A LONG time ago I made a winged tyrant using the old, metal 3rd edition tyrant body, Red Terror head, and some fantasy dragon wings. it looks great, but a tad small. I wonder if it would be more the size of this new flying prime.
Speculation time:
The 10e launch box has a new brainbug that works as reimagined of Doom of Malantai (with callbacks to the original 90's Zoanthrope model) and may effectively replace the Neurothrope. There's also a beefier Warrior Prime that's almost certainly a pushfit model.
With GW's current design approach of allowing game-legal units from a single box of models, the current Warrior and Zoanthrope kits may have issues.
What if the current Prime and Neutrothrope models now become sergeant equivalents and a fixed part of the unit datasheet, rather than a separate character entry? Brainbug takes the former role of the Neurothrope as a separate psychic leader character. Then at some point in future we get a new Primarisified Warrior Prime multipart kit separate from Warriors.
The new brainbug from the trailer is much, much bigger than a mid-sized Nid. The two "attendants" should be around the size of current Zoans, I guess they will be something akin to the pylons for TSK.
Boxes of three for Warriors and Zoans don't really have a problem with unit sizes. Buy one box get a minimum legal unit, buy two boxes get an HQ and a unit of 5 that is better than a unit of six anyways.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Looking optimistically, we can see he is clearly much beefier than the current prime, so if we get a new foot-prime it may be even thicker by comparison (I'm not so optimistic as to hope for dual-build).
I do feel he more or less confirms incoming Shrikes by his simple existence though.
Speculation time:
The 10e launch box has a new brainbug that works as reimagined of Doom of Malantai (with callbacks to the original 90's Zoanthrope model) and may effectively replace the Neurothrope. There's also a beefier Warrior Prime that's almost certainly a pushfit model.
With GW's current design approach of allowing game-legal units from a single box of models, the current Warrior and Zoanthrope kits may have issues.
What if the current Prime and Neutrothrope models now become sergeant equivalents and a fixed part of the unit datasheet, rather than a separate character entry? Brainbug takes the former role of the Neurothrope as a separate psychic leader character. Then at some point in future we get a new Primarisified Warrior Prime multipart kit separate from Warriors.
I honestly expect the current Prime kit to do one of 3 things; become a normal warrior, become a unit sergeant or stay as the ground Prime. I genuinely think we will see the second option and he becomes a Warrior Alpha, akin to that one roided up Von Ryan's Leaper in the box, the one with the crest. Then we will see another stand alone Tyranid Prime kit drop to represent the ground bound warrior prime. The real question would be, what would a Warrior Prime provide to the unit. He has no unique weapon like how a Nob can take a PK, and warriors are synapse so morale buffs are pointless for them. Perhaps he would be a trigger for some sort of ability?
Am I the only one who doesn't like these wings? Maybe I am.
If I end up getting this model (which I probably will), I'll probably use the Parasite of Mortrex or Hive Tyrant wings, whichever looks better. If neither work, I'll probably end up looking around for 3D printer stl's.
Speculation time:
The 10e launch box has a new brainbug that works as reimagined of Doom of Malantai (with callbacks to the original 90's Zoanthrope model) and may effectively replace the Neurothrope. There's also a beefier Warrior Prime that's almost certainly a pushfit model.
With GW's current design approach of allowing game-legal units from a single box of models, the current Warrior and Zoanthrope kits may have issues.
What if the current Prime and Neutrothrope models now become sergeant equivalents and a fixed part of the unit datasheet, rather than a separate character entry? Brainbug takes the former role of the Neurothrope as a separate psychic leader character. Then at some point in future we get a new Primarisified Warrior Prime multipart kit separate from Warriors.
My bet would be that the big brain from the video will be a psychic equivalent of the HT where Neuro will play a role of its smaller and weaker version = Tyranid Prime which basicaly means a psychic lieutenant.
Really solid sculpts for the nids all round. The neurogaunts seemed a bit ehh... at first, but I think that's just the paint job on them. The brain-tyrant looks awesome. Weakest sculpt there is the winged prime, but only because of the wings themselves don't look right.
If I were still into 40k I'd be jumping straight on that gribbly bandwagon. I expecting this new box set to come with an eyewateringly appropriate price tag.
Good Morning Hive mind, Lovely to wake up to the best Named starter ever. Levis bugs are on.
Unpopular opinion but there goes the Good the Bad and the Ugly and the STAR:
The Ugly -
Neurotyrant- Amateur hour kit bash kind of feel to it, the design here is simply add random stuff on top of the mini making it just a mess of carapace bits. Confusing concept ideas and not a good model at all.
Von Ryan’s Leapers- The focus point is the head and the head is again too messy and proportionally weird, it just want to do too much and in the end fails. Talons cool though. This mini will be for me hated till the end of times since I have been waiting for a Lictor for decades and this is not IT!
Psychophage- Oh my where to start? Ash fumes look like froth on top, abdomen too big, head is what exactly? and those limbs are disjointed and so is the connection of the head to the abdomen. A pass here.
The Bad-
Winged Tyranid Prime- well that does not look like a prime at all, the wings are awful and someone should relegate this boring mini to spawning pool
Termagants- Such boring take and still same mistakes of hands with pistols. Boring
Rippers- Look 4 rippers per base? Missed chance to a FW take on swarm. Can someone tell GW that putting them all with thoungue out does not make them scary at all.
The good-
Barbgaunts- Thats it a weapon fused and also wicked 3 limbed creature...this is alien, fresh and novel take on Gaunt weapons I absolutely love this to bits.
Screamer-Killer- Yiiiikes this is good! Yautja head makes me happy inside XD (remove tact rock please) But a more erect carnifex and I love carnifex minis LOVELY!
The Star-
Neurogaunts- This is what I expected and wanted the Nid refresh to be this is superb, smaller gaunts that look Niddy/ alien and scary and something more than copy pasta of old concepts. The Idea is there the mini is there and the Neurogaunt prime is sweeeeeet. I almost want to buy the box just for this kit alone. Yes please bring more of that.
Boxset- A no go for me too many stinkers I will wait for individual kits of Neurogaunts and the Barbgaunts and Screamer killer.
Until GW releases the Lictor I will be hibernating.
Neurotyrant seems very "busy" in terms of detail. Will wait to see what it does in terms of rules to make it different from Zoanthrope. Also notice that like the Psychophage, it seems GW is in the fad of having upper jaw fangs but there is no lower jaw to close against it and actually produce a bite?
Psychophage is a weird concept. Seems far too specialized if its focus is on eating psykers. What would it do if there are none available on the other side? Or can they eat anything and spew their gak but get more powerful effect from consuming psykers?
The barbgaunt seems to be this edition's iteration of the old spike rifle design from 2nd edition, though it seems this time it is more like a frag missile launcher? The old spike rifles were harpoon like and compared to the fleshborer, had weaker S but better AP.
Not sure about the neurogaunts til the rules are known. Are they meant to be cheap Guards for the Neurotyrant? How do they differ from using normal gaunts as ablative shields? The mention of relays for the synaptic netowork perhaps a callback to 3rd edition when some Gaunts could be mutated to be hive nodes?
The Tyranid Prime had me worried, but this is a home run aas far as design is concerned.
However, i'm worried we wont see that many refreshed kits in autumn, and they might trickle some during the edition in Kill Team, Space Hulk, and what else.
Really cool to see so many new designs and ideas. Looks like a lot of support units in the bigger beasties, which is good as we've a lot of offence in that slot already. So they are bringing new things to the table.
Going to have to find someone who wants to do a model swap with the new boxed set cause there's no way I'm missing out on these new models.
Kind of hoping that we still see a few updates to our last finecast models. I do wonder if the pyrovore might have been soft-replaced with the new close range bio-vore design. But we'll have to see.
GaroRobe wrote: I wonder if the psychophage was just a reskinned venomcrawler? They basically have identical body structures
I'm not entirely sure you linked the correct picture here, but it's hilarious anyway
Oh I did. It’s a character from Only Fools and Horses, called Uncle Albert, a notorious bore who often says “during the war” before wibbling on. I’m using it whenever I bring up how much I love RT and 2nd Ed, acknowledging I’m probably boring quite a few Dakkanauts with anecdotes of yesteryear.
Shadow Walker wrote: We have KT reveal on Monday so maybe we will see either Nids (Lictor and friends or pure Stealers KT?) or GSCKT?
Given that the Space hulk saga is supposed to end with the Squats vs Beastmen, it would be funny that they never introduced a genestealer team in a setting that would make the most sense for a bunch of genestealers to be lurking around in.
Unless the next KT is set on a planet that the spacehulk crashed into and everything that survived is running amok (though the lore implies the space hulk is gonna explode)
Neurogaunts look interesting. Curious to see what they do.
Screamer-Killer looks pretty sweet.
Neurotyrant... I like aspects of it, but there seems to be too much carapace. It's a shame as I think the tentacles make for a more interesting design than the current Neurothrope. However, I'd rather they'd just had that as the Neurothrope design, rather than introducing it as a separate creature.
Still not a fan of the Winged Prime. It seems too big and too bulky, to the point where there's little difference between it and the Tyrant.
I expect this will be a minority opinion, but I'd like to see some smaller leader-beasts. Stuff like the original Tyranid Prime and Broodlord (before both came down with Gigantism).
I look at the Neurogaunts and think you could easily make a more elaborate one and have it as a leader. Probably a secondary leader (similar to Lieutenants in other factions), but a character nevertheless.
I don't know, just seems like it would be nice to have some beasts that are leaders without needing to be the size of a 3-bedroom house.
Shadow Walker wrote: We have KT reveal on Monday so maybe we will see either Nids (Lictor and friends or pure Stealers KT?) or GSCKT?
Given that the Space hulk saga is supposed to end with the Squats vs Beastmen, it would be funny that they never introduced a genestealer team in a setting that would make the most sense for a bunch of genestealers to be lurking around in.
Unless the next KT is set on a planet that the spacehulk crashed into and everything that survived is running amok (though the lore implies the space hulk is gonna explode)
The Gallowdark saga is finished but that doesn't mean we won't get another box set on a space hulk. Warcry also get a new starter set in summer before the next season starts in autumn so I could see a "standalone" Space Hulk Terminator vs Genestealer box that is neither part of the Gallowdark saga nor the next one
Shadow Walker wrote: We have KT reveal on Monday so maybe we will see either Nids (Lictor and friends or pure Stealers KT?) or GSCKT?
Given that the Space hulk saga is supposed to end with the Squats vs Beastmen, it would be funny that they never introduced a genestealer team in a setting that would make the most sense for a bunch of genestealers to be lurking around in.
Unless the next KT is set on a planet that the spacehulk crashed into and everything that survived is running amok (though the lore implies the space hulk is gonna explode)
The Gallowdark saga is finished but that doesn't mean we won't get another box set on a space hulk. Warcry also get a new starter set in summer before the next season starts in autumn so I could see a "standalone" Space Hulk Terminator vs Genestealer box that is neither part of the Gallowdark saga nor the next one
I think the smaller boxes and sidegames are an avenue they should continue to explore and expand, because frankly they need an introductory product for each of their universes that does not cost multiple hundred dollars/pounds/euros before you can get your first game in.
Can't spot any weapon options on the Gaunts sprues. Also the video says no glue required for the models in the Leviathan set, so all push-fit.
I wonder if we get a separate Gaunts box with options later on, but judging from the Necron Warriors from Indomitus (which covered all the options), or kits like the new Ork Boyz, I kinda doubt it.
stahly wrote: This video allows a first look at the sprues:
Can't spot any weapon options on the Gaunts sprues. Also the video says no glue required for the models in the Leviathan set, so all push-fit.
I wonder if we get a separate Gaunts box with options later on, but judging from the Necron Warriors from Indomitus (which covered all the options), or kits like the new Ork Boyz, I kinda doubt it.
I hope they release individual kits with better cuts to the sprues than the ones seen on that video, the termagant looks like its 1 full body with just one arm piece with weapons etc.
Another cool feature is that my favourite neurogaunts are actually based on a smaller base than the termagants and look considerably smaller. This is the perfect size for gaunt creature.
Shadow Walker wrote: We have KT reveal on Monday so maybe we will see either Nids (Lictor and friends or pure Stealers KT?) or GSCKT?
Given that the Space hulk saga is supposed to end with the Squats vs Beastmen, it would be funny that they never introduced a genestealer team in a setting that would make the most sense for a bunch of genestealers to be lurking around in.
Unless the next KT is set on a planet that the spacehulk crashed into and everything that survived is running amok (though the lore implies the space hulk is gonna explode)
Im glad they didn't. We've had Space Hulk and Deathwatch Overkill (not necesarily on a hulk) where we've seen stealers, they don't need to show up in every 'hulk' setting. I imagine we will see something GSC or Tyranid in a new KT season or whatever they do with it. The new nidz look amazing. Great box set, though the rumours of BA specific marines not being true was both good and a bit of a shame (being a BA fan)
Shadow Walker wrote: We have KT reveal on Monday so maybe we will see either Nids (Lictor and friends or pure Stealers KT?) or GSCKT?
Given that the Space hulk saga is supposed to end with the Squats vs Beastmen, it would be funny that they never introduced a genestealer team in a setting that would make the most sense for a bunch of genestealers to be lurking around in.
Unless the next KT is set on a planet that the spacehulk crashed into and everything that survived is running amok (though the lore implies the space hulk is gonna explode)
Im glad they didn't. We've had Space Hulk and Deathwatch Overkill (not necesarily on a hulk) where we've seen stealers, they don't need to show up in every 'hulk' setting. I imagine we will see something GSC or Tyranid in a new KT season or whatever they do with it. The new nidz look amazing. Great box set, though the rumours of BA specific marines not being true was both good and a bit of a shame (being a BA fan)
Every Hulk in the galaxy invariably being infested with genestealers is a bit tired now anyway, it detracts from their 'Alien threat' vibes if they're just the bog-standard hazard everyone expects anyway. I'm all for the setting getting weirder in general, with more stuff coming up that has last been seen 30 years ago, or just alluded in the background. We can have e.g. stealers in the jungle going up against Catachans or something like that instead.
Well I love it all, gonna need more than one kit of those for sure!
I just hope they can find a good role for all those support units, we already have a lot of units that aren't really doing anything in the range, so finger's crossed!
I expect this will be a minority opinion, but I'd like to see some smaller leader-beasts. Stuff like the original Tyranid Prime and Broodlord (before both came down with Gigantism).
I look at the Neurogaunts and think you could easily make a more elaborate one and have it as a leader. Probably a secondary leader (similar to Lieutenants in other factions), but a character nevertheless.
Almost feels like your unconscious is more perceptive than your conscious.
I expect this will be a minority opinion, but I'd like to see some smaller leader-beasts. Stuff like the original Tyranid Prime and Broodlord (before both came down with Gigantism).
I look at the Neurogaunts and think you could easily make a more elaborate one and have it as a leader. Probably a secondary leader (similar to Lieutenants in other factions), but a character nevertheless.
Almost feels like your unconscious is more perceptive than your conscious.
No, I saw it.
You realise there's a difference between a lieutenant-equivalent character model and a squad-sergeant, right?
Altruizine wrote: What squads would it be allowed to join? Perhaps Neurogaunts?
