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Just a couple thoughts. As daemons are a treat that we solving for on this thread. You should consider hvy sentinels. They have AV 12 on the front which mean that a large majority of the daemon list (including the likes of blood crushers, can do absolutely nothing against you in hth).

They are also good for doing things like tar pitting plague marines. 1 powerfist will take a long time to get through 3 hvy sentinels.

The other thought is that sisters of battle bring guard to a whole new level... The book of st lucius and conscripts or combined infantry squads will be mean.

Tanks can shoot right over infantry. So you tarpit infantry to protect you LRs. HTH is the death of IG tanks.

Finally consider the madness of dominions in vandettas...

So nasty.

Here is a quick Tzneetch list I threw together I think would give IG fits plus could contend with other armies:

1807 points

HQ:
Fateweaver (333 Pts)
The Blue Scribes (130 Pts)

Troops:
8x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (168 Pts)
Bolt of Tzeentch (x1)
The Changeling

9x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (163 Pts)
Bolt of Tzeentch (x1)

9x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (163 Pts)
Bolt of Tzeentch (x1)

Elite:
3x Flamers of Tzeentch (135 Pts)
Bolt of Tzeentch (x1)

3x Flamers of Tzeentch (135 Pts)
Bolt of Tzeentch (x1)

Heavy Support:
Daemon Prince of Chaos (290 Pts)
Daemonic Flight; Iron Hide; Mark of Tzeentch; Master of Sorcery; Bolt of Tzeentch; Breath of Chaos; Daemonic Gaze

Daemon Prince of Chaos (290 Pts)
Daemonic Flight; Iron Hide; Mark of Tzeentch; Master of Sorcery; Bolt of Tzeentch; Breath of Chaos; Daemonic Gaze


I played nob bikers at Adepticon this year in the team tourney and my first thought was that only one biker unit is necessary. If they are still considered nob bikers I will leave that up to others to decide.

G

On trick you can do with your DH ally to save a few points (if I recall) is taking an Elite Inq with hood with 2 Hierophants in his retinue for the +2 Ld, instead of the HQ inq. It shaves 5 points or so, but also leaves you an open HQ slot of for other fun things.

Great analysis though 'Clams. I appreciate you taking the time.

Green Blow Fly wrote: I think Tzneetch lists in general are going to be nasty for IG to counter. Nob bikers only need to drop one biker squad to take other units needed to deal with IG such as Lootas.

A single 165pt choir unit it the IG army (assuming full psychers and a chimera) gives the army a reliable counter to the nob bikers. Even if you are only taking one 700pt uber unit, that is still a net gain for the IG. If you could all but guarantee a 700pt return from every shooting phase you would never lose. Yes, the orcs can change their army list (snikrot/deffcoptas are looking good vs IG), but the IG will still have the advantage of neutering your main threat almost straight away, with units that are useful in an allcomers environment.

I have little experience of tzeentchian lists, but I assume they include fateweaver. Another lynchpin unit that the choir is spectacularly well suited to killing off. -edit: 290pt deamon princes? Wow-

Dettas and massed autocannons also top trump lash prince oblit spam armies nicely.

Of all of the big boy lists the one that the guard have no obvious answer for (not necessarily top trump-just answer) is the bike seer council. Multiple choirs and hope to get one weaken resolve off?

I personally like one Nob biker squad and one squad of Nobs in a battlewagon.

For one, you are in a vehicle so you ignore the lash until you're smushing the lash into the ground.

Second, deff rollers are great for smashing tanks that having the nobs assault the dudes from inside the vehicle.

One thing I want to get in the open is that the master of the fleet is not worth it.

The -1 to your opponents reserves is a must not a may. And this will see many Guard players lose. A smart general will set up his entire army in reserve against a shooting opponent if he is to go second. The fewer turns the guard player has to shoot, the more likely he is to lose, especially in an objectives mission. Against demons the same is true. Demons do better piecemeal.

This is a very good point. Too bad many guard players will have to lose several games to realize this. Too many people focus on X kills X when there is so much more than that.

I realize that nothing I say will penetrate the wall of "tactical understanding" that some individuals have built around themselves. However, there are other people who have assumptions about units in the new IG 'dex and how they'll synergize who may read this thread and find it useful and it's for them that I intend this post.

