chaos0xomega wrote:
I wonder what the venn diagram of people who love the skull are manse vs people who hate TWW Kislev looks like. It would either reveal a lot of hypocrisy or indicate a rigid segmentation amongst the community

An interesting thought indeed

What’s wrong with Kislev?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What’s wrong with Kislev?

Some people feel the TW3 Kislev army is too bear focused and too magical - IMO its very much based on the actual long time lore especially the Ice Witches.

Ahhh,

Well, sorry to ruin the venn but I like both!

Wait. Did I actually improve the venn?

I like both too, not really the point though. It's more a question of do low-fantasy kislev fans like the manse or not

Well. I guess in summary?

Anyone who attempts to harsh your mellow by confusing opinion for fact is *many, many words not allowed on Dakka, and even Fitbin, the rudest word know to man, so rude its definition was sealed in a 20’ concrete cube and dumped in the North Sea.

Technically not Fantasy/Old World, but I'd love to see them re-release the Chaos Dreadhold as a Chaos tower/fortress centerpiece. It was a early AOS release I believe, with lots of various wall sections and towers and boxset to make all kind of fortifications, but I'd settle for one box, with a big vote for the Overlord Bastion as the single boxset if it came to that (a great standalone piece on its own).

Never got any of them because I wasn't jumping into AoS at the time of release and the interest in Fantasy died down tremendously with my gaming group, so there was real no incentive to pick it up. Now though I'd love a few parts to have some really flavourful Chaos piece on the table!

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
*gassssssssssp*

Hush your collective gums!

Despite a dodgy batch of plastic glue* knackering my Skullvand Manse? There is no more Warhammer Warhammer Scenery.

It is peak Warhammer. Therefore my opinion am fact and thus you are wrong.

*also wrecked a bunch of Necrons. Instead of doing its job, it sort of crystallised, but also penetrated the plastic and so went deep. I was less happy than a very unhappy thing indeed.

It would look fine teetering on the edge of a storm-wracked cliff, but not in the middle of a WFB table, IMHO.

Well if it looks weird on a typical WHFB table.... Then that's because someone hasn't properly finished that table.

the best part of the Skullvand Manse is that you can leave the skulls aside and make it a normal building

if it would be cheap, I would use 2 with a complete bridge between and the astronomer tower as its own building

ccs wrote:
Well if it looks weird on a typical WHFB table.... Then that's because someone hasn't properly finished that table.

It's just too tall. There's blocking line of sight for units, and then there's blocking line of sight for the players.

I dislike the Skullvane Manse and the other scenery themed the same way. Even the Citadel Wood has too many skulls on it.

I don't mind the watchtowers and chapels and so on, they're a bit cartoony but overall don't look silly too me.

The Skullvane Manse is a bit too over the top for me. But I think there's room for it in the Warhammer World, and it does look like some Blanche artwork too. So you could imagine it as part of an over the top Blanche style fantasy world, which is a pretty valid way to imagine the Warhammer World of course!

But I prefer a more low-key visual style for my version, and that also extends to preferring the historical style for the miniatures. I didn't like the Demigryph cavalry much either, and I'm not particularly interested in bear cavalry or sleds riding magical ice roads.

But that's why I'm mostly doing Middle Earth stuff now. That's the aesthetic I really like - much more Dark Ages than the Warhammer World, no gunpowder weapons, no plate armour, mail and shieldwalls rule the day.

 Skywave wrote:
Technically not Fantasy/Old World, but I'd love to see them re-release the Chaos Dreadhold as a Chaos tower/fortress centerpiece. It was a early AOS release I believe, with lots of various wall sections and towers and boxset to make all kind of fortifications, but I'd settle for one box, with a big vote for the Overlord Bastion as the single boxset if it came to that (a great standalone piece on its own).

Never got any of them because I wasn't jumping into AoS at the time of release and the interest in Fantasy died down tremendously with my gaming group, so there was real no incentive to pick it up. Now though I'd love a few parts to have some really flavourful Chaos piece on the table!

A friend of mine assembled a (rage-inducing, as best as I remember) tower and wall of the Chaos fortress for the local store after AoS was released. It was one of those dreadful Chinese casts and wouldn't fit without copious amounts of putty, and of course the plastic wouldn't take plastic cement and required superglue or similar to assemble. And the price GW set was hilarious.

Not sure it's something we should wish to return in the form it was sold back then. Maybe as a remaster cast by GW themselves.

It would end up as an AoS release though, what with GW's mortal, albeit inconsistent fear of cross game model lines. Wouldn't make a difference to the customers, of course, but I don't think GW is currently interested in doing much with terrain in AoS. Or 40k for that matter. Seems like non-mainline games are the ones that get most of the terrain love.

 Da Boss wrote:
... too many skulls...

This phrase is ungrammatical. Please don't mistreat the English language like that.

 Geifer wrote:

 Skywave wrote:
Technically not Fantasy/Old World, but I'd love to see them re-release the Chaos Dreadhold as a Chaos tower/fortress centerpiece. It was a early AOS release I believe, with lots of various wall sections and towers and boxset to make all kind of fortifications, but I'd settle for one box, with a big vote for the Overlord Bastion as the single boxset if it came to that (a great standalone piece on its own).

Never got any of them because I wasn't jumping into AoS at the time of release and the interest in Fantasy died down tremendously with my gaming group, so there was real no incentive to pick it up. Now though I'd love a few parts to have some really flavourful Chaos piece on the table!

A friend of mine assembled a (rage-inducing, as best as I remember) tower and wall of the Chaos fortress for the local store after AoS was released. It was one of those dreadful Chinese casts and wouldn't fit without copious amounts of putty, and of course the plastic wouldn't take plastic cement and required superglue or similar to assemble. And the price GW set was hilarious.
.

Apparently the assembly difficulty was exacerbated by the thing being covered in sharp spikes that literally extracted a tribute to Khorne whilst trying to stop the thing falling apart as the glue set...

 Shakalooloo wrote:

ccs wrote:
Well if it looks weird on a typical WHFB table.... Then that's because someone hasn't properly finished that table.

It's just too tall. There's blocking line of sight for units, and then there's blocking line of sight for the players.

This non-problem is easily solved by simply taking a few steps as need be....

I just want a Skullvane Manse to turn into a 40k defense laser, because honestly is that any less plausible a use of it?

chaos0xomega wrote:
I like both too, not really the point though. It's more a question of do low-fantasy kislev fans like the manse or not

NuKislev is guff and the manse is excellent. Is this one of these things where you think you have some really clever gotcha when really you've just failed to understand other people's reasoning? Because the problem people have with NuKislev is not that it has fantasy stuff in it, it's the *quantity and concentration* of fantasy stuff and the laziness of the theming. The setting has crazy fantasy stuff in it, there's a whole mountain that looks like a skull, probably Because Magic, but until every Imperial cottage is a thatched skull, all the State Troops units wear skull face helmets with skull breastplates, and they introduce Empire Chariots that comprise a levitating giant skull pulled by two slightly smaller levitating giant skulls as a mainstream part of the Empire's armies, pretending one whacky building kit that's specifically meant to represent an outlier is equivalent to the bear-bear-ice-beary-icebears of NuKislev - and this somehow makes people who dislike the latter hypocrites - is just transparently disingenuous.

ccs wrote:

 Shakalooloo wrote:

ccs wrote:
Well if it looks weird on a typical WHFB table.... Then that's because someone hasn't properly finished that table.

It's just too tall. There's blocking line of sight for units, and then there's blocking line of sight for the players.

This non-problem is easily solved by simply taking a few steps as need be....

I didn't get into wargaming to start having to EXERCISE!!!

 YodhrinsForge wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I like both too, not really the point though. It's more a question of do low-fantasy kislev fans like the manse or not

NuKislev is guff and the manse is excellent. Is this one of these things where you think you have some really clever gotcha when really you've just failed to understand other people's reasoning? Because the problem people have with NuKislev is not that it has fantasy stuff in it, it's the *quantity and concentration* of fantasy stuff and the laziness of the theming. The setting has crazy fantasy stuff in it, there's a whole mountain that looks like a skull, probably Because Magic, but until every Imperial cottage is a thatched skull, all the State Troops units wear skull face helmets with skull breastplates, and they introduce Empire Chariots that comprise a levitating giant skull pulled by two slightly smaller levitating giant skulls as a mainstream part of the Empire's armies, pretending one whacky building kit that's specifically meant to represent an outlier is equivalent to the bear-bear-ice-beary-icebears of NuKislev - and this somehow makes people who dislike the latter hypocrites - is just transparently disingenuous.

if anything is disingenuous, it's trying to extrapolate "there are bears and ice witches" to the extreme you're insisting on. WHF was always a high fantasy setting, because that's where the demons, orcs, dragons, halflings, monty python references riding pegasi, atlantis elves, and lizards riding lizards all come from. are humans riding bears really that much more absurd than lizards riding lizards?

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:


if anything is disingenuous, it's trying to extrapolate "there are bears and ice witches" to the extreme you're insisting on. WHF was always a high fantasy setting, because that's where the demons, orcs, dragons, halflings, monty python references riding pegasi, atlantis elves, and lizards riding lizards all come from. are humans riding bears really that much more absurd than lizards riding lizards?

And speaking about scenery(ish) I just remembered the Storm of Magic expansion with those weird proto endless spells you could use to raise the wizard to a secure place of power.
I dont see how they would fit those in the setting of TOW, but the ones I bought I cut up for other projects, so I would not mind seeing those on sale again.

Storm of Magic was nifty. But you really had to find players who were ready to lean into the “mad wizards drunk on power” aesthetic. I found far too many “historical wahammer” types who thought the whole thing was an abomination and, worse, wanted to loudly share that opinion with anyone that looked like they might be using more than two dice on a spell.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Shakalooloo wrote:

ccs wrote:
Well if it looks weird on a typical WHFB table.... Then that's because someone hasn't properly finished that table.

It's just too tall. There's blocking line of sight for units, and then there's blocking line of sight for the players.

This non-problem is easily solved by simply taking a few steps as need be....

I didn't get into wargaming to start having to EXERCISE!!!

If you're too lazy to walk about the table.... Then you deserve to not see what's hiding behind the terrain & thus any losses you'll suffer are your own fault.

Really tall terrain completely changes the gameplay experience, and not really even mechanically, just the visual experience.

Last week I watched a pair of Middle Earth players using store scenery that been made to represent redwoods. A table full of about 8-10 giant 4" diameter tree trunks made from paper mache that rose almost two feet off of the table before ending at a flat top that represented the tree continuing on.

We've also played Battletech Alpha Strike games there that used lots of open space, but we like to use terrain representing rocky cliffs that were between 8" and 1.5 feet tall that mechs have to wind their way amongst, because they are too tall to be functionally cross-able.

I feel like lots of rank n' flank gamers commonly play on mostly clear green soccer fields speckled with a rock outcropping or two (or a single hill) and maybe a couple of 6" diameter forests.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Really tall terrain completely changes the gameplay experience, and not really even mechanically, just the visual experience.

Last week I watched a pair of Middle Earth players using store scenery that been made to represent redwoods. A table full of about 8-10 giant 4" diameter tree trunks made from paper mache that rose almost two feet off of the table before ending at a flat top that represented the tree continuing on.

We've also played Battletech Alpha Strike games there that used lots of open space, but we like to use terrain representing rocky cliffs that were between 8" and 1.5 feet tall that mechs have to wind their way amongst, because they are too tall to be functionally cross-able.

I feel like lots of rank n' flank gamers commonly play on mostly clear green soccer fields speckled with a rock outcropping or two (or a single hill) and maybe a couple of 6 diameter forests.

I think historically, such battles generally were fought on open fields, especially if cavalry was involved.