I vote we remove all SMHQs lower than the Captain.
They have got sergeants which are apparently exactly the same thing.
I'm vigorously anti-marine, so I'll join your movement.
You said in your initial post that you were probably in the minority for wanting that, and I don't see much reason for piling onto someone who has already acknowledged their idea is goofy, but why do you think more individuals/characters make sense in the Tyranid faction? You're already comparing them to *ranked officers* in other armies, and I doubt you need me to explain why rank is an irrelevant concept, or even a design anathema, for the synapse-organized Tyranids. These critiques seem even more up-front in an edition that is locking characters to joining certain types of squads.
I understand that there's an (imperfect) precedent in Primes, Neuros and Broodlords, but those models were always designed to lead squads of their own type; even when they were technically allowed to join other units they still boasted rules that only worked for their best mates. I dipped at the beginning of 8th so I actually don't know the answer to this, but can they even still join other units? Or were they finally firmly locked to their own type?
So it already seems like you might be getting a "smaller leader beast" (although that sweet boy might just be a synapse-widener type thing). Looking for characters that can hop into various units seems like both a contradiction of the army lore and the new rules design. I don't know that it would add anything of value to the faction.
Altruizine wrote: What squads would it be allowed to join? Perhaps Neurogaunts?
I vote we remove all SMHQs lower than the Captain.
They have got sergeants which are apparently exactly the same thing.
I'm vigorously anti-marine, so I'll join your movement.
Touche.
Altruizine wrote: You said in your initial post that you were probably in the minority for wanting that, and I don't see much reason for piling onto someone who has already acknowledged their idea is goofy, but why do you think more individuals/characters make sense in the Tyranid faction? You're already comparing them to *ranked officers* in other armies, and I doubt you need me to explain why rank is an irrelevant concept, or even a design anathema, for the synapse-organized Tyranids. These critiques seem even more up-front in an edition that is locking characters to joining certain types of squads.
Perhaps I didn't explain myself very well?
I was thinking of characters in terms of the unit type - not special characters (like the Swarmlord).
Also, you say that Tyranids don't have rank, and that's partially true, but I'd argue that some of the leaders seem to have clear priority/dominance over others. In general, armies are pretty much always led by Hive Tyrants (rather than, say, Tyranid Primes or Tervigons).
My comparison to other armies was merely to say that I didn't think a Neurogaunt-Prime (or whatever) would be as likely to lead an army as a Hive Tyrant, thus it would be closer to the Lieutenant in another faction. A secondary HQ.
Altruizine wrote: I understand that there's an (imperfect) precedent in Primes, Neuros and Broodlords, but those models were always designed to lead squads of their own type; even when they were technically allowed to join other units they still boasted rules that only worked for their best mates. I dipped at the beginning of 8th so I actually don't know the answer to this, but can they even still join other units? Or were they finally firmly locked to their own type?
In 9th they don't join units at all. They just need to be near a unit of the appropriate type to boost them (though Broodlords and Neurothropes can also boost other units with psychic powers).
I suspect that will change in 10th, but that's how it's been for the last two editions.
Altruizine wrote: So it already seems like you might be getting a "smaller leader beast" (although that sweet boy might just be a synapse-widener type thing). Looking for characters that can hop into various units seems like both a contradiction of the army lore and the new rules design. I don't know that it would add anything of value to the faction.
I think you're missing my issue.
If the theoretical Neurogaunt-Prime is a character that is locked to joining Neurogaunts (and maybe regular gaunts?), that's fair enough.
However, if it's just a 1-wound Neurogaunt sergeant who's basically identical to the standard squadmates but just has an extra attack or pip of leadership, then it's not any sort of character at all. It's just a squad sergeant.
So far mostly "meh" on new nids. I'll definitely be sticking to the old kit for Screamer Killers. The "Leapers" look decent. Curious to see what the new units do.
Re-putting this here as this is the first love my 'Nids have really got in close to a decade (even if our current Codex is the best Codex they've had since 2nd Ed and has the two most fluffy rules ever created for the 'Nids - Synaptic Links and Bioadaptive Traits):
1. The Tyranid Prime has a boring pose and his wings are coming outta the wrong joint.
2. The Neurotyrant is fething amazing. Surprised at its size - the CGI trailer gave off nearly Silent King levels of size - but either way it's still an awesome looking beastie. Nice to have a new Leader Beast.
3. The Screamer Killer's face has strong Predator vibes. It's weird. As an update to one of my fav models (I have two OG Carnifexes, and one of them is made of lead!) I am greatly pleased by this revision. No so pleased with hits stats though. T9? Why is he the same toughness as a Rhino. It should be tougher than a Rhino. Makes me worry what's going to happen to the smaller Carnifex kit (T8? T7? ).
4. Leapers have grown on me. I still would rather a plastic Lictor, but these minis are fine.
5. Termagants are Termagants. I need more of them like I need a hole in the head.
6. Neurogaunts have an extremely unusual paint job that makes various bits of them look like bionic implants rather than grown creatures. Part of me wants to paint all those bits up metallic and give 'em the odd bit of technical gubbinz and call them a heretical Magos Biologis experiment gone wrong. Honestly not a fan. They feel like the least necessary unit added to the game (a meatshield Tyranid gribbly unit... like Termagants and Hormagaunts already are?). I liked the recolour from a post or two above this one. That looks good.
7. Barbgaunts. Hmm... Well, as someone who was really hoping for a brand new Biovore model that doesn't suck (4th time's a charm!) these were a disappointment. These models suffer the most from the "push fit" design, as they look like 2D miniatures that fit into slotta-bases. There's so much real estate on the base that's empty. We know what they can do with plastics technology, so these being so squished up really doesn't make sense. They should be spread out like Hive/Tyrant Guard.
8. The Psychophage is a complete flip on the Neurotyrant, where I thought it was going to be small but it's the biggest thing in the box! I love it. I think it looks amazing.
Now none of this precludes things like the Lictor or Biovore getting new models (and hopefully the Pyrovore as well!), but in a similar vein to Eldar players (although not to the same degree, given they have literally the oldest models GW still sells), it is annoying to see a big expansion of your chosen faction and find that they're adding tons of new stuff whilst leaving ancient things in the dust. Could be worse though. Could be Dark Eldar, who didn't even get a new model in the last edition or two (Lilith's singular release was a re-release).
3. The Screamer Killer's face has strong Predator vibes. It's weird. As an update to one of my fav models (I have two OG Carnifexes, and one of them is made of lead!) I am greatly pleased by this revision. No so pleased with hits stats though. T9? Why is he the same toughness as a Rhino. It should be tougher than a Rhino. Makes me worry what's going to happen to the smaller Carnifex kit (T8? T7? ).
Yeah, T9 is a dissapointment. Also now, I remember you warning me to be careful of what I want vs what they could release. After the Video I was enthusiastic for SC but now, contrary to most, I really do not like its head (maybe with different paintjob it will grow on me?).
8. The Psychophage is a complete flip on the Neurotyrant, where I thought it was going to be small but it's the biggest thing in the box! I love it. I think it looks amazing.
I think the neurogaunts would look great with a really pale colour scheme, as if they are semitransparent or similar like the Juvies from later Gears of War games.
Psychophage - it is mentioned that they eat enemies, especially psykers, to produce psychoclastic torrent. I could imagine that they have some kind of weak ranged attack that will increase in strenght, penetration and damage after X models eaten, where psykers even double its output.
Depends how they are setup. A few of the new models in the Necron set are all on one easy-built sprue for the starter sets that GW sells along with the big box at the start of the edition.
Eg it might be all the "hero" units are on one sprue - so the Screamerkiller and new winged warrior prime could both be on the same sprue.
It also depends on which kits are going to stay easy build and which will get regular assembly options for their retail release.
Past the starter, Hormagaunts and Genestealer updates would make sense. Lictor needs plastic. Biovore/pyrovore does as well, and would fit well into a EtB kit slot like the Doomstalker or Heavy destroyer. Lord of War and terrain piece are the two roles with no plastic nid kits. That's 6 potential kits for a further release.
To put things in perspective a bit with some stats from 2020/21:
Necrons got roughly 3-4 character models, 3 squads, 2 larger models, 2 LOWs, and a terrain piece with or shortly after their codex
Excluding small single character / support units like cryptothralls, Necrons got 10 new kits in 2020/21. Of those, 3 were updated versions of existing kits, and 7 were brand new units.
They also got 9 character / support units; 2 were updated and 7 were brand new.
In the Leviathan box only the termagant/ripper sprue is a straight up replacement. The others are all either brand new units or new variants of existing things.
Given GW's obvious preference for new over old, a wave of Tyranid kits on par with the Necron codex release doesn't seem that likely to directly replace all of the 5-6 existing models many are expecting it to:
Lictor(s)
Biovores
Pyrovores
Hormagaunts
Genestealers
Carnifex
On that subject, do we think 'Nids would finally get one that isn't a spindly heavy piece of resin that would break if you so much as glanced at it?
The Dominatrix fits that bill. Looks like a Tyranid version of a cow. Big thing, with a big gun, and a big brain bug attached to it. The mod3l in Epic was big and impressive.
GW has been willing to directly swap over FW models from resin to plastic again, and the monolith and gorkanauts were both promoted to lords of war from heavy support. The logical thing would be a kit that makes barbed or scythed heirodule, and bump its stats to somewhere in the range of the gorkanaut or questoris knight.
The Dominatrix fits that bill. Looks like a Tyranid version of a cow. Big thing, with a big gun, and a big brain bug attached to it. The mod3l in Epic was big and impressive.
I could see a reimagined Dominatrix ending up relabelled with the the rumoured 'norn emissary' title, given that name originated alongside accurate leaks for the boxed set.
MajorWesJanson wrote: ... and the monolith and gorkanauts were both promoted to lords of war from heavy support.
Which was a mistake...
MajorWesJanson wrote: The logical thing would be a kit that makes barbed or scythed heirodule, and bump its stats to somewhere in the range of the gorkanaut or questoris knight.
Feth no! You know how great it was to have that those things made into a Heavy Support slot? Moreover, they're around the same size as the Tyrannofex, meaning they shouldn't ever go back to being Lords of War.
More things should be brought into the Heavy Support slot, like the Macharius.
MajorWesJanson wrote: ... and the monolith and gorkanauts were both promoted to lords of war from heavy support.
Which was a mistake...
MajorWesJanson wrote: The logical thing would be a kit that makes barbed or scythed heirodule, and bump its stats to somewhere in the range of the gorkanaut or questoris knight.
Feth no! You know how great it was to have that those things made into a Heavy Support slot? Moreover, they're around the same size as the Tyrannofex, meaning they shouldn't ever go back to being Lords of War.
More things should be brought into the Heavy Support slot, like the Macharius.
Neither Lords of War nor Heavy Support are concepts that exist in 10th edition anyway, from everything revealed so far.
MajorWesJanson wrote: ... and the monolith and gorkanauts were both promoted to lords of war from heavy support.
Which was a mistake...
MajorWesJanson wrote: The logical thing would be a kit that makes barbed or scythed heirodule, and bump its stats to somewhere in the range of the gorkanaut or questoris knight.
Feth no! You know how great it was to have that those things made into a Heavy Support slot? Moreover, they're around the same size as the Tyrannofex, meaning they shouldn't ever go back to being Lords of War.
More things should be brought into the Heavy Support slot, like the Macharius.
Neither Lords of War nor Heavy Support are concepts that exist in 10th edition anyway, from everything revealed so far.
Yup; up to three of anything regardless. Looking at the revealed datasheets there’s no symbol indicating any sort of order of battle. Just the Faction symbol and the keywords, none of which even have the “battleline” tag that enables you to have up to six of a thing. We’ve been assuming that the army list tells you which units get that.
Unrelated; kinda want to make a Dominatrix by fusing a Neurotyrant with a Tyrannofex… except it’s not big or bulky enough.
Before the current models, Hierodules were Titan sized threats so the remade ones could be made bigger again, and they should be as otherwise what makes them different enough from Tyrannofexes? Unless we treat all 3 simply as Nids versions of various super heavies classes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Quite impressed with Genestealers.
Additional wound is nice, re-roll wounds when holding/contesting an objective is nice.
HTHseems a wee bit weedy, but I’m lacking enough Edition Context to say for certain.
5++ is very welcome.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Rupture Cannon is also looking rather buff. Certainly should be capable of kneecapping a Knight with just a modicum of luck.
I wonder now if the Tervigon’s “Spawn Termagants” ability will actually just make that stratagem cheaper (or free) if applied exclusively to gaunt type units?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Definitely looking like something to send up the board to infest a deep field objective and make a nuisance of themselves.
Interesting Synapse doesn’t render one immune to Battleshock though.
Hopefully they’ve made a decision to just not have whole armies switch off key parts of the game and this is merely the first sign. I also hope they stick to it.
Mr_Rose wrote: I wonder now if the Tervigon’s “Spawn Termagants” ability will actually just make that stratagem cheaper (or free) if applied exclusively to gaunt type units?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Definitely looking like something to send up the board to infest a deep field objective and make a nuisance of themselves.
Interesting Synapse doesn’t render one immune to Battleshock though.
Hopefully they’ve made a decision to just not have whole armies switch off key parts of the game and this is merely the first sign. I also hope they stick to it.
I guess they don't even need to word it exclusively for Gaunts, it's tied to the ENDLESS MULTITUDE keyword already, and the only creatures with that we've seen so far are Termagants. I guess they'll use that sparingly.
Also: do i spy the 'chonkier spore mines' Valrak mentioned in that artwork?
They used the current genestealers for the card art. Do we read to far into that assume they’re not being updated? Or assume they’ll be part of a kill team and be released separately from the update, like flayed ones
Termagants, Hormagaunts, Gargoyles, and the new Neurogaunts featured in the Leviathan boxed set all have this keyword. For just a single Command point, you can bring back up to six fallen critters – or take advantage of your Synapse network to target two units at once, and resurrect up to 12 models in each of your turns! That’s a lot of wasted firepower for your opponent
Tervigon might only cast it on Termagants? (Edited for better wording)
GaroRobe wrote: They used the current genestealers for the card art. Do we read to far into that assume they’re not being updated? Or assume they’ll be part of a kill team and be released separately from the update, like flayed ones
Won't the Tyranid cards get replaced almost immediately anyway, when their Codex comes around in autumn? If the 'stealers get an upgrade at the same time they'll just put the new minis on the next iteration of cards.
Shadow in the Warp could be quite powerful, depending on opponent. Shutting down a bunch of units from scoring could potentially swing a game - or buy you a turn to rearrange forces for a concerted effort, without easily ceding VPs to your opponent.
GaroRobe wrote: They used the current genestealers for the card art. Do we read to far into that assume they’re not being updated? Or assume they’ll be part of a kill team and be released separately from the update, like flayed ones
It's up in the air. The Beast Snagga box's Ork Codex used the Finecast/metal Ork Kommando photos for the datasheet.
GW tends to hide new models if they're not up for release, even in Codices that will see those models come out later, so there's every chance there's a new Genestealer kit and we won't know about it until the Tyranid Codex is first revealed.
Every pic in the rulebook book will be the current models.
