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Or just put melta guns in there. Same principle.

sourclams wrote:

dietrich wrote:IG is not a hugely popular tourney army, not like MEQs.

I would really question this, once IG are assimilated more into the 'Net deck of effective lists. Orks weren't really a tournament army through 4th ed until 5th ed made them really effective. Now, according to the griping on this forum, most top tourney tables seem to spam various varieties of Ork lists.

You can't look at just the top tables of a tourney to see what is popular though. MEQs will likely continue to dominate tournies. With a new codex, once the 'netdecks start coming out, I think they'll see an upswing. But, I don't think IG will be 50% of a tourney field (which a few years ago, 2/3 of GT armies were MEQs - all the loyalist marines, CSM, GKs, and I'd include Necrons and SoB with that). Which, I think is a good thing. The more variety in armies at a tourney, the harder it is to metagame. Right now though, it seems like the metagame favors mech forces - prevents Lash, prevents Weaken Resolve, and vehicles are more durable.

Just wanna check... there are 5 firepoints in a chimera.

A squad of 10 battle-psykers can use thier psychic shooting attacks at full strength as (due to the psychic choir rule) only one model is used to draw LOS & range from.

Right?

Correct Razerous. One guy uses Weaken Resolve at -(x number of psykers in squad) and 4 guys can shoot their laspistols....or something.

Lukus83 wrote:Or just put melta guns in there. Same principle.

Yes, but it's more expensive and precludes another special weapon, and against wave serpents it doesn't get the extra D6, so you go from:

4+ to hit
4+ to glance

to

6+ to hit (at worst, I don't have my book on me and don't remember the tank shock rules)
~96% chance to penetrate

It's a bit worse, but it doesn't take a special weapon slot, and I think an all-infantry army probably has points to spare to make every front line squad a tank threat.

I want to say that you hit automatically with tank-shocking, but that might be my brain digging up the rules from older rules sets. If that's is the case, meltabombs on sergeants really just shut down tank shocking Wave Serpents. They also give you a chance in hell against walkers in close combat as a bonus feature.

Biophysic wrote:

I want to say that you hit automatically with tank-shocking, but that might be my brain digging up the rules from older rules sets. If that's is the case, meltabombs on sergeants really just shut down tank shocking Wave Serpents. They also give you a chance in hell against walkers in close combat as a bonus feature.

Yep, you auto hit during a Death or Glory attack. so a sergeant getting tank shocked would have a good chance of at least glancing the wave serpent with melta bombs (more than likely would pen), then you just have to stun, imobilize, or destroy the tank. Even if you don't its just a sergeant, i'm sure there's more where he came from. but do it a couple of times and your opponent will think twice about tank shocking your guard.

airmang wrote:

Biophysic wrote:

I want to say that you hit automatically with tank-shocking, but that might be my brain digging up the rules from older rules sets. If that's is the case, meltabombs on sergeants really just shut down tank shocking Wave Serpents. They also give you a chance in hell against walkers in close combat as a bonus feature.

Yep, you auto hit during a Death or Glory attack. so a sergeant getting tank shocked would have a good chance of at least glancing the wave serpent with melta bombs (more than likely would pen), then you just have to stun, imobilize, or destroy the tank. Even if you don't its just a sergeant, i'm sure there's more where he came from. but do it a couple of times and your opponent will think twice about tank shocking your guard.

The 5th edition rules also state that a DoG attack can only be made by models that are in the path of the vehicle, so you can tank shock the edge of a squad (away from a model that can damage you) and ignore a pesky sarge.

A meltagun is much better against tank shock since the bomb has no AP.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:A meltagun is much better against tank shock since the bomb has no AP.

G

Not at all, Meltabombs go against rear armor, so your chances of penetration are higher against a lot of tanks. Also against wave serpents, meltaguns don't get the extra die of damage, so half the time they do nothing. As I previously mentioned, meltaguns also take up your special weapon slot, which may not matter, but it might. Against non-wave serpents and AV 14 stuff, it probably is better, but still suffers from the aforementioned drawbacks.

The real problem is the one mentioned by whitedragon, in that your opponents can pick and choose where they tank shock. I think you can get around this by deploying your squads in wedges, with the sarge at the point, so it is difficult to get at the squad without going through him. I don't think this would work very well, however, because you would basically have to arrange the squad the turn before tank shocking, and it would only work against one tank. I guess the best stationary formation one could do would be to have multiple squads (3-4) near each other, clustered in the middle, with sergeants arrayed on the outside, 2" away from their squad, so to get to any squad, you'd have to go through some squad's sergeant.

