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THe problem with TH/SS terminators is you have to outlive all the PK attacks and make your invuls to be able to do anything useful. Too bad my terminators don't come with Fortune as I can rarely make a 3+ invul.

:(

Um...the TH/SS termies strike at the same time as the PK attacks.

sourclams wrote:That's a great expression of your opinion but you have nothing that refutes the empirical evidence.

Nob Bikes have multiwound models that take advantage of wound allocation, FNP, and combat resolution.

IG have long range instant death that ignores FNP and largely mechanized lists that ignore combat resolution paired with abilities that attack leadership.

Until you can refute that, please stop posting. I value field tests but your anecdotal shoot-from-the-hip counterpoints aren't valuable.

It's well known that nob bikers are resilient to ranged firepower. This includes ordnance. Like I said bfore and has been noted by others your premises are all based on your opponent's making all the wrong moves.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:It's well known that nob bikers are resilient to ranged firepower. This includes ordnance. Like I said bfore and has been noted by others your premises are all based on your opponent's making all the wrong moves.

G

The differrence here GBF, is that instead of having to kill them all off, thanks to re-rollable leadership 9. IG just has to kill 3 bikers. ANY 1750 army can kill 3 nob bikers even if they turbo boosted in a single round. A list that has strength 8 ordnance, tons of lascannons, large blasts that are ap4 and ignore cover saves, and more heavy weapons than the nob bikers have models, there isn't a problem here.

You can re-roll your leadership 2 all day long, but your unit is running. If IG is in position to escort your units off the table, we are talking about a three turn tabling. I don't see how holding your bikers in reserve against a fleet officer, or turbo-boosting "differently than we'd expect" is going to save you.

My IG list will likely still have a hard time against nob bikers, because I haven't yet included a choir. And I run mostly strength 6 ordnance (although it does ignore cover and a 4+ armor). But a guy that doesn't want to lose against nob bikers with his IG, isn't going to lose against them if he is even remotely aware of how nob bikers work.

Doing anything with nob bikers other than getting as close as possible to the IG army as fast as possible is not some 'tricky' strategy. Its just the nob biker player getting shot at MORE before being taken out by a failed morale test.

Like I said I am not a nob biker player but I am very familar with their central tenets. I think one way to counter the new IG with nob bikers is to drop one one warboss and nob biker unit and replace them with other units that are better at dealing with IG from range. You would have a lot of points to play with and just about everything in the ork codex is cheap so this could go a long way.

The thing about using mystics is that their effective range is only 14". The IG cannot pack everything around this one unit. Why would a daemon army intentionally land all their units within that bubble? A smart player wouldn't. I have played against super shooty Tau with a pure assault daemon army (no shooting in my list) and won. Sure the shooting is strong but a little bit of assault can go a long way against armies like Tau and IG. You can beat these armies with less than half of yours if you know what you are doing.

I'm not a big fan of the math hammer but it has it's place and I respect that but it only goes so far. You can stat an army's capabilities to death and back but it doesn't even come close to telling the whole story... Tactics are where it's at end of the day. Tactics are always stronger than stats in the hands of a capable player.

G

PanamaG wrote:The math for the averages is correct, no one is arguing that lol. What we are arguing is how you manage to make the math matter, how you plan on using that on the table. Unfortunately it cant really be argued because as I said before theoryhammer doesnt work. Im also not trying to argue that nobz are auto win vs guard or anything, I am just saying what you have proposed isnt as likely to happen as you think and isnt the auto win solution for guard.

We're discussing on the internet here, all we have is statistics. We use statistics to analyze the likely outcome of decisions you make during the game. We use knowledge of these statistics in game to affect our decision making. i.e. Do you shoot your single BS3 Lascannon at a Land Raider or Rhino, knowing the statistical outcome of these events greatly informs your decision.

Likewise, you use statistics to inform your army building decisions. "I need to kill Nob Bikers, what is the likely outcome of me shooting 10 Lasguns at them? Not good, what is the likely outcome of me shooting 9 twin-linked Lascannons at them? Likely outcome is that 1-2 Nobs will die. Decision to make, do I include a three Vendetta squadron."

@Sourclaims:The Nob Biker discussion becomes moot when you add a Witch Hunter Inquisitor w/ Divine Pronouncement. If after they break, you have a Guard squad in charge range, there is no need to escort them off the table, they will fail to rally when charged and be wiped out.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Like I said I am not a nob biker player but I am very familar with their central tenets. I think one way to counter the new IG with nob bikers is to drop one one warboss and nob biker unit and replace them with other units that are better at dealing with IG from range. You would have a lot of points to play with and just about everything in the ork codex is cheap so this could go a long way.

