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sourclams wrote:

Nob bikers... blahblahgarbage

You start in reserve. On turn 2, there is a 2/3 chance that one Nob biker squad comes on. You turboboost and claim a 3+. I shoot you with 9 TL lascannons and deal almost 2 instadeath wounds with that one squadron alone, and it's a 1/5 chance whether one goes onto the warboss. My entire army then deals one more instadeath wound, and the psychic choir force you to take leadership at *2*.

If you go first, you hit my infantry screen and disintegrate them, and then I do the same thing to you again. I can just keep bouncing your bikes back and forth until you run out of bikes or run off the table.

I spent a lot of time on my analyses and indices, and I post here to actually try to help IG players optimize their lists from a mathematical and synergistic basis. I welcome constructive criticism and valuable playtest experience, but if all you've got is poorly thought out anecdotal false garbage, save everybody's time.

You clearly spent (wasted) a lot of time on this, but in at least this one instance, you don't know what you're talking about. You shoot your 400 points worth of lascannons at the nobs, put one wound on the boss, ID a biker, whatever. Then you blow your "weaken resolve" load, and maybe kill one or two whole bikes with the rest of your army. Guess what? The bikes can still substitute their mob size (probably 7-8 bikes) and use the boss pole instead of their LD 2.

In any case, it's cute that you're pulling out your little spreadsheets and trying to suck the fun out of another army book, but don't throw a hissyfit when folks like GBF poke holes in the powergaming filth - respond to criticism like a grown-up. Maybe you should start planning for when GW pulls the plug on the gimmicky 3rd edition allies BS.

And stop using words like "synergistic", it makes you sound like a tool.

Edit: I'm not sure how the Mob rule works with weaken resolve, actually. Do you substitute the number of orks in the mob for the leadership before or after weaken resolve alters the original leadership value?

Dumbuket: Did you read the discussion on page 3 of this thread? The one about substituting numbers of orks for normal Ld? It seems pretty clear, imho, that even after the substitution the nobz will suffer from weaken resolve.

And please, mind your manners and your language. You are on a discussionboard that is generally pretty free from the usual internet filth. I like it that way. Calling people "tool" and "cute" and using phrases like "Guess what?" is not helping that standard. I really do think you should try to relax on your prestige.

0ldsk00l wrote:

sourclams wrote:It's very possible to stack 6 chimera-sized tanks, 3 Vendettas, and 2 Leman Russes inside a 14" bubble. Go set it up on the table.

I am definitely going to disagree with you on this one. The Valk/vend itself is 11" long and has a wingspan of roughly 10" as well. Fitting 3 inside a 14" bubble, while possible, is very tight, and trying to jimmy another 8 tanks inside is even harder. While I can see that it MIGHT be possible to get all these vehicles inside a 14" bubble, you are crammed in so tight that you are going to kill all your firing lanes, and be easy meat for assaulting units. In short, it would be a terrible idea to pack in like that.

The Valk/Vend are on a 6" tall flying stand with a base that has less of a footprint than a Chimera chassis. You can easily pack in tanks underneath the Valk/Vend hull.

Green Blow Fly wrote:

The thing about using mystics is that their effective range is only 14".

G

Well, mystics actually have an effective range of 4D6, but it's statistically very likely to get 14", which is the average. As such, when using mystics, just assume they will have a 14" range, although 1's will ruin your day and you could get 6's also.

-A.

Where are people getting this idea that Orks have an ability that is better than Stubborn when they're below 11 models?

If Orks have 10 models after an assault and lost the assault by 5, then they're testing at 5 not 10. Subbing does not make their Leadership immune to modification.




Just because the average roll for mystics is 14" does not mean your opponent is going to risk it an DS 15" away. You'd be surprised how many people play it safe and land 25" out.

H.B.M.C. wrote:*passes torch*

*walks away*

You'll eventually get back from that fishing trip.

I like the analysis. I don't like the repercussions, because it means my current army needs a lot of work to be brought up to fighting trim, but I think Sourclams has got the basic idea down pretty well for a pre-release tactica.

As for the whole nob biker things, I think this list gives the IG a punchers chance against them, which is more than they had before or would have with most other lists. Sure, you can tailor a list to beat this one, but isn't that true for nearly any list? Saying you can create a list to beat an all comers list only means that you can spot and exploit a weakness. Sourclams posted a core that was meant to deal with common tournament lists. If you want to knock it down, and I've got no problem if somebody does, you should do so with the standard lists.

