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I've done a ridiculous amount of number crunching for the IG and come up with a "core list" so to speak that is just grand for taking on any number of opponents, but primarily focused on crushing the current metagame kings: Daemons, Lash/Oblit spam, Eldar Bikes, Nob Bikes. Because if you can beat these guys, you can beat anyone, right? Yeah, pretty much.

Company Command Squad + Astropath + Officer of the Fleet
110 pts

Psychic Battle Squad (7 psykers) + Chimera
145 pts

DH Inquisitor + 2 Mystics
32 pts

Hydra Flak Tankx3
225 pts

Vendettax3
390 pts

Total: 902 pts

902 points that counter the main strengths of each "top list" while allowing enough points and slots to let you customize however you want. Fill with Russ tanks, fill with Hound tanks, fill with guys or vets or conscripts or whatever, it'll be effective. Some lists will be more effective than others, and some will be more or less easy or interesting to play than others. This is an optimized template to build around; personalize it however you want.

Against Daemons:
I'm working on the assumption that you've taken at least one Leman Russ with plasma sponsons. The variety is irrelevant as long as you've got one with plasma sponsons, although blasts are more effective than shots at just about any point level (I strongly favor the Demolisher or Plasma Executioner).

The high points of the list are that demons cannot deep strike near you (mystical kapwn), and they can't rely on 75% of their army on turn 2. For two turns, 100% of your army shoots at 50%-62.5% of their army, and they either choose to die on arrival or footslog for 2 turns.

What about Kairos Daemonbomb? If Kairos takes a wound, he has to make a Ld test or "die". On the turn he arrives, shoot him with the Hydras and, if necessary, the Vendis. It's a statistical near-certainty that you will deal at least 1 wound to him even past his 3++ reroll. When you have a psychic squad that can reduce his leadership to 2, wave bye-bye to the 333 point chicken as he flies back off the board.

To review: Penalizing reserves and ability to shoot deep strikers on landing > deep striking armies that need good reserve rolls. 333 point lynchpin models don't work when they "die" after taking 1 wound.

Lash/Oblit spam:
The CCS and Mystics force the Oblits to stay on the table which guarantees they're shooting with lascannons instead of meltas for the entire game. Unless, of course, your buddy is willing to Run his oblits. If you're going first, put everything on the table and vaporize the biggest Oblit squad with the Vendis. If you're going second, leave Vendis in reserve and bring them on with a 3+ to vaporize the biggest Oblit squad. Even if they're in cover, you will do 2.8 wounds on average. Cripple his rhinos or kill the DP with the hydras and then just play keep away because there's nothing in your core that's lashable or worth lashing. CCS can hide out of sight pretty easily, and the Inq+Mystics can hide ridiculously easily behind tanks. Park the Chimera sideways in front of the Hydras to completely obscure at least 1; due to allocation rules, if you conceal 100% of the facing of one vehicle, then you can claim a 3+ cover save on any one shot that hits the squadron. Is it cheese? Who cares, it's not illegal, and you're playing a Lash+Oblit cock anyways. If his Lasher is a sorcerer in a non-fearless unit, hit them with the psykers to drop their leadership to 2 and kill just enough to force a leadership/fallback roll. Now you're the dick throwing his sorcerer off the table.

To review: AV12 TL Lascannon Platforms with scout > T4 lascannon platforms with S&P. Cover and allocation cheese in vehicle squadrons > gunline.

Eldar Bikes:

This is the hardest one to beat, in my opinion. It's going to require more ability on the part of the IG player, and I would definitely suggest taking a DH Inq Lord instead of the basic Inq to get a psychic hood. Limiting rerolls and ignoring modifiers are going to be what wins you this one. Hydras ignore bike cover saves and SMF and Vendettas will pummel to death any skimmer that *doesn't* move fast. You can actually use Eldar vehicle mobility against them by forcing your enemy to keep moving around in order to limit the horrible things you can do if he stands still. It'll be a hard fight, but an even fight, which is more than most armies can say fighting speedy Eldar.

To review: The strengths of Eldar are [choosing when to apply] speed and rerolls. Vendettas force their skimmers to keep speeding, and Hydras negate skimmer cover. If you do choose an Inq Lord, you can further negate Fortune rerolls. Good luck!

Nob Bikes

It's a one dimensional army based around wound allocation and winning close combats. IG can smash them so hard they won't even be in the metagame in a year. Vendettas shoot a squad. 5.6 shots wound. One will be put on the Warboss, the others will be put on throwaway bikes. Your Vendettas will kill ~2 bikes by themselves; it's up to the rest of your army to kill one more. Now that you've dealt 25% shooting casualties, hit them with the -7 Leadership nuke from your safely ensconced Psychic Choir and watch a 750 point Bike squad run off the board. Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat. Yeah, some bikes will get to your line, and some of your stuff will die, but again, math and averages are on your side.