Yep. The true nob biker list with nothing but nobs and grots just isn't supported. Take some deffkoptas and some lootas, and you'll have a lot better of a chance of turning off the IG kill combo. But by cutting the nob biker army in half, you've made it a lot less of a shock and awe list versus others. That will make a lot of people happy to face something with a bit more balance.

Green Blow Fly wrote:The thing about using mystics is that their effective range is only 14". The IG cannot pack everything around this one unit. Why would a daemon army intentionally land all their units within that bubble? A smart player wouldn't. I have played against super shooty Tau with a pure assault daemon army (no shooting in my list) and won. Sure the shooting is strong but a little bit of assault can go a long way against armies like Tau and IG. You can beat these armies with less than half of yours if you know what you are doing.

I'm with you here, so far. Adding 2 KP to your army to get a 14" (maybe) bubble of overwatch against two armies just doesn't seem worth it. I'm maintaining my healthy respect for well built demon armies with IG.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I'm not a big fan of the math hammer but it has it's place and I respect that but it only goes so far. You can stat an army's capabilities to death and back but it doesn't even come close to telling the whole story... Tactics are where it's at end of the day. Tactics are always stronger than stats in the hands of a capable player.

I agree. But I disagree that there is much to do tactically with 2 units of nob bikers against a shooty army with a fleet officer. Charge as many units as you can per turn, as early as you can. There will be at least one turn before you can make that charge. If your unit has a high probability of being taken out by a combo in one turn, then you need to break that combo. You can't break a combo by turbo boosting your whole army and saying 'go'.

Demons on the other hand, have tricks and choices to make, and I'd give a lot more respect to their generalship than a biker list.

Green Blow Fly wrote:The thing about using mystics is that their effective range is only 14". The IG cannot pack everything around this one unit.

It's very possible to stack 6 chimera-sized tanks, 3 Vendettas, and 2 Leman Russes inside a 14" bubble. Go set it up on the table.

Likewise, since we're talking about good players who "use tactics!", the IG player can set up a corner castle with the mystics forward in the Vendettas. Line of sight is unimpeded because of the tall flight stands, and you only need one artillery tank out of the squadron within 6" of the Mystical Vendetta in order to launch death. You've effectively doubled the size of the no-drop zone because if Daemons land behind the Vendis, they get eaten by tanks, and if they scatter they deepstrike mishap, so they're forced to land 14+ inches from the Mystical Vendetta and 20+" from the actual castle. On turn 5, after all the daemons are dead, you use superior mobility to contest/claim objectives.

@Sourclaims:

Nice typo

The Nob Biker discussion becomes moot when you add a Witch Hunter Inquisitor w/ Divine Pronouncement. If after they break, you have a Guard squad in charge range, there is no need to escort them off the table, they will fail to rally when charged and be wiped out.

I agree, it's easy to tailor IG to absolutely wipe out Nob Bikers. However a WH Inquisitor disallows the DH Inquisitor, and I find mystics to be more valuable since they basically shut down Daemons and drop Marines. Nob Bikers are a list I don't foresee IG having trouble with so taking even more anti-Nob Biker stuff is unnecessary [in my opinion].

If I know I'm not playing Daemons/Drop marines, though... Witchhammer, baby!

Stop it guys!

I MUST resist adding inquisitorial forces to my lists. To be perfectly honest, the number one reason I don't want to paint any mystics or any witch hunter inquisitors, is that I'm so crazy about collections and completing them.

Rather than just retire the 4 or 5 minis I painted when the new witch/demon/alien hunters books come out, I'd be compelled to 'finish' my witch hunter army (that is comprised of a single model). Or my demon hunter army, that has a single inquis and two mystics.

GW loves me though haha...

sourclams wrote:

@Sourclaims:

Nice typo

My fault, I didn't look close enough at your screen name. Sincerely meant no disrespect.

None taken mate, none taken.

Nice analysis and very close to what I was planning on using as a core to my army.

Can't wait to bring this pain!

