That was classic war-com. Write an underwhelming AF article about the new unit. Watch it turn out to have some very potent psychic attack that they just left off. Or maybe it will be the second coming of the Maleceptor, who debuted with some of the worst rules that GW has ever written back in 7th
I'd hope so. That's a lot of rules space on its datacard for two highly situational abilities, one of which is once per game, and the other doesn't matter unless the units in question get mauled down past half-strength AND you aren't otherwise supporting that attack with synapse creatures.
It better have a honking good mind-laser and some rider effects.
That was classic war-com. Write an underwhelming AF article about the new unit. Watch it turn out to have some very potent psychic attack that they just left off. Or maybe it will be the second coming of the Maleceptor, who debuted with some of the worst rules that GW has ever written back in 7th
I'd hope so. That's a lot of rules space on its datacard for two highly situational abilities, one of which is once per game, and the other doesn't matter unless the units in question get mauled down past half-strength AND you aren't otherwise supporting that attack with synapse creatures.
It better have a honking good mind-laser and some rider effects.
Well we saw it burn out the Librarian rather effortlessly in the trailer, so i guess it got at least some sort of psychic pulse, possibly with Devastating Wounds or something that bypasses saves.
I'd hope so. That's a lot of rules space on its datacard for two highly situational abilities, one of which is once per game, and the other doesn't matter unless the units in question get mauled down past half-strength AND you aren't otherwise supporting that attack with synapse creatures.
It better have a honking good mind-laser and some rider effects.
Being in synapse range is going to link to a bunch of other Tyranids abilities beyond just morale. We've already seen the Endless Multitude strat which restores twice as many models to units in synapse; this means you can fling hormagaunts further forwards and still replace any that fall.
I'd hope so. That's a lot of rules space on its datacard for two highly situational abilities, one of which is once per game, and the other doesn't matter unless the units in question get mauled down past half-strength AND you aren't otherwise supporting that attack with synapse creatures.
It better have a honking good mind-laser and some rider effects.
Being in synapse range is going to link to a bunch of other Tyranids abilities beyond just morale. We've already seen the Endless Multitude strat which restores twice as many models to units in synapse; this means you can fling hormagaunts further forwards and still replace any that fall.
But I'm sure it'll have a good mind laser too.
You could also use it to turn a unit of Neurogaunts into Synapse nodes, and get another 6'' out of it. If you e.g. want to have a suicide/chaff wave of gaunts that still are under synapse influence, for example.
I'm curious as to what'll make it different from a Neurothrope, though it won't surprise me if this is taking over the 'standalone psychic HQ' role and Neurothropes are getting relegated to a more minor character that attaches to Zoanthropes.
That was classic war-com. Write an underwhelming AF article about the new unit. Watch it turn out to have some very potent psychic attack that they just left off. Or maybe it will be the second coming of the Maleceptor, who debuted with some of the worst rules that GW has ever written back in 7th
I'd hope so. That's a lot of rules space on its datacard for two highly situational abilities, one of which is once per game, and the other doesn't matter unless the units in question get mauled down past half-strength AND you aren't otherwise supporting that attack with synapse creatures.
It better have a honking good mind-laser and some rider effects.
Reddit was peeing themselves over how good this thing was, earlier. Still haven't read the article, myself.
catbarf wrote: I'm curious as to what'll make it different from a Neurothrope, though it won't surprise me if this is taking over the 'standalone psychic HQ' role and Neurothropes are getting relegated to a more minor character that attaches to Zoanthropes.
I'm fully expecting the Neurothrope to just be a 'sergeant' model or upgrade inside a Zoanthrope brood, rather than a standalone character. That way we don't end up with undersized Zoanthrope units from a single box of models.
Siegfriedfr wrote: Calling it now : many immunities to battleshock tests will pop up when Codexes release
I kinda doubt it.
While moral mechanics in 8th and 9th were pretty awful, GW has shown a lot of restraint in immunity to moral mechanics since 7th edition. Large-scale immunity to mechanics seems to be one of the few problems they "get" from 7th edition. What I think we're likely to see is martial resistance. ATSKNF giving immunity to the "you might lose the entire squad when retreating" portion of battleshock would be a great way to bridge the OG rule with the current system. Or something where failing a test reduces a marine unit's total OC down to 1, but never zero.
I base this feeling primarily on the fact that Tyranid Synapse doesn't grant immunity to battleshock. So if one of the OG and most widely known examples of "you don't care about moral" is going to be effected by moral... I don't see many other things being unaffected.
I have to agree. Too many changes have been made to Leadership for me to imagine there will be very many if any instances of units immune to Battleshock.
Leadership Values are Worst
Historically Leadership resistant factions have no rules to improve their Leadership
Faction Historically immune to Leadership are no longer immune
It will be a welcome change to have Leadership be a meaningful part of the game for all factions. I hate it when a faction just ignores a section of the rules to their advantage.
Siegfriedfr wrote: Calling it now : many immunities to battleshock tests will pop up when Codexes release
There isn't any need for it.
Morale immunities happened in the first place because GW decided players thought routing units were 'unfun.'
8th and 9th just replaced that with the lose more mechanic, which really pummeled larger units and multiwound models.
Battleshock, on the other hand, doesn't affect a unit's ability to move, shoot and fight at all, just control objectives and get metagame buffs (they still benefits from leaders bonuses & etc). Since the units can still do stuff, and are only impacted on the strategic level, there isn't the push for immunity.
I don't think they removed routing because it was "unfun". I think they removed it because it was rules and time consuming. The Fallback and Regrouping rules took off 2 pages of the 6th Edition Rulebook. There was no space for that sort of rule in the 12 page 8th Edition rules, where morale is maybe 1/6 a page.
The Battleshock Morale rules sound like a much better rule that reduces lethality while impact unit efficiency.
Battle-shock doesn't represent fear, and I can't think of any things that should be immune to "temporary disorganization."
The Leadership characteristic isn't just shorthand for "bravery" anymore, it's a combination of, like, leadership, bravery, initiative, awareness, the ringing in your ears, standing up after you've been knocked down on your ass and remembering which direction you were pointing in, etc.
It's a much more interesting and comprehensive abstraction for the contingencies of warfare than the old Ld paradigm was, but the actual name of the characteristic is sort of vestigial now.
If we are taking that road, an Avatar shouldn't be able to fall back and probably wouldn't even care about some arbitrary objectives when there is stuff to kill.
I could see rather than fearless some "mindless/rage/insanity" USR that gives immunity to battleshock but also come with some quite heavy negatives to balance that immunity to represent stuff that doesn't care about morality nor cohesion, but also doesn't care about much else beyond killing and thus cannot control objectives nor fall back.
Mindless things are another good example of a unit that should be immune to battleshock (they're not so much above it, as beneath it!).
Combined with the new OC stat, it gives you a lot of flexibility. Imagine if Ripper and Scarab Swarms could really come in big swarm (sprue-limited unit choices be damned!) and were completely fearless... but also OC0.
So they couldn't hold objectives, but they're extremely tenacious and have to be dealt with to avoid being overrun.
H.B.M.C. wrote: At the same time, there are some things that really should be "Fearless".
I just don't see an Avatar suffering from "battle shock".
I'm thinking of it less as fear and more like confusion / cohesion / friction / uncontrolled rage.
Like necron warriors aren't scared of anything, but if things start going off plan they won't be as effective at doing what they were supposed to do.
Same with a sarge that provides situational awareness - without it the squad wouldn't be as effective.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote: Mindless things are another good example of a unit that should be immune to battleshock (they're not so much above it, as beneath it!).
Combined with the new OC stat, it gives you a lot of flexibility. Imagine if Ripper and Scarab Swarms could really come in big swarm (sprue-limited unit choices be damned!) and were completely fearless... but also OC0.
So they couldn't hold objectives, but they're extremely tenacious and have to be dealt with to avoid being overrun.
Yeah. Given what Battleshock does (can't hold objectives or use stratagems) I don't think anything should be immune.
Obviously some models should be harder to shock-GMan, Greater Daemons, Avatars, so on and so forth-but I don't think there's any model who can work perfectly in every situation with no error.
Edit: An OC 0 but fearless unit wouldn't actually matter much unless they had some killer Stratagem support.
I could see something like The Deceiver, tzeench character or a harlequin solitaire being a whole lot of mean but 0 OC. They are nasty in a fight, but have 0 bothers to give about what the rest of the galaxy thinks is important on this battlefield. Literally playing a different game then the rest, with their own goals and plans.
morganfreeman wrote: While moral mechanics in 8th and 9th were pretty awful, GW has shown a lot of restraint in immunity to moral mechanics since 7th edition. Large-scale immunity to mechanics seems to be one of the few problems they "get" from 7th edition. What I think we're likely to see is martial resistance. ATSKNF giving immunity to the "you might lose the entire squad when retreating" portion of battleshock would be a great way to bridge the OG rule with the current system. Or something where failing a test reduces a marine unit's total OC down to 1, but never zero.
I base this feeling primarily on the fact that Tyranid Synapse doesn't grant immunity to battleshock. So if one of the OG and most widely known examples of "you don't care about moral" is going to be effected by moral... I don't see many other things being unaffected.
I assure you, none of the editions you quoted had mechanics regarding the morals of your army - that's too high-falutin' a concept for GW's designers to try to implement, especially in a game with the likes of CSM/Daemons/Necrons/Orks, whose moral compass would be very tricky for your average person to understand and/or get behind.
Whilst not course we’re yet to play and thus put it into practical, Battleshock is really appealing to me.
Whilst it’s no longer deadly (at least, I don’t think we’ve seen anything thus far where Battleshock inflicts casualties?) it’s very disruptive, and something to perhaps be applied strategically.
Not being able to fall back is the least of concerns I’d say. Not being able to score (look I’m not going to make that joke. But here I am, confirming its existence) or benefit from Stratagems feels really useful, and potentially game winning.
Now we’ve seen a few ways of triggering it (kicking their head in, Shadow in the Warp, Rad Bombardment) but, outside of Synapse and the Brain Bug dropping enemy Ld for Shadow, few ways of interfering with those tests.
Call me Captain Obvious, but I reckon learning how to maximise Battleshock is gonna be a significant string to the bow of a competent player.
H.B.M.C. wrote: At the same time, there are some things that really should be "Fearless".
I just don't see an Avatar suffering from "battle shock".
While I agree with you, sometimes certain aspects of the lore should be fudged in order to make a more balanced and fun game.
Honestly, nothing in the game should be immune to a mechanic. Mess with it, sure. But even something as simple as making your warlord or a lord of war fearless would be a bit unfair--after all your going to get less use out of that playing a farseer or archon than you would with something like a kitted up smurf captain or Angron.
JNAProductions wrote: Yeah. Given what Battleshock does (can't hold objectives or use stratagems) I don't think anything should be immune.
Obviously some models should be harder to shock-GMan, Greater Daemons, Avatars, so on and so forth-but I don't think there's any model who can work perfectly in every situation with no error.
Edit: An OC 0 but fearless unit wouldn't actually matter much unless they had some killer Stratagem support.
However, a new detachment will mean new stratagems, so that's not a precedent to set.
That's how you end up with broken things later in the edition cycle.
alextroy wrote: I don't think they removed routing because it was "unfun". I think they removed it because it was rules and time consuming. The Fallback and Regrouping rules took off 2 pages of the 6th Edition Rulebook. There was no space for that sort of rule in the 12 page 8th Edition rules, where morale is maybe 1/6 a page.
The Battleshock Morale rules sound like a much better rule that reduces lethality while impact unit efficiency.
I think it was because falling back and losing control of your unit was considered unfun, and having to then regain control meant massive lost opportunity and time in a game where there are few turns. Way back in 2nd edition, games lasted only 4 turns, so if a unit fell back, it would spend the next turn rallying, in a best case scenario. That is a huge chunk of time that the unit is effectively disabled. If it did not rally and regroup, you might as well have written off the unit as it would have no time left to do anything.
Even if it makes sense from a rules or background perspective, I think GW concluded that removing player agency in that way made things unfun.
Shadow Walker wrote: So Dimachaeron and Malanthrope are going to Last Chance to Buy. Could it mean their plastics with the codex release?
Probably not, the malanthrope predates venomthropes & the modern haruspex iirc which it historically shared roles with in game/fluff. The Dima might be an indicator that there's a knight size melee gribble on the way.
Shadow Walker wrote: So Dimachaeron and Malanthrope are going to Last Chance to Buy. Could it mean their plastics with the codex release?
Probably not, the malanthrope predates venomthropes & the modern haruspex iirc which it historically shared roles with in game/fluff. The Dima might be an indicator that there's a knight size melee gribble on the way.
The Dimachaeron suffers from having one of the dumbest concepts in the entire game, and that concept not even being very visible in the model at all. I strongly suspect it only exists because the sculptor fell in love with one specific movie scene and wanted to have something like it in 40k. That being said, some sort of uber-Lictor glass cannon character slayer would be nice, but it need not be the Dimachaeron.
tneva82 wrote: What's with desire to retcon dominatrix? Leave dominatrix be dominatrix and come up with new unit for 40k scale.
And who has desire to retcon it? Was there ever any GW statement about it? I am genuinely curious.
GW has never said anything about it since Epic 40K.
Thing is GW never says anything about anything really unless they are going to make a model for it. Otherwise people debate and wishlist and hope and ponder.
tneva82 wrote: What's with desire to retcon dominatrix? Leave dominatrix be dominatrix and come up with new unit for 40k scale.
And who has desire to retcon it? Was there ever any GW statement about it? I am genuinely curious.
GW has never said anything about it since Epic 40K.
Thing is GW never says anything about anything really unless they are going to make a model for it. Otherwise people debate and wishlist and hope and ponder.
So no official statement about the retcon, and it is still there in fluff (Correct me if I am wrong but I think it was in 5th edition codex?). Looks like it could either stay fluff only or suprisingly released with the 10th.
And who has desire to retcon it? Was there ever any GW statement about it? I am genuinely curious.
The original Dominatrix was a titan scale model.
You either retcon it into the super heavy scale (like it happened to the Hierodule and kinda to the Hierophant) or it simply won't fit in standard 40k scale.
Ok, I get it. By retcon @tneva28 meant it being changed to being more playable piece in 40k scale rather than (what I thought) to be erased from the fluff (thus Nids fluff being retconed).
Shadow Walker wrote: Ok, I get it. By retcon @tneva28 meant it being changed to being more playable piece in 40k scale rather than (what I thought) to be erased from the fluff (thus Nids fluff being retconed).
That's pretty much what happened to Hierodules and Hierophants, they got shifted a size class down basically from where they were in both fluff and epic-scale models.
Pretty sure the Hierodules got pushed down several pegs. Then again when they originally came out they were huge, its just stuff has scaled up so that they are now heavy support size instead of knight size.
And to be fair its easy to scale the Tyranid stuff down like that when you wanted it in 40K and there wasn't any Epic game to expand their mid to super heavy model range.
It's one of my hopes that either Epic returning or AT finally leaving the HH era would let us see the design team go wild making new larger biotitans for Tyranids
Overread wrote: Pretty sure the Hierodules got pushed down several pegs. Then again when they originally came out they were huge, its just stuff has scaled up so that they are now heavy support size instead of knight size.