The last batch of made to order Dwarfs are coming next weekend, as well as the pre-order of the Warriors of Chaos!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/08/25/sunday-preview-machines-wage-civil-war-on-mars-and-chaos-hordes-descend-from-the-north/

Can’t wait for Warriors!!!

Dragon Ogre Shaggoth is listed as returning in plastic?

It's an error, it's coming in resin. A typo from the WarCom team.
It was confirmed as resin in the almanack preview.

Looking forward to the Nova preview now, wonder what will be next on the cards.

I hope the NOVA preview has models and isn’t just a roadmap presentation

Have the prices for the MTO dwarfs dropped yet?

I don't know, we generally know which factions are next. Showing off brand new models rather than just returning would be cool of course, but more than anything I would love to see a roadmap that lets us know what they have planned for The Old World besides Arcane Journals.

Gimmie some kind of narrative book.

 GaroRobe wrote:

Have the prices for the MTO dwarfs dropped yet?

Made-to-order models are Direct Only and their prices are not usually available in advance.

Warriors of Chaos wave 1 and Dwarf MTO at the same weekend will cause 2D6 Mortal Wounds to my wallet, that is for sure.

Only AOS and blood bowl model reveals at NOVA

 GaroRobe wrote:
I hope the NOVA preview has models and isn’t just a roadmap presentation

Have the prices for the MTO dwarfs dropped yet?

The article literally says it’s a roadmap update for TOW: the actual presentation is for AoS and Blood Bowl.

I'm hoping the giant chaos spawn rules will let me use my slaughterbrute as a proxy! Hopefully its wounds and toughness will be suitable.

Guess the warpfire dragon is wave 2?

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:
I hope the NOVA preview has models and isn’t just a roadmap presentation

Have the prices for the MTO dwarfs dropped yet?

The article literally says it’s a roadmap update for TOW: the actual presentation is for AoS and Blood Bowl.

As relevant actual information goes, I don't hate a roadmap for TOW. Any new or very old sculpts returning will be a pleasant surprise later on, but the Chaos release has now shown that it's perfectly possible for a re-release wave to be pretty bare bones, and we have seen enough so far to know that the broad formula is "most recent release of a set that is not used in AoS". I.e., just knowing the faction gives us a good idea of what sets to expect.

Had a look if there were even many former WHFB kits left in AoS these days, or if there will be a few more odd re-releases of older models (like the Nigh Goblins and Giant) because the most recent WHFB ones are still taken by AoS.
For High Elves, that shouldn't be a problem, as I'm not sure if any of their kits are left in AoS anymore - none that I can see at least.
Wood Elves have mostly disappeared over the years too, but the plastic treeman (from 8th) and dryads (6th edition) are still in the Sylvaneth. Could see GW re-release the metal 6th ed treeman instead (the Forces of Fantasy book allows for base sizes matching both the 8th and 6th versions), but not sure how they'd handle the dryads - the same plastics were used in 6th-8th, and the prior metal ones are stylistically very different. Does anyone know if they're pictured in the book at all?
Empire has a few more plastics still in use in AoS, with Cities of Sigmar featuring the wizards, griffon, steam tank, hurricanum/luminark and flagellants.

I suppose the former WHFB models since purged from AoS (like the Wood Elves previously in Cities of Sigmar) have just been quietly removed from successive army lists over editions or so? All things considered, there are only a handful of kits left (for forces set to return to WHFB at the moment), so in theory some could be replaced in AoS with new sets (for similar, if not the same unit) still, or dropped from those ranges depending on what role they fulfill in those armies.

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:
I hope the NOVA preview has models and isn’t just a roadmap presentation

Have the prices for the MTO dwarfs dropped yet?

The article literally says it’s a roadmap update for TOW: the actual presentation is for AoS and Blood Bowl.

As relevant actual information goes, I don't hate a roadmap for TOW. Any new or very old sculpts returning will be a pleasant surprise later on, but the Chaos release has now shown that it's perfectly possible for a re-release wave to be pretty bare bones, and we have seen enough so far to know that the broad formula is "most recent release of a set that is not used in AoS". I.e., just knowing the faction gives us a good idea of what sets to expect.

Had a look if there were even many former WHFB kits left in AoS these days, or if there will be a few more odd re-releases of older models (like the Nigh Goblins and Giant) because the most recent WHFB ones are still taken by AoS.
For High Elves, that shouldn't be a problem, as I'm not sure if any of their kits are left in AoS anymore - none that I can see at least.
Wood Elves have mostly disappeared over the years too, but the plastic treeman (from 8th) and dryads (6th edition) are still in the Sylvaneth. Could see GW re-release the metal 6th ed treeman instead (the Forces of Fantasy book allows for base sizes matching both the 8th and 6th versions), but not sure how they'd handle the dryads - the same plastics were used in 6th-8th, and the prior metal ones are stylistically very different. Does anyone know if they're pictured in the book at all?
Empire has a few more plastics still in use in AoS, with Cities of Sigmar featuring the wizards, griffon, steam tank, hurricanum/luminark and flagellants.

I suppose the former WHFB models since purged from AoS (like the Wood Elves previously in Cities of Sigmar) have just been quietly removed from successive army lists over editions or so? All things considered, there are only a handful of kits left (for forces set to return to WHFB at the moment), so in theory some could be replaced in AoS with new sets (for similar, if not the same unit) still, or dropped from those ranges depending on what role they fulfill in those armies.

I don't mind a roadmap myself. But then I'm not really too worried about TOW itself and just been treating it as if it was one big made to order run for WFB. A roadmap would let me continue to plan purchases going forward as I'm still buying quite a lot of second hand and alternative kits for WFB, especially for things like dogs of war or other armies that might not see a return. I'd be able to pause on picking anything up that might be coming back sooner to avoid over paying for some of those rarer items that might randomly appear on the made to orders (Though so far, I've been a pretty good judge on whats been returning and what hasn't and only been stung for over paying a couple of € for some of the plastic night goblins that I honestly never saw coming back)

I think they showed off the metal dryads in one of the facebook/WarComm posts a while back for wood elves, rather than the plastic ones. I'd say we are likely to see the metal ones return and a new set released for AoS when they get their 4th Ed AoS update to separate the forces completely. We might see the plastic kit 're-released' then for TOW once its removed, a bit like the recent dwarf sets.

So the warriors of chaos are definitely more of an undivided faction at this point. That explains the lack of juggerknights, seekers, etc.

I dunno if I’m crazy about the idea of the tribes and warriors largely being unfamiliar with the big four. Scylla is confirmed to still be a human at this time but I’m pretty sure he openly worshiped khorne

It's pretty common lore all over that many worshippers of Chaos have no idea its Chaos. That Chaos Greater Demons will often pose as other deities and latch onto local traditions in order to twist and turn them to their own ideals.

There used to be plenty of scope for both approaches, it’s a shame one of them has been hampered, albeit it only slightly in real game terms.

 Overread wrote:
It's pretty common lore all over that many worshippers of Chaos have no idea its Chaos. That Chaos Greater Demons will often pose as other deities and latch onto local traditions in order to twist and turn them to their own ideals.

That’s sort of the idea behind a lot of the warcry warbands

I still wish they’d allow for more god specific armies and units as well. I’m not sure if they’re not included because of the god specific AOS factions but that’s likely the reason

 GaroRobe wrote:
So the warriors of chaos are definitely more of an undivided faction at this point. That explains the lack of juggerknights, seekers, etc.

I dunno if I’m crazy about the idea of the tribes and warriors largely being unfamiliar with the big four. Scylla is confirmed to still be a human at this time but I’m pretty sure he openly worshiped khorne

Norscans, at least, don't call the gods by their names iirc.

But Norscans realize they are worshipping Chaos right?

Apologies in advance if this is an ignorant question but compared to where we are at in the setting right now, how far off is the Siege of Praag in terms of years? Seems like a significant event made more so by the failure of the 11th everchosen (which I didn't know and just learned).

Norscans and the other tribesmen worship their gods who are rivals to the gods of the south. Just as the majority of the Empire worships their gods (Sigmar etc.) who oppose the gods of the north. Both sides think they’re right.

Ultimately only a very, very few people, mostly elves and wizards, know enough about the greater conflict to even name the sides chaos and order.

We get an omniscient overview that only the Slann in-setting even begin to approach having.

Can't say I particularly like the idea that the 4 gods aren't particularly prominent at this time. Feels like retrospectively trying to work in the fact that AOS has made them more independent. I've got no issue with Norscans not understanding that the Carrion Crow is a Chaos God, in fact it's quite narratively complex and realistic from an anthropological/religious perspective, but not having god specific units in Chaos armies is a bit meh. You can have the 4 gods being prominent while still being subservient to a Undivided whole, it's how WHFB often did it. If I was being somewhat cynical, I'd suggest that the de-emphasising of the individual gods was done to reduce the scope of relaunching Chaos Warriors, back when TOW had the previously refrenced smaller scope.

Likewise I really dislike the continued pushing in articles that Archaon was always fated to destroy the Old World. Bleugh. I hope that doesn't leak more into the lore sections of the books, other than the couple throwaway sentences in the core rulebook. I know why they're doing it, it's probably corporate mandate to make it clear that AOS will happen and nothing is changing - if not corporate mandate than internal mandate for consistency purposes, but I still hate it.

I do like them expanding upon Asavar Kul's rise to power though. I had assumed Frydaal was going to be Valkia. It's interesting to have a whole new character to look into and fairly strongly hints that we're going to see a number of lesser Chaos characters emerge as the storyline develops.

Since Norsca wasn't really defined in the foundational lore of 4th edition, it's really just been a 'make it up as you go, who really cares,' situation done in the post-foundational lore. I think an actual civilization would have been a neat idea, but like pretty much everything from the late 90s forward it got dumbed up and Norscans are a bunch of savage tribesmen knowingly or unknowingly worshipping Chaos and basically sitting around doing nothing all day except wanting to appear in a game of Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

 nathan2004 wrote:
But Norscans realize they are worshipping Chaos right?

Apologies in advance if this is an ignorant question but compared to where we are at in the setting right now, how far off is the Siege of Praag in terms of years? Seems like a significant event made more so by the failure of the 11th everchosen (which I didn't know and just learned).

About 30 years off, but game time won't flow linearly. The same designers stated in a previous article that the narrative will not progress sequentially forward in time and that they intend to hop backwards to events that happened earlier in the TOW time period (which is a roughly 100 year span of time) and in between. They refer to the Siege of Praag as TOWs Siege of Terra moment, HH has jumped around the chronology a lot over the past decade +, even briefly covering some events that occurred during or shortly after the Siege of Terra, but not the Siehe of Twrra itself. I would take that as the model that TOW will likely follow. Expect to see Kul become playable, events that happened around the events of Praag to be featured, but they will dance around the actual topic of the Siege itself for a long long time.

 Londinium wrote:
If I was being somewhat cynical, I'd suggest that the de-emphasising of the individual gods was done to reduce the scope of relaunching Chaos Warriors, back when TOW had the previously refrenced smaller scope.

The only aligned units pre-End Times were the Skullcrushers and Hellstriders, both of which are mortals mounted on Daemonic steeds and this period has established that Daemons aren't a thing.
So a total of two whole units not available to the faction doesn't seem particularly damning.

Likewise I really dislike the continued pushing in articles that Archaon was always fated to destroy the Old World.

I'm pretty sure Archaon was always fated to bring about the End Times. Actually, no, I'm sure of it because there's a whole prophecy about him, which he reads and then becomes the Everchosen. So you're annoyed that for once GW is actually being consistent with it's background. The irony of it all.

Oh, how I despise the idea of the Everchosen. So GW's idea to differentiate the Old World hordes of Chaos from the AoS ones is to drain all the Chaotic loveliness of the the Big Four and double down on 'evil vikings'?

