you could take the Fulminaris Agressor with it. You may also want to skip it just to have more PL available.

Been trying to actually build and run my bike list. Here's what I have, unpainted, right now.

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [99 PL, 1,995pts, 12CP] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

Detachment Type / Shield Host: Adeptus Custodes, Shadowkeepers

+ HQ +

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 165pts, -1CP]: (Shadowkeepers): Lockwarden, Auric Aquilas, Misericordia, Salvo Launcher, Stratagem: The Emperor's Heroes

Trajann Valoris [9 PL, 160pts, 1CP]

+ Troops +

Custodian Guard Squad [7 PL, 135pts]
. 3x Custodian w/ Guardian Spear & Misericordia: 3x Guardian Spear, 3x Misericordia

Custodian Guard Squad [7 PL, 135pts]
. 3x Custodian w/ Guardian Spear & Misericordia: 3x Guardian Spear, 3x Misericordia

Custodian Guard Squad [7 PL, 150pts]
. 3x Custodian w/ Sentinel Blade & Praesidium Shield: 3x Praesidium Shield, 3x Sentinel Blade

+ Fast Attack +

Vertus Praetors [20 PL, 425pts]
. 5x Praetor w/ Salvo Launcher & Misericordia: 5x Interceptor Lance, 5x Misericordia, 5x Salvo Launcher

Vertus Praetors [20 PL, 425pts]
. 5x Praetor w/ Salvo Launcher & Misericordia: 5x Interceptor Lance, 5x Misericordia, 5x Salvo Launcher

Vertus Praetors [20 PL, 400pts]
. 5x Praetor w/ Hurricane Bolter & Misericordia: 5x Hurricane Bolter, 5x Interceptor Lance, 5x Misericordia

++ Total: [99 PL, 12CP, 1,995pts] ++


Very weak on the horde game, and the psyker game. But hopefully if I play it correctly, nothing will be alive after turn 3 anyway.

I have only read the first 5 pages so apologies if this has already been mentioned.
In the first 5 pages many people mentioned the Salvo Launchers as go-to anti tank. However, if you consider the hurricane bolter option instead and give these hurricanes All Seeing Anihilator from a bike captain and use the strat to give them Redax stance 1 whenever they need it (plus to take ASA they must be Dread Host, so gain the -1ap), then the Math hammer shows that the hurricanes are almost as good as the Salvo Launchers against most T7/8 and better against T7/8 that have invulns.

Below is the the Mathhammer on average wounds caused by both. The first value is for 3 Salvo Launchers rerolling hits due to a bike captain. The second is from 3 Hurricanes, rerolling hits, and given ASA and Redax Stance 1. Worth noting that since you are looking at far more dice for the hurricanes, they will be less swingy:

T8 3+
7.29
6.42

T8 3+ 5++
4.86
6.42

T8 2+
6.07
4.28

T7 3+
9.72
9.33

T7 3+ 5++
6.48
9.33

T7 2+
8.10
6.22

As you can see, the SLs are noticeably better against 2+, whilst the HBs are noticeably better against invulns. The SLs are slightly better against 3+ with no invulnerable.
The HBs will also have the ability to gut troops unlike the SLs.

However, unless running Rendax Stance 1 that turn, it will cost a CP and it will require you to run Dread Host.

I think for the versatility (and cheaper cost) HBs are definitely worth a look in for (surprisingly) Tank/MC Hunting (if taking Dread Host).

Edit: None of this takes into account the -1D units which would put the HBs ahead in everything that is not a 2+ and only very slightly behind on the 2+.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Been trying to actually build and run my bike list. Here's what I have, unpainted, right now.

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [99 PL, 1,995pts, 12CP] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

Detachment Type / Shield Host: Adeptus Custodes, Shadowkeepers

+ HQ +

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 165pts, -1CP]: (Shadowkeepers): Lockwarden, Auric Aquilas, Misericordia, Salvo Launcher, Stratagem: The Emperor's Heroes

Trajann Valoris [9 PL, 160pts, 1CP]

+ Troops +

Custodian Guard Squad [7 PL, 135pts]
. 3x Custodian w/ Guardian Spear & Misericordia: 3x Guardian Spear, 3x Misericordia

Custodian Guard Squad [7 PL, 135pts]
. 3x Custodian w/ Guardian Spear & Misericordia: 3x Guardian Spear, 3x Misericordia

Custodian Guard Squad [7 PL, 150pts]
. 3x Custodian w/ Sentinel Blade & Praesidium Shield: 3x Praesidium Shield, 3x Sentinel Blade

+ Fast Attack +

Vertus Praetors [20 PL, 425pts]
. 5x Praetor w/ Salvo Launcher & Misericordia: 5x Interceptor Lance, 5x Misericordia, 5x Salvo Launcher

Vertus Praetors [20 PL, 425pts]
. 5x Praetor w/ Salvo Launcher & Misericordia: 5x Interceptor Lance, 5x Misericordia, 5x Salvo Launcher

Vertus Praetors [20 PL, 400pts]
. 5x Praetor w/ Hurricane Bolter & Misericordia: 5x Hurricane Bolter, 5x Interceptor Lance, 5x Misericordia

++ Total: [99 PL, 12CP, 1,995pts] ++


Very weak on the horde game, and the psyker game. But hopefully if I play it correctly, nothing will be alive after turn 3 anyway.

I like it. If hordes are Huge in your meta, you Can go 2x hurricane but i Think youre good as is.

Salt donkey wrote:


A couple of things. First power-level isn’t really competitively balanced. Second; you’re playing low amounts of models at 50 PL. Once again the game isn’t as balanced at smaller size. Put those together and your game is far from competitive 40k even before lists.

That said I think your game will be a micro/comso of how our matchup with Tau will be like. They will kills us, we will outscore them early. Who wins just depends on how quickly they kill us and how much of a points lead we can get early.

I realize neither of us were playing optimized or competitive lists, but my list was a solid B-rate custodes ~1k and his was solidly D-tier tau and the whole things was a uphill battle that I only won because I have a lot more experience in 9th than my opponent. It just feels bad that Tau can play whatever they want and even a noob will do okay.

Mad_Proctologist wrote:

Salt donkey wrote:


A couple of things. First power-level isn’t really competitively balanced. Second; you’re playing low amounts of models at 50 PL. Once again the game isn’t as balanced at smaller size. Put those together and your game is far from competitive 40k even before lists.

That said I think your game will be a micro/comso of how our matchup with Tau will be like. They will kills us, we will outscore them early. Who wins just depends on how quickly they kill us and how much of a points lead we can get early.

I realize neither of us were playing optimized or competitive lists, but my list was a solid B-rate custodes ~1k and his was solidly D-tier tau and the whole things was a uphill battle that I only won because I have a lot more experience in 9th than my opponent. It just feels bad that Tau can play whatever they want and even a noob will do okay.

So PL is literally play whatever you want as options, the only thing that costs you are the models. Tau have a zillion options they can take. We have very few, like 3. Swords, Spears, and Axes. With a free dagger that is no longer really an option. It's like saying a game against space marines in PL is unfair because they can take everything. That's literally their design style. Good at everything, master of nothing. That being said,

If you are having an uphill battle against a faction with zero melee, you may need to have a look at your tactics. The key to destroying tau is still, as it has always been, get into melee. We have a great way of doing that.

its worth pointing out that the PL/points ratio of a unit can vary quite a lot, so its quite possible to have a "balanced" PL game where the points values of the units on the table is quite different. (for example, a min size squad of rubric marines is PL 6, but could be anything between 105 and 149 points), so thier might be either "Hidden" efficiencies in his list or deficiencies in yours that might skew the result somewhat (naturally the bigger the game, the closer the PL and Points values tend to end up, so it might be more pronounced at lower PL).

Generally speaking, if a unit can purchase alot of wargear options, it will be stronger playing PL. If i cannot purchase any wargear, its stronger in points play.

Seeing as how all our wargear is either free or basically nothing (5-15pts) unless you get into the big models, I can see how PL would have a negative effect against Custodes. Whereas Spacemarines would get a ton of value out of it. I think Tau can fit in that mold also.

the only units we have that benefit from PL are Aquilon terminators and Achilles Dreadnoughts.

Agamatus too, but those are poo poo bad atm cause GW forgot to update their wounds characteristic.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
the only units we have that benefit from PL are Aquilon terminators and Achilles Dreadnoughts.

Agamatus too, but those are poo poo bad atm cause GW forgot to update their wounds characteristic.

Excellent points.

Unfortunately, GW has too much corporate correctness going on (i.e. not admitting mistakes), so our best hope is to wait for the 10th edition update of the FW book. Not for free, mind you.

So, Custodes claimed 6 of the top 10 at the Beachhead Brawl Major, with the Tau claiming the #1 and #2 spots.

My BCP is perpetually busted, so I can never get it to work. Any common trends to see in those lists?

Had a match against Dark Eldar last weekend.

Army - 2000pts Shadowkeepers

Photos

General thoughts and observations:
-My opponent brings a versatile list of Dark Eldar every time we play. The last time we played he had his 9th Codex while I was still using my 8th and thanks to my durability and objective game won handily. This time not so much.
-Dark Eldar are another army with a large amount of high Strength/AP weapons so I spent most of the game on my 4++ Invul except for poison weapons
-Round 2 was a bloodbath, Tanglefoot grenade rolled a measly -1" to the charge and Drazhar and a swarm of Incubi descended on my Guard Squads, Vexilla and Valerian. Shadowkeepers -1 Attacks helped soften the blow but Hitting on 2s and Wounding on 2s meant most of my troops did not survive. I had also already used Arcane Genetic Alchemy on my western flank earlier that phase to ensure I kept the objective. The game was decided by this point but we played out the rest for a fun Saturday afternoon.
-Indomitable Engines came in handy when my opponents Talos dished out 6 MW on one attack. I need to make use of "Wisdom of the Moritoi" on my Dreads more often.
-I really enjoyed running Aleya with the Vigilators. Certainly not optimal but high volume of S5 AP-3 & Reroll 1s to Wound was a serious threat towards the T5 vehicles my opponent was fielding. While I love the Vigilator models the Witchseekers appear to be much better for a TAC list.
-Master of Martial Strategy has gotten me back no less than 3CP in every game I've played so far. Very handy, can't imagine running an army without it.

We have a rematch next week. I think I'll play more conservatively to make it harder for him to pull off his charges. I may swap out the Imperial Agent to bring a swarm of Prosecutors. We shall see!

 iGuy91 wrote:
So, Custodes claimed 6 of the top 10 at the Beachhead Brawl Major, with the Tau claiming the #1 and #2 spots.

My BCP is perpetually busted, so I can never get it to work. Any common trends to see in those lists?

Skimmed through the lists a few days ago, they were mostly EC, but only similar in the basics: Trajann, PP Cap, Bike Cap, 5 Prosecutors, 3 Shields, 1-2 Allarus solo units, 2-3 bikes. The rest was mixed, someone brought more bikes, sags, other brought double telemon, others FW contemptors etc.

I think we need a FAQ to quell the idiocy that is "NERF THE PP!" so that it's at least played correctly, I think Trajann needs a points buff, and I think Bikes and Termies need a slight points nerf, maybe 5 points each. I don't think anyone can argue Trajann at this point. But our points can easily be argued. I feel like this is the first time since 8th that I've had fun with my list building. I can depend on all my units to do their jobs well for the cost. We aren't Tau or DE broken, but we are very good.

I wish there was a sabermetric style of breakdown by player. Were the top 6 Custodes lists played by noobs or MVPs? Were the Tau actually broken or did the dice roll hot? See, W/Ls are crap if we don't know why they won or lost. I don't think a bad custodes player with good rolls, can beat a good space marine player with average rolls.

I do think a bad Tau or DE player with good rolls can beat a good Custodes player with average rolls.

Now that the new Codex is out in the wild, what are everyone's thoughts on the loadout to give Custodian Guard? Guardian spears vs. Sword and board?

They both have the 4+ invuln now, so maybe the shield is less useful than it used to be, but the 1+ save sure is nice to have. The spear hits harder in melee and has longer reach vs shooting, but the sword has the Pistol trait and can be fired in melee.

I'm just so torn! Help a battle brother out?

 Sketch201 wrote:
Now that the new Codex is out in the wild, what are everyone's thoughts on the loadout to give Custodian Guard? Guardian spears vs. Sword and board?

They both have the 4+ invuln now, so maybe the shield is less useful than it used to be, but the 1+ save sure is nice to have. The spear hits harder in melee and has longer reach vs shooting, but the sword has the Pistol trait and can be fired in melee.

I'm just so torn! Help a battle brother out?

I'm thinking a squad of both makes a lot of sense. 1 shield, 2 spear is 140 points, and works well, can use the shield to soak high ROF shots, and fights decently vs monsters and vehicles
x3 Shield is a good squad to go to midfield and brawl.

 Sketch201 wrote:
Now that the new Codex is out in the wild, what are everyone's thoughts on the loadout to give Custodian Guard? Guardian spears vs. Sword and board?

They both have the 4+ invuln now, so maybe the shield is less useful than it used to be, but the 1+ save sure is nice to have. The spear hits harder in melee and has longer reach vs shooting, but the sword has the Pistol trait and can be fired in melee.

I'm just so torn! Help a battle brother out?

If you want the competitive perspective, I believe the answer is sword+board or Saggitarum.

Has anyone actually used Sags competitively? Auspex Tactics have listed as B tier to the Spears A Tier.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Has anyone actually used Sags competitively? Auspex Tactics have listed as B tier to the Spears A Tier.

I wouldn't take Auspex Tactics as law, as he, by his admission, does it purely on theorycrafting/math-hammer, never experience.

Sagittarum have been excellent in my personal experience, as they contribute almost all game, giving them added value not captured by pure math-hammer.

 Sketch201 wrote:
Now that the new Codex is out in the wild, what are everyone's thoughts on the loadout to give Custodian Guard? Guardian spears vs. Sword and board?

They both have the 4+ invuln now, so maybe the shield is less useful than it used to be, but the 1+ save sure is nice to have. The spear hits harder in melee and has longer reach vs shooting, but the sword has the Pistol trait and can be fired in melee.

I'm just so torn! Help a battle brother out?

The 1+ is great when dealing with AP-1 or AP-2, you can also use the Vexilus Praetor and the Cover banner to further boost your Armor Save. That said if you regularly play an army that has lots of AP-3 or AP-4 weaponry then the Shield doesn't do a whole lot since you'll still spend a lot of the game on your 4++ Invul. S7 on the Spears can be quite nice when playing against armies that have lots of T6 & T7. You can always mix-and-match your squads to test them out. If you're concerned about range though try out some Sagittarum.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Has anyone actually used Sags competitively? Auspex Tactics have listed as B tier to the Spears A Tier.

Vincent Chandler took 4th at Beachhead Brawl with Sags and sword and board.

Treynor Wolf took 1st at NorCal open with just Sags and a Prosecutor squad.

Brady Tateo took 1st at CaptainCon with just Sags.

Just to give sine examples.

 Sketch201 wrote:
Now that the new Codex is out in the wild, what are everyone's thoughts on the loadout to give Custodian Guard? Guardian spears vs. Sword and board?

They both have the 4+ invuln now, so maybe the shield is less useful than it used to be, but the 1+ save sure is nice to have. The spear hits harder in melee and has longer reach vs shooting, but the sword has the Pistol trait and can be fired in melee.

I'm just so torn! Help a battle brother out?

Maybe I'm just resilient to change, but I still roll with sword n board. The 1+ is incredible, and the improved blade profile means that they hit just enough. Ofc spears are better offensively, but do you need them? Do you not have enough hitters as is? I frequently swarm the midboard with wardens and shields, and with the -1 to hit strat of the latters, I hit like a hammer and take like an anvil.

