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 Platuan4th wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
The head has teeth. And tentacles. And mandibles.

All of which were present on the 2nd Ed Lictor, who also had the bonus of a bottom jaw of teeth, too.

I wouldn't compliment the 2nd ed Lictor on its superior good looks either...

 ph34r wrote:
I'd guess they're procrastinating on putting energy toward remaking/combining biovores and pyrovores because they've sold basically none of them over the editions.

Didn't both of these units have moments in 9th edition where they were powerful, efficient choices? That period alone would have likely been enough to clear their stock.

Biovores have been "ok" at other points in earlier editions, too. They would have sold plenty throughout the years, especially during the numerous fallow periods when Tyranids weren't getting any new models and longtime Tyranid players had very little to do in the way of expanding their army other than buying the ugly bits and pieces they'd saved for last.

 Geifer wrote:
I wouldn't compliment the 2nd ed Lictor on its superior good looks either...

2nd Ed one was great. Then 3rd Ed happened and we try to forget about those. Then we got the current one, which is sleeker and nicer than the 2nd Ed one.

There was no 3rd Ed one, just to be very clear on the topic. Like ever. All pictures of a "3rd Ed Lictor" are lies.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
I wouldn't compliment the 2nd ed Lictor on its superior good looks either...

2nd Ed one was great. Then 3rd Ed happened and we try to forget about those. Then we got the current one, which is sleeker and nicer than the 2nd Ed one.

There was no 3rd Ed one, just to be very clear on the topic. Like ever. All pictures of a "3rd Ed Lictor" are lies.

There was also the Death Leaper.

Yeah, the Deathleaper was my favorite at the time and very much welcomed. Part of the reason why I'm hoping for a plastic update is that I like Lictors, but all the models have a mix of good parts and dodgy parts and I'm hoping that a plastic version will be cleaned up and combine the best parts of the various incarnations. Maybe even with little cosmetic options such as pointy claw tips that can be replaced with grabby claw tips like the Deathleaper has to give people some variety. I mean, many kits come with a ton of head options. Would be nice to have that for Tyranids as well.

Von Ryan's Leapers are a goodish sign that we might get a good looking model, but of course for now we don't even know if there will be an updated Lictor at all. Fingers crossed.

 Shadow Walker wrote:

 Shrapnelsmile wrote:

The one who made that meme probably has no problem with SM being stealthy.

When these guys walk around they are followed by a bunch of Termagants smashing coconuts against coconuts.

I love my lictor converted from a warrior, hope the size doesn't change dramatically so I can keep using him.

Haha, I think I have a "Lictor" at pretty much every scale of bug, because as mentioned above things got pretty boring there for about a decade if you were a Tyranid main, and I had nothing better to do than make a Gaunt Lictor, a Broodlord Lictor, a Tyrant Lictor, etc.

Part of me wouldn't mind if they made the wallet-unfriendly decision to make Leapers a single-build kit and then release an embiggened Lictor, because my Tyrant Lictor has been ready to go for years (and never saw a lot of use during the various "wings are best" metas):

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
I wouldn't compliment the 2nd ed Lictor on its superior good looks either...

2nd Ed one was great. Then 3rd Ed happened and we try to forget about those. Then we got the current one, which is sleeker and nicer than the 2nd Ed one.

There was no 3rd Ed one, just to be very clear on the topic. Like ever. All pictures of a "3rd Ed Lictor" are lies.

That I can agree with! The 2nd edition model was pretty fine, and the one from 4th (or 5th, wasn't around during those editions to know on top of my head) was a nice update of that model. Nothing else was release in-between them. That's a shame as I liked most of the 3rd edition Tyranids range (tho very few things can be worse than metal Gargoyles, right?).

Altruizine wrote:Haha, I think I have a "Lictor" at pretty much every scale of bug, because as mentioned above things got pretty boring there for about a decade if you were a Tyranid main, and I had nothing better to do than make a Gaunt Lictor, a Broodlord Lictor, a Tyrant Lictor, etc.

