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I think the BT is a very bad addition because he's got four wounds. For a similar number of points you could have fourteen wounds' worth of Bloodcrushers. Playing for Encirclement in a Fatecrusher list is hard because you have to waste so much movement positioning yourself laterally. That, and you'll have at least one Crusher unit not in Fateweaver's bubble.

Likewise Changeling would be good stuff, except the majority of a mech guard list is in vehicles and therefore Ld10. Since he has to be taken with a unit of Horrors, he's pretty easy to flatten. I've lost a lot of Changelings to torrent of fire. You need a big squad to keep this guy alive.

GMMStudios wrote:Dont forget he actually has to fail the leadership test. How many Hydras and Chimeras on average need to fire to get through that or to kill him is what matters.

He should be testing on LD2, so he'll only pass the test 1/36 of the time. I'm confident that Kairos goes bye bye with great consistancyas long as I can cast a weaken resolve.

As for going through 24 Crushers... 24 don't have to die to punch a hole. Substantial casualites on one unit (after Kairos is missing, the rest of the army should be able to kill a unit of Crushers) can open a hole t odrive through.

Bloodthirster is for land raiders, but I realize the point of this thread is not demons vs. all comers

Do we really need valks? They're huge and expensive compared to chimeras. I know you can move scoring units 24 inches and all that, but they are easy targets and have no firing points. You cannot charge out of them and grav chute insertion comes with the risk of deviation. It is pretty obvious that GW just wanted to sell feth loads of new models as they come with slapdash variants, an unbalanced points cost and lack of necessary rules, e.g. 2 inches deployment radius from 6 inches in the air. I love IG but I really do not feel like finding space to fit these models in my cases for various reasons (GW antics, cost, space, battlefield logistics, air of cheese, etc.) My scoring chimeras seem to be able to rush objective late game just fine. What do you guys think? Do you feel like earning some easy sportsmanship points or are you convinced that you cannot do nearly as well without our new toys?

I think that the Vendetta does add a lot of options to the army, but honestly I also agree that a list wihout them might be more effective in the end.

The Valk/Vendetta adds a dimension to the army that is very important in 5th edition, and to the IG army because it hasn't really had it before and otherwise is lacking it even now with the new book: mobility.

I think if for no other reason than the maneuverability and mobility of the Valk/Detta, and its ability to be a scring model with troops inside of it, it is worthwhile for IG lists to include. 24" reach to snag late objectives is great. Swinging 3 TL lascannons around to side armor of tanks is solid. Outflanking with the assistance of Astropaths is also a rather potent tool at the IG player's disposal and something he can really take advantage of with a Valk/Detta.

I like them a lot, and honestly I haven't built a list without them that I'm really happy with yet. I seem to put two of them (Vendettas) into the list one of the first things every time. They're flexible and fast, the latter of which is important to IG as it is otherwise a fairly slow moving army. It brings a whole new depth to the tactical spectrum of the army.

Local games are important for playtesting but I think results that really weigh in come from the big events. It will be very interesting to see how the new guard fares.

G

bigtmac68 wrote:I think that the Vendetta does add a lot of options to the army, but honestly I also agree that a list wihout them might be more effective in the end.

The vendetta is the single most point effective unit in the entire Guard codex for killing Monstrous Creatures and vehicles of all AV values at range. Add its ability to outflank and turbo, and I really question what you think is a more effective usage of points.

Don't just make blanket statements, back them up.

Local games are important for playtesting but I think results that really weigh in come from the big events. It will be very interesting to see how the new guard fares.

It will be interesting to see if new IG players *adapt*. There's no obvious IWIN button for this army, unlike Nob Bikers or Fatecrusher Daemons. I think this codex has the potential to beat any other list in an 'all comers' format, but if it ever does reach supremacy, I think it'll only be a couple players.

The fundamental units in an IG army still basically suck; T3, low leadership, and both the men and vehicles fail in the assault phase. It requires a higher level of technical skill to pull this army off, unlike point-and-click Ork/Nidzilla/Daemon rushes.