All DoG attacks are against front armour... Meltagun is better as the field only works against shooting attacks (which DoG isn't) and the melta has ap1 (as GBF stated). Not getting run over is of course an issue.

Biophysic wrote:If you went the guyspam route (btw, I love this term, haven't heard it before this week), considering the cost of the guard, you could easily invest 50 points into giving 10 squad sergeants meltabombs. This way tank shocking goes from an easy way to knock Guard around to a pretty bad idea. Honestly, though, I can't remember if there are any differences between 4th & 5th ed tank shocking rules that might prevent this. Going against back armor, I'm pretty sure the meltabomb negates any toughness advantages of the Wave Serpent, and you're not really risking anything.

Death or Glory always resolves against front armor, even with melee attacks. It isn't the same thing as assaulting a vehicle. You would still ignore the energy field because of how energy fields work. Death or Glory with a melta bomb against a Wave Serpent would have a 21/36 chance of succeeding and a 15/36 chance of turning a passed leadership test into a failed one plus a splattered sergeant.

Raxmei wrote:

Biophysic wrote:If you went the guyspam route (btw, I love this term, haven't heard it before this week), considering the cost of the guard, you could easily invest 50 points into giving 10 squad sergeants meltabombs. This way tank shocking goes from an easy way to knock Guard around to a pretty bad idea. Honestly, though, I can't remember if there are any differences between 4th & 5th ed tank shocking rules that might prevent this. Going against back armor, I'm pretty sure the meltabomb negates any toughness advantages of the Wave Serpent, and you're not really risking anything.

Death or Glory always resolves against front armor, even with melee attacks. It isn't the same thing as assaulting a vehicle. You would still ignore the energy field because of how energy fields work. Death or Glory with a melta bomb against a Wave Serpent would have a 21/36 chance of succeeding and a 15/36 chance of turning a passed leadership test into a failed one plus a splattered sergeant.

My mistake, but I think the bombs are still a bit better in this case because they ignore the energy field, although meltabombs and guns are closer in end result than I initially made out. The rules say that you can make a close combat or a shooting attack against the tank shocking vehicle, so I think OddJob is mistaken, but if there is a known clarification, I'll happily be corrected.

Raxmei, I'm not sure what you mean when you say a DoG attack could turn a passed test into a failed one. If the DoG fails, the only thing that happens is that the sergeant or gunner dies.

Assuming successful leadership test, with meltabombs, vs. armor 12:
3/36 times, fail to glance or penetrate
3/36 times, glances, 1/3 of glances stop the tank
30/36 times, penetrates, 2/3 of penetrations stop the tank
As Raxmei previously said, 21/36 times (58%), you stop the tank.

Meltagun:
3/6 times, fail to glance or penetrate
1/6 times, glances, 3/6 of glances stop the tank
2/6 times, penetrate, 5/6 of penetrations stop the tank
So, 13/36 times (36%), you stop the tank


Honestly, I'd take either of these bets against a Wave Serpent, so which you use just depends on what fits in your army, I think.

I would go with the bomb, simply because I refuse to give meltaguns to bs 3 models. I NEVER hit with them.

DoG is the exception of course as its an auto hit, but id rather give them flamers or gls, and equip the sarge with the meltabomb so they have a desent special and still have a defense against tank shock which is by far the greatest weakness of guyspam.

sourclams
What do you end up filling the rest of your list at 1750 to 1850 with?

It seems odd that a core does not include any scoring units. 2/3's of the missions are objective based and require troops to score to win and your core has no troops.

It also seems that some number of Leman Russ should be taken as well but which ones in what configurations?

Might it be better for Vendettas to be separate fast attack choices so they can carry scoring troops to different locations?

You seem to have forgotten horde orks as a major player. Your core seems to do pretty poorly against horde orks.

Hydras don't seem like they should be a core part of any Guard list. They are great against skimmers but seem vulnerable and not all that effective against MEQ.

I chose the meltagun for the +1 on the AP table. The armies I play most units I will field have access to the meltagun and I believe it is the more well rounded choice and as such can be utilized better for other situations beside DoG. I think the inclusion of a meltagun is much more visible than a meltabomb and the sight of it alone will make many players think twice before running their tank into said unit.