On the Master of the Fleet:

If you had an ability that reduced how many points your opponents had available in your list, wouldn't that be stupidly broken? That's what the Master of the Fleet does. Vulnerable armies can include anyone that relies heavily on good reserve rolls, like Khan Outflank marines and Drop Podders, but any army that can choose reserves as a reasonable option (combi-melta Chaos Termicide squads, Crisis Tau, Scuttling 'Stealers) is hit pretty hard. This is because either they ignore those options, in which case they're wrong-footed from the beginning, or they take the gamble on coming in piecemeal.

I don't know where this myth began about the Officer of the Fleet causing reserves to all show up on turn 5, or the other myth that piecemeal reserves are somehow good tactics, but there is absolutely no merit to either point of view. As the most obvious example, let's take Daemons, an army almost 100% dependent upon its reserve rolls:

T1: 50% of army on board
T2: 75% of army on board (excluding casualties)
T3: 91.7%
T4: 98.6%

Turn 2 is obviously the scary monster; 75% of his army is on the board, probably within 7-14" of yours (unless you have mystics ).

Now let's add the Officer of the Fleet

T1: 50% of army on board
T2: 66% of army on board (excluding casualties)
T3: 83%
T4: 97%

Turn 1 is identical, turn 4 is nearly identical, but turns 2 and 3 suddenly look a lot more manageable. What the OotF does is reduce the Daemon army by 90 points on Turn 2, and 87 points on Turn2. Basically, 30 points are "killing" 90 points on those two turns. This effect is magnified when the number of reserves is very small; 1 giant outflanking Kor'sorro Khan bike death squad wouldn't reliably show up until turn 3-4, rather than 2-3, especially coupled with the reroll of table edge; 55% of the time your opponent shows up on the wrong edge.

So the enemy still appears by turn 4 giving you at least one turn of shooting to deal with them, turns 2-3 are more "safe", and 55% of the time outflankers appear on the wrong table edge.

Here's where this list fails:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Here is a quick Tzneetch list I threw together I think would give IG fits plus could contend with other armies:

1807 points
...
HQ:
Fateweaver (333 Pts)
...

Fateweaver shows up. Psychic Choir reduces his leadership to 2-3. Vendettas and, if necessary Hydras, shoot Fateweaver. Statistically, you need 9 wounds to put one unsaved wound onto a rerollable 3++. Odds are good the Vendettas do it by themselves, but almost certain that the Hydras will if the Vendettas don't.

Fateweaver fails a 2+ Ld test and flies back into the warp.

Likewise, the rest of the list is complete fail versus mech IG and partial fail versus Guyspam IG. You've got 3-4 S8 shots per turn to take down all my armor and you can't rely on Fateweaver giving your Horrors extra survivability. After cover saves and failing to pen/glance, you're not killing nearly enough armor to make up for all the death that's being plopped onto your lines.

OddJob. wrote:
Of all of the big boy lists the one that the guard have no obvious answer for (not necessarily top trump-just answer) is the bike seer council. Multiple choirs and hope to get one weaken resolve off?

Unfortunately, that's about as good as I can come up with too. I think that currently, 100% GUYSPAM is actually stronger against "pure" seer bike council. The problem then of course is that against mech lists, you get tank shocked right off the table...

But hey, 3/4 lists beat based on simple fundamentals is better than most codices can claim.

yakface wrote:
But again, great thread sourclams. I appreciate the time and effort you put into it!

Thanks.

sourclams wrote:Unfortunately, that's about as good as I can come up with too. I think that currently, 100% GUYSPAM is actually stronger against "pure" seer bike council.

100% GUYSPAM? Where is malfred! That's a party I know he'd be into!

sourclams you are always assuming that your psychic choir will be in effective range. I have pointed this out to you more than once. It seems you believe that everyone is going to let you play to your strengths which is not always the case by any means.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:sourclams you are always assuming that your psychic choir will be in effective range. I have pointed this out to you more than once. It seems you believe that everyone is going to let you play to your strengths which is not always the case by any means.

G

Isn't the range of Weaken Resolve 36"? Isn't the effective range of Nob bikers 18"? If i'm missing something, let me know, but it seems to me that there is no way to properly use nob bikers and not get within range.

Playing Devil's Advocate.

If the Choir is such a threat, then the way to do it is kill the choir. If it's hiding in a vehicle, shoot the vehicle. Most good 40k lists worth their salt should find a way to get to the enemy they need to get to either through shooting them or assaulting them.