And to be fair its easy to scale the Tyranid stuff down like that when you wanted it in 40K and there wasn't any Epic game to expand their mid to super heavy model range.
It's one of my hopes that either Epic returning or AT finally leaving the HH era would let us see the design team go wild making new larger biotitans for Tyranids
Yeah, at the time they were at the edge of what Forgeworld was able to produce; these miniatures are almost 20 years old if you include the pre-release design time. Later releases profited a lot from better technology, notably computer-augmented design, while the Hierodules (unsure about the Hierophant) were still made in the classic 3up process. There's 10 years of development and investment between them and the FW Warlord titan.
Shadow Walker wrote: So Tau's Drones are now tokens. Will they do the same to our Spore Mines? Being untargetable is good by I prefer them to have stats.
They might go from things people never take to things people can't take!
Shadow Walker wrote: So Tau's Drones are now tokens. Will they do the same to our Spore Mines? Being untargetable is good by I prefer them to have stats.
They might go from things people never take to things people can't take!
Yeah, with GW it could be possible BTW I think we are on our way to tokenology as Neurotyrant's little friends are sadly just that.
I could see them going either way. I liked the option to stand back and toss some shots into them to clear the path, but could accept that they are basicly one shot dangerous terrain markers that you eat damage if you get near.
So the Orks focus tells about big mobs of 20 boyz, and the Leviathan/Combat Patrol gives us 20 Termas. My thoughts are that our broods are going to be smaller this edition.
In the new lore vid on warhammer tv is a picture artwork of a norn emissary fighting trajann valoris. Its actually a huge new unit. Hidden in plain sight. Its towards the end of the vid. 4th tyrannic wars. They callbit "colossal".
Shadow Walker wrote: So the Orks focus tells about big mobs of 20 boyz, and the Leviathan/Combat Patrol gives us 20 Termas. My thoughts are that our broods are going to be smaller this edition.
Yeah, I won't be surprised if it's squads of 10-20. Might be GW wanting to preserve the 'horde' feel, but limit how many eggs you can stack in one basket with respect to stratagems and buffs.
I think its also about not repeating one of the mistakes of Old World and constantly increasing hoard sizes until some armies have such a huge unit count it acts as a barrier to entry to newbies; or even if they do step in they burn out faster.
It's a balance and GW are in a robust position because they've heavily marketed Killteam and other smaller format games to soften the blow of big armies as a thing. However it doesn't hurt to adjust every so often.
That said it might be boyz are in mobs of 20 but things like gaunts and gits could still be in squads of 40. Ergo two boxed sets.
GW is very keen right now to pair rules to box contents like that.
Nagzahn wrote: In the new lore vid on warhammer tv is a picture artwork of a norn emissary fighting trajann valoris. Its actually a huge new unit. Hidden in plain sight. Its towards the end of the vid. 4th tyrannic wars. They callbit "colossal".
Does this thing have a human(oid...ish) arm? I can see how a designer might include that as a creepy horror element but it'd be kinda weird.
Nagzahn wrote: In the new lore vid on warhammer tv is a picture artwork of a norn emissary fighting trajann valoris. Its actually a huge new unit. Hidden in plain sight. Its towards the end of the vid. 4th tyrannic wars. They callbit "colossal".
Looks like a bigger HT. Not a fan of it, especially ''human'' hands, but need to see the entire creature to judge it properly. Was it officialy named ''Norn Emissary'' there or is it still a fan name given to some rumoured LoW level creature?
Nagzahn wrote: In the new lore vid on warhammer tv is a picture artwork of a norn emissary fighting trajann valoris. Its actually a huge new unit. Hidden in plain sight. Its towards the end of the vid. 4th tyrannic wars. They callbit "colossal".
Looks like a bigger HT. Not a fan of it, especially ''human'' hands, but need to see the entire creature to judge it properly. Was it officialy named ''Norn Emissary'' there or is it still a fan name given to some rumoured LoW level creature?
I'd take bets that it is a down-scaled, reimagined and PG13-ified take on the Dominatrix, and has some sort of brain-parasite or whatever on the back. They seem to go for the 'These are actually multiple creatures horribly fused together'-look in this iteration (e.g. Shirleygaunts, Neurogaunts), displaying that on a centrepiece/LOW would make sense.
Overread wrote: I never got one but I'm fairly sure it was Reaver Height?
So yeah to bring it into 40K it would be a pretty huge model to put on the table.
So yep either you change it in size or just release something new.
It's nowhere near the height of a Reaver. It's maybe 60% of the mass. It's only the height of a Knight, but it is fairly chonky by Tyranid standards, and a lot would depend on how much of that mass of armour panels was kept versus making it more spindly like the bio-titans.
I think it's still too big for a GW plastic kit (I'd consider it to be about the mass of a Thunderhawk or maybe a Warhound, but GW still seems to think that is too big to pull the plastic lever for - and a plastic Thunderhawk would definitely sell better), but we wouldn't be talking a titan really.
I'd struggle to describe making it smaller as a retcon - they are substantial, but the scaling on the old Nid Epic line is absolutely all over the place. Carnifexes and Trygons are enormous in comparison to the 40k range, and if you scaled by them a Dominatrix would be well within the range of a Baneblade sized kit.
Nagzahn wrote: In the new lore vid on warhammer tv is a picture artwork of a norn emissary fighting trajann valoris. Its actually a huge new unit. Hidden in plain sight. Its towards the end of the vid. 4th tyrannic wars. They callbit "colossal".
Looks like a bigger HT. Not a fan of it, especially ''human'' hands, but need to see the entire creature to judge it properly. Was it officialy named ''Norn Emissary'' there or is it still a fan name given to some rumoured LoW level creature?
Officially named Norn Emissary. It sounded like an assassin of some kind. With the ability to track down enemy leaders through psychic trailing. The assassin aspect sounds a bit like dimachaeron.
Nagzahn wrote: In the new lore vid on warhammer tv is a picture artwork of a norn emissary fighting trajann valoris. Its actually a huge new unit. Hidden in plain sight. Its towards the end of the vid. 4th tyrannic wars. They callbit "colossal".
Looks like a bigger HT. Not a fan of it, especially ''human'' hands, but need to see the entire creature to judge it properly. Was it officialy named ''Norn Emissary'' there or is it still a fan name given to some rumoured LoW level creature?
Officially named Norn Emissary. It sounded like an assassin of some kind. With the ability to track down enemy leaders through psychic trailing. The assassin aspect sounds a bit like dimachaeron.
It would explain why the dimachaeron went oop despite being a recent sculpt.
I'm going to need a way bigger bookshelf for my nids it seems because I've just ran out of space only barely managing enough for the kitbashed flyrant im working on dangit.. and those brainbirds look chirping wicked.
Anyway, considering I'm working with the Hive tyrant box right now I don't see anything new on that "emissary" unit, as its stabby arms are an option for either HT build and we all know HT's can be outfitted with whatever (including empty arms from kitbashes) and still count toward having all weapons.
So I'm with the opinion its simply a bigger HT (and therefor possibly a rerelease of a HT?)
Nagzahn wrote: In the new lore vid on warhammer tv is a picture artwork of a norn emissary fighting trajann valoris. Its actually a huge new unit. Hidden in plain sight. Its towards the end of the vid. 4th tyrannic wars. They callbit "colossal".
Looks like a bigger HT. Not a fan of it, especially ''human'' hands, but need to see the entire creature to judge it properly. Was it officialy named ''Norn Emissary'' there or is it still a fan name given to some rumoured LoW level creature?
Officially named Norn Emissary. It sounded like an assassin of some kind. With the ability to track down enemy leaders through psychic trailing. The assassin aspect sounds a bit like dimachaeron.
It would explain why the dimachaeron went oop despite being a recent sculpt.
The Dimachaeron is like... 10 years old, i'd not exactly call that 'recent'
Nagzahn wrote: In the new lore vid on warhammer tv is a picture artwork of a norn emissary fighting trajann valoris. Its actually a huge new unit. Hidden in plain sight. Its towards the end of the vid. 4th tyrannic wars. They callbit "colossal".
Looks like a bigger HT. Not a fan of it, especially ''human'' hands, but need to see the entire creature to judge it properly. Was it officialy named ''Norn Emissary'' there or is it still a fan name given to some rumoured LoW level creature?
Officially named Norn Emissary. It sounded like an assassin of some kind. With the ability to track down enemy leaders through psychic trailing. The assassin aspect sounds a bit like dimachaeron.
It would explain why the dimachaeron went oop despite being a recent sculpt.
The Dimachaeron is like... 10 years old, i'd not exactly call that 'recent'
I'm getting older making time wibbly-wobbly, plus there's not many forgeworld sculpts newer for 40k?
Nagzahn wrote: In the new lore vid on warhammer tv is a picture artwork of a norn emissary fighting trajann valoris. Its actually a huge new unit. Hidden in plain sight. Its towards the end of the vid. 4th tyrannic wars. They callbit "colossal".
Looks like a bigger HT. Not a fan of it, especially ''human'' hands, but need to see the entire creature to judge it properly. Was it officialy named ''Norn Emissary'' there or is it still a fan name given to some rumoured LoW level creature?
Officially named Norn Emissary. It sounded like an assassin of some kind. With the ability to track down enemy leaders through psychic trailing. The assassin aspect sounds a bit like dimachaeron.
It would explain why the dimachaeron went oop despite being a recent sculpt.
The Dimachaeron is like... 10 years old, i'd not exactly call that 'recent'
I'm getting older making time wibbly-wobbly, plus there's not many forgeworld sculpts newer for 40k?
The last part is sadly very true, there has been only a handful of 40k-specific sculpts from FW in the last decade. And practically none in the last five years, the Primaris Gravtank and not much else. Heresy train gonna keep a'rollin.
Nagzahn wrote: In the new lore vid on warhammer tv is a picture artwork of a norn emissary fighting trajann valoris. Its actually a huge new unit. Hidden in plain sight. Its towards the end of the vid. 4th tyrannic wars. They callbit "colossal".
Looks like a bigger HT. Not a fan of it, especially ''human'' hands, but need to see the entire creature to judge it properly. Was it officialy named ''Norn Emissary'' there or is it still a fan name given to some rumoured LoW level creature?
Officially named Norn Emissary. It sounded like an assassin of some kind. With the ability to track down enemy leaders through psychic trailing. The assassin aspect sounds a bit like dimachaeron.
It would explain why the dimachaeron went oop despite being a recent sculpt.
The Dimachaeron is like... 10 years old, i'd not exactly call that 'recent'
I'm getting older making time wibbly-wobbly, plus there's not many forgeworld sculpts newer for 40k?
The last part is sadly very true, there has been only a handful of 40k-specific sculpts from FW in the last decade. And practically none in the last five years, the Primaris Gravtank and not much else. Heresy train gonna keep a'rollin.
AoS got a set of alternate heads for stormcast and then their entire line gutted over a few years to nothing. The recent sudden pass which pulled all the old demon models out (very sad over that one) was the last AoS stuff remaining.
But yeah FW hasn't made much for the 40K nor AoS lines in a long long while. A few things here and there, but as the recent removals shows; we are mostly losing FW stuff not gaining. I think in part its because 40K can do most of the models FW used to do in plastic now; at least in size. It's not until you get to Reaver Titans and such that FW comes into its own, but that's a super niche line.
We can hope that many of the kits get GW counterparts in plastic; heck sometimes they are pretty awesome plastics (even if they might lack some of the super fine details that resin can still beat plastic on). But its always a gamble.
And yeah the Dimachaeron wasn't super new, but it was the newest of the Tyranid range.
Got to admit it and the Malanthrope being removed were odd; possibly the most popular and affordable choices in the Tyranid FW line.
Again we can hope it means GW might be releasing plastic versions, but considering how long GW can sometimes take to release models and how sometimes their design is haphazard in what comes out (Tyranids really hsouldn't have boivores and lictors and pyrovores in resin today!) it could be years before we see them. Fingers crossed we see them!
This summary of the latest Loremasters episode might be of interest:
- A number of worlds in the fringe started disappearing. The two sectors these worlds were located in were being invaded by an Ork Waaagh! and obscured by a Warpstorm so that the Imperium didn't pay attention to worlds getting quiet, A fleet from the Adeptus Arbites was sent to enforce the tithe of these silenced worlds. It turns out it's Tyranids—lots of them. The Arbites fleet was consumed without being able to fight back properly.
- One of the sector's command suffered casualties when their high astropath was flooded with thousands of distress calls. He exploded into manifestations of screaming faces and claws that slew many before they were banished. Also, the sectors were invaded by a Votann force. This served to slow the Imperial response to the Tyranids.
- Leviathan isn't the only fleet threatening Segmentum Solar. Tendrils from the minor Hive Fleet Scylla and Charybdis are worming their way in the Segmentum
- Tales of Tyranids being easy to defeat spread in the Imperium for some reason. Even high figures consider the Tyrannic Wars to be minor. Attempts were made to refute these tales since, despite being morale boosters, they were dangerous misinformation.
- Imperials identified the threat as a new invasion from Leviathan. Two tendrils, one came from above, and the other came from below the galactic plane, that were coordinated and pushing eastward to Segmentum Solar
- News of the Tyranid advance was brought to the High Lords by Custodes spies. Custodes Valoris forced them to act.
- Despite the Imperium's resources stretched out by the demands of the Primarch's Crusade and the fight against Chaos, the High Lords ordered a great mustering of Imperial Guard forces to respond to the Tyranid threat. It would take some time to arm and marshal these forces, so the Imperials created the Solblades fleets. These warriors are meant to slow the Tyranid advance by surgical strikes and holding key locations.
- The Solblades were made from elite forces from the Space Marines, Custodes, Sisters of Battle, Admech, and Knight Houses. They were granted autonomy to pursue the agenda in whatever way they saw fit. Among the heroes that joined the Solblades are Lord Solar Leontus, Volaris, and Captain Agemmon
- The Solblades acted as both a spear thrust and a shield by creating anchor worlds that would serve as a bulwark against the Tyranid advance and resupply stations
- The Solblades achieved some success, but the emergence of the third Leviathan tendril overshadowed that and proved that the Solblades' efforts wouldn't be enough to stop the Tyranids. The third tendril came from below the plane to encircle some of the Solblade fleets and cut them from their supply lines. Several worlds, including one belonging to the Votann, were consumed by the Tyranids before the Imperium could react.
- In response to this development, Lord Solar enacted the Sanctuary protocol. The resources of the anchor worlds and the forces of the Solblades were ordered to be gathered in the Sanctuary systems.
- The Imperium wasn't the only faction to respond to the Tyranid threat. Xenos factions, both minor and major, fought back against the Tyranids; this included the Hrud, the Necrons, Aeldari from every corner of the galaxy, and forces from the Leagues of Votaan.
- Most of the Imperial Fist forces were deployed to support the Primarch's Crusade, and a single force was somewhere in the galactic north crusading. So the Imperial Fists couldn't commit anything but a few of their strike forces to the battle. However, the Fists fortified asteroids in the systems and named them Dorn's Wall, as well as committing the Phalanx to the war.