Wait, how do you get the +1 from the flag and ALSO the +1 from the shield? I thought you can't stack saves beyond 1? Or is that just "to hit" modifiers?

Just hit and wound.
You can always get a 0+ save, but the 1 will always fail and ap modifiers never were capped - otherwise AP -2 wouldn't make sense

 Thairne wrote:
Just hit and wound.
You can always get a 0+ save, but the 1 will always fail and ap modifiers never were capped - otherwise AP -2 wouldn't make sense

This.

If you want to get technical, it's a 2+ save on 1d6+2 (minus AP mods) since an ACTUAL 1+ or 0+ save is an unmodifiable 2+ armor save, but the 1+ or 0+ works as shorthand.

Fun fact! You can get Bullgryns to save better than Custode, including a 5+ against a Hammerhead's Railgun.

That Bullgryn has just won the game if the opponent is wasting hammerhead shots on a squad of elite infantry. Just saying.

 Thairne wrote:
Just hit and wound.
You can always get a 0+ save, but the 1 will always fail and ap modifiers never were capped - otherwise AP -2 wouldn't make sense

Short answer, yes, the light cover will stack with the bonus to the armor from a Custodian Guard Shield.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
Just hit and wound.
You can always get a 0+ save, but the 1 will always fail and ap modifiers never were capped - otherwise AP -2 wouldn't make sense

This.

If you want to get technical, it's a 2+ save on 1d6+2 (minus AP mods) since an ACTUAL 1+ or 0+ save is an unmodifiable 2+ armor save, but the 1+ or 0+ works as shorthand.

Fun fact! You can get Bullgryns to save better than Custode, including a 5+ against a Hammerhead's Railgun.

Spoiler:

4+ save base.
+2 from a Slab Shield.
+1 from Light Cover.
+1 from Take Cover! (Guard stratagem)
+1 from Psychic Barrier.
Ending save of -1+, or AP-8 needed to negate fully.

I'm picturing this situation in my mind, a high-powered magnetically-accelerated projectile flying at like Mach 50 toward a giant mutant ogre-man and bouncing off of what is basically a fancy piece of metal he's holding up. And he says, "Hurr, is dat all you got?"

KGYM wrote:

 Sketch201 wrote:
Now that the new Codex is out in the wild, what are everyone's thoughts on the loadout to give Custodian Guard? Guardian spears vs. Sword and board?

They both have the 4+ invuln now, so maybe the shield is less useful than it used to be, but the 1+ save sure is nice to have. The spear hits harder in melee and has longer reach vs shooting, but the sword has the Pistol trait and can be fired in melee.

I'm just so torn! Help a battle brother out?

Maybe I'm just resilient to change, but I still roll with sword n board. The 1+ is incredible, and the improved blade profile means that they hit just enough. Ofc spears are better offensively, but do you need them? Do you not have enough hitters as is? I frequently swarm the midboard with wardens and shields, and with the -1 to hit strat of the latters, I hit like a hammer and take like an anvil.

Mate, what Is the -1 to hit strat? omg. have I missed something key?

I have yet to get the codex. Hi Ust to confirm, there is still no way to put two relics on the same character, right?

Scoundrel80 wrote:

KGYM wrote:

 Sketch201 wrote:
Now that the new Codex is out in the wild, what are everyone's thoughts on the loadout to give Custodian Guard? Guardian spears vs. Sword and board?

They both have the 4+ invuln now, so maybe the shield is less useful than it used to be, but the 1+ save sure is nice to have. The spear hits harder in melee and has longer reach vs shooting, but the sword has the Pistol trait and can be fired in melee.

I'm just so torn! Help a battle brother out?

Maybe I'm just resilient to change, but I still roll with sword n board. The 1+ is incredible, and the improved blade profile means that they hit just enough. Ofc spears are better offensively, but do you need them? Do you not have enough hitters as is? I frequently swarm the midboard with wardens and shields, and with the -1 to hit strat of the latters, I hit like a hammer and take like an anvil.

Mate, what Is the -1 to hit strat? omg. have I missed something key?

Praesidium Shield Wall.
-1 to hit in Melee if all your models are equipped with said shields

Thanks for all the input everyone, I think I'll be going with two mixed squads of 2 spears and 1 shield each, and one squad of all shields. Does that sound like a good loadout?

The rest of the list is 3 Heroes (Trajann, Allarrus Captain, and a bike captain), Allarus termies, 6 bikes, and a Contemptor.

I'm trying to stay within the main codex for now, and I'll branch out into Forgeworld stuff later ( The Sagitarum look AWESOME! )

Not really worth dropping CP on a unit that is mostly impervious to everything other than AT fire though.

 Thairne wrote:

Scoundrel80 wrote:

KGYM wrote:

 Sketch201 wrote:
Now that the new Codex is out in the wild, what are everyone's thoughts on the loadout to give Custodian Guard? Guardian spears vs. Sword and board?

They both have the 4+ invuln now, so maybe the shield is less useful than it used to be, but the 1+ save sure is nice to have. The spear hits harder in melee and has longer reach vs shooting, but the sword has the Pistol trait and can be fired in melee.

I'm just so torn! Help a battle brother out?

Maybe I'm just resilient to change, but I still roll with sword n board. The 1+ is incredible, and the improved blade profile means that they hit just enough. Ofc spears are better offensively, but do you need them? Do you not have enough hitters as is? I frequently swarm the midboard with wardens and shields, and with the -1 to hit strat of the latters, I hit like a hammer and take like an anvil.

Mate, what Is the -1 to hit strat? omg. have I missed something key?

Praesidium Shield Wall.
-1 to hit in Melee if all your models are equipped with said shields

Ah, yeah. I thought of shooting. I use that one all the time. I must say, though. I feel once they get to melee, things are pretty good no matter how guards are kitted out. getting them shot off the board is the big thing. I've experimented with dense and light banners and have even considered running both. or 3 even. the light cover one is just so amazing.

Yeah I'd say three squads of Custodian Guard, two mixed and one all sword & board will be a fine place to start. After playing a few games you'll get a feel for when you need Spears and when the Swords will do just fine. I personally love the Sword and Board models so that's what I run.

Don't forget to make the most of Arcane Genetic Alchemy, Emperor's Auspice, and Tanglefoot Grenades as your key stratagems when getting used to 9th.

I just can't get rid of the thought of running 2x light banners for +2 armor save and at dense one for -1 shooting.

hmm.. or actually, i dont think the light banner bonus stacks? I mean, it doesn't say +1 armor save, it says benefits of light cover. I guesss you can only have that once?

Scoundrel80 wrote:
I just can't get rid of the thought of running 2x light banners for +2 armor save and at dense one for -1 shooting.

hmm.. or actually, i dont think the light banner bonus stacks? I mean, it doesn't say +1 armor save, it says benefits of light cover. I guesss you can only have that once?

Only once.

Also, even if it was just +1 to armor saves, it wouldn't stack, because it's the same ability.

Keep in mind as more codexes get updated to 9th there are more units that can ignore "-1 to Hit" or have Ignore Cover abilities which will nullify your Vexilla.

Two Vexilus Praetors can be useful if you plan on marching a host of guard squads up the board but you'll run into challenges if the mid-field objectives are spread far apart. On a large battlefield you may want to consider running two with one on each flank, then deciding whether the -1 Hit or +1 Armor Save is best depending on the opponent.

In that case, you might want to also look at more Terminators.
While bikes are fast, Terminators can be there instantly.

if you activate stance 2 of the calistus katah the telemons bolt launcher has 10 shots even after an advance, right?

Scoundrel80 wrote:
if you activate stance 2 of the calistus katah the telemons bolt launcher has 10 shots even after an advance, right?

The dreadnoughts can't do Karate, so no unfortunately.

duh, I totally knew that. thanks for reactivating my brain..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
one more thing, could some of you tell me how you guys are using the plate cap? is he as good as we thought? what role does he fill and what are the best builds of him? im building a list, where I can't afford the bike cap..

He's essentially Auto-take currently. If we get FAQ Nerfed in the coming weeks/months because of people whinging about how game breaking it is, it'll be what it is at that point. But right now, without too much arguing, it's likely one of the best Relics in the game, period.

Scoundrel80 wrote:
duh, I totally knew that. thanks for reactivating my brain..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
one more thing, could some of you tell me how you guys are using the plate cap? is he as good as we thought? what role does he fill and what are the best builds of him? im building a list, where I can't afford the bike cap..

Well, the most obvious use would be to use him when one of you units get charged. This is good because it does not matter where the captain currently is in the field. But remember that you can use the teleport shunt even if none of your units got charged. If there is an enemy unit within 4" of one of your units in your opponents charge phase, the plate captain can teleport shunt into that enemy unit. This is why he's often played with the impregnable mind Wl trait because if your opponent is not careful, there's going to be a really tough character that counts as 4 obsec models right in their face.

Scoundrel80 wrote:
duh, I totally knew that. thanks for reactivating my brain..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
one more thing, could some of you tell me how you guys are using the plate cap? is he as good as we thought? what role does he fill and what are the best builds of him? im building a list, where I can't afford the bike cap..

As per usual, I can just kind of give the competitive perspective.

He's considered perfectly valid pick. A list will not be made top tier competitive by his inclusion or exclusion but it won't lose that status because of it either. Some take him, some don't. It's an open question whether you can just sub him for a Vexilla with the same relic without losing effectiveness.

but how does it work? why is he allowed to fight? when exactly can he pile in to enemy units, is it considered a heroic intervention? I guess, he fights after chargers, but what is the exact timing? Also, are there some shenanigans you can make with his big base blocking oenemy units from reaching their intended target.. nah prolly not as this happens AFTER charges, I guess. What are typical shenans with this guy. He can't go anywhere on his own, right? you always need a friendly unit to shunt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, if the opponent didn't declare him as the target of the charge.. then how can they fight him? omg. my mind just got blown. He is not immune to getting fought that turn, right?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
no. sorry. brain fart. if he intervenes, I guess he can be fought as per usual. I must say, though, I see a lot of weird interactions popping up. Those fight phase micromanaging things are super dense.

Scoundrel80 wrote:
but how does it work? why is he allowed to fight? when exactly can he pile in to enemy units, is it considered a heroic intervention? I guess, he fights after chargers, but what is the exact timing? Also, are there some shenanigans you can make with his big base blocking oenemy units from reaching their intended target.. nah prolly not as this happens AFTER charges, I guess. What are typical shenans with this guy. He can't go anywhere on his own, right? you always need a friendly unit to shunt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, if the opponent didn't declare him as the target of the charge.. then how can they fight him? omg. my mind just got blown. He is not immune to getting fought that turn, right?

https://www.goonhammer.com/ruleshammer-heroic-intervention-always-fight-first-and-fight-again-abilities/

yeah, so you can actually use him to hinder enemy movement. If he bases some models, they won't be able to pile in afterwards. Also, he could pop up, make his 3 inch move and block models from piling in where they wanted to because they now have to go around him for example? this happens after all charge moves have been completed. He then intervenes, and THEN the charger choses where to fight in the charge-fighting sequence and makes his pile in moves, right? so this 40mm base popping in could mess his plans up quite much. or am I getting it wrong. its just an HI, right?

Scoundrel80 wrote:
yeah, so you can actually use him to hinder enemy movement. If he bases some models, they won't be able to pile in afterwards. Also, he could pop up, make his 3 inch move and block models from piling in where they wanted to because they now have to go around him for example? this happens after all charge moves have been completed. He then intervenes, and THEN the charger choses where to fight in the charge-fighting sequence and makes his pile in moves, right? so this 40mm base popping in could mess his plans up quite much. or am I getting it wrong. its just an HI, right?

The teleport-shunt was very likely meant to count as a heroic intervention, but rules as written it is not a HI...so technically the plate captain can not be targeted in the fight phase. This is very likely going to be FAQd.

So if he doesn't charge and he doesn't count as intervening (with the current wording), he just simply is allowed to fight because you can always fight in the fight phase during the "non chargers fight"-sequence if you end up in within engagement range with a model, or what?

Scoundrel80 wrote:
So if he doesn't charge and he doesn't count as intervening (with the current wording), he just simply is allowed to fight because you can always fight in the fight phase during the "non chargers fight"-sequence if you end up in within engagement range with a model, or what?

Yes. But like I said, as soon as there's an FAQ up for our codex, the teleport-shunt from the praerorian plate is very likely going to officially count as a heroic intervention. LVO already house ruled it as a heroic intervention.

sorry for spamming, Tiberias, but what difference would that make game-mechanic-wise?

Scoundrel80 wrote:
sorry for spamming, Tiberias, but what difference would that make game-mechanic-wise?

The main difference would be that the plate captain can be attacked by the unit he shunts into if the shunt officially counts as a heroic intervention.

So im stumped, i have no clue how to beat triple stormsurge.

In fact i'd go so far as to say you cannot beat triple stormsurge no matter what you take.

They are severely undercosted (about 75pts too cheap).

They are cheaper than an ares/knight, more durable (because in-built 4++), 2-3x better at range, all at the cost of having a bad melee profile and subpar movement (which is offset buy Mont'ka letting them advance and fire).

 Eihnlazer wrote:
So im stumped, i have no clue how to beat triple stormsurge.

In fact i'd go so far as to say you cannot beat triple stormsurge no matter what you take.

They are severely undercosted (about 75pts too cheap).

They are cheaper than an ares/knight, more durable (because in-built 4++), 2-3x better at range, all at the cost of having a bad melee profile and subpar movement (which is offset buy Mont'ka letting them advance and fire).

Only thing that I can think of would be abusing LOS blocking cover until you can get them into melee. But that is a dicey proposition for sure.
Also....3 stormsurge is nearly 1k points by itself? They should be so thin on the ground, that could attacked to make sure the stormsurge must stay on objectives to actually win.

 iGuy91 wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
So im stumped, i have no clue how to beat triple stormsurge.

In fact i'd go so far as to say you cannot beat triple stormsurge no matter what you take.

They are severely undercosted (about 75pts too cheap).

They are cheaper than an ares/knight, more durable (because in-built 4++), 2-3x better at range, all at the cost of having a bad melee profile and subpar movement (which is offset buy Mont'ka letting them advance and fire).

Only thing that I can think of would be abusing LOS blocking cover until you can get them into melee. But that is a dicey proposition for sure.
Also....3 stormsurge is nearly 1k points by itself? They should be so thin on the ground, that could attacked to make sure the stormsurge must stay on objectives to actually win.

This is similar to my thoughts too. Kill everything BUT the Stormsurges and try to outscore. If you take Wardens you can abuse bodyguard too by putting the Wardens out of line of sight and a character on the objective. For that objective, Tau won't have an6 valid targets to shoot.

Another outing trying to make the most of Valerian and Aleya. Rematch against Dark Eldar doing the same mission and setup.

Army

Photos and Commentary


General thoughts and observations
I'm starting to warm up to Valerian, the permanent Transhuman, reroll 1 save per round makes him a rather sturdy HQ choice. Gnosis ignoring FnP is a nice trick as well. That said we already have so many good options, but I rather enjoy running him with Aleya to fit the story.

This game I tried to max out my Sisters to make the most of Aleya's reroll Wounds aura. My opponent didn't want his venoms carved up by Vigilators again so they were shot down or torn up by a Succubus before they had a chance to act. The prosecutors on the other hand wiped out close to 20 Dark Eldar Infantry. The one nice thing about running so many Sisters in this army is the target saturation, my opponent doesn't want to waste their big guns on a Sisters unit, so all the Dark Lances and Blasters were searching and traversing for my Custodes, meanwhile the Sisters were often ignored or hit with some token poison shots where the 3+ armor save kept them safe. I recommend trying out a Sisters blob with Aleya sometime.