Hopefully this analysis is enough to help you out. It's not tailored to take on one list and WTFPWN; it's a take-all-comers that should serve you well regardless of your metagame. If you have suggestions or play experience, please throw them out there because field tests are useful!

Thanks Sour Clams! It will be different in a couple of months when I start to fear the IG.

I'm actually thinking that once we start getting into the refined tournament guard lists (much like we are now with Dual Lash/Nob Bikers/etc. ) we'll be seeing a lot of Dual CCS each with Officers of the Fleet. This may be a YMDC ruling, but I don't see anything in what I've read to say that you can't have a OotF in each CCS and I also haven't seen anything to say that their effects aren't cumulative. -2 from your opponents reserve rolls? That will suck for them. And consequently, to combat those other IG armies out there with this build, you'll also have to take a mandatory 2 Astropaths to cancel out the reserve roll penalty from your opponent.

Sourclams, you are an evil bastard. I appreciate it. A very solid seeming list.

I think you're right on about most of this, but I question the notion that the Hydras are now a "core" unit that belongs in every tournament-style list.

The Hydra is competing directly against the Griffon for a HS slot, and is similar to a 75 point 3x AC squad which counts as troops. These units obviously don't have the Hydras 72" range or anti-skimmer abilities, but they do have other advantages that make them useful against a wider range of enemies.

The Hydra is a neat unit, and I plan to proxy one and test it, but it's not clear to me that 3x Hydras are mandatory, or even particularly wise.

Nob Bikes

How about 3 Manticores shoot a squad? 3x D3 insta-killing AP4 pie plates should annihilate them all in one go.

I hear what you're saying. I've had the exact same thoughts myself. Here's why I came to the conclusion I did:

AC squads cost the same amount, have bad leadership that barely benefits from orders, and die just like normal infantry, worse with 2 wound models against high T. The strength of the Guard in 5th is that you don't need to make a single unit vulnerable to small arms fire if you don't want to. The Hydra also gets a free heavy flamer; AC squads cannot act as counterassault units whereas three hydras tank shocking 30 Orks into a ball are going to kill 30 Orks.

HS slots: You can fit all the tanks you want into 2 HS slots. If you're taking Griffolossus combos, you don't need more than 2. If you're taking Leman Russes, you can't afford more than 2. Filling all 3 slots with infantry-killing tanks will let you OMGWTFPWNBBQ infantry hordes, but you will have problems against light and/or fast mech.

The Hydra is a balanced gun platform. That's why it fits into a balanced list. Thank you for your comments, though, I'm certain there's a lot of people on the fence about the Hydra.

How about 3 Manticores shoot a squad? 3x D3 insta-killing AP4 pie plates should annihilate them all in one go.

Manticores would fit very well into the 900 point core. But taking 3 at the exclusion of any other Heavy slot? What happens if you don't get first turn? Bikes turboboost to within your 24" kill bubble and... what? They're also harder to hide and therefore easier prey for a single shot than partly obscured vehicle squadrons.

But taking 3 at the exclusion of any other Heavy slot? What happens if you don't get first turn? Bikes turboboost to within your 24" kill bubble and... what? They're also harder to hide and therefore easier prey for a single shot than partly obscured vehicle squadrons.

I don't know mate I haven't started making any IG lists yet but the Manticore seems simply insanely good to me.

So put 2 in the list, and let your Vendettas and Hydra battery deal with mech. Is that third Manticore really going to kill so much more than the first two?

This is, after all, a template:

902 points that counter the main strengths of each "top list" while allowing enough points and slots to let you customize however you want. Fill with Russ tanks, fill with Hound tanks, fill with guys or vets or conscripts or whatever, it'll be effective. Some lists will be more effective than others, and some will be more or less easy or interesting to play than others. This is an optimized template to build around; personalize it however you want.

Not to mention the fact that you only get 4 turns worth of firing with the Manticore. I want to pay points for a vehicle that can fire every turn out to the last.

@sourclams - what are your thoughts on the dual CCS I proposed?

I do not think they are "core", primarily because of the Inquisitor Lord with psychic hood, but it's such a small investment with such a significant impact on the armies that do rely on reserves that yeah, if you've got 80 more points to spare.... why not?

Wow, thanks for doing this. I'm delighted to have an in-depth tactical analysis from you.

Eldar Jetbikes have 3+ armor; Hydras don't do anything special to them, as they don't rely on their cover saves against AP4 weapons.

Several of your tactics are relying rather heavily on getting a successful psychic test off via the choir; while this is probable, it's hardly a given.