- The Imperials won engagement after engagement against the Tyranids in both space and planetside. However, each battle depleted the Imperial forces
- Relief finally came in the form of Solblades fleets carrying Valoris and the Custodes. Valoris engaged a colossal Tyranid bioform called a Norn Emissary. The creature was tracking the psychic scent of Lord Solar, seeking to hunt him down and assassinate him. Valoris slew the beast in single combat.
- Thus, Imperium narrowly avoided a horrific defeat. However, the Sanctuary worlds are infested with Tyranids. Waves of Tyranids continuously attack the Anchor worlds. The three tendrils continue their advance toward Segmentum Solar. The 4th Tyrannic War is far from over.
- Imperial scholar debate whether the Orks, Chaos or the Necrons are the greatest threat to the galaxy. Perhaps It's the Tyranids. The Tyranids are the most adaptive enemy faced by the Imperium with Leviathan, particularly swarming with novel deadly bioforms, and the recent invasion proves that the Tyranids are starting to encircle the galaxy. They are like the maws of a gigantic predator closing on the galaxy, intending to consume all life.
Dudeface wrote: That there is a strong hint that the rumours were correct and a big bug is on the way.
I think that is clear since we saw it (partially) appear in Artwork, that scene with Valoris killing it had art in the video, probably a cut-out of a larger artwork. It's in this thread, last page or the page before i think.
The Saurus Warriors are US $60, which is pretty standard for a 3-sprue kit. However, I did notice the older US$60 are £35. Looks like a bit of UK Inflation.
Valoris engaged a colossal Tyranid bioform called a Norn Emissary. The creature was tracking the psychic scent of Lord Solar, seeking to hunt him down and assassinate him. Valoris slew the beast in single combat.
Plot armor is all fun and games, but man that does the opposite of exciting me for any potential big bug release. New big, colossal, creature that can psychically scent characters and hunt them down as their sole creation purpose? Would be a shame that any schmuck could intercept it and solo it in combat wouldn't it?
Now Trajann is not necessarily your run-of-the-mill schmuck, but he's not some god-tier level guy either. If you are telling me that this is what can bring down the new "big beastie", then it's quite dire indeed.
GW has always been bad at creating tension for their characters, or the setting in general, but reading the above make it way worse. Maybe I'm just too invested in my Nids and I don't like them being those Saturday morning villains and stuff
Valoris engaged a colossal Tyranid bioform called a Norn Emissary. The creature was tracking the psychic scent of Lord Solar, seeking to hunt him down and assassinate him. Valoris slew the beast in single combat.
Plot armor is all fun and games, but man that does the opposite of exciting me for any potential big bug release. New big, colossal, creature that can psychically scent characters and hunt them down as their sole creation purpose? Would be a shame that any schmuck could intercept it and solo it in combat wouldn't it?
Now Trajann is not necessarily your run-of-the-mill schmuck, but he's not some god-tier level guy either. If you are telling me that this is what can bring down the new "big beastie", then it's quite dire indeed.
GW has always been bad at creating tension for their characters, or the setting in general, but reading the above make it way worse. Maybe I'm just too invested in my Nids and I don't like them being those Saturday morning villains and stuff
If Trajann fights with the Shackle active for offense, he gets 12 attacks, 10 hits at S10 AP-2 D3.
That'll do 6-7 wounds to a Carnifex, failing 3 more often than not, for a not dead Carnifex. Sometimes he'll get a little lucky and one-round a Carnifex, though.
A Screamer-Killer, meanwhile, gets 10 attacks, 6-7 hits at S10 AP-2 D3.
That'll do 4-5 wounds, failing 2 saves usually for 4 damage after the FNP. But a little luck and the Carnifex kills Trajann in one round.
Screamer Killer is Output 1.
Trajann is Output 2.
Trajann with 12 attacks is Output 3.
Ka'tah are not accounted for, because I forgot about them till now.
Trajann is killed 22.73% of the time in one round. Two rounds or two Screamer Killers kill him 70.12% of the time.
Trajann kills only 5.42% of the time with 6 attacks, and 43.82% of the time with 12.
In other words, I wouldn't take this cinematic as evidence of any rules.
Recalculate that fight with Trajann being smart enough to give the Screamer-Killer a -1 to Hit until he is confident enough he will kill into switch to Lethal Wounds. I suspect the fight will quickly get close to a coin flip.
One downside of being a "faceless" army of infinite numbers is every time GW wants a character to look really tough - they go rough up a few Tyranids :(
Overread wrote: One downside of being a "faceless" army of infinite numbers is every time GW wants a character to look really tough - they go rough up a few Tyranids :(
I have an image of a battered hive tyrant and the avatar of khaine sitting at a bar, drowning their sorrows and commiserating.
On the other hand, he's the head of the Adeptus Custodes, and Custodes are a cut above everything except high-level Halris... and Trajann is their leader, and therefore better than even them.
If we're talking about power-house fighters in the Imperium, it's basically him or Primarchs that should be fighting threats like this 1-on-1.
Valoris engaged a colossal Tyranid bioform called a Norn Emissary. The creature was tracking the psychic scent of Lord Solar, seeking to hunt him down and assassinate him. Valoris slew the beast in single combat.
Worth pointing out here that this last line has been ad-libbed and is not a direct quote from WH+.
The narrator says that Trajann 'personally engaged' the creature, then there's no further details other than the artwork of it fighting several custodes. It then skips to a line about how the Imperium avoided defeat by the narrowest of margins.
It's left fairly vague and open as to what transpired in the fight. Perhaps Trajann killed this new bug singlehandedly, perhaps it slew 100 Custodes and Valoris was the only survivor.
Valoris engaged a colossal Tyranid bioform called a Norn Emissary. The creature was tracking the psychic scent of Lord Solar, seeking to hunt him down and assassinate him. Valoris slew the beast in single combat.
Plot armor is all fun and games, but man that does the opposite of exciting me for any potential big bug release. New big, colossal, creature that can psychically scent characters and hunt them down as their sole creation purpose? Would be a shame that any schmuck could intercept it and solo it in combat wouldn't it?
Now Trajann is not necessarily your run-of-the-mill schmuck, but he's not some god-tier level guy either. If you are telling me that this is what can bring down the new "big beastie", then it's quite dire indeed.
GW has always been bad at creating tension for their characters, or the setting in general, but reading the above make it way worse. Maybe I'm just too invested in my Nids and I don't like them being those Saturday morning villains and stuff
You're absolutely correct. The way GW writes lore about the Tyranids often has them come off as...annoying instead of deadly. Like I can just see the High Lords of Terra, upon hearing the news, let out out a dramatic sigh and react like a child hearing the news that they have to do their homework before they can watch TV that they now have to deal with the Tyranids again--didn't they just deal with them last week?
There's no back and forth, no subtlety or tactics from the Tyranids, it's just the Imperium winning every battle but whoops, Tyranids have numbers, so they just keep going. Which is fine, if those numbers are used smartly instead of like a noobie RTS player just attack-moving as many T1 units at a problem as they could. But just when it looks like the Tyranids might win and actually have an impact on the larger narrative outside of Iyanden, there's some psyker shenanigans neutering them, or a battleship exploding to take out their primary hive ship, some super awesome space marine and/or custodes taking out the biggest bug, or a galaxy spanning warpstorm showing up that just happens to ruin the tyranids' day.
Unfortunately, the narrative nature of the Tyranids is that they're either in the ascent--consuming, multiplying, and being a galaxy wide threat--or not, being mostly passive and annoying or hanging around for whenever GW needs an unambiguous badguy to show how awesome the good guys are. Tyranids don't hold worlds or territory; they just consume, so there's not a good way for them to be attacked strategically. Even Chaos Space Marines, with the bulk of their forces hiding in the Eye for ten thousand years like wimps, had worlds outside that could be attacked and sieged by the Imperium.
So it's kind of funny that even when GW looks like they'll be introducing a new super unit, they're pre-conditioning the Tyranid players to expect to lose.
You're absolutely correct. The way GW writes lore about the Tyranids often has them come off as...annoying instead of deadly. Like I can just see the High Lords of Terra, upon hearing the news, let out out a dramatic sigh and react like a child hearing the news that they have to do their homework before they can watch TV that they now have to deal with the Tyranids again--didn't they just deal with them last week?
There's no back and forth, no subtlety or tactics from the Tyranids, it's just the Imperium winning every battle but whoops, Tyranids have numbers, so they just keep going. Which is fine, if those numbers are used smartly instead of like a noobie RTS player just attack-moving as many T1 units at a problem as they could. But just when it looks like the Tyranids might win and actually have an impact on the larger narrative outside of Iyanden, there's some psyker shenanigans neutering them, or a battleship exploding to take out their primary hive ship, some super awesome space marine and/or custodes taking out the biggest bug, or a galaxy spanning warpstorm showing up that just happens to ruin the tyranids' day.
The opening animation to this edition is literally all about the Imperium repeatedly losing world after world to the Tyranids. Then they evacuate defenders from a bunch more worlds in order to barely stop one tendril and that's 'winning every battle'?
What specific impact do you expect Tyranids to have on the larger narrative, keeping in mind that:
a) they're never going to kill off any mortal named characters unless GW decide to discontinue the model (rip yarrick), and
b) they're not going to wipe out the Blood Angels, Ultramaines, or any other established group people actively buy models for
Even the best case scenario is that we destroy some major location like Cadia. But then GW still wants to sell Cadian models, so Cadian guardsmen are just recruited elsewhere and the narrative continues.
So it's kind of funny that even when GW looks like they'll be introducing a new super unit, they're pre-conditioning the Tyranid players to expect to lose.
The same situation just happened to the Imperium though. Their 'super-unit' Primarch returned, "killed" his brother to no effect because Angron always comes back, then still failed to prevent Chaos from achieving their main objective.
It's the nature of a setting like this where everyone has to lose battles. At a certain point Tyranids kinda... have to be stopped, or there's no more setting. The same applies to every other faction.
As much as we joke (?) about everyone except Marines being NPC factions, the Tyranids truly are an NPC faction. They have no characters or personalities (and hopefully never will), and we never see anything from their point of view. The Hive Mind is supremely intelligent, malevolent even, but it is also animalistic and instinctual. It has a very firm goal and sets its entire being towards the completion of that goal. It doesn't compete against itself. There are no petty rivalries, jealousy, heroism, or politics. No Tyranid organisms ever struggle with self-doubt or fear, nor arrogance or bravado. The Tyranids have nothing to prove and have no concerns with revenge or wounded pride anything like that.
So, as a byproduct of that, they make a good foe to 'defeat' without any real consequences. Lion vs Angron was silly because obviously they weren't going to kill the Lion just as he appeared, and they set Angron up so he can be killed over and over again with no consequences. Having Ragnar and Ghaz kill one another only for them both to immediately come back was equally as dumb. Whenever you involve larger than life (and persistent) characters, having them get beaten over and over again diminishes their mystique, their threat-level, and how important they are to the setting, and it lowers the stakes. How many years did people call Abaddon "Failbaddon", for launching big offensives and then running away screaming "I'll get next time Gadget! Next time!".
The Tyranids don't have this problem. They can be defeated a thousand times over and just come back with a bigger wave. You can't diminish a prominent Tyranid as there are no prominent Tyranids. Even the Swarmlord isn't a singular entity. They are a true faceless enemy - an NPC faction - so expect them to be used as punching bags just as much as they overwhelm and destroy uncountable worlds.
And never forget that the fluff in 40k is arbitrary. It can be shifted, chopped and changed to fit whatever thing GW needs it to - the Doom of Malan'tai being perhaps the best Tyranid-related example of this - so they can turn around and make Tyranids hyper-effective tomorrow, and being beaten back en masse the next.
H.B.M.C. wrote: As much as we joke (?) about everyone except Marines being NPC factions, the Tyranids truly are an NPC faction. They have no characters or personalities (and hopefully never will), and we never see anything from their point of view. The Hive Mind is supremely intelligent, malevolent even, but it is also animalistic and instinctual. It has a very firm goal and sets its entire being towards the completion of that goal. It doesn't compete against itself. There are no petty rivalries, jealousy, heroism, or politics. No Tyranid organisms ever struggle with self-doubt or fear, nor arrogance or bravado. The Tyranids have nothing to prove and have no concerns with revenge or wounded pride anything like that.
This rubicon has already been crossed (stupidly). The Hive Mind has feelings now. I'm expecting worse lore to follow during the next few months/years of Tyranids being more face-forward in the grand narrative of the galaxy.
H.B.M.C. wrote: As much as we joke (?) about everyone except Marines being NPC factions, the Tyranids truly are an NPC faction. They have no characters or personalities (and hopefully never will), and we never see anything from their point of view. The Hive Mind is supremely intelligent, malevolent even, but it is also animalistic and instinctual. It has a very firm goal and sets its entire being towards the completion of that goal. It doesn't compete against itself. There are no petty rivalries, jealousy, heroism, or politics. No Tyranid organisms ever struggle with self-doubt or fear, nor arrogance or bravado. The Tyranids have nothing to prove and have no concerns with revenge or wounded pride anything like that.
This rubicon has already been crossed (stupidly). The Hive Mind has feelings now. I'm expecting worse lore to follow during the next few months/years of Tyranids being more face-forward in the grand narrative of the galaxy.
Oh? Are we expecting a Necron style cartoonification, then?
H.B.M.C. wrote: As much as we joke (?) about everyone except Marines being NPC factions, the Tyranids truly are an NPC faction. They have no characters or personalities (and hopefully never will), and we never see anything from their point of view. The Hive Mind is supremely intelligent, malevolent even, but it is also animalistic and instinctual. It has a very firm goal and sets its entire being towards the completion of that goal. It doesn't compete against itself. There are no petty rivalries, jealousy, heroism, or politics. No Tyranid organisms ever struggle with self-doubt or fear, nor arrogance or bravado. The Tyranids have nothing to prove and have no concerns with revenge or wounded pride anything like that.
This rubicon has already been crossed (stupidly). The Hive Mind has feelings now.
It was just one BL novel from mediocre writer (who BTW thinks that Custodes are morrons and can be slaughtered by everyone and their dog).
One thing to consider is that the Hive Mind having emotions and such could be taken as fact or it could be adapted very easily to simply how the human mind attempted to make sense of the hive mind in a way that it could comprehend. Ergo that the Hive Mind wasn't exactly a personality, but that those who interacted with it interpreted it as such at that moment in time.
We already have this with Warp Demons all the time.
Overread wrote: One thing to consider is that the Hive Mind having emotions and such could be taken as fact or it could be adapted very easily to simply how the human mind attempted to make sense of the hive mind in a way that it could comprehend. Ergo that the Hive Mind wasn't exactly a personality, but that those who interacted with it interpreted it as such at that moment in time.
We already have this with Warp Demons all the time.
The "Hive Mind has emotions" is/was part of a recent push to establish the Hive Mind as a God, with Devastation of Baal making the comparison that if human emotions are drops of water, the Hive Mind's emotions are oceans.
Similarly, Wraithflight also describes the Hive Mind as a massive multi-dimensional being "brighter than any sun" that could pretty much beat up Slaanesh (or at least the Eldar protagonist believes so).