Kata's are great when you remembered them. With the 9th edition rules onion you're bound to miss a layer or two of rules if you're playing fast or if you're playing beerhammer and get absorbed more in the conversation and less in the rulebook. For me I forgot about the effects of Rendax on Rounds 2 & 3; thankfully my opponent did a great job remembering the Shadowkeepers -1 Attacks trait when parceling out his melee attacks.

Round 4 Score: Custodes 74 Dark Eldar 56

Reasons for Victory
-All CP were spent defensively (Arcane Genetic Alchemy, Emperor's Auspice, Shield Wall, Creeping Dread, Rerolls)
-Guard Squads didn't flub their Invuls, last game I lost 8/9 Guards after Drazhar+Incubi charge, this game I only lost 3
-Drazhar had some unlucky Invul saves, as did many of the Wyches in Melee. After I wiped his melee units I swept up the board
-Our GT2022 mission secondary highly rewarded Attrition, every round I was able to destroy more units than my opponent
-Sisters were more effective than I expected this game. A combination of target saturation and good rolls.
-One of the suggestions earlier in the thread was the viability of hurricane bolters, they were remarkably more effective for me this game compared to salvo launchers. Historically I have rolled nothing but 1s when Meltas are involved

Question for people on here, have you yet to lose against anything but the mirror or Tau? At this point those are the only 2 matchups I feel are worth discussing, as anything else has been easy win after easy win (for me at least).

Tau seems like it requires some level of finesse. Targeting their battlesuits first seems similar to targeting our bikes. Killing them early makes the most sense. Also remember to force them to take saves on suits first by firing chip shots with spears and axes , than hitting them salvo launchers. That way they can’t just sacrifice drones to save suits outside of their 1 strat,. Finally, being able to charge their back line stuff with bikes and captains also makes a lot of sense. Using cover and LoS blocking terrain only really helps against certain units as well, so be more interested in scoring points early than protecting your guys all’s makes sense

The mirror is the mirror. I’ve had success with bating their bikes out with less important units. 3 Bike lists seem like the go to now since they are so good in the mirror (and in general tbh). That said outside of Trajann they are most likely to get nerfed, so only buy 3 boxes if you want to be very competitive

I have won vs dg, orks, BA and necrons with the new book. And sisters. but he actually came super close to breaking my army by sheer firepower. And I thought about a brutal build that might have done it: You can build an argent shroud army that advance and shoots 40-50 multi melta shots per turn (plus som other shooting) with emperors children rerolls. thats a huge threat range as they also get +1 to advance. Its like 12 inches of movement on average plus 24 inches of melta range. and every failed 4++ is basically a dead custodes/bike. I think that could hurt us. but I dont know how that fares vs other stuff.

Scoundrel80 wrote:
I have won vs dg, orks, BA and necrons with the new book. And sisters. but he actually came super close to breaking my army by sheer firepower. And I thought about a brutal build that might have done it: You can build an argent shroud army that advance and shoots 40-50 multi melta shots per turn (plus som other shooting) with emperors children rerolls. thats a huge threat range as they also get +1 to advance. Its like 12 inches of movement on average plus 24 inches of melta range. and every failed 4++ is basically a dead custodes/bike. I think that could hurt us. but I dont know how that fares vs other stuff.

Putting aside that your argent shroud build is A) a skew list that instantly losses to hordes, B) likely never going to see the table and C) possibly illegal (I don’t know if it is or not, a 25 mutlimelta list seems unlikely since you only get 1 cherub use a turn). There’s still a high chance any 6+ Bike list crushes it. Remember even if they can advance and shoot, there should be no reason all those melta’s should be able to target stuff. Their will die quicker than our stuff I can tell you that!

its 4x5 sisters with an mm in each. 3x5 retributors with mm. 3 immolators, 3 paragons with mm and there is even room for some seraphim for scoring, sacresants for holding a central marker and other stuff. It is skewed, though, and yeah, I haven't seen it on the table yet.

idk if it looses straight out to hordes. probably. but if you take out 30-40 models a turn (hitting on 3s rerolling), I mean.. thats no joke and the list has the mobility to be where it needs to be at all times.

its very strong on paper at least. And if I was going to a tourney right now I wouldn't be super concerned about hordes. All im saying is that it could really just delete half our army t1 or if there is a lot of obscuring, stay back an d pop out when we sit on the board ready to score.

but yes. im prolly just being ghost as no-one has played this : )

It's a few months down the line, but what are the most likely nerfs we are going to get hit by? Redditors are already screeching that we should be nerfed to the ground, but what's actually likely?
Trajann going up in points is a given in my opinion. Since everybody hates our bikes right now, I assume that they are going to get a price hike as well, I don't think they should lose core however. I've seen a LOT of people arguing that our stratagems are OP, undercosted and generally the best strats in the game and that they should get an increase in CP cost. This I'm firmly against though, since most of our survivability is tied to these stratagems now. Straight up nerfing the effect or increasing the cost to 2/3 CP would be too much imo.

honestly, I dont think we should be nerfed at all. the book is good, but its nothing like drukhari or admech. the army building is smooth and versatile and those 4++ saves are manageable for most armies. we are still a hyper elite army and every failed save costs us around 50 points.

I honestly dont se the army as the source of NPE as it used to be. the strats are cool and play very well to mitigate the loss of the fabled 3++.

The meta will adjust and we will settle as a lower a-tier army. thats as it should be.

that said, we will se points hikes. probably bikes which is a shame. Trajan could cost 170, I guess.

Scoundrel80 wrote:
honestly, I dont think we should be nerfed at all. the book is good, but its nothing like drukhari or admech. the army building is smooth and versatile and those 4++ saves are manageable for most armies. we are still a hyper elite army and every failed save costs us around 50 points.

I honestly dont se the army as the source of NPE as it used to be. the strats are cool and play very well to mitigate the loss of the fabled 3++.

The meta will adjust and we will settle as a lower a-tier army. thats as it should be.

that said, we will se points hikes. probably bikes which is a shame. Trajan could cost 170, I guess.

The meta will adjust in the sense that more powercrept books will come out. Due to this, nerfs in 9th often haven’t age very well. So I’m hoping they don’t go too ham with the nerfs they give us.

That said I’m going to present Reddit’s case. From the most objective way of judging the power-level of books (tournament winrate) we are just as bad if not worse than ad-mech or drukhari.

We had a 60% winrate at LVO against the best the meta could offer. Anyone who wasn’t completely delusional could tell CA2022 was only going to increase this. Well now we are at a point of having a 67% winrate this last weekend using the new update. Outside of Tau no other armies broke a 52% winrate (at least none that got played by more than 2 people) . Most sat in 35-45% range, including sisters (41%) DG (38%), SM of all flavors (34-46%, depending on chapter) and orks (44%). Drukhari and Tyranids both sat around 50% exactly. Funnily enough, Ad-mech (51%) and necrons (52%)!where the only 9th Ed codex not named Tau or us to beat 50%.

Additionally, we where one the of most played factions as well. If you discount mirror matchups, we actually had a 72% winrate. Tau were the only army that came close to this, and they actually didn’t fully win events at nearly the same rate we did.

You can say “the meta will adjust” as much as you want. I just won’t believe you based on these stats, hearing drukhari players say the same thing when their book came out, and from my own anecdotal evidence of easily crushing any of my friends armies without need for skill.

FAQ is out. PP cap. counts as HI.

EC start it not on the list so it can be used on units that are not on the battlefield.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/osTrVtUQdSidgXpR.pdf

 nordsturmking wrote:
FAQ is out. PP cap. counts as HI.

EC start it not on the list so it can be used on units that are not on the battlefield.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/osTrVtUQdSidgXpR.pdf

so with the EC strat you can make the Achillus, who is coming in with from golden light, and make him solar watch to charge in at +1? are there any other good uses for this on off table units?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Salt donkey wrote:

Scoundrel80 wrote:
honestly, I dont think we should be nerfed at all. the book is good, but its nothing like drukhari or admech. the army building is smooth and versatile and those 4++ saves are manageable for most armies. we are still a hyper elite army and every failed save costs us around 50 points.

I honestly dont se the army as the source of NPE as it used to be. the strats are cool and play very well to mitigate the loss of the fabled 3++.

The meta will adjust and we will settle as a lower a-tier army. thats as it should be.

that said, we will se points hikes. probably bikes which is a shame. Trajan could cost 170, I guess.

The meta will adjust in the sense that more powercrept books will come out. Due to this, nerfs in 9th often haven’t age very well. So I’m hoping they don’t go too ham with the nerfs they give us.

That said I’m going to present Reddit’s case. From the most objective way of judging the power-level of books (tournament winrate) we are just as bad if not worse than ad-mech or drukhari.

We had a 60% winrate at LVO against the best the meta could offer. Anyone who wasn’t completely delusional could tell CA2022 was only going to increase this. Well now we are at a point of having a 67% winrate this last weekend using the new update. Outside of Tau no other armies broke a 52% winrate (at least none that got played by more than 2 people) . Most sat in 35-45% range, including sisters (41%) DG (38%), SM of all flavors (34-46%, depending on chapter) and orks (44%). Drukhari and Tyranids both sat around 50% exactly. Funnily enough, Ad-mech (51%) and necrons (52%)!where the only 9th Ed codex not named Tau or us to beat 50%.

Additionally, we where one the of most played factions as well. If you discount mirror matchups, we actually had a 72% winrate. Tau were the only army that came close to this, and they actually didn’t fully win events at nearly the same rate we did.

You can say “the meta will adjust” as much as you want. I just won’t believe you based on these stats, hearing drukhari players say the same thing when their book came out, and from my own anecdotal evidence of easily crushing any of my friends armies without need for skill.

I now the numbers are bad right now, and yes, the book is strong. But I honestly dont think its anywhere near drukhari or admech. I might be wrong, and it is more a hunch than anything, but when I look at the lists and build them myself I just really feel admech and drukhari have way more potential for building good, consistant armies that can score points, hold the board, kill stuff on their terms and win games.

I feel that once people figure out how to break our 20-30 model armies the faction will be reigned in. I mean look at it like this: right now there is so much 3dam or worse. more than ever. fact of the matter is that now, we die from half of all those shots that hit and wound. we used to die on 33pct of those. The defensive buffs are just straight up not compensating for that loss of survivability. we are a tad bit more Killy and our characters are better, but I dont think we will be better all around when the dust settles.

Salt donkey wrote:

Scoundrel80 wrote:
honestly, I dont think we should be nerfed at all. the book is good, but its nothing like drukhari or admech. the army building is smooth and versatile and those 4++ saves are manageable for most armies. we are still a hyper elite army and every failed save costs us around 50 points.

I honestly dont se the army as the source of NPE as it used to be. the strats are cool and play very well to mitigate the loss of the fabled 3++.

The meta will adjust and we will settle as a lower a-tier army. thats as it should be.

that said, we will se points hikes. probably bikes which is a shame. Trajan could cost 170, I guess.

The meta will adjust in the sense that more powercrept books will come out. Due to this, nerfs in 9th often haven’t age very well. So I’m hoping they don’t go too ham with the nerfs they give us.

That said I’m going to present Reddit’s case. From the most objective way of judging the power-level of books (tournament winrate) we are just as bad if not worse than ad-mech or drukhari.

We had a 60% winrate at LVO against the best the meta could offer. Anyone who wasn’t completely delusional could tell CA2022 was only going to increase this. Well now we are at a point of having a 67% winrate this last weekend using the new update. Outside of Tau no other armies broke a 52% winrate (at least none that got played by more than 2 people) . Most sat in 35-45% range, including sisters (41%) DG (38%), SM of all flavors (34-46%, depending on chapter) and orks (44%). Drukhari and Tyranids both sat around 50% exactly. Funnily enough, Ad-mech (51%) and necrons (52%)!where the only 9th Ed codex not named Tau or us to beat 50%.

Additionally, we where one the of most played factions as well. If you discount mirror matchups, we actually had a 72% winrate. Tau were the only army that came close to this, and they actually didn’t fully win events at nearly the same rate we did.

You can say “the meta will adjust” as much as you want. I just won’t believe you based on these stats, hearing drukhari players say the same thing when their book came out, and from my own anecdotal evidence of easily crushing any of my friends armies without need for skill.

You got the gist of it right but a couple nit picky points:

Tau actually beats us by 1% when you exclude mirror (76% vs. 77% I believe). Tau was about 3% more likely to make 'placings' than Custodes when adjusted for number of players.

Basically, they're both in about the same position.

Yeah I’m not going to argue we are more OP than Tau. That said being about as OP as them still makes us too powerful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nordsturmking wrote:
FAQ is out. PP cap. counts as HI.

EC start it not on the list so it can be used on units that are not on the battlefield.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/osTrVtUQdSidgXpR.pdf

So they fixed obvious flaws like being able to actually run sisters in our custodes detachment and charging units being able to attack the PP termi captain. Outside of this there’s not really anything worth discussing IMO.

I think the problem with the meta adjustment hypothesis is that in spamming D3 weapons those armies become less efficient in a number of match ups. Its no good them skewing heavily against custodes to improve outcomes by a few % if in exchange they get hammered by Sisters/admech infantry spam etc where those weapons sre very inefficient.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/23/cook-up-your-space-marines-with-the-flick-of-a-switch-using-the-new-and-improved-fire-prism/

With all the leaks going around and now these news, Eldar seem to coming out swinging with their new codex. The ignore invuln rules are starting to become something of a banality it seems.

Tiberias wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/23/cook-up-your-space-marines-with-the-flick-of-a-switch-using-the-new-and-improved-fire-prism/

With all the leaks going around and now these news, Eldar seem to coming out swinging with their new codex. The ignore invuln rules are starting to become something of a banality it seems.

Just on Aeldari soup I think we're up to: Solitaires, Troupes with Harlequin's Caress, Avatars of Khaine, Yncarne and now these Fire Prisms that ignore invulns.

How many bikes atm is too many?

See lots of lists at 3x3 salvo bikes, with a bike captain, capping out at a cool half of our 2k lists.

I ran 2x3 at an RTT this weekend and it went well. What are you thinking is enough?

I certainly think the 3 man squads are probably the right amount of bikes in a squad at least.

 iGuy91 wrote:
How many bikes atm is too many?

See lots of lists at 3x3 salvo bikes, with a bike captain, capping out at a cool half of our 2k lists.

I ran 2x3 at an RTT this weekend and it went well. What are you thinking is enough?

I certainly think the 3 man squads are probably the right amount of bikes in a squad at least.

I do 3x3 and I'd never want to leave home without my third squad, but I think both are viable options.

Saw this in the FAQ and I was surprised by it. Were people trying to argue that you could force -2 Attacks per model on the enemy as long as we had two Shadowkeepers units within engagement range of that enemy?

Page 55 – Wardens of the Dark Cells
Change Trait 1 of this shield host fighting style to read:
‘While an enemy unit is within Engagement Range of one or more units with this trait, subtract 1 from the Attacks characteristic of each model in that enemy unit.’

Designer’s Note: The entry above changes ‘a unit’ to ‘one or more units’, so that this trait can subtract no more than 1 from the Attacks characteristic of models in affected enemy units.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Saw this in the FAQ and I was surprised by it. Were people trying to argue that you could force -2 Attacks per model on the enemy as long as we had two Shadowkeepers units within engagement range of that enemy?

Page 55 – Wardens of the Dark Cells
Change Trait 1 of this shield host fighting style to read:
‘While an enemy unit is within Engagement Range of one or more units with this trait, subtract 1 from the Attacks characteristic of each model in that enemy unit.’