I'm pretty sure atleast several IG players have thought of this by now, but one way to half-eliminate everyone's feud with nob bikers is:

since this is just a basic core list(and a very good one indeed, given good circumstances), a good idea I've recently thought is... meat wall

it's pretty much what all IG units do already, but this time, it's 2 seperate squads(or 1 entire, I haven't looking in the dex much for this) of Conscripts, and line them all out directly infront of the entire army, maximizing the 2" space between bases, and put Chenkov in with them.

with this, you'll have 2(or 1) looong, stretched-out line of assault fodder. the reason I say have 2 seperate squads is just incase the opponent brings up 2 squads as well, then they'll still be forced to assault the second conscript squad

and with Chenkov's "Send in the Next Wave," at the end of the assault turn, you can remove all Conscripts as necessary, and since you have all your other guardsmen right there behind where the 'scripts where, there's no doubt that you could lay some massacre on some nob bikers with 30-50 lasguns within 12" (rapid fire) utilizing FRFSRF, that can amount from 90-150 lasgun shots.

and with the psykers dropping their Ld(if I am correct in theorizing this?), the nob bikers will more than likely be forced to fall back with what few they have left.

that right there is just a small-ish squad of Conscripts with Chenkov, and 1 full merged platoon of guard, included into your core list. I'm going to take a wild guess and say that will amount to... let's see.. 25-30 conscripts in total(100-120pts maybe) with Chenkov(150pts???? I dunno how much he costs) and one full platoon of 50, which will prolly be 300-450pts? not counting any HWS yet.

ifyouseekamy wrote:
and with Chenkov's "Send in the Next Wave," at the end of the assault turn, you can remove all Conscripts as necessary, and since you have all your other guardsmen right there behind where the 'scripts where, there's no doubt that you could lay some massacre on some nob bikers with 30-50 lasguns within 12" (rapid fire) utilizing FRFSRF, that can amount from 90-150 lasgun shots.

150 Lasgun shots
75 hits
12.5 wounds
6.25 failed armor saves
3.125 failed Feel No Pain saves
Thats not enough to kill a single Nob biker.

Sad, I know.

Template weapons can target armor and destroy any units any between. IG troops have no defense versus templates. I have a Tzneetch daemon army list I have dubbed the Shake and Bake that will take the wind out of the sails of all new IG lists I have seen so far.

If you pack your army in tight for a 30 point unit I have all the room in the world to land my daemons where I want them.

Nob bikers... Let's take some deff koptas and put outflank to great use. I can counter your theory lists all day long. My comments are based on game play not math hammer.

G

kadun wrote:

@Sourclaims:The Nob Biker discussion becomes moot when you add a Witch Hunter Inquisitor w/ Divine Pronouncement. If after they break, you have a Guard squad in charge range, there is no need to escort them off the table, they will fail to rally when charged and be wiped out.

Wait...So one can Weaken Resolve a dangerous, non-Fearless unit, make it fall back with shooting, and then auto-kill them on the charge? It seems like a good idea. With that in mind, would it be worth it to keep a min sized squad of Roughriders for just that purpose?

GBF. Problem with the outflanking deffkoptas (I think) is that IG can stop reseves coming on if they include certain guys...am I right?

Anyway, I already have a lot of respect for IG, with the new dex and this template to help out. I think my nids are in for a tough time.

^Advisors, mystics, inquisitors, other things that stop outflankers, yadda yadda. Are we all just assuming that the IG lisdt is going to have every anti movement asset in it? Is it also going to have every potential pie plate and lascannon?

Not a dig on you personally Lukus just the theme of the thread.

And as a solution to your stated problem, just turbo in the scout move.

No worries. I'm just slighty concerned about my stealers that use outflank in my nidzilla list...conundrum.

Ive said it before & ill say it again.. decent lists (aside from various special flavours) will invole using troops well. That'll mean having 2 large infantry platoon with heavy weapons (maybe some plasma/snipers) led by a command-chimera-hq. Add in lots of fun armor. Add in some vendettas. Shave off 10 guard or so and load up said vendettas for scoring mobility.

That should come first & base everything around that.

(Or a vet-chimera wall)

(Oooooh thats why hydras are useful. You actually get two hyrdra long ranged autocannons. And thier twinlinked. Riiight. I thought it was just one normal extra-ranged autocannon - all that ignore fancy cover rules.. Hmm.)

sourclams wrote:It's very possible to stack 6 chimera-sized tanks, 3 Vendettas, and 2 Leman Russes inside a 14" bubble. Go set it up on the table.