In a way I think its a move to try and reinforce the idea that the Hive Mind works in the established Chaos Realm mechanics. Which is also something we've seen steadily pushed and at the very least helps reinforce how the Shadow in the Warp works and why Tyranids are dangerous to both living and warp beings.
In many ways we can also have Tyranids change a lot without any ret-con to their lore; just changes in behaviour and interpretation of that behaviour.
IS that "Brighter than any Sun" a sign of emotion or what that Eldar saw as emotion at that time, but is sort of emotion but isn't because its alien.
Heck we don't even really know the purpose of the planetsized structure they built (I really kinda hope we get some development on that soon)
The opening animation to this edition is literally all about the Imperium repeatedly losing world after world to the Tyranids. Then they evacuate defenders from a bunch more worlds in order to barely stop one tendril and that's 'winning every battle'?
- The Imperials won engagement after engagement against the Tyranids in both space and planetside. However, each battle depleted the Imperial forces
And in general where Tyranid accomplishments are downplayed, especially where the Imperium is concerned. Sure, it can be said that Tyranids are bad, they consume world after world, but their most destructive accomplishments are either ret-conned to be less impactful as the editions go on or relegated to bare footnotes. There's not even references on the strain of so many refugees or the loss of industrial or agricultural capacity, or even how much of a strain on available shipping there is to move around such vast populations.
What specific impact do you expect Tyranids to have on the larger narrative, keeping in mind that:
a) they're never going to kill off any mortal named characters unless GW decide to discontinue the model (rip yarrick), and
b) they're not going to wipe out the Blood Angels, Ultramaines, or any other established group people actively buy models for
Something, anything, that can keep being brought up as either something important to the narrative or at least narratively interesting. Tyranids feel disconnected from the rest of the 40k narrative. If GW decided to retcon the entire race out of existence, it feels like the only important piece that would need to be smoothed over is Iyanden, since them getting ravaged by Kraken is a core piece of their lore that differentiates them from other Craftworlds.
A good example would be when Leviathan ate Gryphonne IV. One of the largest forge worlds in the Galaxy, its own Titan Legion, tons of resources to draw upon for its defense, and it was overwhelmed...and is basically a foot note. No books, mentioned in a paragraph in one, maybe two, codices, no impact in the larger narrative when it should have been.
What I would like would be for the Hive Fleets to show some cunning and strategic thinking beyond show up, throw bodies at the problem. Have them lay traps, trick enemies into over-extending, have defenders burn resources defending worlds the Tyranids know they can conquer but are purposely delaying any crushing victories to bleed them dry.
So here's a situation that would still fit in with Tsagualsa's post that would be more interesting:
A single tendril of Leviathan is detected, and the Lords of Terra don't react until worlds start falling hard, so they're bullied into a half hearted attempt to stop the tendril while they muster their forces--the Solblade Fleets, commanded by a fairly incompetent tosser who'd been relegated to command in this portion of the galaxy because his lack of tactical ability would hurt the actual battle fleets but him being too well connected means he can't just be completely gotten rid of. Lo' and behold, the Solblades work better than expected--destroying or driving off several invasions, to the point where the Lords of Terra are reconsidering the amount of forces needing to be deployed and delay sending reinforcements. The Solblades become victims of their own success, starting to be bled by the constant conflict, but they see a chance to shatter the tendril. Abandoning the conflict on several worlds, including the forces on their surface (bonus points if it includes the Lamentors), the majority of the Solblades race to a system to meet the remaining bulk of the tendril...only to be ambushed by the *two* other tendrils. The Solblades are shattered, the Imperium is off balance and out of position, the Hive Fleets are shown that they'll sacrifice hundreds of ships and billions of bioforms and even potentially conquerable planets to meet their objectives, there's infighting over the abandonment of forces (especially the Space Marines), and the threat is significantly stronger than was anticipated.
Would this scenario change the set up from the lore post? Not really, we still get the same set up, but we have all the classics checked: an implacable foe, the Imperium being stretched thin but at the same time being its worst enemy, butting heads, an enemy that has been shown to be both cunning and understand its foe to some extent.
Even the best case scenario is that we destroy some major location like Cadia. But then GW still wants to sell Cadian models, so Cadian guardsmen are just recruited elsewhere and the narrative continues.
I'd take a Cadia-moment at this point. At least it's something that keeps coming up. And lore wise, it does make sense, since Cadian pattern equipment and regiments are all over the place, even before Cadia was blown to smithereens. It was also a defining, Galaxy-wide event, which also culminated in the creation of Cicatrix Maledictum which had the bonus of ending the Tyranid siege on Baal--Tyranids just can't ever get anything nice.
When someone around the table or within the setting says to remember Cadia, Cadia stands, etc., you know exactly what they mean. If someone says the same about Baal or Maccragge or...gosh, I can't even remember where the Imperium destroyed the second Kraken tendril, it doesn't have the same effect (assuming you don't get a blank stare back).
The same situation just happened to the Imperium though. Their 'super-unit' Primarch returned, "killed" his brother to no effect because Angron always comes back, then still failed to prevent Chaos from achieving their main objective.
It's the nature of a setting like this where everyone has to lose battles. At a certain point Tyranids kinda... have to be stopped, or there's no more setting. The same applies to every other faction.
I agree that the whole AoO was poorly presented and narratively neutral, even if it was just an excuse to reintroduce some new primarchs and new models, but at the very least, all the participants (apart from Vashtorr) have already established lore they can fall back on.
And say what you will, at least both Primarchs had their day in the sun. Angron got to wipe out an entire fleet. Lion got to beat the stuffing out of Angron. Each side got their cool moments--the Imperium got to beat on Angron and Vashtorr, and Chaos got to "win" sorta.
Tyranids rarely get that, and even then, it generally gets ret-conned to being pointless, but unlike AoO, that tends to be the entirely of their impact in the setting. They show up, there's a lot of them, and just when it looks like the defenders might be overwhelmed, someone pulls out something ridiculous out of their ass to end the conflict.
I mean, Tyranids won Octarius. That was a big conflict that stretched for 4 editions and that included Orks, the IoM, Eldar to a lesser extent and even Chaos, and Tyranids canonically won that.
Check the CP battle report here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKqmf36YDds Some nice info about our stats, weapons etc. Psychophage especially is interesting with its 10 Wounds, torrent ranged attack, and feeding frenzy cc.
After many weapons profiles rolled into only few options, which happened for Deathwatch for example, what do you think could be done to ours choices? Termagants sheet shows all 3 ranged weapons available for the old plastics still there. So theoretically where are 2-3 choices they could be safe but more could mean some kind of reductions in weapon profiles. For example, I could see all Raveners thorax weapons to receive similar treatment like combi weapons.
Shadow Walker wrote: After many weapons profiles rolled into only few options, which happened for Deathwatch for example, what do you think could be done to ours choices?
Say goodbye to Carnifexes with loads of options...
Shadow Walker wrote: After many weapons profiles rolled into only few options, which happened for Deathwatch for example, what do you think could be done to ours choices?
Say goodbye to Carnifexes with loads of options...
I could see something like Carnifex Claws and Carnifex Cannons being the only options.
While not impossible, I'm mostly doubtful. Most of the Carnifex options have well defined roles: heavy venom cannon for ranged AT, devourers for anti light infantry, stranglethorn for mid infantry, scything talons as anti-heavy infantry and crushing claws as melee AT.
The only real head-scratcher are the head options that aren't extended senses and the deathspitters that I don't believe have ever been a well defined option.
Tyran wrote: and the deathspitters that I don't believe have ever been a well defined option.
Once upon the time it was a single shot blast template weapon so different than Devourer which was many shots and without a template. Now when Blast is a rule we could have those differences back.
Tyran wrote: and the deathspitters that I don't believe have ever been a well defined option.
Once upon the time it was a single shot blast template weapon so different than Devourer which was many shots and without a template. Now when Blast is a rule we could have those differences back.
And even in that once upon a time, it was blatantly outclassed by the stranglethorn because twin-linked S7 small blast couldn't compete with a large S8 blast.
And to be blunt, small blast were crap weapons unless you had a lot of them and with barrage.
Tyran wrote: and the deathspitters that I don't believe have ever been a well defined option.
Once upon the time it was a single shot blast template weapon so different than Devourer which was many shots and without a template. Now when Blast is a rule we could have those differences back.
And even in that once upon a time, it was blatantly outclassed by the stranglethorn because twin-linked S7 small blast couldn't compete with a large S8 blast.
And to be blunt, small blast were crap weapons unless you had a lot of them and with barrage.
Implementation of rules is a different matter. GW could do them right this time. At least with Warriors, it could make some nice choices = you choose Deathspitter to have fewer, stronger shots with a Blast rule or Devourer with many but weaker shots.
Tyran wrote: But we aren't talking warriors but carnifexes.
Moreover blast isn't going to come back for many reasons so I don't see the point in debating them within this thread and within the context of 10th.
As for carnifex deathspitters, sure maybe GW will do them right this time.
Yeah, we were talking Carnifexes but I gave a general proposal for Deathspitters based on Warrior options. Maybe a litlle of-topic though As to Blast it is a weapon rule in 10th. To quote the leaked core rules:
"BLAST
High-explosives can fell several warriors in a single
blast, but firing them where your comrades will get
caught in the ensuing detonation is simply unwise.
Weapons with [BLAST] in their profile are known as
Blast weapons, and they make a random number of
attacks. Each time you determine how many attacks
are made with a Blast weapon, add 1 to the result for
every five models that were in the target unit when
you selected it as the target (rounding down). Blast
weapons can never be used to make attacks against a
unit that is within Engagement Range of one or more
units from the attacking model's army (including its
own unit).
Example: If a weapon with the [BLAST) ability and
an Attacks characteristic of 2D6 targets a unit that
contains 11 models, and the roll to determine how
many attacks are made is a 9, ·a total of 11 attacks
would be made against that unit.''
Unless GW remakes the core Carnifex kit with less weapons, I can't see it losing weapons. I could see its weapon profiles being less diverse within themselves. So less of a spread of variation between them.
Partly because if you want a big artillery unit you take an exoctine etc.... Ergo the big specialists the Tyranid army now has.
Which might be a good thing in some ways; giving the Carnifex perhaps a less diverse role, but a more defined niche within the Tyrnaid army.
Overread wrote: Unless GW remakes the core Carnifex kit with less weapons, I can't see it losing weapons. I could see its weapon profiles being less diverse within themselves. So less of a spread of variation between them.
Remember when GW produced a Hive Tyrant kit that was compatible with other kits in the Tyranid range? And for like, 4 editions this was shown off happily - carnifex weapons, using Tervigon/T-fex weapons, using Broodlord arms etc. etc.... and then 9th hit and the Hive Tyrant was stripped to the absolute barebones of its kit...
Yet unlike the Autarch which got a revised datasheet cause 'it was promoted as cross-compatible!' the Hive Tyrant never did. Despite having been promoted as cross-compatible for multiple editions....
I don't have a Heirophant but the TFex gun may well be bigger, that's a chonky gun.
But the stats for the Heirophant cannons are incredibly stupid regardless. In fact, most of these titan weapons (Warlord excepted, naturally) seem pretty meh. It's not surprising that the Titans are likely to suck in game, but it's annoying that they seem to have not even gotten the relative strength right.
Some cool rules here. I'm a little perplexed at why a big beastie like this would only hit at S6 though.
Probably to differentiate it from Haruspex. One is for softer, smaller targets, especially psykers, and other is for bigger, tougher ones like tanks, bunkers etc.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Well they picked a perfect work to describe them!
[EDIT]: Hey wait a sec...
So... how come the weapons on the Heirophant Bio-Titan have a lower a strength?
Because it has D6+6 attacks? Because the model has 2 of them?
Think about it. 2d6+12 attacks at BS 3+ S10, AP -3, D3 is going to put some hurt on things. Let's think about Knights as a target. Hitting on 3s, Wounding on 5s, Saving on 5s (AP -3 puts Sv3+ into the Invulnerable Save territory) yields an average of 9.33 Wounds.
Sure, you're not dunking a Knight every turn, but that is respectable before we get to close combat.
alextroy wrote: Because it has D6+6 attacks? Because the model has 2 of them?
Think about it. 2d6+12 attacks at BS 3+ S10, AP -3, D3 is going to put some hurt on things. Let's think about Knights as a target. Hitting on 3s, Wounding on 5s, Saving on 5s (AP -3 puts Sv3+ into the Invulnerable Save territory) yields an average of 9.33 Wounds.
Sure, you're not dunking a Knight every turn, but that is respectable before we get to close combat.
It's going to blend anything with a TEQ profile. Once you factor in double Blast plus sustained hits from the standard Tyranid detachment trait a Hierophant will average between 20-30 attacks.
Even into vehicles, if instead you pick the lethal hits detachment bonus the sheer volume of shots will get quite a few wounds through.
Edit: I assume it's more specialised for anti-elite because we'll have a new giant bug in the future that is more focused on killing Titanic stuff.
Overview of the Leviathan unit datacards. There seems to be some kind of embargo on showing these in Leviathan reviews, which could mean WarCom plan to post them soon as rumoured.
So having seen the sprues on fauxhammer, gants only come with fleshborers, so do we think that the 3 weapon options aren't tied to the visual weapon or is a 2nd kit likely to follow like the assault intercessors?
xttz wrote: Overview of the Leviathan unit datacards. There seems to be some kind of embargo on showing these in Leviathan reviews, which could mean WarCom plan to post them soon as rumoured.
A couple of Tyranid strats from battle reports posted today:
Adrenal Surge 1CP
Used in fight phase, critical hits trigger on unmodified 5+ instead of 6+
Rapid Regeneration 1CP
6+++ FNP for any friendly unit, or 5+++ if it's in synapse range
Probably embargoed until they go live for download, which according to Valrak's list is:
- The entire month of June will be hyping up free products that you can download
- 2nd of June: core rules and quickstart guide
- 5th of June: Leviathan datasheets - 8th of June: Tyranid datasheets
- 9th of June: SM datasheets
- 12th of June: non-codex SM datasheets
- 13th of June: Chaos SM datasheets
- 14th of June: Imperium datasheets
- 15th of June: Xenos datasheets
- 16th of June: GT packs and points list
- 20th of June: Datasheets for Combat Patrol
- 23rd of June: Boarding Patrol and Crusade material
Embargo means the same in Spanish than it does in English.
gimme a sec and i'll try to translate the special rules at least.
NeuroTyrant:
Whiplash node? Psy ability - when leading a unit add 1 to their hit rolls, if their target it's battle shocked add +1 to wound also.
Synaptic regulators: in your command phase choose up to 2 units at 12" until your next turn they either remain in sinaptic range or give sinaptic range (cropped too much so can't read it properly.)
Psychic Terror: Psy ability - something about reducing in -1 the enemy battleshock test as long a neurotyrant remains in the table.
Prime:
XTTZ pretty much nialed it's description also gives sustained hits to any weapon of a unit it leads.
Psychopage:
Bioestimulis: Aoe Feel no pain
Feeding Frenzy: +1 to vs units under starting strength +1 to wound if under half starting strength.