That article was very funny to me:

You know Asavar Kul right? Yeah, he's awesome, but you won't be seeing him for some time! (This bit is perfectly understandable)

You know all the cool lords that are Kul's lieutenants and that you've seen or heard of before right? Engra, Valnir, Arbaal, Scyla in his human form.....

...yeah you're not (yet) seeing them (return) either.

Instead we will give you one lacky of a lacky of Asavar Kul.

..and we won't give you a model for her either.

...and the four different Chaos god flavours you like so much? Mostly gone for good measure!

Enjoy!

Way to temper enthusiasm there GW!

Lots of "new shiny things" stuff is bound to be OW 2.0 stuff. Who knows we might see things like unique new chaos demon models and other stuff come out then.

It's very clear that internally Gw management wants AoS and OW to be fully separate product lines (as much as they can) and OW right now is running on old stuff first. In theory the first new things should be Kislev and Cathay, though we've no idea if GW will do them against each other or if they'll spread them out and pitch them against other forces and bits of the narrative

Do we think Asavar Kul will get a model I wonder?

*Edited to remove fake road map I thought was leaked from Nova

 nathan2004 wrote:
Do we think Asavar Kul will get a model I wonder?

Why is anyone still posting this fake trash 'roadmap'? Even if you only saw it posted online and didn't know the source (the fact its not a clear picture from WarCom being the biggest give away) the fact that the order of the releases so far is completely wrong already shows its fake.

My bad thought it was leaked from Nova. Guess we will find out tomorrow.

that thing was a fan made possible roadmap posted a year ago before the first army was released, everyone would have seen that one at least once by now

for Asava Kul, WarCom says there will be no model anytime soon, so why should we think that there will be one

JWh85 wrote:
That article was very funny to me:

You know Asavar Kul right? Yeah, he's awesome, but you won't be seeing him for some time! (This bit is perfectly understandable)

You know all the cool lords that are Kul's lieutenants and that you've seen or heard of before right? Engra, Valnir, Arbaal, Scyla in his human form.....

...yeah you're not (yet) seeing them (return) either.

Instead we will give you one lacky of a lacky of Asavar Kul.

..and we won't give you a model for her either.

...and the four different Chaos god flavours you like so much? Mostly gone for good measure!

Enjoy!

Way to temper enthusiasm there GW!

It makes a lot more sense when you think of it in the context of Horus Heresy. In that situation they had decades of background material to work with and lots of familiar characters + some (relatively) new ones to work with as part of the narrative development of the game and setting. We didn't get Horus right out the gate with that game and a lot of what we did get was slow burn build up to the bigger characters we were all hoping for.

In this case, TOW is a mostly blank slate. It doesn't (yet) have a meandering long term novel series exploring particular events and detailing countless characters personal histories. The studio is making all that up as they go. It makes sense that they are going to be featuring the third rate never before seen characters first, because the characters we have heard of are mostly few and far between and have specific defined roles that need to be played, there's a lot less flexibility there and once you introduce them there's not a lot you can do with them other than have them play their parts, and often moving the spotlight off them at that point to lesser characters is seen as a distraction or filler by most audiences.

Basically it'd a slow burn buildup to the big show.

I'm fine with a slow buildup for now even though I'm still miffed we didn't get a single new anything with this release. But if they don't eventually make a model of Engra Deathsword to match that iconic cover art, they're insane

chaos0xomega wrote:

JWh85 wrote:
That article was very funny to me:

You know Asavar Kul right? Yeah, he's awesome, but you won't be seeing him for some time! (This bit is perfectly understandable)

You know all the cool lords that are Kul's lieutenants and that you've seen or heard of before right? Engra, Valnir, Arbaal, Scyla in his human form.....

...yeah you're not (yet) seeing them (return) either.

Instead we will give you one lacky of a lacky of Asavar Kul.

..and we won't give you a model for her either.

...and the four different Chaos god flavours you like so much? Mostly gone for good measure!

Enjoy!

Way to temper enthusiasm there GW!

It makes a lot more sense when you think of it in the context of Horus Heresy. In that situation they had decades of background material to work with and lots of familiar characters + some (relatively) new ones to work with as part of the narrative development of the game and setting. We didn't get Horus right out the gate with that game and a lot of what we did get was slow burn build up to the bigger characters we were all hoping for.

In this case, TOW is a mostly blank slate. It doesn't (yet) have a meandering long term novel series exploring particular events and detailing countless characters personal histories. The studio is making all that up as they go. It makes sense that they are going to be featuring the third rate never before seen characters first, because the characters we have heard of are mostly few and far between and have specific defined roles that need to be played, there's a lot less flexibility there and once you introduce them there's not a lot you can do with them other than have them play their parts, and often moving the spotlight off them at that point to lesser characters is seen as a distraction or filler by most audiences.

Basically it'd a slow burn buildup to the big show.

Yes and no - there is a huge novel series which does detail many many characters - so no the studio is not making new stuff up for the most part - its adding some bits and pieces but alot is already there as is mentioned in the WC article. There are dozens if not hundreds Elves, Undead, Lizardmen and other who are thousands of years old who can make appearances as cameos - then there are plenty of dwarfs who are hundreds of years old - and have appeared in their Arcane Journal as the TK did in theirs.

Its only really the human nations that lack these for the most part

Is it too late to say I'm dissapointed there was no Egrim von Horstman?

My personal frustration with Chaos in The Old World is that it's all one big Undivided family, yet you can still apply Marks to your characters and units. And the characters and units care enough about their Marks that they won't intermingle with other Marks. And while daemons aren't a thing, your characters can ride daemonic mounts, but not any of the God-specific mounts because... reasons?

I just want my Discs back, Change damn it!

 triplegrim wrote:
Is it too late to say I'm dissapointed there was no Egrim von Horstman?

Well he is not around in this period - He only joined the Light Order as an apprentice in 2504 IC !!

 Gert wrote:

 Londinium wrote:
If I was being somewhat cynical, I'd suggest that the de-emphasising of the individual gods was done to reduce the scope of relaunching Chaos Warriors, back when TOW had the previously refrenced smaller scope.

The only aligned units pre-End Times were the Skullcrushers and Hellstriders, both of which are mortals mounted on Daemonic steeds and this period has established that Daemons aren't a thing.
So a total of two whole units not available to the faction doesn't seem particularly damning.

Likewise I really dislike the continued pushing in articles that Archaon was always fated to destroy the Old World.

I'm pretty sure Archaon was always fated to bring about the End Times. Actually, no, I'm sure of it because there's a whole prophecy about him, which he reads and then becomes the Everchosen. So you're annoyed that for once GW is actually being consistent with its background. The irony of it all.

Prophesies don’t have to come true, in fact prophesies failing to come true or something happening which is ironic and no one expected but meets the prophesy on a technicality have been tropes in literature for thousands of years. Just because we have background information prophesising Archaon was going to lead the end of the world doesn’t mean that he actually was. Asavar Kul probably had similar prophesies floating around about him and he failed. All sorts of things are said about various Warhammer characters in Army books and novels that we know to be incorrect or propaganda, that kind of muddying of the water is that makes interesting characters and scenarios.

The fact that GW ran campaigns to decide the fate of the Old World shows that from a meta perspective they had never actually decided that Archaon was always going to win. That’s just something they’ve retrospectively added in to make it clear that AOS will happen. Which is kind of an odd decision and I’d have just like the grogs be able to pretend that in their own little pocket section of the GW world, that the End Times could be avoided.

I wonder if taking a less-differentiated approach to Chaos Gods and Daemons will lead to GW having a dual range across HH and TOW in the same way the original concepts pull dual duty across the main systems.

Doubtful - but clever. I for one would support such a move.

Prophesies don’t have to come true, in fact prophesies failing to come true or something happening which is ironic and no one expected but meets the prophesy on a technicality have been tropes in literature for thousands of years. Just because we have background information prophesising Archaon was going to lead the end of the world doesn’t mean that he actually was. Asavar Kul probably had similar prophesies floating around about him and he failed. All sorts of things are said about various Warhammer characters in Army books and novels that we know to be incorrect or propaganda, that kind of muddying of the water is that makes interesting characters and scenarios.

The fact that GW ran campaigns to decide the fate of the Old World shows that from a meta perspective they had never actually decided that Archaon was always going to win. That’s just something they’ve retrospectively added in to make it clear that AOS will happen. Which is kind of an odd decision and I’d have just like the grogs be able to pretend that in their own little pocket section of the GW world, that the End Times could be avoided.

Exaclty.

Look what happened during 6th ed: the Storm of Chaos campaign, where Archaon fails and is defeated by Grimgor. And then they retconned everything anyways, like it never happened.

 Londinium wrote:

 Gert wrote:

 Londinium wrote:
If I was being somewhat cynical, I'd suggest that the de-emphasising of the individual gods was done to reduce the scope of relaunching Chaos Warriors, back when TOW had the previously refrenced smaller scope.

The only aligned units pre-End Times were the Skullcrushers and Hellstriders, both of which are mortals mounted on Daemonic steeds and this period has established that Daemons aren't a thing.
So a total of two whole units not available to the faction doesn't seem particularly damning.

Likewise I really dislike the continued pushing in articles that Archaon was always fated to destroy the Old World.

I'm pretty sure Archaon was always fated to bring about the End Times. Actually, no, I'm sure of it because there's a whole prophecy about him, which he reads and then becomes the Everchosen. So you're annoyed that for once GW is actually being consistent with its background. The irony of it all.

Prophesies don’t have to come true, in fact prophesies failing to come true or something happening which is ironic and no one expected but meets the prophesy on a technicality have been tropes in literature for thousands of years. Just because we have background information prophesising Archaon was going to lead the end of the world doesn’t mean that he actually was. Asavar Kul probably had similar prophesies floating around about him and he failed. All sorts of things are said about various Warhammer characters in Army books and novels that we know to be incorrect or propaganda, that kind of muddying of the water is that makes interesting characters and scenarios.

The fact that GW ran campaigns to decide the fate of the Old World shows that from a meta perspective they had never actually decided that Archaon was always going to win. That’s just something they’ve retrospectively added in to make it clear that AOS will happen. Which is kind of an odd decision and I’d have just like the grogs be able to pretend that in their own little pocket section of the GW world, that the End Times could be avoided.

Indeed and the lore is that there are many many alternatives where Archaeon is never born, dies young, is killed, never turns - and Belakor has to keep tweaking them to get the universe where this happens.

There is a number of quotes in ET and AOS that talk about alt realities - and of course Bloodbowl is another official universe....

So again, Archaon was going to become the Everchosen and plans were enacted to ensure this path would be followed.
Sure sounds like Archaon was fated to become the Everchosen that would destroy the world.


From an Out of Universe perspective I'm sure the grand plan didn't include GW having bad sales for WHFB and having the panic decision to destroy the world but that's what happened.
The Imperium will eventually fall in the 40k universe, the Aeldari will die out, etc but 40k has yet to suffer the failings of WHFB and likely never will so we'll never see that.

I’d argue 40K more enjoyed a strength that Fantasy didn’t.

40K? Is a vast sandbox. You can have a campaign, official or otherwise, shatter a system and the rest of the galaxy will barely notice.

Fantasy? Only the one world. And losing a city or two just doesn’t feel especially apocalyptic.