Part of me wouldn't mind if they made the wallet-unfriendly decision to make Leapers a single-build kit and then release an embiggened Lictor, because my Tyrant Lictor has been ready to go for years (and never saw a lot of use during the various "wings are best" metas):

Spoiler:

Pretty cool giant Lictor there!

Hmm.

Maybe some 2nd Ed stats would help define the wibbling of us older, sorry, Glorious Veteran folks. Because in 2nd Ed, the Lictor was pretty nasty to fight.

First? Tyranid Warrior as a base line. I won’t go into their weapons, as they’re not especially relevant to this demonstration.

Tyranid Warriors

M6, WS6, BS4, S5, T5, W2, I5, A3, Ld10

Carapace gave a 5+ save, ignored all psychology and auto passed Ld tests, passed this on to any friendly unit with 12”, and caused Fear.

Pretty nasty in their way. Main downside was their armour being pretty cack, but suffice to say even Elite infantry could struggle against them in HTH.

Lictor

M6, WS7, BS4, S6, T5, W3, I8, A4 Ld10

Acute Senses - could spot Hidden troops at wide its I value (so 16”)

Chameleon Scales - All shots at a Lictor that didn’t move suffered -1 to hit

Hiding - if a Lictor hides, it can’t be spotted, only detected. This meant you couldn’t shoot at it, except with Blast or Template weapon, and those would only hit it on a 4+

Exoskeleton - 5+ Invulnerable save. If it dodged a template it can move 2” as the Tyranid player wishes. If that doesn’t clear the template, it’s hit as normal.

Fear. GRRR GRIBBLE GRIBBLE MADE YOU BESMIRCH YOUR PANTALOONS!

Flesh Hooks. Basically a 16” range Bolter, but highly amusingly, if it hit, the target was dragged 2D6” toward the Lictor, and if brought into base to base, it’s in close combat. Could also be used for Vertical Movement if running or charging.

Leadership. It doesn’t care. Ever.

Infiltration. Is what it ever was.

Poison. Any HTH opponents wounded but not killed suffers additional wounds at the end of that combat round. Roll 1D6. For every point over the targets toughness, it suffers that many wounds (so on a T3, if they rolled a 6, 3 more wounds. Only roll once per poisoning, but can be poisoned again

So what?

Well, it was flipping nasty. It could happily Infiltrate and Hide, and just lurk there, being a pretty decent threat. Its combined WS7 and I8 gave it a pretty damned decent chance of taking on lone characters, or gubbing the typically smaller units we saw in 2nd Ed.

With a 12” charge, it could project serious board control whilst simply hiding. And any one close enough to Detect it put themselves quite comfortably into charge range - but not necessarily LoS.

The main downside is that despite its 5+ Invulnerable, if hit it was relatively squishy. Remember this is the days of even the humble Heavy Bolter dishing out D4 wounds, and up to 6 shots. But given how sneaky stealthy this beasty was? You had to either actively hunt the bugger down, or give it as wide a berth as you could.

I’d need to consult the main rulebook (which I can’t be bothered to do right now) to remind myself if you could target specific models in a squad during 2nd Ed. Part of me says you could, but I can’t say for certain if that was just a house rule, my brother lying (always a strong possibility!) or if you could, but with a modifier, provided you had legitimate LoS. But certainly my memory is of Lictors yanking higher value targets out of a unit using Fleshhooks, then giving the poor victim a Bloody Good Kicking, I’m talking “doing the Skinhead Moonstomp On Your Face” beaten up.

Oh my I forgot it could take a single Biomorph. Excuse me whilst I refresh.

Oooh. Hardened Carapace gave it a 2+ - which could never be reduced beyond 5+ on Lictor. Regenerate was of course a classic, but mostly seen on Carnifex.

Sod it, Voltage Field would be the one for me. 4+ Additonal Invulnerable, and +1 Strength. Then again, that stack might’ve been nixed with the No Double Fixed Save errata. In which case I’d got for Sharpened Claws - +2S, and counted as a psychic attack against stuff like Daemons. Daemons did not like that up ‘em.

Or Venom Sacs for D3 in HTH.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hmm.

Maybe some 2nd Ed stats would help define the wibbling of us older, sorry, Glorious Veteran folks. Because in 2nd Ed, the Lictor was pretty nasty to fight.