Designer’s Note: The entry above changes ‘a unit’ to ‘one or more units’, so that this trait can subtract no more than 1 from the Attacks characteristic of models in affected enemy units.

From what I saw on Goonhammer, since this wasn't tagged as an 'aura', it stacking was apparently RAW according to them so I guess people were.

Audustum wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Saw this in the FAQ and I was surprised by it. Were people trying to argue that you could force -2 Attacks per model on the enemy as long as we had two Shadowkeepers units within engagement range of that enemy?

Page 55 – Wardens of the Dark Cells
Change Trait 1 of this shield host fighting style to read:
‘While an enemy unit is within Engagement Range of one or more units with this trait, subtract 1 from the Attacks characteristic of each model in that enemy unit.’

Designer’s Note: The entry above changes ‘a unit’ to ‘one or more units’, so that this trait can subtract no more than 1 from the Attacks characteristic of models in affected enemy units.

From what I saw on Goonhammer, since this wasn't tagged as an 'aura', it stacking was apparently RAW according to them so I guess people were.

I could see it both ways, so it's really better to get an errata than nothing at all.

Tiberias wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/23/cook-up-your-space-marines-with-the-flick-of-a-switch-using-the-new-and-improved-fire-prism/

With all the leaks going around and now these news, Eldar seem to coming out swinging with their new codex. The ignore invuln rules are starting to become something of a banality it seems.

But at the same time fire prism ignore invul is not a major problem for us. The first profile is AP2, so no difference there (might even be saved on lower than 4+), the big profile is at most Heavy 6, S14 at 3+ to hit, probably not core, and also costs 2CP, and the others can't shoot (so even though the net exchange is beneficial, they lose out on some target choosing flexibility and maybe have to overcommit). Yes, it will one shot anything we have, but it still is a huge commitment in points, CP, flexibility.

The harlequin also don't seem so overpowered. Yeah, melee attacks ignore invu for 2 CP, but they are still AP2.

Howling banshee's will be scary though. I read somewhere that they can do an obscene amount of mortal on the charge. Most units that do mortals in addition cap at 6, but for some reason they dont?

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Howling banshee's will be scary though. I read somewhere that they can do an obscene amount of mortal on the charge. Most units that do mortals in addition cap at 6, but for some reason they dont?

To be fair, multiple units have been released in 9th that had no cap only to have a cap imposed I think.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Howling banshee's will be scary though. I read somewhere that they can do an obscene amount of mortal on the charge. Most units that do mortals in addition cap at 6, but for some reason they dont?

That’s not Banshees, it’s Scorpions. Emperors Chosen can deal with that pretty easily, but otherwise their MW output can be a danger. It’s the Fire Dragons you really need to worry about though. They can automatically wound at deepstrike range, and each failed invuln is a dead Custode. Since the wounds are automatic and rerolls aren’t part of the equation, the defensive Strats Custodes rely so heavily on simply do nothing.

Rivener wrote:
It’s the Fire Dragons you really need to worry about though. They can automatically wound at deepstrike range

They can't, the auto-wounds are within 9" only.

That's a good point since Deepstrike is outside 9" even if it's 9.01".

I dont understand what auspex is saying about fight first here at 8:50

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oTLEg4lunNo

A Dude who has fights first foghts before chargers too, right? So how would my opponent get to fight first with a Lone charger? I cant believe if this is not true. Ive played around 50 games of ninth and spectated hundreds online. I cant have gotten that wrong.

~)~ fights first is not confusing guys.

FIGHT PHASE ORDER:

1. Fights first units (starting with player who's turn it is and taking turns). Charging gives fights first, so all charging units go here unless they get hit with a fights last or something that says they dont count as having charged.

2. Fights normal units (starting with player who'd turn its not and aternating).

3. Fights last units (starting with player who'd turn it is and alternating).

Scoundrel80 wrote:
I dont understand what auspex is saying about fight first here at 8:50

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oTLEg4lunNo

A Dude who has fights first foghts before chargers too, right? So how would my opponent get to fight first with a Lone charger? I cant believe if this is not true. Ive played around 50 games of ninth and spectated hundreds online. I cant have gotten that wrong.

You got it wrong, unfortunately. Charging just gives you fight first. The designer commentary to the rules establishes that all fight first effects are treated the same. That includes charging. So the charging player still gets to activate one unit first, then you get to activate one of your fight first units, then the charging player can activate another charging unit (if there is one) and you can activate a fight first unit (if there is one).

Ok. So to being able to give out fight last is thousand Times better. I understand the Logic here. fight first bumps the Unit up into the chargers fighting sequence but it doesnt change the sequence.

So now that Custodes are winning a lot of majors, what are we thinking for the inevitable nerfs incomming?

We have at least 1 placing in every top 3 and most tournament finishes have multiple custodes lists in their top 5, in the last 3 months.

What sucks is the new mission styles all cater to exactly what we do best. "Hold the center of the board" objectives, or other things like our double secure units, really tilt the game for us.

I hate to say it, but Trajann needs a nerf, and we may need to re-think our unit costs, especially bikes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4FsooC8WiA

Trajan and bikes will go up. Maybe achilles too

stratigo wrote:
Trajan and bikes will go up. Maybe achilles too

That is what I'm expecting also. I'm more sceptical about the Achilles because there is nothing oppressive about that unit imo. But there is no question about Trajann and the bikes.

I just hope they don't touch the stratagems too much. As I've said multiple times and don't grow tired of reiterating: our survivability is now very closely tied to our stratagems. If they change them or make them too expensive, it'll really hurt the faction.

Also there's a lot of hyperbole going around especially with the reddit crowd. Nobody is denying that custodes are too good in the competitive scene right now, but in many discussions custodes are brought up as this faction where you literally can't do anything against them and just "play against the dice" because you can't reroll against them and only every wound on 4s. Well yeah, but that's on one unit! You kinda got to try to bait out those strats and then blast something else, ideally another bike squad since apparently you gotta play 3 of them now.

I'm just glad the community has no business in balancing a faction right now, because the screeching mob would probably do an even worse job than GW.

With Tau on the scene, Eldar Fire Dragons, incoming, etc... do we think Dreads will retain their value? I am debating ordering a couple Achillius or Galatus (already own 3x Telemon), but I keep feeling like 9w, and a 5++ save might as well be paper these days, versus just taking more bikes/infantry.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
With Tau on the scene, Eldar Fire Dragons, incoming, etc... do we think Dreads will retain their value? I am debating ordering a couple Achillius or Galatus (already own 3x Telemon), but I keep feeling like 9w, and a 5++ save might as well be paper these days, versus just taking more bikes/infantry.

Difficult to judge whether Fire Dragons are going to find their way into Eldar lists. They're definitely powerful, but the eldar book is really big, so I think it's going to take a week or two for people to find out what builds are actually viable.

Regarding the dreadnoughts: this is just my opinion, but never think about what the meta is right now when buying models, especially expensive FW ones. Buy the stuff you like and enjoy playing, the meta is always shifting. Last year Venatari were all the rage, now nobody ever plays them really. With that being said however, I think the Galatus and Achillus are both very strong units and will remain very good unless they get an exorbitant price hike or everybody suddenly starts bringing 3 hammerheads or 3 fire prisms.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
With Tau on the scene, Eldar Fire Dragons, incoming, etc... do we think Dreads will retain their value? I am debating ordering a couple Achillius or Galatus (already own 3x Telemon), but I keep feeling like 9w, and a 5++ save might as well be paper these days, versus just taking more bikes/infantry.

Galatus have a 4++ so a little tougher. I like them, but I just put one in as a token Eternal Penitent.

Audustum wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
With Tau on the scene, Eldar Fire Dragons, incoming, etc... do we think Dreads will retain their value? I am debating ordering a couple Achillius or Galatus (already own 3x Telemon), but I keep feeling like 9w, and a 5++ save might as well be paper these days, versus just taking more bikes/infantry.

Galatus have a 4++ so a little tougher. I like them, but I just put one in as a token Eternal Penitent.

Eternal Penitant doesn't make the Dread a character, does it?

The problem isn't our dreads, even the telemon is basically irrelevant to our most glaring Reddit problems. The PP is one of the best relics I've seen in the game, in 3 editions. Our plastic lineup is SO good, that most people don't even need to go to FW now. Bikes and Shields, Hell even Wardens. Our big strength is our new found flexibility, and seeing as how that was essentially a complete redesign of the core faction style, I don't see how one "scalpels" that instead of just sheer nerfs.

I see them heavily restricting the karate system, and our sub faction bonuses. Maybe we get a points nerf, but even with a points nerf Custodes are still just amazingly flexible or powerful.

How do you put this genie back in the bottle? If GW has a problem with OP factions, I don't think they've decided to do anything about it. DE are still silly. Tau and Eldar are shaping up even more silly. Given the banality of "Ignores invuln" shooting nowadays, I don't see us holding the top spot past the summer.

I don't think they'll be raising the points costs on the Dreads personally, they are not an oppressive unit, are easy to wipe out (especially the Achillus with a 5++) and are one of the very few sources of damage greater than 2 in the army.

Trajann should see a points increase, to be honest I'm still surprised his cost was lowered day 1.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
With Tau on the scene, Eldar Fire Dragons, incoming, etc... do we think Dreads will retain their value? I am debating ordering a couple Achillius or Galatus (already own 3x Telemon), but I keep feeling like 9w, and a 5++ save might as well be paper these days, versus just taking more bikes/infantry.

Dreadnoughts are already rarer in the face of tau a lot of podium lists are skipping them for another unit of bikes, but remain fairly good.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The problem isn't our dreads, even the telemon is basically irrelevant to our most glaring Reddit problems. The PP is one of the best relics I've seen in the game, in 3 editions. Our plastic lineup is SO good, that most people don't even need to go to FW now. Bikes and Shields, Hell even Wardens. Our big strength is our new found flexibility, and seeing as how that was essentially a complete redesign of the core faction style, I don't see how one "scalpels" that instead of just sheer nerfs.

I see them heavily restricting the karate system, and our sub faction bonuses. Maybe we get a points nerf, but even with a points nerf Custodes are still just amazingly flexible or powerful.

How do you put this genie back in the bottle? If GW has a problem with OP factions, I don't think they've decided to do anything about it. DE are still silly. Tau and Eldar are shaping up even more silly. Given the banality of "Ignores invuln" shooting nowadays, I don't see us holding the top spot past the summer.

It is highly unlikely they change any rules, except maybe an overall bodyguard change. The praetorian plate is an okay relic. It’s not overpowered. It simply is solid. But there is a reason the praetorian is the first hq cut. Trajan and a bike are both superior.

They just need to find a way to fix the jet bikes. Everything else can be played around. The jet bikes are what elevates Custodes right now to S tier level with their OP win rate. Jet bikes give them a 14 inch move on a super durable unit that shoots damage D3+3 shots and fights well too. Its just too much of a good thing in one package that has zero weaknesses because it flies too. You can't block it, you can't kill it fast enough (for most armies), you can't beat it in combat (because it can choose what it fights). And you can't even psychic mortal wound it to death because of the 4+++.

The Salvos single handedly transformed Custodes into a feared shooting army. Whatever the jet bikes cannot outshoot, they can kill in melee. Whatever they can't kill in melee, they can safely keep away and shoot it to death or let Trajan and company come up and do the work for them while they fly elsewhere and bully other units instead.

Bikes are fine atm except salvo is too cheap. Bump points on salvo launchers and they are where they need to be. Its a dark lance on a model that hits on 2's. 10-15pts would be fair.

Trajann can go to 165pts and if you take him you arent allowed to use Victor of the Blood games (since he has already used it). This is a sufficient nerf for him.

Wardens are not actually winning tournies, they are just in that position where if you fix bodyguard itself (make it so that you cant bodyguard a character unless you also can be shot) then they cause no problems.

Dreads are not really an issue because Tau pick them up comically easy.


Aquillon termies are currently OVERCOSTED for what they bring, which is why you never see them. They can be easily fixed however (and be good from a thematic viewpoint) if you give them +1w and improve the guns a bit. Firepike goes to d6+2 hits and Adrathic goes to dealing a mortal in addition on a 4+ to wound. Now they have a place compared to allarus.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

Audustum wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
With Tau on the scene, Eldar Fire Dragons, incoming, etc... do we think Dreads will retain their value? I am debating ordering a couple Achillius or Galatus (already own 3x Telemon), but I keep feeling like 9w, and a 5++ save might as well be paper these days, versus just taking more bikes/infantry.

Galatus have a 4++ so a little tougher. I like them, but I just put one in as a token Eternal Penitent.

Eternal Penitant doesn't make the Dread a character, does it?

It does not.

I'll chime in on the possible custode fixes.

Its hard, as a player I look at the rules and don't really seem anything that is outright broken like broadsides are, various DE things were or seriously undercosted like most of Admech were.

That said I'm six games in and the only game that has been even close was against other Custodes in an RTT final. Adding in the wider community results and they are obviously a problem.

I think its that they are just too reliable and whatever they want to do and super flexible in what they can do. Add to that the ability to spike certain units survivability and really mess with opposition game plans.

Compounding the issue is the sheer amount of players that have jumped on board the faction - I get it, its a cheap, easy to build and reletively easy to learn/play faction - but the number of players is heavily skewing the results.

Possible fixes:

Points: the first place to start, bikes could go up 5 with salvo going up another 5 - this would have quite an impact on most lists packing a couple of squads.
Add to that Trajan going up 10-15 and Bike captains getting the same 5/5 treatment as the bikes.
I don't think there are many other things that deserve a points bump to be honest - Its a tricky thing to manage as if to many things go up we just become unable to play the missions.

Strats: This is my main fear! Upping the cost of EA which is the most complained about strat would be a massive hit but I think thats what they may do. AGA is no where near as oppressive and is very similar to other abilities in many other factions so I don't see it altering.

Other possible changes: As we've seen before they like to play around with the CORE keyword and I could see them removing it from Bikes and perhaps Dreads. This would be an OK fix and would also help tone down Trajan but would make their use of CORE really inconsistant and random.
They could try put Allurus up from min 1 to min 3 squads to remove some of our MSU.
They could alter Emperors chosen to only a 5+++ against morals to make them easier to tech against.

Lots of options, hopefully they don't go too far overboard as I think alot of the probelms are people just not playing into custodes very well - lots of my opponents don't split fire to draw out strats, continue shooting unbits after I use the strats, put themselves in HI range knowing I can do it anywhere, etr... Positioning and flexable target priority can work wonders against us.

Some interesting points, but I disagree with the CORE changes because it would push builds even more towards emperors chosen because the built in re-rolls suddenly becomes even more valuable. I get it, and it's an understandable fix, but I feel it would disrupt internal codex balance even further.

I also don't quite understand what's the main problem with esteemed amalgam? I've heard multiple people say it should be just once per game and I'd really like to get my hands on what these people are smoking. Increase the cost to 2cp? I could live with that.
They must not touch our defensive strats however if the goal is to not utterly stomp the faction.

Tiberias wrote:
Some interesting points, but I disagree with the CORE changes because it would push builds even more towards emperors chosen because the built in re-rolls suddenly becomes even more valuable. I get it, and it's an understandable fix, but I feel it would disrupt internal codex balance even further.

I also don't quite understand what's the main problem with esteemed amalgam? I've heard multiple people say it should be just once per game and I'd really like to get my hands on what these people are smoking. Increase the cost to 2cp? I could live with that.
They must not touch our defensive strats however if the goal is to not utterly stomp the faction.

Totally agree that they shouldn't heavily nerf Amalgam. Its very powerful due to the fact that they have made every thing in the game able to re-roll everything (incredibly poor design) but it needs to be. Custodes should be survivable but in todays ultra deadly game a T5 with a 2+/4++ just doesn't cut it I'm sad to say. Add to that, Amalgam is one of our signature abilities that people know (and fear) us for, faction need stuff that other factions don't get and it is one of those things for us.