Warhammer Fantasy worked as a Fantasy game, but 40K worked best as a setting.

on a narrative level, if you have a prophecy that is related to a major character, then the prophecy needs to be relevant. if the prophecy says he's going to destroy the world, then at the very least he's going to try

furthermore, it's a setting with magic, and while i know people really like to downplay the high fantasy elements of the setting, that very much is a factor here. so it's not just that it's a prophecy, but a magical one. even if WHFB didn't end, they were still going to do something with it someday, because that's how narrative setup and payoff works

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
on a narrative level, if you have a prophecy that is related to a major character, then the prophecy needs to be relevant. if the prophecy says he's going to destroy the world, then at the very least he's going to try

furthermore, it's a setting with magic, and while i know people really like to downplay the high fantasy elements of the setting, that very much is a factor here. so it's not just that it's a prophecy, but a magical one. even if WHFB didn't end, they were still going to do something with it someday, because that's how narrative setup and payoff works

Narratives don't have to pay off if they are there as a backdrop though. All that stuff was part of the "5 minutes to midnight" setting, which was the backdrop for your own stories and characters.

Of course, the risk is that GW might not resist developing that narrative and cashing in, which tends to undermine it as a setting hook. Which is what the End Times and the Fall of Cadia narratives were.

Now I'm wondering what the venn diagram of folks who dislike nuKislev but hate TOW chaos being subtle, less overt, less daemonic, less magical, etc. looks like

And yeah, agreed. For all the talk about how much people hate the "the end times were always going to happen" schtick and the apparent newfound insistence that that is a retcon, the old lore was always pretty clear that Archaon as the 13th Everchosen was destined and prophesied to bring ruin or doom or what have you to the world. I don't recall if it ever per se involved the actual destruction of the planet but in retrospect that's a fairly logical conclusion. It certainly didn't mean that he was just going to sack Praag and Altdorf for the umpteenth time and then head home. It didn't mean he was going to fetch up the elves in ukthuan and call it a day. The only way that prophecy works is if every other faction is functionally destroyed as a functioning polity, organization, society, culture, and civilization. In the case the alternative to what GW did would basically be a post apocalyptic mad max esque warhammer setting that probably looks more like necromunda less like whfb proper.

Isn't that pretty much Mordheim, except the entire world?

 Londinium wrote:
-snip-

Prophesies don’t have to come true, in fact prophesies failing to come true or something happening which is ironic and no one expected but meets the prophesy on a technicality have been tropes in literature for thousands of years. Just because we have background information prophesising Archaon was going to lead the end of the world doesn’t mean that he actually was. Asavar Kul probably had similar prophesies floating around about him and he failed. All sorts of things are said about various Warhammer characters in Army books and novels that we know to be incorrect or propaganda, that kind of muddying of the water is that makes interesting characters and scenarios.

The fact that GW ran campaigns to decide the fate of the Old World shows that from a meta perspective they had never actually decided that Archaon was always going to win. That’s just something they’ve retrospectively added in to make it clear that AOS will happen. Which is kind of an odd decision and I’d have just like the grogs be able to pretend that in their own little pocket section of the GW world, that the End Times could be avoided.

Bolded by me.

Anyone can still pretend whatever they want in their own corner of the Warhammer universes.

What has happened?
Can people no longer create their own personal stories without GW bashing down the door and carrying them to prison for it?
There is enough fanfic in the world to prove that isn't true.

 skrulnik wrote:

What has happened?
Can people no longer create their own personal stories without GW bashing down the door and carrying them to prison for it?
There is enough fanfic in the world to prove that isn't true.

well, some of us are around long enough to have lived during that time were GW actually tried to do that, were posting fan-fiction or pictures of painted models on the internet was something they wanted to be gone and and tried legal actions against forums that allowed that

 kodos wrote:

 skrulnik wrote:

What has happened?
Can people no longer create their own personal stories without GW bashing down the door and carrying them to prison for it?
There is enough fanfic in the world to prove that isn't true.

well, some of us are around long enough to have lived during that time were GW actually tried to do that, were posting fan-fiction or pictures of painted models on the internet was something they wanted to be gone and and tried legal actions against forums that allowed that

Simple solution- don't shout about what you are doing all across the internet and wave it in front of GWs face.

Way back before 3d printing was a common household thing, I've seen some really dumb people flaunt things (that shouldn't be spoken about here), which in part helped ruin an underground hobby of 'pipe cleaner models' for Epic 40k (If you know, you know). Like these models once were, these things just don't need to be flaunted on the internet for GW to see.

Sure, its nice to share the hobby with others. But if GW are going to send the warhammer police crashing down through your door and knocking over your Skullvane Manse to stop you posting about your 'alternative End times' where Archaon spontaneously combusts at the last moment after a vision of fantasy space marines whelms him, then perhaps just don't share it on instagram with the tags #checkmeoutjamesworkshop #lookatmeKevinDRountree #Notmytwothincoats

I really never have understood the need to so lead by GW. Sure they are the ones putting the books & fiction out, but nothing says you have to buy or live by it. Use the models how you like and skip over the fluff.

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
on a narrative level, if you have a prophecy that is related to a major character, then the prophecy needs to be relevant. if the prophecy says he's going to destroy the world, then at the very least he's going to try

It has to be relevant, it doesn't have to be true or even apply to the person you think it does. Look at Game of Thrones with Azor Ahai and the Prince That Was Promised. Stannis gets a lot of narrative benefit from the former but it's fairly likely that he is not Azor Ahai.

 Mallo wrote:
Simple solution- don't shout about what you are doing all across the internet and wave it in front of GWs face.

yeah, Old World would look much different it we would just remove all the social media content and youtube videos about it
I think you don't understand what GW was up to on the past about those things, there is a reason the cult of officialdom is so strong around Warhammer nowadays

frankelee wrote:Since Norsca wasn't really defined in the foundational lore of 4th edition, it's really just been a 'make it up as you go, who really cares,' situation done in the post-foundational lore. I think an actual civilization would have been a neat idea, but like pretty much everything from the late 90s forward it got dumbed up and Norscans are a bunch of savage tribesmen knowingly or unknowingly worshipping Chaos and basically sitting around doing nothing all day except wanting to appear in a game of Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

They don't just sit around all day. Sometimes they play Blood Bowl.

Yeah, have to agree, constantly bringing up that the world will be ended by Archaon anyway feels unnecessary. Both grating for anyone still somewhat sore about the whole End Times thing, and just... pointless? Imagine if Warlord Games, in advertising their Punic Wars game, would include lines referencing that "Scipio's victory over Hannibal at Zama was eventually insignificant as the Western Roman Empire would fall 678 years later regardless". Like, why? What is achieved by mentioning it? We know - but it's irrelevant in a setting for the game, especially in a setting hundreds of years in the past.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’d argue 40K more enjoyed a strength that Fantasy didn’t.

40K? Is a vast sandbox. You can have a campaign, official or otherwise, shatter a system and the rest of the galaxy will barely notice.

Fantasy? Only the one world. And losing a city or two just doesn’t feel especially apocalyptic.

Warhammer Fantasy worked as a Fantasy game, but 40K worked best as a setting.

I'd phrase it more as Warhammer Fantasy worked as a setting, but 40k works better as a developing narrative (though the latter also with limitations on how many planets and important characters you are willing to actually sacrifice, and for how long you can keep doing/not doing that...).
And for much of the time, I did not have the impression Warhammer Fantasy was an ongoing narrative. At some point, Storm of Chaos happened, was incorporated in the lore somewhat, then slowly phased out and ignored. Otherwise, army books were about describing the status quo and the past, not working towards some future. People play historical wargames without the need to have a changing narrative. People play MESBG without the expectation of a changing narrative. People have been playing Mordheim for two and a half decades, largely in a very limited and static setting in single city in Warhammer Fantasy, without needing a developing narrative. The setting creates flavour as a backdrop for your armies and games, no story progression is needed. Perhaps ongoing narratives help create opportunities for GW to make new models to sell, but just as easy to just retcon the past and pretend new units have always been there, as still happens all the time anyway...

Empire followed by high elves. Sounds like war wagons are coming back for empire too based on the warcom article

Presumably followed by beasts and wood elves before we get to “other factions” or did they forget they already published the army lists for those factions?

 nathan2004 wrote:
Empire followed by high elves. Sounds like war wagons are coming back for empire too based on the warcom article

I don't see that reference in the article, but man I wish to see it return and being able pick one (or two!)

Edit: Oh yeah, last sentence

Guess I'm banning myself from any more empire stuff til next year. Here's hoping empire archers/huntsman kit are in the first wave because those dang minis are so hard to find lol.

I just want Empire Militia, do I ask for too much?

yes,

for something different, Chaos was released faster than the other armies, without the 3 month waiting time between preview and preorder

but if the next army is in 2025 the question is why, as it makes no sense to speed things up just to extend the waiting time for the next army
like 3 months waiting for Chaos pre-order, the week after Empire preview, 3 months waiting and pre-order/release in January
now we get either wait months for the preview or the time between the preview and preorder is >3 months

Were Dwarfs and WoC released earlier than intended? That roadmap says they're still to come.

Sathrut wrote:
Were Dwarfs and WoC released earlier than intended? That roadmap says they're still to come.

Dwarfs have a MtO release ahead of them, and all of the WoC stuff is yet to go on pre-order as well. The fact we know it is coming does not make it suddenly have happened already. The roadmap is technically correct.

Empire next in 2025, Highelves officially delayed but after Empire

Chaos released earlier than expected by us as not the previous 3 months delay, which brings up the question why.
As doing them faster just increase the time to the next release.

So might just be they need the capacity for the Lord of the Rings release and therefore the metal and resin casting must be free from other (TOW) orders

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I just want Empire Militia, do I ask for too much?

Gotta get those Mordheim kits!

 Darnok wrote:

Sathrut wrote:
Were Dwarfs and WoC released earlier than intended? That roadmap says they're still to come.

Dwarfs have a MtO release ahead of them, and all of the WoC stuff is yet to go on pre-order as well. The fact we know it is coming does not make it suddenly have happened already. The roadmap is technically correct.

While true, the text for Dwarfs sound like they're talking about the entire faction: "Dwarfen Mountain Holds take to the field of battle once more". On the accompanying picture they show the Anvil of Doom and a Chaos Lord and Hell Cannon; the former is already out and the latter are soon to be released.

I could be reading too much into it, but it seems odd to say "Dwarfen Mountain Holds taking to the field" show an iconic mini for the faction (that's already released) instead of something from the second wave.

We also miss some Units and Options for the relased Factions like Khemri, Bretonnia, Greenskins and Dwarfs I guess?

Considering they've also been stripping the FW models from 40K recently (eldar just lost almost most of theirs) it might also be that OW is doing way better than they envisioned and the FW team is having to up production to deal with demand. This might explain the gap; it might be breathing room. It could also just be that other things have pushed in here and there and then you've got hte big Christmas Rush and OW might have just pulled the short straw at not getting a big production slot in that time.

 triplegrim wrote:
Is it too late to say I'm dissapointed there was no Egrim von Horstman?

He's not alive in the game's timeline. He won't be born for another 150 years or so.

I just wish they'd release his Dragons left arm again, so I can make mine whole again :(

He's got to be alive at this time right?!

Egrimm was a former Light wizard, which means his rise to power is likely dependent on the Colleges being founded first. That won't happen for a few decades in-universe. Its possible that he's alive at this time, but he's unlikely to be very significant and definitely won't be a Chaos worshipper.

 Overread wrote:
Considering they've also been stripping the FW models from 40K recently (eldar just lost almost most of theirs) it might also be that OW is doing way better than they envisioned and the FW team is having to up production to deal with demand. This might explain the gap; it might be breathing room. It could also just be that other things have pushed in here and there and then you've got hte big Christmas Rush and OW might have just pulled the short straw at not getting a big production slot in that time.