First? Tyranid Warrior as a base line. I won’t go into their weapons, as they’re not especially relevant to this demonstration.

Tyranid Warriors

M6, WS6, BS4, S5, T5, W2, I5, A3, Ld10

Carapace gave a 5+ save, ignored all psychology and auto passed Ld tests, passed this on to any friendly unit with 12”, and caused Fear.

Pretty nasty in their way. Main downside was their armour being pretty cack, but suffice to say even Elite infantry could struggle against them in HTH.

Lictor

M6, WS7, BS4, S6, T5, W3, I8, A4 Ld10

Acute Senses - could spot Hidden troops at wide its I value (so 16”)

Chameleon Scales - All shots at a Lictor that didn’t move suffered -1 to hit

Hiding - if a Lictor hides, it can’t be spotted, only detected. This meant you couldn’t shoot at it, except with Blast or Template weapon, and those would only hit it on a 4+

Exoskeleton - 5+ Invulnerable save. If it dodged a template it can move 2” as the Tyranid player wishes. If that doesn’t clear the template, it’s hit as normal.

Fear. GRRR GRIBBLE GRIBBLE MADE YOU BESMIRCH YOUR PANTALOONS!

Flesh Hooks. Basically a 16” range Bolter, but highly amusingly, if it hit, the target was dragged 2D6” toward the Lictor, and if brought into base to base, it’s in close combat. Could also be used for Vertical Movement if running or charging.

Leadership. It doesn’t care. Ever.

Infiltration. Is what it ever was.

Poison. Any HTH opponents wounded but not killed suffers additional wounds at the end of that combat round. Roll 1D6. For every point over the targets toughness, it suffers that many wounds (so on a T3, if they rolled a 6, 3 more wounds. Only roll once per poisoning, but can be poisoned again

So what?

Well, it was flipping nasty. It could happily Infiltrate and Hide, and just lurk there, being a pretty decent threat. Its combined WS7 and I8 gave it a pretty damned decent chance of taking on lone characters, or gubbing the typically smaller units we saw in 2nd Ed.

With a 12” charge, it could project serious board control whilst simply hiding. And any one close enough to Detect it put themselves quite comfortably into charge range - but not necessarily LoS.

The main downside is that despite its 5+ Invulnerable, if hit it was relatively squishy. Remember this is the days of even the humble Heavy Bolter dishing out D4 wounds, and up to 6 shots. But given how sneaky stealthy this beasty was? You had to either actively hunt the bugger down, or give it as wide a berth as you could.

I’d need to consult the main rulebook (which I can’t be bothered to do right now) to remind myself if you could target specific models in a squad during 2nd Ed. Part of me says you could, but I can’t say for certain if that was just a house rule, my brother lying (always a strong possibility!) or if you could, but with a modifier, provided you had legitimate LoS. But certainly my memory is of Lictors yanking higher value targets out of a unit using Fleshhooks, then giving the poor victim a Bloody Good Kicking, I’m talking “doing the Skinhead Moonstomp On Your Face” beaten up.

Oh my I forgot it could take a single Biomorph. Excuse me whilst I refresh.

Oooh. Hardened Carapace gave it a 2+ - which could never be reduced beyond 5+ on Lictor. Regenerate was of course a classic, but mostly seen on Carnifex.

Sod it, Voltage Field would be the one for me. 4+ Additonal Invulnerable, and +1 Strength. Then again, that stack might’ve been nixed with the No Double Fixed Save errata. In which case I’d got for Sharpened Claws - +2S, and counted as a psychic attack against stuff like Daemons. Daemons did not like that up ‘em.

Or Venom Sacs for D3 in HTH.

This is how I still think of a lictor, absolutely terrifying. I vaguely remember a rule about deploying it hidden that involved marking in a pice of paper which piece of terrain the lictor was hidden in and not revealing it to your opponent, making them stay away from cover and put in the open more often than not. Or am I misremembering?

You may be thinking of 3rd Ed DE Mandrakes. They had really cool deployment rules, but were sadly otherwise just running about in their Y-fronts with penknives.