I'm not convinced Vendetta's can be the all encompassing threat they seem to be on paper. They need to come on in reserve, or start on the table and get shot. When they do come on don't they only move 6" to fire all three lascannons? That's not so fast. Any faster and it's only one lascannon firing or do they have a special rule I don't know about.

I suppose Fateweaver can come down turn 1. If no Vendetta's, then they come out on turn 2 with a 3+ right? That's not a sure thing. I'm sure the Bolt's of change and Soul Grinder mouth weapons, and flamers of Tzeentch will have nothing better to do then target the biggect threat to Fateweaver.

Likewise a more balanced Ork force with 1 Nob Biker unit wold devote some Loota fire or even boom gun fire into the threats for the Bikers if available.

Weaken resolve is nice, but it's not going to work against a bunch of fearless stuff (most chaos stuff or any Daemon list with no Fateweaver). Is there a better way to deal with Chaos Lash? Maybe all mech, which will always work against everyone while the Choir works great against a few things.

I really like the idea of the Choir used in conjuncture with assassins. The Culuxus and the Callidus both have great shooting attacks that are enhanced with a choir nearby.

Green Blow Fly wrote:sourclams you are always assuming that your psychic choir will be in effective range. I have pointed this out to you more than once. It seems you believe that everyone is going to let you play to your strengths which is not always the case by any means.

G

If he moves the squad's chimera to the center of the board then every square inch (except the very corners) is already within its effective range on a typical 6'x4' board.

Would a calidus assassin's neural shredder cause instant death against Bike Nobs?

EDIT:

And DDiggler, I believe that Valks are flyers, not skimmers and therefore can fire all their weapons as they move across the table.

DarthDiggler wrote:If the Choir is such a threat, then the way to do it is kill the choir. If it's hiding in a vehicle, shoot the vehicle. Most good 40k lists worth their salt should find a way to get to the enemy they need to get to either through shooting them or assaulting them.

Fortunately for guard, weaken resolve is an assault 1 shot. The chimera can be behind a leman russ. It is possible to 'kill' the choir, but IG players won't make it easy for you, and they have great tools for making it hard. Multiple vehicle spam, screened vehicles, camo netting, etc.

DarthDiggler wrote:I'm not convinced Vendetta's can be the all encompassing threat they seem to be on paper. They need to come on in reserve, or start on the table and get shot. When they do come on don't they only move 6" to fire all three lascannons? That's not so fast. Any faster and it's only one lascannon firing or do they have a special rule I don't know about.

I'm with you. In all of my games so far, the valkyrie with missile pods has FLOORED me. lascannons are cool, but moving on the table 12" and dropping 2 large blasts and a multi-laser salvo, then doing it again, after moving another 12". Or being able to deep strike and fire ALL of those weapons is just amazing. I'll probably keep a ratio of one vendetta to two valks.

DarthDiggler wrote:Likewise a more balanced Ork force with 1 Nob Biker unit wold devote some Loota fire or even boom gun fire into the threats for the Bikers if available.

I think the entire 40k community will personally thank Robin Cruddance for making the 2 nob biker army a 1 nob biker army. In every post I've ever read about nob bikers, someone inevitably says. "I can handle one nob biker unit, but two is where the list becomes broken".

DarthDiggler wrote: Weaken resolve is nice, but it's not going to work against a bunch of fearless stuff (most chaos stuff or any Daemon list with no Fateweaver). Is there a better way to deal with Chaos Lash? Maybe all mech, which will always work against everyone while the Choir works great against a few things.

Sure weaken resolve works against fearless armies. It is just called soulstorm at that point. Half of your shots are going to be ap3 or better, you'll be high strength, and you can fire it out of a moving chimera.

Lash is in trouble against IG. Physically screened executioners/demolishers hard-counter deep striking oblits. Every model on the table being a vehicle is a slight problem for a lash prince. And after that, the chaos army is just getting outshot and outmaneuvered, and immune to the 'i pull you off of the objective with lash' shikanery.


Now if you want to play Devil's Advocate, throw some stuff about demons in there. I just got my head handed to me on saturday by a khorne list with my artillery heavy test list. I don't see the mystic as a 'hard' counter. But I may include it for tourney play just to soften the blow that demons are. Some other tweaks to my list will help. And him not getting so lucky with his reserves rolls and scatters.

By no means do i think guard are unbeatable, or even a stronger codex than orks. But it certainly seems they have enough gas to play in the big boy's room. And that is all I could have ever asked for.