G

Avariel wrote:sourclams
What do you end up filling the rest of your list at 1750 to 1850 with?

I personally intend for 3x melta vets, 1xGriffon1xColossus combo and Plasma Executioner/Demolisher with Plasma sponsons and a naked LR sidekick, depending on how well vets do at killing vehicles and living through it to score afterwards. Russes aren't necessary from an offensive standpoint with all the new shiny Guard artillery, but I do feel they're necessary for creating an AV14 wall between your more fragile AV12 tanks and either eating shots or granting cover to the light artillery chassis.

The Banewolf and Medusas with Bunker Busters are options I'm kicking around pretty hard. Killing AV14 from across the table is amazing, and the Banewolf is wicked good antiassault.

It seems odd that a core does not include any scoring units. 2/3's of the missions are objective based and require troops to score to win and your core has no troops.

Again, it's intended as a template. You can fill with either elite troops or massed troops, to flavor.

It also seems that some number of Leman Russ should be taken as well but which ones in what configurations?

Plasma Executioner with plasma sponsons in a squadron with a naked LRBT/LRExterminator. The naked Russ can pop smoke when needed and you allocate hits onto the smoked Russ for AV14 with 4+ cover. I'm currently favoring the LR Exterminator because the massed S7 is useful for popping light transports at long range.

Might it be better for Vendettas to be separate fast attack choices so they can carry scoring troops to different locations?

On the fence about this. Yes, separate choices are more effective for shooting at multiple targets, however I don't really see much negative to having them massed, either. Likewise the squadron of 3 is much more effective against Nob Bikers due to wound saturation. I'm going to have to play a few games out before I make a final conclusion, but right now I'm leaning towards 3 in 1.

You seem to have forgotten horde orks as a major player. Your core seems to do pretty poorly against horde orks.

As soon as you add in the artillery and tanks, Horde Orks die horribly. Likewise, the Hydras and artillery tanks all get free hull mounted heavy flamers. Orks that live through the blasting and the weaken resolve nonsense have to contend with a final charge from 6-9 tank shocking heavy flamers. Those are not odds that horde Orks will stay alive against.

You hit automatically when making a death or Glory Attack, that's why I prefer a Melta Gun.

Sourclams
You full list looks good.

You are getting Chimeras for the 3 melta veteran squads right?

Collosus seems really hindered by the 24 minimum range. Has that been a problem for you?

Shep also has been saying that the Plasma executioner is good. Is it better than the Demolisher though? Demolisher has Strength 10 for insta killing Nob bikers, characters and the ability to shoot at Land Raiders or high AV vehicles with Str 10 plus rolling 2 d6 and taking the highest seems better and its cheaper.

Banewolf sounds fun if you can get in range to use the chemical cannon. If you are in range to use the chemical cannon you are also in melta range. Are these worth it since they compete with Valkyries for fast attack slots and they have a high cost as opposed to an Immolator which is not as effective but can carry troops and is much cheaper?

Seperate fast attack choices for Valkyries/Vendettas seems to be the way to go so you can use them to move your scoring veterans to different objectives more so then the ability to split fire. I been running 3 as seperate choices. Being massed as one choice is a disadvantage if you are facing things like Exorcists or Hydra Squadrons. The squadron is better against like NOb bikers though.

I will have to try the Hydras myself. The math looks decent for Hydras especially shooting Rhinos and Marines in cover. Did some comparison of hydra to valkyrie vendetta. Neither is all that good against Nob bikers unless you run a squadron of Vendettas since the wounds just go on the warboss.

Nob Bikers
Hydra versus Nob Biker 3/4 hit * 5/6 wound * 1/2 fail smoke trail cover * 4 shots = 1.25 wounds
Vendetta versus Nob Biker = 3/4 hit * 5/6 wound * 3 shots * 1/2 fail smoke trail cover = 0.9375 wounds on warboss

Dreadnaught/Chimera front
Hydra versus dreadnaught 3/4 hit * 1/6 penetrate * 1/3 destroy or explode * 4 shots = 0.1667 chance to kill dread * 2 hydras = 0.3333 chance to kill dread
Vendetta versus dreadnaught 3/4 hit * 1/2 penetrate * 1/3 destroy or explode * 3 shots = 0.375 chance of kill dread

