I just realized these are basically an updated Death leaper modelwise.
They have the three eyes and also have the talons instead of the more hand like claws of the lictor
Also there was a rumour the Death Leaper was going away so these could be the replacement?
Not sure I how I feel about these. They're mostly nice, but the mandibles make a mess of the face. Also these are prime candidates for holding off on a final verdict until I see 360° pictures.
I mean, we assume those things in the trailer were updated Biovores. What if they're not?
You were also afraid that Termies are gone come with 3 man squads based on the video. I know that GW disappoints more often than not but hey, maybe this time Nids are gonna be on the safe side?
Would be good to get the Finecast models redone in plastic. Hopefully that will happen. But as a Sisters player I won't hold it against anyone for worrying about Lictors, Genestealers and Biovores who have been eternally passed over for plastic treatment. At some point you just won't entertain the possibility anymore until it actually happens.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Let the Leapers be the general interference, and the Lictor go back to being a reliable assassin.
That's what i was thinking, Leapers for infiltrating harassment forces, Lictor with punchy poison (Anti-infantry x+ in the new diction), a brain-eater anti-character ability, very good infiltration and surprise attack and enough general oomph to shred small retinues or scouting patrols solo.
Geifer wrote: Not sure I how I feel about these. They're mostly nice, but the mandibles make a mess of the face. Also these are prime candidates for holding off on a final verdict until I see 360° pictures.
I mean, we assume those things in the trailer were updated Biovores. What if they're not?
You were also afraid that Termies are gone come with 3 man squads based on the video. I know that GW disappoints more often than not but hey, maybe this time Nids are gonna be on the safe side?
Would be good to get the Finecast models redone in plastic. Hopefully that will happen. But as a Sisters player I won't hold it against anyone for worrying about Lictors, Genestealers and Biovores who have been eternally passed over for plastic treatment. At some point you just won't entertain the possibility anymore until it actually happens.
Imagine the outrage when Lictor, Stealers, Vores are left with the resin crap. Not even GW is that stupid, right?
Geifer wrote: Not sure I how I feel about these. They're mostly nice, but the mandibles make a mess of the face. Also these are prime candidates for holding off on a final verdict until I see 360° pictures.
I mean, we assume those things in the trailer were updated Biovores. What if they're not?
You were also afraid that Termies are gone come with 3 man squads based on the video. I know that GW disappoints more often than not but hey, maybe this time Nids are gonna be on the safe side?
Would be good to get the Finecast models redone in plastic. Hopefully that will happen. But as a Sisters player I won't hold it against anyone for worrying about Lictors, Genestealers and Biovores who have been eternally passed over for plastic treatment. At some point you just won't entertain the possibility anymore until it actually happens.
Imagine the outrage when Lictor, Stealers, Vores are left with the resin crap. Not even GW is that stupid, right?
Lictors and Biovores are the last resin kits of the Tyranids right ?
I could see stealers not being updated (as they are in plastic, even though they look horrible) since GW prefer to focus on the resin kits.
Geifer wrote: Not sure I how I feel about these. They're mostly nice, but the mandibles make a mess of the face. Also these are prime candidates for holding off on a final verdict until I see 360° pictures.
I mean, we assume those things in the trailer were updated Biovores. What if they're not?
You were also afraid that Termies are gone come with 3 man squads based on the video. I know that GW disappoints more often than not but hey, maybe this time Nids are gonna be on the safe side?
Would be good to get the Finecast models redone in plastic. Hopefully that will happen. But as a Sisters player I won't hold it against anyone for worrying about Lictors, Genestealers and Biovores who have been eternally passed over for plastic treatment. At some point you just won't entertain the possibility anymore until it actually happens.
Imagine the outrage when Lictor, Stealers, Vores are left with the resin crap. Not even GW is that stupid, right?
Nah, especially not Stealers. They might be legitimately among their most popular non-marine models and are playable in a handful of sidegames and one additional faction in 40k, no way they're not releasing a new stealer box in some way eventually.
Geifer wrote: Not sure I how I feel about these. They're mostly nice, but the mandibles make a mess of the face. Also these are prime candidates for holding off on a final verdict until I see 360° pictures.
I mean, we assume those things in the trailer were updated Biovores. What if they're not?
You were also afraid that Termies are gone come with 3 man squads based on the video. I know that GW disappoints more often than not but hey, maybe this time Nids are gonna be on the safe side?
Would be good to get the Finecast models redone in plastic. Hopefully that will happen. But as a Sisters player I won't hold it against anyone for worrying about Lictors, Genestealers and Biovores who have been eternally passed over for plastic treatment. At some point you just won't entertain the possibility anymore until it actually happens.
Imagine the outrage when Lictor, Stealers, Vores are left with the resin crap. Not even GW is that stupid, right?
Unfortunately GW's track record isn't all that great in that regard. Even if we don't go back too long, Necrons received a ton of models, some quite superfluous, while the Destroyer Lord remained a resin upgrade kit. Most recently, the World Eaters range isn't something that inspires confidence in GW's ability to select what kits should be made for an army.
Genestealers might be excusable if they're held back as a Cults release.
Genestealers might be excusable if they're held back as a Cults release.
Please not unless they get a slew of other stuff alongside. The inevitable new 3 characters and "here's some genestealers we couldn't fit in for the other army" would be another waste of an expansion slot for them.
Unfortunately GW's track record isn't all that great in that regard. Even if we don't go back too long, Necrons received a ton of models, some quite superfluous, while the Destroyer Lord remained a resin upgrade kit. Most recently, the World Eaters range isn't something that inspires confidence in GW's ability to select what kits should be made for an army.
Genestealers might be excusable if they're held back as a Cults release.
There's also background rumours of a new edition of Space Hulk, and Genestealers are also a thing that could easily consitute a box for KillTeam. They could easily slot in anywhere in the release schedule, at any time. That being said, Valrak is firm on new Stealers, and so far he got the box contents bang-on.
Unfortunately GW's track record isn't all that great in that regard. Even if we don't go back too long, Necrons received a ton of models, some quite superfluous, while the Destroyer Lord remained a resin upgrade kit. Most recently, the World Eaters range isn't something that inspires confidence in GW's ability to select what kits should be made for an army.
Genestealers might be excusable if they're held back as a Cults release.
There's also background rumours of a new edition of Space Hulk, and Genestealers are also a thing that could easily consitute a box for KillTeam. They could easily slot in anywhere in the release schedule, at any time. That being said, Valrak is firm on new Stealers, and so far he got the box contents bang-on.
Isn't the space hulk talk just endless reverb over the 10th teasers at this point?
I wonder if its a duel kit with the option to say build 3 and then a lictor. Like how the Neurothrope is part of the Zoanthrope setup. That would work since then GW can keep the lictor as a lone wolf type model but also sell it in sets of 3.
Unfortunately GW's track record isn't all that great in that regard. Even if we don't go back too long, Necrons received a ton of models, some quite superfluous, while the Destroyer Lord remained a resin upgrade kit. Most recently, the World Eaters range isn't something that inspires confidence in GW's ability to select what kits should be made for an army.
Genestealers might be excusable if they're held back as a Cults release.
There's also background rumours of a new edition of Space Hulk, and Genestealers are also a thing that could easily consitute a box for KillTeam. They could easily slot in anywhere in the release schedule, at any time. That being said, Valrak is firm on new Stealers, and so far he got the box contents bang-on.
Isn't the space hulk talk just endless reverb over the 10th teasers at this point?
Probably, but who even knows anymore Iirc the rumours about it started way before the trailer release, but i'm not entirely sure on that. Plus, i think there are literally always rumours about new Space Hulk because people like it so much.
So, Death Leaper' design is repurposed as a lesser Lictor, which means maybe the Lictor will take Death Leaper ' role as the Apex Tyranid assassin.
The mouth is a bit too busy, reminds me of the overdone Haruspex' design : overdone.
Also, i'm noting that they remain very faithful to the tyranid design established in 4th Edition, which is a bit disappointing, i expected an evolution of sorts.
I wonder if its a duel kit with the option to say build 3 and then a lictor. Like how the Neurothrope is part of the Zoanthrope setup. That would work since then GW can keep the lictor as a lone wolf type model but also sell it in sets of 3.
You're on to something, it does make sense to have a dual kit for those.
I wonder if its a duel kit with the option to say build 3 and then a lictor. Like how the Neurothrope is part of the Zoanthrope setup. That would work since then GW can keep the lictor as a lone wolf type model but also sell it in sets of 3.
You're on to something, it does make sense to have a dual kit for those.
Aren't they smaller than a Lictor which is a Warrior sized (being derived from a Warrior genus)?
The lictor itself isn't all that huge by today's standards. The main difference is likely its hind legs and its main long arms and head design. Easily swappable parts with a similar core body segment.
Of course that's if its a duel kit; the other option is that the Lictor is being held in reserve and will be a character model on its own like the Broodlord and soforth. I honestly cannot fathom that GW wouldn't use this opportunity to update the lictor out of finecast.
Genestealers might be excusable if they're held back as a Cults release.
Please not unless they get a slew of other stuff alongside. The inevitable new 3 characters and "here's some genestealers we couldn't fit in for the other army" would be another waste of an expansion slot for them.
I could live with a Genestealer Cults codex that's passed over for a larger model release just fine if instead of the lone character release they get a Genestealer box and an upgrade sprue similar to Black Templars to go with the new Cadians, provided Brood Brothers get proper rules representation in the codex. The miner theme is pretty well covered (we should get the drill back, but you know, GW and terrain kits...). Giving back the militia theme expands the army very reasonably without a need for many new kits. And let's face it, not every codex can get a sizable model release. At least Genestealers are in a good place in that regard, with the aforementioned potential to get (back) some cool stuff with a single kit and rules that are worth a damn.
Then maybe expand with high society models and get a limo in 11th ed.
But yeah, I'm not lobbying for Genestealers to get skipped over again. But at least they have a reasonable alternative release slot if GW decides to be funny about it. Preferably we get a nice, big release wave for Tyranids that modernizes everything. It's just that I don't trust GW to do that.
And….I’m not sure these were mentioned in the “leaks”?
Well, mistaking them for slightly smaller Lictors is a mistake i'd forgive people even if they were well-versed in tyranids
That being said, with them looking and presumably working like lesser Lictors, i'll guess we get a Killteam out of them?
Are they smaller than Lictors? They look like they might just be a dual kit.
I was thinking they were on 40mms and thus in between Gaunts and Warriors in sizing, but based on the comparison to Arco-Flagellants I think they're on 50mm bases and just about Lictor sized.
So right now, my money's on it being a dual-build kit like Zoanthropes/Neurothropes, where you get three Leapers in a box but can build out one as a (bigger, badder) Lictor.
I wonder if its a duel kit with the option to say build 3 and then a lictor. Like how the Neurothrope is part of the Zoanthrope setup. That would work since then GW can keep the lictor as a lone wolf type model but also sell it in sets of 3.
You're on to something, it does make sense to have a dual kit for those.
Aren't they smaller than a Lictor which is a Warrior sized (being derived from a Warrior genus)?
I don't see any dead giveaways that they are any smaller. With a different back carapace, head, lower arms, and maybe tail they would become Lictorfied pretty easily.
My guess would be the kit lets you build 3 Lictors or 3 Leapers, and maybe has the parts for 1 Deathleaper (if DL still exists). But it's kind of weird that they wouldn't advertise the multi-build in today's article.
Genestealers might be excusable if they're held back as a Cults release.
Please not unless they get a slew of other stuff alongside. The inevitable new 3 characters and "here's some genestealers we couldn't fit in for the other army" would be another waste of an expansion slot for them.
I could live with a Genestealer Cults codex that's passed over for a larger model release just fine if instead of the lone character release they get a Genestealer box and an upgrade sprue similar to Black Templars to go with the new Cadians, provided Brood Brothers get proper rules representation in the codex. The miner theme is pretty well covered (we should get the drill back, but you know, GW and terrain kits...). Giving back the militia theme expands the army very reasonably without a need for many new kits. And let's face it, not every codex can get a sizable model release. At least Genestealers are in a good place in that regard, with the aforementioned potential to get (back) some cool stuff with a single kit and rules that are worth a damn.
Then maybe expand with high society models and get a limo in 11th ed.
But yeah, I'm not lobbying for Genestealers to get skipped over again. But at least they have a reasonable alternative release slot if GW decides to be funny about it. Preferably we get a nice, big release wave for Tyranids that modernizes everything. It's just that I don't trust GW to do that.
I think on all accounts there's a whole host of other stuff in the GW range they could appropriate with a conversion pack (ambots, heck most of the necromunda stuff tbh) that would pad them out a little. I'm honestly a little surprised they can't work with nids again, despite understanding the logic behind it.
There's always the potential given the seeming shift towards Armies of Renown/AoS styled force building that GSC will be able to take a few Vanguard Organisms as part of their roster.
My reasoning, personally, for the Brood Brothers kit speculation is that we saw a dedicated Traitor Guardsman kit for Chaos. Most of that stuff could have been a straight-up upgrade frame for the upcoming Cadians--instead they designed a kit based off the previous aesthetic.
I don't see any dead giveaways that they are any smaller. With a different back carapace, head, lower arms, and maybe tail they would become Lictorfied pretty easily.
Well, based on the 10th trailer (when we though they were Lictors), they looked smaller compared to SM (even Primaris) than a Lictor would.
That... hmm. I want to say its the paint job, but some of this just doesn't work. Tentacles and mandibles (which look oversized), the chest/torso looks weird, and hooves look like dedicated stompers, not a leaping thing.
I also suspect a dual-kit with lictors. It seems an utter waste of an opportunity for a plastic update if not.
Von Ryan's Leaper.... that name sounds familiar. Was it a critter in Rogue Trader (like ambulls and catachan devils), or something else?
That... hmm. I want to say its the paint job, but some of this just doesn't work. Tentacles and mandibles (which look oversized), the chest/torso looks weird, and hooves look like dedicated stompers, not a leaping thing.