DarthDiggler wrote:Playing Devil's Advocate.

If the Choir is such a threat, then the way to do it is kill the choir. If it's hiding in a vehicle, shoot the vehicle. Most good 40k lists worth their salt should find a way to get to the enemy they need to get to either through shooting them or assaulting them.

I'm not convinced Vendetta's can be the all encompassing threat they seem to be on paper. They need to come on in reserve, or start on the table and get shot. When they do come on don't they only move 6" to fire all three lascannons? That's not so fast. Any faster and it's only one lascannon firing or do they have a special rule I don't know about.

I suppose Fateweaver can come down turn 1. If no Vendetta's, then they come out on turn 2 with a 3+ right? That's not a sure thing. I'm sure the Bolt's of change and Soul Grinder mouth weapons, and flamers of Tzeentch will have nothing better to do then target the biggect threat to Fateweaver.

Likewise a more balanced Ork force with 1 Nob Biker unit wold devote some Loota fire or even boom gun fire into the threats for the Bikers if available.

Weaken resolve is nice, but it's not going to work against a bunch of fearless stuff (most chaos stuff or any Daemon list with no Fateweaver). Is there a better way to deal with Chaos Lash? Maybe all mech, which will always work against everyone while the Choir works great against a few things.

I really like the idea of the Choir used in conjuncture with assassins. The Culuxus and the Callidus both have great shooting attacks that are enhanced with a choir nearby.

Don't forget the Psychic Choir has a very nice blast weapon attack too, for those times when your facing a fearless army. And they are VERY cost effective for what they can do. I'm seeing them as almost a Guard "Obliterators" or even a "lash", in the sense that they add some interesting, and possibly very powerful, effects to the Guard army.

whitedragon wrote:Would a calidus assassin's neural shredder cause instant death against Bike Nobs?

EDIT:

And DDiggler, I believe that Valks are flyers, not skimmers and therefore can fire all their weapons as they move across the table.

If the targets Ld is half of the attack "strength" of 8, then yes, it inflicts instant death. So after psychic choir... (from the daemonhunters faq)

"Flyers" as a type exists only in Apocalypse and the forgeworld books. In regular 40k games Valkyries are skimmers.

Cent just posted a batrep for an IG build of his versus daemons. It all came down to one assault and that was a gamble.

G

It also wasn't a very optimized list - a solid list, yeah, but considering he was running without Valks/Vendettas, I think it could've been tighter.

You know I would an entire IG army shooting at the Fateweaver. White Devil made 18 saves in a row for him this past Saturday. Even if he does die it pretty much assures everything else goes untouched during the initial drop... Spread out a bit and multi-charge.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:You know I would an entire IG army shooting at the Fateweaver. White Devil made 18 saves in a row for him this past Saturday. Even if he does die it pretty much assures everything else goes untouched during the initial drop... Spread out a bit and multi-charge.

G

That is how it works against Daemons :( At least the Choir gives us a way to (usually) only have to put ONE wound on him (not easy).

Against Daemons you *need* Inq+Mystics, just to keep them from DS right on top of you. But that doesn't always stop them even. I played a Daemon player who DS Fateweaver and two units of 7 BC *right in front of my LRD + Inq Mystic*, after my shooting, he only had lost 2 BC total. It then took my whole turn of shooting to put 1 wound on FW (who thankful failed his Ld test). No, even w/ Choir, it is still hard to stop Daemons.

I also feel this "OotF is bad" is complete nonsense. Any Daemon player and droppod heavy SM player is not looking forward to this. Hell I just played a Nercon player who was (at the start of the game) already complaining that his Monolith is never going to come in (he rolled a on turn two, but oh well).


And as for the whole "your opponent will just shoot the Choir", this is just plain silly talk. IG players know how to screen units, do you think it is that hard to position AV14 in between Lootaz and your Choir?

Well since this core contains a DH inquisitor, just strap a psycannon to him. This should put a wound on Fateweaver fairly easily. Combined with a Psychic Choir that should pretty much be the end of Fateweaver, just using 2 units. this will leave the rest of the Guard army to take on the rest of the T3 4++ save models.

And as for shooting the Choir, who says there is just one Choir, they are cheap enough to take a couple, or even 3

Statistically only the Hydras plus a little bit more need to shoot at Fateweaver. 12 shots * .75 hits * 5/6 wounds = 7.5 wounds, only need 1.5 more wounds to get to 9 which is the sacred cow for putting one unsaved wound on Fateweaver. I realize that "Math" has become a four-letter-word, but if we assume that our buddies don't use cooked dice, then they're going to roll a 2 eventually.

wow just wow... Teh dice comment was uncalled for.