Rhino/Razorback
Hydra versus Rhino/Razorback 3/4 hit * 1/3 penatrate * 1/3 destroy or explode * 4 shots = 0.333 * 2 hydras = 0.666 chance to kill dread
Vendetta versus Rhino/Razorback 3/4 hit * 2/3 penatrate * 1/3 destroy or explode * 3 shots = 0.49 to kill

Marines
Hydra versus Marine 3/4 hit * 5/6 wound * 1/3 fail save * 4 shots = 0.8333 bikes killed per hydra * 2 = 1.6667 Marines killed
Vendetta versus Marine 3/4 hit * 5/6 wound * 3 shots = 1.875 Marines killed

Marine in Cover
Hydra versus Marine 3/4 hit * 5/6 wound * 1/3 fail save * 4 shots = 0.8333 bikes killed per hydra * 2 = 1.6667 Marines killed
Vendetta versus Marine = 3/4 hit * 5/6 wound * 3 shots * 1/2 fail cover = 0.9375 Marines killed

Real quick reply because I'm headed out the door:

Right now I like the Executioner versus the Demolisher. Three plasma shots isn't optimal versus Nob Bikers, but it's not bad, either. My list can saturate Nob Bikers with wounds to the point that allocation won't matter; 2x Banewolves with heavy flamer and chemical cannon saturate the squadron. From there other guns can pick them off and psykers make one run away with ease.

Some Vets in Chims, some vets in Vendettas. Thus far I've been running Vendis in a squadron and it's working fine. I'd like to split them up, but Nob Bikers, etc. If I know I'm not facing Nob Bikers, one squadron of 1 and 1 of 2.

Vets in Chimeras actually work great for "holding the line" so to speak because Land Raiders are afraid to get close.

Colossus is there to nuke enemy objective holders. Cheap combo, and either they get off the objectives (win for me) or they stand there and die (win for me). So all good.

Your math on the Marines in Cover vs. Hydra isn't correct. You're taking a 4+ cover save when they should have a 3+ armor. Not a huge deal, but Hydras do a little worse than what you've got. I still think the Hydra is a steal, though.

bigtmac68 wrote:I would go with the bomb, simply because I refuse to give meltaguns to bs 3 models. I NEVER hit with them.

But half the time, I hit ALL the time!

Recklessfable wrote:
But half the time, I hit ALL the time!

Was that an Anchorman reference?

I tried out the executioner and it is quite effective killing many terminators. I still like my Demolishers though.

Still haven't tried out the Colossus but against armies that rush you the 24 minimum range seems like an issue. Str6 ap 3 ignores cover seems very nice though.

Thank you for pointing that out. I fixed the math on marines in cover.

I too think the new IG will be competitive, but there are a few things I wanted to address.

The Valk/Vend are on a 6" tall flying stand with a base that has less of a footprint than a Chimera chassis. You can easily pack in tanks underneath the Valk/Vend hull.

- Sourclams

I'm fairly sure, this is not legal. You can't "hover" over the top of another unit. You can move over it, but not end your move on top of it. I could be wrong, so correct me if so.

Deamons do better piecemeal? Seriously? You do know what happens to armies that are half the points cost of the opposition for most of the game?

- OddJob


Please realise, that half the units in the army, does not equal half the points. It could very well be 3/4 of the points in the first wave of Daemons that drop. Not arguing whether you are right about the odds, but you are certainly not right about the point spread.


Thanks,


Clay

Most of the template seems quite solid for the intended role(s) and indeed leaves enough room for customization. I personally still think the INQ is a gimmick. As has been pointed out, he can only guard a limited area, and it is far from certain that he will cause any casualties to matter. If I were a Daemon player, I'd simply DS somewhere else or take my chances.

The battle psykers will come in very handy against Fateweaver - if they hit, that is. They will be a priority target, and they are squishy. I realize they're sitting in a Chimera but that is not very resilient either.

sourclams wrote:Park the Chimera sideways in front of the Hydras to completely obscure at least 1; due to allocation rules, if you conceal 100% of the facing of one vehicle, then you can claim a 3+ cover save on any one shot that hits the squadron.

I've said it in another thread but I will point it out again: The turret is part of the facing, irrespective of how it swivels and where it points at. If you obscure 100 % of your Hydra (which is impossible with a Chimera because of its lower silhouette), you completely block LOS to the tank. Obscuring 100 % of the hull does not equal obscuring 100 % of the tank, so as long as the shooter can see the turret, he will be in the right arc. Secondly, I don't think it would be too hard to get rid of a Chimera parked sideways in the first place.