So I fear people getting so wound up on thinking EC is base, that it becomes the auto-take. Only one subfaction has 4+++ and while it is powerful, it's not the top performer. Shadowkeepers still outperforms it in raw killing power. So Shadowkeepers bikes are still fairly killable to dedicated at units. Also we have to look at our bikes in comparison to other bikes.

No one else's bikes are running with our statlines, 2+ W/BS,6 S/T, 4 wounds, with a 2+4++6+++, for 75 points. That is bonkers. Throw on that a S7 melee weapon and their two shooting options, and it's starting to get into OP territory. Bikes in their current form need to be 80-85points base, and their weapons can be 5 for HB and 10 for missiles.

Trajann is simply the most powerful beatstick in the game as named characters go, that aren't LOWs. Obviously he's not Guilliman, or Morty. But he smacks Abby and Thrakka, for the cost. He needs to be closer to 190 than 150.

If you're going to balance them, points are the way to go. Raising strat costs could just remove our viability outright (except maybe making Esteemed Amalgam 2CP).

Bikes going to 85 base and 5 for Salvos isn't a bad idea. Then they're 270 for a squad of 3 salvos. Not bad at all.

Trajann should likely be somewhere between 170 and 200. I'm not sure exactly where.

Allarus could probably stand to be 65 instead of 60. Conversely though, Aquillons really do need to come down some and be about the same points as Allarus.

These would probably fix the issue so stop there and see effects.

Audustum wrote:
If you're going to balance them, points are the way to go. Raising strat costs could just remove our viability outright (except maybe making Esteemed Amalgam 2CP).

Bikes going to 85 base and 5 for Salvos isn't a bad idea. Then they're 270 for a squad of 3 salvos. Not bad at all.

Trajann should likely be somewhere between 170 and 200. I'm not sure exactly where.

Allarus could probably stand to be 65 instead of 60. Conversely though, Aquillons really do need to come down some and be about the same points as Allarus.

These would probably fix the issue so stop there and see effects.

I think you have the right of it here on most points, my only concern is what value would Terminators have if you can still get Wardens for almost half the cost, that hit and shoot just as hard? I think to nerf Allarus is to create new problems. I would think wargear would be a more appropriate place for points? axes are 10, spears are 5? Maybe make the launchers a baked in bump of 2-3 points?

This is always the warden problem again. What to do with Wardens? They are currently our cheapest melee powerhouse. You can still take them in giant squads, and their axes hit just as hard. It's too late to give them something new, but I do think they need more seperation from Allarus. I think moving Allarus to Heavy Support would be one way.

Don’t nerf units not being used. Allarus aren’t being used often. The lvo had a different mission set

stratigo wrote:
Don’t nerf units not being used. Allarus aren’t being used often. The lvo had a different mission set

I see your point, however the base unit is not the problem. The relics available to it's base are. The PP is at the heart of most of the Reddit screaming, as are the turn 1 lethality of our bikes. Right now, with the new style of 9th being unveiled, Allarus play perfectly into the Hold the Middle style of missions. I don't think you are wrong, but I think the future design choices by GW were shortsighted. Almost, dare I say it, poorly thought out.

Custodes seem to have the problem that marines had at the start of the edition: they're just too killy, resilient and reliable that an opponent can do nothing but be overrun.

They way GW dealt with that was targeted points nerfs,new codexes and missions, and I reckon the same will happen here.

I want custodes to stay top of tier 1 personally. I've played them for years and it is so nice that they feel as powerful as they should now.

I feel GW should put up trajann and bikes a little bit and see what happens with eldar, nids and csm hitting the meta

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Don’t nerf units not being used. Allarus aren’t being used often. The lvo had a different mission set

I see your point, however the base unit is not the problem. The relics available to it's base are. The PP is at the heart of most of the Reddit screaming, as are the turn 1 lethality of our bikes. Right now, with the new style of 9th being unveiled, Allarus play perfectly into the Hold the Middle style of missions. I don't think you are wrong, but I think the future design choices by GW were shortsighted. Almost, dare I say it, poorly thought out.

Praetorian plate is not bad and the people saying it is are dumb

I feel like most who over-value Praetorian Plate fail to realize that as a Heroic Intervention, the character can be attacked. I've seen it misused often by players who suddenly lose the Captain for no good reason, just as often as folks who use it correctly.

I'd be fine with bumping up some of the Strats to make them more cost effective with 4-6 man squads.

Which Stratagems were you thinking of increasing? Several of them already go up to 2CP when they contain 4+ models

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Which Stratagems were you thinking of increasing? Several of them already go up to 2CP when they contain 4+ models

Honestly they shouldn't change value. The point of Strats to give some sorta incentive to run more than MSU.

For starters, we should stop thinking of altering Custodes Strats like they are Guard Squads, or SM Tacticals. They can't be taken in units of 10, so the >4 costing more is a bit odd. It should be anything over the standard 3 models in a unit, unless it's Wardens, which should still be 4/5 as you can still take them in "large squads".

Secondly, just because idiots lose their Termi-captain by not reading the charge correctly doesn't change the fact that you can at will basically shift and alter the battlefield, for zero cost. PP cannot be altered at this point, unless it is completely removed. The Flag in Terminator armor with +1 attack could scare Abadon from making a charge.

This is what I meant. You can't put this genie back in the bottle now. You've made Custodes Terminators into the Sanguinor basically.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
For starters, we should stop thinking of altering Custodes Strats like they are Guard Squads, or SM Tacticals. They can't be taken in units of 10, so the >4 costing more is a bit odd. It should be anything over the standard 3 models in a unit, unless it's Wardens, which should still be 4/5 as you can still take them in "large squads".

Secondly, just because idiots lose their Termi-captain by not reading the charge correctly doesn't change the fact that you can at will basically shift and alter the battlefield, for zero cost. PP cannot be altered at this point, unless it is completely removed. The Flag in Terminator armor with +1 attack could scare Abadon from making a charge.

This is what I meant. You can't put this genie back in the bottle now. You've made Custodes Terminators into the Sanguinor basically.

I'm sorry but how many games have you played with a PP Cap? It is a nice gimmick, but it really isn't a shifting force. I mean, you mess with your opponent's head and plan, but not any more than a unit doing some fall back and charge stuff with a strat. You jump in, hit 6 S8 -2 2. If you roll good you can kill most of an Intercessor squad or if you are in Rendax, force a handful of 5+ saves on a vehicle, for a potential whopping 12 damage (granted you hit that top 1 percentile roll). Hardly shifting the battlefield there.

KGYM wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
For starters, we should stop thinking of altering Custodes Strats like they are Guard Squads, or SM Tacticals. They can't be taken in units of 10, so the >4 costing more is a bit odd. It should be anything over the standard 3 models in a unit, unless it's Wardens, which should still be 4/5 as you can still take them in "large squads".

Secondly, just because idiots lose their Termi-captain by not reading the charge correctly doesn't change the fact that you can at will basically shift and alter the battlefield, for zero cost. PP cannot be altered at this point, unless it is completely removed. The Flag in Terminator armor with +1 attack could scare Abadon from making a charge.

This is what I meant. You can't put this genie back in the bottle now. You've made Custodes Terminators into the Sanguinor basically.

I'm sorry but how many games have you played with a PP Cap? It is a nice gimmick, but it really isn't a shifting force. I mean, you mess with your opponent's head and plan, but not any more than a unit doing some fall back and charge stuff with a strat. You jump in, hit 6 S8 -2 2. If you roll good you can kill most of an Intercessor squad or if you are in Rendax, force a handful of 5+ saves on a vehicle, for a potential whopping 12 damage (granted you hit that top 1 percentile roll). Hardly shifting the battlefield there.

Unless you jump a +1 attack flag with the PP and an axe in, and then it's 6 attacks with the axe, and +1 attack to every model in the charged unit. If the charged unit was a squad of 3 bikes say, thats now 15 attacks instead of 12. If it was a max squad of shield boys in Rendax, etc etc. Is it the level of IH unkillable Character Dreads? No. Is it near the level of BA Smash Captains? I would say it's even worse, because those hit on 4's, whereas the Allarus Captain will always hit on 2s.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Unless you jump a +1 attack flag with the PP and an axe in, and then it's 6 attacks with the axe, and +1 attack to every model in the charged unit.

Except that the Allarus Vexila Praetor does not have a melee weapon aside of a misericordia. In which case you get 4, not 6 attacks at a whopping S5 AP-2 D1.

I am unimpressed.

 Thairne wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Unless you jump a +1 attack flag with the PP and an axe in, and then it's 6 attacks with the axe, and +1 attack to every model in the charged unit.

Except that the Allarus Vexila Praetor does not have a melee weapon aside of a misericordia. In which case you get 4, not 6 attacks at a whopping S5 AP-2 D1.

I am unimpressed.

Well you actually either get 5 spear/axe attacks or 6 daggers with a vexilla. 4 base, +1 for banner, +1 for dagger.

But no, the vexilla is not doing damage himself. He's buffing whatever unit he pops up by significantly though.

Lets assume you had a unit of vertus praetors that got charged and you PP in. You pop up on the backside of the charging unit at .9" away from the charging unit.

Now your opponent cannot pile in all his models into the bikes and can likely only get 2-4 models into the vexilla (unlikely to kill it).

He swings as much as he can into the bikes and kills 1 of them.

Now your bikes can go, with the +1 attack from the banner and +1 attack per model from Avenge the fallen. Your 3 man bike unit that lost a model is now only down one dagger attack from when they were a full 3 man unit, then the praetor gets to swing. You've actually gotten far more damage into the charging unit than they were planning for.



PP is very strong, which is why its only once per game.

I think the nerf to make it a heroic intervention is absolutly fine and in line with what it should be. Keeps you honest and make you actually think about using it. Your not gonna just pop up and take a point away from the swarmlord for instance.





I think the following changes need to happen to custodes.

Bring trajann to 165, and make it so that if you take him you cannot use Victor of the Blood games on any other character (since he has it).
Bring salvo to +10pts a model instead of +5.
Make it so that you can only take one unit of wardens and they use no slot (you get them as a unit to protect your WL).
Give agamatus bikes +1w and reduce points cost by 5pts.
Give aquillon termies +1w.
Bring Orion down 20 more points.
Make ares main gun go to one shot 12 damage ignore invuns or have D3+1 shots in beam mode.
Bring all Lastrum bolt cannons to D2 like they are supposed to be.

Bring Emperor's Auspice to 2cp.
Add the grav impuslor strat for our tanks (-2 to be charged).
Make Esteemed Amalgam so that you can only select each other shield host once.

 Eihnlazer wrote:

 Thairne wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Unless you jump a +1 attack flag with the PP and an axe in, and then it's 6 attacks with the axe, and +1 attack to every model in the charged unit.

Except that the Allarus Vexila Praetor does not have a melee weapon aside of a misericordia. In which case you get 4, not 6 attacks at a whopping S5 AP-2 D1.

I am unimpressed.

Well you actually either get 5 spear/axe attacks or 6 daggers with a vexilla. 4 base, +1 for banner, +1 for dagger.

But no, the vexilla is not doing damage himself. He's buffing whatever unit he pops up by significantly though.

Lets assume you had a unit of vertus praetors that got charged and you PP in. You pop up on the backside of the charging unit at .9" away from the charging unit.

Now your opponent cannot pile in all his models into the bikes and can likely only get 2-4 models into the vexilla (unlikely to kill it).

He swings as much as he can into the bikes and kills 1 of them.

Now your bikes can go, with the +1 attack from the banner and +1 attack per model from Avenge the fallen. Your 3 man bike unit that lost a model is now only down one dagger attack from when they were a full 3 man unit, then the praetor gets to swing. You've actually gotten far more damage into the charging unit than they were planning for.



PP is very strong, which is why its only once per game.

I think the nerf to make it a heroic intervention is absolutly fine and in line with what it should be. Keeps you honest and make you actually think about using it. Your not gonna just pop up and take a point away from the swarmlord for instance.





I think the following changes need to happen to custodes.

Bring trajann to 165, and make it so that if you take him you cannot use Victor of the Blood games on any other character (since he has it).
Bring salvo to +10pts a model instead of +5.
Make it so that you can only take one unit of wardens and they use no slot (you get them as a unit to protect your WL).
Give agamatus bikes +1w and reduce points cost by 5pts.
Give aquillon termies +1w.
Bring Orion down 20 more points.
Make ares main gun go to one shot 12 damage ignore invuns or have D3+1 shots in beam mode.
Bring all Lastrum bolt cannons to D2 like they are supposed to be.

Bring Emperor's Auspice to 2cp.
Add the grav impuslor strat for our tanks (-2 to be charged).
Make Esteemed Amalgam so that you can only select each other shield host once.

I think all of this is fair and honestly a step in the right direction.. My only question is the Ares Gun change. I'd rather we NOT be part of the emerging problem with this game. Also, units that never see play won't see play just because of that buff. Ala our Tank units.

Orion should cost more than a LR, considering it's got flyer, Supersonic, and an Invuln. All things that make it immesurably better than a LR.

I also think even at 165 Trajann is criminal. He needs to be 180 or nerfed other way. He's currently leading the league in RBIs and HRs, he should cost slightly less than 200, imho. I think 180 would still be auto-take. I mean, be honest, we don't have to pay for daggers anymore, or thee full squads of guardians, and all our units costs went down, we can afford it.

If they made Lastrum Bolters D2 I think you'd be hard pressed to ever purchase the Adrathic Destructors on the Achillus Dread, unless you had nothing else to spend your points on.

Not for nothing, but I'd really rather they gave the multi-melta D6+3 damage, and the Ares AC d2.

I just want to play with the toy I bought back in 2020, please.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
If they made Lastrum Bolters D2 I think you'd be hard pressed to ever purchase the Adrathic Destructors on the Achillus Dread, unless you had nothing else to spend your points on.

Just the bolt cannons, not the bolters on the aquillons. The only models that use the bolt cannons are the caladius, the orion, and the agamatus bikes.

Ah, okay I see what you mean. I think most of the items on your list are reasonable and I definitely think we'll see a points hike on Trajann and the Salvo launchers. I'm curious why you think Emperor's Auspice needs to go to flat 2CP though.

Transhuman is on alot of armies and ours is appropriately priced, but EA is pretty uncommon. It completely invalidates alot of other armies power into us. It should just always be 2CP.

We can also get no-rerolls to hit in combat for free with kaptaris so I dont feel increasing it is too harsh.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Transhuman is on alot of armies and ours is appropriately priced, but EA is pretty uncommon. It completely invalidates alot of other armies power into us. It should just always be 2CP.

We can also get no-rerolls to hit in combat for free with kaptaris so I dont feel increasing it is too harsh.

I could probably live with emperors auspice being 2cp though it's a hard sell...you do realize that most of our survivability is now tied to those two strats (alchemy and auspice). T5, 4++ doesn't cut it anymore nowadays, it's nothing special.

I am not able to comprehend the justification for making Trajann Valoris, arguably the most capable non-primarch humanoid fighter in the galaxy, cost slightly more than Sir Walken. 160 points for the best beatstick in the game that isn't a LOW? His damage output alone is worth 160. With his stat line, his invuln, his FNP, and his super special relic, he's at least 180-200.

Abbadon - 220
Drazhar - 145
Thrakka - 300
Beastboss on Squigosaur - 175
Voldus - 150
Draigo - 180
Irillyth - 140
Asurmen - 160
Farsight - 130
Shadowsun - 150

You really think Trajann deserves to cost the same as Asurmen, but less than Draigo?