That's a Lictor to me - a suped up Genestealer (WS7! A4!) with a host of special rules to make them even deadlier. They could take on high-level Marine characters solo, and were always worth bringing.

Did have a fun game where a 4th Level Terminator Librarian and a Lictor spent all game locked in combat. The Lictor would win every round, but the Terminator Armour kept the wounds away. Endless stalemate!

A Lictor, in a pinch and with just a modicum of luck could take an Assassin.

Main downside of course was no Parry. And pretty much all my characters paid points for something they could Parry with. Even if it didn’t win the combat for you, it could at least downgrade A Complete Kicking to a Mild Drubbing. Or for our American Chums, a Boo-boo to a mere Uh Oh.

In hindsight, I think against Marines I’d got for the Sharpened Claws to help dig them out their armour. Like a whelk. Even Terminator Armour didn’t like a -5 modifier. Anyone else I think I’d want the Venom Sacs for those delicious D3 wounds, as -3 was plenty against non-Terminator armours.

Hence Von Ryan’s Leapers may be the development which allows Lictors to take their rightful place as Assassin Bugs par excellence, and not something which jumps out, goes “boogada boogada” then gets its tentacle kicked down its throat by…well….pretty much anything, so far as I can tell.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You may be thinking of 3rd Ed DE Mandrakes. They had really cool deployment rules, but were sadly otherwise just running about in their Y-fronts with penknives.

No, he's thinking of 3rd edition Lictors, which were deployable into cover and were written down in advance (and which opposing units could search for).

Then in 4th they could pop out of area terrain, which was usually kind of fun, but occasionally impossible to do (or impossible to do meaningfully).

Ahh, I see. If only they were dangerous in those editions.

Yeah... what happened to Lictors in 3rd wasn't kind. They didn't even get a new miniature.

The more I talk about and brush up on 2nd Ed, the more I mourn for Formerly Deadly Units which got made all squishy and crap and armed with LARP safe weapons.

I mean, there is a middle ground to be had. I’m not demanding Banshees, as another solid example, become the “if I charge you, you’re all going to die in 3…2….1….” Unit again. But I’d still like to see them, and other overly nerfed units become Cause For Concern.

As a Guard player, I was more worried about Scorpions. Banshees were terrifying, but beating them with anyone was tough.

With Guard, you may not even get to fight thanks to those blasted Mandiblasters!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah... what happened to Lictors in 3rd wasn't kind. They didn't even get a new miniature.

A lot of them didn't get models in 3rd edition. I don't remember Tyrant Guards, Biovores or even Carnifexes. Strange...

I thought there was a 3rd edition Lictor? I know I have three versions of it, including the current one, which going by the codex art -- seen left -- was the 4th edition release.

edit: yeah, these:

http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/File:Lictor.jpg

http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/File:Third_Edition_Lictor.jpg

 Dryaktylus wrote:
A lot of them didn't get models in 3rd edition. I don't remember Tyrant Guards, Biovores or even Carnifexes. Strange...

Weird, right? You'd've thought that the edition to introduce Tyrant Guard would have included miniatures, but nope. Completely absent. And certainly not designed to be "Tyranids using Marine DNA". That'd be ludicrous!

No idea what could've happened.

 gigasnail wrote:
i love the new models, but add this one to the list of units that are going to have a harder time than they need to surviving because of the way LoS is figured now. completely behind hard cover, except an inch of claws sticking up gets them shot every time. maybe they have something like the 'can't be targeted from more than 12"', or they stop punishing good looking models on the table top in 10th. who knows.

I am yet to be convinced that the Leapers would qualify for such accommodations - I think I'll need to see them in person to make that call.

+ + +

HBMC (and others) - you seem to be suffering from some selective amnesia. I'd see a doctor about that, if I were you (and if you remember reading this post).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That's a Lictor to me - a suped up Genestealer (WS7! A4!) with a host of special rules to make them even deadlier. They could take on high-level Marine characters solo, and were always worth bringing.