Here are my thoughts:

Using Vendettas as your primary lascannon source seems risky. Shaking AV12 isn't that hard (as every eldar player knows), and the Vendetta doesn't have anything to make it more durable. It's a steal for what it does and what it costs, but it's also pretty fragile.

Hydras seem overly specialized to be in a take on all comers list. Mech eldar isn't what it used to be, and the points spent on hydras could be put toward other things. On the other hand, long range S7 firepower isn't bad by a long shot.

I think, rather than a core of many IG armies, you've discovered some of the strongest aspects of the list to build towards a highly synergistic tournament list.

Of course the eldar player knows when you use fire on my target, and if he's smart he'll use his invulnerable save.

Guys - this thread is generating a bit of heat - please keep it polite and attack the argument/theory and not the user...

Polonius wrote:I like the analysis. I don't like the repercussions, because it means my current army needs a lot of work to be brought up to fighting trim, but I think Sourclams has got the basic idea down pretty well for a pre-release tactica.

Thanks.

Using Vendettas as your primary lascannon source seems risky. Shaking AV12 isn't that hard (as every eldar player knows), and the Vendetta doesn't have anything to make it more durable. It's a steal for what it does and what it costs, but it's also pretty fragile.

I don't disagree, however they're AV12 vehicles with twin link all the time for 130 points, which is a very small premium over a regular non-twin link lascannon HWS that suffers from a plethora of issues. I think mech target saturation is going to work very heavily in the guards' favor; yes, you can shoot and shake+ AV12 pretty reliably, however if you blast the Vendis then you're not shooting the artillery and such. Likewise they're far, far more mobile than other lascannon platforms the IG have, and the option of outflanking to blow away light transports and walkers isn't inconsiderable. Basically, you can't kill the Vendettas while also killing the other vehicles. They're just too good for the points, and I think you touched on that in your post.

Hydras seem overly specialized to be in a take on all comers list. Mech eldar isn't what it used to be, and the points spent on hydras could be put toward other things.

I agree that Mech Eldar isn't what it used to be, but the Hydra is the single best model in the IG codex, if not the game, capable of stopping a SMF wave serpent. Everyone is onboard with autocannons being good, and the Hydra, being a vehicle and being able to abuse damage allocation as part of a squadron, and being able to abuse cover rules as part of a squadron, means that the Hydra is the best autocannon platform out there. Could points be spent on better things? I'm willing to debate it (and I have a thread doing so), but I typically find myself taking the Hydra.

I think, rather than a core of many IG armies, you've discovered some of the strongest aspects of the list to build towards a highly synergistic tournament list.

I realize that anyone who posts a 'best of' list is going to catch a lot of flak. I would ask anyone to propose a better core, either cheaper or more synergistic, that can beat the strengths of this one.

Thank you for your comments.

Guys - this thread is generating a bit of heat - please keep it polite and attack the argument/theory and not the user...

Analysis is not spelled A-N-E-C-D-O-T-E.

sourclams wrote:

Polonius wrote:
Using Vendettas as your primary lascannon source seems risky. Shaking AV12 isn't that hard (as every eldar player knows), and the Vendetta doesn't have anything to make it more durable. It's a steal for what it does and what it costs, but it's also pretty fragile.

I don't disagree, however they're AV12 vehicles with twin link all the time for 130 points, which is a very small premium over a regular non-twin link lascannon HWS that suffers from a plethora of issues. I think mech target saturation is going to work very heavily in the guards' favor; yes, you can shoot and shake+ AV12 pretty reliably, however if you blast the Vendis then you're not shooting the artillery and such. Likewise they're far, far more mobile than other lascannon platforms the IG have, and the option of outflanking to blow away light transports and walkers isn't inconsiderable. Basically, you can't kill the Vendettas while also killing the other vehicles. They're just too good for the points, and I think you touched on that in your post.

Which I figured, but it makes the notion that this is a 900pt core a little misleading. It's really at minimum a 1200pts core (assuming you add at least two russes), but you state upfront that you assume at least two tanks with plasma sponsons, which reaches 200pts a piece in a hurry. Adding two demolishers to make the list a 1300pt core makes it more well rounded, but also means there are now only 550 for troops.

