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Caffran9 wrote:
I'm curently playing 2 units. That will change when the meta shifts into something that is more heavily mechanized/less reliant on slogging infantry and such. The PSBs are simply fantastic against things like Nob Bikes, Eldar Bikes, horde orks, Kairos, big termie units, etc. With this in mind, while I keep seeing lots of armies with composition similar to those lists, I'll probably keep running 2. One unit may be all you need though, I've been really wishing I could free up points for another LR variant in my list and the first thing I see to drop is a PSB.

The way I see it, the PSB is a pretty deent counter to a fair amount of very strong lists right now. While those lists remain prevalent, I will be playing at least one, but most likely 2.

imweasel wrote:For an all-comers list I think one psych squad is all one should take.

First of all, eldar fubars it, mech fubars it and fearless fubars it.

Having one to deal with situational tactical issues is good enough imho.

The happy medium that I find myself settling on is one squad of 6-8 psykers in a Chimera and another squad of 4-8 (leaning towards 5) psykers on foot.

I personally do not think that Ld9 is reliable enough against lists like Biker Nobs where you absolutely need to get a weaken resolve off or else you're boned. However, like others are noting, dedicating 300 points to a relatively gimmicky (but still powerful) unit core is best avoided. With the one squad of chimera psykers, you've got the mobile, protected Weaken Resolve bomb and the other backup minimal psyker squad on foot is easily hidden behind vehicles/terrain until needed, but with a pie plate at decent strength is still a good firebase for matchups that don't require Weaken Resolve bombs.

DrDaBomB wrote:I've found this "core list" to be incredibly helpful. Thanks for posting it sourclams!

Now I just need to figure out if buying three valkyrie kits is worth it...what alternatives are there to the awesomeness of triple-las troop fast skimmer transports that is the Vendetta? =p

Warms the cockles of my heart. Glad it's of use to you. Does anybody have ideas for whacky Vendetta/Valkyrie conversions? I personally am using 3 FW Lightnings, but since they cost even more than the plastic model that's not a viable option for most folks.

I could see kitbashed Devilfish making a good proxy.

So far I think I'm going to have to suck it up and buy the GW Valks. To convert them to Vendettas I'm planning on putting a TL Lascannon under each wing and then the rid one under the nose (or perhaps split it up and put one half of it on each side of the cockpit where the normal multilaser mounts). It is a pretty unique looking model, so its hard to really come up with something of similar proportions in terms of a conversion.

Using a Devilfish as a base is an interesting idea though, I hadn't quite considered that because its so sleek in comparison to all the IG/Imperium armor that looks much more crude.

Caffran9 wrote:So far I think I'm going to have to suck it up and buy the GW Valks. To convert them to Vendettas I'm planning on putting a TL Lascannon under each wing and then the rid one under the nose (or perhaps split it up and put one half of it on each side of the cockpit where the normal multilaser mounts). It is a pretty unique looking model, so its hard to really come up with something of similar proportions in terms of a conversion.

Using a Devilfish as a base is an interesting idea though, I hadn't quite considered that because its so sleek in comparison to all the IG/Imperium armor that looks much more crude.

I think you will want more than 3 vendetta's.

They are quite good.

As for Vendettas, I am going to buy Valks and just slap some magnets on them Then use plasticard and small plastic tubes to convert up some cheap TL LC.

As for the number of Vends, that is a tough call.

1 for sure, perhaps 2. That depends on if I choose to run a DevilDog or BaneWolf.

I generally build my army lists while trying to remain somewhat accurate from a fluff standpoint and only to have fun, not build the ultimate list to see how how uber-powerful or unbalanced I can make things. I am also not that familiar with a guard army as I just picked up the new codex today and in the past I usually only played against some treadheads under the prior guard codex. I have collected guard in the past but only infantry and more for the painting and modeling to this point.