Twin-linking weapons for infantry foot squads only works versus armor (or monsterous creatur/s).. Just thought i'd point that out as it reduces the effectivness of using infantry with orders. - Although conversely anti-cover-save orders will be more useful vs mid-range ap weapons on light infantry. Plasma on MEQ's will likewise benifit from orders - if only thier on foot!

Most of what I have seen here in regards to stating the new IG auto trumps daemons is based solely upon the strength a particular army list and does not take into account other factors such mission rules and terrain. I think it's safe to say the new IG is a lot stronger in general but it is my no means an auto win. Many of the reasons to support this opinion have already been presented here and elsewhere in these forums.

G

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Most of what I have seen here in regards to stating the new IG auto trumps daemons is based solely upon the strength a particular army list and does not take into account other factors such mission rules and terrain. I think it's safe to say the new IG is a lot stronger in general but it is my no means an auto win. Many of the reasons to support this opinion have already been presented here and elsewhere in these forums.

G

G

Demon players as a whole have been neglecting bolt of tzeentch. A handful of that shot can equalize a mech army PDQ. I think too many people stopped taking it because it doesn't kill land raiders. Which is not a great reason not to take it. It pops rhinos, land speeders, attack bikes, chimeras, hellhounds, wave serpents, devilfish... all the stuff that can get away from charges for a couple turns.

Demons who have been winning tourneys by just landing and running on turn one, then saying 'go' aren't going to beat mech guard. But sniper princes, railtongues, and heralds on chariots can have immediate impact of the 'you are less mobile' variety.

I've been stomping lots of people with my new IG list. But these people haven't made a single adjustment yet. I think everyone in my group is going to get one more look at my list in a game, then they are going to add in the tweaks. Then I'll come out with some new batreps. Which will likely seem less "sjy is falling" than the first wave was.

Demons need to start showing some respect to mech armies. It's silly that some haven't yet. Once they do that, they could be right back in there. Immune to weaken resolve is great, but adding shooting can also mitigate lash. And charging transports in order to 'reveal' the units inside is not sound strategy. Bunch yourself up and await template.

To summarize, less red and green, more blue

As far as daemons go, I'm just not afraid of that with a mono-tzeetnch list. It's definitely not a gimme but it will be a fair fight.

Lack of anti armor shooting is an inherent drawback of running a Daemons list. Khorne has next to none, Slaanesh has none, and Nurgle has next to none. That means the only way to get significant antitank is to run Soul Grinders with BS3, Heralds of Tzeentch, Horrors, DPs of Tzeentch (competing with SGs), and Flamers with the upgrade.

That's a maximum of:

3x Prince
4x Herald
3x Flamer
6x Horror
------------------
16 Bolts of Tz

Is it likely that someone will run a mono-Tzeentch army? I've seen 0 tournament lists that look like this.

So cut it in half, and you're down to about 2-4 BS4 Bolts and 2-3 BS3 bolts. That's not nearly enough anti tank to take on a mech list competently. First turn, you potentially kill 2 AV12 tanks, 2nd turn 1, and then all your stuff is probably dead because you can't outshoot a mech army with Daemons.

sourclams wrote:Lack of anti armor shooting is an inherent drawback of running a Daemons list. Khorne has next to none, Slaanesh has none, and Nurgle has next to none. That means the only way to get significant antitank is to run Soul Grinders with BS3, Heralds of Tzeentch, Horrors, DPs of Tzeentch (competing with SGs), and Flamers with the upgrade.

That's a maximum of:

3x Prince
4x Herald
3x Flamer
6x Horror
------------------
16 Bolts of Tz

Is it likely that someone will run a mono-Tzeentch army? I've seen 0 tournament lists that look like this.

So cut it in half, and you're down to about 2-4 BS4 Bolts and 2-3 BS3 bolts. That's not nearly enough anti tank to take on a mech list competently. First turn, you potentially kill 2 AV12 tanks, 2nd turn 1, and then all your stuff is probably dead because you can't outshoot a mech army with Daemons.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/230449.page

Then obviously you don't read through the batrep's Now you can say you've seen one! It's not quite what you listed there because I run large blocks of horrors but it's close.