I'd have to try it out, but I'm going to build my first three valk kits as Valkyries, and see how triple melta vets work to drop tanks. The problem with the vendetta is that it's not really that good against landraiders, and can't really stand and try to outshoot any tanks. A shaken Valk with vets can still cause damage, while the vendetta is just running for cover. Sure, you can throw vets in a vendetta, but then you have the struggle between moving, shooting, and delivering payload. It is such a ridiculously cheap unit though, that it will probably simply be a mainstay.

Hydras seem overly specialized to be in a take on all comers list. Mech eldar isn't what it used to be, and the points spent on hydras could be put toward other things.

I agree that Mech Eldar isn't what it used to be, but the Hydra is the single best model in the IG codex, if not the game, capable of stopping a SMF wave serpent. Everyone is onboard with autocannons being good, and the Hydra, being a vehicle and being able to abuse damage allocation as part of a squadron, and being able to abuse cover rules as part of a squadron, means that the Hydra is the best autocannon platform out there. Could points be spent on better things? I'm willing to debate it (and I have a thread doing so), but I typically find myself taking the Hydra.

I think it also depends how often you fight eldar, I suppose. I almost never face them, so I'm not too worried. BTW, I think Eldar have the toughest time with AV12 as well, as they have limited access to multi-shot S7 or S8 weapons.

I think, rather than a core of many IG armies, you've discovered some of the strongest aspects of the list to build towards a highly synergistic tournament list.

I realize that anyone who posts a 'best of' list is going to catch a lot of flak. I would ask anyone to propose a better core, either cheaper or more synergistic, that can beat the strengths of this one.

Thank you for your comments.

What I meant was, and I touched on this above, is that this isn't really a core of a list, so much as the beginnings of a fair specific build. This core matches well with some Russes, mabye some artillery, vets in chimeras or Valks, and enough gunline to keep the enemy honest.

Very well thought out analysis and posting. Very much appreciated. Can't wait for my pre-order codex and valk kits to get here in a couple weeks. I play mostly ork, Nurgle CSM, Necron, and SM bike armies around here...so will be interesting to add some finishing touches to this core template and see what kind of damage I can do.

~Bart

ifyouseekamy wrote: and put Chenkov in with them.

with this, you'll have 2(or 1) looong, stretched-out line of assault fodder. the reason I say have 2 seperate squads is just incase the opponent brings up 2 squads as well, then they'll still be forced to assault the second conscript squad

and with Chenkov's "Send in the Next Wave," at the end of the assault turn, you can remove all Conscripts as necessary, and since you have all your other guardsmen right there behind where the 'scripts where, there's no doubt that you could lay some massacre on some nob bikers with 30-50 lasguns within 12" (rapid fire) utilizing FRFSRF, that can amount from 90-150 lasgun shots.

Just to clarify a couple things here, Chenkov goes in the Platoon Command Squad, then ANY Conscript squad can purchase the ability to recycle. Which they will do at the beginning of the IG players movement. but you can still accomplish the same thing. unfortunately you can't make the conscript fearless, without Creed, and your going to have to put a lord commissar near them to get the order off. But it's the pretty much the same thing Necron players have been doing to everyone with VOD for awhile now.

sourclams wrote:Then prove me wrong.

Speeding Nobs: 3+ cover save

3 Vendettas: 9 TL Lascannons

Turn 1: You speed Nobz 24"

I shoot you with 9 TL lascannons; 6.75 hit 5.625 wounds. 1 Wound on Warboss, 4.625 on Nobz. After 4+ cover saves, you lose 1/3 Warboss + 1.54 Nobz. It's going to be between 1 and 2 Nob Bikes dead. Now my entire army has to kill only 1-2 more Bikes and I hit you with the Psychic Choir and you run away 35/36 of the time.

T2: Your other Nob Bikes hit half of my layered infantry screen and kill them. (assuming I have 2-4 squads in 2 layers; 20"-40" across the table).

I do the same thing again. Your other Bike squadron rallies and turbos again to get back close. They hit the rest of my infantry screen and kill them.

I just keep doing this and squash you, and this is the best case where you go first and I don't get 2 turns of shooting before you hit my infantry screen.

Prove the math wrong, that's all I ask. You're going to run out of Nobz on turn 3.