GaroRobe wrote: They used the current genestealers for the card art. Do we read to far into that assume they’re not being updated? Or assume they’ll be part of a kill team and be released separately from the update, like flayed ones
It's up in the air. The Beast Snagga box's Ork Codex used the Finecast/metal Ork Kommando photos for the datasheet.
It might be that these are the index cards and new stealers come out with the codex hence won't be on the index card.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote: GW tends to hide new models if they're not up for release, even in Codices that will see those models come out later, so there's every chance there's a new Genestealer kit and we won't know about it until the Tyranid Codex is first revealed.
Every pic in the rulebook book will be the current models.
Hell, if the Tyranid Codex came out, with all the new Tyranid models, but a new Genestealer kit was held back for a later KT release (for example), the new Tyranid Codex would probably still have photos of the old models.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Hell, if the Tyranid Codex came out, with all the new Tyranid models, but a new Genestealer kit was held back for a later KT release (for example), the new Tyranid Codex would probably still have photos of the old models.
I have a feeling, with all the vast blank space we see in the cards so far, we are not being shown the actual cards yet. The cards seen so far have not been physical in nature, not in an actual hand, so computer generated. GW is holding back actual pics & info until June. I wouldn’t give any credence to current card “reveals” as they are intentionally misleading so not to spoil stuff to come. Imho.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’m feeling enthused about Nids right now. Premature of course, as this could just be the Good Stuff and everything is….is…..James Corden.
Same. I particularly like how they're handling Synapse- a bonus to morale that doesn't render it completely irrelevant might not be the fearless hive mind we remember of older editions, but it's a good sign that GW doesn't want whole armies to ignore morale again. Plus having it make stratagems more powerful provides tangible incentive to maintain the network, and reason for opponents to target Synapse creatures. Lose the Synapse creatures and your army doesn't fall apart, but they become more susceptible to morale and your force-multipliers become less effective. Simple, clean. Shadow in the Warp forcing an immediate morale test also sounds pretty fun, a nasty thing to sic on the enemy late-game.
Overall it may not be as detailed as the (legitimately cool and fun) rules we got in 9th, but it's also a lot simpler and more straightforward.
Also, about that Genestealer profile- I really like the combo of infiltration deployment and getting a bonus near objectives. It really sells what Genestealers are supposed to do, IMO; scouts that infiltrate important areas and spring a trap on interlopers Aliens-style. More importantly, the fact that the ability is contingent on being near an objective rather than an always-on passive ability adds some nuance to positioning and employment of a melee-only unit. Again, simple rules that convey a lot of flavor and provide some interesting decision space.
Also some props that whilst I said Genestealers are a little wimpier than expected due to S4, D1, their bucket of accurate attacks doesn’t require them to get that objective boost. There are still a load of things they can reliably shred without that.
Though there’s also the other rule shown earlier which boosts performance against certain unit types. I’ll need to dig that up.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Hell, if the Tyranid Codex came out, with all the new Tyranid models, but a new Genestealer kit was held back for a later KT release (for example), the new Tyranid Codex would probably still have photos of the old models.
I have a feeling, with all the vast blank space we see in the cards so far, we are not being shown the actual cards yet. The cards seen so far have not been physical in nature, not in an actual hand, so computer generated. GW is holding back actual pics & info until June. I wouldn’t give any credence to current card “reveals” as they are intentionally misleading so not to spoil stuff to come. Imho.
'Computer generated' isn't a sign of falsehood, just using modern layout and editing tools (which is much more effective and efficient).
Blank spaces are good game design and good use of layout consistency.. You stop when the unit is done, you don't keep adding random bloat until you fill up the available space.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Hell, if the Tyranid Codex came out, with all the new Tyranid models, but a new Genestealer kit was held back for a later KT release (for example), the new Tyranid Codex would probably still have photos of the old models.
I have a feeling, with all the vast blank space we see in the cards so far, we are not being shown the actual cards yet. The cards seen so far have not been physical in nature, not in an actual hand, so computer generated. GW is holding back actual pics & info until June. I wouldn’t give any credence to current card “reveals” as they are intentionally misleading so not to spoil stuff to come. Imho.
'Computer generated' isn't a sign of falsehood, just using modern layout and editing tools (which is much more effective and efficient).
Blank spaces are good game design and good use of layout consistency.. You stop when the unit is done, you don't keep adding random bloat until you fill up the available space.
Blank spaces are also where you can conveniently put things like tokens, wound counters/wound dice, all sorts of other markers you might need or even mark down things with an erasable pen if you laminate your cards.
Black spaces can also be the result of generating a card system that works for all the model range where a few outliers that have way more information to show result in a skewed display; creating more deadspace on regular model cards, but ensuring that all cards achieve the same identical layout
H.B.M.C. wrote: Hell, if the Tyranid Codex came out, with all the new Tyranid models, but a new Genestealer kit was held back for a later KT release (for example), the new Tyranid Codex would probably still have photos of the old models.
I have a feeling, with all the vast blank space we see in the cards so far, we are not being shown the actual cards yet. The cards seen so far have not been physical in nature, not in an actual hand, so computer generated. GW is holding back actual pics & info until June. I wouldn’t give any credence to current card “reveals” as they are intentionally misleading so not to spoil stuff to come. Imho.
'Computer generated' isn't a sign of falsehood, just using modern layout and editing tools (which is much more effective and efficient).
Blank spaces are good game design and good use of layout consistency.. You stop when the unit is done, you don't keep adding random bloat until you fill up the available space.
yup, never said “falsehood” just said we aren’t being shown the actual end product. That’s all.
If I'm not happy with the default layout of the cards, it's easy to make my own in Word (which I'll probably do anyway to make space for Crusade upgrades and experience tracking once I know how it works in 10th).
There will also be plethora of utilities like Pretty Scribe updated within weeks of launch to convert BattleScribe rosters into whatever card format is preferred.
Not liking the blank space on the datacards is a trivial issue to solve.
My main point was to HMBCs post of old genestealers pic on card & that the card is not a pic of a physical card yet & that there may still be a new genestealer kit &/or the pic on card is a placeholder pic as to not ruin the new models reveal…
I wouldn't read too much in these cards. If GW actually updates the stealers they will have new cards. No one knows for sure whats coming and people claiming your going to get this and that, because it makes sense... We are talking GW here so better not get your hopes up.
Grzzldgamerps5 wrote: My main point was to HMBCs post of old genestealers pic on card & that the card is not a pic of a physical card yet & that there may still be a new genestealer kit &/or the pic on card is a placeholder pic as to not ruin the new models reveal…
That's not entirely unreasonable, and could be something they'd do. We saw with the Rhino datasheet (part 1) that they're willingly keeping stuff extremely close to their chests, if the fan theories about them getting increasingly paranoid about 3rd party filemakers preempting official releases with STLs are true there would at least be some reason for it besides the wow effect of a proper reveal.
Asmodai wrote: If I'm not happy with the default layout of the cards, it's easy to make my own in Word (which I'll probably do anyway to make space for Crusade upgrades and experience tracking once I know how it works in 10th).
There will also be plethora of utilities like Pretty Scribe updated within weeks of launch to convert BattleScribe rosters into whatever card format is preferred.
Not liking the blank space on the datacards is a trivial issue to solve.
Another reason to keep the design standardized -- you can out all the data in a database and create a PDF that autofills from that data.
I don’t see four attacks as a ‘bucket full’ , having recently been on the wrong end of World Eaters basic Berzerkers. It’s minimum for an elite unit, IMO. They’ll certainly need that re-roll to wound.
Also, am I misreading or does the Swarmlord have a worse Leadership value than a vanilla Librarian?
Souleater wrote: I don’t see four attacks as a ‘bucket full’ , having recently been on the wrong end of World Eaters basic Berzerkers. It’s minimum for an elite unit, IMO.
From what we’ve seen, it’s the whole of the stat.
A4, S4, Sv-2, D1, WS 2+.
They’re efficient attacks. Few are going to miss. On an objective, those re-rolls are going to help mitigate Naughty Dice and turn Good Dice into God Dice, and make ousting them from that position a tricky job to do.
And you need to consider all the other Nids trying to nibble your bum.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the Swarmlord’s Ld? Kind of. But, it will always be testing on 3D6, as it always benefits from its own Synapse.
I’ve no idea how much difference that makes, or whether you factored it in
Anyone else suspecting the timing of Shadow In The Warp is going to be an important lesson Tyranid players?
We can only do it once (outside of Further Rules) per game. And, it’s not guaranteed to do anything.
I think I’d want to first reserve it for early turns where my opponent might be about to score big on Objectives, and I’m poised to hoof them off said objectives in my next turn?
Souleater wrote: I don’t see four attacks as a ‘bucket full’ , having recently been on the wrong end of World Eaters basic Berzerkers. It’s minimum for an elite unit, IMO. They’ll certainly need that re-roll to wound.
Also, am I misreading or does the Swarmlord have a worse Leadership value than a vanilla Librarian?
The Swarmlord is always within Synapse range of itself, and thus always rolls on 3D6.
6+ on 2D6 has a 72,22% probability of success
7+ on 3D6 has a 90,74% probability of success
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Anyone else suspecting the timing of Shadow In The Warp is going to be an important lesson Tyranid players?
We can only do it once (outside of Further Rules) per game. And, it’s not guaranteed to do anything.
I think I’d want to first reserve it for early turns where my opponent might be about to score big on Objectives, and I’m poised to hoof them off said objectives in my next turn?
It's a very swingy move; used too early and you'll likely do nothing or do something that is undone so fast an opponent can easily recover. Use it too late and the game might already be over for whoever won/lost.
Souleater wrote: I don’t see four attacks as a ‘bucket full’ , having recently been on the wrong end of World Eaters basic Berzerkers. It’s minimum for an elite unit, IMO.
From what we’ve seen, it’s the whole of the stat.
A4, S4, Sv-2, D1, WS 2+.
They’re efficient attacks. Few are going to miss. On an objective, those re-rolls are going to help mitigate Naughty Dice and turn Good Dice into God Dice, and make ousting them from that position a tricky job to do.
And you need to consider all the other Nids trying to nibble your bum.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the Swarmlord’s Ld? Kind of. But, it will always be testing on 3D6, as it always benefits from its own Synapse.
I’ve no idea how much difference that makes, or whether you factored it in
In the case of it not being the whole stat, I hope we see a significant reduction in the whole stat of e.g.Basic Berzerker dudes.
I didn’t factor in the extra dice for synapse because that wasn’t my point…my point was that an Epic Hero has a lower Ld than a vanilla Marine character.
I think that’s gonna be the common usage. Certainly not late enough it itself becomes a Gambit.
Then again……..sods laws is something to be considered, and never trifled with. If I’m going for the Orbital Bombardment Gambit? Let’s face it, Shadow In The Warp is gonna see all my units in position suddenly Besmirch Their Strides and utterly fail!
However mid-game does seem to give the Tyranid player the best result. If it does nothing, game on as usual. But if it performs above expectation (as in the perfect “and then all his units befouled their pantaloons”) it could utterly wreck my opponent, as they miss out on a lot of VPs. Potentially.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Anyone else suspecting the timing of Shadow In The Warp is going to be an important lesson Tyranid players?
We can only do it once (outside of Further Rules) per game. And, it’s not guaranteed to do anything.
I think I’d want to first reserve it for early turns where my opponent might be about to score big on Objectives, and I’m poised to hoof them off said objectives in my next turn?
Use it on theirs to prevent strats, prevent fallback on their turn, or to maintain objective control. Use it on yours to steal objectives for their scoring or stop strats on your turn. In this scenario you go after the objective that had a unit fail so being flexible is key to getting the most out of it - hello gargoyles!
SiTW is also going to depend on what else affects battleshock tests. Tyranids certainly will have at least a few more ways but we also need to know if there are further stuff in the core rules that affect it.
I’m not a big fan of the shadow in the warp ability. It seems a bit swingy and fluff-wise it seems the effect of shadow in the warp should be an always on debuff of some type. Army wide -1 Leadership or some such rather than a one and done power.
That being said, it’s effectiveness likely hinges on how easy it is to modify leadership/battle shock tests and trigger the ability when maximising those modifiers.
Shadow in the Warp is of course swingy. Some games it’ll carry the day alongside a half way competent plan. Other games it’ll do Bugger All, other games it’ll put a dent in your opponent’s best plans. But, it wallops everyone in your opponent’s army.
Oath of Duty is more guaranteed (pick a target, everyone that picks on it does really well), but it’s only the one target. If your opponent chooses poorly, it’s wasted.
Rupture cannon goes from 3 shots doing D6+4, to 2 shots doing 2D6.
So from 5-10 for 3 shots, to 2-12 dmg for 2 shots.
In the meantime, Heavy laser destroyer goes from 2 shots doing D3+3, to 2 shots doing D6+4
So from 4-6 to 5-10 dmg, for 2 shots either way.
I have a very bad feeling for Nids.
Tyrranofex can double out a Rhino - Repulsor can't. Tyrranofex can pick up Lethal Hits, which is as of yet not available to a Repulsor unless some character will provide it.
Shadow in the warp; Once per game force a battleshock table wide. Sounds great until some army is immune to battleshock, or gets rerolls or huge bonuses or is just army wide LD3+ and just negates your army wide rule. Hell, its only like a 28% chance to succeed on space marine rank and file boys, so like 1 in 4 marine units can't capture objective or have strats used for one turn? It's not nothing, and games will be flipped by multiple units failing and scoring zero on primary one turn, but it could just as easily have zero impact on the game. I really hope there are some vicious minuses you can apply to battleshock tests with nids or this is just....dicey at best. Compare this to Oath of moment, which is full reroll to hit and wound on one unit EVERY TURN, which is just a straight force multiplier.
Synapse. Neat, and makes it hard for nids to fail battleshock (Lol, mirror match having synapse work against Shadow in the warp is amusing). From a certain point of view it's a downgrade, as nids were straight immune to morale affects in Synapse previously. I really hope this heralds that NOTHING is immune to battleshock because i'll be annoying if some Commissar makes guardsmen immune, or World Eaters are immune army wide or something.
Swarmlord; Melee damage nerf, both in quantity and quality of attacks....fine, new edition, throttled back damage right? After seeing Guilliman with his INCREASE in damage though? Granted he needed improvements....but jeez. Loss of psychic powers for an up-gunned heavy flamer is rough, especially since nid psychic power skewed towards buffing and debuffing units, and a medium-sized weapon is a weak replacement. Seems like the way psychic powers are going though. His +1cp per turn is great, and probably his best ability. Making CP of abilities cost more feels....weak? The opponent just won't use the strat again, or if it's impactful enough, just pay the price. That's assuming you even make the SL your warlord, which may lock the rest of your army out of "enhancements" which may or may not over-shadow this altogether. The toughness boost is fine, but the loss of wounds is worrying. Willing to give the benefit of the doubt here toughness/survivability wise though.
Genestealers; Great, amazing. No issues here, straight upgrade and might convince me to put them on the table for the first time since 6th edition.
Rupture Cannon; Looks great at first glance, but it's a downgrade from the current version. The strength boost matches the toughness boost, so that's a wash. AP is the same, damage went from D6+4 to 2D6, which is a ~7% damage decrease. Going to heavy is nice, as you hit on a 2+ when stationary (assuming monsters don't always count as stationary in 10th), which is an upgrade. Losing the third shot is a big hit though. Probably a 20-25% damage nerf? Again, if this is what they want in 10th, less damage, then okay? But the repulsor laser destroyer was previewed yesterday with straight upgrades in damage...and again, it needed it, but jeez.