I also suspect a dual-kit with lictors. It seems an utter waste of an opportunity for a plastic update if not.
Von Ryan's Leaper.... that name sounds familiar. Was it a critter in Rogue Trader (like ambulls and catachan devils), or something else?
It's mentioned in the 3rd and 4th ed nid codex alongside an old card apparently. Been knocking about in the fluff a while.
That... hmm. I want to say its the paint job, but some of this just doesn't work. Tentacles and mandibles (which look oversized), the chest/torso looks weird, and hooves look like dedicated stompers, not a leaping thing.
I also suspect a dual-kit with lictors. It seems an utter waste of an opportunity for a plastic update if not.
Von Ryan's Leaper.... that name sounds familiar. Was it a critter in Rogue Trader (like ambulls and catachan devils), or something else?
It's mentioned in the 3rd and 4th ed nid codex alongside an old card apparently. Been knocking about in the fluff a while.
I think it had either 3rd or 4th edition rules released on the old GW website.
Much as I hope this is a dual kit I get the feeling that these will be a unit of 3 in the launch box (and that everything we see in the run up to Warhammer Fest will be for the launch box). That said if these are pack hunters in units of three and the Lictor is a lone assassin I could see a Lictor as one of the Easy to Build kits.
Lictors will be bigger & bigger base & sold individually. I doubt they’ll make a 3 pack of leapers contain a whole additional sprue (bigger legs & torso) to make a single lictor & leave 2 leapers leftover (whereas they run in packs of 3)… imho
Grzzldgamerps5 wrote: I doubt they’ll make a 3 pack of leapers contain a whole additional sprue (bigger legs & torso) to make a single lictor & leave 2 leapers leftover (whereas they run in packs of 3)… imho
They did exactly that with Zoanthropes. Box of 3, unit size 3-6, build one as a Neurothrope.
The only reason I think Lictors will be related to this kit is just because they are so Lictor-like in their head and talon design, and about Lictor sized as well. It would seem odd to have a not-a-Lictor and a Lictor in completely separate kits.
Grzzldgamerps5 wrote: I doubt they’ll make a 3 pack of leapers contain a whole additional sprue (bigger legs & torso) to make a single lictor & leave 2 leapers leftover (whereas they run in packs of 3)… imho
They did exactly that with Zoanthropes. Box of 3, unit size 3-6, build one as a Neurothrope.
The only reason I think Lictors will be related to this kit is just because they are so Lictor-like in their head and talon design, and about Lictor sized as well. It would seem odd to have a not-a-Lictor and a Lictor in completely separate kits.
Not if you think of it in terms of army construction/lore.
We know Tyranids adapt. Having Warriors adapted to function alongside of Vanguard creatures would be an interesting bit.
Grzzldgamerps5 wrote: I doubt they’ll make a 3 pack of leapers contain a whole additional sprue (bigger legs & torso) to make a single lictor & leave 2 leapers leftover (whereas they run in packs of 3)… imho
They did exactly that with Zoanthropes. Box of 3, unit size 3-6, build one as a Neurothrope.
The only reason I think Lictors will be related to this kit is just because they are so Lictor-like in their head and talon design, and about Lictor sized as well. It would seem odd to have a not-a-Lictor and a Lictor in completely separate kits.
Looking at pics again, you might be right. The spiked head one might discern it as either a lone lictor or the leader of the leaper pack….
Yeah and I think the mechanics of plastic and having them protruding on their own not just nestled close to the tentacles means that they are a bit thicker than one might expect to see them in reality.
Not going to bother dissecting in detail how disappointing this kit is.
I'm afraid to confirm that my concerns with the images on the video would translate into something just like what was revealed today.
Seen much better fan conversions on this type of Nid which is revealing on how poor this official sculpt turned out to be. It's not a scary menacing creature at all, it's a bubble head, messy, fat creature.
NAVARRO wrote: Not going to bother dissecting in detail how disappointing this kit is.
I'm afraid to confirm that my concerns with the images on the video would translate into something just like what was revealed today.
Seen much better fan conversions on this type of Nid which is revealing on how poor this official sculpt turned out to be. It's not a scary menacing creature at all, it's a bubble head, messy, fat creature.
2nd kit revealed and its an easy pass.
Well if the same body mass as an intercessor for a 8ft tall alien crustacen is "fat" I think that's a you problem
NAVARRO wrote: Not going to bother dissecting in detail how disappointing this kit is.
I'm afraid to confirm that my concerns with the images on the video would translate into something just like what was revealed today.
Seen much better fan conversions on this type of Nid which is revealing on how poor this official sculpt turned out to be. It's not a scary menacing creature at all, it's a bubble head, messy, fat creature.
2nd kit revealed and its an easy pass.
Well if the same body mass as an intercessor for a 8ft tall alien crustacen is "fat" I think that's a you problem
If you bother reading the comments here and on the 40k new ed thread you would see its a several people problem...
Breotan wrote: I don't like the appendages protruding from the upper jaw. They resemble vestigial arms instead of anything related to a mandible.
I get a real halo covenant & predator mouth vibe so far…
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NAVARRO wrote: Not going to bother dissecting in detail how disappointing this kit is.
I'm afraid to confirm that my concerns with the images on the video would translate into something just like what was revealed today.
Seen much better fan conversions on this type of Nid which is revealing on how poor this official sculpt turned out to be. It's not a scary menacing creature at all, it's a bubble head, messy, fat creature.
2nd kit revealed and its an easy pass.
I’m totally digging the leapers! Like where it’s all going so far!
NAVARRO wrote: Not going to bother dissecting in detail how disappointing this kit is.
I'm afraid to confirm that my concerns with the images on the video would translate into something just like what was revealed today.
Seen much better fan conversions on this type of Nid which is revealing on how poor this official sculpt turned out to be. It's not a scary menacing creature at all, it's a bubble head, messy, fat creature.
2nd kit revealed and its an easy pass.
Well if the same body mass as an intercessor for a 8ft tall alien crustacen is "fat" I think that's a you problem
If you bother reading the comments here and on the 40k new ed thread you would see its a several people problem...
Nah, some people haven't liked the mouth assembly, some have criticised the almost 2nd Ed throwback look, but you're the only one calling them fat so far.
If you bother reading the comments here and on the 40k new ed thread you would see its a several people problem...
Nah, some people haven't liked the mouth assembly, some have criticised the almost 2nd Ed throwback look, but you're the only one calling them fat so far.
If you bother reading the comments here and on the 40k new ed thread you would see its a several people problem...
Nah, some people haven't liked the mouth assembly, some have criticised the almost 2nd Ed throwback look, but you're the only one calling them fat so far.
Would have liked a new Lictor, but then I already have like 5 or 6 of those (lost count), so the new Leapers are a welcome addition and something new!
Unless they radically change the Lictors themselves, you could straight up use the Leapers as Lictors, or get some of your Lictors and use them as Leapers. Curious to see what gonna be up with them.
Role-wise, I guess those could fill the scout/infiltrator/forward deployment role quite well. They could then relegate the Lictors/Deatleaper as assassin back again (and be dangerous in that role).
As someone who has been in and out of Tyranid armies since 3rd edition I'm loving the von Ryan's Leapers. They're clearly a form of smaller lictor in design, but the second set of talons screams influence from the 2nd edition Hormagant to me which I also like. I'm really excited to see how they'll deliver the rest of new Tyranid stuff we'll be getting.
NAVARRO wrote: Not going to bother dissecting in detail how disappointing this kit is.
I'm afraid to confirm that my concerns with the images on the video would translate into something just like what was revealed today.
Seen much better fan conversions on this type of Nid which is revealing on how poor this official sculpt turned out to be. It's not a scary menacing creature at all, it's a bubble head, messy, fat creature.
2nd kit revealed and its an easy pass.
Well if the same body mass as an intercessor for a 8ft tall alien crustacen is "fat" I think that's a you problem
If you bother reading the comments here and on the 40k new ed thread you would see its a several people problem...
I mean, you think Tyranids should be completely redesigned to look like <data missing> because you don't think they look scary or threatening or whatever.... it's 100% a you problem. And thank god nobody at GW shares your bad taste, because you could probably count on one hand the number of Tyranid players worldwide who think their entire army needs to be deleted and redone as centipede-men or tentacled blob pods or whatever inane thing it is you want.
I guess that I'm glad I'm not currently a Tyranid player, because these look really great to me.
Almost did 3rd ed Tyranid army last year using newer plastics, glad i waited as these look perfect for 3rd ed Lictors to me, certainly better than the metal/resin that've been around for nearly 20 years and better than the conversions that use plastic Warriors as the base model. Fingers crossed for plastic Biovores
NAVARRO wrote: Not going to bother dissecting in detail how disappointing this kit is.
I'm afraid to confirm that my concerns with the images on the video would translate into something just like what was revealed today.
Seen much better fan conversions on this type of Nid which is revealing on how poor this official sculpt turned out to be. It's not a scary menacing creature at all, it's a bubble head, messy, fat creature.
2nd kit revealed and its an easy pass.
Well if the same body mass as an intercessor for a 8ft tall alien crustacen is "fat" I think that's a you problem
If you bother reading the comments here and on the 40k new ed thread you would see its a several people problem...
I mean, you think Tyranids should be completely redesigned to look like <data missing> because you don't think they look scary or threatening or whatever.... it's 100% a you problem. And thank god nobody at GW shares your bad taste, because you could probably count on one hand the number of Tyranid players worldwide who think their entire army needs to be deleted and redone as centipede-men or tentacled blob pods or whatever inane thing it is you want.
If you are so sure of your impeccable taste you should not feel threatened by other peoples tastes... Told you several times, go back trolling your typical users no time for your kind.
If you are so sure of your impeccable taste you should not feel threatened by other peoples tastes... Told you several times, go back trolling your typical users no time for your kind.
I'm curious if this posting profile fits into your definition of troll: guy who comes into every Tyranid thread, says Tyranids should be scrapped and reworked from the ground up (but doesn't play Tyranids)
Strg Alt wrote: I am aware of Von Neumann probes being a thing in sci-fi but what the hell is the deal with Von Ryan here?
It is some sort of inside joke, the von Ryan's Leaper appeared on a CCG card in the early 2000s, with very bad art that nobody could quite make out what it was supposed to represent, and since then it was mentioned in several nid codexes as a creature of ambiguous progeny that the Imperials can't really place among the tyranid strains
Strg Alt wrote: I am aware of Von Neumann probes being a thing in sci-fi but what the hell is the deal with Von Ryan here?
Possibly named for the world they were first encountered on - like the Ymgarl Genestealers.
Or the Tyranids themselves (planet Tyran)
Funnily enough, some people here mentioned that the Leapers reminded them of the 2nd edition Hormagaunts, and the 3rd edition Codex actually have the Von Ryan's in the Gaunts genus branch, derived from the Hormagaunts! So good call on that I guess!
Y'know, I always assumed a Von Ryan's Leaper was some kind of indigenous organism that the chart was speculating to be related to Tyranids- the Catachan Devil is also on the same chart (derived from Raveners IIRC) with the same question mark appellation.
Does this mean we might get a Catachan Devil model? Or at least a modern evolution of what was once the feral creature
Probably not, Catachan Devils and some other beings like Fenrisian Kraken being relics of much, much older tyranid invasions is a thing that has been speculated or hinted at for quite some time, a decade at least.
Yeah on those charts and other fluff blurbs, it's never confirmed for either the Leapers or the Catachan Devils, stating it could be indigenous or long-lost organism that were cut-off from their hive and acted as "normal" beast.
Looks like GW decided to expand a bit and confirmed at least the Leapers were indeed Tyranid creatures all along.
I like how they've gone for a weirder vibe with these guys, smaller lictors in packs is a nice idea- broadens out the vanguard forces. The models look a bit odd forth front and I'm not wild about that scheme, but the side shots are more convincing.
Nice use of the old reference from the 3rd ed book too.
Not enough yet to tempt me away from the Votann but I'm looking forward to seeing more of the Nid evolution.
Does this mean we might get a Catachan Devil model? Or at least a modern evolution of what was once the feral creature
That would great to see! If there is a good use for big kits in plastic then Catachan devil would be up there on top of the list.
I think a Catachan devil will sooner or later pop-up in a side or box games, either Necromunda or a BSF-/Quest-like, dunno if it would fit into the context of hive fleet tyranids. A reimagined version, or something inspired by it maybe, but not the classic Devil.
Does this mean we might get a Catachan Devil model? Or at least a modern evolution of what was once the feral creature
That would great to see! If there is a good use for big kits in plastic then Catachan devil would be up there on top of the list.
I think a Catachan devil will sooner or later pop-up in a side or box games, either Necromunda or a BSF-/Quest-like, dunno if it would fit into the context of hive fleet tyranids. A reimagined version, or something inspired by it maybe, but not the classic Devil.
You're probably right. Something like the Zoat ( which is one of those kits I hugely regret not buying at the time)... But how cool would it be if they added it to the Nid dex and gave it a missing link fluff update and a centrepiece kit. That would make me throw money at them, no questions asked.
NAVARRO wrote: Not going to bother dissecting in detail how disappointing this kit is.
I'm afraid to confirm that my concerns with the images on the video would translate into something just like what was revealed today.
Seen much better fan conversions on this type of Nid which is revealing on how poor this official sculpt turned out to be. It's not a scary menacing creature at all, it's a bubble head, messy, fat creature.
2nd kit revealed and its an easy pass.
Well if the same body mass as an intercessor for a 8ft tall alien crustacen is "fat" I think that's a you problem
If you bother reading the comments here and on the 40k new ed thread you would see its a several people problem...
I mean, you think Tyranids should be completely redesigned to look like <data missing> because you don't think they look scary or threatening or whatever.... it's 100% a you problem. And thank god nobody at GW shares your bad taste, because you could probably count on one hand the number of Tyranid players worldwide who think their entire army needs to be deleted and redone as centipede-men or tentacled blob pods or whatever inane thing it is you want.