I'm loving the anti-nob bikers ideas. One thing to remember, that if they do rally during their turn they can move ONLY 3", so no turbo-boosting to get back close. so it's very easy to hit them again with the plan from sourclams, and they should be almost, if not off the board by now.

Don't have my book to verify, but if that's true then... yeah. Nob Bikers were fun for 4 months, and now they're done. Great find.

sourclams wrote:Don't have my book to verify, but if that's true then... yeah. Nob Bikers were fun for 4 months, and now they're done. Great find.

Yep! check out page 46 under Regrouping. They cannot move during that movement phase, but can still shoot, and make an assault. It makes the only real weakness (and up till now it wasn't much of one) of the nobs (leadership test) even worse by making their leadership so bad. make them take a morale test or pinning test at after Weaken Resolve is done, and the Ork player pretty much loses control of them.

Vs Nobz Bikers, wouldnt a Psyker Battle Squad and Callidus Assassin combo be awesome for taking them down?

On the turn the Callidus arrives, drop her next to the Nobz Bikers.
Zoom your PBS Chimera to within LOS and range of the Nobz.
Weaken Resolve to Ld 4 or less, Neural Shredder is Str 8 vs Ld 4, so 2+ wound, AP1, ignores FNP, ignores cover, and instakills.

The only downside is that you have to take a Inquisitor Lord HQ...

Polonius wrote:Using Vendettas as your primary lascannon source seems risky. Shaking AV12 isn't that hard (as every eldar player knows), and the Vendetta doesn't have anything to make it more durable. It's a steal for what it does and what it costs, but it's also pretty fragile.

Hydras seem overly specialized to be in a take on all comers list. Mech eldar isn't what it used to be, and the points spent on hydras could be put toward other things. On the other hand, long range S7 firepower isn't bad by a long shot.

I think, rather than a core of many IG armies, you've discovered some of the strongest aspects of the list to build towards a highly synergistic tournament list.

The beauty of the vendi's is that they can scout. If you take the proper officers in the CCS you can outflank rather early (and help keep them from being exposed to early counter fire) and start shooting some of those annoying obscured ork battlewagons in the nice soft av12 side armor or av10 rear armor and really do some damage to 'em.

Mech eldar is one of the biggest weaknesses of this list and something needs to be done to try to neutralize it for an all-comers list.

And as you yourself stated, long range str7 ap4 shooting doesn't suck on it's own.

Well, I'm coming around to the realization that Vendettas are simply a stupidly cheap source of lascannons. What worries me is that lascannons in general aren't as good as they used to be. Of course, being able to either scout or outflank makes it far more likely to be able to set up flank shots.

My point was that while the Hydras do what they do well, and are generally pretty decent, they're biggest strength is against a list that isn't as common as it was even a year ago. As a generally good unit, three hydras should be in every serious discussion about army building, but to place it as a core IG unit to be found in nearly every list seems a bit over zealous.

Another point in favour of the hydra is the IG mirror match- who isn't going to feild multiple detta/valks?

I think nob bikers easily had a lot more than four months of success. We'll see how they fare in the future.

G

One thing I want to get in the open is that the master of the fleet is not worth it.

The -1 to your opponents reserves is a must not a may. And this will see many Guard players lose. A smart general will set up his entire army in reserve against a shooting opponent if he is to go second. The fewer turns the guard player has to shoot, the more likely he is to lose, especially in an objectives mission. Against demons the same is true. Demons do better piecemeal.

Darkness it seems a lot of people just dont understand and continue to heap unearned praised on a new army we all know is hyped up just like every other one. I do think IG will be more competitive but it's just too early to say that they will clean house. For example I can see them having a lot of problems with daemons and lash spam. Both of these armies have a lot to choose from in their arsenals to counter the new IG threats.

G

Darkness wrote:One thing I want to get in the open is that the master of the fleet is not worth it.

The -1 to your opponents reserves is a must not a may. And this will see many Guard players lose. A smart general will set up his entire army in reserve against a shooting opponent if he is to go second. The fewer turns the guard player has to shoot, the more likely he is to lose, especially in an objectives mission. Against demons the same is true. Demons do better piecemeal.

Deamons do better piecemeal? Seriously? You do know what happens to armies that are half the points cost of the opposition for most of the game? The only reserve unit I can see this being bad against is the eldar 3 jetbike scoring unit reserve (fairly popular this side of the pond). Everyone else wants their reserves in early to mass against a portion of the enemy. Never mind the ability to mess with outflank.