Did have a fun game where a 4th Level Terminator Librarian and a Lictor spent all game locked in combat. The Lictor would win every round, but the Terminator Armour kept the wounds away. Endless stalemate!

its been my preferred image of a lictor for the last 30 years. loved them.

but then i also prefer the 2nd ed exarch to all subsequent versions.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Did have a fun game where a 4th Level Terminator Librarian and a Lictor spent all game locked in combat. The Lictor would win every round, but the Terminator Armour kept the wounds away. Endless stalemate!

I had a similar scenario in my sole game of 2nd ed. Ghazghkull Thraka and a Lictor locked in stalemate for a few turns, until it was joined by a Hive Tyrant (which still didn't quite do the job) and a Carnifex (which did).

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Well, it was flipping nasty. It could happily Infiltrate and Hide, and just lurk there, being a pretty decent threat. Its combined WS7 and I8 gave it a pretty damned decent chance of taking on lone characters, or gubbing the typically smaller units we saw in 2nd Ed.

I’d need to consult the main rulebook (which I can’t be bothered to do right now) to remind myself if you could target specific models in a squad during 2nd Ed. Part of me says you could, but I can’t say for certain if that was just a house rule, my brother lying (always a strong possibility!) or if you could, but with a modifier, provided you had legitimate LoS. But certainly my memory is of Lictors yanking higher value targets out of a unit using Fleshhooks, then giving the poor victim a Bloody Good Kicking, I’m talking “doing the Skinhead Moonstomp On Your Face” beaten up..

Don't recall shooting rules(you had to shoot at nearest unit at least) but h2h you only attacked models in b2b. So in charge 2-3 maybe. After that opponent can move 1 model into contact, rest shot away, you killed 1. If opponent didn't fail morale test killing entire squad was tricky. I have　had thirster kill surprisingly brave guardsmen 1 soldier at time. With 4 round games that wasn't too imppressive

 Dysartes wrote:
HBMC (and others) - you seem to be suffering from some selective amnesia. I'd see a doctor about that, if I were you (and if you remember reading this post).

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

 Altruizine wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You may be thinking of 3rd Ed DE Mandrakes. They had really cool deployment rules, but were sadly otherwise just running about in their Y-fronts with penknives.

No, he's thinking of 3rd edition Lictors, which were deployable into cover and were written down in advance (and which opposing units could search for).

Then in 4th they could pop out of area terrain, which was usually kind of fun, but occasionally impossible to do (or impossible to do meaningfully).

Mandrakes in 3rd Ed had you place three Mandrakes/Markers that could move around but not attack or charge and when you chose to reveal them, you picked one to be the real unit, removed the other two, and deployed the models around the one you chose.

IIRC, Catachan booby traps when using their jungle table rules had the "mark a secret map" thing like Lictors and games between Nids and Catachans using those rules could get real trap card-y.

Man, 3rd had a lot of cool ideas.

Yeah I like that take on stealth - no need to write things down on paper and keep it secret and it really lets you mess with your opponent

Even if you do have to write it down to make one the official choice so you can't change it on the fly; it can still let you do all kinds of mindgames on your opponent and make them do things that they otherwise wouldn't to avoid the potential threat

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You may be thinking of 3rd Ed DE Mandrakes. They had really cool deployment rules, but were sadly otherwise just running about in their Y-fronts with penknives.

No, he's thinking of 3rd edition Lictors, which were deployable into cover and were written down in advance (and which opposing units could search for).

Then in 4th they could pop out of area terrain, which was usually kind of fun, but occasionally impossible to do (or impossible to do meaningfully).

Mandrakes in 3rd Ed had you place three Mandrakes/Markers that could move around but not attack or charge and when you chose to reveal them, you picked one to be the real unit, removed the other two, and deployed the models around the one you chose.

Man, 3rd had a lot of cool ideas.

Yeah, and second edition had hidden deployment and equipment related to it, like Auspexes or Chameleoline cloaks. 3rd edition also had the jungle-fighting ambush rules, which were also cool.

In a good game that did not take place on the equivalent of a single supermarket parking lot, hidden movement with 'blip' markers and such would have the potential to be very fun and tactical for many armies, but 40k tables at the moment are too small and too crowded to do much with it i fear. Even transports barely make sense for actual transporting purposes.