If you are so sure of your impeccable taste you should not feel threatened by other peoples tastes... Told you several times, go back trolling your typical users no time for your kind.
I saw those fan conversions, they were gak. Looked like a my little pony villain.
As always, I'm going to reserve judgement until I see the model in STEREOVISION(TM). But they look solid in the pics.
And while it's a new kit, conceptually it feels like the return of leaping Warriors from many editions ago. Kinda like how winged Warriors became Shrikes...which may be getting a proper kit...?
Not quite sure I follow the complaints about the mouth. Analogous to plenty of insect mouths, to evolve a method of stabbing into something armoured with clawed mandibles and then using the tentacles to slorp up the precious soft bits within is pretty much bug 101.
Nice to see an old name from the early editions coming to plastic life.
Olthannon wrote: Not quite sure I follow the complaints about the mouth. Analogous to plenty of insect mouths, to evolve a method of stabbing into something armoured with clawed mandibles and then using the tentacles to slorp up the precious soft bits within is pretty much bug 101.
Nice to see an old name from the early editions coming to plastic life.
IMHO the mouth area just looks too busy, and the mouthparts a little bit too massive - if they were a bit smaller it would look better imho, but their size may be necessary due to the limitations of the casting process and medium. Also, i think the paintjob displayed does the whole thing no favors, there's just too much going on in the head area in total, with the orange-ish tentacles, the yellow facetted eyes and the high-contrast tips of the mandible-things. The whole head area and its surroundings just look a bit confused on the first glance, you need a second to make sense of it. I'd wager it looks much better in alternate schemes of even by just toning down the colours on the eyes and tentacles a bit.
Olthannon wrote: Not quite sure I follow the complaints about the mouth. Analogous to plenty of insect mouths, to evolve a method of stabbing into something armoured with clawed mandibles and then using the tentacles to slorp up the precious soft bits within is pretty much bug 101.
Nice to see an old name from the early editions coming to plastic life.
IMHO the mouth area just looks too busy, and the mouthparts a little bit too massive - if they were a bit smaller it would look better imho, but their size may be necessary due to the limitations of the casting process and medium. Also, i think the paintjob displayed does the whole thing no favors, there's just too much going on in the head area in total, with the orange-ish tentacles, the yellow facetted eyes and the high-contrast tips of the mandible-things. The whole head area and its surroundings just look a bit confused on the first glance, you need a second to make sense of it. I'd wager it looks much better in alternate schemes of even by just toning down the colours on the eyes and tentacles a bit.
Now that I'd certainly agree with, but I find that is true of a lot of models. Often it's the angle of the photograph and the paintjob which makes me dislike a model that's previewed, but seeing it in the plastic flesh is a lot better. I think a darker paint job will suit them very well.
Olthannon wrote: Not quite sure I follow the complaints about the mouth. Analogous to plenty of insect mouths, to evolve a method of stabbing into something armoured with clawed mandibles and then using the tentacles to slorp up the precious soft bits within is pretty much bug 101.
Nice to see an old name from the early editions coming to plastic life.
IMHO the mouth area just looks too busy, and the mouthparts a little bit too massive - if they were a bit smaller it would look better imho, but their size may be necessary due to the limitations of the casting process and medium. Also, i think the paintjob displayed does the whole thing no favors, there's just too much going on in the head area in total, with the orange-ish tentacles, the yellow facetted eyes and the high-contrast tips of the mandible-things. The whole head area and its surroundings just look a bit confused on the first glance, you need a second to make sense of it. I'd wager it looks much better in alternate schemes of even by just toning down the colours on the eyes and tentacles a bit.
Now that I'd certainly agree with, but I find that is true of a lot of models. Often it's the angle of the photograph and the paintjob which makes me dislike a model that's previewed, but seeing it in the plastic flesh is a lot better. I think a darker paint job will suit them very well.
While GW's photographers are indeed phenomenal at picking the worst possible angle, for me it's the lack of restraint. The head has teeth. And tentacles. And mandibles. And extra eyes. And an additional chitin plate layer. And the kitchen sink. It's just too much in one place compared to the rest of the body that has an evenly detailed, clean design. It's a point of failure that is far too common on GW sculpts for my liking. 95% of the model shows good taste and judgment, and then there's this one thing the sculptor had to overdo completely.
It's kind of frustrating, but at least oftentimes done in such a way that a simple part swap fixes the issue.
While GW's photographers are indeed phenomenal at picking the worst possible angle, for me it's the lack of restraint. The head has teeth. And tentacles. And mandibles. And extra eyes. And an additional chitin plate layer. And the kitchen sink. It's just too much in one place compared to the rest of the body that has an evenly detailed, clean design. It's a point of failure that is far too common on GW sculpts for my liking. 95% of the model shows good taste and judgment, and then there's this one thing the sculptor had to overdo completely.
It's kind of frustrating, but at least oftentimes done in such a way that a simple part swap fixes the issue.
Yeah I agree with most of that. The fact the head is the focal point of the mini does not help either.
Tsagualsa wrote: It is some sort of inside joke, the von Ryan's Leaper appeared on a CCG card in the early 2000s, with very bad art that nobody could quite make out what it was supposed to represent, and since then it was mentioned in several nid codexes as a creature of ambiguous progeny that the Imperials can't really place among the tyranid strains
Wasn't the codex first? Date in it (2000) predates copyright on the card...
vipoid wrote: Also, is it me or are they a little chunky? Looks like the Hive Mind needs to exercise them a little more
"Chunky"? Where?
They have literal barbie waists barely any thicker than their thighs and human sized limbs (so, really anorexic seeing half of width is supposed to be armored shell). Is that supposed to be some late AF joke or something?
H.B.M.C. wrote: This is what I was afraid of. New things instead of updated old things.
Yep the main difference being things like the upper mandibles where kind of pressed in against the tentacles in a bunch instead of spread out like in the new model.
Well, I've long been disappointed with solo Lictors, so if these get the lictor rules and can be run in groups, I guess that'll be okay. So long as the actual Lictors gets a beef-up so that's its actually terrifying to characters on the battlefield.
On an older question, how many termagants/hormagaunts do people tend to run in a game? I've got 60 apiece of each and was wondering if it was worth investing in more (of the old kits) or if I've got enough for a sane game.
catbarf wrote: Y'know, I always assumed a Von Ryan's Leaper was some kind of indigenous organism that the chart was speculating to be related to Tyranids- the Catachan Devil is also on the same chart (derived from Raveners IIRC) with the same question mark appellation.
Geifer wrote: I don't think Termagants get new bases. The picture from the latest Warhammer Community looks like 40mm bases for Terminators and 25mm bases for Termagants remain the default.
I haven´t seen chessboard markings on SM since the 90s.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I've wanted more small & medium Nids for a long time so this has me pretty happy.
Yeah, the last big update nids got added tons of big monsters, like the Maleceptor and Toxicrene. Good to see them filling out some of the middle-range units.
I'm pretty excited. My main concern is that the Lictor DOESN'T get updated as a result... but we'll see.
You know that the clip clop is due to the horseshoe not the hooves themselves... and that hooves can be very stealthy and extremely well adapted for negotiating rough terrain do you? Please tell me you knew about the existence of horseshoe else this is just embarrassing.
Whilst GW can make some utterly baffling choices at times, I really cannot imagine that the biovore, pyrovore and lictor will make it out of this update without getting new models. Now perhaps they won't all be in the new boxed set so might come after it; but otherwise it just makes so much sense.
Remove the last of the finecast from the model range; update the last of the oldest models and bring the whole army into a modern form. They are already updating the gaunts and screamerkiller (which likely also means carenifex) and they've released mini-lictors.
Then again they released new rangers and rangers on jetbikes for Eldar but didn't update the Ranger Exarch/named hero and Eldar are still running around with the old Warpsiders and such.
It seems that lots of “Tyranid” stuff dropping in June. June 24th is the best guess for 10th release. Aliens Dark Descent releases Tuesday June 20th, & the same company that does that has Space Marine 2 coming out 2023 (Best Buy slipped and had July but took it off days later). I think it’s safe to say June is the month!
Overread wrote: Then again they released new rangers and rangers on jetbikes for Eldar but didn't update the Ranger Exarch/named hero and Eldar are still running around with the old Warpsiders and such.
Eldars are an ancient people so they have ancient models; that's what I tell myself as cry to myself to sleep.
Overread wrote: Whilst GW can make some utterly baffling choices at times, I really cannot imagine that the biovore, pyrovore and lictor will make it out of this update without getting new models. Now perhaps they won't all be in the new boxed set so might come after it; but otherwise it just makes so much sense.
Remove the last of the finecast from the model range; update the last of the oldest models and bring the whole army into a modern form. They are already updating the gaunts and screamerkiller (which likely also means carenifex) and they've released mini-lictors.
Considering what we saw in the trailer and how several monopose units from the Indomitus box saw follow-up kits with variant build options, my current expectation is that:
* Biovores, screamer-killers, and leapers are all pushfit models in the launch box.
* Later there will be an updated multi-part Carnifex kit in a similar style (though perhaps without SK bits).
* A multi-part kit to make 3 leapers, with the options to build as 1-3 Lictors/Deathleaper instead.
* Biovores & spore mines remain available via the pushfit sprues, as they don't need many options.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Unless they kill two Squigs with one stone and combine the Biovore and Pyrovore kits.
Which is something I've expected them to do for utterly ages. 3 in a box with alternate builds just like the zoanthrope/venoms and the hiveguard/tyrant guard sets
I'd guess they're procrastinating on putting energy toward remaking/combining biovores and pyrovores because they've sold basically none of them over the editions.
G. M. wrote: I think the group shot is showing the new biovore in the background.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here, in the red circle:
i love the new models, but add this one to the list of units that are going to have a harder time than they need to surviving because of the way LoS is figured now. completely behind hard cover, except an inch of claws sticking up gets them shot every time. maybe they have something like the 'can't be targeted from more than 12"', or they stop punishing good looking models on the table top in 10th. who knows.
ph34r wrote: I'd guess they're procrastinating on putting energy toward remaking/combining biovores and pyrovores because they've sold basically none of them over the editions.
Didn't both of these units have moments in 9th edition where they were powerful, efficient choices? That period alone would have likely been enough to clear their stock.
Biovores have been "ok" at other points in earlier editions, too. They would have sold plenty throughout the years, especially during the numerous fallow periods when Tyranids weren't getting any new models and longtime Tyranid players had very little to do in the way of expanding their army other than buying the ugly bits and pieces they'd saved for last.
Geifer wrote: I wouldn't compliment the 2nd ed Lictor on its superior good looks either...
2nd Ed one was great. Then 3rd Ed happened and we try to forget about those. Then we got the current one, which is sleeker and nicer than the 2nd Ed one.
There was no 3rd Ed one, just to be very clear on the topic. Like ever. All pictures of a "3rd Ed Lictor" are lies.
Geifer wrote: I wouldn't compliment the 2nd ed Lictor on its superior good looks either...
2nd Ed one was great. Then 3rd Ed happened and we try to forget about those. Then we got the current one, which is sleeker and nicer than the 2nd Ed one.
There was no 3rd Ed one, just to be very clear on the topic. Like ever. All pictures of a "3rd Ed Lictor" are lies.
Yeah, the Deathleaper was my favorite at the time and very much welcomed. Part of the reason why I'm hoping for a plastic update is that I like Lictors, but all the models have a mix of good parts and dodgy parts and I'm hoping that a plastic version will be cleaned up and combine the best parts of the various incarnations. Maybe even with little cosmetic options such as pointy claw tips that can be replaced with grabby claw tips like the Deathleaper has to give people some variety. I mean, many kits come with a ton of head options. Would be nice to have that for Tyranids as well.
Von Ryan's Leapers are a goodish sign that we might get a good looking model, but of course for now we don't even know if there will be an updated Lictor at all. Fingers crossed.
Haha, I think I have a "Lictor" at pretty much every scale of bug, because as mentioned above things got pretty boring there for about a decade if you were a Tyranid main, and I had nothing better to do than make a Gaunt Lictor, a Broodlord Lictor, a Tyrant Lictor, etc.
Part of me wouldn't mind if they made the wallet-unfriendly decision to make Leapers a single-build kit and then release an embiggened Lictor, because my Tyrant Lictor has been ready to go for years (and never saw a lot of use during the various "wings are best" metas):
Geifer wrote: I wouldn't compliment the 2nd ed Lictor on its superior good looks either...
2nd Ed one was great. Then 3rd Ed happened and we try to forget about those. Then we got the current one, which is sleeker and nicer than the 2nd Ed one.
There was no 3rd Ed one, just to be very clear on the topic. Like ever. All pictures of a "3rd Ed Lictor" are lies.
That I can agree with! The 2nd edition model was pretty fine, and the one from 4th (or 5th, wasn't around during those editions to know on top of my head) was a nice update of that model. Nothing else was release in-between them. That's a shame as I liked most of the 3rd edition Tyranids range (tho very few things can be worse than metal Gargoyles, right?).
Altruizine wrote:Haha, I think I have a "Lictor" at pretty much every scale of bug, because as mentioned above things got pretty boring there for about a decade if you were a Tyranid main, and I had nothing better to do than make a Gaunt Lictor, a Broodlord Lictor, a Tyrant Lictor, etc.
Part of me wouldn't mind if they made the wallet-unfriendly decision to make Leapers a single-build kit and then release an embiggened Lictor, because my Tyrant Lictor has been ready to go for years (and never saw a lot of use during the various "wings are best" metas):
Maybe some 2nd Ed stats would help define the wibbling of us older, sorry, Glorious Veteran folks. Because in 2nd Ed, the Lictor was pretty nasty to fight.
First? Tyranid Warrior as a base line. I won’t go into their weapons, as they’re not especially relevant to this demonstration.