He needs to be at least as much as a generic GK Character, and he's not as cheese as a GMDK, but I'd put him around the same as Draigo. His natural abilities are a match for Draigo's psyker stuff.

Tiberias wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Transhuman is on alot of armies and ours is appropriately priced, but EA is pretty uncommon. It completely invalidates alot of other armies power into us. It should just always be 2CP.

We can also get no-rerolls to hit in combat for free with kaptaris so I dont feel increasing it is too harsh.

I could probably live with emperors auspice being 2cp though it's a hard sell...you do realize that most of our survivability is now tied to those two strats (alchemy and auspice). T5, 4++ doesn't cut it anymore nowadays, it's nothing special.

Yeah I'm in agreement with this. 2CP Auspice risks ruining the entire army it's so bad.

Start with point nerfs then breathe and see what happens from there.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Transhuman is on alot of armies and ours is appropriately priced, but EA is pretty uncommon. It completely invalidates alot of other armies power into us. It should just always be 2CP.

We can also get no-rerolls to hit in combat for free with kaptaris so I dont feel increasing it is too harsh.

Yeah I see what you mean, it is a unique ability for our faction (well, until other 9e codexes start turning off rerolls). Personally, I think 8th and 9th suffers from having too many rerolls, I remember the first time I played against Gulliman in 8th, there was an unbelievable amount of rolling going on the other side of the table , so a 1-2CP ability that turns them off seems reasonable to me, especially for a ultra-elite small number of models army.

2CP for Auspice "Ruins the entire army"? Really? How? We have more CP than ever before, we gain more each turn, and we have a character that gives us free CP just by existing. How is 2CP to shut down an entire game mechanic capable of ruining our army? You do realize our claim to fame post codex has been our ability to kill anything with ease, not our ability to survive anything. Does any other faction in the game have the ability to do this? All I can think of is Sister's who can force dice on a roll?

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Transhuman is on alot of armies and ours is appropriately priced, but EA is pretty uncommon. It completely invalidates alot of other armies power into us. It should just always be 2CP.

We can also get no-rerolls to hit in combat for free with kaptaris so I dont feel increasing it is too harsh.

Yeah I see what you mean, it is a unique ability for our faction (well, until other 9e codexes start turning off rerolls). Personally, I think 8th and 9th suffers from having too many rerolls, I remember the first time I played against Gulliman in 8th, there was an unbelievable amount of rolling going on the other side of the table , so a 1-2CP ability that turns them off seems reasonable to me, especially for a ultra-elite small number of models army.

And it's ONE unit. Seriously I'm so fed up with the reddit mob especially screeching that you can't do anything against Custodes because you can't use re-rolls against them. It's one unit, and a good player can bait out the strat and then blast something else if necessary. Sure, it's a very powerful ability, but I am sick of these black and white assessments of "you can't ever re-roll against them"....such bs.

Tiberias wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Transhuman is on alot of armies and ours is appropriately priced, but EA is pretty uncommon. It completely invalidates alot of other armies power into us. It should just always be 2CP.

We can also get no-rerolls to hit in combat for free with kaptaris so I dont feel increasing it is too harsh.

Yeah I see what you mean, it is a unique ability for our faction (well, until other 9e codexes start turning off rerolls). Personally, I think 8th and 9th suffers from having too many rerolls, I remember the first time I played against Gulliman in 8th, there was an unbelievable amount of rolling going on the other side of the table , so a 1-2CP ability that turns them off seems reasonable to me, especially for a ultra-elite small number of models army.

And it's ONE unit. Seriously I'm so fed up with the reddit mob especially screeching that you can't do anything against Custodes because you can't use re-rolls against them. It's one unit, and a good player can bait out the strat and then blast something else if necessary. Sure, it's a very powerful ability, but I am sick of these black and white assessments of "you can't ever re-roll against them"....such bs.

In addition, we lean on this crutch a lot. You're only gonna have 2 turns of this at 2CP. That's not enough.

Tiberias wrote:

And it's ONE unit. Seriously I'm so fed up with the reddit mob especially screeching that you can't do anything against Custodes because you can't use re-rolls against them. It's one unit, and a good player can bait out the strat and then blast something else if necessary. Sure, it's a very powerful ability, but I am sick of these black and white assessments of "you can't ever re-roll against them"....such bs.

Completely agree, even though our Transhuman and turn off reroll strats are only 1 CP, its only one unit for one phase. It's easy to overcome if you're willing to be patient with your resources. Honestly I'm surprised by how much flak the Custodes codex has gotten by the angry internet mob. Our units haven't changed much since the 8e codex, we've lost the 3++, but gained Karate and cheaper stratagems. I'd wager most of the people complaining never faced Custodes in 8e, and instead are irate when they see consistent win rates at tournaments which is an entirely different level of play altogether.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

And it's ONE unit. Seriously I'm so fed up with the reddit mob especially screeching that you can't do anything against Custodes because you can't use re-rolls against them. It's one unit, and a good player can bait out the strat and then blast something else if necessary. Sure, it's a very powerful ability, but I am sick of these black and white assessments of "you can't ever re-roll against them"....such bs.

Completely agree, even though our Transhuman and turn off reroll strats are only 1 CP, its only one unit for one phase. It's easy to overcome if you're willing to be patient with your resources. Honestly I'm surprised by how much flak the Custodes codex has gotten by the angry internet mob. Our units haven't changed much since the 8e codex, we've lost the 3++, but gained Karate and cheaper stratagems. I'd wager most of the people complaining never faced Custodes in 8e, and instead are irate when they see consistent win rates at tournaments which is an entirely different level of play altogether.

We're also all that's holding Tau in check. Their win rate might explode even further if we get taken out too hard and/or they aren't addressed enough

I haven't had a chance to play 9e Tau yet but I'm looking forward to it. I think there's only one Tau player in my current FLGS, my last one had several.

EA is very good, no one is denying that and at 2CP it will still be pretty good. Personally I like the change to make it always 2CP on bikes but still 1CP on 3 man infantry.

I've had 6 games with the new book and its very powerful, more so than it seems on first read but if you believed everything being said about us you would think that transhuman (a very common ability in other armies) and no rerolls were in constant effect on all our units.
I've played against other custodes and I just split fire until they pop their strats and then concentrate other fire where they don't - it makes target priority and shot positioning harder but isn't that difficult to work around.

I'm hoping they start with points on Trajan and bikes + salvo and go from there - its a fine line, something needs to be done but we are such an elite force that it would be easy to over correct.

The big problem is all of 9th has focused on melee armies. No one has really dealt with or was prepared for an ALL shooting army. Tau are dominating the Meta now because the Meta was built around defeating melee threats. I'd say give it another two months, and I bet Guard will be the new Super Power. They already have a character that has literal infinite shooting with grenades...

fething the strats is a great way to put the codex to the bottom of the pile. But also I am seeing folks suggest changes that just mean you want to run a big squad and win with that instead have having to think too hard with all of 3 smaller squads what to use strats on and it is silly


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Transhuman is on alot of armies and ours is appropriately priced, but EA is pretty uncommon. It completely invalidates alot of other armies power into us. It should just always be 2CP.

We can also get no-rerolls to hit in combat for free with kaptaris so I dont feel increasing it is too harsh.

You make it 2 cp, and custodes armies simply consolidate units. It makes the army MORE brainless. The cp split is to stop things like this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The big problem is all of 9th has focused on melee armies. No one has really dealt with or was prepared for an ALL shooting army. Tau are dominating the Meta now because the Meta was built around defeating melee threats. I'd say give it another two months, and I bet Guard will be the new Super Power. They already have a character that has literal infinite shooting with grenades...

Tau dominate the meta because they are near impossible to punish. They have by far the most indirect firepower in the game, several JSJ and fallback and shoot tricks, easy ways to reduce charges against them, and they still get to abuse drones.

Except for other tau, there isn't an army out there that really does meaningful damage to a meta tau army. Even custodes mostly make it by grace of emperor's auspice and standing in the center being too scary to contest and dying slow enough to score more.

I will say the new Harly Jetbikes should take the heat off our jetbikes being OP for a month or two, if their rules stick. 90pts for a Heavy 2 S12 AP4 gun that does 3d3 damage, or 2d3 S5 AP3 D1 Blast, or it's Haywire Guns of 2d3 S4 AP3 3 damage shooting that wounds all vehicles on 4s, and does d3 MWs on 6s. And double D2 Shuriken cannons. Also has JSJ, a -1 to hit, and permanent Can't reroll to-hit rolls.

Anyone else ready for 10th?

Actually, if they are making that the new thing it would be a hilarious way for them to kill re-rolls.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I will say the new Harly Jetbikes should take the heat off our jetbikes being OP for a month or two, if their rules stick. 90pts for a Heavy 2 S12 AP4 gun that does 3d3 damage, or 2d3 S5 AP3 D1 Blast, or it's Haywire Guns of 2d3 S4 AP3 3 damage shooting that wounds all vehicles on 4s, and does d3 MWs on 6s. And double D2 Shuriken cannons. Also has JSJ, a -1 to hit, and permanent Can't reroll to-hit rolls.

Anyone else ready for 10th?

Actually, if they are making that the new thing it would be a hilarious way for them to kill re-rolls.

I think you mean their transports from what you're describing? Only the Voidweaver can use the Prismatic Cannon, the Skyweavers can only bring the Haywire Cannon.

Again, custodes have a pretty simple set of power models and can reigned it by increasing their points. Missile bikes and Trajan. That’s the competitive core

 Grimskul wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I will say the new Harly Jetbikes should take the heat off our jetbikes being OP for a month or two, if their rules stick. 90pts for a Heavy 2 S12 AP4 gun that does 3d3 damage, or 2d3 S5 AP3 D1 Blast, or it's Haywire Guns of 2d3 S4 AP3 3 damage shooting that wounds all vehicles on 4s, and does d3 MWs on 6s. And double D2 Shuriken cannons. Also has JSJ, a -1 to hit, and permanent Can't reroll to-hit rolls.

Anyone else ready for 10th?

Actually, if they are making that the new thing it would be a hilarious way for them to kill re-rolls.

I think you mean their transports from what you're describing? Only the Voidweaver can use the Prismatic Cannon, the Skyweavers can only bring the Haywire Cannon.

I am talking about this one, which he clearly stated was a Jetbike. If it's not, my bad, I don't know Harlequins, I was trusting that he did.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I will say the new Harly Jetbikes should take the heat off our jetbikes being OP for a month or two, if their rules stick. 90pts for a Heavy 2 S12 AP4 gun that does 3d3 damage, or 2d3 S5 AP3 D1 Blast, or it's Haywire Guns of 2d3 S4 AP3 3 damage shooting that wounds all vehicles on 4s, and does d3 MWs on 6s. And double D2 Shuriken cannons. Also has JSJ, a -1 to hit, and permanent Can't reroll to-hit rolls.

Anyone else ready for 10th?

Actually, if they are making that the new thing it would be a hilarious way for them to kill re-rolls.

I think you mean their transports from what you're describing? Only the Voidweaver can use the Prismatic Cannon, the Skyweavers can only bring the Haywire Cannon.

I am talking about this one, which he clearly stated was a Jetbike. If it's not, my bad, I don't know Harlequins, I was trusting that he did.

Yeah, Auspex Tactics can sometimes feth up his wording with the amount of videos he pumps out everyday, it's a vehicle, not a jetbike, even though he states it is on the video. No big deal though, they're very strong either way.

 Grimskul wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I will say the new Harly Jetbikes should take the heat off our jetbikes being OP for a month or two, if their rules stick. 90pts for a Heavy 2 S12 AP4 gun that does 3d3 damage, or 2d3 S5 AP3 D1 Blast, or it's Haywire Guns of 2d3 S4 AP3 3 damage shooting that wounds all vehicles on 4s, and does d3 MWs on 6s. And double D2 Shuriken cannons. Also has JSJ, a -1 to hit, and permanent Can't reroll to-hit rolls.

Anyone else ready for 10th?

Actually, if they are making that the new thing it would be a hilarious way for them to kill re-rolls.

I think you mean their transports from what you're describing? Only the Voidweaver can use the Prismatic Cannon, the Skyweavers can only bring the Haywire Cannon.

I am talking about this one, which he clearly stated was a Jetbike. If it's not, my bad, I don't know Harlequins, I was trusting that he did.

Yeah, Auspex Tactics can sometimes feth up his wording with the amount of videos he pumps out everyday, it's a vehicle, not a jetbike, even though he states it is on the video. No big deal though, they're very strong either way.

Thank you for the correction. Still, I'm glad the two incomming Dexs are completely gonzo, it takes some of the heat off us. Now if we could just get Competitive players to stop maining Custodes for every single event, that would be great.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I will say the new Harly Jetbikes should take the heat off our jetbikes being OP for a month or two, if their rules stick. 90pts for a Heavy 2 S12 AP4 gun that does 3d3 damage, or 2d3 S5 AP3 D1 Blast, or it's Haywire Guns of 2d3 S4 AP3 3 damage shooting that wounds all vehicles on 4s, and does d3 MWs on 6s. And double D2 Shuriken cannons. Also has JSJ, a -1 to hit, and permanent Can't reroll to-hit rolls.

Anyone else ready for 10th?

Actually, if they are making that the new thing it would be a hilarious way for them to kill re-rolls.

I think you mean their transports from what you're describing? Only the Voidweaver can use the Prismatic Cannon, the Skyweavers can only bring the Haywire Cannon.

I am talking about this one, which he clearly stated was a Jetbike. If it's not, my bad, I don't know Harlequins, I was trusting that he did.

Yeah, Auspex Tactics can sometimes feth up his wording with the amount of videos he pumps out everyday, it's a vehicle, not a jetbike, even though he states it is on the video. No big deal though, they're very strong either way.

Thank you for the correction. Still, I'm glad the two incomming Dexs are completely gonzo, it takes some of the heat off us. Now if we could just get Competitive players to stop maining Custodes for every single event, that would be great.

As an Ork player, I know exactly how you feel given how quick and kneejerky the GW restrictions were when you make a splash on the tourney scene, people start REEEEing immediately, and Custodes with such a small range are much more suspectible to major changes. Unfortunately, Custodes are very tournament friendly precisely because of their small model count so I doubt people will abandon them any time soon.

Custodes are very vulnerable to nerfs because their range is small and their competitive range is... smaller.

that's why all the excessive "Oh not only nerf points but also make emperor's chosen trash and make all their strats cost triple" stuff is.... well... a lot.

The CP cost of the strategems are really poorly designed. 2 CP to EA for a unit of 5 Custodian Guard (215 points). 1 CP to EA for a unit of 4 Bikes (340 ponts) or a Telemon (260 points). Why not base the cost on PL like they used to?

So Harlequins at least seem to be a very strong army now. They have lots of shenanigans and can be harder to shift than their T3 bodies make them out to be...always - 1 to be hit in melee, often times - 1 to be wounded, no re-rolls allowed against a lot of stuff...the whole shebang of annoyance.
My point being that Emissaries Imperatus might be a rather good pick against them. Ignoring modifiers to hit and wound is actually really nice into the Murderclowns and always fight first is also super annoying to fight against.

Harlequins were tough in 8th so I'm not surprised they will be a strong contender in 9th.

Question for Auric weapons. Do relic weapons like veiled blade, gatekeeper, etc. count as Auric weapons? I ask because they took the time to specify Gnosis and Watcher's Ax but didn't list any of the relics. I would think the intention is that a relic which counts as a Sentinel Blade or Guardian Spear would be auric weapons.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Harlequins were tough in 8th so I'm not surprised they will be a strong contender in 9th.

Question for Auric weapons. Do relic weapons like veiled blade, gatekeeper, etc. count as Auric weapons? I ask because they took the time to specify Gnosis and Watcher's Ax but didn't list any of the relics. I would think the intention is that a relic which counts as a Sentinel Blade or Guardian Spear would be auric weapons.