I understand this is meant to be some over the top kind of list and I presume you would only ever use it in tournaments as it seems extremely counter to the guard background and fluff, especially throwing those large groups of psykers out there as they are meant to be minimal as most of the witches end up on the black ships, not traipsiong around with guard in large numbers if they appear in a guard army at all due to the other issues they bring with them. Based on the background I would have thought that GW would have made it a bit riskier to run Psykers in a traditionally superstitious lot such as the IG, maybe making leadership tests to see how often some freaked out or overly pious guardsman decides to use friendly fire to cleanse the Emperors realm.

This is all obviously just my thoughts on the matter of using somewhat unbalanced anti-fluff lists but i do have a question as I thought the title of this post was interesting in the first place. So the question is that if you wanted to create a "realistic" core of 900-1000 per the guard fluff what would you use as opposed to the list proposed earlier? The idea being to remain competitive while sticking to the fluff. Can it be done? If so, what would such a list look like?

There are definitely other viable lists out there and a friend of mine, Dave from the Wrecking Crew, has come up with a real monster of an army for guard,.

G

Just remember, the Vindi's footprint makes a landraider look like an old school rhino by comparison

( I say this looking at three of them freshly assembled sitting on top of my desk and the three of them take up more much space than the remaining 4 russes and 7 chimeras of my IG Army. )

Seeing them now I cant imagine not brining them in from reservse just because they will eat up my entire deployment zone.

I really think that the size alone of the model balances out the cost as it will just be so damn hard to maneuver these things around a board without taking dangerous terrain tests every turn due to the insane footprint of the model.

imweasel wrote:For an all-comers list I think one psych squad is all one should take.

First of all, eldar fubars it, mech fubars it and fearless fubars it.

Having one to deal with situational tactical issues is good enough imho.

Being able to drop S9 pieplates is not exactly being "fubared"

Vendettas are indeed worth it. The fire power they put out is good and their ability to move quickly to deploy troops on a far objective is something no other unit can do. They are somewhat vulnerable being a huge target with av12. However if your fielding Psyker Battle Squads and Executioners and maybe some Artillery or hydras there is a target saturation and unless your opponent has a large amount of anti tank they have to make choices with their fire.

The squadron of 3 takes up a large amount of space stayingt together and is difficult to maneuver on terrain heavy tables. Seperate Fast attack choices have an advantage of no immobllized = destroyed and they can transport troops to seperate objectives or drop melta vets near seperate land raiders or hard vehicles. Maybe as a compromise going with a squadron of 2 and then 1 by itself would allieviate this as well as give you another transport that can go to a different objective in the d3+2 objective missions as well as not having all your eggs in one basket of a squadron. The squadron does have advantage of concentrated firepower against nob bikers so has some merit.

2 Psykers squads might be the way to go. In some situations you need to get that weaken resolve off and although leadership 9 is good you can fail at a critical time or your opponent can focus fire on your psyker squad.

Green Blow Fly wrote:There are definitely other viable lists out there and a friend of mine, Dave from the Wrecking Crew, has come up with a real monster of an army for guard,.

G

It is so insane and I can't believe no one else has come up with it.

bigtmac68 wrote:Just remember, the Vindi's footprint makes a landraider look like an old school rhino by comparison

There's actually a lot of problems rules-wise with it, and you run into them in just about every game.

For example, the hull is huge, but the actual base is smaller than a Chimera. Since it's on such a tall stand, you can actually pack in a lot of stuff around the base, and although the hull hangs over it, it's "perfectly legal". Unless GW comes out with some other way to define the footprint, there's a lot of space underneath the model that you can utilize.

Green Blow Fly wrote:There are definitely other viable lists out there and a friend of mine, Dave from the Wrecking Crew, has come up with a real monster of an army for guard,.

G

Are you allowed to tell?

By the way, I really like this core. I'll take out the Hydras as I don't play against too many skimmers, but the rest of this is really stinking good.

Also I'll be taking out the Inq+ Mystics as I don't play against deepstrikers.