Endless Swarm: Super neat, and might bring swarms and little dudes to the table, which is great.
I don't really mind most of these changes, and might make nids a "battleshock" army, which is an interesting niche to put them in, but this article feels like a marketing failure in what they decided to preview especially right after Space Marines.
Given Synapse doesn’t entirely prevent Battleshock?
Never say never man.
It does point, HEAVILY, to battleshock being something that's not supposed to be ignored on a fundamental level of the game, but that's only if GW sticks to it throughout the edition. Given the last three editions with how things spiraled out of control, combined with their history of morale based mechanics being irrelevant? I have concerns, both short and long term.
I would have wished that Shadow in the Warp could at least have an extra -1 or -2 to the battle shock test of any Psyker units on top. Like, that's what it mostly is for anyway, it's said to drive Psyker particularly crazy when the Tyranids Shadow is present. For a once-per-battle use, it lack a bit of oomph I think
Skywave wrote: I would have wished that Shadow in the Warp could at least have an extra -1 or -2 to the battle shock test of any Psyker units on top. Like, that's what it mostly is for anyway, it's said to drive Psyker particularly crazy when the Tyranids Shadow is present. For a once-per-battle use, it lack a bit of oomph I think
Who knows what Stratagems will interact with it, and which unit abilities... the Maleceptor, for example, is a likely candidate for some morale-reducing ability, but there are of course others. It's just too early to tell when all we have are bits and snippets with almost no context.
Given Synapse doesn’t entirely prevent Battleshock?
Never say never man.
It does point, HEAVILY, to battleshock being something that's not supposed to be ignored on a fundamental level of the game, but that's only if GW sticks to it throughout the edition. Given the last three editions with how things spiraled out of control, combined with their history of morale based mechanics being irrelevant? I have concerns, both short and long term.
The problem with battleshock and other similar morale mechanics like pinning were:
A) There was essentially no counter play. Only in the stratagem era did the possibility of mitigating morale on the table (rather than in list building) even become a possibility.
and
B) It essentially (or literally) removed units from the table. Pinning was as good as killing a unit in 6th and 7th and battleshock literally just did kill units in 8th and 9th. It was so devastating that it couldn't be a valid tactic or you'd have games boil down to 'person who goes first pins/battleshocks off 3/4ths of your army every turn'.
Now that the consequences are still significant but don't just end the game for the player who isn't totally immune, hopefully we won't see the same level of 'fearlessness arms race'.
Carnage43 wrote: Swarmlord; Melee damage nerf, both in quantity and quality of attacks....fine, new edition, throttled back damage right? After seeing Guilliman with his INCREASE in damage though? Granted he needed improvements....but jeez. Loss of psychic powers for an up-gunned heavy flamer is rough, especially since nid psychic power skewed towards buffing and debuffing units, and a medium-sized weapon is a weak replacement. Seems like the way psychic powers are going though. His +1cp per turn is great, and probably his best ability. Making CP of abilities cost more feels....weak? The opponent just won't use the strat again, or if it's impactful enough, just pay the price. That's assuming you even make the SL your warlord, which may lock the rest of your army out of "enhancements" which may or may not over-shadow this altogether. The toughness boost is fine, but the loss of wounds is worrying. Willing to give the benefit of the doubt here toughness/survivability wise though.
Do note that Swarmy has twin-linked on his melee giving full reroll wounds. Additionally, Nids have army wide USRs available through adaptation instead of getting them by adding a character to the unit. And when an opponent has only 6 faction stratagems targeting a crucial one to be more expensive when you start at 0CP and gain 1 a turn will be fairly strong.
But the repulsor laser destroyer was previewed yesterday with straight upgrades in damage...and again, it needed it, but jeez.
The T'Fex is on par with Repulsor and potentially slightly better even without the adaptation.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Skywave wrote: I would have wished that Shadow in the Warp could at least have an extra -1 or -2 to the battle shock test of any Psyker units on top. Like, that's what it mostly is for anyway, it's said to drive Psyker particularly crazy when the Tyranids Shadow is present. For a once-per-battle use, it lack a bit of oomph I think
Fluff-wise yes, but then you're suddenly punishing specific armies really horribly by comparison.
RaptorusRex wrote: Shadow of the Warp might be able to wrongfoot the armies with weaker LD pretty badly, but yeah, it's something you want to use carefully.
I think in general low LD armies will be able to put more units on the table so failures aren't as critical. Putting a crushing ability on elite armies like TS or GK would just make them a bad-matchup into Nids.
I feel a faction ability not being a win button unto itself is something praise worthy.
Lots of people are worried about OoM, but I think it will be interesting to play around. It will often be just one unit. Predicting which unit the opponent will target will be done by checking ranges on weapons and assessing their capabilities of taking the target out as well as their mission priorities. From there I position a long range counter-fire unit that is capable of severely hurting an element that moves into range. Once they do I'll overwatch into them and hope I can remove enough of their damage potential. Perhaps even just trying to bait them to range to a unit of mine that's a bit deeper letting my other elements get closer if they do.
I’d venture the natural counter to OoM is ‘oh Noes…don’t shoot me. Not the sacrificial prawn’. As in when you’re playing against Maureens, just accept one unit a turn is gonna get particularly wrecked, and plan around that.
Combining the shadow in the warp with the swarm lord’s ability to add one CP to the cost of the auto-pass morale strategem (assuming there still is one) cost could be quite effective.
Shadow in the Warp is going to be one of the two rules that define all Tyranid armies for 10th. The rule that every detachment has, no matter the theme or structure of the army, or whatever other rules they get.
How lame is that?
Given everything they could have done, and all the great rules we currently have, they chose to take our middling anti-psyker rule and turn it into a one-per-game thing and this is one of the two rules we get until 11th.
I said right at the start of this whole 10th palaver that I was less concerned about what we are getting, and more worried about what we were losing. Well, today 'Nids got a little more vanilla flavoured. A little more greyscale. Are we sure Cruddace isn't writing our books again?
I think its too early to panic. This is the start of a new edition so a lot of things are going to shift around. If perhaps we've weaker tools and stats starting to happen that could be a very good thing. A big complaint of the previous edition was it was getting too lethal.
It's a hard thing to balance in because everyone wants their army(ies) to be strong on the table; but at the same time a healthy game wants the game to last beyond turn 2. So having some options get weaker or shift around isn't outright bad.
We also can't easily debate these things in isolation until we know more about the army; about how things work; synergies that might be present. etc.
It's not panicking. It's despair over a tremendously boring new rule, a core rule, a defining rule. Over losing rules that were both mechanically clever and elegant, but also so linked to the fluff of the army that they did that rare thing where something was powerful because it was fluffy, and not the opposite. Shadow of the Warp is now how GW defines Tyranids for 10th. This is how GW sees Tyranids.
It's so dull it makes me want to claw my ovipositor out with a rusty rending claw!
Overread wrote: A big complaint of the previous edition was it was getting too lethal.
Overread wrote: I think its too early to panic. This is the start of a new edition so a lot of things are going to shift around. If perhaps we've weaker tools and stats starting to happen that could be a very good thing. A big complaint of the previous edition was it was getting too lethal.
It's a hard thing to balance in because everyone wants their army(ies) to be strong on the table; but at the same time a healthy game wants the game to last beyond turn 2. So having some options get weaker or shift around isn't outright bad.
We also can't easily debate these things in isolation until we know more about the army; about how things work; synergies that might be present. etc.
The strength of the rule is irrelevant, because it's stunningly boring.
You get to make one decision per game. I literally don't know how many turns are in a game anymore, but, like... 5? So a Tyranid player is going to be choosing between five values/outcomes in every game they play.
Meanwhile, a player using Oath of Moment will be choosing between that many or more outcomes on every turn of the game. There's an insane gap in terms of fun/engagement/interactivity between these two army rules.
At the very least Shadow should let you pick one unit per turn to roll a battle shock test.
I think the new Shadows in the Warp gets even worse when there's inevitably--assuming Space Marines don't just flat out come out of the box with it--going to be something that completely or partially invalidates it as an option, like auto passing battleshock tests, being immune to morale, etc.
I dunno, the ability just seems too easy to ignore or blunt, unless there's a wrinkle that's not being shown like if synapse creatures could be given auras to reduce LD or something.
Reminds me of 4th when there was a chunky section of the rulebook dedicated to resolving close combat...and Space Marines essentially got to ignore the worst parts of it with ATSKNF.
Overread wrote: I think its too early to panic. This is the start of a new edition so a lot of things are going to shift around. If perhaps we've weaker tools and stats starting to happen that could be a very good thing. A big complaint of the previous edition was it was getting too lethal.
It's a hard thing to balance in because everyone wants their army(ies) to be strong on the table; but at the same time a healthy game wants the game to last beyond turn 2. So having some options get weaker or shift around isn't outright bad.
We also can't easily debate these things in isolation until we know more about the army; about how things work; synergies that might be present. etc.
The strength of the rule is irrelevant, because it's stunningly boring.
You get to make one decision per game. I literally don't know how many turns are in a game anymore, but, like... 5? So a Tyranid player is going to be choosing between five values/outcomes in every game they play.
Meanwhile, a player using Oath of Moment will be choosing between that many or more outcomes on every turn of the game. There's an insane gap in terms of fun/engagement/interactivity between these two army rules.
At the very least Shadow should let you pick one unit per turn to roll a battle shock test.
Mind you, Shadow is one of two faction rules. Synapse is the other.
'Boring' might not to be everyone's taste, but it doesn't have to stack up on its own against Oath, because 'nids are simultaneously buffering their units against battleshock.
Different armies are going to rely on different levels of passive or active effects.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Shadow in the Warp is going to be one of the two rules that define all Tyranid armies for 10th. The rule that every detachment has, no matter the theme or structure of the army, or whatever other rules they get.
How lame is that?
Given everything they could have done, and all the great rules we currently have, they chose to take our middling anti-psyker rule and turn it into a one-per-game thing and this is one of the two rules we get until 11th.
I said right at the start of this whole 10th palaver that I was less concerned about what we are getting, and more worried about what we were losing. Well, today 'Nids got a little more vanilla flavoured. A little more greyscale. Are we sure Cruddace isn't writing our books again?
Shadow of the Warp has been one of the crappiest, most boring and uninspired abilities in the game's history for at least 15 years. To frame it in your words, if your concern is "what we're losing" the answer is "nothing" because at absolute worst the new iteration is a neutral change to what we had before and at best it's simply a better rule. The rest of your post is histrionic. The early codices always get more stuff as the edition goes on.
BlaxicanX wrote: ... if your concern is "what we're losing" the answer is "nothing"...
We lost Synaptic Link, one of best interactions of fluff and rules I've seen GW manage in decades (the other is the adaptive physiology rules, which are kinda-sorta still there, for one specific detachment, again, not a defining part of Tyranids, just one detatchment). And in its place our faction-defining rule is this bland piece of gak rule.
So don't tell me we've lost nothing.
"Early Codices always get more stuff" is a lame excuse. "Shadow of the Warp was always gak though" is a worse excuse.
Shadow in the Warp isn't our main army-wide ability, though. Synapse is.
Having a bonus to leadership tests plus magnified stratagems is a pretty significant ability, and that's going to drive a lot of moment-to-moment decision-making about positioning and prioritization.
SitW is then a once-per-game ability on top of that. Not nearly as impactful turn-by-turn as deciding what to target for Oath of Moment, but it has the potential to be a game-changer if morale ends up actually being relevant.
Just seems a little myopic to me to hyperfocus on what SitW does. Synapse + SitW are the two defining army characteristics of Tyranids going all the way back to the beginning, and this is a more impactful implementation of the latter than we've ever had.
Yes, and what we lost to get the most boring version of SitW ever committed to paper was something that was fantastic. Doesn't even matter if it's powerful, or useful. It's boring.
Synaptic Links on the other hand introduced a new element of position and manoeuvre to Tyranids, something the game as a whole needs more of. It opened up all sorts of new strategies, and made your army feel like more of a single organism responding to threats rather than individual units. It was a rule that better represented the Hive Mind aspect of the Tyranids than any any before it (and, so far, any since).
Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I find an iteration of SitW where you actually get to make a decision- and potentially a very significant one at that- much less boring than a passive penalty to psychic powers.
What you describe for synaptic links is what I see Synapse doing in 10th, much moreso than it did in 9th.
I understand the view that nids just got a little more plain, I'd agree they did, I'd also imagine most factions likely will. But it is a huge boost in accessibility, the whole daisy chaining ability triggered off a unit that radically alters how things work isn't necessarily easy for new players to grasp.
I think it was less the Synaptic Link rule and more some of the other layered rules that used them: Synaptic Imperatives and then unit-specific link rules like Will of the Hive Mind, or Warp Siphon or Vicious Insight.
In previous editions of this game loyalist Marines got to reroll morale tests because GW didn’t think them running like whipped dogs was themeatic.
I am pretty sure as someone above said that either on launch or after a few months of ‘player’s reporting that Marines don’t quite live up to the novels’ they will simply get to reroll morale tests.
Or they will get to use Insane Bravery more often than other armies.
Neither would make them immune to battleshock, of course but it would mean - yet again - the most popular army…the one whose players most often complained about morale not mattering…will be amongst the least affected.
This is my gut feeling based the rules we have seen so far.
To be fair, they're not really running away with Battleshock, more becoming suppressed.
Overall I don't think that "Oath of Moment" really captures the identity of Marines. A rule called They Shall Know No Fear that plays with leadership or how they control objectives or something like that would be a better substitute, but I suspect they don't want to create a new morale system and then immediately create an army that ignores it (it's also why Synapse doesn't do that either).
Really Oath of Moment should be the attachment ability and Doctrines should be their core rule. Flipping those around makes far more thematic sense. This whole "Oath of Moment" feels like it's been pulled out of very recent history and they're trying to convince us that it's simply intrinsic to how Marines operate.
I mean imagine if "Red Wunz Go Fasta" was the main Ork rule, but "WAAAAGH!" became a detachment rule. That's how I feel about Oath vs Doctrines in 10th.
This is my gut feeling based the rules we have seen so far.
Incorrect. As nothing in rules we have seen indicates that(marines get no morale rules, no immune to battleshock rules) it can't be based on what we have seen which indicates opposite.
It's your gut feeling based on your fears. Simple as that.
Maybe it comes true gw being gw but it isn't based on what we have seen so far.
This is my gut feeling based the rules we have seen so far.
Incorrect. As nothing in rules we have seen indicates that(marines get no morale rules, no immune to battleshock rules) it can't be based on what we have seen which indicates opposite.
It's your gut feeling based on your fears. Simple as that.
Maybe it comes true gw being gw but it isn't based on what we have seen so far.
It bears repeating that both Marines and Tyranids will get their codex in short order. What we're currently seeing is basically the 'get you by' version of their rules. I recommend waiting for the Codexes to gauge where 10th is really going, for some reason i don't think they worked their arses off for cards that they knew were getting replaced within half a year.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'd be very surprised if we don't see carbon copies of these faction and detachment rules in the upcoming Codices.