My understanding would be yes, absolutely. Since Admonimortis or the Gatekeeper are just upgraded versions of the base Castellan Axe or Guardian Spear, it would make zero sense for them suddenly losing the Auric Weapon trait.

EightFoldPath wrote:
The CP cost of the strategems are really poorly designed. 2 CP to EA for a unit of 5 Custodian Guard (215 points). 1 CP to EA for a unit of 4 Bikes (340 ponts) or a Telemon (260 points). Why not base the cost on PL like they used to?

Because it's not supposed to promote taking mass blobs of shield guard.

It is supposed to promote taking smaller units.

Auric weapons are just a "type" it has nothing to do with Named weapons. For instance, Trajann's just using a really old Axe. Val is just using a really special spear. Named weapons still get Auric, unless otherwise specifically mentioned in the rules/abilities of said weapon. For instance, they haven't specifically said the Melta spears aren't auric. So it's generally allowed at my local. YMMV.

Tiberias wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Harlequins were tough in 8th so I'm not surprised they will be a strong contender in 9th.

Question for Auric weapons. Do relic weapons like veiled blade, gatekeeper, etc. count as Auric weapons? I ask because they took the time to specify Gnosis and Watcher's Ax but didn't list any of the relics. I would think the intention is that a relic which counts as a Sentinel Blade or Guardian Spear would be auric weapons.

My understanding would be yes, absolutely. Since Admonimortis or the Gatekeeper are just upgraded versions of the base Castellan Axe or Guardian Spear, it would make zero sense for them suddenly losing the Auric Weapon trait.

While it isn't logical I think it is RAW. There's just a list of 'this is auric', right?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Auric weapons are just a "type" it has nothing to do with Named weapons. For instance, Trajann's just using a really old Axe. Val is just using a really special spear. Named weapons still get Auric, unless otherwise specifically mentioned in the rules/abilities of said weapon. For instance, they haven't specifically said the Melta spears aren't auric. So it's generally allowed at my local. YMMV.

They don't HAVE to say the Melta Spears aren't Auric, as Auric is a list of weapons. If it isn't updated to be on the list, it isn't an Auric Weapon.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Auric weapons are just a "type" it has nothing to do with Named weapons. For instance, Trajann's just using a really old Axe. Val is just using a really special spear. Named weapons still get Auric, unless otherwise specifically mentioned in the rules/abilities of said weapon. For instance, they haven't specifically said the Melta spears aren't auric. So it's generally allowed at my local. YMMV.

They don't HAVE to say the Melta Spears aren't Auric, as Auric is a list of weapons. If it isn't updated to be on the list, it isn't an Auric Weapon.

I mean, if you want to be that way. Sure. Anything not on the list isn't Auric. That means Gnosis, The Gatekeeper, The Watchers axe, and the Veiled blade are not Auric. But they are, and I think it's silly to argue they aren't.

Does it have text saying “These weapons and any relics replacing them are Auric Weapons”?

It does.

Some rules refer to auric weapons. An auric weapon is any weapon from the list below, or any Relic that replaces such a weapon:

Castellan axe
Gnosis
Guardian spear
Sentinel blade
Watcher's Axe

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Auric weapons are just a "type" it has nothing to do with Named weapons. For instance, Trajann's just using a really old Axe. Val is just using a really special spear. Named weapons still get Auric, unless otherwise specifically mentioned in the rules/abilities of said weapon. For instance, they haven't specifically said the Melta spears aren't auric. So it's generally allowed at my local. YMMV.

They don't HAVE to say the Melta Spears aren't Auric, as Auric is a list of weapons. If it isn't updated to be on the list, it isn't an Auric Weapon.

I mean, if you want to be that way. Sure. Anything not on the list isn't Auric. That means Gnosis, The Gatekeeper, The Watchers axe, and the Veiled blade are not Auric. But they are, and I think it's silly to argue they aren't.

You are just not reading the rules correctly in this case. Gnosis and the Watchers Axe are specifically on the list. The other relics replace a standard guardian spear/sentinel blade etc. and thus count as Auric Weapons. The special Forgeworld spears are not standard guardian spears, but specifically Adrasite/Pyrithite Spears and therefore do not count as Auric Weapons, there is not really a discussion about that.
But if you houserule them as Auric Weapons then you do you, nobody can stop you from doing that and if the other people you are playing with are fine with it, then why not.

EightFoldPath wrote:
It does.

Some rules refer to auric weapons. An auric weapon is any weapon from the list below, or any Relic that replaces such a weapon:

Castellan axe
Gnosis
Guardian spear
Sentinel blade
Watcher's Axe

Thanks for catching that! I missed that sentence regarding relics when I was looking over the codex yesterday.

Venatari - no longer competitive? Or even worth considering? Clearly the bikes are a superior option at this point (we'll see what happens post nerf), but they still seem like a strong alternative to standard guard.

Would you all go full pistol or with the death of double shooting is throwing a spear in there appealing?

Mad_Proctologist wrote:
Venatari - no longer competitive? Or even worth considering? Clearly the bikes are a superior option at this point (we'll see what happens post nerf), but they still seem like a strong alternative to standard guard.

Would you all go full pistol or with the death of double shooting is throwing a spear in there appealing?

Personally I still like them. Like you said bikes are better, but they're going to get nerfed pretty soon in all likelihood. So maybe in some lists a space opens up for a 3man Venatari squad to do actions and be a fast moving threat.

Regarding loadout: in my opinion the lances come out ahead of the pistols. Yes, the pistol/buckler gives a 2+ save, but against most things that matter, we're on our invuln anyway. The spears offer almost the same shooting power and significantly better melee. I think the spears are worth a try.

Tiberias wrote:

Mad_Proctologist wrote:
Venatari - no longer competitive? Or even worth considering? Clearly the bikes are a superior option at this point (we'll see what happens post nerf), but they still seem like a strong alternative to standard guard.

Would you all go full pistol or with the death of double shooting is throwing a spear in there appealing?

Personally I still like them. Like you said bikes are better, but they're going to get nerfed pretty soon in all likelihood. So maybe in some lists a space opens up for a 3man Venatari squad to do actions and be a fast moving threat.

Regarding loadout: in my opinion the lances come out ahead of the pistols. Yes, the pistol/buckler gives a 2+ save, but against most things that matter, we're on our invuln anyway. The spears offer almost the same shooting power and significantly better melee. I think the spears are worth a try.

The Sound of models suddenly having their arms snapped off and replaced. Yeah, honestly the Venetari spear should be a Auric weapon, if they are keeping that Melee weapon but still a gun line of reasoning.

I honestly have to hand it to GW, they completely nerfed the FW line up without even touching them. Simply by making the Plastic ones absolutely bonkers good.

The dreadnoughts remain an easy staple. Tau suppress them more then the plastic range honestly

just had a game against new harlies in light saedeth.

Was pretty close but i came out on top.

Dice where absolutely insane in the bad and good with both of us having super swing turns.

Turns 1 and 2 i couldnt make a save and lost all my bikes (bike cap too) and both my grav tanks.

Turns 3 and 4 he couldnt make a single save and lost a 10 man player squad to morale (whole squad. I shot 4 dead, he failed morale, then the rest ran).

End of the game he had one death jester and a 5 man player unit left. I had 3 allarus, and 2 shield guard.

well that at least sounds like a nailbiter game in which both players got to have fun!
That such a thing still exists in 40k is a miracle

When the dice abandon both sides you can get some really fun and memorable games. Hopefully you're rematch gives a better idea on how Harlequins fare against Bikers.

I played a Space Marines list last weekend and gave EC a shot. Putting Dread-Host on Bikers for a turn was helpful dumping 36 AP-1 shots onto Marines before charging in. Although with the abundance of Melta & Plasma I didn't have much CP left to try out other subfactions with Esteemed Amalgm.

A Marine opponent did give Vigilators a chance to shine, putting out the same number and quality of attacks as a 3-man guard squad but at only half the price. They do stumble against Gravis armor but I positioned my Vigilators opposite the assault intercessors and my Guard squads towards the T5 enemies.

yeah it was interesting as I didnt have alot to work with so in turn 3 i actually popped salvus double shots off to let my 3 allarus terminators go ham into his players.

each one killed 3-4 in the shooting phase (then the morale thing happened). One got in melee and finished a squad off and took a key point for me as well.

Tiberias wrote:

Mad_Proctologist wrote:
Venatari - no longer competitive? Or even worth considering? Clearly the bikes are a superior option at this point (we'll see what happens post nerf), but they still seem like a strong alternative to standard guard.

Would you all go full pistol or with the death of double shooting is throwing a spear in there appealing?

Personally I still like them. Like you said bikes are better, but they're going to get nerfed pretty soon in all likelihood. So maybe in some lists a space opens up for a 3man Venatari squad to do actions and be a fast moving threat.

Regarding loadout: in my opinion the lances come out ahead of the pistols. Yes, the pistol/buckler gives a 2+ save, but against most things that matter, we're on our invuln anyway. The spears offer almost the same shooting power and significantly better melee. I think the spears are worth a try.

Seconding this. A spear trio (if you have the slot) does work, and they have just the level of hitting power they can clear out backfield MSU holders, so they have to be taken seriously. Of course they will draw fire due to this.

At best, they are a decent harrying unit, capable of skirmishing and pulling mobs off objectives. At Worst, they are a 3 wound model with a 3+4++, 4 s6 attacks, good S6 ap2 d2 shooting shooting, and T5. Depending on weapon choice they could have better shooting and armor, or better melee. Not Trajann level, but I would be surprised if they fall off the competitive table. They are still a really solid unit. Good luck finding points for them though.

I just read the recent goonhammer article on how to fix custodes and tau. I'd like to get my hands on what these guys are smoking. Several people suggested that you should only be able to use auspice once per turn, one even suggested to make it only once per unit per game.
What the feth are these guys talking about. Increasing the cost of at least one of our defensive strats...sure, I can totally get behind that. Increasing unit costs, especially on Trajann and the bikes? Absolutely! But that BS is just ridiculous. They act like auspice and transhuman affects our whole army, all the time. And having the gall to talk about the "baseline thoughness" of custodes pushing the strats over the top...what the feth are you talking about? Custodes are tough because of the stratagems...that's it. Everybody universally agrees that the game is too lethal, but turning off re-rolls...can't do that buddy. What a bunch of horsegak.

So true.

When I read that article, I was basically snorting back to back with "are you kidding me" mixed in.
Those were not reasonable takes at all.
Pts increases? Ok.
Emperor's chosen trait? MAYBE.
Esteemed amalgam going to once per shield host? Uh... I guess.
But moving auspex/arcane to 2cp/3cp althrough WITH further limits is just insane.

Especially since they increase Trajanns cost in the first place "because you have near unlimited CP" and then increase the CP so he is a MUST TAKE if you want to survive past T2.
Its ridiculous. Since Goonhammer let their resident idiot post the "I love tau, feth you, I get to have fun, I dont care about you"-article they lost all credibility for me.

 Thairne wrote:
So true.

When I read that article, I was basically snorting back to back with "are you kidding me" mixed in.
Those were not reasonable takes at all.
Pts increases? Ok.
Emperor's chosen trait? MAYBE.
Esteemed amalgam going to once per shield host? Uh... I guess.
But moving auspex/arcane to 2cp/3cp althrough WITH further limits is just insane.

Especially since they increase Trajanns cost in the first place "because you have near unlimited CP" and then increase the CP so he is a MUST TAKE if you want to survive past T2.
Its ridiculous. Since Goonhammer let their resident idiot post the "I love tau, feth you, I get to have fun, I dont care about you"-article they lost all credibility for me.

Goons isn't great for balancing. Wings is probably the closest most the time but even he seems a bit harsh both here and with Drukhari.

I realized they were a bit biased when they busted out the '95% confidence interval' to measure killing a Raider efficiently and then never used it again since (and didn't before either).

True.
When I started the article, I was finding myself grudingly nodding along. I'd even go and give Trajann a +40 to 200.

It's the most reasonable take of them all, although I feel once per turn-ing Auspice, or any change to that strat or AGA, should be very, very well considered and be very cautiously applied.

What I'd do is revert the CA pts changes, hike Trajann/additional +5 to salvos and see where this takes us for 3 months.

 Thairne wrote:
True.
When I started the article, I was finding myself grudingly nodding along. I'd even go and give Trajann a +40 to 200.

It's the most reasonable take of them all, although I feel once per turn-ing Auspice, or any change to that strat or AGA, should be very, very well considered and be very cautiously applied.

What I'd do is revert the CA pts changes, hike Trajann/additional +5 to salvos and see where this takes us for 3 months.

I am of a similar mind.

Yeah I agree. Start with points changes and go from there. Immediately messing with one of the factors that make the army work is almost never a good idea.
Are these so called experts too thick to understand that custodes are only tough (nowadays anyway) because they have access to these strats? And that if you nerf them too harshly too fast it can really hurt the faction?

Heck I could even live with emperors chosen going to a 5+ fnp against mortals, though I don't even think it's necessary...but almost everything they said about stratagems was complete, utter garbage....

Seriously though, we know how GW does this. Stats are always hottest at launch. We will be sent back down within the next 2-3 months. Keep yes Tellies warm, they will likely be our best units post our nerf beating.

Yeah I don't understand the article at all. If turning off rerolls for one unit for one phase somehow breaks the game, then the game itself is broken.

Emperor's Auspice is not the end-all be-all to game imbalance.

It's broken when the faction that does it is boasting a 50-60% win rate in competitive games. It's broken when it invalidates purchased re-rolls. Like, if you paid 400 points for a HQ that gives special re-rolls, and you turn those off, it shuts down a lot more than that one turn.

I don't want to make you angry, but everyone is grabbing pitchforks about this for a reason. It's not because our bikes are suddenly able to kill tanks.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It's broken when the faction that does it is boasting a 50-60% win rate in competitive games. It's broken when it invalidates purchased re-rolls. Like, if you paid 400 points for a HQ that gives special re-rolls, and you turn those off, it shuts down a lot more than that one turn.

I don't want to make you angry, but everyone is grabbing pitchforks about this for a reason. It's not because our bikes are suddenly able to kill tanks.

Sorry but that is not a good argument. Auspice existed before 9th and wasn't a problem. Shutting down rerolls is also not a problem, it's necessary for a very low model count army like custodes to survive in 9th. People are just salty playing against it because they are hypocrites. "The game is waay too lethal! But a hyper elite faction like custodes being able to shut down rerolls on one unit?! How dare they?! I want them to die as easily to my non Los shooting and ignoring invuln like everything else!"

Custodes are a problem because they are way too cost efficient right now. Nerfing custodes lists by 150-200 points is a good starting point...making auspice always cost 2cp is an additional measure I think would be ok, but not auspice AND transhuman. Saying auspice should be only once per turn in additional to increasing the cost or even better, once per game per unit is just beyond ridiculous.
I really don't understand why people get so hang up on that strat. We had it in 8th and turning off rerolls wasn't breaking anything back then. It's also one unit, people act like it's a rule that affects our whole army....bait the strat out and then blast something else. Threat saturation is really not that difficult in 9th with all that hyper deadly shooting.

My point being that the pitchfork wielding mob are usually idiots screeching for draconian nerfs because they are salty at the meta game. Understandably so I might add, Tau and Custodes are too strong, but that doesn't mean that those suggestions are good. Well, if the goal is to utterly stomp Custodes as a faction as retribution then yeah, those idiots at Goonhammer have some awesome ideas for sure.