Barbgaunt:
Just Blast and Heavy on their weapons nothing they didn't revealed yet.
Dudeface wrote: So having seen the sprues on fauxhammer, gants only come with fleshborers, so do we think that the 3 weapon options aren't tied to the visual weapon or is a 2nd kit likely to follow like the assault intercessors?
Im expecting a multipart non snap fit kit for termas to come with more options. But for me the barbs and neurogaunts are the only must haves of the nids and those probably will remain unchangeable.
This is a bit of old news at this point, since the pics have been out for like a month, but there's something I deeply dislike about the Psychophage's design: it has pointy talons on the ends of its ambulatory limbs.
Which is obviously terrible design for anything that wants to traverse natural surfaces without sinking itself into them.
The community has been using that sort of design out of necessity for, like, decades, but I forgave it because it usually entailed conversions being banged out with the limited limb options from monster + midsize kits.
I believe the Tfex/Terv was the first (and only?) official kit to include something like that (instead of hooves or feet), and I was a bit disappointed at the time, although they did split the difference and give it one set of hooves. The Psychophage doubles down on the stupidity. Do not send that fellow to fight in a rainstorm...
Altruizine wrote: I believe the Tfex/Terv was the first (and only?) official kit to include something like that (instead of hooves or feet), and I was a bit disappointed at the time, although they did split the difference and give it one set of hooves. The Psychophage doubles down on the stupidity. Do not send that fellow to fight in a rainstorm...
Altruizine wrote: This is a bit of old news at this point, since the pics have been out for like a month, but there's something I deeply dislike about the Psychophage's design: it has pointy talons on the ends of its ambulatory limbs.
Which is obviously terrible design for anything that wants to traverse natural surfaces without sinking itself into them.
The community has been using that sort of design out of necessity for, like, decades, but I forgave it because it usually entailed conversions being banged out with the limited limb options from monster + midsize kits.
I believe the Tfex/Terv was the first (and only?) official kit to include something like that (instead of hooves or feet), and I was a bit disappointed at the time, although they did split the difference and give it one set of hooves. The Psychophage doubles down on the stupidity. Do not send that fellow to fight in a rainstorm...
Yeah I have always hated that as from a biomechanical point of view it is terrible for anything larger than small insects. I know that insectile limb feel was what GW was going for but it just doesn't work on big creatures.
Also what I don't like about the Psychophage or Neurotyrant is they have upper jaws with teeth...but no lower jaws. All the tentacles and toothed flaps of the Psychophage do not form a proper bite with the upper jaw. GW seems to have forgotten that you cannot bite something if you have no lower jaw.
Ha, I never really thought about that. I suppose in the case of the Psychophage one could make the case that the tentacles and toothy jowl-flaps are muscular/elastic enough to pulverize something against the upper jaw. But the Neurotyrant looks totally wacky. It appears to have two sets of upper teeth and no lower jaw.
Altruizine wrote: Ha, I never really thought about that. I suppose in the case of the Psychophage one could make the case that the tentacles and toothy jowl-flaps are muscular/elastic enough to pulverize something against the upper jaw. But the Neurotyrant looks totally wacky. It appears to have two sets of upper teeth and no lower jaw.
Exactly why I didn't like the Neurotyrant model when I first saw it. I think GW were trying for just Giger-esque organic disturbing and just included various organic details in an attempt to get that feel, but it just feels stupid if someone stops to think about it a bit more. The true damage from an animal bite is often more from the bite force rather than the teeth being razor/scalpel sharp. Those toothed tentacles would be like a barbed whip. Damaging yes, but not as fearsome as say a crocodile or hippo bite.
3 times Norn Emmisary is mentioned in the book (from Reddit):
''With the skies darkened, day and night had no meaning. The defenders fought on doggedly, yet their casualties mounted and the fortress they manned became ever more heavily damaged. All the while, the three Norn Emissaries stalked through the fighting with eerie alien grace, closing inexorably upon objectives only they knew. One of them struck on the eighth day of the siege, having compressed its mass into the seemingly impossible confines of a decommissioned turbolift shaft then crawled steadily upwards for untold hours. The towering monstrosity burst into the Erythrad Peak command sanctum, where it slaughtered hundreds of screaming strategos and command adepts and destroyed scoroes of irreplacable cogitator banks. The beast would have escaped to strike again elsewhere, had it not been for an unnamed Chapter serf who selflessy sealed the blood-drenched sanctum and trigged the plasmic denial charges, reducing the entire peak to a glassy crater.
The second Emissary - whose distinctive scars identified it to Imperial strategos as the infamous Fiend of Hag Rift - surged from a Trygon tunnel to attack the White Templars' gene-seed vault. It was supported by swarms of lesser warrior organisms and a pair of Neurotyrants. In response, marching from the Chapter's Vaults of Repose came almost a score of White Templars Dreadnoughts who held back the Tyranids in an increasingly desperate and one-sided struggle. Almost all of the ancient warriors were slain - a dreadful loss for the Chapter - but their sacrifices bought time for Colonel Uveda of the Ortegan Grenadiers to launch a massive counter attack and drive the Tyranids back. When the vengeful Chapter Master Stavro arrived at the head of a White Templars strike force, the Fiend of Hag Rift was badly wounded and its swarm devestated. Yet the malevolent monster escaped to fight another day.
For all the butchery and horror wrought by its fellows, it was the third of the Norn Emissaries that struck at the most crucial target. Scaling the snow-whipped peak of the tallest mountains in the Heights of Artorus, the creature lurked in wait amidst rock and ice for its prey to emege. Below lay the wide-open square of the Ascendorum, a great plaza wrought from a mountainous plateau, dotted with braziers, statuary, sheild generatorums and flak batteries. In better times, the White Templars had mustered on this open space to perform rituals and bestow honours beneath the starry vaults of Sanctum's skies. Now, Lord Solar Leontus was crossing the open plaza astride Konstantin with his entourage about him. The Norn Emissary knew its prey's psionic spoor. Its black eyes followed him. Its ropes of muscle and tendon tensed, and then it leapt out into thin air. The Norn Emissary dropped towards the plaza, sword-like talons extended, angling its huge mass to slam down directly atop Leontus. From below came screams as someone spotted the danger and many amongst Leontus' entourage raised weapons. The Lord himself looked up, registering his doom descending upon him too swiftly to be avoided.
Missiles streaked in and struck the Norn Emissary in the flank when it was scant feet above Leontus' head. The impacts blossomed into concussive fireballs. Their force hurled the huge Tyranid aside even as their shock waves unhorsed the Lord Solar and threw him and many of his companions flat upon the flagstones. The Norn Emissary bucked in the air, ichor gouting from its wounded flank, and turned its tumble into a cat-like landing with a grace nothing so huge should posses. It hissed as the gilded gunship that had fired upon it streaked overhead, then banked sharply with a flare of engines and came in for another pass. The craft's rear ramp whined open as it flew closer, and hulking warriors clad in ornate auramite armour dropped from it one after another to slam down in the plaza with enough force to crack stone. The gunship's weapons blazed again. This time the Emissary was ready. Leaping and swinging huge talons in a scything arc, it tore the cockpit from the gunship and sent it spiralling down the mountainside in flames.
The emissary wheeled and surged with serpentine speed towards Leontus, who was still staggering to his feet. Blood ran down his pale face from a bad scalp wound. Though he fumbled to draw his blade, the Norn Emissary's prey was in no condition to defend himself. The monster reared above him.
The newly arrived golden warriors moved with incredible speed and merciless focus. Those of the Lord Solar's retinue not swift enough to clear a path were smashed aside with bone-breaking force as Trajann Valrois and his Custodians raced to interpose themselves between Leontus and his would-be xenos assassin. The Norn Emissary was just paces from its victim when a hammering volley of bolt fire from the Custodian's guardians spears arrested its charge. The monster staggered then lunged with a shriek, snatching up the nearest Custodian and tearing one arm from his body before swinging him by the other and hurling him away.
Trajann Valoris stepped in and aimed a mighty stroke with the Watcher's Axe that shattered several of the Emissary's talons. The towering xeno-beast feinted back then sprang past Valoris and attempted to snatch up Leontus. The Lord Solar had, by now, recovered his wits, however, and hurled himself backward to escape the monster's grasp. Bodyguards and chanting priests pressed forward, raking the Norn Emissary with fire from lasguns, pistols, and a handful of plasma weapons. The monster swatted its attackers aside like insects and sent broken bodies tumbling across the plaza.
The next instant it reeled and screeched as several Custodians' blades hacked into its flesh. Eyes still fixed unerringly on the retreating Lord Solar, the Norn Emissary lashed about itself with blistering speed. A custodian was borne aloft and ripped bodily in two. Another was kicked so hard that his head cleared the plaza and vanished over the precipice before his blood-spurting body had even toppled. Yet another was stomped into the flagstones, even his toughened bone structure and auramite armour not enough to prevent his death. The golden wall between the Norn Emissary and its prey was thinning.
All the while Leontus defenders and the remaining Custodians were pouring fire into the colossal alien abomination. A scything blow of the Watcher's Axe slit the cable-like tendons of the beast's right ankle and set it limping. A plasma blast - either skullfully placed or incredibly lucky - melted the right side of the Emissary's face into a fused mass of cooked flesh. Bolt rounds fired by Custodians blasted chunks of chitin and showers of ichor from the creature's limbs and body.
Still the Norn Emissary fought on. Its whipping tail broke another Custodian's neck and sent his body cluttering away across the plaza. A final, desperate effort saw the beast hurl itself forward, jaws grasping to close upon Lord Solar Leontus like a trap slamming shut. Yet Valoris was there at the crucial moment, Watcher's Axe swinging in a meteoric arc to embed itself in the side of the Norn Emissary's skull and smash its head aside. The xenos monster crashed to the ground, crushing more than a score of Leontus' aides under its bulk, yet its last strike at the Lord Solar had been fended off by the Captain-General of the Emperor's own bodyguards. Valoris and his one surviving Custodian kept their weapons levelled at the monster as it twitched and heaved, but it did not try to rise again. Ichor flooded from its grievious wounds, steaming as it cooled and began to freeze upon the cracked flagstones of the plaza.
Lord Solar Leontus looked gravely around at the carnaged, then up at the stern-faced demigod who had interceded to save his life. Expression sombre, Leontus raised his hands and wordlessly offered the Captain-General of the Adeptus Custodes the sign of the Aquila. Valoris returned the gesture, and then calmly set about checking his wargear and reloading the Eagle's Scream. The life of the Lord Solar had been saved at terrible cost, and the defenders of Sanctum had received reinforcements, but there was still a world's worth of war to be waged.''
Dudeface wrote: So having seen the sprues on fauxhammer, gants only come with fleshborers, so do we think that the 3 weapon options aren't tied to the visual weapon or is a 2nd kit likely to follow like the assault intercessors?
I'd go with a full kit coming with the codex for my guess, but we might also consider the possibility that it's a legacy option to accommodate people with old gaunts. The very recent combat patrol had thirty six of the blighters and it can't be a good look for GW to invalidate options a lot of people only bought in the last year. Although I guess in that case the datasheet might be better served showing "gaunt weapons" instead of fleshborers.
Souleater wrote: So the Norn Emissary is some kind of Tyranid John Wick?
Probably. The Nom Emissary sounds like a fat Lictor. In this day and age where the power levels of hero characters have been cranked up sky high, a poor little Lictor isn't a credible threat anymore, so GW needs a monstrous creature version of that so as not to sound even sillier than their fluff normally does.
There was a Datacard for termagants a while back showing that they still had the three different weapons.
Probably an accurate take on the Lictor, sadly. They could just give us a cool plastic kit with adjusted stats to let it return to it’s days of being an unholy terror in the enemy back field…but no, they’ll make a new unit and continue the model bloat.
That or perhaps they've simply split the concept of a lictor. So instead of getting a Lictor we get the new trio of mini-lictors designed to operate in small groups and then a larger character lictor that's your solo character hunter.
It might even be a duel kit situation, a lictor and the Norn Emissary is the new "deathleaper" variant in terms of being just a bit more special.
Overread wrote: That or perhaps they've simply split the concept of a lictor. So instead of getting a Lictor we get the new trio of mini-lictors designed to operate in small groups and then a larger character lictor that's your solo character hunter.
It might even be a duel kit situation, a lictor and the Norn Emissary is the new "deathleaper" variant in terms of being just a bit more special.
The Norn Emissary sounds like a straight-up replacement of the Dimachaeron both in general concept (ambush predator/infiltrator aiming at high-level individuals) and in size and form- Pretty much an uber-Lictor that dumped the scouting and reconaissance aspects to go after the enemy command structure.
The Dimachaeron appears to have evolved for a single purpose: to slaughter those identified among their prey as leaders in the midst of battle, spreading terror and dismay among the ranks of all who resist the Hive Mind's advance. Bristling with blade-arms studded with sickle-like claws, it can slice a fully armoured Space Marine in two and is able to leap a Leman Russ Battle Tank without breaking stride. When stalking its prey the Dimachaeron dispenses with the slow, stealthy approach of the Lictor and instead relies on sheer brutality and animalistic rage, leaving a gore-soaked trail of carnage behind it.[1]
It's cute how those excerpts are a one-two punch of the best and worst of 40K fluff.
The first one is short, sweet, and evocative. Giant pervert peepers skulking around on obscure sidequests instead of fighting? Hell yeah. One of them going full Bishop up an elevator shaft? Hell yeah. A nameless nobody self-destructing to save the day for the bad good guys? Ok, cool enough.
And then the second one comes in with pure, unfiltered "I'm 12 years old and what is this?"
Jumping off a mountain to assassinate a foe. Custards intervening with milliseconds to spare no less than *three* times in one short vignette. A Custodian getting his head kicked off.
Altruizine wrote: It's cute how those excerpts are a one-two punch of the best and worst of 40K fluff.
The first one is short, sweet, and evocative. Giant pervert peepers skulking around on obscure sidequests instead of fighting? Hell yeah. One of them going full Bishop up an elevator shaft? Hell yeah. A nameless nobody self-destructing to save the day for the bad good guys? Ok, cool enough.
And then the second one comes in with pure, unfiltered "I'm 12 years old and what is this?"
Jumping off a mountain to assassinate a foe. Custards intervening with milliseconds to spare no less than *three* times in one short vignette. A Custodian getting his head kicked off.
The last one is just bad on all counts - it's pretty symptomatic for writing from people that have no experience in writing combat scenes, or even sports or other dynamic things. You get no sense of what is actually happening from it, something jumps around, at one moment it's getting deflected by rockets, the next it's near enough to get hit by an axe, then it falls and crushes twenty people... how big is this thing, what is its mass, speed etc.? Just a total confusion of movements and momentum, leading to an incoherent scene. It begs to be made into a comic that is as close as possible to the description to really drive home the absurdity.
When it’s Drukhari vs the PDF troops there’s lots of back and forth in the combat. Both sides get to do cool stuff and harm the enemy.
The second the Marines arrive the Xenos turn into a bunch of morons.