Tyranid Warriors
M6, WS6, BS4, S5, T5, W2, I5, A3, Ld10
Carapace gave a 5+ save, ignored all psychology and auto passed Ld tests, passed this on to any friendly unit with 12”, and caused Fear.
Pretty nasty in their way. Main downside was their armour being pretty cack, but suffice to say even Elite infantry could struggle against them in HTH.
Lictor
M6, WS7, BS4, S6, T5, W3, I8, A4 Ld10
Acute Senses - could spot Hidden troops at wide its I value (so 16”)
Chameleon Scales - All shots at a Lictor that didn’t move suffered -1 to hit
Hiding - if a Lictor hides, it can’t be spotted, only detected. This meant you couldn’t shoot at it, except with Blast or Template weapon, and those would only hit it on a 4+
Exoskeleton - 5+ Invulnerable save. If it dodged a template it can move 2” as the Tyranid player wishes. If that doesn’t clear the template, it’s hit as normal.
Fear. GRRR GRIBBLE GRIBBLE MADE YOU BESMIRCH YOUR PANTALOONS!
Flesh Hooks. Basically a 16” range Bolter, but highly amusingly, if it hit, the target was dragged 2D6” toward the Lictor, and if brought into base to base, it’s in close combat. Could also be used for Vertical Movement if running or charging.
Leadership. It doesn’t care. Ever.
Infiltration. Is what it ever was.
Poison. Any HTH opponents wounded but not killed suffers additional wounds at the end of that combat round. Roll 1D6. For every point over the targets toughness, it suffers that many wounds (so on a T3, if they rolled a 6, 3 more wounds. Only roll once per poisoning, but can be poisoned again
So what?
Well, it was flipping nasty. It could happily Infiltrate and Hide, and just lurk there, being a pretty decent threat. Its combined WS7 and I8 gave it a pretty damned decent chance of taking on lone characters, or gubbing the typically smaller units we saw in 2nd Ed.
With a 12” charge, it could project serious board control whilst simply hiding. And any one close enough to Detect it put themselves quite comfortably into charge range - but not necessarily LoS.
The main downside is that despite its 5+ Invulnerable, if hit it was relatively squishy. Remember this is the days of even the humble Heavy Bolter dishing out D4 wounds, and up to 6 shots. But given how sneaky stealthy this beasty was? You had to either actively hunt the bugger down, or give it as wide a berth as you could.
I’d need to consult the main rulebook (which I can’t be bothered to do right now) to remind myself if you could target specific models in a squad during 2nd Ed. Part of me says you could, but I can’t say for certain if that was just a house rule, my brother lying (always a strong possibility!) or if you could, but with a modifier, provided you had legitimate LoS. But certainly my memory is of Lictors yanking higher value targets out of a unit using Fleshhooks, then giving the poor victim a Bloody Good Kicking, I’m talking “doing the Skinhead Moonstomp On Your Face” beaten up.
Oh my I forgot it could take a single Biomorph. Excuse me whilst I refresh.
Oooh. Hardened Carapace gave it a 2+ - which could never be reduced beyond 5+ on Lictor. Regenerate was of course a classic, but mostly seen on Carnifex.
Sod it, Voltage Field would be the one for me. 4+ Additonal Invulnerable, and +1 Strength. Then again, that stack might’ve been nixed with the No Double Fixed Save errata. In which case I’d got for Sharpened Claws - +2S, and counted as a psychic attack against stuff like Daemons. Daemons did not like that up ‘em.
Maybe some 2nd Ed stats would help define the wibbling of us older, sorry, Glorious Veteran folks. Because in 2nd Ed, the Lictor was pretty nasty to fight.
First? Tyranid Warrior as a base line. I won’t go into their weapons, as they’re not especially relevant to this demonstration.
Tyranid Warriors
M6, WS6, BS4, S5, T5, W2, I5, A3, Ld10
Carapace gave a 5+ save, ignored all psychology and auto passed Ld tests, passed this on to any friendly unit with 12”, and caused Fear.
Pretty nasty in their way. Main downside was their armour being pretty cack, but suffice to say even Elite infantry could struggle against them in HTH.
Lictor
M6, WS7, BS4, S6, T5, W3, I8, A4 Ld10
Acute Senses - could spot Hidden troops at wide its I value (so 16”)
Chameleon Scales - All shots at a Lictor that didn’t move suffered -1 to hit
Hiding - if a Lictor hides, it can’t be spotted, only detected. This meant you couldn’t shoot at it, except with Blast or Template weapon, and those would only hit it on a 4+
Exoskeleton - 5+ Invulnerable save. If it dodged a template it can move 2” as the Tyranid player wishes. If that doesn’t clear the template, it’s hit as normal.
Fear. GRRR GRIBBLE GRIBBLE MADE YOU BESMIRCH YOUR PANTALOONS!
Flesh Hooks. Basically a 16” range Bolter, but highly amusingly, if it hit, the target was dragged 2D6” toward the Lictor, and if brought into base to base, it’s in close combat. Could also be used for Vertical Movement if running or charging.
Leadership. It doesn’t care. Ever.
Infiltration. Is what it ever was.
Poison. Any HTH opponents wounded but not killed suffers additional wounds at the end of that combat round. Roll 1D6. For every point over the targets toughness, it suffers that many wounds (so on a T3, if they rolled a 6, 3 more wounds. Only roll once per poisoning, but can be poisoned again
So what?
Well, it was flipping nasty. It could happily Infiltrate and Hide, and just lurk there, being a pretty decent threat. Its combined WS7 and I8 gave it a pretty damned decent chance of taking on lone characters, or gubbing the typically smaller units we saw in 2nd Ed.
With a 12” charge, it could project serious board control whilst simply hiding. And any one close enough to Detect it put themselves quite comfortably into charge range - but not necessarily LoS.
The main downside is that despite its 5+ Invulnerable, if hit it was relatively squishy. Remember this is the days of even the humble Heavy Bolter dishing out D4 wounds, and up to 6 shots. But given how sneaky stealthy this beasty was? You had to either actively hunt the bugger down, or give it as wide a berth as you could.
I’d need to consult the main rulebook (which I can’t be bothered to do right now) to remind myself if you could target specific models in a squad during 2nd Ed. Part of me says you could, but I can’t say for certain if that was just a house rule, my brother lying (always a strong possibility!) or if you could, but with a modifier, provided you had legitimate LoS. But certainly my memory is of Lictors yanking higher value targets out of a unit using Fleshhooks, then giving the poor victim a Bloody Good Kicking, I’m talking “doing the Skinhead Moonstomp On Your Face” beaten up.
Oh my I forgot it could take a single Biomorph. Excuse me whilst I refresh.
Oooh. Hardened Carapace gave it a 2+ - which could never be reduced beyond 5+ on Lictor. Regenerate was of course a classic, but mostly seen on Carnifex.
Sod it, Voltage Field would be the one for me. 4+ Additonal Invulnerable, and +1 Strength. Then again, that stack might’ve been nixed with the No Double Fixed Save errata. In which case I’d got for Sharpened Claws - +2S, and counted as a psychic attack against stuff like Daemons. Daemons did not like that up ‘em.
Or Venom Sacs for D3 in HTH.
This is how I still think of a lictor, absolutely terrifying. I vaguely remember a rule about deploying it hidden that involved marking in a pice of paper which piece of terrain the lictor was hidden in and not revealing it to your opponent, making them stay away from cover and put in the open more often than not. Or am I misremembering?
You may be thinking of 3rd Ed DE Mandrakes. They had really cool deployment rules, but were sadly otherwise just running about in their Y-fronts with penknives.
That's a Lictor to me - a suped up Genestealer (WS7! A4!) with a host of special rules to make them even deadlier. They could take on high-level Marine characters solo, and were always worth bringing.
Did have a fun game where a 4th Level Terminator Librarian and a Lictor spent all game locked in combat. The Lictor would win every round, but the Terminator Armour kept the wounds away. Endless stalemate!
A Lictor, in a pinch and with just a modicum of luck could take an Assassin.
Main downside of course was no Parry. And pretty much all my characters paid points for something they could Parry with. Even if it didn’t win the combat for you, it could at least downgrade A Complete Kicking to a Mild Drubbing. Or for our American Chums, a Boo-boo to a mere Uh Oh.
In hindsight, I think against Marines I’d got for the Sharpened Claws to help dig them out their armour. Like a whelk. Even Terminator Armour didn’t like a -5 modifier. Anyone else I think I’d want the Venom Sacs for those delicious D3 wounds, as -3 was plenty against non-Terminator armours.
Hence Von Ryan’s Leapers may be the development which allows Lictors to take their rightful place as Assassin Bugs par excellence, and not something which jumps out, goes “boogada boogada” then gets its tentacle kicked down its throat by…well….pretty much anything, so far as I can tell.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You may be thinking of 3rd Ed DE Mandrakes. They had really cool deployment rules, but were sadly otherwise just running about in their Y-fronts with penknives.
No, he's thinking of 3rd edition Lictors, which were deployable into cover and were written down in advance (and which opposing units could search for).
Then in 4th they could pop out of area terrain, which was usually kind of fun, but occasionally impossible to do (or impossible to do meaningfully).
The more I talk about and brush up on 2nd Ed, the more I mourn for Formerly Deadly Units which got made all squishy and crap and armed with LARP safe weapons.
I mean, there is a middle ground to be had. I’m not demanding Banshees, as another solid example, become the “if I charge you, you’re all going to die in 3…2….1….” Unit again. But I’d still like to see them, and other overly nerfed units become Cause For Concern.
I thought there was a 3rd edition Lictor? I know I have three versions of it, including the current one, which going by the codex art -- seen left -- was the 4th edition release.
Dryaktylus wrote: A lot of them didn't get models in 3rd edition. I don't remember Tyrant Guards, Biovores or even Carnifexes. Strange...
Weird, right? You'd've thought that the edition to introduce Tyrant Guard would have included miniatures, but nope. Completely absent. And certainly not designed to be "Tyranids using Marine DNA". That'd be ludicrous!
gigasnail wrote: i love the new models, but add this one to the list of units that are going to have a harder time than they need to surviving because of the way LoS is figured now. completely behind hard cover, except an inch of claws sticking up gets them shot every time. maybe they have something like the 'can't be targeted from more than 12"', or they stop punishing good looking models on the table top in 10th. who knows.
I am yet to be convinced that the Leapers would qualify for such accommodations - I think I'll need to see them in person to make that call.
+ + +
HBMC (and others) - you seem to be suffering from some selective amnesia. I'd see a doctor about that, if I were you (and if you remember reading this post).
H.B.M.C. wrote: That's a Lictor to me - a suped up Genestealer (WS7! A4!) with a host of special rules to make them even deadlier. They could take on high-level Marine characters solo, and were always worth bringing.
Did have a fun game where a 4th Level Terminator Librarian and a Lictor spent all game locked in combat. The Lictor would win every round, but the Terminator Armour kept the wounds away. Endless stalemate!
its been my preferred image of a lictor for the last 30 years. loved them.
but then i also prefer the 2nd ed exarch to all subsequent versions.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Did have a fun game where a 4th Level Terminator Librarian and a Lictor spent all game locked in combat. The Lictor would win every round, but the Terminator Armour kept the wounds away. Endless stalemate!
I had a similar scenario in my sole game of 2nd ed. Ghazghkull Thraka and a Lictor locked in stalemate for a few turns, until it was joined by a Hive Tyrant (which still didn't quite do the job) and a Carnifex (which did).
Well, it was flipping nasty. It could happily Infiltrate and Hide, and just lurk there, being a pretty decent threat. Its combined WS7 and I8 gave it a pretty damned decent chance of taking on lone characters, or gubbing the typically smaller units we saw in 2nd Ed.
I’d need to consult the main rulebook (which I can’t be bothered to do right now) to remind myself if you could target specific models in a squad during 2nd Ed. Part of me says you could, but I can’t say for certain if that was just a house rule, my brother lying (always a strong possibility!) or if you could, but with a modifier, provided you had legitimate LoS. But certainly my memory is of Lictors yanking higher value targets out of a unit using Fleshhooks, then giving the poor victim a Bloody Good Kicking, I’m talking “doing the Skinhead Moonstomp On Your Face” beaten up..
Don't recall shooting rules(you had to shoot at nearest unit at least) but h2h you only attacked models in b2b. So in charge 2-3 maybe. After that opponent can move 1 model into contact, rest shot away, you killed 1. If opponent didn't fail morale test killing entire squad was tricky. I have had thirster kill surprisingly brave guardsmen 1 soldier at time. With 4 round games that wasn't too imppressive
Dysartes wrote: HBMC (and others) - you seem to be suffering from some selective amnesia. I'd see a doctor about that, if I were you (and if you remember reading this post).
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You may be thinking of 3rd Ed DE Mandrakes. They had really cool deployment rules, but were sadly otherwise just running about in their Y-fronts with penknives.
No, he's thinking of 3rd edition Lictors, which were deployable into cover and were written down in advance (and which opposing units could search for).
Then in 4th they could pop out of area terrain, which was usually kind of fun, but occasionally impossible to do (or impossible to do meaningfully).
Mandrakes in 3rd Ed had you place three Mandrakes/Markers that could move around but not attack or charge and when you chose to reveal them, you picked one to be the real unit, removed the other two, and deployed the models around the one you chose.
IIRC, Catachan booby traps when using their jungle table rules had the "mark a secret map" thing like Lictors and games between Nids and Catachans using those rules could get real trap card-y.
Yeah I like that take on stealth - no need to write things down on paper and keep it secret and it really lets you mess with your opponent
Even if you do have to write it down to make one the official choice so you can't change it on the fly; it can still let you do all kinds of mindgames on your opponent and make them do things that they otherwise wouldn't to avoid the potential threat
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You may be thinking of 3rd Ed DE Mandrakes. They had really cool deployment rules, but were sadly otherwise just running about in their Y-fronts with penknives.
No, he's thinking of 3rd edition Lictors, which were deployable into cover and were written down in advance (and which opposing units could search for).