Psycannon is not by any means a guarenteed unsaved wound against Kairos... Three shots... Assume one misses and you wound on a 3+. Anybody with a modicum of sense would keep another unit between Kairos and the psycannon granting the cover save.

Like I said before Cent is no slouch at this game and he just squeaked out a win. I would put the money on his skill versus a walking Gouda list.

G

Weaken Resolve and Lash seem to really push towards fielding: 1) a way to reliably neutralize psyhic powers or 2) mounting up in transports. Both have ways to deal with big, expensive units (that are non-Fearless for WR) that aren't in a transport. Both need LOS, so you can try to run a vehicle screen to deny LOS, but I wouldn't count on it.

Nob Bikers will still win a lot of games. IG is not a hugely popular tourney army, not like MEQs. People will gamble they don't play them. Or they'll take a few trukks or battlewagons to screen the unit. It's like taking 3 monoliths - you're fine as long you don't draw that Tau player with 6 broadsides or 3 hammerheads in the first game or two.

Of course, fielding a bunch of cheap, small units has its own problems - usually keep them alive. Interesting time for 40k. Glad to see the metagame really messed with.

Makes me want to start a SW Bondsmen-themed IG force. You know, after building the rest of my Tau. And my SW tanks. And then refitting my SW army with the new codex. And after the 300 ork boyz I have get assembled and painted. And work on some Grey Knights and Inquisitors. And build the Baneblade that I won with my SW army - which would be perfect to go with the SW bondsmen IG force.....

IMHO lootas + 1 nob biker is stronger than 2 nob biker. I know from experience. I played a very good player and list in the adepticon tourney, and I found those two harder to deal with than just one big mob that doesnt split my focus.

Someone brought it up. I would quote but my internet is being very slow...

dietrich wrote:IG is not a hugely popular tourney army, not like MEQs.

I would really question this, once IG are assimilated more into the 'Net deck of effective lists. Orks weren't really a tournament army through 4th ed until 5th ed made them really effective. Now, according to the griping on this forum, most top tourney tables seem to spam various varieties of Ork lists. The high model count means they're not a cheap army to assemble, either (since AoBR doesn't really feature into the 'Net deck).

IG has the potential to be really, really good. I'm still waiting for my backordered plasma executioner turret from Forge World that I assume is out due to being oversold; I think a lot of people are jumping on the new codex now that it has options that are cool, fun, and powerful.

I agree. There's going to be a lot of new tactics being discovered over the next few weeks/months. Once people get the hang of the new stuff IG are gonna be seen at tourneys much more often.

sourclams wrote:

OddJob. wrote:
Of all of the big boy lists the one that the guard have no obvious answer for (not necessarily top trump-just answer) is the bike seer council. Multiple choirs and hope to get one weaken resolve off?

Unfortunately, that's about as good as I can come up with too. I think that currently, 100% GUYSPAM is actually stronger against "pure" seer bike council. The problem then of course is that against mech lists, you get tank shocked right off the table...

If you went the guyspam route (btw, I love this term, haven't heard it before this week), considering the cost of the guard, you could easily invest 50 points into giving 10 squad sergeants meltabombs. This way tank shocking goes from an easy way to knock Guard around to a pretty bad idea. Honestly, though, I can't remember if there are any differences between 4th & 5th ed tank shocking rules that might prevent this. Going against back armor, I'm pretty sure the meltabomb negates any toughness advantages of the Wave Serpent, and you're not really risking anything.

Biophysic wrote:If you went the guyspam route (btw, I love this term, haven't heard it before this week), considering the cost of the guard, you could easily invest 50 points into giving 10 squad sergeants meltabombs. This way tank shocking goes from an easy way to knock Guard around to a pretty bad idea. Honestly, though, I can't remember if there are any differences between 4th & 5th ed tank shocking rules that might prevent this. Going against back armor, I'm pretty sure the meltabomb negates any toughness advantages of the Wave Serpent, and you're not really risking anything.

I dont really see a need for this. All guardsmen come with Assault Grenades, which pretty much means they have the potential to glance a vehicle with rear armor 10. Especially when you have 50 guys nading your tank. (Thats about 3 glances, but still).