Expensive money-wise and harder to play means that this army won't "dominate" tournaments in the same volume that Orks currently are.

I have a question about the effects of the advisors:

What does alive mean? If the unit is off the table (ie in reserve), do I still benefit from the special abilities of the advisors (ie reserves rolls modifiers and outflank rerolls from Astropath and OotF)?

Yes, because he's not dead [yet].

Okay, seriously, the only way a model could ever be considered 'not alive' would be if he were removed from the table as a casualty. The ability works while in reserve, and you have to make some completely whacky TFG arguments to say that they're somehow not alive in reserves.

The vendetta is the single most point effective unit in the entire Guard codex for killing Monstrous Creatures and vehicles of all AV values at range. Add its ability to outflank and turbo, and I really question what you think is a more effective usage of points.

Don't just make blanket statements, back them up.

Fair Point,

Dont get me wrong Im a massive Valkyrie nut, and I agree that taken individually on a point for point basis the Valkyrie/Vendetta are both amazing. ( I personally lean more towards the 'detta but I see the benifits of both )

The only problem is that they really only work best in numbers, and that gets expensive. I see a lot of very effective lists that use a simillar core but replace the flyers with more vets, more artillery, more tanks. I think this might make them more effective overall. I also think that the Hellhound varients might be under rated on paper.

Lack of scoring units is a key weakness to most of the better valkyrie inclusive lists I have seen, and some of the non valk lists bring just as much pain, but add two or three more vet squads.

Pure Mech with chim hulls and tanks may turn out to be more effective in the end, I personally hope not. ( That would mean my pretty new valkyries and 300.00 Battlefoam Case purchased just to protect them would just be collecting dust ) I just dont want to ignore the possiblity that there might be better options from a pure battlefield effectiveness standpoint. Not point for point, but overall.

Putting it another way, which is better? 3 melta vet squads in chims and 3 vendettas, or 5 3 melta vet squads in chims and 2 plamsa vets in chims. No one would argue that the Vendettas are not better one on one than the vets, but you could argue the point that the 5 vets squads acting together may be more effective as part of the army as a whole.

Hopefully that makes more sense.

Im not at all saying that the valk/detta are bad, far from it. Only that they might not be present in what eventually shakes out to be the optimal guard builds.

First off great thread!

@ Sourclams
What can I say that my signature doesn't? Priceless!

@ Samurai
Great points. I wonder if since every squad can buy a Chim whether a bas infatry squad with JO and 4 meltas + 3 SW squads with 3 Meltas would not be more effective than their cost in Vend/Valk. (If it is a 0-2 limit a SW squads in the basic platoon please excuse me I am at work and havent memorized the codex)

Secondly how does everyone here hold their Inquisitor and Mystics. Correct me if I am wrong but to buy a DH rhino costs the same as 3 marines +5 points correct? And the olf chimera price is still to high. There fore wouldn't it make more since to buy a Chim, or as suggested earlier place them in a Vend/Valk (seriously who doesnt want at least one??)

I would not buy a ValkDetta just for the Inquisitor, but if you have one, then it just makes sense for him to ride in it and take advantage of the enourmous footprint.

As far as having your basic inf platoon ride in Chims it is good but every time I try to crunch the numbers is allways works out to Vets Being a better deal since you need to purchase the PCS and two naked squads just to get that SWS and even then it is just 10 points cheaper than a vet squad with lower ballistic skill and 4 fewer wounds.

Vets all the way for chim riders, they just give you so much more bang for the buck

sourclams wrote:Yes, because he's not dead [yet].

Okay, seriously, the only way a model could ever be considered 'not alive' would be if he were removed from the table as a casualty. The ability works while in reserve, and you have to make some completely whacky TFG arguments to say that they're somehow not alive in reserves.

haha I was 99.9% sure that the abilities work while he's off the table, I just wanted to clarify since Iwas working on a list with 2 CCS in it and one of them would tend to start in a Valkyrie in reserves. Thanks!