Then in 4th they could pop out of area terrain, which was usually kind of fun, but occasionally impossible to do (or impossible to do meaningfully).
Mandrakes in 3rd Ed had you place three Mandrakes/Markers that could move around but not attack or charge and when you chose to reveal them, you picked one to be the real unit, removed the other two, and deployed the models around the one you chose.
Man, 3rd had a lot of cool ideas.
Yeah, and second edition had hidden deployment and equipment related to it, like Auspexes or Chameleoline cloaks. 3rd edition also had the jungle-fighting ambush rules, which were also cool.
In a good game that did not take place on the equivalent of a single supermarket parking lot, hidden movement with 'blip' markers and such would have the potential to be very fun and tactical for many armies, but 40k tables at the moment are too small and too crowded to do much with it i fear. Even transports barely make sense for actual transporting purposes.
Overread wrote: Yeah I like that take on stealth - no need to write things down on paper and keep it secret and it really lets you mess with your opponent
Even if you do have to write it down to make one the official choice so you can't change it on the fly; it can still let you do all kinds of mindgames on your opponent and make them do things that they otherwise wouldn't to avoid the potential threat
If only Mandrakes has been a threat to literally anything at all.
Overread wrote: Yeah I like that take on stealth - no need to write things down on paper and keep it secret and it really lets you mess with your opponent
Even if you do have to write it down to make one the official choice so you can't change it on the fly; it can still let you do all kinds of mindgames on your opponent and make them do things that they otherwise wouldn't to avoid the potential threat
If only Mandrakes has been a threat to literally anything at all.
Hey, that's not fair, they were made of metal and had sharp edges, if you stepped one one they were at least as dangerous as Legos
Altruizine wrote: I thought there was a 3rd edition Lictor? I know I have three versions of it, including the current one, which going by the codex art -- seen left -- was the 4th edition release.
We ignore the 3rd edition model because it was so ugly it might as well not exist. But that's not as funny when we have to explain the joke But now you know
And damn you guys, I took my 2nd ed Codex out and went back to the good old days!
Carnifex with Acid Blood Biomorph (for a mere 5pts!): If wounded or killed in close combat, all models in base contact get a auto-hit at a Strength equal to the creature's Toughness (in this case, 8), at -5 AP (because of how AP worked back then).
Regenarate was good but pricy (10pts per wound, so +100pts here). I would often go for Toughened Exoskeleton for +1T in that case. The Carnifex was a tank and quite dangerous back then!
3rd ed was a really strange bag for tyranids. I feel like the gaunts to warriors did really really well out of it. Zoanthropes too.
However Carnifex and Tyrant I was never a fan of their designs. Even though I think they fit in certain themes (I think the tyrant head looks good on a winged one); they just didn't win for me. Raveners too were a bit like that.
I think the issue was those models had some very oversized parts to them. Raveners had enlarged heads and upper scything blades; Tyrant too looked like its head was too big for the body.
4th edition I feel was the best all round and established the design that really carried Tyranids forward to today.
Mandrakes in 3rd Ed had you place three Mandrakes/Markers that could move around but not attack or charge and when you chose to reveal them, you picked one to be the real unit, removed the other two, and deployed the models around the one you chose.
A slight annoyance when you had three units of Mandrakes, as you needed three lots of three guys who had to look distinctive, yet when the unit description is 'living shadow' there's not much room for colour variation!
3rd edition Raveners were a bit goofy but at least, unlike the current ones, they held their ranged weapons instead having them hidden in their thorax, and somehow still magically being as powerfull and having the same range as the Warriors equivalents.
Shadow Walker wrote: 3rd edition Raveners were a bit goofy but at least, unlike the current ones, they held their ranged weapons instead having them hidden in their thorax, and somehow still magically being as powerfull and having the same range as the Warriors equivalents.
But at least they got models in 3rd Ed, unlike, say, Lictors.
H.B.M.C. wrote: But at least they got models in 3rd Ed, unlike, say, Lictors.
Because it was GW's masterplan, foretold by their prognosticators so we are now even more hyper excited for an incoming new model which they will, in their infinite wisdom we mortal could not even comprehend, not show until a second or possibly even third wave.
Shadow Walker wrote: 3rd edition Raveners were a bit goofy but at least, unlike the current ones, they held their ranged weapons instead having them hidden in their thorax, and somehow still magically being as powerfull and having the same range as the Warriors equivalents.
But at least they got models in 3rd Ed, unlike, say, Lictors.
Which isn't always a blessing. The Red Terror got a model at the time effectively in the shape of an alternate Ravener, when its artwork and fluff had it as a towering monstrosity as large or larger as the Trygon ended up. One edition later we might have seen a properly sized plastic version, possibly as an alternate build to the Trygon. Instead it came before the plastic revolution and has yet to get an update, if it ever happens.
I loved my Red Terror, especially when it nibbled on stuff the model couldn't possibly swallow whole. But damn if it didn't try. So cute. Shame GW never allowed it to grow to its full size.
Tyranids don't have a wealth of hero models and I could well see the Red Terror return one day - considering that we've basically got all the others back in some form - Old One Eye, Parasite, Doom. Heck with a Neurothrope and the new Tyranid on the horizon the Doom is sort of kind of back in two forms; whilst Old One Eye I'd argue has slipped back a bit and the Screamer Killer has kind of stepped up.
I think in part because the Screamer Killer is more iconic and classic, whilst Old One Eye was basically just a Carnifex with one eye missing and that was about it. It never really stood out in a big way by having a unique look or just being the classic look.
So I could well see Red Terror return; perhaps its just waiting for the Trygon kit to hit its age and get replaced (which could be a long while); or GW could give it an upgrade sprue or components.
As for Raveners I rather liked them having thorax weapons and the new plastic kits do more to show them off than the 2nd range of metal kits did. I'd say the only thing I miss from the 1st generation of them is that the 1st gen did have suitably long tails. The 2nd and 3rd itterations have had much shorter tails and whilst they fit on the base well, they do feel just a touch small/short. I'd have liked to see more coils and curves, though I also appreciate that doing that in plastics is not easy without them all being coiled cobras.
Overread wrote: Tyranids don't have a wealth of hero models...
I wish they had less.
I wish they had more.
See the way I see it Tyranids can certainly have unique biostrains and rare units that are simply not produced in vast numbers and thus operate similar to how other armies might have a hero or great leader.
They might start out like Old One Eye - a unique evolution - which creates the leading story. Or perhaps just the first world where a thing is seen (eg the Parasite) being the naming convention since most Tyranid lore is either narrators voice or reports from other races that encounter them.
But from then on can be generic creations of that strain of Tyranid; just in very limited numbers so that most armies might only field one of them (at least at the scales we play the game). So we get all the benefits of having access to hero units that other factions do.
From having unique models and one off sculpts through to having unique rules, mechancis and twists on things that can bring new things to the table without having to build an entire whole core of the army around them; which might well then either break the army balance by filling too many tactical weak points; copycatting other units and just being flat out better or just bloating the range.
The Red Terror was created for a specific purpose, when the Hive Mind came up against an enemy in an environment it hadn't yet considered or found a counter. The Red Terror proved useful, and thus "production model" burrowing creatures were created - Raveners and Trygons and the like.
But The Red Terror isn't a personality. It doesn't sit back going "Yes! My progeny! Now they burrow to my enemy's ultimate doooooom!". It's just a tool, and, by this stage, an obsolete one superseded by the aforementioned "production model" burrowers. The Red Terror, by rights, should never appear again. It served its purpose, and the Hive Mind used it to find a solution to a specific problem and now has the more advanced creatures to use should that situation ever reemerge or to adapt to new strategies.
The Swarmlord, which is too personal a name for my liking, shouldn't be a personality, reborn across battlefields like some Tyranid version of Skeletor screaming "I'll get you next time Calgar! Next time!" every time he gets defeated and reabsorbed. It should be a niche tool that's used for particularly large or complex conflicts, where a level of in-the-field synaptic control beyond the capabilities of regular Hive Tyrants is required.
But it's not a "hero" in the sense that other armies have their leaders. The Tyranids need to be as faceless as possible. That's the horror of the Hive Mind. It has no compassion or empathy. It doesn't care who or what you are. It just wants to consume, and all its various creations are but tools to be used for either specific or general tasks, with new ones created when new situations arise and just as easily discarded when the problem is resolved or the tool fails to meet the requirements of its task.
Thing is Tyranids don't control their DNA like a scientist in a laboratory. Whilst they can store and create units with DNA of specific types, they also display a natural degree of variation. Gaunts produced in vast numbers are not perfect genetic copies of each other. There is genetic drift that happens during the Tyranid reproduction process.
Tyranids rely on this to generate new strains and seem able to take strains and recreate them, but at the same time those new strains will continue to have genetic drift; which where benefits arise lets them constantly keep evolving to new situations.
Of course this requires that they encounter specific situations to evolve for them. Even though they can share information through their mind link; they also appear to have a lot of individuality and different fleets have different focuses.
Tyranids strike me as being very alien in that we don't know how a lot of their stuff functions at even a basic level in detail. They seem to have elements of them that are very animalistic/instinctive coupled to what we'd consider more higher level thinking functions.
It's a kind of crazy duality that makes them hard to predict.
But within that I can see reason for them having strains that are hard to recreate. Perhaps the specific conditions that allowed the Red Terror to evolve are rare to encounter and thus it never quite recreates the same unit. Or perhaps its generation is more difficult to genetically recreate perfectly. So each Fleet might only be able to create a very limited number of them.
Again we'd end up with "The Red Terror" as identified by Imperial Scientists. A leader unit that perhaps has lesser versions of itself created or derivative ones - but the Red Terror remains at the head.
It's a hero in the game rules in that its a unique 0-1 with unique stats that fits in a leader role and slot in the army structure.
However as a Tyranid Hero I'd argue it should indeed not be just 1 for the whole race; just super limited when deployed to battlefields by hive fleets.
The only one that should stand out is the Swarmlord; even then I cna agree its a bit odd within the whole Swarm. Narrative wise I can see why GW want it because it can be used to create stories and links; even if the poor thing is mostly used for big named heroes of other factions to fight to show off
Well one concept does not exclude the other in my opinion.
They can be a faceless basic level animal ( lesser creatures with no synapse independence and that revert to animal behaviour if abandoned/ left behind)
They can also be high level intelligent creatures ( vanguard nids, lictors, gene stealers, Zoes, brood lords that can act independently away from the hive mind and dont revert to animals)
They can have hero creatures too, more by accident than replication ( vanguard Nids that cracked a hard nut in a very specific way on a specific battle that is remembered by the imperium) ( all nid narrative fluff is done by a Imperium point of view).
Except that the Tyranid lifespan is essentially nothing. Once they win they all get turned into biogoo and reabsorbed to be turned into other things come the next conflict. The Swarmlord doesn't return to the bridge of the USS Hive Mind and scream "Set course for Terra! Buffet speed!"
Tyranids are disposable by nature, as they are simply the weapons, organs and limbs of a greater intelligence. It'd be like claiming the index finger on my left hand is a "hero".
H.B.M.C. wrote: Except that the Tyranid lifespan is essentially nothing. Once they win they all get turned into biogoo and reabsorbed to be turned into other things come the next conflict. The Swarmlord doesn't return to the bridge of the USS Hive Mind and scream "Set course for Terra! Buffet speed!"
Tyranids are disposable by nature, as they are simply the weapons, organs and limbs of a greater intelligence. It'd be like claiming the index finger on my left hand is a "hero".
Very limited and selective way to look at it.
Genestealers, broodlords can infect a planet years before any Nid official presence ( hibernation too etc)... Theres also the idea that the planet changes itself gradually when first discreet organisms "land"... this to me says that genetically the lesser life of a planet starts to change at a cellular level too.
Not all nids are the same and not all organic menace is the same, theres more layers than that. IMO.
Indeed. While a big part of tyranid bio-organisms may be seen as just disposable weapons, it's also possible to see it as that's not the case of all of them assuming very specialized roles and asking for more ressources to spawn.
It may be very possible these aren't being "recycled" in the food soup at the end of the planet invasion cycle and rather get back on the ships with whatever method the Hive Mind has, simply because it's too costy to waste them that way.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Except that the Tyranid lifespan is essentially nothing. Once they win they all get turned into biogoo and reabsorbed to be turned into other things come the next conflict. The Swarmlord doesn't return to the bridge of the USS Hive Mind and scream "Set course for Terra! Buffet speed!"
Tyranids are disposable by nature, as they are simply the weapons, organs and limbs of a greater intelligence. It'd be like claiming the index finger on my left hand is a "hero".
And yet I'd wager you've a hand that you favour for things like writing. Even though you can learn to use the other hand for the same exercise, we often favour one hand over the other. So if you were given a choice to lose one, even though in theory they are the same, you'd likely always choose one over the other.
Tyranids are also not fully disposable in nature - Hive Ships can be untold millennia old; whilst Norn Queens are likely similar. Hive Tyrants are likely preserved between many battles and many could be very old indeed.
What's more true is that the Swarm preserves what it requires and renders down what it does not; so long as rendering it down is more cost efficient than transporting it in a live state.
So for a vast overwhelming majority its true. A gaunt to a carnifex is "disposable". They can be rendered down and later replicated and replaced.
But when we talk about unique evolution strains; specific powerful/notable/hard to replicate creatures then we see a difference.
There's a risk with Tyranids, more so than other factions, of boiling down their lore to its simplest terms and applying them wholesale to the whole force. More so because we don't honestly get much lore from within the swarm itself and most observations are in combat situations. Heck we don't even have a single clue what the huge planet-sized creation they've built is for. We can see it projecting a huge Shadow in the Warp, but beyond that we really don't know what it does, what its for, why its there or what it means.
I'm not sure I've seen a Tyranid surface-to-orbit transport since a very old piece of 2nd Ed lore, or any fluff support for anything but all the ground-based critters getting reabsorbed.