Actually, thinking about it, the Hydras would be insane vs. a rhino rush army...which is what my BT friend is thinking of doing...

Vladsimpaler wrote:Actually, thinking about it, the Hydras would be insane vs. a rhino rush army...which is what my BT friend is thinking of doing...

Yeah. As far as I can tell, hydras are at least as good as lootas. And lootas are good.

Vendettas are actually better at popping rhinos if you're playing against a pure rhino rush army. By "better", I mean fewer points spent per penetration result. I don't have my laptop on me but I think the Vendetta was something like 90 points per immobilization or worse and the Hydra was 180 points per. (in order to guarantee yourself one immobilization result you have to pay 180 points for Hydras, but only 90 for Vendettas)

The Hydra is great as a gunline vehicle, though, so I hardly think you'll be disappointed fighting rhino rush with a lot of hydras.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Are you allowed to tell?

I think he is at least waiting until he hits a big tourney with it. It will be out after that anyway.

By the way does anyone know when AB updates with new lists? This codex is quite annoying to do by hand...Demons weren't out very long before theirs was done for it, but IIRC Chaos Mortals for WHFB still hasn't been done.

Park the Chimera sideways in front of the Hydras to completely obscure at least 1; due to allocation rules, if you conceal 100% of the facing of one vehicle, then you can claim a 3+ cover save on any one shot that hits the squadron.

Are you not including the hydra's turret when determining line of sight to the facing? It must be hard to completely conceal four long autocannon barrels.

The Hydra turret is on the rear armor "facing". Likewise barrels don't count for shooting *at* vehicles, only from them.

Re: Vendetta Conversions -
My Godhammer Pattern Lascannons on my Land Raiders are magentized. It was easy to just put a magent under the wing and click it on. Note, I tried it at the standard wing hard point and didn't like the look, so I slid open the door and have it pretty much flush against the fuselage. Not planning on having Vendettas transporting anything so loss of access points doesn't bother me (if this is even an issue).

The third TL Lascannon required some work. The Lascannon that comes with the Valk has space above it being taken up by some sensor thingy. I cut that off and fit on a Razorback Lascannon where the sensor was (could only fit the Lascannon barrel, not the little support part underneath it). Fits nicely with a little shaving. I've also magnetized that bit so I can swap it out for the Multi-Laser if I decide to go Valk. I'll try and post some pics later.

I had bought a Land Raider Terminus earlier with the intent of only making a Land Raider, that gave me a source of good Lascannon bits.

Edit - Pics:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/31102-Vendetta%20Conversion.html
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/31103-Magnetized%20Lascannons.html

Edit 2: I suppose I should put this in the Modeling and Conversion forum but you don't need to glue the "roof" of the Valk on, so you can take in off if you want to paint the inside. When you do stick it on, it locks in place nicely. Same for the wings, I didn't glue mine and because they are staying on so well I don't plan too, I think it will make transport a lot easier.

Im personally going to do what ^ he did for two sets (the ones on each side of the cockpit) then I am going to try and replace the front sensor with predator lascannon ends.

I like that conversion though, and you get a vendetta that can shoot backwards hehe.

To the OP:

Nice work! I think you got an strong idea of what is needed to deal with the armies to beat. Here are some comments/queations.

1) The size of the Vendetta concerns me. It is near impossible to hide them or claim a cover save so every anti-tank gun in the opponents army will be able to fire away unhindered. Being only AV12 and in a squadron its survivability is really bad.

2) The footprint of the Vendetta. As I understand it one can not move under the outlines of the skimmer so they will really clutter up the table. Not to mention the difficulties regarding dangerous terrain. If the base is considered the footprint this does obviously not apply (if it is, where can I find the RAW?).

3) Even though I do not expect the Vendettas to live to long I cant think of anything as cost-effective and flexible to take out Oblits at long range.

4) The Hydras are to situational and do not seem counter anything in the armies to beat. I would drop them and call it a 677 pt core.

5) What about countering 4 Battle Wagons + Gazzy?