This was my theory as well, but not just with the FW models but to give all of GW a bit of breathing room to catch up on production.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Considering they've also been stripping the FW models from 40K recently (eldar just lost almost most of theirs) it might also be that OW is doing way better than they envisioned and the FW team is having to up production to deal with demand. This might explain the gap; it might be breathing room. It could also just be that other things have pushed in here and there and then you've got hte big Christmas Rush and OW might have just pulled the short straw at not getting a big production slot in that time.

This was my theory as well, but not just with the FW models but to give all of GW a bit of breathing room to catch up on production.

Yeah and its not a bad move honestly. If that lets get get production in hand, esp overseas supplies, then that's a boon for us all. GW has been going insane with releases and we've honestly grown used to a super-fast release process.

Now granted the 3-year life-cycle of codex/battletomes has also directly fed into this and makes the problem worse and is fully GW's own making. They could shift to 6 year lifespans or such for editions and rules (lets face it its not the rules we get those big boxed launch editions for - its cool sculpts and lots of discounted models)

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/08/29/old-world-almanack-opening-the-forbidden-arcane-journal-warriors-of-chaos/

Confirmed Galrauch is coming back in metal and not resin and sounds like the new character, Frydaal, will be in resin at some point after first wave. Guess I'll be pinning him - wish they brought back the Emperor Chaos Dragon I could use to proxy for Galrauch instead.

 Scottywan82 wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I just want Empire Militia, do I ask for too much?

Gotta get those Mordheim kits!

You mean circa 2001 Inquisition Warbands!

Has anyone seen price lists for the WOC release?

chaos0xomega wrote:
Has anyone seen price lists for the WOC release?

How much have you got?

Bout tree-fiddy

chaos0xomega wrote:
Has anyone seen price lists for the WOC release?

Well guess that confirms most of the range is online only? No dragon ogres or chimera even though they're plastic.

Awww boo.

From todays article

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/08/30/old-world-almanack-rules-for-the-rules-gods/

The Warpfire Dragon is another returning Warhammer Forge miniature available for the Warriors of Chaos Grand Army, bringing yet more monstrous destructive energy to the battlefield. We don’t have any plans to bring back the War Mammoth currently, however.

And not specific lists for Gods as in this period it is all about is undivided Chaos (not like in the End Times were the Everchosen was all about the different gods)

but at least they want to progress the story line with more journals, so maybe we get a 2nd and 3rd Chaos journal with the gods list from a different time period

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Awww boo.

From todays article

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/08/30/old-world-almanack-rules-for-the-rules-gods/

The Warpfire Dragon is another returning Warhammer Forge miniature available for the Warriors of Chaos Grand Army, bringing yet more monstrous destructive energy to the battlefield. We don’t have any plans to bring back the War Mammoth currently, however.

There was a rumour from the Square Based podcast a while ago that's because they are doing a plastic War Mammoth.

Though I do wonder if that's because it would move to Norsica rather than Warriors of Chaos.

Well there’s also the small issue of the original War Mammoth mould and master both being damaged, according to rumour a while back anyway.

Mozzamanx wrote:
Egrimm was a former Light wizard, which means his rise to power is likely dependent on the Colleges being founded first. That won't happen for a few decades in-universe. Its possible that he's alive at this time, but he's unlikely to be very significant and definitely won't be a Chaos worshipper.

As I mentioned earlier he is not around in this period - He only joined the Light Order as an apprentice in 2504 IC !

 nathan2004 wrote:

Confirmed Galrauch is coming back in metal and not resin

The chance to get these old kits in metal again is the best thing about TOW for me. I was too young and poor to buy them all before they got Finecasted, and I've been waiting patiently for 10+ years.

As listed on the NZ website, the plastic Chaos Sorcerer on foot is virtually double the price of the plastic Chaos Lord on foot. Wonder if that's an error because if not that's just baffling

Oof.

160AUD for the Dwarf Lord five-pack, so $80 for them.

I get that its under $20 for each model but still

Couple of positive surprises from Warriors of Chaos release:

Warpfire Dragon £52
Chaos Trolls and Chaos Ogres £28

I wish Ushabti were £28 rather than £55!

Dang, that Dragon Ogre Shaggoth. Still as excellent as the day it was originally released. What a sculpt.

 Marshal Loss wrote:
As listed on the NZ website, the plastic Chaos Sorcerer on foot is virtually double the price of the plastic Chaos Lord on foot. Wonder if that's an error because if not that's just baffling

Yeah, that's an odd one - they're the exact same price in €. That said, they are almost exactly double the price of the metal Champion...

 GaroRobe wrote:
Oof.

160AUD for the Dwarf Lord five-pack, so $80 for them.

I get that its under $20 for each model but still

Yeah - I want 2 of them but I think thats a bit much...I would have bought them individually for a bit more per model too but for a bundle it seems expensive..

So the mounted theme list is kinda lame. You get 0-1 chariot as core and 0-1 chosen chariot per 1k pts

Man the prices are all over the place here, some are surprising to me like Chaos Trolls and the Warpfire Dragon in that they are lower than I expected. Then there is the Manticore and Chimera, which were 62.5$ and 45$ just a week ago - exact same kits and everything as far as I'm aware.

I found a pair of the old chimera discounted off the 45 price and scooped them up this morning. Already have the bases, so all good to go.

Might get that Dwarf Lord pack, I like them all even though some of them are pretty similar to each other.

 kurhanik wrote:
Man the prices are all over the place here, some are surprising to me like Chaos Trolls and the Warpfire Dragon in that they are lower than I expected. Then there is the Manticore and Chimera, which were 62.5$ and 45$ just a week ago - exact same kits and everything as far as I'm aware.

Yeah, I'm shocked the warpfire dragon is so "reasonable."

And then, for the same cost, five old metal chosen command models...

Does anyone remember how much Warpfire Dragon was when it was released? I tried to look up the archived page but I can't get past the cookie pop up. Also lol at the plastic Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount being twice the price of the metal one.

Something like £45 if I recall right.

I think this is the first arcane journal which feels a bit lackluster to me apart from the whole 'mostly undivided and no new models' thing.

Wolves of the Sea is mostly ok, but the marauders suffer from being some of the oldest plastic kits....hamhands galore there. Also, i love the skinwolves, but who thought it was a good idea to only let them be used in the Wolves of the Sea???

Heralds of darkness feels a bit boring to be honest; not really much to be excited about in that list.

The Great Spawn and Warpfire are awesome, no complaints there.

The two characters are one forgetable character without a model and one great character with a horrible old model (still have nightmares from putting it together back in the day; only Zacharias the Everliving i remember less fondly in that department). To me that's not the greatest selection considering the amount of cool Champions of Chaos to choose from.

All in all, it's ok. Just that.

Frydaal is a new model just not released with the book...

For 330 points you can ally in a Sea Wolves contingent into a grand army that includes a marauder chieftain on horseback with a cavalry spear and shield (with ambushers built in), 5 Huscarls with heavy armor and flails, and 3 Skin Wolves. I'd say that's pretty amazing! You could also throw in a Gigantic spawn with the Mark of Khorne if you were feeling really spicy.

I get what you're saying here but I think there are some really good options here. The Heralds of Darkness does feel like a bit of a miss.

Big problem with heralds of darkness is that it doesn't fundamentally really change anything. Knights are already core and people are already building their grand army lists around them because warriors are kinda lame. Chariots aren't that much more accessible (taking 1 as a core choice doesn't do much) and the chosen chariot is only kinda OK. The special rules associated are also very meh in general and on the while its just not that exciting of an army list. Personally I had hoped for chariots to be 0-2 core per unit of knights and gorebeast chariots to move into special from rare. It's a minor thing but c9mpletely changes how you build the list

Good call ^

JWh85 wrote:

Wolves of the Sea is mostly ok, but the marauders suffer from being some of the oldest plastic kits....hamhands galore there.

Luckily there are more marauder models (i.e. Darkoath)...

JWh85 wrote:

Also, i love the skinwolves, but who thought it was a good idea to only let them be used in the Wolves of the Sea???

Someone with a great respect for the lore, as werewolves are exclusively a Norsca thing in the fluff.

SU-152 wrote:

JWh85 wrote:

Wolves of the Sea is mostly ok, but the marauders suffer from being some of the oldest plastic kits....hamhands galore there.

Luckily there are more marauder models (i.e. Darkoath)...

JWh85 wrote:

Also, i love the skinwolves, but who thought it was a good idea to only let them be used in the Wolves of the Sea???

Someone with a great respect for the lore, as werewolves are exclusively a Norsca thing in the fluff.

Well not exclusively - there are others including the children of Ulric in the forests of the Empire.

SU-152 wrote:

JWh85 wrote:

Also, i love the skinwolves, but who thought it was a good idea to only let them be used in the Wolves of the Sea???

Someone with a great respect for the lore, as werewolves are exclusively a Norsca thing in the fluff.

That's not been true since Monstrous Arcanum invented Skin Wolves. Their predecessor, Ulfwerener, may well have been Norse-exclusive. However Skin Wolves are found across all Northmen and their fluff blurb specifically calls out Kurgan and Hung.

https://youtu.be/LtBUgG6yYZw?si=VgFgMXTySvfzpzfC

Content is already included in old world builder too so get to building lol.

Mozzamanx wrote:

SU-152 wrote:

JWh85 wrote:

Also, i love the skinwolves, but who thought it was a good idea to only let them be used in the Wolves of the Sea???

Someone with a great respect for the lore, as werewolves are exclusively a Norsca thing in the fluff.

That's not been true since Monstrous Arcanum invented Skin Wolves. Their predecessor, Ulfwerener, may well have been Norse-exclusive. However Skin Wolves are found across all Northmen and their fluff blurb specifically calls out Kurgan and Hung.

What's Monstrous Arcanum? a retcon during 8th?

chaos0xomega wrote:
Big problem with heralds of darkness is that it doesn't fundamentally really change anything. Knights are already core and people are already building their grand army lists around them because warriors are kinda lame. Chariots aren't that much more accessible (taking 1 as a core choice doesn't do much) and the chosen chariot is only kinda OK. The special rules associated are also very meh in general and on the while its just not that exciting of an army list. Personally I had hoped for chariots to be 0-2 core per unit of knights and gorebeast chariots to move into special from rare. It's a minor thing but c9mpletely changes how you build the list

Who'd have thought fething around with the profile of chaos warriors so that only chosen have the profile of chaos warriors of the past would've resulted in a lack of... chaos warriors in chaos warriors armies...so we are back at the ooopps all cavalry/ mostly cavalry.

Sea raiders looks awesome but honestly they didn't go far enough: Ruleswise why do we only get the tribes elite on horses, like hung and mung nvm that shortbows for those marauders still don't exist? Why not foot huscarls?
Modelwise and that is more pressing: it's the old marauders and they just don't look good, they didn't look good in the 90s, nvm the 00s and early 10s. Which reminds me, has anyone seen any decent viking alternative for Marauders?

Not Online!!! wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Big problem with heralds of darkness is that it doesn't fundamentally really change anything. Knights are already core and people are already building their grand army lists around them because warriors are kinda lame. Chariots aren't that much more accessible (taking 1 as a core choice doesn't do much) and the chosen chariot is only kinda OK. The special rules associated are also very meh in general and on the while its just not that exciting of an army list. Personally I had hoped for chariots to be 0-2 core per unit of knights and gorebeast chariots to move into special from rare. It's a minor thing but c9mpletely changes how you build the list

Who'd have thought fething around with the profile of chaos warriors so that only chosen have the profile of chaos warriors of the past would've resulted in a lack of... chaos warriors in chaos warriors armies...so we are back at the ooopps all cavalry/ mostly cavalry.

Sea raiders looks awesome but honestly they didn't go far enough: Ruleswise why do we only get the tribes elite on horses, like hung and mung nvm that shortbows for those marauders still don't exist? Why not foot huscarls?
Modelwise and that is more pressing: it's the old marauders and they just don't look good, they didn't look good in the 90s, nvm the 00s and early 10s. Which reminds me, has anyone seen any decent viking alternative for Marauders?

Frostgrave Barbarians would be a good place to start IMO.

SU-152 wrote:
What's Monstrous Arcanum? a retcon during 8th?

everything was retconned during 8th, but this was one if the book released by ForgeWorld

Not Online!!! wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Big problem with heralds of darkness is that it doesn't fundamentally really change anything. Knights are already core and people are already building their grand army lists around them because warriors are kinda lame. Chariots aren't that much more accessible (taking 1 as a core choice doesn't do much) and the chosen chariot is only kinda OK. The special rules associated are also very meh in general and on the while its just not that exciting of an army list. Personally I had hoped for chariots to be 0-2 core per unit of knights and gorebeast chariots to move into special from rare. It's a minor thing but c9mpletely changes how you build the list

Who'd have thought fething around with the profile of chaos warriors so that only chosen have the profile of chaos warriors of the past would've resulted in a lack of... chaos warriors in chaos warriors armies...so we are back at the ooopps all cavalry/ mostly cavalry.

Sea raiders looks awesome but honestly they didn't go far enough: Ruleswise why do we only get the tribes elite on horses, like hung and mung nvm that shortbows for those marauders still don't exist? Why not foot huscarls?
Modelwise and that is more pressing: it's the old marauders and they just don't look good, they didn't look good in the 90s, nvm the 00s and early 10s. Which reminds me, has anyone seen any decent viking alternative for Marauders?

The issue is less the stat profile of Chaos Warriors and more the fact that infantry are outclassed by cavalry and monsters in the ruleset imo. Every race that can is using much more cavalty than infantry, and those who lack cavalry are some of the weakest races in the ruleset.

Yes, the lack of "step up" or whatever really hurts infantry. Being able to attack across your whole frontage doesn't seem to be enough of an offset, that or too many people are sticking to narrow frontage builds like they are still playing 6th edition where units were usually 4 or 5 wide max.

Not Online!!! wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Big problem with heralds of darkness is that it doesn't fundamentally really change anything. Knights are already core and people are already building their grand army lists around them because warriors are kinda lame. Chariots aren't that much more accessible (taking 1 as a core choice doesn't do much) and the chosen chariot is only kinda OK. The special rules associated are also very meh in general and on the while its just not that exciting of an army list. Personally I had hoped for chariots to be 0-2 core per unit of knights and gorebeast chariots to move into special from rare. It's a minor thing but c9mpletely changes how you build the list

Who'd have thought fething around with the profile of chaos warriors so that only chosen have the profile of chaos warriors of the past would've resulted in a lack of... chaos warriors in chaos warriors armies...so we are back at the ooopps all cavalry/ mostly cavalry.

Sea raiders looks awesome but honestly they didn't go far enough: Ruleswise why do we only get the tribes elite on horses, like hung and mung nvm that shortbows for those marauders still don't exist? Why not foot huscarls?
Modelwise and that is more pressing: it's the old marauders and they just don't look good, they didn't look good in the 90s, nvm the 00s and early 10s. Which reminds me, has anyone seen any decent viking alternative for Marauders?

Excellent point - the Arcane Journals are better than they could have been but nowhere near as good as they could be in terms of new unit diversity and army styles/ characters

That's one thing I find frustrating w the arcane journals is that a lot of what they add is more of the same. Tomb guard chariots, chosen chariots, yeomen guard, etc are mostly just more of the same, an existing unit w a minor Stat buff rather than something that fills a hole in the roster (unlike say the Siege bombard or warpfire dragon, etc).

Maybe because filling holes in the rosters isn't the point?

chaos0xomega wrote:
That's one thing I find frustrating w the arcane journals is that a lot of what they add is more of the same. Tomb guard chariots, chosen chariots, yeomen guard, etc are mostly just more of the same, an existing unit w a minor Stat buff rather than something that fills a hole in the roster (unlike say the Siege bombard or warpfire dragon, etc).

I agree, though i think that both O&G armies of infamy certainly shake the grand army up, especially the troll horde. Ungrim's Royal Clan also does things really differently from the Dwarf Grand Army. The Wolves of the Sea is also quite cool and different.

So I agree, they could take it further, but i really like the variation some lists offer.

The new Skaven preorders are up:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/09/07/saturday-pre-orders-the-skaventide-thickens/

This spearhead has several things that weren't in the big box. Warp lightning cannon vs blaster, old style Grey Seer. I wonder if you can build the Stormfiends more like regular Rat-Ogres.
I really like the new Poisoned Wind Globadiers, and the Jezzails. Just about everything is great looking, I've just never been a big fan of Clan Pestilens.

The new Skaven are just solid IMO. Not as great as the Flesheater Courts. That army release was just fantastic i thought and I find Ushoran one of the best models GW has ever made (it really stretched my detail-fatique, but that's my pet peeve about more recent AOS sculpts). Next to those these models are fine, but they are not as mindblowing as 7th edition skaven release. That refresh was mindblowing. Queek and Ikit Claw are still two of my favorite models ever.

Earlier this year I sold off all my "started and never built more than a clanrat" collection of skaven in plastic and metals. The only model I did not sell was Ikit Claw in metal because its still a freaking awesome sculpt.

Everything else went including 5 wolfrats (mostly because I know chances are GW will never re-release them and if they do they'll look wildly different so I was never going to get a full squad); a bunch of metals and other stuff.

You guys seem confused, this is an old world thread, not an AoS thread.

As I was saying I'm thinking I might actually start printing the Last Sword models soon for my Brets - if GW could get one of the Handmaiden of the Lady models in resin in stock that would be good too.

Got a coupon to spend on that!

chaos0xomega wrote:
You guys seem confused, this is an old world thread, not an AoS thread.

You don't know half of the happiness that comment gives me; that we are actually able to talk about a GW supported Warhammer game (and despite some problems like dragons and weak infantry one of the best editions yet ruleswise i think).

I never made the transition to AOS because the 'everything warhammer but dialed up to 11' skirmish game was not for me.

 Overread wrote:
As I was saying I'm thinking I might actually start printing the Last Sword models soon for my Brets - if GW could get one of the Handmaiden of the Lady models in resin in stock that would be good too.

Got a coupon to spend on that!

They were in stock on the UK site a couple days ago. Check often - I've noticed the UK site seems to update it's inventory late afternoon early evening in US eastern time like 4-6pm-ish or so 9-11pm UK time. Not consistently, but I checked around lunchtime Wednesday and everything was out of stock, and on a lark I checked again around 5pm and was surprised to see they had restocked the enchantress and bsb

Yeah I try and check as often as I can for stuff, I also used the remind-me email thing

I don't think the email notifications work

They "used" to work on the previous site.

It would not surprise me if they don't work on the current one

They do… sort of. There’s an occasional glitch where the email gets sent out before the item goes live on the site, which is weird.

There's also the occasional glitch where you get notifications for the wrong country.

Considering the site asks me to select my country almost every time I look at it ... that one doesn't surprise me

chaos0xomega wrote:
You guys seem confused, this is an old world thread, not an AoS thread.

And almost all of the new Skaven releases will work just fine in The Old World. Don't even need a "counts as".

Notifications have never worked for me. By now I've bought all the new model that I wanted, but all of them by checking the website often. Only once did i get a noticification for one of the models and that was after a few hours when they were already gone again.

 SgtEeveell wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
You guys seem confused, this is an old world thread, not an AoS thread.

And almost all of the new Skaven releases will work just fine in The Old World. Don't even need a "counts as".

Some very welcome updates to the range also from a TOW perspective for sure, though also a few changes that make cross-compatibility a bit trickier, which will presumably get increasingly difficult as AoS moves away from TOW (assuming Skaven won't be featured properly there any time soon).

Some things of note: Plaguepack could provide a Plague Priest and/or counts as a Censer Bearer unit; unfortunately not a practial source for a full new-look Plague Monk unit, and Censer Bearers are not otherwise available at the moment.
Stormvermin no longer have shields provided. Looks like they could rank up on TOW's 25mm bases potentially, though probably not in any configuration - good time to number some bases!
Clanrats have moulded-on shields and barely any spears (and the ones they have are tiny).
Can confirm Jezzails should fit on 25x50 bases (I've assembled mine on individual 25mm bases per rat, so same idea).
Ratling Gun/Warpfire Thrower look similar enough, so would expect them to also fit on 25x50. Unfortunately no Poisoned Wind Mortars and the Warp Grinder is far too big, but perhaps the new "Warpvolt Scourgers" could proxy as the latter (since they also have some pointy warpstone bits on the front). Difficult to say how wide the Doom-flayers are, but they at least have a limited contact point to the base, so perhaps flexible...
Rat Ogres are on 50x50, so size-wise perfect for TOW. Now of course come without Packmasters - or Giant Rats. But at least they finally have decent looking multipart models!

 SgtEeveell wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
You guys seem confused, this is an old world thread, not an AoS thread.

And almost all of the new Skaven releases will work just fine in The Old World. Don't even need a "counts as".

Until you look at the prices and realize how much it'll cost you. The best thing about TOW is the general affordability of it. $84 for 32 chaos warriors... or I can spend $200 (really $250) for the same number of AoS minis.

And here I am buying Skaven for Kings of War

Honestly pretty happy with how far my money goes there, of course with multibasing being the norm I can use 3 Jezzails on a 5-wide base, etc, maybe throw one of my many Island of Blood Engineers on the base as an officer to fill some space. My only regret is that some very good GW models don't have a KoW profile they could reasonably represent.

Which ones?

I thought they'd changed the web store listings so that "The Old World" was moved under "more games"? It seems it has its own thing next to 40k and AOS once again.

Yeah it keeps moving back n forth it seems

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah it keeps moving back n forth it seems

I'm imagining the different design teams alternately sneaking in and bribing the web guys to hide and unhide it, since they're so keen on segregating the profits of the two games

I think it's more likely the marketing and branding coffins are having a tough time figuring out how they want to position the games that aren't 40k/AoS on the market.

Made to order chaos coming up next weekend

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/09/08/sunday-preview-a-soupcon-of-chaos-in-the-old-world/

Gonna get me a Daemon Prince with sword and a Spawn for sure!

boyd wrote:

Zenithfleet wrote:


For comparison, in the Bretonnian MTO I didn't place my order until the last few days of the window, and it took two months to arrive.

I'm still waiting to receive mine. I ordered min on Monday so day 3 of the made to order window and it's been more than 3 months. I've only ordered 2 items via made to order and both have taken 4+ months to arrive. I ordered Rogue Trader 10 minutes after it went online for sale and it still took just over 4 months. I don't have the luck to get stuff quickly and I think the US gets their items after the U.K. Just because it's easier to produce and ship things locally.

I got my Bretonians on 8/25. Kept reaching out to Customer Service for an update because I got the on day 208 instead of 190. Still got them though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Skywave wrote:
Made to order chaos coming up next weekend

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/09/08/sunday-preview-a-soupcon-of-chaos-in-the-old-world/

Gonna get me a Daemon Prince with sword and a Spawn for sure!

I'm getting 2 spawn and the Prince with the Axe. I was hoping for Azazel, Arbaal, or VanHorstmann. I've wanted the spawn though for a good 20 years.

Can’t wait to get the Metal Daemon Prince with claw that goes on preorder this Saturday!

chaos0xomega wrote:
I think it's more likely the marketing and branding coffins are having a tough time figuring out how they want to position the games that aren't 40k/AoS on the market.

might just be that the one game with recent new releases/pre-orders is moved up

I could (price dependant) have been persuaded by a Prince, but the one I already have is a mixture of parts from these two, and I'd rather not duplicate him.

boyd wrote:

 Skywave wrote:
Made to order chaos coming up next weekend

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/09/08/sunday-preview-a-soupcon-of-chaos-in-the-old-world/

Gonna get me a Daemon Prince with sword and a Spawn for sure!

I'm getting 2 spawn and the Prince with the Axe. I was hoping for Azazel, Arbaal, or VanHorstmann. I've wanted the spawn though for a good 20 years.

The Spawn is such a fun model. I got mine around ten years ago when my local store auctioned off a box that had refused to sell.

Poor Stumpy had such a hard life. First he sat alone and unloved on a shelf, and when he finally found a home those stupid Skinks tried to murder him over and over and over like there wasn't any other target in my army. The fiends!

I do find it a bit strange that the made to order for chaos is mostly for units that are not otherwise available, and haven't had their old plastic kits announced to be returning at some point. (Unless I have missed the WarComm notice)

I'm glad to be able to pick up the Daemon Princes and I don't have that specific spawn either, but had really expected the chaos MTO to have been for perhaps some of the marauder era chaos stuff to tie in with the undivided faction lore they have gone with this time round.

No offence, but you need to be really hooked on nostalgia to appreciate that spawn and the daemon princes today.

For some reason I had (well, still have in the attic) both those princes just with the weapons swapped around. Im just confused why, because I didnt play chaos back then, and didnt have the funds to buy stuff like that. Weird.

I think the Spawn is good - give it a different paintjob than the studio and It will still look decent. The Demon Princes are a classic style taste. Some will like them some won't for me they are up there with the early dragons in that they are designs that I can see elements of them I like, but the overall sculpt and proportions just don't work for me at all.

Now that Chaos Sorcerer on the other hand I "might" go for

"We have Nazgul at home" sorcerer is pretty ok.

The metal spawn was worse when it came out than the previous metal spawn it replaced ( https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:ChaosSpawn1998.jpeg )

Ohh that one is very "The Thing" gnarly!

I had one of those. Then it got raided for conversion parts. Then I didn't have a Spawn miniature anymore. Conclusion: it serves its purpose as a Spawn poorly. That makes Stumpy the superior Spawn model.

 Geifer wrote:
I had one of those. Then it got raided for conversion parts. Then I didn't have a Spawn miniature anymore. Conclusion: it serves its purpose as a Spawn poorly. That makes Stumpy the superior Spawn model.

Yeah, I'm not sure anyone used that Spawn for anything other than as a conversion bits pack. I bought two and never actually used them as Spawn.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
I had one of those. Then it got raided for conversion parts. Then I didn't have a Spawn miniature anymore. Conclusion: it serves its purpose as a Spawn poorly. That makes Stumpy the superior Spawn model.

Yeah, I'm not sure anyone used that Spawn for anything other than as a conversion bits pack. I bought two and never actually used them as Spawn.

I think I still have the body somewhere – I recall using the heads for something but stuck a chaos knight torso on the neck joint instead, as though some unlucky knight champion and his unluckier horse got fused. Might still be in the Big Bitz Box.

Saying that, I actually like the intermediate one. Yeah the picture is a bit naff but once again that’s due to GW somehow picking the worst possible angle to photograph it from. The extended mouth is actually a distended and warped human mouth; you can see what’s left of the guy’s skull/face on the top of the body.

I love the old metal Chaos Spawns. I think I still have five or six of them. My biggest complaint was that I could only two at time in most games.

I even converted one for 40K in case one of my Iron Warriors characters got screwed over by an Eye of the Gods roll:



I got one box of the plastic ones and used the excess bits to bling up my old metal ones

I agree that the metal spawn in the MTO holds up well.

But having all the spawn models in the same force is equally reasonable. By their very nature every spawn is different.

 Haighus wrote:
But having all the spawn models in the same force is equally reasonable. By their very nature every spawn is different.

But they convert so easily, that they're like potato chips (you can't have just one)

 Fayric wrote:
No offence, but you need to be really hooked on nostalgia to appreciate that spawn and the daemon princes today.

For some reason I had (well, still have in the attic) both those princes just with the weapons swapped around. Im just confused why, because I didnt play chaos back then, and didnt have the funds to buy stuff like that. Weird.

I agree. The sword one is like one of the ugliest models GW ever made

I got the spawn model a couple of years ago and haven't gotten around to paint it, yet. I think mine misses one leg/tentacle, looking at it
The model itself is fine, proper body horror, as you can see remains of the warped guy in some places.

 xeen wrote:
I agree. The sword one is like one of the ugliest models GW ever made

Don't Listen to him Derpulies The Mighty! You're beautiful with your giant hands and barely fitting metal wings, and we all know it!

My first Golden Daemon entry in '98 was a Cthulhu made from that model with a metal lictor head

 xeen wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
No offence, but you need to be really hooked on nostalgia to appreciate that spawn and the daemon princes today.

For some reason I had (well, still have in the attic) both those princes just with the weapons swapped around. Im just confused why, because I didnt play chaos back then, and didnt have the funds to buy stuff like that. Weird.

I agree. The sword one is like one of the ugliest models GW ever made

I also agree....out of all the models from Chaos ranges past that they could have made mto, this (very small) selection is very underwhelming.....

I wish the MTO Spawn included the rare metal base, I already have the Spawn but not the base.

 Skywave wrote:
Made to order chaos coming up next weekend

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/09/08/sunday-preview-a-soupcon-of-chaos-in-the-old-world/

Gonna get me a Daemon Prince with sword and a Spawn for sure!

Hmm. I passed on these ugly things when they were new. They're still ugly & I'll pass again.

The three-armed prince with the axe (who I think may have been a named character) served as the base for one of my earliest conversions:

 xeen wrote:
The sword one is like one of the ugliest models GW ever made

Not by a long shot. There were so many far worse sculpts than a generic devil-daemon with large hands and static pose it would take hours to post them all.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
The three-armed prince with the axe (who I think may have been a named character) served as the base for one of my earliest conversions

It wasn't a special character. In fact those two daemon princes are actually the same - just two examples how to build them with the bits. All of them are interchangeable, just the wings are the same.

 Skywave wrote:
Made to order chaos coming up next weekend

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/09/08/sunday-preview-a-soupcon-of-chaos-in-the-old-world/

Gonna get me a Daemon Prince with sword and a Spawn for sure!

Aren't those finecast?

Do you guys think such will be remade with plastic kit? I've noticed loads of metal and finecast -old- units thrown into the gw store under old world, I don't understand this much as often its not even mentioned in the description what material the units are in (so I just guess its probably finecast -_-)

Really not liking the disposessed>mountain holds and aos chaos>ow chaos conversion, that makes me have to rebase a gigantic flippin owned army now..

In general if they were finecast last time they were on sale they'll either come back as metal, or as forgeworld resin

this won't have the totally awful casting quality a lot of the finecast stuff had (so far fewer bubbles, holes and missing bits)

for this made to order it says 'All of these miniatures are made from metal' in the description

GW has pretty much stripped finecast from production.

I think the Icefall Yhetees, Skullmaster, Herald of Khorne on Juggernaut and Sammael are the only things on the store left listed with being made in finecast.

At least when searching for it (it also throws up a bunch of other models that have nothing to do with finecast so its probably also then doing fine and cast as search terms)



Otherwise Finecast is gone. GW is prepared to go back to metals or use regular resin instead of finecast. Finecast never worked right and pinged way more support tickets than normal because of its bubbling, mould damage and other issues. Honestly I was surprised GW stuck with it as long as they did when so many people would outright avoid it.

 Overread wrote:
GW has pretty much stripped finecast from production.

I think the Icefall Yhetees, Skullmaster, Herald of Khorne on Juggernaut and Sammael are the only things on the store left listed with being made in finecast.

At least when searching for it (it also throws up a bunch of other models that have nothing to do with finecast so its probably also then doing fine and cast as search terms)



Otherwise Finecast is gone. GW is prepared to go back to metals or use regular resin instead of finecast. Finecast never worked right and pinged way more support tickets than normal because of its bubbling, mould damage and other issues. Honestly I was surprised GW stuck with it as long as they did when so many people would outright avoid it.

Yeah I've also returned orders for instance the cockatrice and the jabberwock, which are awesome sculpts especially the latter but unworkable.

I can't say I enjoy any resin either, its too unreadible to clean (residu)

I wound up with 3 Cockatrice and then gave up - all had the same bubbling error in the same spot. Granted I can hide it as it was low in the coils so it can be terrain hidden and GW were good at sending replacements.

But yeah when you've a kit that has to be replaced multiple times and still has the same error (because it likely impacted a whole production batch); that's just not a material that works for either party.

 Overread wrote:
GW has pretty much stripped finecast from production.

I think the Icefall Yhetees, Skullmaster, Herald of Khorne on Juggernaut and Sammael are the only things on the store left listed with being made in finecast.

At least when searching for it (it also throws up a bunch of other models that have nothing to do with finecast so its probably also then doing fine and cast as search terms)



Otherwise Finecast is gone. GW is prepared to go back to metals or use regular resin instead of finecast. Finecast never worked right and pinged way more support tickets than normal because of its bubbling, mould damage and other issues. Honestly I was surprised GW stuck with it as long as they did when so many people would outright avoid it.

If it's not Forgeworld/"15+ Expert Kit" but resin it will be Finecast, despite them having killed that brand name for reasons we all know. Most Middle Earth resin kits are still "finecast", for example. For some they returned to metal, but things that were Finecast on release will still be that kind of terrible resin.

 Leopold Helveine wrote:

 Skywave wrote:
Made to order chaos coming up next weekend

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/09/08/sunday-preview-a-soupcon-of-chaos-in-the-old-world/

Gonna get me a Daemon Prince with sword and a Spawn for sure!

Aren't those finecast?

Do you guys think such will be remade with plastic kit? I've noticed loads of metal and finecast -old- units thrown into the gw store under old world, I don't understand this much as often its not even mentioned in the description what material the units are in (so I just guess its probably finecast -_-)

Really not liking the disposessed>mountain holds and aos chaos>ow chaos conversion, that makes me have to rebase a gigantic flippin owned army now..

No, they won't be plastic. They will be some form of resin or metal. Not sure what you mean about not being mentioned in the description, on the English speaking GW sites every product has material stated in the description, likewise you can filter products by the material so you can only browse plastic or metal or resin products, etc.

chaos0xomega wrote:


No, they won't be plastic. They will be some form of resin or metal. Not sure what you mean about not being mentioned in the description, on the English speaking GW sites every product has material stated in the description, likewise you can filter products by the material so you can only browse plastic or metal or resin products, etc.

Thanks, will remember that' didn't know you could filter on mat.

 Leopold Helveine wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:


No, they won't be plastic. They will be some form of resin or metal. Not sure what you mean about not being mentioned in the description, on the English speaking GW sites every product has material stated in the description, likewise you can filter products by the material so you can only browse plastic or metal or resin products, etc.

Thanks, will remember that' didn't know you could filter on mat.

All the re-released kits now branded as Old World are indeed well-labeled, which is a big step up from earlier times.
(Forge World) resin can already be distinguished from the range overview, as it will say "Expert Kit" between the product name and the price.
Otherwise, the full product description (after clicking "read more") usually lists the material twice:
Dwarf Command Set - 2nd paragraph: "This multipart resin kit"; 3rd paragraph: "This kit comprises 12 resin components"
Imperial Dwarf Command - 2nd paragraph: "This metal kit"; 3rd paragraph: "This kit contains 4 metal components"
Dwarf Lords with Shieldbearers - 2nd paragraph: "This multipart plastic kit"; 3rd paragraph: "This kit comprises 50 plastic components"

The preview articles on Warhammer Community have been pretty informative most of the time too, which is handy since while it was previously standard for returning kits to be re-released in the same material they were last available in, it can nowadays mean becoming metal if it was Finecast before (even models that were only ever Finecast I think, not just those that had existed as metal before becoming Finecast), or instead transitioning to FW resin.

Made to Order Prices (UK)

Daemon Prince (either) - £31.50
Chaos Spawn - £26.00
Sorcerer Lord on Chaos Steed* - £18.75

* - Who, for some reason, wasn't next to the other new Made to Order items...

Giant Chaos Spawn does not seem expensive? for a monster?

Ouch, I paid €34 for the sorcerer last time it was on made to order.

SU-152 wrote:
Giant Chaos Spawn does not seem expensive? for a monster?

If you say so...

It's not that big of a model.

Didnt that sorcerer have a nice crouching "on foot" version?
It would have been nice to see an alternative to the skinny plastic sorcerer.

SU-152 wrote:
Giant Chaos Spawn does not seem expensive? for a monster?

If you're talking about that MTO spawn it's not a giant spawn, it's the same size as the plastic spawn. The actual giant spawn is 64€.

 Fayric wrote:
Didnt that sorcerer have a nice crouching "on foot" version?
It would have been nice to see an alternative to the skinny plastic sorcerer.

Mostly. The infantry version's left hand is tentacles clutching a tome. Came with a familiar, I recall.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
Didnt that sorcerer have a nice crouching "on foot" version?
It would have been nice to see an alternative to the skinny plastic sorcerer.

Mostly. The infantry version's left hand is tentacles clutching a tome. Came with a familiar, I recall.

Ah, yes, looking him up on google, I believe the foot sorcerer had a second face on his back, and i dont think the rider have that.

There were two versions on foot, one limited and a general release. The former had the same style of bladed staff head and an outstretched right hand, while the latter had the tentacles clutching a tome with the same runed staff haft but with three screaming heads at the top instead of a blade. Slightly different poses too, the former more upright and flowing, and the latter was hunched and leaning (and with a face erupting from their back)

Neither were directly the same as the mounted sorcerer, and yet both perfectly passable as a dismounted version

 Tim the Biovore wrote:
There were two versions on foot, one limited and a general release. The former had the same style of bladed staff head and an outstretched right hand, while the latter had the tentacles clutching a tome with the same runed staff haft but with three screaming heads at the top instead of a blade. Slightly different poses too, the former more upright and flowing, and the latter was hunched and leaning (and with a face erupting from their back)

Neither were directly the same as the mounted sorcerer, and yet both perfectly passable as a dismounted version

Hmm, yeah, the horns on its head are more like the latter, but the first has the massive tentacle thing growing from the back of his head like the mounted one has too.

Not sure if asked before (not going to dig through 30 pages of unread commentary) but are we expected to rebase all the disposessed>mountain hold and upcoming chaos units that have been nicked from AOS to be rebranded old world?

Or can they still be used as is, considering.. I have like a full disposessed army now useless. -_-

 Leopold Helveine wrote:
Not sure if asked before (not going to dig through 30 pages of unread commentary) but are we expected to rebase all the disposessed>mountain hold and upcoming chaos units that have been nicked from AOS to be rebranded old world?

Or can they still be used as is, considering.. I have like a full disposessed army now useless. -_-

Okay, so I'm assuming you have an AOS army that you're wanting to run in TOW? Base adapters or movement trays with round slots. Both readily available.


Potentially you have some 8th Ed. stuff still on squares instead? Base adapters or slotted movement trays.


OR


If your game group isn't a bunch of sticklers, run them as is.


If you're asking if they're still viable for AOS? I personally neither know nor care, but they DO have the AOS section of this forum...

 Just Tony wrote:


Okay, so I'm assuming you have an AOS army that you're wanting to run in TOW? Base adapters or movement trays with round slots. Both readily available.


Potentially you have some 8th Ed. stuff still on squares instead? Base adapters or slotted movement trays.


OR


If your game group isn't a bunch of sticklers, run them as is.


If you're asking if they're still viable for AOS? I personally neither know nor care, but they DO have the AOS section of this forum...

Was definately meaning to use them for TOW, I have diminishing interest in AOS personally.. kindof want to break from it (haven't ever played a single game of anything wh related though but wanted to in the future, but TOW is much more motivating for me than AOS anyway)

So yeah.. trays it is I suppose.. (if that moment of playing ever comes), not going to rebase like 200 minis.. especially since some of my bases are made to look cool as hell.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

SU-152 wrote:
Giant Chaos Spawn does not seem expensive? for a monster?

If you're talking about that MTO spawn it's not a giant spawn, it's the same size as the plastic spawn. The actual giant spawn is 64€.

Oops, that makes more sense!

Just got an email stating my Prince with pincer claw and sorcerer on horseback from the MTO run have both shipped. Seems like they've figured out their production issues at least from my perspective.

I've also had recent MTOs ship immediately, like the Dragon Company Dwarves. Still waiting on the first wave Bret/TK MTO...

GW giveth, and GW taketh away.

I've been waiting for a LOOOOONG time for my MTO Trolls and OG Giant.

I am, in fact, still waiting!

 Alpharius wrote:
I've been waiting for a LOOOOONG time for my MTO Trolls and OG Giant.

I am, in fact, still waiting!

Same, but that's nowhere near the 180 days yet.

All my Dwarfs MTO were sent really quickly, both when bought on release on Saturday (within the first hour of it being up), and even one order from mid-week where I decided I wanted more Dragon Company before they're gone. All of them were shipped and received within a week. Even the Chaos ones from this weekend (got the Prince with Sword and one Spawn) is already shipped and I should get it tomorrow.

The one from March with the Marauder Giant took a while to ship but got it late last month. But since then, it seems they might have sorted out most of the production for those. If only they could manage to produce the regular items a bit better, still want to pick up some TK and Bretonian items that have been sold out since day 1 of their release.

 nathan2004 wrote:
Just got an email stating my Prince with pincer claw and sorcerer on horseback from the MTO run have both shipped. Seems like they've figured out their production issues at least from my perspective.

MTOs have a run produced before the MTO goes up and the earliest orders receive those with later orders getting made once those are gone. Those later orders that have to be made can take up to 6 months to get produced.

 Alpharius wrote:
I've been waiting for a LOOOOONG time for my MTO Trolls and OG Giant.

I am, in fact, still waiting!

I was waiting on the same order, mine arrived last week so fingers crossed yours will be arriving soon

 Prometheum5 wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I've been waiting for a LOOOOONG time for my MTO Trolls and OG Giant.

I am, in fact, still waiting!

Same, but that's nowhere near the 180 days yet.

I don't know, I'm past the 120 day point by now - not complaining mind you - just jealous when I see all these MTO customer getting theirs so quickly!

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I've been waiting for a LOOOOONG time for my MTO Trolls and OG Giant.

I am, in fact, still waiting!

I was waiting on the same order, mine arrived last week so fingers crossed yours will be arriving soon

Happy for you - and hoping you're right too!

 Platuan4th wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
Just got an email stating my Prince with pincer claw and sorcerer on horseback from the MTO run have both shipped. Seems like they've figured out their production issues at least from my perspective.

MTOs have a run produced before the MTO goes up and the earliest orders receive those with later orders getting made once those are gone. Those later orders that have to be made can take up to 6 months to get produced.

Thanks for the reminder, I forgot it worked this way. Need to remember this for future MTO runs.

 Alpharius wrote:
I don't know, I'm past the 120 day point by now - not complaining mind you - just jealous when I see all these MTO customer getting theirs so quickly!

Definitely email them if you've passed the 180 day mark. I've only had it happen once (out of 12 completed MtO's) and it looked like it'd slipped through the cracks in their system. They sent it out the very next day though.

Probably means nothing major but TOW is now listed as one of the main systems on the webstore, no more being stuck under 'More'!

 Londinium wrote:
Probably means nothing major but TOW is now listed as one of the main systems on the webstore, no more being stuck under 'More'!

it's been changing back and forth a bit recently. hope it settles down like this, tho

 Snrub wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I don't know, I'm past the 120 day point by now - not complaining mind you - just jealous when I see all these MTO customer getting theirs so quickly!

Definitely email them if you've passed the 180 day mark. I've only had it happen once (out of 12 completed MtO's) and it looked like it'd slipped through the cracks in their system. They sent it out the very next day though.

Happened to me with the 40k terrain, and it still took months - apparently they had to send it across the Atlantic in a rowboat.

Could someone please advise me on Chaos Spawn in the latest MTO? I see the unit size is max 4, but that feels a hefty investment. I was going for 2, and have been thinking about 3, but will I ever regret getting the full complement, or is it simply overkill and a bad use of funds? Thanks!

I would treat all the MTO as "collector" models.

Ergo if you REALLY love the design get it and if you really really love it get enough for multiples if the rules allow it.

But for a functional option don't forget you could use

https://www.warhammer.com/en-GB/shop/Chaos-Spawn-2016?queryID=cbdd71717e3b67fa5bcefa38499d04bf

or even (a few forms are fine one or two might need conversion

https://www.warhammer.com/en-GB/shop/chaos-space-marines-accursed-cultists-2022?queryID=02554ba24b61191d1edb5ff869611cb5




With Old World its mostly a case of if it first on the base, its good

rollthebones wrote:
Could someone please advise me on Chaos Spawn in the latest MTO? I see the unit size is max 4, but that feels a hefty investment. I was going for 2, and have been thinking about 3, but will I ever regret getting the full complement, or is it simply overkill and a bad use of funds? Thanks!

If you're not married to the idea that GW rules must be paired with GW models, this guy from Wizkids D&D minis makes an excellent Spawn.
And only costs $10-$15.

rollthebones wrote:
Could someone please advise me on Chaos Spawn in the latest MTO? I see the unit size is max 4, but that feels a hefty investment. I was going for 2, and have been thinking about 3, but will I ever regret getting the full complement, or is it simply overkill and a bad use of funds? Thanks!

I have a bunch of the metal ones from the MTO because when I was playing, that was the only official spawn model available.
The plastic muti-piece kit is a great set that will give you bits for days. They look fine alongside with the metals.



I would order one metal one and then get the plastic kit. If you need more than three, grab another plastic box. Really great models and it stretches your dollar pound.

If it doesn't have to be GW there are numerous models out there that could be used as spawn, often even god specific ones'.

Yeah, every spawn really ought to be unique, IMO.

None of the WHQ metals got MTO for The Old World yet did they? I kinding hoping the Imperial Noble comes around when the Empire figures get released.

I've been disappointed with the MTO models so far, minus the dwarf lords (and even then, no metal Thogrim MTO???)

I was hoping for metal Azhag, Archaon, etc., as MTO waves, though some of those models did get resin MTO waves during AOS.

Also, you can pick up the mutants holding the chaos warshrine off ebay for a decent price. They make nice spawn (and three of the four gellerpox hulks don't have anything super techy)

Ancient Otter wrote:
None of the WHQ metals got MTO for The Old World yet did they?

The Bretonnian Knight did, as part of a "Paladins with Swords & Shields" two pack.

 GaroRobe wrote:
I've been disappointed with the MTO models so far, minus the dwarf lords (and even then, no metal Thogrim MTO???)

I was hoping for metal Azhag, Archaon, etc., as MTO waves, though some of those models did get resin MTO waves during AOS.

Archaon was available in November 2022 with the mounted sorcerer that's on M2O right now, both metal.

 Fabio Bile wrote:

Ancient Otter wrote:
None of the WHQ metals got MTO for The Old World yet did they?

The Bretonnian Knight did, as part of a "Paladins with Swords & Shields" two pack.[/quote

Ah cheers, I forgot that one.