The fluff also makes it clear that the Swarmlord is spawned again and again, and isn't a single individual that goes into hibernation between battles. I do remember Hive Ships described as containing Warriors in hibernation, the 'cocooned officers of monsters yet to be born' or something like that, but they could just be spawned on the ship rather than retrieved from every conquest.
So I mean, this seems like a theory that at best is unsupported by the fluff, or might be contradicted.
And I dunno, even referring to your hand as an analogy to Tyranid creatures seems way too large-scale. Got any favorite white blood cells? Any slightly more effective neurons you particularly regard as important?
catbarf wrote: I'm not sure I've seen a Tyranid surface-to-orbit transport since a very old piece of 2nd Ed lore, or any fluff support for anything but all the ground-based critters getting reabsorbed.
The fluff also makes it clear that the Swarmlord is spawned again and again, and isn't a single individual that goes into hibernation between battles. I do remember Hive Ships described as containing Warriors in hibernation, the 'cocooned officers of monsters yet to be born' or something like that, but they could just be spawned on the ship rather than retrieved from every conquest.
So I mean, this seems like a theory that at best is unsupported by the fluff, or might be contradicted.
And I dunno, even referring to your hand as an analogy to Tyranid creatures seems way too large-scale. Got any favorite white blood cells? Any slightly more effective neurons you particularly regard as important?
I might well be remembering a few scant bits of earlier lore. It's a downside to an evolving lore that sometimes bits of the old stuff get stuck in the mind even if they aren't repeated as much in latter publications. It can also be that sometimes the latter parts aren't repeated or are repeated in side content (video games or such) not the core narrative.
Certainly we know that Genestealer Cults will migrate on ships and preserve their forces world to world if they are left untouched by the greater swarm. There's also stories of individual uplifted Cult members being brought to the world that the Tyranids built and interacting with it which appeared to increase their connection to the swarm on a greater level.
So we know that the concept of individual preservation and importance is present within the swarm, even if it manifests greatest in the Genestealer Cults end of things. And accepting that if the Swarm arrives at a world it is far more likely to absorb the greater number of cultists into its whole.
catbarf wrote: I'm not sure I've seen a Tyranid surface-to-orbit transport since a very old piece of 2nd Ed lore, or any fluff support for anything but all the ground-based critters getting reabsorbed.
The fluff also makes it clear that the Swarmlord is spawned again and again, and isn't a single individual that goes into hibernation between battles. I do remember Hive Ships described as containing Warriors in hibernation, the 'cocooned officers of monsters yet to be born' or something like that, but they could just be spawned on the ship rather than retrieved from every conquest.
So I mean, this seems like a theory that at best is unsupported by the fluff, or might be contradicted.
And I dunno, even referring to your hand as an analogy to Tyranid creatures seems way too large-scale. Got any favorite white blood cells? Any slightly more effective neurons you particularly regard as important?
Genestealers do hibernate.
Not a favourite blood cell but in a hand fingers comparison some may say thumbs is more important than other fingers But even on our own organisms theres plenty we dont know about and how they interact.
What Im saying here is that in the universe of what tyranids are I can speculate they are more than just the units you see mentioned on a given codex and even on that small selection of organisms we know about, some can hibernate and live long lives.
On a comical note everyone can see what they want and thats totally fine but the fluff is based from an imperial only perspective, with that said... what imperium names has unique heroes may well be just a normal stock Nid on every fleet they just dont know that.
Must be specially hard to write fluff when they dont "talk" or "communicate" outside the Hive... there was the Zoats has "negotiators" IIRC but thats not a thing now.
I think that's one thing I love about Tyranids - because their lore isn't written by themselves about themselves; they have the most alien of lores and presentations. What we know is almost guesswork and deductions from other races. It gives them a huge amount of scope to do something really alien and odd that we don't see the logic in because we can only see a corner of the picture through a dirty lens.
NAVARRO wrote: Very limited and selective way to look at it.
You're right, I'm not looking at vanguard organisms that infect worlds long in advance. But that's done to limit the defences (if not outright remove them) by the time the Hive Fleet arrives for dinner time. Everything in service of a singular goal, devised by a singular, irrepressible hive mind.
NAVARRO wrote: Not all nids are the same and not all organic menace is the same, theres more layers than that. IMO.
But not individuals. Not personalities. Not "heroes".
At best I could see it like "resurrection" from Battlestar Galactica, but the Cylons weren't a hive mind.
Overread wrote: And yet I'd wager you've a hand that you favour for things like writing. Even though you can learn to use the other hand for the same exercise, we often favour one hand over the other. So if you were given a choice to lose one, even though in theory they are the same, you'd likely always choose one over the other.
A Tyranid would just regrow the hand.
Overread wrote: Tyranids are also not fully disposable in nature - Hive Ships can be untold millennia old; whilst Norn Queens are likely similar. Hive Tyrants are likely preserved between many battles and many could be very old indeed.
Well going by the organism metaphor, the Hive Ships are vital internal organs in that they carry what's needed for the next meal... except even they can be replaced if need be. Whatever the case, they're still just faceless limbs of a greater organism. And why would they preserve Hive Tyrants?
Overread wrote: What's more true is that the Swarm preserves what it requires and renders down what it does not; so long as rendering it down is more cost efficient than transporting it in a live state.
Tyranid ships do store living creatures in stasis, both for defensive purposes and because they are giant factories building armies on the way to the next conflict.
I'd wager that neither think that way, because neither truly think. They are purely instinctual creatures, and when under the control of the Hive Mind they would pay no attention to one another because they don't need to. The Hive Mind knows where they are.
Overread wrote: But when we talk about unique evolution strains; specific powerful/notable/hard to replicate creatures then we see a difference.
Why would they be hard to replicate? The Tyranids absorb everything and take everything that works and discard the rest. Unique evolution strains would either be purposeful adaptations to overcome an unforeseen or new obstacle, or mutations that the Hive Mind might attempt to quarantine (wasn't there a Hive Fleet that got disconnected from the Hive Mind... it's been a while).
Overread wrote: There's a risk with Tyranids, more so than other factions, of boiling down their lore to its simplest terms and applying them wholesale to the whole force. More so because we don't honestly get much lore from within the swarm itself and most observations are in combat situations. Heck we don't even have a single clue what the huge planet-sized creation they've built is for. We can see it projecting a huge Shadow in the Warp, but beyond that we really don't know what it does, what its for, why its there or what it means.
Because the Tyranids aren't complex. The Tyranids are a single dominant will that has a level of malevolence but at the same time is driven by a single all-encompassing drive: To consume all.
Everything it does works towards this goal. Genestealer Cults corrupt worlds to render them defenceless to the eventual Hive Fleet. They don't do it out of "loyalty" or because they "believe" in the goals of the Tyranids. They do it because they are genetically programmed to do it that way. Every creature is designed for either a specific task or type of combat (or mundane task within the fleets, like red/white blood cells), or has proven to be so generally useful across numerous battlefields that the Hive Mind keeps it in "production". That device you describe? Sounds precisely like what I'm talking about: The Hive Mind is making something new to combat a specific threat or overcome an obstacle (it's ability to futz with the Warp is quite effective, so now it's trying to make something that can extend that effect across a larger area - and if that "prototype" works, you can guarantee it'll start to make more of them!).
Overread wrote: I think that's one thing I love about Tyranids - because their lore isn't written by themselves about themselves; they have the most alien of lores and presentations. What we know is almost guesswork and deductions from other races. It gives them a huge amount of scope to do something really alien and odd that we don't see the logic in because we can only see a corner of the picture through a dirty lens.
Exactly and that is why theres unlimited fun speculating about it. Almost like a sandbox and you build upon it.
That can be carried out to modelling where you expand and convert "evolved" variants.
Overread wrote: But when we talk about unique evolution strains; specific powerful/notable/hard to replicate creatures then we see a difference.
Why would they be hard to replicate? The Tyranids absorb everything and take everything that works and discard the rest. Unique evolution strains would either be purposeful adaptations to overcome an unforeseen or new obstacle, or mutations that the Hive Mind might attempt to quarantine (wasn't there a Hive Fleet that got disconnected from the Hive Mind... it's been a while)
We have to assume that there are elements hive fleets find hard to replicate and that there are limits on their genetic capacity otherwise they'd just make singular super-weapon style tyranids. Why waste biomatter on legions of gaunts when you can save all that and make just a handful of super titanic tyranids to wipe out a world's defences. I like to think that for all their clear higher intelligence and capacity to evolve and modify and such; the Tyranids still have to operate closer to a living creature than a scientist. Again we see that they can't just spin up specific DNA and keep true to that DNA; they have genetic drift with their breeding, they rely on situations arising and providing pressure on their produced offspring to give rise to a vastly sped up survival of the fittest type of evolution.
Within that there's scope that there are bits we don't understand about what limits there are for their recreation. There clearly are limits and there clearly are elements that restrict what they can and cannot do whilst at the same time they almost appear to have infinite variety and potential.
And yes I recall that there have been swarms isolated from the Hive Mind. I don't think we even really know what the Hive Mind is. I think more recent lore has pushed the idea that the Hive Mind is a fusion of both real world and Warp energies. Which would explain how, in universe, they can remain in communication over vast physical distances; if they are communicating through the Warp in the background. It also helps drive home the idea about how the Tyranids clearly user warp energies for psy powers and also have a presence in the Warp that drives other warp entities away. The befuddling nature of the Warp would also help explain how Tyranids can maintain communications over vast distances and yet still end up with fleets isolated or how fleets might not exchange perfect DNA information with each other (hence why fleets specialise and why some might have some mutations others do not).
I think that there've been a few cases of isolation and even Genestealer Cults can end up isolated from the Hive Mind; which if the cult is successful, just leads to them leaving the world they've taken and spreading to other worlds and expanding their influence (which of course creates a bigger amount of Psy for them to potentially lure fleets in with
To add a bit to the "hero" "individuality" debate and sorry to still mention Genestealers but a Patriarch is, in my view, that particular genestealer Individual that grows old and fat and everyone follows etc. It's a good example that shows, that maybe, individuality is a possibility within Tyranids.
If ships may be unfathomably old, that’s because the Hive Fleets, thanks to the Shadow In The Warp, see relatively little battle. Some will be actively defended due to their value (holding Norn Queens), but others are replaceable, and not individually essential.
Ground side? Special character bugs could simply be the result of chance mutation. The Red Terror could well be a Ripper Genus with a serious case of Gigantism. Or they could be incredibly specialist bugs only spawned/deployed when their unique talents are truly required.
This is also why Swarms are reabsorbed during the final stages of a successful invasion. To shuttle them back up to the Hive Fleets would require specialist creatures for just that purpose. Or, you can have them all jump in the digestion pools, rendering them down to primordial goo, then sook them up with everything else.
Their individual minds are all that individual. Instead the Hive Mind sees all through its gribblies, which are closer to individual cells in a colossal life form. Any particularly successful bioform or attack is noticed, noted, and remembered by The Whole Of The Thing. So again, there’s little point in preserving the bioform itself. All you need to know is already known just by it’s existence.
Patriarchs are individuals, "recent" GSC lore has been clear about that, and arguably Purestrain Genestealer are also individuals.
But it is also clear that is just a very specific exception to facilitate their role as long term infiltration organisms. That individuality is lost when the Hive Fleet appears and the broodmind is assimilated by the Hive Mind.
Automatically Appended Next Post: EDIT: regarding the recent weapons article and the shown Termagant datasheet, the guns seem to be very balanced against each other.
Spinefists are actually our strongest option for termagants because 2 shots with twin-linked should put some decent anti-infantry attacks with the downside being 12" range.
Fleshborers are actually the weakest, but Assault + 18" range mean it has the highest reach.
Devourers are in the middle of the pack with greater output than fleshborers and greater range that spinefists, but the lack of Assault means they are slower.
...
I think I will need some spinefist termagants.
Overread wrote: But when we talk about unique evolution strains; specific powerful/notable/hard to replicate creatures then we see a difference.
Why would they be hard to replicate? The Tyranids absorb everything and take everything that works and discard the rest. Unique evolution strains would either be purposeful adaptations to overcome an unforeseen or new obstacle, or mutations that the Hive Mind might attempt to quarantine (wasn't there a Hive Fleet that got disconnected from the Hive Mind... it's been a while)
We have to assume that there are elements hive fleets find hard to replicate and that there are limits on their genetic capacity otherwise they'd just make singular super-weapon style tyranids. Why waste biomatter on legions of gaunts when you can save all that and make just a handful of super titanic tyranids to wipe out a world's defences. I like to think that for all their clear higher intelligence and capacity to evolve and modify and such; the Tyranids still have to operate closer to a living creature than a scientist. Again we see that they can't just spin up specific DNA and keep true to that DNA; they have genetic drift with their breeding, they rely on situations arising and providing pressure on their produced offspring to give rise to a vastly sped up survival of the fittest type of evolution.
Within that there's scope that there are bits we don't understand about what limits there are for their recreation. There clearly are limits and there clearly are elements that restrict what they can and cannot do whilst at the same time they almost appear to have infinite variety and potential.
And yes I recall that there have been swarms isolated from the Hive Mind. I don't think we even really know what the Hive Mind is. I think more recent lore has pushed the idea that the Hive Mind is a fusion of both real world and Warp energies. Which would explain how, in universe, they can remain in communication over vast physical distances; if they are communicating through the Warp in the background. It also helps drive home the idea about how the Tyranids clearly user warp energies for psy powers and also have a presence in the Warp that drives other warp entities away. The befuddling nature of the Warp would also help explain how Tyranids can maintain communications over vast distances and yet still end up with fleets isolated or how fleets might not exchange perfect DNA information with each other (hence why fleets specialise and why some might have some mutations others do not).
I think that there've been a few cases of isolation and even Genestealer Cults can end up isolated from the Hive Mind; which if the cult is successful, just leads to them leaving the world they've taken and spreading to other worlds and expanding their influence (which of course creates a bigger amount of Psy for them to potentially lure fleets in with
the most plausible, "realistic" tyranid invasion would consist of dumping biotoxins and micro/nano scale weapons that dissolve the entire biosphere into digestible sludge, and then slurping it all up. why drop a few big, impractical titan bugs what will just get ventilated by the enemies warheads and lasers when you can wage war with viruses and poisons?