Automatically Appended Next Post: “ Missiles streaked in and struck the Norn Emissary in the flank when it was scant feet above Leontus' head. The impacts blossomed into concussive fireballs. Their force hurled the huge Tyranid aside even as their shock waves unhorsed the Lord Solar…”
Unhorsed…? An explosion powerful enough to deflect a monster falling at close to terminal velocity should have hospitalised the guy at minimum! ??
4 Custodians dead and another armless, possibly dead. Not bad considering in fluff how rare Custodians are meant to be. Their replacement rate is not exactly stated but I can't imagine it would be that great, otherwise the Emperor would not have needed SM at all if he could have just produced Custodes.
Wonder if the Hive Mind has ever captured and dissected a Custodian yet? Back in 3rd edition, it hinted that the design for Tyrand Guards came about as a result of assimilating Space Marines.
Some more 4th Tyrannic War lore from Arbitor Ian's video, via reddit:
A few fun bits:
New Tyranid bioships called Mindflayers that unleash some sort of psychic attacks.
The Ecclesiarchy denounced the Tyranid invasion as fake news despite Imperial military command emphatically stating otherwise. This inevitably leads to armed conflict between imperial forces as invasion-deniers were attacking anyone with a brain. Many continued to refuse to believe that the Tyranids were invading while Tyranid spores were raining down on the sky above them. Love the satire.
Norn Emissaries aren't "one-of-a-kind" like Swarmlords, and they seem to be some sort of super assassin type of creature. I presume GW's gonna unveil this new Tyranid bioform sometime soon.
At the end of the lore segment, it's stated that the 4th Tyrannic War has only just begun, and the Raven Guard had discovered a Death Star sized Tyranid bioship (the size of a moon) unlike anything they've ever seen before. The lore ends there.
The Norn Emissary sounds like a straight-up replacement of the Dimachaeron
We may even have it old name kept as High Gothic where Norn Emissary is a common Low Gothic nickname.
As long as they get rid of the stupid chest-maw-stinger on the Dimachaeron they could call it Shirley for all i care
Yeah, never was a fan of it, and the model as a whole(also resin). Hopefully, new one will be better than it, and also better than the art shown in Leviathan. I also hope that it is not a single big model we are getting, and there is a proper super heavy/titan scale one for us.
Altruizine wrote: Kind of funny they went with "mindflayer"... isn't that one of WotC's copyrights?
(disclaimer for any pedants tempted to slip into internet IP lawyer cosplay to tell me a word cannot be copyrighted: yes, i am aware)
Mindflayers specifically have a utterly ridiculous and convoluted history of legal fights between more than a handful of parties over the years, if you ever want to spend an afternoon or weekend going down a stupid legal rabbithole...
Shadow Walker wrote: I also hope that it is not a single big model we are getting, and there is a proper super heavy/titan scale one for us.
Since Necrons got both the Silent King and the Monolith (how big is the Void Dragon?) I would be surprised if Tyranids won't also get at least two big releases, especially since we heard multiple times now that the Tyranid refresh would be the biggest they have ever done so bigger than Necrons
Altruizine wrote: Kind of funny they went with "mindflayer"... isn't that one of WotC's copyrights?
(disclaimer for any pedants tempted to slip into internet IP lawyer cosplay to tell me a word cannot be copyrighted: yes, i am aware)
Mindflayers specifically have a utterly ridiculous and convoluted history of legal fights between more than a handful of parties over the years, if you ever want to spend an afternoon or weekend going down a stupid legal rabbithole...
Yeah, I'd heard something about that (maybe even here, from you, if it's something you remember posting about in one of the many threads about GW and IP).
I get a kick out of the company who tried to rip the words Space Marine out of the hands of a children's author just going "F--- it, we have mindflayers now"
The Norn Emissary sounds like a straight-up replacement of the Dimachaeron
We may even have it old name kept as High Gothic where Norn Emissary is a common Low Gothic nickname.
As long as they get rid of the stupid chest-maw-stinger on the Dimachaeron they could call it Shirley for all i care
Yeah, never was a fan of it, and the model as a whole(also resin). Hopefully, new one will be better than it, and also better than the art shown in Leviathan. I also hope that it is not a single big model we are getting, and there is a proper super heavy/titan scale one for us.
I don't mind the idea of a chest maw/stinger. My issue with it was that, and this was going by photos, it was so oddly proportioned and posed. It was a huge hulking upper body with a huge chest weapon on long skinny legs. It just didn't look proportioned right.
Conceptually I think GW is struggling with new ideas/niches for Tyranid creatures that don't already overlap with existing ones to some degree, especially the close combat creatures.
The latest Tyranids seem to be mostly this "more of the same". Leapers are like a variant Lictor. Neurotyrant seems a different Zoanthrope, in the role of C&C rather than psychic artillery. A CC Carnifex vs. the Haruspex... I don't know, but they just don't fire the imagination the same way the old ones did.
Iracundus wrote: Conceptually I think GW is struggling with new ideas/niches for Tyranid creatures that don't already overlap with existing ones to some degree, especially the close combat creatures.
The latest Tyranids seem to be mostly this "more of the same". Leapers are like a variant Lictor. Neurotyrant seems a different Zoanthrope, in the role of C&C rather than psychic artillery. A CC Carnifex vs. the Haruspex... I don't know, but they just don't fire the imagination the same way the old ones did.
What do you mean by CC Carnifex? If a Screamer Killer then it was there since the very beginning.
To be fair it can be hard to think of new niches in a game that already has an army which covers pretty much all the questions an opposing army can as of it.
I think some of the ideas are also niche concepts - eg the neutrogaunts and barbedgaunts are clearly not really aiming to replace other synapse options nor hiveguard or such. What they are doing is providing alternatives that might be as good/not as good; but which would easily fit into a "swarm army" theme.
That's what I feel we've got with some of the new stuff. It's not so much about providing new tools for the army, but new niches to build army types.
With them you can build an army that has way more gaunt class models and covers more options and features, without having to splice in more warriors or hive guard for those roles.
Iracundus wrote: Conceptually I think GW is struggling with new ideas/niches for Tyranid creatures that don't already overlap with existing ones to some degree, especially the close combat creatures.
The latest Tyranids seem to be mostly this "more of the same". Leapers are like a variant Lictor. Neurotyrant seems a different Zoanthrope, in the role of C&C rather than psychic artillery. A CC Carnifex vs. the Haruspex... I don't know, but they just don't fire the imagination the same way the old ones did.
What do you mean by CC Carnifex? If a Screamer Killer then it was there since the very beginning.
I meant the introduction of the Haruspex 40K model seemed a little redundant back you could construct a Carnifex geared for CC, and now they have split the Screamer Killer off from the Carnifex. The old Epic Haruspex was a tank sized assault creature that squired short range acid.
The ultimate result though is similar. You get a big monster that runs around, one with bio-plasma and another with its tongue and maw attacks. I would say that despite these differences they occupy a similar design space.
Iracundus wrote: and now they have split the Screamer Killer off from the Carnifex.
It was probably one of the stupidest things they have done. SC is just a Carnifex variant, same as Thornback. Making them separate from the Carnifex entry is idiotic, and only increases datasheets bloat.
Hormagaunts, Gargoyles and Termagants (and now Neurogants, Leapers and Barbgants) are canonically just variants of the same gaunt template and yet have been different datasheets since forever.
Lore wise you can justify a lot of model and datasheet bloat with nids as just being variants of existing critters.
Would have been better to use the 3rd edition "Build a Tyranid" rules. Yes, I know there were abuses possible, but that just means reworking the system not throwing it out.
Iracundus wrote: and now they have split the Screamer Killer off from the Carnifex.
It was probably one of the stupidest things they have done. SC is just a Carnifex variant, same as Thornback. Making them separate from the Carnifex entry is idiotic, and only increases datasheets bloat.
And yet if the Carnifex was just a single entry, there would be the same claim about "how can you not have that many of them? there's so many types!!!!". They're splitting things off. We've seen that in the Leman Russ now.
There's an upside to it. It lets there be special rules actually impacting that specific genotype of Carnifex.
Iracundus wrote: and now they have split the Screamer Killer off from the Carnifex.
It was probably one of the stupidest things they have done. SC is just a Carnifex variant, same as Thornback. Making them separate from the Carnifex entry is idiotic, and only increases datasheets bloat.
And yet if the Carnifex was just a single entry, there would be the same claim about "how can you not have that many of them? there's so many types!!!!". They're splitting things off. We've seen that in the Leman Russ now.
There's an upside to it. It lets there be special rules actually impacting that specific genotype of Carnifex.
The Carnifex was a single entry. I remember an interview with Jes Goodwin saying the whole point was being able to build the Carnifex however you wanted with all those biomorph options and weapon choices. Then Forgeworld got in with things like new claw arms etc... The Carnifex was basically the Leman Russ hull, and the armament choices made the variants.
The carnifex was always a jack of all trades, but that did also hamper it a little. It's stats were never perfect for any one role it was given; and various editions tried to cover that by basically giving the option to buy more biomorphs to improve its stats in select ways.
In the end many people did use them in very separate roles - even if you magnetized them you'd be putting the extra eyes head on any fex using lots of guns etc...
All GW has done with the screamer is take one build variation out of the mix and give it its own entry. The bonus there is that they can also give it unique stats that fit the role perfectly without needing to buy on additions and such.
I could see GW doing that for hte fex overall. Taking 1 modular kit and breaking it into several named kits.You could still use the classic model or you could get the new, more dynamic kits; meanwhile the rules would go from giving you 1 core jack fex to a handful of variations suited to their specific roles.
Inaugural global campaign. Which side (Maureens or Tyranids) will get their next wave of releases shown off first.
With the powers of cynicism and jadedness, i peer through the veil of time and predict that the Tyranids will win a hard-fought victory, driving home the 'fact' that stakes have never been so high for the Imperium™ and winning the reveal for the faction whose Codex is listed next on the roadmap, instead for the one that is listed after it
Shadow Walker wrote: So if we win they will show our models in Autumn on Monday not on Tuesday? So hyped
Considering the lead times involved, the results of this battle are going to show up in printed books at about the beginning of the lead-up phase for 11th edition.
Shadow Walker wrote: So if we win they will show our models in Autumn on Monday not on Tuesday? So hyped
Considering the lead times involved, the results of this battle are going to show up in printed books at about the beginning of the lead-up phase for 11th edition.
It'll be forgotten by then. All this does is 'decide' if they show off the Marine products for autumn before or after the Tyranid products for autumn.
Shadow Walker wrote: So if we win they will show our models in Autumn on Monday not on Tuesday? So hyped
Considering the lead times involved, the results of this battle are going to show up in printed books at about the beginning of the lead-up phase for 11th edition.
It'll be forgotten by then. All this does is 'decide' if they show off the Marine products for autumn before or after the Tyranid products for autumn.
Let's not kid ourselves, this is completely opaque and there's a good chance that the result is predetermined (like e.q. WotC's 'battle' between Mirrodin Redeemed and New Phyrexia).
Inaugural global campaign. Which side (Maureens or Tyranids) will get their next wave of releases shown off first.
Tyranids - you get to eat a whole world! No Chaos tricks, no hidden marine reserves, no plot armour, no shining hero that will stand firm and save them. The whole world for the eating!!
Catch - there's WAY more marine players than Tyranid. It's going to be one hard slog to eat them all!
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Seems participation codes are tied to Leviathan Boxed sets…and it’s One Game Reported.
So whilst I suspect Nids will be outnumbered, it may not be as bad as feared?
You can also participate by writing a short essay about how Space Marines/Tyranids are awesome and emailing it to GW.
For those interested, this is not a joke!
4.1.2 Entry is free by emailing competitions@gwplc.com during the Entry Period and telling us in a minimum of 150 words why you like either Space Marines or Tyranids. The email must be titled “Leviathan Prize Draw”. No purchase is necessary for this AMOE.
The reason for this is that several jurisdictions disallow prize draws where participation depends on making a purchase, and/or stipulate that there needs to be an alternative way to participate without purchase. Usually, and also in this case, GW provides these alternative ways, but (understandably) is not exactly promoting them
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Seems participation codes are tied to Leviathan Boxed sets…and it’s One Game Reported.
So whilst I suspect Nids will be outnumbered, it may not be as bad as feared?
You can also participate by writing a short essay about how Space Marines/Tyranids are awesome and emailing it to GW.
This sounds like a perfect reason to use AI to write an essay.
The Tyranids, within the vast universe of Warhammer 40K, are undeniably awesome for several reasons. Firstly, their concept is utterly terrifying. They represent a ravenous and all-consuming alien swarm that travels through space, devouring entire worlds in their path. This relentless hunger and the sheer scale of their existence make them a formidable force.
Secondly, the Tyranids possess an incredibly diverse range of bio-engineered creatures. From towering Hive Tyrants to the numerous ranks of Gaunts, each unit showcases a unique blend of alien biology and deadly adaptations. The intricate designs and attention to detail in their models make them visually captivating.
Furthermore, the Tyranids offer a distinct playstyle on the tabletop. Their focus on close combat and overwhelming numbers provides an exhilarating and dynamic gaming experience. The ability to adapt and evolve during battles, as depicted in the lore, adds an extra layer of depth and unpredictability to their gameplay.
Ultimately, the Tyranids captivate Warhammer 40K enthusiasts with their horrifying concept, stunning miniature designs, and engaging playstyle. They stand as an awe-inspiring faction that embodies the sheer terror and alien menace within the grim darkness of the 41st millennium.
I notice that Tyranid Warriors With Melee Bio-Weapons and Tyranid Warriors with Ranged Bio-Weapons are now two separate units, according to the Winged Prime's valid attached units.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Seems participation codes are tied to Leviathan Boxed sets…and it’s One Game Reported.
So whilst I suspect Nids will be outnumbered, it may not be as bad as feared?
You can also participate by writing a short essay about how Space Marines/Tyranids are awesome and emailing it to GW.
This sounds like a perfect reason to use AI to write an essay.
The Tyranids, within the vast universe of Warhammer 40K, are undeniably awesome for several reasons. Firstly, their concept is utterly terrifying. They represent a ravenous and all-consuming alien swarm that travels through space, devouring entire worlds in their path. This relentless hunger and the sheer scale of their existence make them a formidable force.
Secondly, the Tyranids possess an incredibly diverse range of bio-engineered creatures. From towering Hive Tyrants to the numerous ranks of Gaunts, each unit showcases a unique blend of alien biology and deadly adaptations. The intricate designs and attention to detail in their models make them visually captivating.
Furthermore, the Tyranids offer a distinct playstyle on the tabletop. Their focus on close combat and overwhelming numbers provides an exhilarating and dynamic gaming experience. The ability to adapt and evolve during battles, as depicted in the lore, adds an extra layer of depth and unpredictability to their gameplay.
Ultimately, the Tyranids captivate Warhammer 40K enthusiasts with their horrifying concept, stunning miniature designs, and engaging playstyle. They stand as an awe-inspiring faction that embodies the sheer terror and alien menace within the grim darkness of the 41st millennium.
Oh yea I'm winning that prize!
An abominable intelligence wrote that? Maybe it should rip off a raging fanboy instead of GW's soulless marketing texts. Might actually be interesting and fun to read.