HYdras counter SMF and Mech Eldar is one of the armies near the top. They also help slap wounds onto units like Nob Bikes to set them up for a WR. They can also demolish light armor (mech SM/Chaos is also very good). They're dirt cheap at 75pts each too, making their utility and output a great asset.

Vendettas help against 4 Battlewagons because their maneuverability can get them around to the weaker side armor. If it is a KP mission then you may have to give up a couple of KPs in the form of your melta vets, but they should average 1 dead tank of any AV per round of melta shooting at 6" range. When 4 Battlewagons + Gaz becaomes more popular I bet you'll start seeing more Vanquishers to help deal with the AV14 front on them.

Keep in mind that this core is designed around dealing with the armies that are well known and established to be at the top of the game right now (I won't disagree that 4 Battlewagons and Ghaghkull is a very strong army... it just isn't popular right now). As armies develop to deal with ho IG change the meta, strong lists against them will become more popular (personally lots of Battlewagons seems like a good way to go against IG to me).

Just read what Caff wrote. He nailed all the salient points.

Kadon
Nice conversion. Wwill be using the same method for the wings but will make the 3rd one nose mounted.

arnaroe
Running the Valkyrie's as seperate Fast attack choices makes them slightly less vulnerable as they have to shoot at seperate targets and immobilized doesn't kill you. This is a disadvantage with kill points and against nob bikers when you want to get wounds on the nobs and not the warboss but in other cases of delivering troops to different objectives or meltaing different Land Raiders and firing on different Rhinos and transports it seems to be better over all. Maybe 2 in a squadron and 1 by itself as a compromise.

Ended up that sourclams core units ended up all in my list. Tried Hydras and they do pretty well against Mech Eldar or for killing Rhino as mentioned. Might cut down to two Hydras though and see how that goes.

The Psyker battle squads should have 8 psykers and and overseer so the template is strength 8 and can insta kill Nobs or Marines.

Might want 2 Psyker battle squads as with one you can fail the leadership 9 psychic test or their chimera can get shaken.

To be honest I look at this new guard codex and I see some decent firepower, but the balance is the poor BS and low toughness (in all regards.) Just because we all love guard and want them to be viable doesn't mean they are going to be.

I look at just this thread and I see things mirroring the last space marine release. People excited that the new army that is their favorite might be good, heck even broken (there are still people I play who think marines are broken LOL) but a few months out of the gate we saw that marines weren't anything to even consider. All it was was a lot of toys, and that is what I think this codex is.

It's unfortunate that in order for this codex to stand any chance vs. demons (and thus have a chance competitively) they still have to ally with DH for the mystics. There is no way guard can beat good demons without that.

Some mathhammer needed:

Hydra vs. AV12 skimmer moving flat out
4 shots
3 hit
0,48 pens

Vendetta vs. AV12 skimmer moving flat out (or a Heavy Weapon Team with 3 lascannons and "Bring it Down!")
3 shots
2,25 hits
1,125 pens (0,56 with save)
(vs. Wave Serpent: 0,74 pens; 0,37 with save)

So yes the Hydra is marginally better mostly because its cheaper. But as soon as the skimmer has no save it becomes much worse then the Vendetta or other high S units. And like you said this template was suppose to take on the most popular GT armies and the Eldar army of choice is Council were not to many can be expected (due to Council costing 500+ pt). Would it not be better to include in a template of this kind some way to deal with the real threat instead of the support?

As for the Hydra vs. other units. Yes, it will slap a wound or two on Nob bikers but those wounded Nobs will either be running off or be the punchbag for the lascannons next turn. A waist of shots if you ask me. And vs. light armour, most units in the IG army can do that anyway so I see no need to add a unit that specializes in it.

I agree that the Vendettas can help against Wagons, both as long range support and as a transport.

And just to be clear, I appreciate what you did and am only trying to assist in fine tuning.

Avariel:
Yes, 2 and 1 might work. Need to try that. Thank!