H.B.M.C. wrote: I look at it as a form of "rapid prototyping".
The Red Terror was created for a specific purpose, when the Hive Mind came up against an enemy in an environment it hadn't yet considered or found a counter. The Red Terror proved useful, and thus "production model" burrowing creatures were created - Raveners and Trygons and the like.
But The Red Terror isn't a personality. It doesn't sit back going "Yes! My progeny! Now they burrow to my enemy's ultimate doooooom!". It's just a tool, and, by this stage, an obsolete one superseded by the aforementioned "production model" burrowers. The Red Terror, by rights, should never appear again. It served its purpose, and the Hive Mind used it to find a solution to a specific problem and now has the more advanced creatures to use should that situation ever reemerge or to adapt to new strategies.
The Swarmlord, which is too personal a name for my liking, shouldn't be a personality, reborn across battlefields like some Tyranid version of Skeletor screaming "I'll get you next time Calgar! Next time!" every time he gets defeated and reabsorbed. It should be a niche tool that's used for particularly large or complex conflicts, where a level of in-the-field synaptic control beyond the capabilities of regular Hive Tyrants is required.
But it's not a "hero" in the sense that other armies have their leaders. The Tyranids need to be as faceless as possible. That's the horror of the Hive Mind. It has no compassion or empathy. It doesn't care who or what you are. It just wants to consume, and all its various creations are but tools to be used for either specific or general tasks, with new ones created when new situations arise and just as easily discarded when the problem is resolved or the tool fails to meet the requirements of its task.
Honestly, the Swarmlord is the one Tyranid Special Character I really can't stand. The other 'characters' seem appropriate as either specialised versions of existing entities or unexpected mutations of such (and being extremely rare or even one-of-a-kind as a result). Though playable, the fluff often implies that they've only been seen on a single world.
However, the Swarmlord breaks the trend by being a distinct entity that is repeatedly being respawned exactly as-is.
As such, it seems far too much like a regular character. I also think it gives far too much of a recognisable face to the Hive Mind.
Also, the fact that he was retroactively shoehorned (with all the subtlety of 3rd rate fanfiction) into prior stories does nothing to endear him to me.
NAVARRO wrote: To add a bit to the "hero" "individuality" debate and sorry to still mention Genestealers but a Patriarch is, in my view, that particular genestealer Individual that grows old and fat and everyone follows etc. It's a good example that shows, that maybe, individuality is a possibility within Tyranids.
Out of curiosity, do Patriarchs ever resist being dissolved/absorbed?
I might well be remembering a few scant bits of earlier lore. It's a downside to an evolving lore that sometimes bits of the old stuff get stuck in the mind even if they aren't repeated as much in latter publications. It can also be that sometimes the latter parts aren't repeated or are repeated in side content (video games or such) not the core narrative.
You're not remembering old lore, you're making stuff up.
NAVARRO wrote: To add a bit to the "hero" "individuality" debate and sorry to still mention Genestealers but a Patriarch is, in my view, that particular genestealer Individual that grows old and fat and everyone follows etc. It's a good example that shows, that maybe, individuality is a possibility within Tyranids.
Out of curiosity, do Patriarchs ever resist being dissolved/absorbed?
I think that depends if they, in the end, managed to actually lure a fleet in to do so. The ultimate goal is to infiltrate and infect and multiply by reproduction... It's one of those instances where halfbreeds actually can communicate and understand the infected race to a deeper level ( than just run and eat them like a wild animal).
If a cult knows theres more worlds in that sector they may well expand if no fleet has come to assimilate all biomatter.
An old Patriarch that lived countless years hibernating as a genestealer and then manages to get to a juicy world and then spends more decades making babies, I think he would not resist the pool at all (parenting is not easy you know XD)... Because his pure genestealers generations, that also born from his deeds, are probably already drifting away hidden in the ships that managed to escape the cult rise. His young seeds carry on but he reached his limits.
Speaking about lictors, another vanguard organism specialised in camouflage, mimetism etc my thoughts dwell on how did they managed to get ahead before the fleet arrives, totally undetected... Maybe a special drop pod or a spore that grows... no idea but an octopus crossed with praying mantis does need a better mini than those showed so far.
The original Swarmlord fluff practically had sunlight glinting off his teeth. They leaned very close to him being a constantly reborn individual that had distinct memories downloaded into each new shell. Obviously, I hated this idea.
Regarding GSC generally they happily trot into the hive ships or a nice relaxing digestive pool.
However, there has been fluff that says some stealers flee ahead of the HF or that the HM deems dodgy for some reason and refuses to accept. In either case, the effect is to propagate another wave of infiltration.
Souleater wrote: The original Swarmlord fluff practically had sunlight glinting off his teeth. They leaned very close to him being a constantly reborn individual that had distinct memories downloaded into each new shell. Obviously, I hated this idea.
Regarding GSC generally they happily trot into the hive ships or a nice relaxing digestive pool.
However, there has been fluff that says some stealers flee ahead of the HF or that the HM deems dodgy for some reason and refuses to accept. In either case, the effect is to propagate another wave of infiltration.
I know I've seen lore implying that the GSC are generally not down with being eaten by the tyranids; they just don't realize they will be until it's too late. But when it does become too late it's terrible, because even the Genestealers that were "in" the cult turn against them.
Other than opportunity. There’s really nothing stopping a Genestealer Cult spreading.
Even a “passing for human” 4th Gen can start the process anew - they just won’t necessarily have a Patriarch at first. All they have to do is hypnotise a victim of the opposite sex, and have a baby. Baby will be a Purestrain, and presumably a Patriarch waiting to happen.
Hm, I recall pretty clearly that it wasn't just the Swarmlord--all Tyrants have their intelligence reabsorbed into the Hive Mind then respawned in new bodies.
In fact all Tyranid synaptic creatures do it, that's why in crusade we can respawn a synapse creature as a different synapse creature with the same amount of experience.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Hm, I recall pretty clearly that it wasn't just the Swarmlord--all Tyrants have their intelligence reabsorbed into the Hive Mind then respawned in new bodies.
Technically, it’s the experiences of all Tyranid Organisms, and it’s live-streamed/recorded to the Hive Mind, as they’re all part of the Hive Mind, not mere extension of it.
I’d need to check my books, but if memory serves Hive Tyrants simply have a greater autonomy, and capacity to rationalise, marking them above other lesser bugs which are more instinctual than intelligent outside of the synaptic web.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To use a crap analogy, consider how our bodies sense something.
Our entire body feels. Temperature, humidity, other sensations such as texture, pressure and what have you.
That is the majority of the swarm. Passive input devices. The Hive Tyrants are closer to the eyes, something the Hive Mind, being the brain, can focus on once source of stimulation for greater scrutiny.
So a Gaunt Brood might be encountering stiff resistance. The Hive Mind knows this, and to some degree can channel extra into the Gaines to find out more. But a Hive Tyrant, or I suppose a Warrior Brood can provide a wider range of stimuli for analysis, and from that suggestions of how to overcome said resistance.
Hence as well as denting the local synaptic web, slaying Tyrants and other Leader Bugs hampers the Hive Mind, as it loses that source of focus and increased stimuli.
Has anyone of you got any Tyranids related info from the newsletter? I have nothing in my box so far, and I am wondering if it is my thing or GW simply did not send anything yet?
Shadow Walker wrote: Has anyone of you got any Tyranids related info from the newsletter? I have nothing in my box so far, and I am wondering if it is my thing or GW simply did not send anything yet?
Shadow Walker wrote: Has anyone of you got any Tyranids related info from the newsletter? I have nothing in my box so far, and I am wondering if it is my thing or GW simply did not send anything yet?
Just these from 4/7 & last Friday
Thanks! It looks like I need to subscribe for the Nids newsletter for a third time. Maybe this time it will work? Never had any problems before with their emails not getting to me. Weird.
Shadow Walker wrote: Has anyone of you got any Tyranids related info from the newsletter? I have nothing in my box so far, and I am wondering if it is my thing or GW simply did not send anything yet?
Just these from 4/7 & last Friday
Thanks! It looks like I need to subscribe for the Nids newsletter for a third time. Maybe this time it will work? Never had any problems before with their emails not getting to me. Weird.
The Hive Mind has seen you as unworthy and will just digest you, no need for you to understand the future.
Shadow Walker wrote: Has anyone of you got any Tyranids related info from the newsletter? I have nothing in my box so far, and I am wondering if it is my thing or GW simply did not send anything yet?
Just these from 4/7 & last Friday
Thanks! It looks like I need to subscribe for the Nids newsletter for a third time. Maybe this time it will work? Never had any problems before with their emails not getting to me. Weird.
The Hive Mind has seen you as unworthy and will just digest you, no need for you to understand the future.
Seems so. Just got a message from the Norn Queen about being demoted to the Rippers in the next respawning.
So we know what we will see next - from the terrain article: ''...come back next week for a look at the Tyranid leader from the cinematic trailer who’s strong enough to tear a Terminator in two.''
There's not really much you can change on a ripper unless you go for that ripper swarm base that FW did. Considering that they might still have regular rippers on other sprue that aren't being updated, it makes sense that they might be a slight upgrade but not a big refresh.
Ripper bases like the FW ones would have been nice. Nurglings got that treatment in plastic, and even Scarab swarms became more swarmy looking in the new Necron kits.
Overread wrote: There's not really much you can change on a ripper unless you go for that ripper swarm base that FW did. Considering that they might still have regular rippers on other sprue that aren't being updated, it makes sense that they might be a slight upgrade but not a big refresh.
Spine ripper, horned ripper, winged ripper, cortex leech, heel ripper, 2nd ed ripper... some of the things they could have explored. Or FW nurgling like clusters since they are sticking to bare minimums in concept updates. But no you got 4 or five disjointed minis on a base.
Main difference with the rippers is that the eyes look like they're below the carapace, instead of peering out through holes in it. Which matches the rest of the tyranid range better. It's now just some of the forgeworld models (hierodules, hierophants) which still have that look.
Hierodules and maybe even the Hierophant ought to be converted over to plastic to give Nids a plastic lord of war. Probably the Hierodule, since it could be a Knight equivalent, would fit on a knight base, and has at least a ranged and cc focused version.
I'm keen to see how the new Termagants compare sizewise to the ancient 2nd ed plastics. Those were a bit too small ... but the 3rd ed plastics were a bit too big.
If the new ones strike a happy medium, it might be possible to get naturalistic variation in creature size by mixing sculpts from all three eras into the same brood. (Plus the old metals if you've got them.) Might make them seem more like hordes of real living creatures and less like model kits.
Alternatively you could use each era of sculpt for a different brood--all the 3rd ed plastics in brood 1, the new plastics in brood 2, that sort of thing--so that they're easy to distinguish on the table when crowded together.
(I have a motley collection going back to late 2nd ed, so just thinking aloud.)
Shadow Walker wrote: So we know what we will see next - from the terrain article: ''...come back next week for a look at the Tyranid leader from the cinematic trailer who’s strong enough to tear a Terminator in two.''
Just caught this- that's a weird brag, since that's been within a normal genestealer's wheelhouse since terminators were introduced.
4 Rippers per base? After Necron's Scarabs, I expected them more crowded there, like 5-6 per base.
Rippers were always individual. People just defaulted to 3 because that was their wound characteristic for years. 3 models for 3 wounds and it also let you field more without having to buy legions of kits.
So even now you could put 4, 5, 7 or however many you can squeeze onto a base.
Shadow Walker wrote: So we know what we will see next - from the terrain article: ''...come back next week for a look at the Tyranid leader from the cinematic trailer who’s strong enough to tear a Terminator in two.''
Just caught this- that's a weird brag, since that's been within a normal genestealer's wheelhouse since terminators were introduced.
Genestealers have always been known to slice right through terminator armor, not rip them in half.
Hooray for new rippers. Just like with the new scarabs, I wish they were a bit more massed like nurglings (or the FW version, as seen below). Just a tidal wave of fangs sweeping over anything in their path. I guess if you accumulate enough, you could make your own waves, but that could take awhile
catbarf wrote: I have six of those FW Ripper bases and while I love them to bits, the ~$80 USD was not the greatest cost they inflicted upon me.
Given the cost of three nurgling swarms is $35 USD, it's "funny" that the FW kit only cost a bit more.
Since these swarms are likely to come included in another unit, I guess it's not too bad that there aren't that many on the bases. Hopefully some of the other new nids will include a few on their own bases that can help supplement the swarm
MajorWesJanson wrote: 4 rippers on a base just doesn't feel like a swarm to me. Maybe a gang, or a pack, but not a full swarm.
As much as you can think of Rippers or Scarabs as a free addition to another kit, I'm not a fan of being limited by how much of the parent kit you buy. It naturally leads to stretching out your swarms to get the most out of the limited number of critters you have. I actually prefer swarms as their own kits provided they're sculpted to look like swarms. Even if it means paying extra. My Tomb Kings swarms always looked much better than my Necron swarms.
MajorWesJanson wrote: 4 rippers on a base just doesn't feel like a swarm to me. Maybe a gang, or a pack, but not a full swarm.
As much as you can think of Rippers or Scarabs as a free addition to another kit, I'm not a fan of being limited by how much of the parent kit you buy. It naturally leads to stretching out your swarms to get the most out of the limited number of critters you have. I actually prefer swarms as their own kits provided they're sculpted to look like swarms. Even if it means paying extra. My Tomb Kings swarms always looked much better than my Necron swarms.
The obvious solution is of course having both available as an option.
Problem with units included as part of another unit box is that you need to pay for a minis that you may either not need or want just to get the other one. Now I wonder if the Rippers are part of Termagants' sprue or a separate one, and if the latter then will they finally add them to Parasite's box or will they force people to buy Termas just to have the Parasite be able to use its full rules?