For the record, i agree with you that Oath of Moment and Doctrines should be flipped around from Faction and Detachment, and Synapse would be a better Faction for Tyranids than SitW. Having Doctrines be the unifying thing between Codex-compliant chapters is just logical, i have no clue why they did it the other way around.
I’d venture the natural counter to OoM is ‘oh Noes…don’t shoot me. Not the sacrificial prawn’. As in when you’re playing against Maureens, just accept one unit a turn is gonna get particularly wrecked, and plan around that.
Keep it pg please.
I am a little concerned because some armies like Knights and Custodes don't really have sacrificial prawn units. Sisters might be it for custodes but knights?
It's not panicking. It's despair over a tremendously boring new rule, a core rule, a defining rule. Over losing rules that were both mechanically clever and elegant, but also so linked to the fluff of the army that they did that rare thing where something was powerful because it was fluffy, and not the opposite. Shadow of the Warp is now how GW defines Tyranids for 10th. This is how GW sees Tyranids.
It's so dull it makes me want to claw my ovipositor out with a rusty rending claw!
Overread wrote: A big complaint of the previous edition was it was getting too lethal.
This has nothing to do with lethality.
I think it's pretty interesting. It's not something you fire off wildly with abandon. And it's far beyond more engaging than -1 to psychic tests and extra MW on perils. And Synapse is way better than just ignore morale.
Imperatives got sacrificed on the altar, but you're likely to see more interesting abilities on datasheets.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Altima wrote: I think the new Shadows in the Warp gets even worse when there's inevitably--assuming Space Marines don't just flat out come out of the box with it--going to be something that completely or partially invalidates it as an option, like auto passing battleshock tests, being immune to morale, etc.
I dunno, the ability just seems too easy to ignore or blunt, unless there's a wrinkle that's not being shown like if synapse creatures could be given auras to reduce LD or something.
Reminds me of 4th when there was a chunky section of the rulebook dedicated to resolving close combat...and Space Marines essentially got to ignore the worst parts of it with ATSKNF.
We've seen everything the marines can get from army rules. We've seen their datasheets. There is no ASTKNF. When even Nids don't get immunity then no one does.
Will there be an auto-pass? Probably, but with 0CP to start you better start saving early.
We've seen everything the marines can get from army rules. We've seen their datasheets. There is no ASTKNF. When even Nids don't get immunity then no one does.
Will there be an auto-pass? Probably, but with 0CP to start you better start saving early.
Except we've just gotten the CSM spotlight and ol' Abby has an aura which grants rerolls to leadership and battleshock tests. It seems naive to think that Space Marines specifically and every other army in general won't have access to shenanigans that will blunt or entirely eliminate Shadows in the Warp. There's the possibilities of banners, icons, vox casters, psychic powers, etc. being able to interfere even if there's no army rule that says they get to ignore the effect.
Which makes the ability kind of a dumb.
Imagine if armies got the ability to shift OoM from any unit targeted within 6" of an HQ to any other unit on the board, and could just flat out eliminate it once per game or with 1CP. Suddenly it sounds a lot less attractive, doesn't it? It's like that.
Maybe Shadows in the Warp will be super amazing, but all signs point to it being mediocre garbage, and GW's rules have long, long ago lost the benefit of the doubt.
We've seen everything the marines can get from army rules. We've seen their datasheets. There is no ASTKNF. When even Nids don't get immunity then no one does.
Will there be an auto-pass? Probably, but with 0CP to start you better start saving early.
Except we've just gotten the CSM spotlight and ol' Abby has an aura which grants rerolls to leadership and battleshock tests. It seems naive to think that Space Marines specifically and every other army in general won't have access to shenanigans that will blunt or entirely eliminate Shadows in the Warp. There's the possibilities of banners, icons, vox casters, psychic powers, etc. being able to interfere even if there's no army rule that says they get to ignore the effect.
Which makes the ability kind of a dumb.
Imagine if armies got the ability to shift OoM from any unit targeted within 6" of an HQ to any other unit on the board, and could just flat out eliminate it once per game or with 1CP. Suddenly it sounds a lot less attractive, doesn't it? It's like that.
Maybe Shadows in the Warp will be super amazing, but all signs point to it being mediocre garbage, and GW's rules have long, long ago lost the benefit of the doubt.
Here's what you do -- target Abaddon's unit and expose him before you use SitW. Tactics!
Also I am unsure how GW will handle colliding player activations in the same phase, but on your own command phase SitW is completely unimpeded if Abby has chosen a different ability on his turn.
And given that breaking a unit turns strats off and the Obscuration strat is used when you target then breaking them on your turn when the other aura is off will allow you to target a unit they might not want you to.
Just the multiple levels of choice here is well beyond the binary some people seem to think it is.
@tneva82: While fear would surely be an entirely appropriate reaction to the topic of Morale, my statement is more laced with mild cynicism.
Over various editions, loyalist Marines have been lightly touched by Morale. People are excited by the idea of morale actually mattering in Xth at the moment but I'm old, and sceptical about Marine players feeling the same way once their own troops start losing Objectives, etc. when Battleshock actually starts doing something to them. At that point I expect folks to start complaining that it isn't 'lore friendly' or the like.
GW has in the past addressed such concerns by adding new rules for Marines. My suspicion - and it is only that, but a very strong one - is that the same thing will happen again.
The slightly rambling 'why I feel this from what we've seen so far' is stuff like the Rupture Cannon going from 'very consistent' to 'rather swingy'. While the Marine equivalent got a solid buff and kept consistency. Or that the Screamer-Killer that has to run across the board has lower T and Wounds than the shiny new Dreadnought shooting at it.
And the response is generally 'but we don't know points' - which is true but misses my point. A Tyranid big tough stompy thing should probably be as least as tough and faster than the Marine big stompy thing that gets to shoot it in the face with multiple guns. I get the impression (which may be entirely unfair, of course) that when folks allude to lower cost they're actually saying that the NPCs shouldn't be a tough as the Heroes.
See also Monoliths getting their 'No - you move!' Deep Strike rule stolen by Marines. Marine flyers being as fast as but more heavily armed and armoured transports than Eldar dedicated fighter-bombers. Again I heard 'but points!' and yet again my response is that Marines just shouldn't be as fast as e.g. glass-cannon Eldar.
Here's another example. The original No Retreat! rule was designed to speed up drawn out melee combats and represent heavily-outnumbered troops being buried under an avalanche of enemies. And it worked. A squad of Space Wolves would munch half a squad of Hormaguants in a single round, might lose one or two models to the enemy and then they might lose a model to No Retreat! But in the next edition the rule was completely reversed and we had an edition of exploding gaunts. Lost combat? Never mind! Take way more casualties because you're Fearless! instead!
So, this isn't me claiming that the sky is falling** or that Nids are unplayable. That would indeed be rubbish. It's a slightly Grimdark-world-weary raised eyebrow at the idea that Marines wont' get something added to offset Battleshock.
*probably just loyalist ones.
** although I would appreciate a few more 'you don't know all the rules yet, pipe down!' comments to people being positive. Sauce for the goose, Mr Saavik.
Correct me if I am wrong but they said on Warhammerfest that new Combat Patrol will basically be everything from Leviathan minus SC, Neuro Tyrant and Neurogaunts, right?
GW still can't write equipment rules:
- Some of the Legionary equipment is delegated to the armory. Now, what is an armoury card, we were told there would be no need for any external rules. This does not bode well at all, they are already breaking their own system on day one.
- "One model can be equiped with an Chaos Icon" so even the aspiring champion? Even a model that carries a heavy weapon? I don't believe that this is intended. Sounds like day one FAQ/Errata incoming. It's funny considering GW had decades to figure out how to describe in easy words, how the selection and limitation of equipment should work.
I don't really see a meaningful reduction in lethality. End of 9th was crazy over the top lethal.10th so far looks over the top lethal. Maybe no longer crazy. But still way too much. Most models pour out so much damage that they will kill their own equivalent in 1 or 2 turns max on a very reliable basis. 75%+ of the armies will be shelving by turn 4.
SotW sounds in fact a bit underwhelming. 6+ on 2d6 is 72%. Anything meaningful likely will have 6+ LD. That means only a quarter of the enemy force might, for one turn, be a little bit less effective. What difference does it make, if said unit is likely dead next turn anyway, because see last point. It should have been a lot harder, either can be used 2-3 times per game or with a modifier of -2 to leadership. Well maybe that comes still, there might be units affecting it.
Overall my impression is, GW is still creating some if not the most beautiful minitures under the sun. But the rules so far make me want to skip this edition yet again.
I like the new Shadow myself. I like that it promotes tactical use, I like that it is a lot less niche than a psyker penalty, and I feel that it better represents the fluff for it on the tabletop.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
GiToRaZor wrote: Some of the Legionary equipment is delegated to the armory. Now, what is an armoury card, we were told there would be no need for any external rules.
Personally I'm confident it is just going to be an extra 'unit card' included in the pack with everything else that has weapon rules on it, which would remain within the 'no external rules' claim.
GW still can't write equipment rules:
- Some of the Legionary equipment is delegated to the armory. Now, what is an armoury card, we were told there would be no need for any external rules. This does not bode well at all, they are already breaking their own system on day one.
- "One model can be equiped with an Chaos Icon" so even the aspiring champion? Even a model that carries a heavy weapon? I don't believe that this is intended. Sounds like day one FAQ/Errata incoming. It's funny considering GW had decades to figure out how to describe in easy words, how the selection and limitation of equipment should work.
I don't really see a meaningful reduction in lethality. End of 9th was crazy over the top lethal.10th so far looks over the top lethal. Maybe no longer crazy. But still way too much. Most models pour out so much damage that they will kill their own equivalent in 1 or 2 turns max on a very reliable basis. 75%+ of the armies will be shelving by turn 4.
SotW sounds in fact a bit underwhelming. 6+ on 2d6 is 72%. Anything meaningful likely will have 6+ LD. That means only a quarter of the enemy force might, for one turn, be a little bit less effective. What difference does it make, if said unit is likely dead next turn anyway, because see last point. It should have been a lot harder, either can be used 2-3 times per game or with a modifier of -2 to leadership. Well maybe that comes still, there might be units affecting it.
Overall my impression is, GW is still creating some if not the most beautiful minitures under the sun. But the rules so far make me want to skip this edition yet again.
It's just going to be an extra datacard in the box for reference. It's hardly a cardinal sin nor is it "external rules".
The chaos icon can go on any model just like how I put icon of flame on my rubric soulreapers and missile racks on my soulreaper scarabs. It doesn't need to be restricted to a specific model as it's not a hand-held item.
I don't really see a meaningful reduction in lethality. End of 9th was crazy over the top lethal.10th so far looks over the top lethal. Maybe no longer crazy. But still way too much. Most models pour out so much damage that they will kill their own equivalent in 1 or 2 turns max on a very reliable basis. 75%+ of the armies will be shelving by turn 4.
When you say this could you point out one specific example that makes you think this?
Shadow Walker wrote: Correct me if I am wrong but they said on Warhammerfest that new Combat Patrol will basically be everything from Leviathan minus SC, Neuro Tyrant and Neurogaunts, right?
Yeah this is it:
Spoiler:
Should be £95 / $150, compared to Leviathan's £150 / $250
Daedalus81 wrote: Imperatives got sacrificed on the altar, but you're likely to see more interesting abilities on datasheets.
Wasn't talking about Synaptic Imperatives...
NinthMusketeer wrote: Personally I'm confident it is just going to be an extra 'unit card' included in the pack with everything else that has weapon rules on it, which would remain within the 'no external rules' claim.
Yeah I could see them being unit-specific, for those rare units that have loads of options (here's hoping one of those is the good 'ol Carnifex! ) rather than a general weapon list that tries to cover the whole army.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Personally I'm confident it is just going to be an extra 'unit card' included in the pack with everything else that has weapon rules on it, which would remain within the 'no external rules' claim.
Yeah I could see them being unit-specific, for those rare units that have loads of options (here's hoping one of those is the good 'ol Carnifex! ) rather than a general weapon list that tries to cover the whole army.
They managed to get 13 weapon profiles (2 for the Plasma Pistol) onto that data card. The probably could have fit a 14 given the space below the Melee Weapons. So I expect that is the line you should look for when it comes to units that need to reference the Heretic Astartes Weapon Card. They will almost certainly be items that can be taken by multiple units, so things like Heavy Bolter, Missile Launcher and other items missing from the Legionaries card that are used by other units.
I doubt more unique models will require such a card since they don't have that many options. Today's Carnifex only has 10 weapon options, so that should all fit on the card.
Obviously space marines and guard, likely craftworld eldar (for heavy weapons on vehicles or gun platforms primarily), maybe dark eldar and Space Dwarfs (sadly I'd lean more toward the latter of these two). Possibly also GSC if they can still borrow Guard stuff.
Everybody else is pretty restricted and/or specialized in their weapon loadouts, even on their most diverse units. I think even tau battlesuits can be managed on their own card, as the lack of melee options helps quite a bit. While tyranids have a pile of different weapons, they aren't open to a lot of choice on a unit by unit basis. Warriors and fexes come closest, but can likely fit
For others... Necrons top out at 7 options on the overlord (with a dual profile for staff of light). Daemons don't really even play this game. Orks are pretty bare bones within a single unit, with only the nobz really stretching things (and not as much as they used to).
Sisters are largely confined to their holy trinity.
I mean the Armoury Card could literally just have:
Unit X: Weapon A Weapon B Weapon C
Unit Y: Weapon D Weapon E Weapon F
Unit Z: Weapon G Weapon H Weapon I Weapon J
... and be as simple as that. Cover everything off in one card. There's nothing wrong with that (besides the obvious caveat that buying GW printed material is a mug's game given how long it lasts before it's invalidated).
Its worth noting that the Chaos Marines only have heavy bolter, lascannon, missile launcher and plasma gun called out. Chaincannon, autocannon, meltagun and flamer aren't indicated as being on the armory card. That implies they're just going to be on the unit card of units that can take them.
As in, havocs will have 'havoc autocannon' and 'chaincannon' on their own card, and chosen will continue 9th edition's policy of telling chaos players they can only use that box of highly specific guys with no ranged options better than plasma pistols or combi-weapons..
Shadow Walker wrote: Correct me if I am wrong but they said on Warhammerfest that new Combat Patrol will basically be everything from Leviathan minus SC, Neuro Tyrant and Neurogaunts, right?
Yeah this is it:
Spoiler:
Should be £95 / $150, compared to Leviathan's £150 / $250
If its at £150 its quite a nice price for whats in the box and I get the feeling its going to sell extremely fast.
The content of the combat patrol is quite nice too, I wonder if they are going to do the 3 different sizes starter box sets with this new edition.
I'm waiting on the individual kits to see if they will be multipart instead with some extra options. Im thinking after summer or potentially Christmas.
I'm waiting on the individual kits to see if they will be multipart instead with some extra options. Im thinking after summer or potentially Christmas.