I view the OotF as the only mandatory advisor for take all comers.

edit- @GBF
Soulclams has shown us how the choir unit deals with nob bikers, fairly conclusively and convincingly. Your attitude of- I know best, nu-uh, is only making you look a bit silly. Feel free to attack the arguement rather than boosting your post count with non-useful one liners.

Vendetta + 10 guardsmen shaved off from a large platoon.

Harker + 10 vets, 3melta, 1 h.bolter, chimera.

Astropath

= win.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I think nob bikers easily had a lot more than four months of success. We'll see how they fare in the future.

G

Yes they have.

Nob Bikers ate my firstborn though, apparently others as well.

Darkness wrote:One thing I want to get in the open is that the master of the fleet is not worth it.

The -1 to your opponents reserves is a must not a may. And this will see many Guard players lose. A smart general will set up his entire army in reserve against a shooting opponent if he is to go second. The fewer turns the guard player has to shoot, the more likely he is to lose, especially in an objectives mission. Against demons the same is true. Demons do better piecemeal.

This is a very good point. Too bad many guard players will have to lose several games to realize this. Too many people focus on X kills X when there is so much more than that.

how will taking one model, that is the cost of 6 guardsmen, make the guard player lose. Especially when he will come in very handy in those times where his ability is utilized.

and as for daemons doing better piecemeal... The only daemons that would prefer to come in later would be plaguebearers. All the others really need support to come in quickly, or they will get bogged down, and destoryed. Daemons depend on target saturation, and when they can only do that during the first turn they start to become weak.

I'm not sure where the hate that is being directed at the OP is coming from.

Go back and read his original post(s). Nowhere does he imply that IG will be the dominant force in tournaments and that you will automatically win all your games if you take his suggestions. Nor is he saying that this is the *only* way to play the Imperial Guard and win.

Also, in no way by him presenting this idea does is somehow suck the fun out of the codex. If you like to play Guard however you like to play it then him presenting this idea shouldn't affect you in the least.

He is simply presenting his take on how to configure the guard in a pure form how to best tackle the types of lists that seem to pop up at tournaments fairly regularly.

As with *ALL* army list suggestions, simply playing the army isn't going to win the game for you. Of course your opponent is going to be doing everything in their power to avoid your key strategies while you as the IG player will be doing the same.


I, for one, found this to be a very interesting read and I would love to see some IG winning tournaments in the future on a regular basis. I think his concepts have merit and while they certainly don't mean you'll automatically win, pretending these strategies just won't work at all is equally as silly.

For me, I won't be going anywhere an army like this. It if far, far too gimmicky for my tastes, but then again I don't have any desire to try to combat tournament cheese lists and/or try to actually win tournaments. I'd much rather come with my mid-level IG army I enjoy and get my ass handed to me instead.


But again, great thread sourclams. I appreciate the time and effort you put into it!

It is a good thread for the information presented here how to build a versatile list. I did come away with the impression that some statements came across as IG FTW... I will go back and read through the entire thread again.

edit - @GBF
Soulclams has shown us how the choir unit deals with nob bikers, fairly conclusively and convincingly. Your attitude of- I know best, nu-uh, is only making you look a bit silly. Feel free to attack the arguement rather than boosting your post count with non-useful one liners.

Armies such as nob bikers and daemons have a lot of options, especially daemons. I think IG will be a lot more competitive now but it's not time to put away those other armies yet either. I think Tzneetch lists in general are going to be nasty for IG to counter. Nob bikers only need to drop one biker squad to take other units needed to deal with IG such as Lootas.

G

But if the Nob Biker list has to take away one unit of Nob Bikers, is it a Nob Biker list anymore?

I like the core IG presented here, though I might not go so far with the Vendetta's. Maybe 1 Vendetta and 1 Valkyrie with upgraded missile pods in seperate squadrons for me. I'm not sure the 3 vendetta's will offer much against a classic Ork Horde list while the Valkryries will shine. For a strong Take all Comers list, I would rely on 3 Meltagun vets in Chimera's for the strongest armor punching and possibly a Meltacannon hellhound. I have been underwelmed with the Lascannons ability to punch through armor 14 in 5th edition.