It's an interesting "core," though. While Hydras aren't optimal in a "take all comers" setup, they aren't so bad/expensive as to seriously handicap the rest of the list; ditto the DH Inquisitor (although sprining for the Inquisitor Lord boosts the costs significantly).

Good point about the Eldar bikes; I'd forgotten that they upgrade the armor save to a 3+. Hydras are still the best long range weapon that Guard have for killing AV12 skimmers that utilize SMF, however.

And yes, one psychic choir has a good chance of passing its test but it's not given. However, I think most people will take 2 or more.

Are there any other benefits to having a psychic choir besides hampering the other player's reserves? I haven't read up on them. I might go up to my GW store later this afternoon and read, but I'd like some of your guys' analyses.

Actually, it's the Officer of the Fleet that gives opponents -1 on their reserves rolls. The psychic choir has two powers - one called Soulstorm that is a shooting attack that is 36", S=# of psykers in the squad, AP D6, Assault 1, Large Blast. The other power is called Weaken Resolve - you choose a unit within 36" and LOS. On a successful psychic test, that unit's leadership is reduced by the number of psykers using the power.

Actually personally I'm not sure if I would want two officers of the fleet. Yes it will keep the opponent off the table longer, but that could really start to hamper you in an objectives mission. I don't know how many draws I've ended up with because something didn't come in until turn #5 and we rolled a one and the game ended. I think it's better to force the enemy to come in a little more piecemeal but not let them keep everything off the table.

In objective missions, there is a downside to running two of them, but frankly, it gives you more time to table what your opponent plays in the first couple turns.

and some armies don't even use reserves.. like me. I should prolly start, since y'know, it takes me like 5-10 minutes to properly deploy my 1500pt list of guard. I need to make wood-base holders for each squad.. that would make things so much easier(off topic, sorry)

but ya, if your opponent knows you have OotF, couldn't they just as easily deploy their would-be reserved units in their deployment turn? I dunno.. I'm just thinking in text here.

Mellon wrote:Sourclams, you are an evil bastard. I appreciate it. A very solid seeming list.

He's not evil.

He's a different kind of evil.

I know. I've played against him. He likes to publicly humiliate me.

Someone in our store got an 'advanced copy'. He has been crunching numbers in multiple spreadsheets like a madman.

ifyouseekamy wrote:but ya, if your opponent knows you have OotF, couldn't they just as easily deploy their would-be reserved units in their deployment turn? I dunno.. I'm just thinking in text here.

Your opponent could certainly deploy their would-be reserved units in their deployment turn....or at least what they can. I mean, look at Drop Pods. They have no choice but to come in from reserves. And for the most part, if your opponent is deploying something they would rather keep in reserve that's more turns for you to shoot at them rather than them assaulting you or hitting you from close range with meltas.

I've come up with a core list that is somewhere around 1395 points of heavy vehicles: 3x LRMBTs 2xDemolisher, 1x Medusa 2xBassies.

Yes, this seems a high point of just core units, but vets are nice and cheap along with HQs.

It seems to me that now that Guard can take an ungodly amount of tanks, it seems logical to exploit this. LRMBTs: Long range support tanks, Demolishers run in there to the opponents 2+ save guys and make them cry, Bassies with Medusa keep the crowd controlled. Bring in the cheapest Troops you can (Veterens in chims) with 2 master of the ordnances, it seems really obvious that this many pie plates being thrown around, someone is going to get hit, and very very hard.

I haven't tried using the Psychic choir because I've never had any psyker models and I hate proxying. Though, they seem an obvious Elites choice against almost any army, the problem I see with them is that they have little effect on fearless armies (Marneus, Daemons, orcs, etc.). I'll have to actually see them played to make a real firm decision, but in theory they seem good.

Someone please bring some good reasoning against why one should not mass tanks in the most cheapest way possible. Thinking about taking Sentinel Squads with Lascannons for 55 each if i recall right.

Personally, I favor AC HWS over Hyrdas.

1. They're scoring
2. They don't take up a Heavy slot, I want Griffions (perhaps w/ colossus), and 3 or 4 LRBT (variants) in 2 squads.
3. They put just as many hits on a target, more if they pass an order
4. They don't have to be grouped up.
5. They can't all be taken out by one melee charge or good round of shooting.

They only real advantage imo is that Hydras are good against Skimmers, but then again, so are normal AC.

To that core list, you could even add conscript squads and congo line them in front of everything to eat assaults. Take the special character (Chenkov, I believe) that allows you to "Send in the next wave!" Give the conscripts fearless, and pull them off the table when they get assaulted opening up whatever unit to a round of shooting.