MajorWesJanson wrote: 4 rippers on a base just doesn't feel like a swarm to me. Maybe a gang, or a pack, but not a full swarm.
As much as you can think of Rippers or Scarabs as a free addition to another kit, I'm not a fan of being limited by how much of the parent kit you buy. It naturally leads to stretching out your swarms to get the most out of the limited number of critters you have. I actually prefer swarms as their own kits provided they're sculpted to look like swarms. Even if it means paying extra. My Tomb Kings swarms always looked much better than my Necron swarms.
The obvious solution is of course having both available as an option.
It'll never happen, but its definitely feasible to do both. Swarms recently have come attached to new kits, like the necron scarabs. But the nurglings are their own thing, despite the plaguebearers coming with seven different ones to decorate the bases (and a billion others scattered through different sets). If GW wanted to, they could eventually release separate ripper swarms, and then just relegate the new ones to base decorations (shouldn't be hard, since they aren't attached like necron scarabs)
I like that the wings are folded but I don't really like their position and angle, would have probably liked them more if the wings are in the top slot and the claws are below rather than the other way
Also while it is a tyranid prime it has quite a lot of differences in his design to the current warriors so we might see new warriors?
After seeing so many Hive Tyrants with WFB Dragon wings crudely welded to the back, it's nice to see the wings looking like a integrated part of the model.
Matrindur wrote: I don't really like how the wings are positioned, need to see some 360-shots first
Yeah, I don't really need the 360. That's just... bad, especially when compared to the trailer screenshot, which they also provide (where it looks like the wings' 'shoulder joints' are actually a shoulder height, obscured behind the creature).
On the technical sculpting side its.. fine. But biology and physics are off crying in the corner.
It also looks like someone just took a CAD file of the vargheist wings and melded some tyranid bits in, and hit 'print.'
I'm really not liking the tyranid reveals so far...
I like the design of the wings but the posing doesn't scream character model to me, more like unit champion who needs to not break squad cohesion. That said at least it's a sign we'll finally have Shrike's in plastic
Since it is a starter box model, I wonder if they will keep it that way or we could expect more weapon options for it in the future? The best way IMO would be for it to be part of either Shrikes (like the Prime in current Warriors) or dual Shrikes/Warriors kit.
Overread wrote: If it sticks to standard tyranid assembly then you can likely easily swap that around for your own
True. The wing membranes don’t seem to connect to the body, so a swap would likely be pretty straight forward.
I think, like the Necron Skorpekh Lord, this may be the only Winged Alpha we’ll see. Whether Warriors will have wings added in, or be split into two flavours I guess time will tell. Maybe Saturday.
While I really like the look of the Gargoyles in flight, open wings would just take up soo much space and would be a pain to transport / move on the board.
On the technical sculpting side its.. fine. But biology and physics are off crying in the corner.
As they should, half of the point of Nids is to make biology and physics their bitch.
That's certainly a take. I tend to think of eldar as the space wizards, necrons as the super scientists for 'feth physics' in the material world and nids primarily as their biological counterparts. They still have to deal with reality, even if its 40k's dumb saturday morning cartoon version of reality.
Wings there feels like it would headbutt the floor a lot, especially with all that armor at the shoulders.
Sotahullu wrote: In my case I really hope that Shrieks would be their own thing rather then just Warriors with wings.
But they are Warriors with wings just like Gargoyles are Gaunts with wings
During 2nd Ed Gargoyles were pretty useful.
Rather than Fleshborers, they had Flamespurt, essentially a S3 Flamer.
Whilst unlike most Flame weapons it couldn’t set anyone alight? It would drive enemies back, and out of cover. If hit but not killed, enemy models had to move to the nearest edge of the Flame Template. If they couldn’t, they took another hit.
Best usage of this requires some finesse, but it could neatly break coherency with a modicum of effort.
And yes. I think I am going to use a photo of Uncle Albert every time I wibble about the past glories of 2nd Ed.
I do not know if it is just the article thing but the creature is called the Winged Tyranid Prime not Shrike Prime. It may or may not be a suggestion that the name Shrike will not be officially used for the future unit, being left for the fluff only as some kind of IG's nickname for them.
Sotahullu wrote: In my case I really hope that Shrieks would be their own thing rather then just Warriors with wings.
But they are Warriors with wings just like Gargoyles are Gaunts with wings
During 2nd Ed Gargoyles were pretty useful.
Rather than Fleshborers, they had Flamespurt, essentially a S3 Flamer.
Whilst unlike most Flame weapons it couldn’t set anyone alight? It would drive enemies back, and out of cover. If hit but not killed, enemy models had to move to the nearest edge of the Flame Template. If they couldn’t, they took another hit.
Best usage of this requires some finesse, but it could neatly break coherency with a modicum of effort.
And yes. I think I am going to use a photo of Uncle Albert every time I wibble about the past glories of 2nd Ed.
I meant their fluff (not TT stats/utility), being derived from the Gaunt genus just like Shrikes are from Warriors
I don't think the front view does it justice - the side view briefly appearing in the video looks better. He definitely could use weapon options and shrike buddies.
I take it that will be the minor HQ for the assumed new recruit starter set. Looks a little strange not in a flying pose, but I really like it as it stands out better than the current Tyranid Prime.
Overread wrote: If it sticks to standard tyranid assembly then you can likely easily swap that around for your own
True. The wing membranes don’t seem to connect to the body, so a swap would likely be pretty straight forward.
The points from the shoulder armor might interfere with moving the arms to the upper spots and posing. May have to trim the armor back or cut the points off and reposition them or use the extra armor from the biomorphs.
I don't particularly like this model, I will probably skip it. Too short arms/claws for a model this encumbered by the wings, it really makes you wonder how clumsy it would be when not flying.
I think even if he is snap-fit it isn't going to take tremendous effort to cut off limbs and swap them around. That makes me happy, though not as happy as full swappable arms would be. Still though, nice details, interesting pose, something a bit different... I like it.
I quite like it! Gonna be a fine addition to the swarm! Love the model myself, and if there's not too much of the CAD jigsaw design on him it could be easy to alter the pose a bit (especially if you get multiples).
A shame the Community article didn't show any stats or the like, because normally a Prime is not something I'd consider to have the raw strength to be ripping Termy in half (while taking assault cannon shot at point blank). I'm surprised that this is "just" a Prime and not something new (like between a Prime and a Tyrant).
Skywave wrote: I quite like it! Gonna be a fine addition to the swarm! Love the model myself, and if there's not too much of the CAD jigsaw design on him it could be easy to alter the pose a bit (especially if you get multiples).
A shame the Community article didn't show any stats or the like, because normally a Prime is not something I'd consider to have the raw strength to be ripping Termy in half (while taking assault cannon shot at point blank). I'm surprised that this is "just" a Prime and not something new (like between a Prime and a Tyrant).
I wondered about the lack of stats, we haven't seen anything about jump/fly so far, it might be the reason why but it would have been good to see in here. Likewise they suggest buying a harpy and gargoyles for them to tag onto which seems a fairly loaded hint on which units they can join.
I like it in a pteranodon kind of way. Looks like the wing arms can give extra support while on the ground, and keeps the model a bit more contained on the base than some flyrants I have known.
Shadow Walker wrote: Looking at the model makes me think it is on 50mm base. Hopefullly someone will make some nice size comparison trick with Warriors etc.
Altruizine wrote: None of the winged Tyranid models allow swapping the winged limbs to another socket without conversion.
Don't listen to advice about "standard Tyranid assembly" from someone who has apparently never assembled a Tyranid.
You mean Warriors don't have 4 arm sockets which are pretty much universal?
Cause last I checked they've been that way for a long long time and if you look at the model presented the lower wing arms don't look like they are doing anything beyond ball and socket at the surface of the model. Sure if its push-fit it might well be that the ball is only formed enough for the outer-surface and the internal is a peg assembly; but chances are you could convert it pretty easily. But if it stuck to standard warrior build designs then the arms would just have a ball - which could go into the lower or upper arm socket spot.
The real barrier would be if it ends up too low an angle and prevents you mounting lower arms underneath
Both version don't really look great, or even good. Back carapace is cool, head fin too, but wtf is up with the back edges of the chitin plates on the head? Looks weird.
Conversion fodder for a regular Prime (if that will be even worth running).
Altruizine wrote: None of the winged Tyranid models allow swapping the winged limbs to another socket without conversion.
Don't listen to advice about "standard Tyranid assembly" from someone who has apparently never assembled a Tyranid.
You mean Warriors don't have 4 arm sockets which are pretty much universal?
Cause last I checked they've been that way for a long long time and if you look at the model presented the lower wing arms don't look like they are doing anything beyond ball and socket at the surface of the model. Sure if its push-fit it might well be that the ball is only formed enough for the outer-surface and the internal is a peg assembly; but chances are you could convert it pretty easily. But if it stuck to standard warrior build designs then the arms would just have a ball - which could go into the lower or upper arm socket spot.
The real barrier would be if it ends up too low an angle and prevents you mounting lower arms underneath
Every winged Tyranid has wing-arms that slot into a predefined orientation. No flex without conversion.
Snapfit increases the likelihood of that. The fact that the arms are large and heavy, and precisely-oriented (ie. the right arm has to end up with a flat part parallel to the base) increase the likelihood of that. They'll probably have deep, keyed fittings and will need some hacking before they'll even mate with the upper sockets. And even after one does that it will probably look bad and cramped because of the extended shoulderpads.
I don't get why a flying Prime would have substantially more armour and random protrusions (read: weight) than a walking one.
Honestly, I'd have much preferred to see them go the other way and shrink the armour (closer to a Broodlord). And ffs ditch the random crap on the back and the bonesword he's glued to his head.
I'd also have liked to see different feet. Maybe something more like claws/talons?
Basically I'd like to see more effort than GW bunging some Crypt-Horror wings on a Prime, gluing some carnifex leftovers to his back, and then calling it a day.
vipoid wrote: I don't get why a flying Prime would have substantially more armour and random protrusions (read: weight) than a walking one.
Honestly, I'd have much preferred to see them go the other way and shrink the armour (closer to a Broodlord). And ffs ditch the random crap on the back and the bonesword he's glued to his head.
I'd also have liked to see different feet. Maybe something more like claws/talons?
Completely agree with all of this. Looking optimistically, we can see he is clearly much beefier than the current prime, so if we get a new foot-prime it may be even thicker by comparison (I'm not so optimistic as to hope for dual-build).
I do feel he more or less confirms incoming Shrikes by his simple existence though.
vipoid wrote: I don't get why a flying Prime would have substantially more armour and random protrusions (read: weight) than a walking one.
Honestly, I'd have much preferred to see them go the other way and shrink the armour (closer to a Broodlord). And ffs ditch the random crap on the back and the bonesword he's glued to his head.
I'd also have liked to see different feet. Maybe something more like claws/talons?
Basically I'd like to see more effort than GW bunging some Crypt-Horror wings on a Prime, gluing some carnifex leftovers to his back, and then calling it a day.
Which random crap on the back do you mean? The heat vents? There's slightly more plating on there but I don't see the problem with it really?
Otherwise yeah the foot based one being heavier armoured makes more sense, as would the winged version getting the talon feet like the tyrant does.
vipoid wrote: I don't get why a flying Prime would have substantially more armour and random protrusions (read: weight) than a walking one.
Honestly, I'd have much preferred to see them go the other way and shrink the armour (closer to a Broodlord). And ffs ditch the random crap on the back and the bonesword he's glued to his head.
I'd also have liked to see different feet. Maybe something more like claws/talons?
Basically I'd like to see more effort than GW bunging some Crypt-Horror wings on a Prime, gluing some carnifex leftovers to his back, and then calling it a day.
The foot talons were a smart touch on the Flyrant kit, so I too wish that was seen here. I suppose it mattered more back when the number of arms/weapons on a model ostensibly had a bearing on its statline/attacks.
Looks like the wings are fairly self contained (ie membranes only attach to the wing limbs). Probably pretty easy to move them to the upper limb position with a bit of hobby knife work and maybe some green stuff. The wing position on the model is a bit awkward, like they would get in the way or easily injured in a melee, but the 360 in the video does look better than the still photos.
Dudeface wrote: Which random crap on the back do you mean? The heat vents? There's slightly more plating on there but I don't see the problem with it really?
They're massive.
Bear in mind that the current foot Prime has no stacks at all, so his back is much more streamlined.
Then we have this guy, who has a mass of huge, bony ridges growing out of his back. I just don't see the point.
Dudeface wrote: Which random crap on the back do you mean? The heat vents? There's slightly more plating on there but I don't see the problem with it really?
They're massive.
Bear in mind that the current foot Prime has no stacks at all, so his back is much more streamlined.
Then we have this guy, who has a mass of huge, bony ridges growing out of his back. I just don't see the point.
The foot version does have them to some degree but I assume as a limitation of the cast they don't have the surface texture, at the very least it feels they're maybe a growing spree away from this guy? Or like this guy would be an alpha prime.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Looking optimistically, we can see he is clearly much beefier than the current prime, so if we get a new foot-prime it may be even thicker by comparison (I'm not so optimistic as to hope for dual-build).
I do feel he more or less confirms incoming Shrikes by his simple existence though.
Speculation time:
The 10e launch box has a new brainbug that works as reimagined of Doom of Malantai (with callbacks to the original 90's Zoanthrope model) and may effectively replace the Neurothrope. There's also a beefier Warrior Prime that's almost certainly a pushfit model.
With GW's current design approach of allowing game-legal units from a single box of models, the current Warrior and Zoanthrope kits may have issues.
What if the current Prime and Neutrothrope models now become sergeant equivalents and a fixed part of the unit datasheet, rather than a separate character entry? Brainbug takes the former role of the Neurothrope as a separate psychic leader character. Then at some point in future we get a new Primarisified Warrior Prime multipart kit separate from Warriors.