Termas as a multipart kit are a given as their datasheet already confirmed Devourers and Spinefist still there. SC could be a part of a new Carnifex kit or either be remade as a separate posable one (I doubt it) or stay as the current pushfit. Barbgaunts are possible too if they have some different ranged weapons. The rest? Rippers, only if Sky Slashers are in the codex. Neurogaunts are meant to be a cheap shields so unlikely to have any options. Neuro Tyrant probably has only its floating brains as a wargear. Psychophage, only if it is a part of a dual kit. Ryans are just budget Lictors so unlikely to have any options. Winged Prime, being derived from a Warrior genus, is a strong candidate for a multipart, no matter if it is a part of a future Shrikes kit or a separate one.
I'm waiting on the individual kits to see if they will be multipart instead with some extra options. Im thinking after summer or potentially Christmas.
Termas as a multipart kit are a given as their datasheet already confirmed Devourers and Spinefist still there. SC could be a part of a new Carnifex kit or either be remade as a separate posable one (I doubt it) or stay as the current pushfit. Barbgaunts are possible too if they have some different ranged weapons. The rest? Rippers, only if Sky Slashers are in the codex. Neurogaunts are meant to be a cheap shields so unlikely to have any options. Neuro Tyrant probably has only its floating brains as a wargear. Psychophage, only if it is a part of a dual kit. Ryans are just budget Lictors so unlikely to have any options. Winged Prime, being derived from a Warrior genus, is a strong candidate for a multipart, no matter if it is a part of a future Shrikes kit or a separate one.
Barbgaunts probably come in a box that also builds Shirleygaunts and Bettygaunts
I think the Barbgaunts might be a alternative build for Biovores actually; if you removed the whole back ridge and the gun, you could put a center-line Bio/Pyrovore gun there; the orkish features could be there in an alternative head.
I'm waiting on the individual kits to see if they will be multipart instead with some extra options. Im thinking after summer or potentially Christmas.
Termas as a multipart kit are a given as their datasheet already confirmed Devourers and Spinefist still there. SC could be a part of a new Carnifex kit or either be remade as a separate posable one (I doubt it) or stay as the current pushfit. Barbgaunts are possible too if they have some different ranged weapons. The rest? Rippers, only if Sky Slashers are in the codex. Neurogaunts are meant to be a cheap shields so unlikely to have any options. Neuro Tyrant probably has only its floating brains as a wargear. Psychophage, only if it is a part of a dual kit. Ryans are just budget Lictors so unlikely to have any options. Winged Prime, being derived from a Warrior genus, is a strong candidate for a multipart, no matter if it is a part of a future Shrikes kit or a separate one.
Barbgaunts probably come in a box that also builds Shirleygaunts and Bettygaunts
I think the Barbgaunts might be a alternative build for Biovores actually; if you removed the whole back ridge and the gun, you could put a center-line Bio/Pyrovore gun there; the orkish features could be there in an alternative head.
Scale might be off? The barbgaunts look to be on 40mms, while the bio/pyro fill up 60mms pretty well. At least looking at GW’s website, my biovores are old, metal, and on squares.
I'm waiting on the individual kits to see if they will be multipart instead with some extra options. Im thinking after summer or potentially Christmas.
Termas as a multipart kit are a given as their datasheet already confirmed Devourers and Spinefist still there. SC could be a part of a new Carnifex kit or either be remade as a separate posable one (I doubt it) or stay as the current pushfit. Barbgaunts are possible too if they have some different ranged weapons. The rest? Rippers, only if Sky Slashers are in the codex. Neurogaunts are meant to be a cheap shields so unlikely to have any options. Neuro Tyrant probably has only its floating brains as a wargear. Psychophage, only if it is a part of a dual kit. Ryans are just budget Lictors so unlikely to have any options. Winged Prime, being derived from a Warrior genus, is a strong candidate for a multipart, no matter if it is a part of a future Shrikes kit or a separate one.
Barbgaunts probably come in a box that also builds Shirleygaunts and Bettygaunts
I think the Barbgaunts might be a alternative build for Biovores actually; if you removed the whole back ridge and the gun, you could put a center-line Bio/Pyrovore gun there; the orkish features could be there in an alternative head.
I would love new variants of the Neurogaunts maybe something like Starcraft banelings suicidal bugs but I can work with those push fits too.
Most will probably have multipart variant kits. Either way it's a wait and see game now and still a long way before we see any form of independent multipart kits revealed.
By then if you dont get multiparts just head to Ebay and get Nid push fit half.
As for biovores they are kind of bulkier in design ( and hopefully not awful like the other versions, this poor fella is almost like a running joke XD)
Avert your eyes children, Grinny McRhino-Horn has returned!
Ok, not really, but you have full warning that this article on the Screamer Killer includes a full, uncensored picture of the God-awful 3rd Ed attempt at a Carnifex.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Avert your eyes children, Grinny McRhino-Horn has returned!
Ok, not really, but you have full warning that this article on the Screamer Killer includes a full, uncensored picture of the God-awful 3rd Ed attempt at a Carnifex.
I actually like the 'beetle biped' more than the current 'hunchy the indistinct blob.' The problems with model were sculpting limitations of the time and materials (ugh, hybrid plastic/metal).
I do appreciate that the new SK skips all that and looks like an adult version of the original children's toy.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Avert your eyes children, Grinny McRhino-Horn has returned!
Ok, not really, but you have full warning that this article on the Screamer Killer includes a full, uncensored picture of the God-awful 3rd Ed attempt at a Carnifex.
I wouldn’t say no to a Made to Order for the old old Screamer Killer. But somehow, I doubt that’ll ever happen due to how old any existing mould would be.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Avert your eyes children, Grinny McRhino-Horn has returned!
Ok, not really, but you have full warning that this article on the Screamer Killer includes a full, uncensored picture of the God-awful 3rd Ed attempt at a Carnifex.
I wouldn’t say no to a Made to Order for the old old Screamer Killer. But somehow, I doubt that’ll ever happen due to how old any existing mould would be.
There's a few old models I wouldn't mind in fresh metal - Screamer Killer, old Zoanthrope, Pyrovore (yeah I like it in metal but as its gone to finecast that's gone and not enough people bought them in metal to have a decent 2nd hand price)
They have dome some real old lead before, so it’s not out of the realm of possibility.
If you do want to base one for modern use, might good to have him up on a destroyed rhino or something. I suspect he’s like half the hight of the new guy.
Nevelon wrote: They have dome some real old lead before, so it’s not out of the realm of possibility.
If you do want to base one for modern use, might good to have him up on a destroyed rhino or something. I suspect he’s like half the hight of the new guy.
Overread wrote: Pyrovore (yeah I like it in metal but as its gone to finecast that's gone and not enough people bought them in metal to have a decent 2nd hand price)
Ugh, tell me about it. I have 2 and want a full 3. Kept putting off the one sitting in a FLGS for too long and it got bought and now I have to deal with sifting through listings hoping for a not-terribly priced metal.
It was a legit great sculpt that was oddly placed for its game stats (huge long range style weapon --- and its a close combat flamer); and then suffered just having poor stats for ages so no one wanted them.
That and I held off for so long because they went to finecast and then I kept thinking "Ok so this next time its a new codex GW are sure to replace one of our only 2 or 3 finecast mainline models with plastics....
Here I'm still rocking my 2nd and 3rd edition Carnifexes Can't wait to see how small they look compared to the new Screamer, I did some converting on some to make them taller, but they'll never reach the stature of the new one I'm afraid!
Skywave wrote: Here I'm still rocking my 2nd and 3rd edition Carnifexes Can't wait to see how small they look compared to the new Screamer, I did some converting on some to make them taller, but they'll never reach the stature of the new one I'm afraid!
I want to see a conversion of two old screamer killer models in a trenchcoat, one standing on the others back
H.B.M.C. wrote: Avert your eyes children, Grinny McRhino-Horn has returned!
Ok, not really, but you have full warning that this article on the Screamer Killer includes a full, uncensored picture of the God-awful 3rd Ed attempt at a Carnifex.
I wouldn’t say no to a Made to Order for the old old Screamer Killer. But somehow, I doubt that’ll ever happen due to how old any existing mould would be.
Wouldn't they have to make new molds for made to order runs anyway? I can't imagine that even if for some reason they had rubber molds sitting around for twenty, twenty five years, that they wouldn't go brittle and become useless in that time.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Avert your eyes children, Grinny McRhino-Horn has returned!
Ok, not really, but you have full warning that this article on the Screamer Killer includes a full, uncensored picture of the God-awful 3rd Ed attempt at a Carnifex.
I wouldn’t say no to a Made to Order for the old old Screamer Killer. But somehow, I doubt that’ll ever happen due to how old any existing mould would be.
Wouldn't they have to make new molds for made to order runs anyway? I can't imagine that even if for some reason they had rubber molds sitting around for twenty, twenty five years, that they wouldn't go brittle and become useless in that time.
IIRC their metal stuff is mostly old enough to be made in the master-mould process, where you have said master mould, from which you cast a master, which you use in turn to cast production molds that you use and eventually throw away. For archival purposes, you can either store just the master mould (if you want to be able to do practically unlimited amounts of something) or several masters if you don't expect to ever produce large numbers of that model again, as each master allows you to create several production moulds until it wears out.
Daemons article up, mentions that Carnifexes will/could have extra attack weapons (as in, can fight with a primary weapon profile plus whatever profile(s) have extra attack attribute). Might make carnies reasonably dangerous in melee.
Strangely enough, despite Shadows in the Warp in lore being some sort of muffling in the warp and causing problems for psykers and warp entities, it could actually potentially work to empower Chaos Daemons through Daemonic Manifestation where if they pass (with a +1 bonus) a battleshock test from Shadows in the Warp, each unit will regain D3 wounds/models.
Tyran wrote: Will need to be careful when to use Shadows against Daemons. On the other hand synapse will mitigate their faction rule.
And lore wise Tyranids and Daemons are kinda annoyed when they have to deal with the other as it is such a weird match-up for both in the lore.
Be interesting to see how new style codices handle things like subfactions and hive fleets in particular; since there’s a Fleet dedicated to eating daemons, maybe they will have a rule that partially counters or subverts the shadow of chaos?
Tyran wrote: Will need to be careful when to use Shadows against Daemons. On the other hand synapse will mitigate their faction rule.
And lore wise Tyranids and Daemons are kinda annoyed when they have to deal with the other as it is such a weird match-up for both in the lore.
Be interesting to see how new style codices handle things like subfactions and hive fleets in particular; since there’s a Fleet dedicated to eating daemons, maybe they will have a rule that partially counters or subverts the shadow of chaos?
I hope not. Anti-[FACTION] rules are a balance nightmare.
It'd be cool to include as a narrative element, but not as matched play.
Tyran wrote: Will need to be careful when to use Shadows against Daemons. On the other hand synapse will mitigate their faction rule.
And lore wise Tyranids and Daemons are kinda annoyed when they have to deal with the other as it is such a weird match-up for both in the lore.
Be interesting to see how new style codices handle things like subfactions and hive fleets in particular; since there’s a Fleet dedicated to eating daemons, maybe they will have a rule that partially counters or subverts the shadow of chaos?
I hope not. Anti-[FACTION] rules are a balance nightmare.
It'd be cool to include as a narrative element, but not as matched play.
I’m not saying a specific counter, just a general rule that might happen to be pretty good vs daemons, like penalties to enemy battle shock within X of synapse creatures or something.
Tyran wrote: Will need to be careful when to use Shadows against Daemons. On the other hand synapse will mitigate their faction rule.
And lore wise Tyranids and Daemons are kinda annoyed when they have to deal with the other as it is such a weird match-up for both in the lore.
Be interesting to see how new style codices handle things like subfactions and hive fleets in particular; since there’s a Fleet dedicated to eating daemons, maybe they will have a rule that partially counters or subverts the shadow of chaos?
I hope not. Anti-[FACTION] rules are a balance nightmare.
It'd be cool to include as a narrative element, but not as matched play.
I’m not saying a specific counter, just a general rule that might happen to be pretty good vs daemons, like penalties to enemy battle shock within X of synapse creatures or something.
Rules-wise, neither of these blow me away. Maybe Neurogants will have some sort of application but the Barbgant doesn't seem like it will have any good targets. Mobs of Boyz, if they're good? Just feels pretty niche.
Also, "bio-cannon" is a terrible name, given that it's been used as a catch all for heavy tyranid munitions forever. That's not confusing in the least...
Tyran wrote: Most melee units are going to feel having -2 to movement, -2 to advance rolls and -2 to charge.
I mean those WE units that can advance and charge? they basically get a -6"
On the one hand, they can't charge T1 regardless. Unless Deployment Zones are closer than 24" together.
On the other hand, 4+(1d6-2, min 0?) is only 7 inches on average. If you can hit 'em two turns in a row, they'd be looking at a charge range of...
8+(1d6-2, min 0)*2+(2d6-2) which is only 19" on average, and caps at 26" if you roll four sixes in a row.
Tyran wrote: Most melee units are going to feel having -2 to movement, -2 to advance rolls and -2 to charge.
I mean those WE units that can advance and charge? they basically get a -6"
On the one hand, they can't charge T1 regardless. Unless Deployment Zones are closer than 24" together.
On the other hand, 4+(1d6-2, min 0?) is only 7 inches on average. If you can hit 'em two turns in a row, they'd be looking at a charge range of...
8+(1d6-2, min 0)*2+(2d6-2) which is only 19" on average, and caps at 26" if you roll four sixes in a row.
I like them.
They'll probably be psychologically valuable once you managed to make an enemy charge fail by firing them on overwatch once Not gonna happen with any regularity, but that one time will probably stick in people's mind.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: Rules-wise, neither of these blow me away. Maybe Neurogants will have some sort of application but the Barbgant doesn't seem like it will have any good targets. Mobs of Boyz, if they're good? Just feels pretty niche.
Also, "bio-cannon" is a terrible name, given that it's been used as a catch all for heavy tyranid munitions forever. That's not confusing in the least...
Wider picture. A squad if just 5 Barbgaunts can kick out a lot of shots. The S5 is enough to reliably worry lighter infantry, and potentially spam enough wounds to tempt the Dice Gods against better armoured infantry.
But as said, just having to hit an enemy unit to slow it down has utility unto itself. Especially (and I think this is yet to be confirmed) if you can still split fire, as they can bog down a number of units each turn.
Given what we’ve seen so far strongly suggests Objectives are key to 10th (not just VPs, but objective related unit boosts), being able to slow the enemy for such little effort is pretty sweet.
The way I see it both these units are moves to not so much change what the whole army can do, but rather change what a gaunt swarm army can do.
With synapse boosting and a more powerful ranged weapon this means you could go with a very strong gaunt swarm army and be effective on the table. At least without splicing in enough big bugs that it stops feeling like a swarm and feels more like just a regular army.
This might also be in response to if GW is cutting down unit sizes a bit so you're no longer going to end up with 200+gaunts on the table plus dozens of other big things in a gaunt force.
I think they are neat addition; new options for mixed armies and an increased ability to create a very swarmy gaunt army
In other news, i finally remembered what the Barbgaunt's silhouette reminded me of, at least subconsciously: one of the medium-stage infected from the Sedition Wars boardgame.
Those are some poor's man Heavy Bolters on the Barbgaunts (as other have said, the decision to use "Bio-cannon" as a gun name is quite lame), but the utility they bring is kinda huge!
Targeting multiple units will be fun, and melee unit will hate them for sure, Death Guards will be slow to cross the board for sure.
I like them so far!