^Dont forget you also then have to roll 5,6 and then get through the 4+ save.

PanamaG wrote:^Dont forget you also then have to roll 5,6 and then get through the 4+ save.

What are you referring to? In the lascannon example I take that into account (although its a 4+ to penetrate vs. non-Serpents).

Edit: Ah... the Battle Wagons! Yes, but with scout on the Vendetta a side/rear shot is a very realistic possibility.

arnaroe wrote:Some mathhammer needed:

Hydra vs. AV12 skimmer moving flat out
4 shots
3 hit
0,48 pens

Vendetta vs. AV12 skimmer moving flat out (or a Heavy Weapon Team with 3 lascannons and "Bring it Down!")
3 shots
2,25 hits
1,125 pens (0,56 with save)
(vs. Wave Serpent: 0,74 pens; 0,37 with save)

Some more mathhammer is needed. Dakka's table formatting sucks so expect this to be a mess:

Hydra AV11 AV12 AV13 4+ AV11 4+ AV12 4+ AV13
Glance 0.5 0.5 0.5
Penetrate 1 0.5 0
Immo or Dest: 0.583333333 0.333333333 0.083333333 0.583333333 0.333333333 0.083333333
Pts/Result 128.5714 225.0000 900.0000 128.5714 225.0000 900.0000

Vendetta

Glance 0.5 0.5 0.5
Penetrate 2 1 1
Immo or Dest: 1.083333333 0.583333333 0.583333333 0.541666667 0.291666667 0.291666667
Pts/Result 120.0000 222.8571 222.8571 240.0000 445.7143 445.7143


Let me summarize: Against AV11 and 12, Hydras and Vendettas are almost identical (although the Vendetta is between 3 and 8 points cheaper) for immobilizing or destroying the vehicle. This is "points per immobilization+", or how many points you need to spend to statistically guarantee yourself to stop the transport. Vendettas are much better against AV13 and 14, obviously.

Against SMF, however, you need to spend between 128 and 220 points more on Vendettas to stop AV11 and 12 "moving fast".

So... to really stop Mech Eldar from dumping Fire Dragons into your heavy tanks, you really do need the hydras, because nothing else is going to do it in the one turn you have before your Russes die.

So yes the Hydra is marginally better mostly because its cheaper

Its effectiveness against SMF isn't marginal, it's in the realm of 200 points.

And vs. light armour, most units in the IG army can do that anyway so I see no need to add a unit that specializes in it.

I'd be very careful with that assumption. You need multiple line squads or a HWS with autocannons to put out the firepower that a Hydra can, and the options stack up to be less effective, more expensive, and/or more fragile than a Hydra.

And just to be clear, I appreciate what you did and am only trying to assist in fine tuning.

Understood.

Yes, Hydras are better v.s. SMF but in the scenario you are trying to counter you seem to forget that you still have at least 9 twin-linked lascannon to deal with the threat. Adding another 225 pt to tackle that specific situation seems a waist to me since you could spend those points on units that are good v.s. said skimmers AND oblits/bikers. So instead of taking the Hydras two more Vendettas could be fielded (or anything that has 24"+ S8+ AP2 or better) giving you enough fire power to deal with a a skimmer or two moving fast AND be much more efficient dealing with the other armies. Besides, how many Tanks can a Council army really field? Id say max 4 and not all of them are going to be filled with Fire Dragons.

I'd be very careful with that assumption. You need multiple line squads or a HWS with autocannons to put out the firepower that a Hydra can, and the options stack up to be less effective, more expensive, and/or more fragile than a Hydra.

And multiple Chimeras with multi-lasers, most Leman Russ variants and of course the Vendettas. As far as I know all these units are going to be in the IG army to beat. But beside that how many competitive armies are going to be fielding AV10-11 en mass? Daemons - none; Lash - maybe a Rhino or two; Eldar Bikers - none (don't see many War Walkers or Vypers around); Nob Bikers - maybe some trucks or tracks.