Nenya97 wrote:I've come up with a core list that is somewhere around 1395 points of heavy vehicles: 3x LRMBTs 2xDemolisher, 1x Medusa 2xBassies.

Yes, this seems a high point of just core units, but vets are nice and cheap along with HQs.

What you've posted is a solid infantry horde deathmurderspam list. What do you intend to do against fast skimmers? You'll have a total of 6 guns, all of which suffer from scatter and no AP1. This means that by necessity you need to fill the rest of your slots with a lot of anti tank that will be equally effective against AV14 and fast AV12. At that point, you've just posted a single list. It's not a terrible list, but mine is more synergistic and easier to customize.

Remember: my purpose in this was to create a template. It's a foundation list that can easily be built off of that will fit into any optimized list.

It seems to me that now that Guard can take an ungodly amount of tanks, it seems logical to exploit this.

I agree.

LRMBTs: Long range support tanks, Demolishers run in there to the opponents 2+ save guys and make them cry, Bassies with Medusa keep the crowd controlled. Bring in the cheapest Troops you can (Veterens in chims) with 2 master of the ordnances, it seems really obvious that this many pie plates being thrown around, someone is going to get hit, and very very hard.

Your assumption is that you're fighting footsloggers. Against land raiders or even basic transports, you suddenly have a lot of problems. 900 points can be customized. 1500 points much less so.

Someone please bring some good reasoning against why one should not mass tanks in the most cheapest way possible. Thinking about taking Sentinel Squads with Lascannons for 55 each if i recall right.

Massed tanks, yes. Massed specialist tanks that can synergize; i.e. some that kill guys, some that kill mech, some that can do both. Having massed guy-killing tanks makes you good at killing... guys.

Likewise, 3 Sentinels with las cost more than 150 points. 1 Vendetta is cheaper, and has TL las and higher armor.

Im sure there are some, this is just a curious query; What rules allow you to take the Demon hunter allied dude & co.

Ooohh.. your command sqaud & DH guys go into the vendettas? That makes more sense.. otherwise thier toast from the first turn.

An eldar seer council with a fortune + warding (the good kind of stones?) farseer.. on a jetbike with lotsa chums - while they wont get a 3+ rerollable, they will get a 4+ rerollable and I wouldnt say you have enough firepower to even cause the two wounds required to force a morale check (which with your primus squad) that will probably fail. But then it might not fail as your psykers may fail thier psychic roll, whens stones are included.

And then either your hydra/russ/vendetta squadren gets charged & you start loosing alot of tanks very quickly. Squadren rules + WS5 SS + rear armor = :(

Ohh ohh now theres a use for swooping hawks! Ooh myy god!! (Anti-vendetta types..methinks? Especially in squadrens.)

I would say it could be a good core aside from the fact that it has no synergy with your troops, as it stands. Having your company command squad in a non-command-vehicle vendetta automatically penalizes your troops.

As I have said many times, it's a template, you could feel free to put your CCS into a chimera instead.

Swooping Hawks will get squashed by Inquisitorial mystics taken via By The Authority of the Immortal Emperor of Mankind rule.

But yes, I agree that Eldar bikes are one of the nastiest lists that exist, and that any IG army is going to have a tough time against them. Inq. Lord and a psychic hood go a long way towards neutralizing them, tho.

Razerous wrote:An eldar seer council with a fortune + warding (the good kind of stones?) farseer.. on a jetbike with lotsa chums - while they wont get a 3+ rerollable, they will get a 4+ rerollable and I wouldnt say you have enough firepower to even cause the two wounds required to force a morale check (which with your primus squad) that will probably fail. But then it might not fail as your psykers may fail thier psychic roll, whens stones are included.

Actually, the bike seer council will get 3+ saves against the hydra's as their bikes give them 3+ armor, as centurion pointed out. The psychic hood on the DH Inq Lord is there to hamper the Eldar's Fortune, which makes the unit alot less tough. Not a guarantee, but the only defense you have really. Also, getting the psychic choir off will be alot harder with the eldar runes of warding.

Basically, if you want to turn this template into a true take all comers, you need to spend the a few more points towards putting down bike seer councils. If I start seeing alot of Hydras in my area, you can bet that my Serpent Mounted council are trading in for bikes!

Razerous wrote:Im sure there are some, this is just a curious query; What rules allow you to take the Demon hunter allied dude & co.

Umm.. Yeah. It seems like a good part of this meta-core-game is based on allied rules providing the backbone. Where are the rules (I didnt notice them when I peeked at the new IG codex) to allow these allied peeps.

If the command squad is in a chimera, thats better but also risky as the sqauds a fair few points. Id maybe suggest camo-netting for such a transport.