The Neurogaunts wi-fi extender ability is also pretty useful. Synapse range itself isn't that great so they'll still be pretty clustered, but we'll see if they are cheap enough to have those over a cheap unit of Warriors.
Skywave wrote: ... the decision to use "Bio-cannon" as a gun name is quite lame...
"Simple, not interesting."
Skywave wrote: The Neurogaunts wi-fi extender ability is also pretty useful. Synapse range itself isn't that great so they'll still be pretty clustered, but we'll see if they are cheap enough to have those over a cheap unit of Warriors.
After that article I've kind of fallen in love with the dopey little things.
I was going to forget about them, paint their weird "armour" bits up silver and stick various random leftover bits from AdMech kits to make 'em some Dark Mechanicus bio-experiment gone wrong, but given their role in a 'Nid army, I think I'll keep 'em.
Tyran wrote: Most melee units are going to feel having -2 to movement, -2 to advance rolls and -2 to charge.
I mean those WE units that can advance and charge? they basically get a -6"
On the one hand, they can't charge T1 regardless. Unless Deployment Zones are closer than 24" together.
On the other hand, 4+(1d6-2, min 0?) is only 7 inches on average. If you can hit 'em two turns in a row, they'd be looking at a charge range of...
8+(1d6-2, min 0)*2+(2d6-2) which is only 19" on average, and caps at 26" if you roll four sixes in a row.
I like them.
They'll probably be psychologically valuable once you managed to make an enemy charge fail by firing them on overwatch once Not gonna happen with any regularity, but that one time will probably stick in people's mind.
Two things.
A) 5d6 averages 18 shots. 1 hit very likely
B) slowdown happens in YOUR shooting phase. See a problem with your idea?
Tyran wrote: Most melee units are going to feel having -2 to movement, -2 to advance rolls and -2 to charge.
I mean those WE units that can advance and charge? they basically get a -6"
On the one hand, they can't charge T1 regardless. Unless Deployment Zones are closer than 24" together.
On the other hand, 4+(1d6-2, min 0?) is only 7 inches on average. If you can hit 'em two turns in a row, they'd be looking at a charge range of...
8+(1d6-2, min 0)*2+(2d6-2) which is only 19" on average, and caps at 26" if you roll four sixes in a row.
I like them.
They'll probably be psychologically valuable once you managed to make an enemy charge fail by firing them on overwatch once Not gonna happen with any regularity, but that one time will probably stick in people's mind.
Two things.
A) 5d6 averages 18 shots. 1 hit very likely
B) slowdown happens in YOUR shooting phase. See a problem with your idea?
Ah well, that's dumb wording then... makes no sense to restrict it to your own shooting phase, but what can you do.
Tyran wrote: Most melee units are going to feel having -2 to movement, -2 to advance rolls and -2 to charge.
I mean those WE units that can advance and charge? they basically get a -6"
On the one hand, they can't charge T1 regardless. Unless Deployment Zones are closer than 24" together.
On the other hand, 4+(1d6-2, min 0?) is only 7 inches on average. If you can hit 'em two turns in a row, they'd be looking at a charge range of...
8+(1d6-2, min 0)*2+(2d6-2) which is only 19" on average, and caps at 26" if you roll four sixes in a row.
I like them.
They'll probably be psychologically valuable once you managed to make an enemy charge fail by firing them on overwatch once Not gonna happen with any regularity, but that one time will probably stick in people's mind.
Two things.
A) 5d6 averages 18 shots. 1 hit very likely
B) slowdown happens in YOUR shooting phase. See a problem with your idea?
Ah well, that's dumb wording then... makes no sense to restrict it to your own shooting phase, but what can you do.
Depends on overwatch, if its worded to be "as if it were the units shooting phase" then it would still work.
Tyran wrote: Most melee units are going to feel having -2 to movement, -2 to advance rolls and -2 to charge.
I mean those WE units that can advance and charge? they basically get a -6"
On the one hand, they can't charge T1 regardless. Unless Deployment Zones are closer than 24" together.
On the other hand, 4+(1d6-2, min 0?) is only 7 inches on average. If you can hit 'em two turns in a row, they'd be looking at a charge range of...
8+(1d6-2, min 0)*2+(2d6-2) which is only 19" on average, and caps at 26" if you roll four sixes in a row.
I like them.
They'll probably be psychologically valuable once you managed to make an enemy charge fail by firing them on overwatch once Not gonna happen with any regularity, but that one time will probably stick in people's mind.
Two things.
A) 5d6 averages 18 shots. 1 hit very likely
B) slowdown happens in YOUR shooting phase. See a problem with your idea?
Ah well, that's dumb wording then... makes no sense to restrict it to your own shooting phase, but what can you do.
Depends on overwatch, if its worded to be "as if it were the units shooting phase" then it would still work.
I don't think so, as the ability is explicitly worded 'In your shooting phase...' and technically is an unit ability, not a weapon ability, and thus would not trigger on firing out of turn. Practically, firing the weapon has in itself nothing to do with the ability, the ability triggers in your shooting phase and checks if you have shot. Makes no sense, but that's how it is written.
This leads to the delightfully absurd situation that your 'Disrupting' weapon only disrupts when you fire it nicely in turn, and not when you are actually trying to disrupt an advancing/attacking enemy.
Tyran wrote: Most melee units are going to feel having -2 to movement, -2 to advance rolls and -2 to charge.
I mean those WE units that can advance and charge? they basically get a -6"
On the one hand, they can't charge T1 regardless. Unless Deployment Zones are closer than 24" together. On the other hand, 4+(1d6-2, min 0?) is only 7 inches on average. If you can hit 'em two turns in a row, they'd be looking at a charge range of...
8+(1d6-2, min 0)*2+(2d6-2) which is only 19" on average, and caps at 26" if you roll four sixes in a row.
I like them.
They'll probably be psychologically valuable once you managed to make an enemy charge fail by firing them on overwatch once Not gonna happen with any regularity, but that one time will probably stick in people's mind.
Two things.
A) 5d6 averages 18 shots. 1 hit very likely B) slowdown happens in YOUR shooting phase. See a problem with your idea?
Ah well, that's dumb wording then... makes no sense to restrict it to your own shooting phase, but what can you do.
Depends on overwatch, if its worded to be "as if it were the units shooting phase" then it would still work.
I don't think so, as the ability is explicitly worded 'In your shooting phase...' and technically is an unit ability, not a weapon ability, and thus would not trigger on firing out of turn. Practically, firing the weapon has in itself nothing to do with the ability, the ability triggers in your shooting phase and checks if you have shot. Makes no sense, but that's how it is written.
This leads to the delightfully absurd situation that your 'Disrupting' weapon only disrupts when you fire it nicely in turn, and not when you are actually trying to disrupt an advancing/attacking enemy.
The Screamer-Killer's Death Scream ability has similar wording, "In your shooting phase, after this model has shot..." for forcing battle shock tests. I wonder how many other cases there will be and if this is something addressed in overwatch/out-of-phase actions rules?
This got me thinking about the Screamer-Killer forcing a battleshock test, can a unit take a battleshock test when it's already battleshocked? What happens if it fails? Is it doubley battleshocked? And what happens if it passes - does it immediately rally?!
Tyran wrote: Most melee units are going to feel having -2 to movement, -2 to advance rolls and -2 to charge.
I mean those WE units that can advance and charge? they basically get a -6"
On the one hand, they can't charge T1 regardless. Unless Deployment Zones are closer than 24" together.
On the other hand, 4+(1d6-2, min 0?) is only 7 inches on average. If you can hit 'em two turns in a row, they'd be looking at a charge range of...
8+(1d6-2, min 0)*2+(2d6-2) which is only 19" on average, and caps at 26" if you roll four sixes in a row.
I like them.
They'll probably be psychologically valuable once you managed to make an enemy charge fail by firing them on overwatch once Not gonna happen with any regularity, but that one time will probably stick in people's mind.
Two things.
A) 5d6 averages 18 shots. 1 hit very likely
B) slowdown happens in YOUR shooting phase. See a problem with your idea?
Ah well, that's dumb wording then... makes no sense to restrict it to your own shooting phase, but what can you do.
Depends on overwatch, if its worded to be "as if it were the units shooting phase" then it would still work.
I don't think so, as the ability is explicitly worded 'In your shooting phase...' and technically is an unit ability, not a weapon ability, and thus would not trigger on firing out of turn. Practically, firing the weapon has in itself nothing to do with the ability, the ability triggers in your shooting phase and checks if you have shot. Makes no sense, but that's how it is written.
This leads to the delightfully absurd situation that your 'Disrupting' weapon only disrupts when you fire it nicely in turn, and not when you are actually trying to disrupt an advancing/attacking enemy.
The Screamer-Killer's Death Scream ability has similar wording, "In your shooting phase, after this model has shot..." for forcing battle shock tests. I wonder how many other cases there will be and if this is something addressed in overwatch/out-of-phase actions rules?
This got me thinking about the Screamer-Killer forcing a battleshock test, can a unit take a battleshock test when it's already battleshocked? What happens if it fails? Is it doubley battleshocked? And what happens if it passes - does it immediately rally?!
These are actually good questions - my gut feeling is that 'rally' checks are something different from Battleshock test, i.e. passing a second Battleshock test during the turn does not rally your unit. As to what failing additional checks does: no idea, we haven't been told yet. Could be that you lose models if you fail test after test, as your soldiers break down into incoherence or run away, but again, we have not been told yet.
As you say, we just don't know, but I suspect that you can't take a battleshock test when already battleshocked, and I doubt there is a rally test.
We know that if you become battleshocked it lasts until "the start of your next Command Phase", so units are neatly no longer battle shocked by the time they have to test in the Command Phase itself when you test for each unit below half-strength.
But it would be nice to know for certain how it works.
It might be that they've thought ahead for once on some of these interactions and we're not supposed to be able to force charge failures using overwatch etc like that, but it's another "need more info" situation all round.
I must say I expected the neurogaunts to have some kind of bodyguard type rule for the big synapse creatures based on things previously said in other articles. Slightly disappointed if what's been revealed is all they have/do.
Tyran wrote: Most melee units are going to feel having -2 to movement, -2 to advance rolls and -2 to charge.
I mean those WE units that can advance and charge? they basically get a -6"
On the one hand, they can't charge T1 regardless. Unless Deployment Zones are closer than 24" together.
On the other hand, 4+(1d6-2, min 0?) is only 7 inches on average. If you can hit 'em two turns in a row, they'd be looking at a charge range of...
8+(1d6-2, min 0)*2+(2d6-2) which is only 19" on average, and caps at 26" if you roll four sixes in a row.
I like them.
They'll probably be psychologically valuable once you managed to make an enemy charge fail by firing them on overwatch once Not gonna happen with any regularity, but that one time will probably stick in people's mind.
Two things.
A) 5d6 averages 18 shots. 1 hit very likely
B) slowdown happens in YOUR shooting phase. See a problem with your idea?
Ah well, that's dumb wording then... makes no sense to restrict it to your own shooting phase, but what can you do.
Depends on overwatch, if its worded to be "as if it were the units shooting phase" then it would still work.
I don't think so, as the ability is explicitly worded 'In your shooting phase...' and technically is an unit ability, not a weapon ability, and thus would not trigger on firing out of turn. Practically, firing the weapon has in itself nothing to do with the ability, the ability triggers in your shooting phase and checks if you have shot. Makes no sense, but that's how it is written.
This leads to the delightfully absurd situation that your 'Disrupting' weapon only disrupts when you fire it nicely in turn, and not when you are actually trying to disrupt an advancing/attacking enemy.
The Screamer-Killer's Death Scream ability has similar wording, "In your shooting phase, after this model has shot..." for forcing battle shock tests. I wonder how many other cases there will be and if this is something addressed in overwatch/out-of-phase actions rules?
This got me thinking about the Screamer-Killer forcing a battleshock test, can a unit take a battleshock test when it's already battleshocked? What happens if it fails? Is it doubley battleshocked? And what happens if it passes - does it immediately rally?!
These are actually good questions - my gut feeling is that 'rally' checks are something different from Battleshock test, i.e. passing a second Battleshock test during the turn does not rally your unit. As to what failing additional checks does: no idea, we haven't been told yet. Could be that you lose models if you fail test after test, as your soldiers break down into incoherence or run away, but again, we have not been told yet.
rally checks don't exist. Battleshock, from its wording, is a status that simply goes away at the start of your command phase. If the unit is below half strength, they then need to check for battleshock again. For getting it again from other sources, it does nothing. There's nothing for 'multiple battleshocks' to do.
Tyran wrote: Most melee units are going to feel having -2 to movement, -2 to advance rolls and -2 to charge.
I mean those WE units that can advance and charge? they basically get a -6"
On the one hand, they can't charge T1 regardless. Unless Deployment Zones are closer than 24" together. On the other hand, 4+(1d6-2, min 0?) is only 7 inches on average. If you can hit 'em two turns in a row, they'd be looking at a charge range of...
8+(1d6-2, min 0)*2+(2d6-2) which is only 19" on average, and caps at 26" if you roll four sixes in a row.
I like them.
They'll probably be psychologically valuable once you managed to make an enemy charge fail by firing them on overwatch once Not gonna happen with any regularity, but that one time will probably stick in people's mind.
Two things.
A) 5d6 averages 18 shots. 1 hit very likely B) slowdown happens in YOUR shooting phase. See a problem with your idea?
Ah well, that's dumb wording then... makes no sense to restrict it to your own shooting phase, but what can you do.
Depends on overwatch, if its worded to be "as if it were the units shooting phase" then it would still work.
I don't think so, as the ability is explicitly worded 'In your shooting phase...' and technically is an unit ability, not a weapon ability, and thus would not trigger on firing out of turn. Practically, firing the weapon has in itself nothing to do with the ability, the ability triggers in your shooting phase and checks if you have shot. Makes no sense, but that's how it is written.
This leads to the delightfully absurd situation that your 'Disrupting' weapon only disrupts when you fire it nicely in turn, and not when you are actually trying to disrupt an advancing/attacking enemy.
The Screamer-Killer's Death Scream ability has similar wording, "In your shooting phase, after this model has shot..." for forcing battle shock tests. I wonder how many other cases there will be and if this is something addressed in overwatch/out-of-phase actions rules?
This got me thinking about the Screamer-Killer forcing a battleshock test, can a unit take a battleshock test when it's already battleshocked? What happens if it fails? Is it doubley battleshocked? And what happens if it passes - does it immediately rally?!
These are actually good questions - my gut feeling is that 'rally' checks are something different from Battleshock test, i.e. passing a second Battleshock test during the turn does not rally your unit. As to what failing additional checks does: no idea, we haven't been told yet. Could be that you lose models if you fail test after test, as your soldiers break down into incoherence or run away, but again, we have not been told yet.
rally checks don't exist. Battleshock, from its wording, is a status that simply goes away at the start of your command phase. If the unit is below half strength, they then need to check for battleshock again. For getting it again from other sources, it does nothing. There's nothing for 'multiple battleshocks' to do.
But the question remains, if there is nothing in the rules prohibiting a unit taking a battleshock test while it is already battleshocked, and it passes that test, does it rally or is it still battleshocked until its next Command Phase? Still, this is idle speculation and most likely will be a non-issue, but until we have the full rules I can't help but speculate.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: On a related note, have we seen anything which might suggest “one battleshock test per unit per phase”?