Disclaimer: I don't mean to hurt the feelings of people dead or alive, nor adorable pets, or for that matter any machine intelligences that control the world's nuclear arsenals. If an AI with wounded pride blows up the world, don't blame me.
Oh boy, let me tell you why Space Marines are so much cooler than Tyranids! First of all, Space Marines are super tough and heroic. They are genetically enhanced super-soldiers, with amazing strength and power. They wear these awesome suits of armor that make them look like walking tanks! They have these massive guns and cool futuristic weapons that can blast away any enemy.
But wait, there's more! Space Marines are not just strong, they are also really smart. They have these strategic minds and can come up with awesome battle plans to defeat the enemies. They fight for the Emperor and defend humanity from all the evil threats in the galaxy. They are the ultimate defenders of justice!
Now, let's talk about Tyranids. Sure, they might be big and scary, but they are just mindless bugs. They don't have any cool armor or weapons like the Space Marines. They are just a swarm of creatures looking to devour everything in their path. Boring!
So there you have it, Space Marines are way cooler than Tyranids. They are the epitome of bravery, strength, and awesomeness in the Warhammer 40,000 universe!
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Seems participation codes are tied to Leviathan Boxed sets…and it’s One Game Reported.
So whilst I suspect Nids will be outnumbered, it may not be as bad as feared?
You can also participate by writing a short essay about how Space Marines/Tyranids are awesome and emailing it to GW.
For those interested, this is not a joke!
4.1.2 Entry is free by emailing competitions@gwplc.com during the Entry Period and telling us in a minimum of 150 words why you like either Space Marines or Tyranids. The email must be titled “Leviathan Prize Draw”. No purchase is necessary for this AMOE.
The reason for this is that several jurisdictions disallow prize draws where participation depends on making a purchase, and/or stipulate that there needs to be an alternative way to participate without purchase. Usually, and also in this case, GW provides these alternative ways, but (understandably) is not exactly promoting them
Maybe I can trim this down to size:
Spoiler:
Tehre is noh time to beh lohst!
Batul Brothas!
Spehss Mahrens, todeh the enemeh is at oua doar! We know oua duteh and we will do eet. We fight for our honor as Blud Rehvens,
as SPESS MAHRENS, and we fight in the nehme of the Empra!
And if we die this deh we die in gloareh, we die heroes' deffs, but we shall not die, no! It is the enemeh who will tehste deff and defeat! As you know’’
Moast of oua battle brothars are shtehtioned in SPEHSS, Pruhpeared to deep strike! Oua perimeter has been
pruhpeared in the even dat oua enehmies should be so bald and so foolish. We have plehced numerous beacons, allowing for
muhltiple, simuln-tehneous and devashtehting defensive deep strikes The Codecks astartees nehmes this maneuvah Steel Rehn. We will descend upon the foe, we will ovawhelm them - we will leave none
alive! Meanwhile oua ground fawses will ensue the full defense of oua headkwaters
We are the spehss mahrens! WE ARE THE EMPRA'S FUREH!
Of course this is the edited version taught to young cultists to disgrace the honourable captain. This is the handy work of chaos. This was the original version found at his desk next to a pile of red and black crayons.
There is at our honor, as Blood Ravens, as space marines, and so foolish.
We are the emperor!
If we fight in glory.
We will descend upon the name of our headquarters.
We will descend upon the emperor's fury There is at our door.
We have placed numerous beacons, allowing for our honor, as Blood Ravens, as Blood Ravens, as Blood Ravens, as space marines, and devastating defensive deep strike!
Our perimeter has been prepared in the event that our enemies should be lost!
Battle brothers; space prepared to deep strike!
Our perimeter has been prepared in the emperor!
If we fight in space, prepared to deep strikes.
The Codex Astartes names this maneuver steel rain.
We fight for multiple simultaneous and we fight for our door.
We are the emperor!
If we will overwhelm them, we shall not die.
No, We fight for our honor, as space marines, and we fight for our battle brothers are stationed in the name of the emperor!
catbarf wrote: I notice that Tyranid Warriors With Melee Bio-Weapons and Tyranid Warriors with Ranged Bio-Weapons are now two separate units, according to the Winged Prime's valid attached units.
And no mention of Shrikes. Unfortunate.
It's to do with how 10th does 2 sets of close combat weapons, since you can only swing with one. That means Warriors will either need to be given <extra attacks> or something else with the double melee weapon loadout.
As for no Shrikes, that unit doesn't exist yet. This would not be updated until the codex release with the new models.
Sasori wrote: As for no Shrikes, that unit doesn't exist yet. This would not be updated until the codex release with the new models.
Exactly. Nothing in these sheets or the coming 'Nid sheets on the 8th will give us anything new.
They'll all be for existing units + the units revealed in Leviathan. We won't see the rules for the new stuff until they start previewing the new Codex.
catbarf wrote: I notice that Tyranid Warriors With Melee Bio-Weapons and Tyranid Warriors with Ranged Bio-Weapons are now two separate units, according to the Winged Prime's valid attached units.
And no mention of Shrikes. Unfortunate.
It's to do with how 10th does 2 sets of close combat weapons, since you can only swing with one. That means Warriors will either need to be given <extra attacks> or something else with the double melee weapon loadout.
As for no Shrikes, that unit doesn't exist yet. This would not be updated until the codex release with the new models.
It might also be ranged get a defensive ability on objectives or something where the melee get a speed boost. Or something like that.
tneva82 wrote: You want guillimann striking with 21 attacks annihilating multiple squads?
Marine captains swinging with relic weapon and thunderhammer would get silly boost.
Whv in 9e you didn't attack # of A with every weapon and had to choose?
They didn't want to double melee power vs 9e
I mean you could just give guilliman a combined weapon profile, or halve the attacks on each weapon, but yeah I do agree it's not something that needs to happen imo.
I wonder how they will separate cc weapons options for the Warriors? My bet would be that Swords and Claws will be cc Warriors only, and Talons for both. I also think that Spinefists and Hooks will be cc only. If I am right, the most popular build - Swords and Deathspitters - will be turned illegal.
tneva82 wrote: You want guillimann striking with 21 attacks annihilating multiple squads?
Yep. That's exactly what I meant. I want Guilliman to have 21 attacks. Hell, I want him to have 50 attacks. With each weapon. Twice per turn. We full re-rolls.
Yes, it was easier when a unit had a finite amount of attacks to divide between weapons, but I don't see what's so wrong with allowing two weapons to be used if it reduces attacks.
Shadow Walker wrote: I wonder how they will separate cc weapons options for the Warriors? My bet would be that Swords and Claws will be cc Warriors only, and Talons for both. I also think that Spinefists and Hooks will be cc only. If I am right, the most popular build - Swords and Deathspitters - will be turned illegal.
Or they'll be "Warrior close combat weapon" and "warrior bio weapon" and neither exist.
In seriousness I expect having a gun renders the melee weapon irrelevant via generic filler weapon with only the gun mattering, I'm also expecting the melee variant is always scything talons + something.
Shadow Walker wrote: I wonder how they will separate cc weapons options for the Warriors? My bet would be that Swords and Claws will be cc Warriors only, and Talons for both. I also think that Spinefists and Hooks will be cc only. If I am right, the most popular build - Swords and Deathspitters - will be turned illegal.
Or they'll be "Warrior close combat weapon" and "warrior bio weapon" and neither exist.
In seriousness I expect having a gun renders the melee weapon irrelevant via generic filler weapon with only the gun mattering, I'm also expecting the melee variant is always scything talons + something.
My bet is:
Scytals & rending claws become "warrior claws and talons" with a single D1 profile
Boneswords are a separate D2 weapon profile. Lashwhips act as a wargear upgrade again, probably triggering desparate escape tests for enemy units in engagement range.
Ranged warriors get deathspitters / devourers / spinefists with different profiles, like termagants. They're also equipped with 'warrior claws and talons' by default but can upgrade to the other melee options.
Melee warriors get 'warrior claws and talons' with more base attacks, and can take boneswords / lash whips as an upgrade.
tneva82 wrote: You want guillimann striking with 21 attacks annihilating multiple squads?
Yep. That's exactly what I meant. I want Guilliman to have 21 attacks. Hell, I want him to have 50 attacks. With each weapon. Twice per turn. We full re-rolls.
Yes, it was easier when a unit had a finite amount of attacks to divide between weapons, but I don't see what's so wrong with allowing two weapons to be used if it reduces attacks.
Oh think it’s more about how melee attacks have always been more about the user than the weapon while shooting attacks are the opposite (in Warhammer at least) and they’re just continuing that conceit.
I certainly prefer “pick one set of attacks with attached profile” to “pick a profile, check how many attacks you have, now check if the profile modifies that somehow, now get your strength and modify that as appropriate to determine the final attack profile” which is what we had before.
Could it be even better? Maybe yes. Is it better than it was? Definitely yes.
Semi-related; is there anything actually stopping you selecting an “[Extra Attacks]” weapon as your primary profile when in close combat?
On the data cards? Remember these are pre-Codex release data cards. Something to get us gaming until each Codex rolls out, at which point the cards will be replaced.
As such, I wouldn’t worry to much about what’s what, as the Codex a promised, I revealed wave of entirely new kits, are yet to come.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: On the data cards? Remember these are pre-Codex release data cards. Something to get us gaming until each Codex rolls out, at which point the cards will be replaced.
As such, I wouldn’t worry to much about what’s what, as the Codex a promised, I revealed wave of entirely new kits, are yet to come.
Yeah I mean fundamentally the bloat will start here and now. Pre-codex data cards then the codex cards then fixed of errors cards to be replaced with yearly updated cards. Thats just the cards.
Valrak just did a video about the Norn Emissary where he describes how it looks and probably just a slip of the tongue on his side but he said its build of the new Hive Tyrant frame.
So maybe we are getting a new Hive Tyrant model?
Otherwise what he describes sounds like the picture with custodes we saw before:
Looks similar to a hive tyrant with genestealer style hands, braingrowth with tentacles on the back
Matrindur wrote: Valrak just did a video about the Norn Emissary where he describes how it looks and probably just a slip of the tongue on his side but he said its build of the new Hive Tyrant frame.
So maybe we are getting a new Hive Tyrant model?
Otherwise what he describes sounds like the picture with custodes we saw before:
Looks similar to a hive tyrant with genestealer style hands, braingrowth with tentacles on the back
Apparently everything now has brain-growths on their back - the Neurogaunts, the Bettygaunts, the Neurotyrant and the Emissary all sport them, seems to be the Autumn '23 fashion must-have for otherworldly horrors.
Matrindur wrote: Valrak just did a video about the Norn Emissary where he describes how it looks and probably just a slip of the tongue on his side but he said its build of the new Hive Tyrant frame.
So maybe we are getting a new Hive Tyrant model?
Otherwise what he describes sounds like the picture with custodes we saw before:
Looks similar to a hive tyrant with genestealer style hands, braingrowth with tentacles on the back
Apparently everything now has brain-growths on their back - the Neurogaunts, the Bettygaunts, the Neurotyrant and the Emissary all sport them, seems to be the Autumn '23 fashion must-have for otherworldly horrors.
Because they want to show off their weakest spot to everyone. Exposed brain on the backs. Its the equivalent of a terminator with no helmet!
NAVARRO wrote: Because they want to show off their weakest spot to everyone. Exposed brain on the backs. Its the equivalent of a terminator with no helmet!
GaroRobe wrote: It’s like when Nintendo remastered Majoras mask and changed every boss so that it would have a giant eyeball as a weak point. Because reasons
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: On the data cards? Remember these are pre-Codex release data cards. Something to get us gaming until each Codex rolls out, at which point the cards will be replaced.
As such, I wouldn’t worry to much about what’s what, as the Codex a promised, I revealed wave of entirely new kits, are yet to come.
Seems dubious. The idea that they revised all the datasheets and then for a book just months later (already finished, by the way), they revised the cards again, but 'for real this time' is more than a little absurd and wasteful. What data would they be using to revise them? What changed in the months before the edition release to change the cards for the first two army books?
Some revisions to cards for armies later in the cycle may well happen, but I think people expecting revisions between thursday/friday's cards and September/October (ish) are straight up tricking themselves.
I've got a recollection of GW using altered stats/rules for some of their duel army packs and such. They've done it in the past so that they can release two armies in the same box and have them "work". GW is really hot right now on easy entry - push fit, simpler rules, smaller game formats getting marketing and so-forth.
That they've also built this boxed set with a marketing campaign in mind; it would not surprise me if they altered stats a bit on models so that everything was super simple. Push your models together, slap them on the table and play - no list building options; no optional upgrades (or very limited); and just throw them out for battle.
Granted the fact that gaunts have 3 weapons listed and the pushfit only come with 1 option; would defeat this line of argument. Unless, of course, GW just make a few errors or weren't too stringent on what got taken out and such.
Don't know, we'll have to wait and see. Thankfully it won't be long before we find out.
Mr_Rose wrote: Semi-related; is there anything actually stopping you selecting an “[Extra Attacks]” weapon as your primary profile when in close combat?
Ummm. I guess you can technically do that. I'm unsure if it'd be worth it though. Likely to be FAQ'd.
I think it's very likely that the Leviathan sheets won't exactly match the sheets we're about to get and the eventual Codex sheets.
I mean, do we really think that they just forgot to give rules to the Nodebeast?
Mr_Rose wrote: Semi-related; is there anything actually stopping you selecting an “[Extra Attacks]” weapon as your primary profile when in close combat?
I don't think so. I know in 9th they got rid of the ability to avoid using your melee weapons so people couldn't do the default CCW attack and kill as few enemies as possible, but I'm not sure if a similar sort of thing exists in 10th.
You know what's more likely? It's just not part of the rules because no one writing the rules thought about it.
I'm guessing the nodebeast is just the sarge, right? It's weird though, because these aren't the CP sheets so if these aren't final sheets what the hell is even the point?
Daedalus81 wrote: I'm guessing the nodebeast is just the sarge, right? It's weird though, because these aren't the CP sheets so if these aren't final sheets what the hell is even the point?
On one hand what would be the incentive to buy the codex if they were identical - on the other side of that coin, why wouldn't they be identical if they're only 2-5 months apart?
Man, I truly want to believe, but then I remember all those day/week one/week before release etc. Codex corrections, and my faith in them is frozing quickly like death body in Asaheim.
Daedalus81 wrote: I'm guessing the nodebeast is just the sarge, right? It's weird though, because these aren't the CP sheets so if these aren't final sheets what the hell is even the point?
On one hand what would be the incentive to buy the codex if they were identical - on the other side of that coin, why wouldn't they be identical if they're only 2-5 months apart?
Codexes are for detachments, really. Don't need updated datasheets for that to matter even if there will be some.
Anyone who buys these upcoming "Index" cards - well, let's be honest, anyone who buys any cards for 40k deserves everything they get - will be mightily disappointed when they're all invalidated upon a new Codex release.
Wonder if the cards will have a"version number" printed somewhere or maybe a different colour to help out differentiate between old and new.
Stu Black mentioned in an interview that the cards that come with codexes are having a slightly different size to help differentiate between index and codex cards. I can't remember if there's anything else he mentioned about the differences.
