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Warmaster's tzneetch list is well proven and solid as like heavy metal. I am currently working on a pure tzneetch list using old models from my defunct l&td list. I call it shake and bake.

G

Don't know why you'd say that. It can't beat nob bikers, horde/mech Orks, or Land Raider spam. It also has a lot of trouble against various assault armies.

What are you talking about ? He beat job bikers with the list. You really need to be careful what you say or you are going to develop a rep quickly as a BSer.

G

Actually, if you look at the batreps, it did in fact beat a dual Nob Biker list. Modified KP, true, but still. If that had been an objective mission it likely would have been a clearer win. Sure, it's beatable, but really most Daemon armies will struggle against the lists you mention, so meh.

What are you talking about ? He beat job bikers with the list. You really need to be careful what you say or you are going to develop a rep quickly as a BSer.

Right, because one Batrep is a good indication of total effectiveness. Sorry I base my observations on mathematical probability. Even if you totally max out on Bolt of Tzeentch you only get half your units in turn 1 and you only land 5-6 wounds before cover saves.

And then 2 squads of Nob Bikers kill half your army.

Weren't you the one advocating multi charge and the necessity of killing Bikers in turn 1? Tzeentch Daemons can't beat them in shooting and can't beat them in HtH.

Right, because there's no such thing as terrain, or sacrificial squads, or player skill, and nob bikers just auto win. Tzeentch flamers do a number on nobs, especially after blue scribes pavane them. Bolts are good, but you're right can't do everything.

Nob bikers have a good list, and are powerful against daemons. This list stands a chance if played well. Few daemon lists can say that (maaaaaybe mono-Khorne).

In any case, this is way OT at this point.

Mathematical probability is not reality. Not by a long shot.

G

You're right. Plasma pistols kill Land Raiders all the time. Just use tactics!

Right, because there's no such thing as terrain, or sacrificial squads, or player skill, and nob bikers just auto win. Tzeentch flamers do a number on nobs, especially after blue scribes pavane them. Bolts are good, but you're right can't do everything.

No believe me, I hear what you're saying, and I like seeing how I can apply "underdog" lists to beat metagame kings, but mono-tzeentch is not nearly competitive enough to be called a 'tournament list'. You've got okay shooting, okay anti-mech, and bad assault. This would be alright if you also had high survivability, but T3-T4 units with a 4++ do not have the staying power to only be 'okay' at their relativley high point cost.

I have playtested my tzneetch successfully against lash spam. I am going to try and play against new mech IG this weekend. It's funny to see you make a blanket statement about tzneetch while in this same thread you have made repeated requests to back up everything with solid facts.

G

It's funny that you base competitiveness off of not playing against competitive lists. Go try out 3 Land Raider marines, horde/mech Orks, Nob Bikers, or SAFH eldar.

Let me know how it went. No, playing against some scrub with no experience versus Daemons doesn't count.

Meta lists are just that and people like you buy into them. As far as playing scrubs goes the state of Florida has some of the top gamers in the country and I have played my share of games against them. Are you going to play at the Necro this July?

G

Not worth arguing about. I've posted back up for my comments and I like the mono-tzeentch list.

Sour clams talks a lot of junk.

G

...and I unsubscribe to the thread

Just for the record landraider spam is not a top tier list. Mega melta lists can smoke it all day long.

G

Land raider spam crushes nobz and daemons (which isn't hard) all day long, but if your assumption that any list can be beat by some other rock paper scissor list, then by definition there are no top tier lists.

You have decided to disagree with everything I say based on your own assumptions.

You accuse me of talking 'junk'.

The requests that people are PMing me for advice on their lists suggests that they do indeed want my point of view.

Accept yourviewpoints, and move on. I'm sorry I didn't want to be in your Wrecking Crew club.

Actually daemons can shred landraider spam. I've done it more than enough to say I can do it consistently. Don't go getting all emo... This is Dakka.

G

And green bow fly kills another thread.

Just for the record landraider spam is not a top tier list. Mega melta lists can smoke it all day long.

Top tier lists are top tier based on their ability to counter a large percentage of the field and secure victory consistently. The definition of a top tier list isn't one that is unbeatable but one that is really hard to beat for a majority of the competition. You can design any army to beat any other, but if doing so compromises your ability to take forces that are not your specific target then you're likely not going to impact the one you're there to beat.

Landraider spam is not top tier by any means. The best it can do is sit on objectives. Lash spam will rape it with their oblits. It is a misconception to think nob bikers can't destroy it either. That's the just the way it is and spamming this type list on a blog will not make it anymore effective.

G

But Tzeentch Daemons, now, there's a competitor!

yikes, this thread turned to a steaming pile

I forget what this thread is about.

*reads OP*

Oh yeah, building a solid core for a Guard list to expand on.

Maybe the OP needs its own thread...

The first few pages of this thread are pure gold, lets not ruin it just because someone is playing Devil's advocate. Just as a general statement I believe it is foolish to state that this list will rock the meta game or lose to a particular army as there is a whole lot of points left unspent and how they are spent will determine the armies efectiveness. Anyway.
@Soulclam I am assuming that this core was designed with 1750 pt games in mind, what units from this core would you suggest to keep or drop for a 1500 pt game ,as this is the standard limit for all comps in my area.

Wow, I think I'll unsubscribe now. This thread was immensely helpful for the first couple of pages though. Thanks for your anaylsis and insight into the new IG book sourclams!

In attempt to get this thread back on topic.



Psychic Choir. One unit minimum or two?

Personally, I think the fact that you really need them in a chimera, means that one unit is expensive enough. Two units, although still powerful, is not needed.

Yeah I think against many armies two is overkill as they can keep a large number of their squads in transports and the ones that aren't are fearless. The only problem I see with only taking one unit though is that your opponent will spend their first turn doing everything in their power to blow that unit off the board. That is not a bad thing per se, as if they're doing that they aren't going after the rest of your army but if you're playing an army that has some super unit you were relying on your choir to make run, it could be game ending to lose the choir.

Tough choice, I think it will come down to the point value of the game. Under 2k, I'm thinking one, over 2k, two is almost required IMO.

I think having them in a Chimera, hidden behind a Leman Russ or another Chimera or terrain, makes them very difficult to kill with an opening turn salvo. The fact that both their powers are assault powers gives them a lot of flexibility in deployment.

BoxANT wrote:In attempt to get this thread back on topic.



Psychic Choir. One unit minimum or two?

Personally, I think the fact that you really need them in a chimera, means that one unit is expensive enough. Two units, although still powerful, is not needed.

I'm curently playing 2 units. That will change when the meta shifts into something that is more heavily mechanized/less reliant on slogging infantry and such. The PSBs are simply fantastic against things like Nob Bikes, Eldar Bikes, horde orks, Kairos, big termie units, etc. With this in mind, while I keep seeing lots of armies with composition similar to those lists, I'll probably keep running 2. One unit may be all you need though, I've been really wishing I could free up points for another LR variant in my list and the first thing I see to drop is a PSB.

The way I see it, the PSB is a pretty deent counter to a fair amount of very strong lists right now. While those lists remain prevalent, I will be playing at least one, but most likely 2.

For an all-comers list I think one psych squad is all one should take.

First of all, eldar fubars it, mech fubars it and fearless fubars it.

Having one to deal with situational tactical issues is good enough imho.

I've found this "core list" to be incredibly helpful. Thanks for posting it sourclams!

Now I just need to figure out if buying three valkyrie kits is worth it...what alternatives are there to the awesomeness of triple-las troop fast skimmer transports that is the Vendetta? =p