I do think you are right on the One or the Other point, regarding Auspice and Transhuman, I would very much like to experience more wins with my Custodes before the end of 9th. Unfortunately, I have a local meta that is mostly Tau and DE, and the SM players basically don't come to the store anymore. I have basically 4 wins in this edition, all were cheese lists of all shields, back before our codex. Now I've created an all Bike list, but I'm honestly afraid to play it for fear of being That Guy (tm).

We are gonna take some lumps. GW doesn't like one faction getting above 50%. But I don't think we'll get nerfed in the way normal nerfs happen.

10th is basically almost here, with the remaining codex's already announced or soon to be revealed. Nids are here, Guard have been announced(?) and the last in the pipe are Chaos and Knights. I don't see how they keep anything the same, when Knights come out. They either have to Break the game to let knights win, or they have to completely go ham in power creep, where every knight has a Gatling Volcano Cannon and 16x Cogni-Heavy Stubbers with 28"Assault 6 S5 shooting. Then we will have our nerfs.; We'll be relagated to the dust bin in the wake of 9th edition Super Walker battles.

Tiberias wrote:

I really don't understand why people get so hang up on that strat. We had it in 8th and turning off rerolls wasn't breaking anything back then. It's also one unit, people act like it's a rule that affects our whole army....bait the strat out and then blast something else. Threat saturation is really not that difficult in 9th with all that hyper deadly shooting.

Completely agree. With the amount of highly lethal shooting in 9th it's easy to get around it, as soon as your Custodes opponent plays it then focus fire on a different unit. If you have no other units available to target then that's a positioning problem that needs to be corrected.

You don't think the fact that AGA and EA both cost 2CP in 8th is why people weren't moaning about it?

Thankflly it looks like Trajann's got some vital paperwork to fill out on Terra, so no need to cost him appropriately at 220 points anymore.

Well, now that we're limited to two units of bikes, I feel more justified in those Dreads I got. LOL... oh GW... hamfisted "fixes".

I just finished painting Trajaan last night...

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Well, now that we're limited to two units of bikes, I feel more justified in those Dreads I got. LOL... oh GW... hamfisted "fixes".

I just finished painting Trajaan last night...

I'd say it is fake! GW has never banned a unit for balance reasons in 8th or 9th not even the infamous broviathen which had a 82% win rate and was literly unbeatable for most lists.

Where did you hear about Trajann going up, or being limited to 2 units of bikes? Nothing on WarCom suggests such a thing has happened yet.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Where did you hear about Trajann going up, or being limited to 2 units of bikes? Nothing on WarCom suggests such a thing has happened yet.

Someone made a fake article and leaked it.
Those tidbits were in there.

So you might also notice the person who made it misspelled two major words.

Thank God that was fake. It sounded sooooo much like something GW would actually attempt. The writing was a particularly good fake.

I'm happy to embrace sensible nerfs though.

I actually think something like this, Not this drastic, has merit. I know Ro3 is just a suggestion, but this is simply an expansion of that. We already have it. Can you take more than 1 of any type of Shield Captain currently, ala 3 Bike Captains? No. This is the same thing.

My bet, this was partially real, but the leaker got stupid. I can see GW limiting most factions in this way. Ala, you should only be able to take a single Autarch of each type, or Farseer, etc. Same with Company Commanders, or SM Captains. It would be silly to have Sicarius, Calgar, and Bobby all commanding the same 5 squads of Intercessors and whatnot.

There should absolutely be a chain of command restriction. Are we really thinking Gaz would allow another 2 Warbosses in his Wahh party?

I guess one idea is that a single detachment can have only 1 single Named Character HQ model? I can see GW doing that.

Free daggers for Sagg, now officially confirmed:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/l7HMwjs20r7R53Gx.pdf

We are gonna need it vs clowns and eldar and probably Nids

 nordsturmking wrote:
Free daggers for Sagg, now officially confirmed:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/l7HMwjs20r7R53Gx.pdf

We are gonna need it vs clowns and eldar and probably Nids

That's neat. Thanks for sharing.

On another note: anyone seen the leaked Nids codex? Bugs got some cool new things to play with, they seem pretty strong. How do you think that matchup is going to be like?

Was there a debate on daggers? I guess I've just been house ruling it these last few weeks.

Not to rain on the parade, but the parade is now hordes of 9 (Supposedly) flying troops with S5 guns. Oh, and obsec. I really don't want to have to roll defensive rolls against 40+ shots of Fleshborers against my 3 Guardians. Here, just have the point, this is too boring.

Tiberias wrote:

 nordsturmking wrote:
Free daggers for Sagg, now officially confirmed:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/l7HMwjs20r7R53Gx.pdf

We are gonna need it vs clowns and eldar and probably Nids

That's neat. Thanks for sharing.

On another note: anyone seen the leaked Nids codex? Bugs got some cool new things to play with, they seem pretty strong. How do you think that matchup is going to be like?

Yes i have the codex, looks really strong. Screamer killer has 10A -3AP 3D hits on 3+

Tiberias wrote:

 nordsturmking wrote:
Free daggers for Sagg, now officially confirmed:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/l7HMwjs20r7R53Gx.pdf

We are gonna need it vs clowns and eldar and probably Nids

That's neat. Thanks for sharing.

On another note: anyone seen the leaked Nids codex? Bugs got some cool new things to play with, they seem pretty strong. How do you think that matchup is going to be like?

I think it's going to push us more towards Hurricane Bolters on bikes to clear out the bug swarms (unless you build around Dachatarai and have good timing). This will weaken us to the big monsters who still have -1 damage so I'm expecting Caladii to make a bit of a return with the high damage gun. This also helps in Custodes mirror matchups since you can put more shooting pressure on your opponent from farther away.

Depending the number of T6-7 critters I'd expect mixed Shield and Spears again if you were running basic Custodes as troops.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Depending the number of T6-7 critters I'd expect mixed Shield and Spears again if you were running basic Custodes as troops.

That's a tough one. If you're running troop heavy I definitely see it. If you're still leaning on bikes (S7, +1 to wound on the charge), spamming the comparatively cheap Allarus (S8 for axes) or taking Achillus/Galatus, you probably want to stick with shields. The point of the troops there is to be durable, not deadly. Definitely troop heavy build wants some spears though (and in that case I'd say just put one shield in each squad, two spears and pair them with Sag squads).

So with a good amount of time with the new book/missions, what is everyone's personal pool of secondaries you consider viable?

I've been running an Inquisitor for Psychic Interrogation recently, but want my points back, leaving me struggling to pick a third, generally comfy secondary outside To the Last, and Stranglehold

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
So with a good amount of time with the new book/missions, what is everyone's personal pool of secondaries you consider viable?

I've been running an Inquisitor for Psychic Interrogation recently, but want my points back, leaving me struggling to pick a third, generally comfy secondary outside To the Last, and Stranglehold

In my view, To The Last is very situational. I generally do:

Behind Enemy Lines (spend the 120 points for 2 1-man Allarus units, your Bikes can be back there T3 if the Allarus take casualties)
RND (Retrieve Nachmund Data) / Raise the Banners (if it's a 6 objective map)
No Prisoners / Assassinate / Abhor the Witch (whichever one scores the highest based on the situation as long as at least one of them can score 9 points)

Audustum wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Depending the number of T6-7 critters I'd expect mixed Shield and Spears again if you were running basic Custodes as troops.

That's a tough one. If you're running troop heavy I definitely see it. If you're still leaning on bikes (S7, +1 to wound on the charge), spamming the comparatively cheap Allarus (S8 for axes) or taking Achillus/Galatus, you probably want to stick with shields. The point of the troops there is to be durable, not deadly. Definitely troop heavy build wants some spears though (and in that case I'd say just put one shield in each squad, two spears and pair them with Sag squads).

The problem with Shields is that the plethora of AP-3 isn't wasted

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Audustum wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Depending the number of T6-7 critters I'd expect mixed Shield and Spears again if you were running basic Custodes as troops.

That's a tough one. If you're running troop heavy I definitely see it. If you're still leaning on bikes (S7, +1 to wound on the charge), spamming the comparatively cheap Allarus (S8 for axes) or taking Achillus/Galatus, you probably want to stick with shields. The point of the troops there is to be durable, not deadly. Definitely troop heavy build wants some spears though (and in that case I'd say just put one shield in each squad, two spears and pair them with Sag squads).

The problem with Shields is that the plethora of AP-3 isn't wasted

AP-3 doesn't cut it. Shield +1 adds on to Light Cover (either natural or banner). Gives you a 1D6+2 succeeding on a 2+. AP-3 applies a negative 3 modifier so you're rolling 1D6-1 and succeeding on a 2+. I.e. you get a 3+ save against AP-3. I'll take that over trying 4++'s on spears when the unit's goal is to be durable.

What I love is they set a new precedent! There is a weapon that even Morty can't save against. It's a crappy relic sword, but still. Any wounds this thing does CANNOT be saved, it's a new "ultra Mortal Wound". Great. So we have this now.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
So with a good amount of time with the new book/missions, what is everyone's personal pool of secondaries you consider viable?

I've been running an Inquisitor for Psychic Interrogation recently, but want my points back, leaving me struggling to pick a third, generally comfy secondary outside To the Last, and Stranglehold

I usually do Attrition, Raise Banners and Auric Mortalis. Behind enemy lines would be a good one if you're running a decent amount of deep strikers.

 nordsturmking wrote:
Free daggers for Sagg, now officially confirmed:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/l7HMwjs20r7R53Gx.pdf

We are gonna need it vs clowns and eldar and probably Nids

It's looking more and more like Sags are going to be my go-to troops unit.

At this point, I don't see how they aren't #1 Troop slot.

I already run three squads of Saggitarm, and now I almost want to try more.

Played a game last night vs death guard.

I went infantry spam heavy shooting msu to make the most of emperors chosen and play the objective game.
Me:
Trajan
Bike cap
Celexus assassin
2 x units of sags
1 x unit sword n board
Vexilla
3 x units of venatari (2 pistol 1 lance)

Him:
Plague caster
Tallyman
Plague spewer dude
2 close combat marine units
2 rhinos
Terminator blob
2 fleshmower drones

Custodes scored big early with aggressive movements. Flying obsec (venatari) allowed me to hold 2 and hold more immediately, sealing the game by t3.
Army wide -1 damage is really problematic, especially with the drones that are surprisingly good counters to our t5 2+/4++.
Bike captain failed a six inch charge, even with the reroll, but survived the counter charge from the terminators thanks to EA for shadowkeepers and AGA.
Venatari swept up marines and rhinos pretty effectively, but even with rendax struggled to put damage on the bloat drones. I can definitely see why people bring missile bikes instead. If I get some more I might try a list that plays both.
That said, venatari are super versatile and playing nine isn't a huge points investment (by custodian standards).

I'd be interested to try a list that plays an outrider detachment of bike cap 2 bike squads, 3 venatari and a vexilla to minimize first turn losses.

Yeah army wide -1 DMG is one of the easiest counters to our armies. Rendax is a good kata but there's definitely some luck involved, it does work pretty well with hurricane bolter bikes.

So anyone got any good anti-Harlequin tips? I'm facing off against a Halequin troop this weekend, and I'm just playing my Biker List. What really worries me is their new Sniper unit, I don't know if he's gonna be using 1-3, but I know he's bringing at least 1. I'm guessing with the Relic gun and the Warlord trait that gives him exploding 6s, and MW on 6s. With the Weaver of Fate thing he can auto-turn one of his misses into a 6. How do we counter snipers as Custodes? They bypass Look out sir, so Wardens are out. They have character targeting, I guess I'm just gonna park my captain behind a LOS terrain but within 6" of my shooters, and hope?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So anyone got any good anti-Harlequin tips? I'm facing off against a Halequin troop this weekend, and I'm just playing my Biker List. What really worries me is their new Sniper unit, I don't know if he's gonna be using 1-3, but I know he's bringing at least 1. I'm guessing with the Relic gun and the Warlord trait that gives him exploding 6s, and MW on 6s. With the Weaver of Fate thing he can auto-turn one of his misses into a 6. How do we counter snipers as Custodes? They bypass Look out sir, so Wardens are out. They have character targeting, I guess I'm just gonna park my captain behind a LOS terrain but within 6" of my shooters, and hope?

Snipers do not bypass the Warden bodyguard rule.

Tiberias wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So anyone got any good anti-Harlequin tips? I'm facing off against a Halequin troop this weekend, and I'm just playing my Biker List. What really worries me is their new Sniper unit, I don't know if he's gonna be using 1-3, but I know he's bringing at least 1. I'm guessing with the Relic gun and the Warlord trait that gives him exploding 6s, and MW on 6s. With the Weaver of Fate thing he can auto-turn one of his misses into a 6. How do we counter snipers as Custodes? They bypass Look out sir, so Wardens are out. They have character targeting, I guess I'm just gonna park my captain behind a LOS terrain but within 6" of my shooters, and hope?

Snipers do not bypass the Warden bodyguard rule.

Yeah, bodyguard rule isn't Look Out, Sir and currently blocks snipers.

That said, Emperor's Chosen Characters don't really care about Harlie snipers I think. Might want to take half your bikes as hurricane bolters to just plow the clown bodies down.

Explodo sniper actually is an issue for our characters. He wont flat out delete them, but he will chip 2-3 wounds off per turn which is an issue.

He gets 3 shots, but he makes one a 6 automatically which teslas into 3 hits and if he rolls a 6 those also tesla. So he's getting on average anywhere from 4-9 hits per turn on your characters with a str6 ap-1 gun.

He's one of their better options for dealing with us.

There's a Sniper that makes 3 shots? The Vindicare Assassin must be jealous

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
There's a Sniper that makes 3 shots? The Vindicare Assassin must be jealous

So the Death Jester has an upgrade where a roll of 6 to hit gets three shots. Combine the army ability to get 6s and it's fairly easily to kill a squad or weakened HQ.

Ok, so then Death Jester has a S6, Ap2 Dmg2 gun with 3 shots. He can get a pivotal role where 6s to hit are 3 extra hits and he is often played with a warlord trait where he can make one hit, wound or save a 6, which is then mostly used to turn a hit roll into a 6s, thus guaranteeing extra hits on one dice.

So he does what...about 4 damage to a custodes HQ? That's not bad really. But again, Wardens stop shooting him at HQs entirely, so it's not that bad I guess.

I don't think the Death Jester is a big problem for Custodes, but he can outright delete characters from other factions like Sisters and Admech.

You are all forgetting if he rolls a 6 THAT wound becomes an unstoppable wound. Even FNP is not allowed on it. It just goes through. So that's a thing. A New thing. Fun.

Granted this is all from the Auspex Tactics video review of his rules, but yeah, he can get a relic that makes him 3 flat damage I think, so that's a dead captain easily.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You are all forgetting if he rolls a 6 THAT wound becomes an unstoppable wound. Even FNP is not allowed on it. It just goes through. So that's a thing. A New thing. Fun.

Granted this is all from the Auspex Tactics video review of his rules, but yeah, he can get a relic that makes him 3 flat damage I think, so that's a dead captain easily.

Wait what rule is that again?

Tiberias wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You are all forgetting if he rolls a 6 THAT wound becomes an unstoppable wound. Even FNP is not allowed on it. It just goes through. So that's a thing. A New thing. Fun.

Granted this is all from the Auspex Tactics video review of his rules, but yeah, he can get a relic that makes him 3 flat damage I think, so that's a dead captain easily.

Wait what rule is that again?

]

Apparently it's Favor of Chegorogh (SP?) and it's 3 extra hits per 6, not ignores FNP. Excuse me. I was wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFS_CEmVXB8

Oh jesus. GW Rules team, go home, you're drunk.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/23/cook-up-your-space-marines-with-the-flick-of-a-switch-using-the-new-and-improved-fire-prism/