I am definitely going to disagree with you on this one. The Valk/vend itself is 11" long and has a wingspan of roughly 10" as well. Fitting 3 inside a 14" bubble, while possible, is very tight, and trying to jimmy another 8 tanks inside is even harder. While I can see that it MIGHT be possible to get all these vehicles inside a 14" bubble, you are crammed in so tight that you are going to kill all your firing lanes, and be easy meat for assaulting units. In short, it would be a terrible idea to pack in like that. Furthermore, This requires that you are setting up 29" from your table edge; something not possible in any of the standard deployments on a 4'X6' board. Scooting all the way out to the 24" line, as is possible in spearhead (and DoW, but you cant start with all that on the board in DoW) also makes you terribly vulnerable to assault from reserve units coming in on his table edge, or outflanking. But, lets assume you do get everything inside this bubble, and do roll your average 14" detection range. What are you going to shoot with? Shooting ordinance, especially squadron based ordinance is a terrible idea. Packed in so tight, you are very likely to destroy your own stuff with scatters. Provided you can even draw a LOS through that mess.

Even worse, you dont have the infantry screen you talk about, to prevent your opponent from munching through your tanks. And if you add that in, you are extending beyond your mystic's safety zone, giving your demon opponent a safe avenue into your lines.


Not doubting the Mystiquisitor for it's ability to control a DSing opponent's deployments, in fact, I think that alone is worth 32 pts, probably moreso. I just think its magical thinking to think you can automatically protect your entire army with a gimmicky trick.

SourClams I am loving the detail that you have put into your research and appreciate the time you put into this. I had never even thought about including the DH inquisitor with mystics to help solve some of the problems I was seeing with a couple of the army concepts I have been working on. My only question is how do you plan on protecting both the inquisitor and the CCS?

*passes torch*

*walks away*

PanamaG wrote:^Advisors, mystics, inquisitors, other things that stop outflankers, yadda yadda. Are we all just assuming that the IG lisdt is going to have every anti movement asset in it? Is it also going to have every potential pie plate and lascannon?

Not a dig on you personally Lukus just the theme of the thread.

And as a solution to your stated problem, just turbo in the scout move.

Anti-Movement Assets of Importance:
Officer of the Fleet (-1 Reserves, reroll outflanking rolls): 30 Points
Inquisitor w/ 2 Mystics: 32 Points

62 points buys an awful lot of anti-movement assets. This leaves a lot of room for pie-plates, lascannons, and meltas.

A quick question about Weaken Resolve vs. Orks. I don't have my Ork book in front of me since a friend who is thinking about starting a Ork army is borrowing it.

I have seen a few people on various forums post that they're not sure that weaken resolve works against the Ork leadership rule (LD = mob size). Does anyone have their Ork book handy to see exactly how this is worded?

"Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value. If an Ork mob numbers 11 or more models, it has the Fearless special rule."

"For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utilizing the power."

I'd say that the orks will suffer from Weaken Resolve, since they actually replace their "normal leadership value" with their numbers. And they will suffer the same reduction the rest of their turn, no matter if they use their statline Ld or their numbers Ld. So an ork mob (Ld7) of 9 Orks, suffering a -4 weaken would have the choice of an effective Ld of 3 or 5 for the remainder of the turn. An ork squad with 11 or more models won't care much about their reduced leadership though, due to being fearless.

It is not extremely clear cut though, so feel free to bring it to the YMDC-forum.

Mellon, I very much agree with your interpretation based upon the wording you posted. I'm not sure where the confusion was coming from but I have seen it posted enough to feel that is was worth asking.

PanamaG wrote:^Advisors, mystics, inquisitors, other things that stop outflankers, yadda yadda. Are we all just assuming that the IG lisdt is going to have every anti movement asset in it? Is it also going to have every potential pie plate and lascannon?

Well we are talking in a thread about a proposed IG "core" that has most of those things included.

Kind of a weird point, but no one has brought it up: the company commanders "Fire on my target" order (enemies re-roll successful cover saves) work nicely with heavy weapons vs. bikers.

It also interacts in a strange way with Fortune: any given die can only be re-rolled once, regardless of source. So Bikers that make their initial cover save re-roll it from the order, and those that fail don't get to re-roll again. Bikers who fail their initial save re-roll from Fortune, and those that save don't have to re-roll again. Math-wise it's pretty simple -- every initial save gets re-rolled! So, assuming you're AP 3, you've got triple effectiveness against bike councils.

Ketsugami, you are damn clever!

It's such a shame that heavy squads cannot combine, and only have Ld7, so it will not be extremely powerful, but rather useful.