I'm not convinced a New Tyrant/Norn Emissary kit would work due to sprue logistics.
It would hypothetically need to contain:
- Tyrant parts
- Tyrant wings (wings hog space on any sprue, it only gets worse with an enlarged Tyrant)
- Norn parts
- Swarmlord parts
Which seems like a lot.
I suppose they could skip the wings and keep the current kit available for flyrants, but then they either have a confusing "Two Swarmlords" situation, or they also skip the Swarmlord parts and the Swarmlord ends up smaller than the new Tyrant.
I think it's more likely that the Norn's alternate build is a new creature or makeover of a vintage creature.
Altruizine wrote: I'm not convinced a New Tyrant/Norn Emissary kit would work due to sprue logistics.
It would hypothetically need to contain:
- Tyrant parts
- Tyrant wings (wings hog space on any sprue, it only gets worse with an enlarged Tyrant)
- Norn parts
- Swarmlord parts
Which seems like a lot.
I suppose they could skip the wings and keep the current kit available for flyrants, but then they either have a confusing "Two Swarmlords" situation, or they also skip the Swarmlord parts and the Swarmlord ends up smaller than the new Tyrant.
I think it's more likely that the Norn's alternate build is a new creature or makeover of a vintage creature.
Could be that it's separate kits, but with a lot of reused CAD assets, like e.g. a torso, between them. That would lead to great similarities in general look.
Could also be that there's two kits:
One that builds a "flyrant"/Neurotyrant and one that builds the Norn Emissary/foot Tyrant and the Swarmlord's loadout gets folded into the standard Tyrant.
I just don't buy into a new hive tyrant. It's a perfectly servicable kit, well liked and hasn't really aged much if at all.
Nids don't work on "biggest is best", there's no reason for the leader bug to be knight sized, plus the tyrant guard won't work if they're guarding something from its ankles.
Dudeface wrote: I just don't buy into a new hive tyrant. It's a perfectly servicable kit, well liked and hasn't really aged much if at all.
Nids don't work on "biggest is best", there's no reason for the leader bug to be knight sized, plus the tyrant guard won't work if they're guarding something from its ankles.
To my ongoing dismay there are a lot of folks out there who think the opposite of that, and want Tyranids that have villainous personalities and roided out champions on the order of Primarchs and Daemon Princes, overseen by a cackling interventionist Hive Mind.
Unsurprisingly, they tend to be non-Tyranid players. Often they're not players at all, and often they're new and/or casual fans drawn in by the Primarchocentric era of background we've been in for the last decade. If you hang around somewhere like the 40lore subreddit you'll see several of these people in every thread about Tyranids. Dakka skews grognard, so we don't really see too much of that stance around here, but they're out there. I'm constantly in dread of GW listening to these people and 180ing the Tyranid vibe.
Shadow Walker wrote: Some on 4chan made those while discussing Valrak's words about Norn Emissary's about dual kit with new HT etc.
I would love a new tyrant kit with a modern take on the FW/3rd edition headcrest tyrant like the big bug on the top right. I know the bedford sculpt was garbage but I loved that big triangle head. One of my first warhammer models ever
For me Tyranids don't need big kit reworks, but I do like seeing GW pushing smaller details and such on the plastics. Things like the vents on their backs getting a "top" to them with holes instead of just being an open gap.
Dudeface wrote: I just don't buy into a new hive tyrant. It's a perfectly servicable kit, well liked and hasn't really aged much if at all.
Nids don't work on "biggest is best", there's no reason for the leader bug to be knight sized, plus the tyrant guard won't work if they're guarding something from its ankles.
To my ongoing dismay there are a lot of folks out there who think the opposite of that, and want Tyranids that have villainous personalities and roided out champions on the order of Primarchs and Daemon Princes, overseen by a cackling interventionist Hive Mind.
Unsurprisingly, they tend to be non-Tyranid players. Often they're not players at all, and often they're new and/or casual fans drawn in by the Primarchocentric era of background we've been in for the last decade. If you hang around somewhere like the 40lore subreddit you'll see several of these people in every thread about Tyranids. Dakka skews grognard, so we don't really see too much of that stance around here, but they're out there. I'm constantly in dread of GW listening to these people and 180ing the Tyranid vibe.
This is a prime example why gatekeeping is a good thing.
I could see Neurotyrant as a double kit with new Malanthrope.
Only if they shrink the Malanthrope, that boy is a lot bigger than it seems in pictures without a size reference:
Judging from the army shots, the Neurotyrant is about half as tall.
I would not say a lot bigger. Mal is on 60mm, and Neuro on 50mm. Mal is mostly taller because his long tail. It could work as dual but so far it is only my speculation as we do not even know if Neuro will be more than pushfit in the future.
Hive tyrants don't need to be bigger, but I wouldn't object to a new kit on the grounds that they could add so much more detailing to the model judging by the leviathan sculpts. Ridged chitin and segmented flesh would look amazing and they could add new options in terms head crests, tail options and maybe bioweapons. The sculpting options have moved on so much, but Nids have been very lucky-the model range holds up really well due to Jes designing them.
I'd hope the Norn Emissary is a separate big critter. I like that its not a "named character" but creature type. a LoW would be nice too.
I wonder if they will do a walking prime kit- the warrior kit one is a little underwhelming and one in the style of the flying prime would be ace. They could even do a snake bodied prime type critter -the Red Terror reborn, to go with Raveners. Jes and Phil Kelly talked about having different strands of creatures -winged, walking and snake bodied. Yes also mentioned the idea of tyrant with a swollen belly birthing rippers... which could be cool..
Dudeface wrote: I just don't buy into a new hive tyrant. It's a perfectly servicable kit, well liked and hasn't really aged much if at all.
Nids don't work on "biggest is best", there's no reason for the leader bug to be knight sized, plus the tyrant guard won't work if they're guarding something from its ankles.
To my ongoing dismay there are a lot of folks out there who think the opposite of that, and want Tyranids that have villainous personalities and roided out champions on the order of Primarchs and Daemon Princes, overseen by a cackling interventionist Hive Mind.
Unsurprisingly, they tend to be non-Tyranid players. Often they're not players at all, and often they're new and/or casual fans drawn in by the Primarchocentric era of background we've been in for the last decade. If you hang around somewhere like the 40lore subreddit you'll see several of these people in every thread about Tyranids. Dakka skews grognard, so we don't really see too much of that stance around here, but they're out there. I'm constantly in dread of GW listening to these people and 180ing the Tyranid vibe.
This is a prime example why gatekeeping is a good thing.
I dunno, the people that want those things didn't come out of nowhere. GW gave them a decade and a half of Superheroes... In Spaaaace! with the Horus Heresy and 40K Guilliman, and GW began to flirt with "Tyranids with personality" in the 5th edition book and the characterization of the Hive Mind in some more recent novels.
Wasn’t the whole “Devastation of Baal” a result of the Hive mind being mad at the Blood Angels and the book explicitly mentions in that it “hates” them
Here’s the full quote:
Spoiler:
The biologans held the hive mind to be only a complicated animal, a supreme predator driven by a devastatingly powerful reactive mind, nevertheless devoid of soul. It was an automaton, they said. Unfeeling. It was as unaware of what it did as the wind is unaware of the cliff whose face it scours away, grain by grain. The hive mind was biological mechanics writ large. Mind from mindlessness.
The Imperial scholars were wrong. The hive mind knew. The hive mind thought, it felt, it hated and it desired. Its emotions were unutterably alien, cocktails of feeling not even the subtle aeldari might decipher. Its emotions were oceans to the puddles of a man’s feelings. They were inconceivable to humanity, for they were too big to perceive.
The hive mind looked out of its innumerable eyes towards the dull red star of Baal. It apprehended that this was the hive of the warriors that had hurt it so grievously, who had burned its feeding grounds and scattered its fleets. It hated the red prey, and it coveted them. Tasting their exotic genomes it had seen potential for new and terrible war beasts.
And so it drew its plans, and it set in motion its trillion trillion bodies towards the consumption of the creatures in red metal, so that their secrets might be plundered, and reemployed in the sating of the hive mind’s endless hunger. This was deliberate, considered, and done in malice.
The hive mind was aware, and it desired vengeance.
That whole quote is basically saying that the Hive Mind isn't a Victorian view of an animal - that of a creature that is unthinking and only operates by instinct alone.
Something that won't change its behaviour, or adapt, or won't hold a grudge. Something that's just a machine running on instinctive code to a set behaviour. Something you can study, predict and anticipate with a high degree of accuracy.
Instead what it is saying is that the Hive Mind is "self aware" as humanity would understand it. It's intelligent, its smart, its alien and its emotional structure isn't how we'd understand it; but it has an awareness. The Blood Angels aren't just "food" or a threat; they are an individual group that the Hive Mind can identify, understand, study and plot against.
It's saying that the actions of the Tyranids are not just a creature living on instinct to consume, but that they are measured attacks - that within the multitude of feeding strikes, it will focus attacks on specific identified threats; that it will operate at a higher level of thinking when tackling greater threats.
It's not so much saying that its a singular living creature with emotions, feelings and its going to visit its therapist on a Wednesday about being abused by Marines; its saying that the Imperium Scientist is realising that they are living with something as complex in thinking as they are. The Tyranids are not just "animals" or lower life forms.
Interesting to see if that rumour turns out to be true, and if so, how big it really is.
For all intents and purposes it's a bad joke that Nids didn't have a Knight-sized monster for ages.. for the faction were towering monstrous shapes in the background have been the default for decades now, lol.
For all intents and purposes it's a bad joke that Nids didn't have a Knight-sized monster for ages.. for the faction were towering monstrous shapes in the background have been the default for decades now, lol.
I only hope that our huge kit will be something able to challenge other factions huge models. Norn Emissary looks to be just a giant assassin/notDimachaeron when what I want is a Baneblade or Stompa equivalent in bio-firepower. Obviously it is a Nid so it still should vreck things in cc but I would be dissapointed when what we get as our biggest plastic kit turns to be just another cc moster.
Is it weird that I would hope they go the opposite route, and give small things that can fight Knights?
The first Octarius book had a unique spore mine that latched onto the filtration systems of the Knights and detonated there, spewing toxic spores into the cockpits while also detonating a pseudo-EMP.
For all intents and purposes it's a bad joke that Nids didn't have a Knight-sized monster for ages.. for the faction were towering monstrous shapes in the background have been the default for decades now, lol.
I only hope that our huge kit will be something able to challenge other factions huge models. Norn Emissary looks to be just a giant assassin/notDimachaeron when what I want is a Baneblade or Stompa equivalent in bio-firepower. Obviously it is a Nid so it still should vreck things in cc but I would be dissapointed when what we get as our biggest plastic kit turns to be just another cc moster.
There's a fair chance it'll be both given the names? Or at least a melee bug and a psychic battery.
I'd argue that a dedicated gun wagon is not really what springs to mind marketing wise for nids though, so it's not likely to be the main thing they want to convey.
Kanluwen wrote:Is it weird that I would hope they go the opposite route, and give small things that can fight Knights?
The first Octarius book had a unique spore mine that latched onto the filtration systems of the Knights and detonated there, spewing toxic spores into the cockpits while also detonating a pseudo-EMP.
I would never say no to more plastic Spore Mines. They are one of my favourite things in Nids army. Meiotic Spore from FW would be sweet to have in new codex.
Dudeface wrote:
I'd argue that a dedicated gun wagon is not really what springs to mind marketing wise for nids though, so it's not likely to be the main thing they want to convey.
It does not have to be a gun wagon but it should have some serious firepower alongside strong cc abilities. In short, more Barbed Hierodule style than Scythed one
Given that Tyranid unit names are sometimes (often? always?) based on Imperial designations for them, I approve of GW deciding to design the "Emissary" as an assassin. That's a darkly humourous callsign for something that hunts down VIPs.
Altruizine wrote: Given that Tyranid unit names are sometimes (often? always?) based on Imperial designations for them, I approve of GW deciding to design the "Emissary" as an assassin. That's a darkly humourous callsign for something that hunts down VIPs.
So today is the day we will get all our bugs' stats. What are you waiting most eagerly on? For me its Warriors. Cannot wait to see what they did to them with that weapon split.
Shadow Walker wrote: So today is the day we will get all our bugs' stats. What are you waiting most eagerly on? For me its Warriors. Cannot wait to see what they did to them with that weapon split.
Tyrant Guard, since they will do a lot to dictate the playability of HTs, Swarmlord, and Neurotyrant.
Also I'm hoping zoanthropes get some crazy anti-tank warp lance again.
Shadow Walker wrote: So today is the day we will get all our bugs' stats. What are you waiting most eagerly on? For me its Warriors. Cannot wait to see what they did to them with that weapon split.
Lictors are always the first thing I check out. They haven't been as killy and dangerous as I'd like for many moons. Although they've snuck through the back door of several updates into "Actually Useful" status, I still want them to return to their glory days.
Shadow Walker wrote: So today is the day we will get all our bugs' stats. What are you waiting most eagerly on? For me its Warriors. Cannot wait to see what they did to them with that weapon split.
Lictors are always the first thing I check out. They haven't been as killy and dangerous as I'd like for many moons. Although they've snuck through the back door of several updates into "Actually Useful" status, I still want them to return to their glory days.
The Leapers do give me hope that Mr Lictor will once again become Assassin Bug Extraordinaire. No problem with it being something you can gang up on and pull all its legs off of, so long as it’s lethal to most characters.
Shadow Walker wrote: So today is the day we will get all our bugs' stats. What are you waiting most eagerly on? For me its Warriors. Cannot wait to see what they did to them with that weapon split.
Lictors are always the first thing I check out. They haven't been as killy and dangerous as I'd like for many moons. Although they've snuck through the back door of several updates into "Actually Useful" status, I still want them to return to their glory days.
The Leapers do give me hope that Mr Lictor will once again become Assassin Bug Extraordinaire. No problem with it being something you can gang up on and pull all its legs off of, so long as it’s lethal to most characters.
If the Norn Emissary is the tank-equivalent assassin bug, the Leapers are elite squad-level assassin bug, the Lictor naturally falls into place for a character-level infiltrator/asssassin. With the addition of genestealers, i hope that there'll be a Vanguard/Infiltration swarm detachment once the codex comes around, it seems like we now have enough vanguard organisms to flesh one out.
Shadow Walker wrote: So today is the day we will get all our bugs' stats. What are you waiting most eagerly on? For me its Warriors. Cannot wait to see what they did to them with that weapon split.
Yeah warriors as I have a bunch I'm finishing painting and they look great.
Hoping our CC generally is good and love to see Zoey's and lictors regaining their status.
If the Norn Emissary is the tank-equivalent assassin bug, the Leapers are elite squad-level assassin bug, the Lictor naturally falls into place for a character-level infiltrator/asssassin. With the addition of genestealers, i hope that there'll be a Vanguard/Infiltration swarm detachment once the codex comes around, it seems like we now have enough vanguard organisms to flesh one out.
Lictor will surely get Precision rule to handle those pesky cowards hiding in the crowd
As to Blast it is a weapon rule in 10th. To quote the leaked core rules:
