GW might need to finish building that new factory before they're able to handle the demand from a Mordheim MTO.
There are single minis which top £100+ on ebay, I valued my modest collection the other day and it came to over £1000, not even any of the rare warbands in there either.
* Empire release will not include a new knights unit (dunno if just delayed or previous rumour was wrong).
* Will include a new mounted Empire general, may be a character or not.
* Will be a new wizard kit (presumably hedge wizards as the College of Magics haven't been founded to the existing models don't really work)
* Empire release will not include a new knights unit (dunno if just delayed or previous rumour was wrong).
* Will include a new mounted Empire general, may be a character or not.
* Will be a new wizard kit (presumably hedge wizards as the College of Magics haven't been founded to the existing models don't really work)
The old plastic mounted general have "Karl Frans" stamped on the warhorse barding. Kind of hard to work around.
I belive there was official pictures of a foot general that had his warhammer modified to not have a "KF" on it.
Perhaps they try to include bits to make a grand master of the knightly order.
* Empire release will not include a new knights unit (dunno if just delayed or previous rumour was wrong).
* Will include a new mounted Empire general, may be a character or not.
* Will be a new wizard kit (presumably hedge wizards as the College of Magics haven't been founded to the existing models don't really work)
The old plastic mounted general have "Karl Frans" stamped on the warhorse barding. Kind of hard to work around..
Not that hard if the script was debossed/carved in; the negative of that would be a projection in the mould cavity that you would just have to machine off.
A pretty nice kit when they first came out in 19oatcake, but suffered from scale increases, Spesh next to the wonderful outriders and pistoliers.
I agree, though that sentiment hasn't stopped them from ignoring the most obvious unit refreshes with The Old World thus far. Plastic Slayers for Dwarfs probably being the most glaring. Hopefully the apparent success of the game means they actually get an increase in production slots and those kinds of units get a glow up.
nathan2004 wrote: Is there a major event between now and the new year they could preview the empire release at?
I'm hardly qualified to say as I don't pay attention to events, but at a glance there's a US Open near the end of November if GW were in need of an excuse for a preview. Not sure there is much else this year. I assume there'll be an Advent rumor engine, but I'm not sure I'd expect something like that to feature The Old World. There's probably a Boxing Day preview, but I think in the past it's been focused on a single army, Maybe a handful. Which isn't a format that fits The Old World very well. Hard to get people excited over models they overwhelmingly have known already for years and decades.
Me, I could see the Empire to be revealed in a random Monday article close to release. GW doesn't invest a lot in new models for The Old World. Without that, there's not a lot to show.
There may not even be any incentive to preview the Empire this year. Per the Nova roadmap (added in spoilers for convenience) Empire is in 2025. We may continue to see an army release per quarter, but that might still put Empire as far back as March.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: New Knights are a must, as the existing/old ones are tiny.
A pretty nice kit when they first came out in 19oatcake, but suffered from scale increases, Spesh next to the wonderful outriders and pistoliers.
but this is currently the point of TOW, to release exactly that was there and didn't make it to AoS the chance for new Knights was gone when GW used the 6th Edition Goblins despite newer models being available
my only hope is that we see the metal knights as at a good price
Yes and no - the new goblins were in AoS and its very clear that GW management has drawn some very strong lines in the sand and isn't doing any cross compatibility of kits - at least as much as they can get away with.
So new Knights are potentially possible. GW has created new kits for other armies coming back. They are just not in a position where Old World can justify wholesale upgrades of armies.
Now there is potential with the big sales that we MIGHT see some of the latter armies get a bit more added to them. Otherwise I think that we'll simply see Old World enter the same cycle as other mainline games from GW.
New armies will come along with fully new sculpts now and then (Kisleve and Cathay); old armies will get updates; either big wholesale ones with new editions or big expansions; and bit by bit here and there over time.
It's going to be a good 10year block at the very least before we see the entire range brought up to modern plastics - perhaps longer. However is sales remain healthy and the game grows enough to hold a good standing and financial income then that's likely what we can expect.
I do hope we see a WHC article when they preview the Empire and the High Elves like they did for WoC, where it clearly explains what will be in which wave, and what'll be M2O.
Yes and no, the intent certainly seems to be to modernize the range over time based on the "eye candy", but why would GW rush to get new kits out when they can still make money hand over fist with 20 year old kits who's costs have already been paid for. Their strategy is to sell you the old stuff, and then get you to buy the resculpts of what you already own
It's also a strategy to get the game running. This isn't a new game entering the market fresh.
It's - well honestly its a bit a mess because its an old game they used to sell (not that long ago) returning to market when half the model range is already on sale by a different division of GW at the same time.
It's actually amazing its working let alone working so well. And yet it is and getting whole armies out in one go, even iwth old kits, is letting the game work and thrive. Probably faster than if they'd only done new armies and fully new kits and took years to get more than handful of armies out whilst those who were near the end were left doing nothing for ages.
Instead they can jump right in with classic models and then I suspect around the 2nd edition we'll start to see a big move toward replacing and adding with new sculps
skeleton wrote: there will be no new knight, thats wat Valrak said.
Dont now if its true.
People still can't wrap their head around the fact that this is mainly a reissue model game with a few pieces of eye candy to keep it fresh.
Indeed. On the basis of the releases so far, I think this is at least as fair a supposition as anything else. From what we’ve seen so far, I don’t see any reason to assume we’ll really ever see particularly extensive range updates.
Prometheum5 wrote: I got a shipping notice this morning for my TOW Wave 1 MTO stuff!
I just got an email that the Marauder Giant and Friends MTO is delayed.
I think by a week if my numbers on the first deadline were right. Which seems odd that they need an extra week after having six months. 'Oi, mate, when were all these boxes to be posted?...'
Prometheum5 wrote: I got a shipping notice this morning for my TOW Wave 1 MTO stuff!
I just got an email that the Marauder Giant and Friends MTO is delayed.
I think by a week if my numbers on the first deadline were right. Which seems odd that they need an extra week after having six months. 'Oi, mate, when were all these boxes to be posted?...'
Lmao yeah I got that email today as well, now targeting to have everything ready to ship by 11/15.
From the Sunday preview "Over on Warhammer Community this week we will be revealing new miniatures for Necromunda and Warhammer: The Old World, and plenty of great stuff besides."
New minis for the Old World just in time for Christmas I'm guessing.
nathan2004 wrote: What’s missing from dwarves and Bretonnia? Chaos is galrauch and the marauder chick. They’ve already revealed these, these aren’t new models right?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Could it not be empire?
Just as well too. Dwarfen Gunlines Of Numbing Inevitability need all the help they can get in reducing my entire counter plan “get across the board as fast as I can, and to hope to hell that once I can charge, I’ve enough stuff left that I don’t simply bounce off his front line, who because reasons all have really good combat stats and Great Weapons to boot”
You know it strikes me - perhaps the reason Dwarves stalled and never went anywhere in AoS is that the team wound up learning that they were going to be an Old World army and all the design work got shifted over. Or just shut down as a line they weren't going to now explore in AoS (poor Gotrek!)
Overread wrote: You know it strikes me - perhaps the reason Dwarves stalled and never went anywhere in AoS is that the team wound up learning that they were going to be an Old World army and all the design work got shifted over. Or just shut down as a line they weren't going to now explore in AoS (poor Gotrek!)
Can't see that being the case personally; it's a different team and the design work wouldn't have seen much crossover. This is very much in line with the existing WHFB aesthetic from the latter editions for Dwarfs (as is the new plastic Lord) so no reason really to suspect that design elements from AOS would have travelled. Given how the internal politics seem to have dictated matters, had they actually wanted to pursue Duardin(?) in AoS at this point (or at least in a manner that evoked classic fantasy incarnation to a degree that meant the TOW release would tread on its toes), then Dwarfs probably just wouldn't have been a featured faction in TOW. If there is a lack of serious development intent in the dwarfy factions in AOS (and I have no idea if that's the case), then I'd imagine it's more down to them not being especially popular or interesting? Overlords are nice sculpts with a fun premise but relatively limited in scope, whereas Fyreslayers are (monsters aside) pretty boring and even more limited in general.
Overread wrote: You know it strikes me - perhaps the reason Dwarves stalled and never went anywhere in AoS is that the team wound up learning that they were going to be an Old World army and all the design work got shifted over. Or just shut down as a line they weren't going to now explore in AoS (poor Gotrek!)
Can't see that being the case personally; it's a different team and the design work wouldn't have seen much crossover. This is very much in line with the existing WHFB aesthetic from the latter editions for Dwarfs (as is the new plastic Lord) so no reason really to suspect that design elements from AOS would have travelled. Given how the internal politics seem to have dictated matters, had they actually wanted to pursue Duardin(?) in AoS at this point (or at least in a manner that evoked classic fantasy incarnation to a degree that meant the TOW release would tread on its toes), then Dwarfs probably just wouldn't have been a featured faction in TOW. If there is a lack of serious development intent in the dwarfy factions in AOS (and I have no idea if that's the case), then I'd imagine it's more down to them not being especially popular or interesting? Overlords are nice sculpts with a fun premise but relatively limited in scope, whereas Fyreslayers are (monsters aside) pretty boring and even more limited in general.
And yet we saw them pull beastmen out of AoS and put them in Old World.
So I could well see the same happen with Dwarves just leaving the AoS team with nothing and scrapping plans for a while.
Granted AoS has other oddities too - like the Dark Elves just sitting there as a full factions worth of models
Beastmen don't sell whatever setting they're in. They probably shoved them back hoping they can get a little nostaligia bucks before they return to their usual spot of ignored and forgotten about.
Its a very busy model. I think I might like it more when regular hobbyists get their hands on it and it gets a non studio style paint job.
Its feels a weird model to be announcing though with so many gaps in the ranges, let alone with so much untapped potential for the game and there being no news since the roadmap.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Beastmen don't sell whatever setting they're in. They probably shoved them back hoping they can get a little nostaligia bucks before they return to their usual spot of ignored and forgotten about.
Omg I actually wanted to collect those ;l
Anyway as a dwarfophile, I also am not really blown away (heh pun) by the shootydwarf, I like my dwarfs up close and impersonal.
Problem with dark elves is half the faction is a pretty popular AoS faction in the form of Daughters of Khaine. I'd be 100% on board if GW wanted to introduce "Black Ark Raiders of Naggarond" as a core TOW faction using all the non-wych based elements of the army after they dump them from Cities of Sigmar.
chaos0xomega wrote: Problem with dark elves is half the faction is a pretty popular AoS faction in the form of Daughters of Khaine. I'd be 100% on board if GW wanted to introduce "Black Ark Raiders of Naggarond" as a core TOW faction using all the non-wych based elements of the army after they dump them from Cities of Sigmar.
Wood elves will probably need new units if cities elves are hauled to oldworld as they are really weak without being able to make use of sylvaneth (or dwarves/sigmarites).
I have both a AOS full (cities) elves army, and same with dwarves, but may have to sell the elves? Dunno.. Not sure anyone even wants them.
Overread wrote: You know it strikes me - perhaps the reason Dwarves stalled and never went anywhere in AoS is that the team wound up learning that they were going to be an Old World army and all the design work got shifted over. Or just shut down as a line they weren't going to now explore in AoS (poor Gotrek!)
Can't see that being the case personally; it's a different team and the design work wouldn't have seen much crossover. This is very much in line with the existing WHFB aesthetic from the latter editions for Dwarfs (as is the new plastic Lord) so no reason really to suspect that design elements from AOS would have travelled. Given how the internal politics seem to have dictated matters, had they actually wanted to pursue Duardin(?) in AoS at this point (or at least in a manner that evoked classic fantasy incarnation to a degree that meant the TOW release would tread on its toes), then Dwarfs probably just wouldn't have been a featured faction in TOW. If there is a lack of serious development intent in the dwarfy factions in AOS (and I have no idea if that's the case), then I'd imagine it's more down to them not being especially popular or interesting? Overlords are nice sculpts with a fun premise but relatively limited in scope, whereas Fyreslayers are (monsters aside) pretty boring and even more limited in general.
And yet we saw them pull beastmen out of AoS and put them in Old World.
So I could well see the same happen with Dwarves just leaving the AoS team with nothing and scrapping plans for a while.
Granted AoS has other oddities too - like the Dark Elves just sitting there as a full factions worth of models
That's not necessarily a good comparison considering the AOS Dwarf factions have both had bespoke identities and miniature ranges created for that setting; i.e. they were always going to be within that space and couldn't feasibly be ported over to TOW. They have a presence in that world, even if (and I have no idea on this), they're not featured strongly or get a huge amount of support for whatever reason.
The Beastmen were incorporated into AOS but weren't updated to mesh specifically within that setting and seemingly weren't popular enough to justify a range refresh in the manner of Skaven or Chaos Warriors (or a spiritual successor in the manner of Lumineth) so just dropping them and returning those WHFB models back to their original setting isn't anything like as problematic.
Again, they're different design teams for the most part; if they're not doing anything with Duardin in AOS, it's far more likely to be for an AOS-centric reason than anything to do with TOW. As an aside though; yes the Dark Elves are going to be an interesting one when the Malerion stuff finally appears in AOS. Probably just get phased out completely and maybe return if Dark Elves ever get a proper presence in TOW (though the Witch Elf plastics may not make it).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos0xomega wrote: Problem with dark elves is half the faction is a pretty popular AoS faction in the form of Daughters of Khaine. I'd be 100% on board if GW wanted to introduce "Black Ark Raiders of Naggarond" as a core TOW faction using all the non-wych based elements of the army after they dump them from Cities of Sigmar.
Given the scope of TOW is largely on the main continent for now (and the Border Princes specifically), focusing on the corsair element actually makes a lot of sense.
chaos0xomega wrote: Problem with dark elves is half the faction is a pretty popular AoS faction in the form of Daughters of Khaine. I'd be 100% on board if GW wanted to introduce "Black Ark Raiders of Naggarond" as a core TOW faction using all the non-wych based elements of the army after they dump them from Cities of Sigmar.
Thing is Daughters of Khain is only 2 Dark Elf kits - the cauldron and witch aelves; and half a kit (the warlock riders). Everything else (the vast bulk of models) is in the Dark Elf roster.
So they could easily move Dark Elves over and just leave off those two kits; or bring back their previous metal generation models. Throw a repeater Boltthrower in metal and the only 2 things missing are named hero kits.
Dark Elves are just in a really odd spot where they've got a full AoS army but no one wants to do anything with them. GW don't want to commit to removing or establishing them and I think players as a result also don't want to invest or get too into them incase they vanish. They did "soft" reboot Dark Elves into Daughters of Khain with an expansion book; but nothing firm after that.
It's just really odd that they've been left in such a limbo state considering how many models there are.
Yeah but those 2.5 kits represent a number of *units*, 6 by my country plus a mount option, including most of the available rare choices aside from the hydra, kharibdyss, and bolt thrower.
chaos0xomega wrote: Yeah but those 2.5 kits represent a number of *units*, 6 by my country plus a mount option, including most of the available rare choices aside from the hydra, kharibdyss, and bolt thrower.
True, the Cauldron does have quite a few models within it; but there's still a bulk of model kits and sets outside of them. Suffice to say they could move over to Old World without losing too much. And as I noted they could bring back one or two in metal for Old World considering that the models went through a big size upgrade with the shift to the new sculpt.
Honestly I just wish GW would make a choice with the Dark Elf line. Keep them in AoS as their own thing; merge them with DoK; move them to OW; cancel them - whatever they do I just wish they'd DO it and not leave them in this strange limbo
That's fair. The nonhuman elements of CoS in general feel like they exist in limbo, hopefully GW invests into updating them in some capacity and does something w the remaining dark elf content in the faction.
Yeah I was a little surprised that they went with pure humans for the core of CoS. I know that there was a lot of "we want a human faction" pressure; but at the same time I always imagind that the core Cities army would be Dwarf, Human and Elf combined with perhaps a token Orruk who remained in a CoS and didn't splinter out.
Followed by a dedicated human-only faction with their own lore about why they were mono-human. Perhaps being super Sigmar worshippers (which is what we kind of got with CoS right now); or some other God or setup that set them apart.
JimmyWolf87 wrote: That's not necessarily a good comparison considering the AOS Dwarf factions have both had bespoke identities and miniature ranges created for that setting; i.e. they were always going to be within that space and couldn't feasibly be ported over to TOW. They have a presence in that world, even if (and I have no idea on this), they're not featured strongly or get a huge amount of support for whatever reason.
Weren't at least the fyreslayer designs started for WHFB? The decision to end WHFB was sudden, and GW has a long lead time for releases so a bunch of the early AOS 1e stuff kinda had to have been originally for WHFB, and they were an early release.
Strange they would only bring the war wagon back as a made to order, after spending the time to remaster it.
Even stranger than just that, is having what appears to be the only new miniature announced with this, be exclusive to that timed made-to-order. Just a baffling decision.
ok, the only models not previously available are the Ulrik Priests and Teutogen Guard and the War Wagon, with the wagon being the only model I don't have so depends on the price
Cutting the Altar from the list in favour of AoS for "fluff reasons" and bringing them back for "Nuln and Knights" now doesn't really make any sense but whatever
the rest isn't really exciting, Mortheim/Militia is good to be back with the 8th Edi core infantry instead of the 5th/6th Edi one (like with O&G) so the few infantry needed can be done from that kit
and the Battalion Box, like no real reason to use a lot of infantry anyway with that army list, but with the tank in the box it doesn't even make sense to buy it twice and try to get infantry on the table
Mostly happy to see the archers returning. Bought a single set of almost every Empire kit before they disappeared to make Mordheim and other warbands, and it's the archers set I've enjoyed the most (and ran out many bits from first; they have some very nice, more fine swords and daggers on those sprues).
From the entire reveal stream, the only disappointment was the Empire war wagon...
Wish they'd just get a Land Ship out the door, something to rival the Tomb King, howdah dragon thingy. Big, shiny, plastic a centrepiece with a 'wow' factor..
Alas, 'tis not to be. Can't wait to plan and build an Empire army though, happy days.
Having seen the preview theres a lot more that I want to get than I thought I needed to finish my empire army.
New war wagon seems like a good reason to buy a second one.
The milita / archer kit I'll buy enough to make at least two units.
And teutogen guard are a unit I never thought I'd own, the ebay prices have always been crazy.
Scrub wrote: From the entire reveal stream, the only disappointment was the Empire war wagon...
Wish they'd just get a Land Ship out the door, something to rival the Tomb King, howdah dragon thingy. Big, shiny, plastic a centrepiece with a 'wow' factor..
Alas, 'tis not to be. Can't wait to plan and build an Empire army though, happy days.
To be fair, the Land Ship was resin and we haven't seen them making FW kits in plastic outside of the Horus Heresy. The War Altar and Griffons are both decent centerpieces
But fingers crossed they release the Land Ship in the next wave
Personally I'm hyped at getting the 6th edition General on Griffon as well and the 4th edition Hero on Pegasus! Imperial Ogres might also be worth a look!
Really was hyped at the War Wagon too, but thought it would have been a general release and not a made-to-order model. And being resin also is a bit of a bummer (think that's the first "remastered in resin" piece that's going made-to-order?). They went through all the trouble of making new horses for it, and a random engineer model with it for all of that to be limited release. An odd choice.
Scrub wrote: From the entire reveal stream, the only disappointment was the Empire war wagon...
Wish they'd just get a Land Ship out the door, something to rival the Tomb King, howdah dragon thingy. Big, shiny, plastic a centrepiece with a 'wow' factor..
Alas, 'tis not to be. Can't wait to plan and build an Empire army though, happy days.
To be fair, the Land Ship was resin and we haven't seen them making FW kits in plastic outside of the Horus Heresy.
They did it with Trygon, Valkyrie, Baneblade and DKoK for 40k. But their WHFB portfolio was never that extensive.
Skywave wrote: Personally I'm hyped at getting the 6th edition General on Griffon as well and the 4th edition Hero on Pegasus! Imperial Ogres might also be worth a look!
Really was hyped at the War Wagon too, but thought it would have been a general release and not a made-to-order model. And being resin also is a bit of a bummer (think that's the first "remastered in resin" piece that's going made-to-order?). They went through all the trouble of making new horses for it, and a random engineer model with it for all of that to be limited release. An odd choice.
Did I miss where they said they’d release the 6th Ed and 4th Ed kits?
Skywave wrote: Personally I'm hyped at getting the 6th edition General on Griffon as well and the 4th edition Hero on Pegasus! Imperial Ogres might also be worth a look!
Really was hyped at the War Wagon too, but thought it would have been a general release and not a made-to-order model. And being resin also is a bit of a bummer (think that's the first "remastered in resin" piece that's going made-to-order?). They went through all the trouble of making new horses for it, and a random engineer model with it for all of that to be limited release. An odd choice.
Did I miss where they said they’d release the 6th Ed and 4th Ed kits?
It was in the stream reveal show, but are not shown in the related article on community for some reason. They will be part of the made to order models, so not patt of the permanent range.
Cap'n Facebeard wrote: Wow, thanks Skywave, well I just went from mostly disappointed to very interested.
Did they say if these two are metal? I can't watch it with sound right now.
Yes from what they says, all the stuff coming back for Empire like characters and old models will be metal including those two! The only exception (that I can think of) is for the remastered War Wagon which will be Forgewold resin (and potentially any new sculpt released later too from past release experience).
Skywave wrote: Personally I'm hyped at getting the 6th edition General on Griffon as well and the 4th edition Hero on Pegasus! Imperial Ogres might also be worth a look!
Really was hyped at the War Wagon too, but thought it would have been a general release and not a made-to-order model. And being resin also is a bit of a bummer (think that's the first "remastered in resin" piece that's going made-to-order?). They went through all the trouble of making new horses for it, and a random engineer model with it for all of that to be limited release. An odd choice.
Did I miss where they said they’d release the 6th Ed and 4th Ed kits?
It was in the stream reveal show, but are not shown in the related article on community for some reason. They will be part of the made to order models, so not patt of the permanent range.
I'm a little sad we got a knightly orders arcane list and not a middenhiem themed list since we have the guard and priests and they had a sub-list prior. And we already have human all cavalry lists in Bretonians.
Oh well, excited for the warwagon, the 6th ed griffon general, and some others.
Skywave wrote: Personally I'm hyped at getting the 6th edition General on Griffon as well and the 4th edition Hero on Pegasus! Imperial Ogres might also be worth a look!
Really was hyped at the War Wagon too, but thought it would have been a general release and not a made-to-order model. And being resin also is a bit of a bummer (think that's the first "remastered in resin" piece that's going made-to-order?). They went through all the trouble of making new horses for it, and a random engineer model with it for all of that to be limited release. An odd choice.
Did I miss where they said they’d release the 6th Ed and 4th Ed kits?
It was in the stream reveal show, but are not shown in the related article on community for some reason. They will be part of the made to order models, so not patt of the permanent range.
Thanks man, adding these both to the list of kits to buy...my list is growing long!
I was hoping I wouldn't need that much for the Empire, already having a sizeable army, but yeah those two are top of the list and definitely the highlight for me!
Might if she hangs out on the edge. Whoever designed this model captured the aesthetic very well. Hopefully they get to continue designing chaos and/or old world stuff.
Cap'n Facebeard wrote: I would looove Frydaal if she was in plastic or metal. Just not a fan of resin, but I might get her anyway.
Honestly the resin GW are using now from FW for the modern models is good! I've got a good few of the new Bretonnia models in resin and they are great! No fear at all about buying more
Overread wrote: Honestly the resin GW are using now from FW for the modern models is good! I've got a good few of the new Bretonnia models in resin and they are great! No fear at all about buying more
You have convinced me to definitely get her. Just had bad experiences with finecast and Etsy resins.
Yeah I got the bone giant and casket of souls for Tomb Kings (both FW resin) and they turned out great. No issues at all. I understand the hesitancy but feels like they figured out their resin issues at least from my perspective.
ToW migrated all 20mm based models to 25mm, and all 25mm to a new 30mm.
With a few exceptions like Marauders and Gors staying at 25 as well as Beastman characters getting the option to be either 25 or 30.
Don’t forget the Goblin Fanatics on round bases, plus random monsters getting base size changes.
That said, at least base size is now fully part of the unit stats so there’s no questions about it anymore.
Overread wrote: Honestly the resin GW are using now from FW for the modern models is good! I've got a good few of the new Bretonnia models in resin and they are great! No fear at all about buying more
You have convinced me to definitely get her. Just had bad experiences with finecast and Etsy resins.
Etsy is a minefield of casting firms and 3d printing firms - some of which know their stuff and some haven't got a single clue (and can even ship hazardous part cured or poorly washed 3D printed models).
Finecast I avoided. It was nearly always a painful experience. The difference I noticed is that it was much more likely to have chunks of mould trapped in parts of the model that needed picking out; or it would have bubble "clusters". Normal cast resins can have bubbles, but they are small, random and often just a case of using a tiny bit of filler and you're done. Finecast would have clusters that would obliterate a chunk of detail and would repeat that same obliteration cast to cast to cast so even replacements had the same issue.
FW's resin (which is what GW are using now for all the new resin 15+models) is much more traditional cast resin. It's a whole world away from finecast.
Problems about FW in the past usually were about using that stuff for larger multipart minis, where it's, ironically, pretty bad for. Infantry sized minis didn't have as many problems, my Necrosius is one of the most detailed 40K minis I have- he' s pretty brittle though.
nathan2004 wrote:Yeah I got the bone giant and casket of souls for Tomb Kings (both FW resin) and they turned out great. No issues at all. I understand the hesitancy but feels like they figured out their resin issues at least from my perspective.
Well, for character models anyway. Resin large vehicles are still garbage.
nathan2004 wrote:Yeah I got the bone giant and casket of souls for Tomb Kings (both FW resin) and they turned out great. No issues at all. I understand the hesitancy but feels like they figured out their resin issues at least from my perspective.
Well, for character models anyway. Resin large vehicles are still garbage.
Maybe THAT's why the War Wagon will be limited - they went to all the trouble of remastering it, only to discover that the finished product is garbage. They still want to make their money back with a quick MTO, but don't want to commit.
New special characters were not shown in the article, but can be seen in the preview briefly:
Strange they would only bring the war wagon back as a made to order, after spending the time to remaster it.
The new model looks like abit like the JB painting of the Knights Panther Grand Master.
My God, if that’s true (and it certainly LOOKS true) that would be so exciting! The old Knight Panther Grand Master was such a pale shadow of what Blanche painted.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I can't tell if it's perspective or not, but his legs look really short. And the helmet is dumb, even for warhammer helmets.
It does look a bit 'off' in terms of proportions but I think it's probably just down to the shape of the coat and the length of that mail skirt relative to the chunkiness of the leg armour.
The whole model is bordering on being the usual GW level of too busy for my tastes but just about stays on the right side of the fence given it's a special character. Perhaps a little 'cramped' but that could always be the perspective and the paintjob.
I don't usually like ridiculous helmets or oversize warhammers or suspect anatomy, but this stocky little chap is clearly greater than the sum of its parts.
Too busy, off anatomy but strangely funny and very Warhammery... I don't know, but I think I kind of missed that from the somewhat darkish and getting boring AoS.
Love the mini, very very excited for this empire release. Excluding old world, it’s all the GW I’m buying these days and actually getting friends into it also.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I can't tell if it's perspective or not, but his legs look really short. And the helmet is dumb, even for warhammer helmets.
It does look a bit 'off' in terms of proportions but I think it's probably just down to the shape of the coat and the length of that mail skirt relative to the chunkiness of the leg armour.
The whole model is bordering on being the usual GW level of too busy for my tastes but just about stays on the right side of the fence given it's a special character. Perhaps a little 'cramped' but that could always be the perspective and the paintjob.
I can believe that the human inside is reasonably normally proportioned but the pose and design of his armor work together to throw people off. A high collar like that can by itself really mess with perception because it lengthens the part associated with the body, removes the neck and even part of the head. This is reinforced by his stride which shortens the appearance of the legs. Add the bulky gear typical of Warhammer design and you end up with a man of great width.
He's getting swallowed up his armor! Doesn't matter what size of man you are, if you put a suit on meant for a much bigger man you look little. They overdid the heroic armor proportions by a lot.
That is actually the first new model for the Old World that i absolutely hate.
Everything apart from his body is oversized. The helmet is twice the size of the helmet on his drawing. The shoulderpad with the lion is stupendously big. The feathers on his helmet pale those of Karl Franz himself. His mail shirt seems to go to his shins.
Compare him to the new paladin on foot model for the Bretonnians. That model oozes menace. This one looks like a comedy model next to it.
The big knees, huge pauldron, puffy sleeves, and bulky scabbard might be making a model with normal proportions look like it's 70% torso, but that's not really an excuse for ol' Moustache McHammerHelm looking so janky.
If you look at where the belt is, it's about halfway between the bottom of his feet and the top of his head (not counting the crest of his helmet). I just measured, and my belt-line is 55% of my height.
As other people have said, his armor is weirdly proportioned, not necessarily his body.
Can't wait to see him ranked beside regular troops so I can see how much bigger (or not) he is. Not a model I plan to get, but curious if he's suffering from the Bret foot knight size creep.
The proportions do feel a bit off but he rather embodies the Ankh-Morpork City Watch mindset towards their armoury, "One size doesn't quite fit all", where the same armour looks wrong on everybody but in different ways.
Lord Damocles wrote: The big knees, huge pauldron, puffy sleeves, and bulky scabbard might be making a model with normal proportions look like it's 70% torso, but that's not really an excuse for ol' Moustache McHammerHelm looking so janky.
Having done some quick head-length measurements, if I remember my canon of proportions right, I think it might actually be his torso that’s undersized, it’s just thrown off visually by the excessive size of his gorget, greaves and skirt.
I make it 2 headlengths from floor to knees (which is right), ~2 from knee to waist (also right) and ~2 from waist to chin (when it should be 3). That’s assuming his belt is supposed to be sat on the waist, if it’s meant to be higher it might be 1.5HL for the thighs and 2.5 for the body, which make both short, but the body a bit less so.
Very nice indeed – dripping with character. Very nice to see some updates of classic familiars (even if I'm a bit sad that's not a Gnome Wizard, but a familiar).
Their release does make me question why GW have made such a point about this being set before the Colleges of Magic have been established, only to release three themed so obviously around them.
Not that it's a problem, of course, but just made me scratch my head a bit (just like the preponderance of Steam Tanks).
Their release does make me question why GW have made such a point about this being set before the Colleges of Magic have been established, only to release three themed so obviously around them.
Except they arent? Its a battle wizard, an elementalist, and a necromancer. If they have certain similarities to certain colleges its because the magics associated with those disciplins overlap with those of certain colleges.
Mighty fine models and nice to see a nod to the fact that both Middenheim and Talebheim have had official Magic Schools /Guilds for hundreds of years by this point
Apologist wrote: Their release does make me question why GW have made such a point about this being set before the Colleges of Magic have been established, only to release three themed so obviously around them.
The Amber-ish wizard makes sense, as their traditions date back to pre-collegiate shamanic traditions, but to go with that there really should have been a Jade-esque druid type. Anyone walking around with a scythe and a skeletal sidekick is just begging to be burned as a necromancer in this era.
Shakalooloo wrote: Anyone walking around with a scythe and a skeletal sidekick is just begging to be burned as a necromancer in this era.
Why? You could always say you're a shaman or a priest of Morr, Sure, some people would burn you, others won't. And the Witch-hunters got their licence to torture/burn/kill everyone outside the Colleges of Magic from Magnus the Pious.
The light wizard looks like he could double as a bright wizard. His robes have flame designs. I assume it’s intentional, since the amber wizard also has plant details
Thank you both. I just went down the rabbit hole with that and find it fascinating.
Does it feel like empire is getting more love than the rest of the armies? Are they trying to sell them as the ultramarines of Old World yall think? It does feel like they can do everything but aren’t terribly good at any one specific thing.
nathan2004 wrote: Thank you both. I just went down the rabbit hole with that and find it fascinating.
Does it feel like empire is getting more love than the rest of the armies? Are they trying to sell them as the ultramarines of Old World yall think? It does feel like they can do everything but aren’t terribly good at any one specific thing.
I am pretty sure that was the Empire's whole schtick, from my understanding, it was always the Jack of All Trades faction. It's also generally one of the most flagship faction, though not to the extent of the Ultra's in 40k (Let alone the Space Marines in general)
nathan2004 wrote:Thank you both. I just went down the rabbit hole with that and find it fascinating.
Does it feel like empire is getting more love than the rest of the armies? Are they trying to sell them as the ultramarines of Old World yall think? It does feel like they can do everything but aren’t terribly good at any one specific thing.
Historically Old World never really had a single faction as the "face" of the brand. It would shift around each edition whoever was in the starter set. Eg one of the last and popular was Skaven VS High Elves. As for what they are getting, I think its hit and miss. I don't think they are any more popular and other factions have had new models and such as well. IT might be that it doing well we might see a few more new things appearing and getting pushed into the latter armies as updated/new models here and there.
Lathe Biosas wrote:I haven't been able to dig very far into The Old World... do the Brets still have my favorite annoying model: The Green Knight?
Not sold over by those wizards myself. They look fine but I have enough wizard already that none of them jump at me as "must" have! Especially the battle wizard guy with his bland white/light blue colour (never really work for GW studio, looking at you Leontus). Plus they'll be FW resin so I expect them to be pricy.
nathan2004 wrote: Thank you both. I just went down the rabbit hole with that and find it fascinating.
Does it feel like empire is getting more love than the rest of the armies? Are they trying to sell them as the ultramarines of Old World yall think? It does feel like they can do everything but aren’t terribly good at any one specific thing.
I am pretty sure that was the Empire's whole schtick, from my understanding, it was always the Jack of All Trades faction. It's also generally one of the most flagship faction, though not to the extent of the Ultra's in 40k (Let alone the Space Marines in general)
I always got the impression that The Empire was set up as the focus of the game and the setting, with lots of books and the RPG having heavy focus on the Empire. No other faction has as rich lore in how the different counties function and history. An insight in daily life, commerce, internal conflict and political games unparalelled in the setting. But just the same, as a playable faction in Fantasy Battle, a rather dull and unpopular army that lacked the high fantasy monsters and sense of awe the other factions had.
nathan2004 wrote: Thank you both. I just went down the rabbit hole with that and find it fascinating.
Does it feel like empire is getting more love than the rest of the armies? Are they trying to sell them as the ultramarines of Old World yall think? It does feel like they can do everything but aren’t terribly good at any one specific thing.
They're kind of the "Imperium" of The Old World, in that they're the main "point of view" faction of the setting. Gameplay-wise, they tend to be better at shooting and artillery than close combat, but they have a large, flexible army list (or at least, they did when I played WHFB back during 6th-7th edition; I assume it's much the same now).
These all look "fine". But there's nothing here that stands out from the thousand plus other wizard models out there. Especially not for FW resin prices.
I really do like that Necromancer and might just get it. Like a lot of you though, I have a pile of Wizards...like, 8 of them. I don't really need a new one.
nathan2004 wrote: Thank you both. I just went down the rabbit hole with that and find it fascinating.
Does it feel like empire is getting more love than the rest of the armies? Are they trying to sell them as the ultramarines of Old World yall think? It does feel like they can do everything but aren’t terribly good at any one specific thing.
At this point in the history of The Empire, it’s comprised of at least three, competing, factions.
It’s also traditionally had a decent array of units.
Not forgetting that historically forces like Kisleve have "jumped" in and out of Empire in being subfactions of the army to being an army in their own right (pretty sure for at least one edition they had their own battletome or expansion tome)
Overread wrote: Not forgetting that historically forces like Kisleve have "jumped" in and out of Empire in being subfactions of the army to being an army in their own right (pretty sure for at least one edition they had their own battletome or expansion tome)
Kislev had a WD army list and miniatures release during 6th. I imagine partly because 6th ran for the longest of all editions at ~6 years (just as 3rd ed 40k ran a long time - LotR took up a lot of resources during that time) so 6th also had the most rules updates, tweaks and unit additions of any WFB edition, without changing edition.
It's probably why 6th has such a strong image in my mind, it was continuously supported and developed during its run because they couldn't commit to an edition cycle. The irony is that it felt more alive and dynamic having it as a living rulebook through WD than their endless edition churn strategy.
Shakalooloo wrote: Anyone walking around with a scythe and a skeletal sidekick is just begging to be burned as a necromancer in this era.
Why? You could always say you're a shaman or a priest of Morr, Sure, some people would burn you, others won't. And the Witch-hunters got their licence to torture/burn/kill everyone outside the Colleges of Magic from Magnus the Pious.
Ambulatory three-foot tall skeletons tend to freak out the normies. And the article itself says "In the Reikland, seat of the Cult of Sigmar, magic is almost universally outlawed and its practitioners are often burnt at the stake as witches. "
True, but these are models for the battlefield. Where the wizards are specifically encouraged to use their powers. So it makes sense that they'd be throwing fireballs and summoning aids and doing all the things that otherwise might get them burned at the stake.
Technically Bretonnia has Outcast Wizards rather than Hedge Wizards, minor distinction there.
Empire is the POV faction, theyre meant to be the "baseline" human faction through which the world becomes relatable (Brets are either inbred peasant serfs or souped up folk-saints, not as relatable and subject to cultural and societal norms which are meant to alienate fans in a way that makes you view them as "other").
In terms of the brand "face" though, that role was largely filled by warriors of chaos who were highly iconic, extremely popular (regukarly the top selling faction), and featured heavily in marketing materials.
I know you said minor distinction but weren’t they both expelled by the colleges of magic. So doesn’t that make them the same? Or did I miss something in the lore? Well clearly I did, what more did I miss lol.
nathan2004 wrote: I know you said minor distinction but weren’t they both expelled by the colleges of magic. So doesn’t that make them the same? Or did I miss something in the lore? Well clearly I did, what more did I miss lol.
For what it's worth I know I've seen Hedge Wizard/Hedge Witch before.
Poking around it looks like an adaptation of a Hedge Priest, an ignorant unordained self-taught priest who practices under a hedge rather than a church.
nathan2004 wrote: I know you said minor distinction but weren’t they both expelled by the colleges of magic. So doesn’t that make them the same? Or did I miss something in the lore? Well clearly I did, what more did I miss lol.
At this point, the Colleges of Magic don't exist so there's nothing to get expelled from (and magic in the Empire is nominally illegal/heresy, though it sounds like that's only really enforced in the regions with a strong influence from the Sigmarite Church).
As to the distinction; Hedge Wizard in fantasy typically refers to a magical practitioner with a grass-roots style emphasis and no recognized formal training etc. Generally not very powerful or with lowkey spells. The local soothsayer or village wise woman or a wandering conjurer. It's not a prescriptive term but more conveys an idea of social status and a more organic, even self-taught adoption of magic.
Outcast implies that those Wizards are outright renegades or exiles and potentially have a higher degree of power/training (though obviously without the Colleges during this era, what that training would consist of is more nebulous). Should be noted that they're only available as part of the Bretonnian Exiles army list from their Arcane Journal, which only allows for a single Damsel, so they're not a part of the core Bretonnian roster.
It is a distinction, albeit there could be a degree of overlap.
Pretty sure the term "Hedge Wizard" features in the original 4th edition text for the Great War Against Chaos, when it tells the part about Teclis rolling up to the Empire with Finreir and Yrtle, and start training human magic users.
I fully admit to being biased as a fan of Bretonnia, but I always wondered why Bretonnian knights weren't the "Space Marines" of WFB.
You could have numerous armies themed to different dukedoms, crusades, exiles, etc. A feathery, pegasus themed Parravon army. A dark, bloody army based around Mousillon. Good knights and corrupted knights.
GW could potentially sell hundreds of different shields, helmets, pauldrons and other accessories. The only stumbling block I can see to them truly being "Space Marines" is Bretonnia's lack of ranged weapons and war machines.
Return_to_Bretonnia wrote: I fully admit to being biased as a fan of Bretonnia, but I always wondered why Bretonnian knights weren't the "Space Marines" of WFB.
You could have numerous armies themed to different dukedoms, crusades, exiles, etc. A feathery, pegasus themed Parravon army. A dark, bloody army based around Mousillon. Good knights and corrupted knights.
GW could potentially sell hundreds of different shields, helmets, pauldrons and other accessories. The only stumbling block I can see to them truly being "Space Marines" is Bretonnia's lack of ranged weapons and war machines.
I'm not sure the folk from Nottingham could live with themselves if they intentionally made French nobility the sole star of the game
Bretonnia, as it is now, is also something of a Johnny Come Lately to WHFB.
It did exist in the earlier editions, but more as a straight Medieval Knights Faction.
It wasn’t until…..5th? (Might be 6th, memory is old and hazy) that the more mystic elements came to be. And for the most part, the models lacked the trappings of Fantasy.
As I recall it started as the "these two sculpting brothers want to do medieval french - let them do it cause otherwise they aren't happy and we gotta keep them happy" project.
Got to say I read the old books on Bretonnia and the new one they published and honestly I really liked the tone of the new one a lot more. The early ones leaned a lot into how the nobility were really horrible to their serfs and underlings; meanwhile the new one retains that in a slightly more restricted sense (they are still lesser than you of course!) and focuses much more on the "horse lords" aspect which I actually felt was rather missing in the early books where the cavalry element was sort of there but in the background.
A few people down the decades have pushed the "why aren't Brets the face of the setting".
I feel the rub is partly that yes, GW didn't really try - but also as a faction its kind of limited. Do you like quasi-French Knights yes/no? (The fact they never really tried undermines the claim of "they were never that popular", because popularity is generally a function of GW marketing budget - but still.)
I mean if you like humans (...) then the Empire is right there - even if you want to focus heavily on knights.
If you were even more ruthless, if you like "cavalry" - then there's plenty of other factions in Fantasy that can kind of fill in for that. Chaos, all the elves, VCs if skele horses don't bother you, Orcs and Goblins if you don't care about horses at all etc etc.
I'm not sure Marines are quite the same. Sure if you split all the subfactions out, you get a lot of power armour. But its not as universal to almost every faction in 40k. But then maybe that's my own bias towards the Xenos factions that provide the light and shade.
Overread wrote: As I recall it started as the "these two sculpting brothers want to do medieval french - let them do it cause otherwise they aren't happy and we gotta keep them happy" project.
Got to say I read the old books on Bretonnia and the new one they published and honestly I really liked the tone of the new one a lot more. The early ones leaned a lot into how the nobility were really horrible to their serfs and underlings; meanwhile the new one retains that in a slightly more restricted sense (they are still lesser than you of course!) and focuses much more on the "horse lords" aspect which I actually felt was rather missing in the early books where the cavalry element was sort of there but in the background.
The original Bretonnian nobility were much more corrupt - closer to pre revolutionary France than the Arthurian style that they became in late 3rd/4th - then they became ultra grim dark /parody (Holy Grail - still seen in Total War) and it seems now going back to a middle place..
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Bretonnia, as it is now, is also something of a Johnny Come Lately to WHFB.
It did exist in the earlier editions, but more as a straight Medieval Knights Faction.
It wasn’t until…..5th? (Might be 6th, memory is old and hazy) that the more mystic elements came to be. And for the most part, the models lacked the trappings of Fantasy.
3rd was historical knights plus support troops - 4th is Arthurian style fantasy
4th was High Elf and Goblins, with cardboard standees?
If so, it was defo 5th that the refreshed Bretonnians arrived, as they didn’t get a 4th Ed Army book, but were in the 5th Ed boxed set along with Lizardmen?
5th was peak bretonia. It seemed like every other army across the table was full of wedges of noble knightly cheese. Very much the shining armor, questing for the grail, noble sort.
While Empire might be the nominal POV race, Brets were the SM of the era, where they were so pervasive you needed to be able to deal with them in the meta.
If so, it was defo 5th that the refreshed Bretonnians arrived, as they didn’t get a 4th Ed Army book, but were in the 5th Ed boxed set along with Lizardmen?
Correct. The Bretonnians' only appearance in 4th edition was in the 'get you by' army list pamphlet included in 4th, which was also the last appearance of Chaos Thugs.
Overread wrote:True, but these are models for the battlefield. Where the wizards are specifically encouraged to use their powers. So it makes sense that they'd be throwing fireballs and summoning aids and doing all the things that otherwise might get them burned at the stake.
"Good work in the battle there, Mr Wizard. Now report to Brother Magnus at the chapel for, um, 'debriefing'."
Space marines occupy a niche that Bretonnians don't.
People are only looking at the 'armoured elite' trope and ignoring a whole host of other things that marines have.
Marine chapters are individual, they each have their own stereotype they follow - mongolians, vikings, crusaders, romans etc.
Bretonnians are all just french. Their colours are on their tabards, they don't have enamelled armour that you can paint for each chapter.
Space marines are also superhuman, while only grail knights are. Anyone can be a knight and any army can have knights, just being an army of knights isn't special. They are more like storm troopers to guardsmen than marines.
This is why GW created the sigmarines, to deliberately design knights that DID follow the tropes of the space marines, but even then not exactly and still don't have the market capture that marines do.
Much of what we consider the modern Arthur myth was created by the french.
But the point is that there is not the cultural and thus aesthetic variation amongst the bretonnians that space marines have, which is one of the appeals of being able to create your own marine chapter.
No matter what knights you make, they're still bretonnians.
Nevelon wrote: 5th was peak bretonia. It seemed like every other army across the table was full of wedges of noble knightly cheese. Very much the shining armor, questing for the grail, noble sort.
While Empire might be the nominal POV race, Brets were the SM of the era, where they were so pervasive you needed to be able to deal with them in the meta.
Well, it does help player adoption when you're also the shiny new plastics in the affordable starter set gateway box for the edition as well.
Tyel wrote: Interesting how experience varied. My memories of 5th was lots of new players pushing bricks of Saurus and Skinks around.
Brets just never seemed as popular outside of a very committed fanbase. And once the 5th starter was history, they almost disappeared.
But yeah, I do think any fantasy faction would be the standard/most popular choice if it had been in every starter box like Marines always are.
Well, Lizardmen were the other half of the starter. But the side that was less popular locally. And to get them playable, you needed a slann, and those were a bear to build and paint. Where a lot of brets just had a guy with a fancy paint job in front.
Plus broken rules. Not that I’m bitter. But in an edition known as hero-hammer, they could have 75% of their list be characters, got extra bonus vow powers, easy rank bonuses where everyone could fight, etc.
Tyel wrote: Interesting how experience varied. My memories of 5th was lots of new players pushing bricks of Saurus and Skinks around.
Brets just never seemed as popular outside of a very committed fanbase. And once the 5th starter was history, they almost disappeared.
But yeah, I do think any fantasy faction would be the standard/most popular choice if it had been in every starter box like Marines always are.
Well, Lizardmen were the other half of the starter. But the side that was less popular locally. And to get them playable, you needed a slann, and those were a bear to build and paint. Where a lot of brets just had a guy with a fancy paint job in front.
Plus broken rules. Not that I’m bitter. But in an edition known as hero-hammer, they could have 75% of their list be characters, got extra bonus vow powers, easy rank bonuses where everyone could fight, etc.
There's a reason Lance Formation was called 'the Cheese Wedge'.
Carcassonne, Bordeleaux, Aquitaine, Montfort, couronne, lyonnesse... I could go on.
All reference to french cities, region, food specialty or just the french word for crown.
Well they clearly went for a more Celtic mystic setting in Albion to cover the Brittish isles analogy, and the chivalrous knights properly set in france anology.
According to the designers and writers of the Warhammer Fantasy universe, the Bretonnian army is based on medieval France, rather than England. The Bretonnians are a faction of knights and nobles who are inspired by the chivalric culture of medieval France, and their army is modeled after the armies of the French nobility during the High Middle Ages.
In an interview, Bryan Ansell, one of the co-founders of Games Workshop and a key designer of the Warhammer Fantasy universe, stated that the Bretonnians were intended to be a "French-inspired" faction, with a culture and aesthetic that was reminiscent of medieval France.
Similarly, Rick Priestley, another key designer of the Warhammer Fantasy universe, has stated that the Bretonnians were inspired by the chivalric romances of medieval France, such as the stories of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table.
The Bretonnians' armor, heraldry, and architecture are all inspired by medieval French culture, and their army is modeled after the armies of the French nobility during the High Middle Ages.
The Bretonnians' emphasis on chivalry, honor, and nobility is also reflective of the cultural values of medieval France.
To be honest, given the Crown hopping that went on? There’s not such a big difference between Medieval what would become France, and Medieval what would become England.
The irony though is that by incorporating the French chivalric romances about King Arthur, etc, what GW actually created was an army based on the medieval French perception of a legendary version of medieval Britain.
I keep getting impressed with how the old lore writers had exelent historical knowledge to build their fantasy around.
It makes the setting instantly recognisable and easy to relate to.
These days its more based on knowledge about what videogames the kids like.
lord_blackfang wrote: Bretonnians literally having snails on the sprue wasn't enough of a give away?
I mean, we are getting into the rabbit hole. The king was called Louen Leoncoeur, otherwise known as the Lionhearted. Clearly both English and French sources of mythology were used in the Bretts, and they also are intrinsically mixed in their origins as well.
Fayric wrote: I keep getting impressed with how the old lore writers had exelent historical knowledge to build their fantasy around.
It makes the setting instantly recognisable and easy to relate to.
These days its more based on knowledge about what videogames the kids like.
The forge world of Lucius is famed for the production of the super material luciun. i Iz WrItEr!
Fayric wrote: I keep getting impressed with how the old lore writers had exelent historical knowledge to build their fantasy around.
It makes the setting instantly recognisable and easy to relate to.
These days its more based on knowledge about what videogames the kids like.
My understanding is that Priestley and co were all history graduates and like all eager uni leavers, want to ply people with their knowledge as much as possible. It's this grounding in realworld history and warfare that has given all GW's settings a grounded feeling, a tangibility that makes them almost real.
Alas modern writers are mostly adult fans of Warhammer (AFW), so modern WFB and 40k are written more like fanfic than the historically-mined inspired stories of yore.
Tyel wrote: Interesting how experience varied. My memories of 5th was lots of new players pushing bricks of Saurus and Skinks around.
Brets just never seemed as popular outside of a very committed fanbase. And once the 5th starter was history, they almost disappeared.
But yeah, I do think any fantasy faction would be the standard/most popular choice if it had been in every starter box like Marines always are.
Well, Lizardmen were the other half of the starter. But the side that was less popular locally. And to get them playable, you needed a slann, and those were a bear to build and paint. Where a lot of brets just had a guy with a fancy paint job in front.
Plus broken rules. Not that I’m bitter. But in an edition known as hero-hammer, they could have 75% of their list be characters, got extra bonus vow powers, easy rank bonuses where everyone could fight, etc.
There's a reason Lance Formation was called 'the Cheese Wedge'.
I think he means that you can take Old World and basically impose a faux medieval/real world history view onto the setting and fill in all the gaps that the stories and art and such don't tell you.
Eg you can mentally picture how serfs in Bretonnia farm; what tools they have; the kind of crops; the clothes and so forth. Now of course this might all be utterly wrong on the specific details; but you don't need much information to create a fairly representative mental picture.
In stark contrast its very hard to do the same for Age of Sigmar. In fact trying to do so often creates a lot more questions than answers. What measures do farmers have to consider in a land where there are storms of rust particles; how do you gather water when the local lake is literal quicksilver (and save off the madness exposure causes). What happens when you wake up the land transformed from flat fields to a mountainside and how do you deal with it when it then becomes a craggy steppe a month later.
These are questions AoS thrusts at the casual reader and sadly GW don't really have the answers. It's an exciting amazing fantastical setting full of awesome magic oozing from every inch and full of epic elements - but its so epic and overdone that its hard to imagine how anything operates.
Fundamentally that's how the setting was made - it didn't have maps or nations; it didn't have ground rules or much in the way of structure by design. It was made as a massive catch-all setting where anything goes created by fans of modern epic fantasies who grew up on video games.
Fundamentally its a very different approach.
Now granted Old World gets a boost because it also based itself heavily on DnD and Tolkien so a lot of the heavy legwork was done; but still it was indeed just that bit more "grounded"
Hellebore wrote:It's this grounding in realworld... warfare that has given all GW's settings a grounded feeling
Wut.
Poor phrasing.
It feels.familiar and more real because it incorporates reality. Fictional world's break down at some point because the author can't write every little detail. Adopting wholesale history gives you a faux sense of weight and depth, completeness.
As overeead says, AoS fails at this because they tried to make a pure fantasy but that requires you create everything rather than rely on the familiar of real-world history to act as a surrogate.
It's a reason that urban fantasy and legends are so popular. By piggybacking all the boring reality stuff you get 'stolen' legitimacy and a connection t tangible things people experience making the fiction more believable.
I doubt it. They usually cut off webstore orders to arrive by Christmas on December 17. That's only 6 days away. Probably not until next year sometime.
nathan2004 wrote: Do you’ll think we will see empire drop in December? Man I hope not, I’m on holiday and dropping some money. Need some time to recover!
nathan2004 wrote: Do you’ll think we will see empire drop in December? Man I hope not, I’m on holiday and dropping some money. Need some time to recover!
I think we're looking at mid-to-late January, at a guess.
Afaik, release date is January 11.
So announcement on December 22 and start of preorders on December 28 would be my guess.
There were even price lists doing the rounds. So an imminent release is quite likely.
That old Korhil model to me was always one of the ugliest High Elf models with a face only a mother could love. Such an inelegant model for a high elf. I even like the slender 5th edition model better.
He's a very cool character, but I'm sad to see this model make a return, if the picture rings true.
Hm, according to internet, korhil was not captain of the white lions until his predesessor was killed during the battle of Finuval Plain in 2302, but a hero of great repute even before that.
And most importantly he was early on favoured by Finubar to join the kings bodyguard, and I know lots of people would love to see the young Phoenix King as a playable model, as he was indeed traveling the old world at the time of "the old world" setting.
Same as how the new pegasus in Bretonna shows up how old the rest of their horses are too. But its also a nice look at what models in the future updates will be like
It really does fit with that line of 7th/8th edition mounted character models, doesn't it. (Marius Leitdorf will always be a favorite model of mine!)
As much as i find that character on foot a ridiculous model, this one seems great! It is like the classic John Blanche painting has come alive. I will buy this just so i can paint it exatly like that painting.
Overread wrote: I think he means that you can take Old World and basically impose a faux medieval/real world history view onto the setting and fill in all the gaps that the stories and art and such don't tell you.
Eg you can mentally picture how serfs in Bretonnia farm; what tools they have; the kind of crops; the clothes and so forth. Now of course this might all be utterly wrong on the specific details; but you don't need much information to create a fairly representative mental picture.
In stark contrast its very hard to do the same for Age of Sigmar. In fact trying to do so often creates a lot more questions than answers. What measures do farmers have to consider in a land where there are storms of rust particles; how do you gather water when the local lake is literal quicksilver (and save off the madness exposure causes). What happens when you wake up the land transformed from flat fields to a mountainside and how do you deal with it when it then becomes a craggy steppe a month later.
These are questions AoS thrusts at the casual reader and sadly GW don't really have the answers. It's an exciting amazing fantastical setting full of awesome magic oozing from every inch and full of epic elements - but its so epic and overdone that its hard to imagine how anything operates.
Fundamentally that's how the setting was made - it didn't have maps or nations; it didn't have ground rules or much in the way of structure by design. It was made as a massive catch-all setting where anything goes created by fans of modern epic fantasies who grew up on video games.
Fundamentally its a very different approach.
Now granted Old World gets a boost because it also based itself heavily on DnD and Tolkien so a lot of the heavy legwork was done; but still it was indeed just that bit more "grounded"
Age of Sigmar should have just gone ahead and from the start have some sort of magic focus widget that the Stormcast would introduce after establishing a beachhead on a Realm, that forces the land into a "normality" where everything within "x" distance becomes arable and stable land. Boom. Little pockets of "Old World" surrounded by the natural raging craziness of the realm they are on. The stronger the Stormcast presence, the greater the area affected, or as they travel, they put up new focii that link back to the main one to form chains of conquered land.
I think it would have given the setting the same draw as the Old World taps into- a sense of normalcy that can be related to by the players. Like a reverse of what the Chaos Gate does in the north pole of the Old World.
Overread wrote: I think he means that you can take Old World and basically impose a faux medieval/real world history view onto the setting and fill in all the gaps that the stories and art and such don't tell you.
Eg you can mentally picture how serfs in Bretonnia farm; what tools they have; the kind of crops; the clothes and so forth. Now of course this might all be utterly wrong on the specific details; but you don't need much information to create a fairly representative mental picture.
In stark contrast its very hard to do the same for Age of Sigmar. In fact trying to do so often creates a lot more questions than answers. What measures do farmers have to consider in a land where there are storms of rust particles; how do you gather water when the local lake is literal quicksilver (and save off the madness exposure causes). What happens when you wake up the land transformed from flat fields to a mountainside and how do you deal with it when it then becomes a craggy steppe a month later.
These are questions AoS thrusts at the casual reader and sadly GW don't really have the answers. It's an exciting amazing fantastical setting full of awesome magic oozing from every inch and full of epic elements - but its so epic and overdone that its hard to imagine how anything operates.
Fundamentally that's how the setting was made - it didn't have maps or nations; it didn't have ground rules or much in the way of structure by design. It was made as a massive catch-all setting where anything goes created by fans of modern epic fantasies who grew up on video games.
Fundamentally its a very different approach.
Now granted Old World gets a boost because it also based itself heavily on DnD and Tolkien so a lot of the heavy legwork was done; but still it was indeed just that bit more "grounded"
Age of Sigmar should have just gone ahead and from the start have some sort of magic focus widget that the Stormcast would introduce after establishing a beachhead on a Realm, that forces the land into a "normality" where everything within "x" distance becomes arable and stable land. Boom. Little pockets of "Old World" surrounded by the natural raging craziness of the realm they are on. The stronger the Stormcast presence, the greater the area affected, or as they travel, they put up new focii that link back to the main one to form chains of conquered land.
I think it would have given the setting the same draw as the Old World taps into- a sense of normalcy that can be related to by the players. Like a reverse of what the Chaos Gate does in the north pole of the Old World.
Actually a really neat concept, espevially if the normalized areas were parts of the old whfb map, like shards of the wprld that was reformed in the mortal realms
Eh one of the things that annoys with with AoS is how GW tries to on the one hand say that its been thousands of years until the Age of Sigmar with 400 years of reality and civilization destroying Chaos right before - and yet people actually know the Old World was a thing.
In reality Gotrek should sound insane to anyone who isn't a Stormcast when talking about a "world before". Only the Gods should recall it with any clarity. Not even elves or Dwarves remember it and Soulblight only recall what they can through the twisted memory of Nagash (and that's only, again, a literal handful he remade).
Again AoS trips up in that its not a lore created by lore fans its a product setting that had some loose concepts thrown over it. I also lament the loss of Josh Reynolds - he felt like he really "got" the setting and was putting his mark on it. Meanwhile a lot of BL's best are wrapped up with 40/30K writing.
It would be neat if GW could "normalise the realms". Heck perhaps someone casts a "Spell of unification" and the realms start to blend into each other; mixing up so that the extreme wildness of each one is present but now mixed and muted. Skaven basically just did that with a chunk of their realm smashing into the Fire Realm.
I don't think it will happen cause too much is built on realmgates and things like the Eightpoints.
Yeah, it really speaks volumes to the Old World setting that there are several different rank-n-flank games out there, and most players try their hand at just using them to play their own vision of the Warhammer World, rather than something like The Forgotten Realms.
Accessibility is key, and having a historic setting which everyone knows from school and were plenty of movies are around, combined with magic that again everyone know from somewhere else (be it school or lord of the rings) makes people familiar with the setting without them ever reading anything about except the backcover of the army book
This is also important with unit names, everyone knows what to expect from Grail Knights, State Troops, Battle Wizard, elfen spearman or dwarf miners
No one knows what a Vindictor should look like without reading it.
The same with 40k to a point, and a reason why the exotic new names never really connected with people who know the old ones
Your Space Vikings, you know what to expect, Catachan Jungle Warrior as well, from Intercessors not so much.
They only problem with Warhammer in that case was that its main advantage was also its disadvantage
It was popular in Europe because you had the choice and flavour of detailed history based factions and you know about the history of the Empire with just looking at the time table as everything there was a topic in school.
The further away from England a faction was, the mote stereotype it becomes and everything is merged into one thing without the detailed historical background.
Like there is detailed background for England, Ireland, France, Spain, Italy and Central Europe in Fantasy, while parts of central Europe, eastern Europe and Asia are merged into a single faction, same for everything in south and middle America without actual history involved but just filled with stereotypes
chaos0xomega wrote: Actually a really neat concept, espevially if the normalized areas were parts of the old whfb map, like shards of the wprld that was reformed in the mortal realms
Sure would solve the "Mortal Realms are too large for me to give a gak about any specific location" problem.
kodos wrote: Accessibility is key, and having a historic setting which everyone knows from school and were plenty of movies are around, combined with magic that again everyone know from somewhere else (be it school or lord of the rings) makes people familiar with the setting without them ever reading anything about except the backcover of the army book
This is also important with unit names, everyone knows what to expect from Grail Knights, State Troops, Battle Wizard, elfen spearman or dwarf miners
No one knows what a Vindictor should look like without reading it.
The same with 40k to a point, and a reason why the exotic new names never really connected with people who know the old ones
Your Space Vikings, you know what to expect, Catachan Jungle Warrior as well, from Intercessors not so much.
They only problem with Warhammer in that case was that its main advantage was also its disadvantage
It was popular in Europe because you had the choice and flavour of detailed history based factions and you know about the history of the Empire with just looking at the time table as everything there was a topic in school.
The further away from England a faction was, the mote stereotype it becomes and everything is merged into one thing without the detailed historical background.
Like there is detailed background for England, Ireland, France, Spain, Italy and Central Europe in Fantasy, while parts of central Europe, eastern Europe and Asia are merged into a single faction, same for everything in south and middle America without actual history involved but just filled with stereotypes
Eh even the European based warhammer factions are loaded with stereo types coming out their ears. I think if GW hadn't basically ignored Old World for ages and then done the whole AoS pathway we'd likely already be onto Cathay and Nippon forces right now.
Exotic names though can 100% be a game barrier. It's one reason I've never fully got on with the Shogun Total War games. The unit names can sometimes be tricky to work out just what the units role is without having to dive into all their stat lines and such.
The one mentioned that the realms are endless and have no points of interest. 2nd edition was basically a soft reboot of the worldbuilding and did away with the "everything is magic all the time" aspect. The realms are functionally endless, the areas fit for mortal habitation aren't.
Nah, based on the Knights Panther cover for White Dwarf 83 by John Blanche
That's the one!
I only saw it in black and white in some later publication, it looks even better in color.
Angronsrosycheeks wrote: The one mentioned that the realms are endless and have no points of interest. 2nd edition was basically a soft reboot of the worldbuilding and did away with the "everything is magic all the time" aspect. The realms are functionally endless, the areas fit for mortal habitation aren't.
The areas fit for mortal habitation are still, for each realm, BIGGER than the Old World entire map by many times over. GW have produced maps of the core regions but they are sketchy things. Again you can have whole nations get wiped out in AoS and its a drop in the ocean.
They basically made an entire setting of 8 realms each the size of the Imperium of Man. It's just so mindbogglingly huge its hard to really put everything together.
In Old World if Nuln came under attack or was lost you could really feel it as having a dramatic impact on the setting. Meanwhile the Boarder Princes you knew could come and go all the time with "no name" leaders; but also that their kingdoms were small. That they were in a very specific region of the world and contained. It was an eb and flow that was within easy imagination.
Again AoS dials everything to 12, forget 11 everything is on 12. Some of that is really utterly cool and amazing; but so much of it is just hard to work out how it all - you know "works" as a setting.
Heck one of my favourite books in AoS is Pestilens (not the codex the book) which features whole cities built on the backs of VAST beasts walking over insanely huge landscapes. That's freaking epic and amazing and awesome. If it were in Old World it would be a major point of the setting/races/factions and region. There'd be artwork, stories and more.
In AoS its within that 1 book and then never really touched on again because its jumping to a region where mountains form out of fields in a day or to a metal realm with quicksilverlackes and storms of rust or to a Shadow realm so shaded and dark that its like living in an eternal London Smog. They are all really cool ideas, but because there's so much going on in so many places and all on the epic scale there isn't time to dig into them.
In a way the setting is like a hyperactive child after they've just woken up and eaten a bucket of sweets - its bouncing off the walls energetic and erratic and hyperactive
In Old World, if Nuln was attacked, nothing changed because Nuln was not allowed to fall. In practice Nuln had all the strategic value of a piece of empty desert in Shyish in AoS, because nothing could change in "current day" Old World as depicted in Warhammer army books (until the End Times and we all know how that was received even before it blew up the world).
I don't think there is a point in rehashing the discussion again- AoS added reasons why strategic locations are strategic and how humans and elves live in a universe full of weird magic over the course of its lifespan. If the reasons given are enough for you is down to personal preference purely.
Angronsrosycheeks wrote: In Old World, if Nuln was attacked, nothing changed because Nuln was not allowed to fall. In practice Nuln had all the strategic value of a piece of empty desert in Shyish in AoS, because nothing could change in "current day" Old World as depicted in Warhammer army books (until the End Times and we all know how that was received even before it blew up the world).
I don't think there is a point in rehashing the discussion again- AoS added reasons why strategic locations are strategic and how humans and elves live in a universe full of weird magic over the course of its lifespan. If the reasons given are enough for you is down to personal preference purely.
I'm not really familiar with the lore to the Old World, is this a reboot to WHFB, a continuation (as if there was no End Times), or something else altogether?
Angronsrosycheeks wrote: In Old World, if Nuln was attacked, nothing changed because Nuln was not allowed to fall. In practice Nuln had all the strategic value of a piece of empty desert in Shyish in AoS, because nothing could change in "current day" Old World as depicted in Warhammer army books (until the End Times and we all know how that was received even before it blew up the world).
I don't think there is a point in rehashing the discussion again- AoS added reasons why strategic locations are strategic and how humans and elves live in a universe full of weird magic over the course of its lifespan. If the reasons given are enough for you is down to personal preference purely.
I think the issue I have is that things in AOS are relatively new and the realms are so unexplored that when things do happen, it still doesn't feel impactful. Anvilgard fell to Morathi and became Har Kuron, but unless you had an Anvilgard colorscheme force, nothing really happened. The actual important locations, the Eightpoints, Hammerhal, etc., will likely be the new Nulns. They may come close to being conquered, but are unlikely to have any real changes to the status quo.
AOS having a moving timeline also means that it feels like so much happens in a short timeframe; the stormcast are released and end the Age of Chaos, the Necroquake happened and Nighthaunt swarmed the realms, only for the Rite of Life to happen, which free Kragnos only for him to teleport away, and now the Skaven are out en masse. So many realm-shaking events, but I couldn't tell you whether this happened over decades or centuries or mere years apart. We've got human characters that pop up in certain events that don't really age, so maybe it wasn't that long. I get that it's a fantasy setting, but does everyone have magic elixirs to extend their lives, or amulets, or are actually undead things like the Pontifex?
Angronsrosycheeks wrote: In Old World, if Nuln was attacked, nothing changed because Nuln was not allowed to fall. In practice Nuln had all the strategic value of a piece of empty desert in Shyish in AoS, because nothing could change in "current day" Old World as depicted in Warhammer army books (until the End Times and we all know how that was received even before it blew up the world).
I mean, this is going to be true in The Old World setting, as well. Any city or region that has something noteworthy happen to it, has to mesh up with the original Warhammer "future", or things get wonky.
Any setting is going to fall prey to this. You could have a rocking wargame set in Faerun of the Forgotten Realms, but everyone knows nothing apocalyptic is going to happen to Waterdeep, or Baldur's Gate, etc.
Angronsrosycheeks wrote: In Old World, if Nuln was attacked, nothing changed because Nuln was not allowed to fall. In practice Nuln had all the strategic value of a piece of empty desert in Shyish in AoS, because nothing could change in "current day" Old World as depicted in Warhammer army books (until the End Times and we all know how that was received even before it blew up the world).
You discount it's worth despite it being the source of the much vaunted titular oil? Heresy indeed...
It's generally lovely but I wish so much that GW didn't insist on throwing acres of ornamentation on the horse armour for Empire models. Just makes the whole thing a mess visually.
considering the point has come up, it's probably not a bad idea to include the size comparison the the Empire knights:
Spoiler:
It's a pretty model for sure.
To be fair, it will match up scale-wise with the (relatively) more recent Empire range from 7th/8th period. It's the lack of update for the 6th edition knights themselves (and their much older steeds) that's going to make them stick out (or not as the case may be as they're dwarfed by the giants around them). That comparison is going to be even more pronounced, as it is in the article, next to the previous Panther Grandmaster given that model is from even earlier.
The Phazer wrote: Better photos definitely help it. I also think it would benefit a lot from a 360 view. Shame GW don't do those any more.
It does. Just not during preorder week. Or even very soon after that. I guess it’s less of a priority for them now.
Presumably because it makes stereoscopic 3D modelling trivial for people who want to create a 3D print.
The Phazer wrote: Better photos definitely help it. I also think it would benefit a lot from a 360 view. Shame GW don't do those any more.
It does. Just not during preorder week. Or even very soon after that. I guess it’s less of a priority for them now.
Presumably because it makes stereoscopic 3D modelling trivial for people who want to create a 3D print.
Oh, they've started again, I thought they had stopped entirely post website debacle.
So that journal looks decidedly 'meh'. The two characters really do not feel all the special or good, the knight templar armies seem...well aweful really. Nuln seems fine, but it's a gunline army so not much fun to play against. Teutogen Guard seem to be the real winners though.
Empire as a faction have never really appealed to me, but I could see some fun in building and painting an army with like ~1300 points of War Wagons (mounting characters to get over the 1k) and Ogres using the something like the Wargames Atlantic Landsknecht Ogres.
Baragash wrote: Empire as a faction have never really appealed to me, but I could see some fun in building and painting an army with like ~1300 points of War Wagons (mounting characters to get over the 1k) and Ogres using the something like the Wargames Atlantic Landsknecht Ogres.
I had exactly the same thought. Lots of wagons and ogres!! the problem is core
They really need to make new Empire knights. The current models were outdated decades ago when I last player FB. They will look really silly next to this new character.
Perhaps one could use the AOS Cities of Sigmar knights? They have somewhat different aesthetic, but still look empirey. (Though their necks are weird).
You can say that for a LOT (basically all) the old models in Old World. I'm 100% sure that so long as it continues to sell well we will see updates come.
Whilst sales remain its a when not if; but it could be a long wait for some armies. The big risk is that GW starts adding more and more and more factions.
Cathay and Kislev should be added; they got marketed and advertised and people expect them to appear with brand new shiny armies of models.
But after that I really hope they don't add any more and focus purely on updating old armies to new model sculpts.
Overread wrote: You can say that for a LOT (basically all) the old models in Old World. I'm 100% sure that so long as it continues to sell well we will see updates come.
Yeah, but here it is just not the design that is outdated, it is the scale. The knight horses are tiny compared to the pistolier horses, which is just wrong and weird.
Overread wrote: You can say that for a LOT (basically all) the old models in Old World. I'm 100% sure that so long as it continues to sell well we will see updates come.
Whilst sales remain its a when not if; but it could be a long wait for some armies. The big risk is that GW starts adding more and more and more factions.
Cathay and Kislev should be added; they got marketed and advertised and people expect them to appear with brand new shiny armies of models.
But after that I really hope they don't add any more and focus purely on updating old armies to new model sculpts.
I'll second that. I'm excited to see what they have for Cathay and Kislev but after that I'd love to see some updated models the other Old World ranges. Sadly, at the moment, the only GW models I have purchased or will purchase for use in the Old World are ones that are, so far as GW are concerned, part of the AoS range. Those being various seraphon/ lizardmen kits. If GW are judging the success of the game on sales of Old World only models then it will look like a failure based on my purchases, when I have no real intention of using the models for AoS, only for Old World. I hope they're smart enough to see that people are using their AoS models for Old World and don't can the project based on false information.
I had hoped that they would start with new models for TK and Brets when they released, but sadly that didn't happen and every new army book has been accompanied by only a small number of new models, so I'm compelled to purchase 3rd party or AoS models for the game instead.
I've got most of my 2000 point lizardman army built, I've started painting some saurus and I'm starting my temple guard conversions this week. After I'm done with the army next year, I'll be moving on to tomb kings, but because GW didn't give any real love to the range that will be all 3D prints, except for a few models from my old collection. Hopefully they will get round to releasing some refreshed Old World lines by the time I'm done with the Tomb Kings, otherwise I'll be looking at more 3rd party or AoS models for my next project.
Main problem with the Empire is that the older models not released for TOW aged better than the in-between ones
old metal knights look better than the plastics, old state troops better than the new ones and so on
and while for something like Tomb Kings you could argue with nostalgia, the nostalgic Empire models are the ones before those that were released
They haven't released new Failcast for quite some time and are phasing it out in most systems. You might be thinking of FW resin, which is something else entirely.
Is really cool to see special rules for the knightly orders. When you think Empire you think of state troops and gunpowder, but the knightly orders are really important in the fluff around the Empire.
I admit I didnt expect them to focus on knights, and would rather have seen some synnergy rules and/or orders for state troop regiments, but this is fun for a regiment of renown.
They haven't released new Failcast for quite some time and are phasing it out in most systems. You might be thinking of FW resin, which is something else entirely.
Overread wrote: You can say that for a LOT (basically all) the old models in Old World. I'm 100% sure that so long as it continues to sell well we will see updates come.
Yeah, but here it is just not the design that is outdated, it is the scale. The knight horses are tiny compared to the pistolier horses, which is just wrong and weird.
They're not tiny. They're horses with a lowered chassis. Just paint them hot pink and add undercarriage neon lights and that'll take care of that problem.
...
The thing with GW bringing back the Fantasy ranges that existed prior to End Times (with all the necessary caveats about AoS-related oddities and made to order nostalgia bait) is that some models are ten years old, others twenty, yet others thirty years old. And you can see the difference. High Elves in the Old World will come to face the same issue High Elves in 8th ed Fantasy had. You have your shiny state of the art Sea Guard right next to the ham-fisted, clown-shoed Spearmen from the last century and it'll look exactly as bad as it sounds.
It's the reason my interest in Old World died with the announcement that GW was going to bring back the sucky Tomb Kings skeletons. It just perpetuates the same old problem. I'm not suddenly going to spend money on models that didn't get me to open my wallet twenty years ago. I had a box of those skeletons in the 90s, purely for conversion purposes. And they sucked even then.
It'll be interesting to see if Old World actually gets some decent investment and new plastic kits once all the factions get their old stuff back. I certainly hope so.
It makes it ironic the one Old World army to get a new unit (Bret foot knights, I don't think there was another) is the one in which it breaks range coherency. Other than that the entire Bret range was from the same release (in terms of plastic units). They definitely should have had a thought about what era they wanted to release and then fill in the gaps that existed (for a particular army, too much to do it across game). For example, if they weren't going to redo the empire knights they should have left out the demigryphs and used the old foot soldiers from 6th. Or just redo the knights to match the rest of the 8th range.
P.s., I'm still waiting for a MTO of 5th Ed Brets, whereupon I will have to remortgage my house.
The game will live or die by sales and nothing will be redone if people stop buying (I haven't because I want the game to be successful and I like some of the older stuff).
3d print all you want but if enough people do it, we will have a dead game again and be back to playing the fan made crap or Kings.
100% nostalgia
Creating the very same situation as back in the old days were people argu we must sacrifice our money to GW in hope they answer and redo everything so we can buy it again
While those who want to play use alternatives anyway as a full army is way to expensive and the models even if redone not in their interest
And than there is still the problem that GW might think in different ways, like if everything sells but Knights the conclusion might be people don't like Knights for Empire because it is about Infantry and not cavalry
And we are already in the same situation as back in the old days.
Rules already need an update, everyone using house rules and balance is all over the place giving new players the options to only use half of the army boxes they buy
The whole thing is just to collect models and if you want to really play you are better off with 6th Edi, one of the community rules or kings
nathan2004 wrote: The game will live or die by sales and nothing will be redone if people stop buying (I haven't because I want the game to be successful and I like some of the older stuff).
3d print all you want but if enough people do it, we will have a dead game again and be back to playing the fan made crap or Kings.
But the game is still there, no one is taking it from you, it's already in the open, why would you be back to playing the fan made crap? Or maybe the game isn't strong enough to stand on its own? Then why is it the fan made stuff that is crap?
Kid_Kyoto wrote: The problem is if something sells, then there's no need to redo. And if it doesn't sell, then there's no interest so why redo it.
You'd have to have a situation where like everything for the Empire sells except the Knoghts for someone to think seriously about remaking them.
Actually we have ample proof over the years that old models and armies without updates don't sell well and that modern updates translates into big sales spikes.
I'm sure GW know that Old World is in a bubble right now and riding both a nostalgia train and a "this was taken away and I wasn't able to get it now I can" bubble.
BOTH of those will burst at some point and I suspect it will be as soon as Old World gets new armies with modern models. GW has also released new models alongside old for each of the re-released armies. We can 100% see that GW will follow the same product pattern for all their other games and will steadily update. Old World is just different because it took a long break being on the market and because it was a huge gamble that it could work as a product alongside GW's other brand AoS. Esp when both brands are using models developed under the same brand design structure.
So yeah Old World was a gamble and a risk - but it seems to have worked. Plus GW today has a healthier attitude toward spreading its resources over many games instead of focusing only on the biggest selling product lines.
I think the outlook is positive that we'll see updates. Afterall GW can't maintain a brand on nostalgia alone; they want young, new gamers getting into their games.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: The problem is if something sells, then there's no need to redo. And if it doesn't sell, then there's no interest so why redo it.
You'd have to have a situation where like everything for the Empire sells except the Knoghts for someone to think seriously about remaking them.
Not really. New shiny syndrome is a thing. GW has been resculpting kits since time immemorial and every time they do people go out and buy the resculpted versions of kits they already own like suckers.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: The problem is if something sells, then there's no need to redo. And if it doesn't sell, then there's no interest so why redo it.
You'd have to have a situation where like everything for the Empire sells except the Knoghts for someone to think seriously about remaking them.
Not really. New shiny syndrome is a thing. GW has been resculpting kits since time immemorial and every time they do people go out and buy the resculpted versions of kits they already own like suckers.
Lets face it - over the years GW has pushed improving their sculpting. Whilst you can debate if some directions are the right one or not; GW has always aimed at general improvement.
So yeah new models generally make an aim to improve on the old. Remember when the old Ork Gretchen was almost 1 pose with his gun held across his chest and that was pretty much it. And the ork with bolter might let you repose the arm but it was only up or down at the shoulder.
New customers get the new stuff; old customers rebuy because it looks cool and they can keep their old stuff too and everyone wins
Actually we have ample proof over the years that old models and armies without updates don't sell well and that modern updates translates into big sales spikes.
I'm sure GW know that Old World is in a bubble right now and riding both a nostalgia train and a "this was taken away and I wasn't able to get it now I can" bubble.
BOTH of those will burst at some point and I suspect it will be as soon as Old World gets new armies with modern models. GW has also released new models alongside old for each of the re-released armies. We can 100% see that GW will follow the same product pattern for all their other games and will steadily update. Old World is just different because it took a long break being on the market and because it was a huge gamble that it could work as a product alongside GW's other brand AoS. Esp when both brands are using models developed under the same brand design structure.
So yeah Old World was a gamble and a risk - but it seems to have worked. Plus GW today has a healthier attitude toward spreading its resources over many games instead of focusing only on the biggest selling product lines.
I think the outlook is positive that we'll see updates. Afterall GW can't maintain a brand on nostalgia alone; they want young, new gamers getting into their games.
going with the latest WarCom article, they are fully aware that this is a bubble and don't expect anything after the release
from the article regarding the War Wagon:
Because it’s Made to Order, it guarantees that everyone who orders one will receive it, even if it takes a little while to fulfil every purchase. We feel that this is the best way to ensure that everyone who has ever wanted to own this classic miniature can do just that.
this isn't something about people in future might start an Empire army and want to pick that model up, this is that they expect that everyone who will ever want one will buy it now and no sales after that
Those are the made-to-order specials released alongside new armies. And yes those are 100% bubbled releases. However the important thing is that the core of each army is staying in regular production.
That regular production army is the longer bubble that's just going to steadily grow and wait for new models.
Now I will agree there's a good chances totally brand new gamers are drawn into AoS and I could see that AoS might end up with a higher percentage of younger games VS Old World.
However I still think GW are looking beyond season 1. Edition 2 of Old World is very likely to come with loads of updated models as a core focus along with the brand new armies they teased right at the start. In fact I'd argue if a 2.0 edition comes along and Cathay and/or Kisleve aren't in the boxed set starter then that might damage its sales.
At the 2.0 mark should be where GW goes "ok the old stuff sold well now we invest more into it like any other regular game we make"
and sculpted eyebrows on a mini!