Only with the Screamer Killer, we’re already seeing the potential for multiple tests.
And not to forget, the Space Marine flamer squad can also cause a battle-shock test in their shooting phase:
Skywave wrote: ... the decision to use "Bio-cannon" as a gun name is quite lame...
"Simple, not interesting."
Skywave wrote: The Neurogaunts wi-fi extender ability is also pretty useful. Synapse range itself isn't that great so they'll still be pretty clustered, but we'll see if they are cheap enough to have those over a cheap unit of Warriors.
After that article I've kind of fallen in love with the dopey little things.
I was going to forget about them, paint their weird "armour" bits up silver and stick various random leftover bits from AdMech kits to make 'em some Dark Mechanicus bio-experiment gone wrong, but given their role in a 'Nid army, I think I'll keep 'em.
I'm just here for the new nodels, and happy we got anything new at all! Rules might be meh, but that's a secondary concern. Now, adding Ad Mech bit and some silver paint on some parts might make some awesome models! Would fit right in with that fully mechanized Nids army I see on the web, the one that looks like Cults vehicles/contraptions!
Necronmaniac05 wrote: I must say I expected the neurogaunts to have some kind of bodyguard type rule for the big synapse creatures based on things previously said in other articles. Slightly disappointed if what's been revealed is all they have/do.
We have yet to see their full datasheet. Maybe there is some bodyguard rule or some keyword that works like that combined with synapse creatures?
I wonder why they choose the contents for both Nids and SM Combat Patrols to be made of the minis included in the Leviathan box? Would the market not be flooded with the cheap halfs of both sides? Unless, there will never be enough Leviathan boxes to meet the demand, and they know people will want shiny new anyway?
Shadow Walker wrote: I wonder why they choose the contents for both Nids and SM Combat Patrols to be made of the minis included in the Leviathan box? Would the market not be flooded with the cheap halfs of both sides? Unless, there will never be enough Leviathan boxes to meet the demand, and they know people will want shiny new anyway?
Standardisation and making the most of sprues which won’t be released in another format is my guess.
Shadow Walker wrote: I wonder why they choose the contents for both Nids and SM Combat Patrols to be made of the minis included in the Leviathan box? Would the market not be flooded with the cheap halfs of both sides? Unless, there will never be enough Leviathan boxes to meet the demand, and they know people will want shiny new anyway?
Standardisation and making the most of sprues which won’t be released in another format is my guess.
Possible, but I think that Termas, and probably Prime are rather likely to have different format. Former having more weapons on their datasheet, and latter being a character/leader, and also a Warrior genus which means options.
Shadow Walker wrote: I wonder why they choose the contents for both Nids and SM Combat Patrols to be made of the minis included in the Leviathan box? Would the market not be flooded with the cheap halfs of both sides? Unless, there will never be enough Leviathan boxes to meet the demand, and they know people will want shiny new anyway?
They'll do what they did with Indomitus. Most of the launch box will be in the core boxes (in varying amounts), and they'll sell the remaining sprue(s) from Leviathan at $100+ a pop as direct only products. So to get everything from Leviathan outside Leviathan, it'll cost something like 150-175% of the cost of the launch box. (plus some extra costs from the duplication between the different levels of core boxes)
I'm not sure there will be explicit combat patrol boxes as such, just a list of models from the launch and core boxes that you can use as a combat patrol. (If they said otherwise, I missed it).
Shadow Walker wrote: I wonder why they choose the contents for both Nids and SM Combat Patrols to be made of the minis included in the Leviathan box? Would the market not be flooded with the cheap halfs of both sides? Unless, there will never be enough Leviathan boxes to meet the demand, and they know people will want shiny new anyway?
They'll do what they did with Indomitus. Most of the launch box will be in the core boxes (in varying amounts), and they'll sell the remaining sprue(s) from Leviathan at $100+ a pop as direct only products. So to get everything from Leviathan outside Leviathan, it'll cost something like 150-175% of the cost of the launch box. (plus some extra costs from the duplication between the different levels of core boxes)
I'm not sure there will be explicit combat patrol boxes as such, just a list of models from the launch and core boxes that you can use as a combat patrol. (If they said otherwise, I missed it).
They did confirm that the aforementioned nid units formed a combat patrol, which is a sales item in reality until now, so no reason to assume they won't sell it individually.
Shadow Walker wrote: I wonder why they choose the contents for both Nids and SM Combat Patrols to be made of the minis included in the Leviathan box? Would the market not be flooded with the cheap halfs of both sides? Unless, there will never be enough Leviathan boxes to meet the demand, and they know people will want shiny new anyway?
They'll do what they did with Indomitus. Most of the launch box will be in the core boxes (in varying amounts), and they'll sell the remaining sprue(s) from Leviathan at $100+ a pop as direct only products. So to get everything from Leviathan outside Leviathan, it'll cost something like 150-175% of the cost of the launch box. (plus some extra costs from the duplication between the different levels of core boxes)
I'm not sure there will be explicit combat patrol boxes as such, just a list of models from the launch and core boxes that you can use as a combat patrol. (If they said otherwise, I missed it).
They did confirm that the aforementioned nid units formed a combat patrol, which is a sales item in reality until now, so no reason to assume they won't sell it individually.
Combat Patrol is also a game mode with set army lists in 10th ed, so it's no longer a term exclusively referring to the box with models.
I, too, may have missed word from GW about actual Combat Patrol boxes made from the Leviathan model, of course. The way they showed it at Warhammer Fest I got the impression that it was just going to be rules for Combat Patrol game mode for people who buy Leviathan.
Shadow Walker wrote: I wonder why they choose the contents for both Nids and SM Combat Patrols to be made of the minis included in the Leviathan box? Would the market not be flooded with the cheap halfs of both sides? Unless, there will never be enough Leviathan boxes to meet the demand, and they know people will want shiny new anyway?
They'll do what they did with Indomitus. Most of the launch box will be in the core boxes (in varying amounts), and they'll sell the remaining sprue(s) from Leviathan at $100+ a pop as direct only products. So to get everything from Leviathan outside Leviathan, it'll cost something like 150-175% of the cost of the launch box. (plus some extra costs from the duplication between the different levels of core boxes)
I'm not sure there will be explicit combat patrol boxes as such, just a list of models from the launch and core boxes that you can use as a combat patrol. (If they said otherwise, I missed it).
They did confirm that the aforementioned nid units formed a combat patrol, which is a sales item in reality until now, so no reason to assume they won't sell it individually.
Combat Patrol is also a game mode with set army lists in 10th ed, so it's no longer a term exclusively referring to the box with models.
I, too, may have missed word from GW about actual Combat Patrol boxes made from the Leviathan model, of course. The way they showed it at Warhammer Fest I got the impression that it was just going to be rules for Combat Patrol game mode for people who buy Leviathan.
And based on the few shots of the sprues we got back then it seems like barbgaunts and neurogaunts are on the same sprue but only one of them is shown in the image which is another indication for them just meaning buildable from the Leviathan box for the CP mode instead of an actual CP box
Shadow Walker wrote: I wonder why they choose the contents for both Nids and SM Combat Patrols to be made of the minis included in the Leviathan box? Would the market not be flooded with the cheap halfs of both sides? Unless, there will never be enough Leviathan boxes to meet the demand, and they know people will want shiny new anyway?
They'll do what they did with Indomitus. Most of the launch box will be in the core boxes (in varying amounts), and they'll sell the remaining sprue(s) from Leviathan at $100+ a pop as direct only products. So to get everything from Leviathan outside Leviathan, it'll cost something like 150-175% of the cost of the launch box. (plus some extra costs from the duplication between the different levels of core boxes)
I'm not sure there will be explicit combat patrol boxes as such, just a list of models from the launch and core boxes that you can use as a combat patrol. (If they said otherwise, I missed it).
They did confirm that the aforementioned nid units formed a combat patrol, which is a sales item in reality until now, so no reason to assume they won't sell it individually.
Combat Patrol is also a game mode with set army lists in 10th ed, so it's no longer a term exclusively referring to the box with models.
I, too, may have missed word from GW about actual Combat Patrol boxes made from the Leviathan model, of course. The way they showed it at Warhammer Fest I got the impression that it was just going to be rules for Combat Patrol game mode for people who buy Leviathan.
And based on the few shots of the sprues we got back then it seems like barbgaunts and neurogaunts are on the same sprue but only one of them is shown in the image which is another indication for them just meaning buildable from the Leviathan box for the CP mode instead of an actual CP box
Interesting. If there is no dedicated CP box for us, it could point for another box, with different contents, in the future once the Leviathan is out of production.
Interesting. If there is no dedicated CP box for us, it could point for another box, with different contents, in the future once the Leviathan is out of production.
They explicitly said on the WHF stream that this is the dedicated CP box we're getting:
Are the Marines getting the new Redacticus Dreadnought in theirs?
I am very curious about the rules for the big choppy bug. It feels like he’s either doing a lot of work against all that heavy infantry or gives some of the Buffiest Buffs in all of Buffingdom.
Are the Marines getting the new Redacticus Dreadnought in theirs?
I am very curious about the rules for the big choppy bug. It feels like he’s either doing a lot of work against all that heavy infantry or gives some of the Buffiest Buffs in all of Buffingdom.
Marine CP:
Spoiler:
Also interested in the rules for the new bugs. We have the SK, but he was more of a known quantity.
Are the Marines getting the new Redacticus Dreadnought in theirs?
I am very curious about the rules for the big choppy bug. It feels like he’s either doing a lot of work against all that heavy infantry or gives some of the Buffiest Buffs in all of Buffingdom.
From the fluff, it does devour fallen enemies and turns them into some sort of psy-flamer, which gets especially potent if it manages to eat psykers. So not the thing that is most suited for a combat patrol game, as psykers will probably not be extra-abundant in these, but it might get adjusted rules that are a better fit for those games.
Dudeface wrote: As an aside I find it interesting how many people come here to find stuff out that's openly available on the community site.
To be fair, the community site is not the best for archived stuff.
I keep up with it daily, but when I go back to try to find links, it sometimes takes a little efforts to find the right article that actually has the info.
Dudeface wrote: As an aside I find it interesting how many people come here to find stuff out that's openly available on the community site.
To be fair, the community site is not the best for archived stuff.
I keep up with it daily, but when I go back to try to find links, it sometimes takes a little efforts to find the right article that actually has the info.
The community site has horrific search and archive functions, and then a lot of 10th edition stuff is actually shunted of to its own sub-site, or the Warhammer40000.com site, and on top of that almost half of the 10th stuff is hidden in graphics and vignettes that also have no Alt-text, so you're gak outta luck anyways even if you remember what to look for.
I don't begrudge anyone just asking the forums, GWs site literally drives you insane if you're looking for specific stuff that's not shopping-related.
Dudeface wrote: As an aside I find it interesting how many people come here to find stuff out that's openly available on the community site.
Thing is the community site is fine if you check it every single day. Even ignoring the searching tools, the amount of news we get is pretty rapid now, esp with 10th edition marketing speeding up that news a lot. So there's a fair chunk of information turn over each day. If you don't know an article on X has already been posted and its not one of the last 2 or 3 then you might well not know information that's already well known.
But, you could have later gotten the £75 RRP Necron Royal Court for £8.99 RRP in issue 50 of the Imperium magazine run (assuming you beat the scalpers to it).
If I was buying into Tyranids and suffering from advanced stage FOMO-itis I'd be looking at splitting 3 boxes with a Marine player, together selling the 3rd set of books/cards to a non Marine/Nid player. So RRP £450 (3 x 15)) is what we are expecting, try to get it from a 20% discount store down to £360 RRP, sell the books/cards for say £20, then split the price in half, so £170 for 3 of the Tyranid halves plus 1 set of book/cards is a good start to your new army.
Although interestingly for the Necron box set last time around, the Canoptek Reanimator, the Skorpekh Lord, the Plasmancer, the Cryptek Thralls and the Royal Warden were all generally take one or none ofs for the whole edition, but fine for super casual games. The Skorpekhs and Scarabs saw the longest run of being good with the Warriors coming in sort of strong later on.
But I am glad that I have 3 x each of the trash/useless in 9th options as I head towards 10th.
Dudeface wrote: As an aside I find it interesting how many people come here to find stuff out that's openly available on the community site.
To be fair, the community site is not the best for archived stuff.
I keep up with it daily, but when I go back to try to find links, it sometimes takes a little efforts to find the right article that actually has the info.
The community site has horrific search and archive functions, and then a lot of 10th edition stuff is actually shunted of to its own sub-site, or the Warhammer40000.com site, and on top of that almost half of the 10th stuff is hidden in graphics and vignettes that also have no Alt-text, so you're gak outta luck anyways even if you remember what to look for.
I don't begrudge anyone just asking the forums, GWs site literally drives you insane if you're looking for specific stuff that's not shopping-related.
This! I remember looking for X info I knew was posted there few days ago, and being frustrated by finding nothing via search function. I had to check all the articles list, and clicking randomly at titles that looked promising about the topic I was looking to find.
But, you could have later gotten the £75 RRP Necron Royal Court for £8.99 RRP in issue 50 of the Imperium magazine run (assuming you beat the scalpers to it).
If I was buying into Tyranids and suffering from advanced stage FOMO-itis I'd be looking at splitting 3 boxes with a Marine player, together selling the 3rd set of books/cards to a non Marine/Nid player. So RRP £450 (3 x 15)) is what we are expecting, try to get it from a 20% discount store down to £360 RRP, sell the books/cards for say £20, then split the price in half, so £170 for 3 of the Tyranid halves plus 1 set of book/cards is a good start to your new army.
Although interestingly for the Necron box set last time around, the Canoptek Reanimator, the Skorpekh Lord, the Plasmancer, the Cryptek Thralls and the Royal Warden were all generally take one or none ofs for the whole edition, but fine for super casual games. The Skorpekhs and Scarabs saw the longest run of being good with the Warriors coming in sort of strong later on.
But I am glad that I have 3 x each of the trash/useless in 9th options as I head towards 10th.
Just to add to that, Valrak said (some time ago) that people from the magazine/partworks side of things told him there would be something like the Imperium magazine for 10th edition as well, which probably means you can pick up similar discounts eventually.
Dudeface wrote: As an aside I find it interesting how many people come here to find stuff out that's openly available on the community site.
To be fair, the community site is not the best for archived stuff.
I keep up with it daily, but when I go back to try to find links, it sometimes takes a little efforts to find the right article that actually has the info.
For 10th it has all articles collected in 1 page you get to from front page
Dudeface wrote: As an aside I find it interesting how many people come here to find stuff out that's openly available on the community site.
To be fair, the community site is not the best for archived stuff.
I keep up with it daily, but when I go back to try to find links, it sometimes takes a little efforts to find the right article that actually has the info.
For 10th it has all articles collected in 1 page you get to from front page
But not, for example, all the warhammerfest reveals. Which were significant.
That was classic war-com. Write an underwhelming AF article about the new unit. Watch it turn out to have some very potent psychic attack that they just left off. Or maybe it will be the second coming of the Maleceptor, who debuted with some of the worst rules that GW has ever written back in 7th
).
) rather than a general weapon list that tries to cover the whole army.
