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Over the summer, I plan to start up a CSM army, and until it's up to full strength I'll be using 'Traitor' Guard as fillers, but anyway, what are some things I should know about Chaos before I go in to them? I already have some models lined up(Abaddon, Typhus, and some Khorne Berzerkers)

But like, what sort of units should I choose? should I get a chaos landraider or an obliterator? questions like that.

descend your chaotic wisdom upon me...
and blood for the blood god

Chaos does whatever you want an MEQ list to do. What fluff do you like, what Gods do you think you'd serve? If you don't care about fluff (fzorgle, lololol) what play style do you enjoy?

Khorne: Reckless or finesse? CSM with MoK and meltaguns can stand and fire, or melee like beasts or you can rush everything at the enemy and hope for a bloody win.
Tzeentch: Most expensive, and probably requires the most experience. Almost purely shooty, but 5+ invuls for your melee Chosen is great. They are very unforgiving, so I wouldn't run pure Tzeentchian as your first go.
Slaaneshi: Noise Marines (per squad) are either purely shooty, or a melee rush. You can give melee units Sonic Blasters to blur that line, but generally melee units take a decked out Champ and shooty units instead take a Blastmaster. Lightning Claw Terminators striking first is wonderful, BTW.
Nurgle: 2 words: Plague Marines. Ask anyone who plays against them. Short of anti-tank rounds, nothing brings them down. I play Nurgle, I love Nurgle. Don't Icon your CSM, just take Plague Marines. Plague Marines tend to be the most comfortable in rapid fire range, in a slug fest with the enemy (which they'll win). Nurgle armies tend to be as expensive as Tzeentchian, but very forgiving.

Dark Hound pretty much summed it up with troops choices.

As for Elites;
Chosen CAN be decent, give them a mark to compliment whatever role they are playing, melta guns are almost always worth it, give them a rhino or infiltrate. You could outflank with them if you are in the mood. They aren't the best choice IMO

Good ol' Termies, used for the same things as their loyalist counterparts and then some. Outfit them all for melee with mark of Khorne or Slaanesh and put them in a Landraider, or take three with a heavy flamer and all combi-weapons, deep strike them off of an icon close to a unit in cover and laugh when you see your opponents face.

Can't say much about Possessed, other than the random powers seems to handicap them quite a bit. Could be fun, could screw you over as they are rather expensive.

Chaos Dreadnoughts, same problem as Possessed but a bit easier to solve, the best way to use them would probably be give them two CC weapons and keep them close to something with AV 11 or more in case they lose it and start shooting, they attract a lot of fire so plan for it.

Well that's all I have time for now. Hope it helped and good luck

Sgt. Salt wrote:
Chosen CAN be decent...

Chosen ARE decent. Five meltas in a ten man squad in an outflanking, possessed rhino? Yes please.

Asmodeus wrote:

Sgt. Salt wrote:
Chosen CAN be decent...

Chosen ARE decent. Five meltas in a ten man squad in an outflanking, possessed rhino? Yes please.

Giving the opponent an extra-special-MEQ squad to focus on: no please.

Well, they CAN be decent depeding on the synergy of your army. They have so many options, this is easy to screw up, so saying "can" becomes relevant.

Since Possessed came up I'm going to go into a frothy rant. I like Possessed. They are good shock troops. Actually, I was going to rant, but: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/231940.page. That sums it up.

Dreads I have a problem with, because they ACTUALLY kill your own units. This means they are just going to be run as cheap suicide units so the enemy has to focus fire off of your tanks (unless you roll 2 ones, then he never gets to their lines).

Terminators are Terminators. They kill stuff good, and do... stuff.

CSM can put together multiple army builds that are all competitive. My suggestion to you is to pick a theme and stick with it. If you want a CC beast army, then take Khorne berzerkers in LR backed up by something of your choosing. If you want shooty madness, then take noise marines and defilers. If you want durability and offensive firepower at the same time, take plague marines and 9 obliterators. The possibilities go on and on. You might want to read the CSM tactics here on DAKKA. I disagree with some of its points, but it is a good starting point.

I like dreads... I keep them in them in resever, and when they come out, you have a chance to keep them away from your own troops.

But yes, killing your own guys sucks.

I play khorne / IW theme mainly, so i have amix - either no mark or Khorne is my only constraint

Bezerkers are nutty things. you dont have to put them in LR, just rhinos and havoc launchers at 50 points are fine. Rush forwards, pop smoke, laugh s next turn you have a 14" threat range from any one of 3 hatches. WS5 means most ICs are hitting you on 4s, which is always good, and your precious S9 Pfist (fab for landraiders ) hits things on 3s to make the most of the one less attack. I5 also means you can kill a lot before they get to swing....4A each on the charge, nice

Oblits - lovely creatures that can move and put out which ever dakka best suits. too expensive to drop in close to a unit, however at range they can move about, drop lascannos, multimetas or PLASMA CANNONS , have 2W and a 2A powerfist. i normally use 2x2 just beause.

I used to love dreads - blood rage got you double the attacks if you were able to charge that turn, so they dropped that and made it so you shoot the nearest unit ALL the time. grrr. way to make a unit less useful. I;'m not going to buy 3 more FW dreads (worldeater pattern FTW!) with dual CCW just to make them "ok"

Terminators - keep em cheap - they are 30 points for 2+/5++, power weapon and 2A each. dont get seduced by the number of options - autocannon and combi plasma if you want to spam high stregth death for a turn (light AV and troops) or meltas and a flamer for close in. Called termicide units basic units of 3, with a powerfist and heavy flamer plus 2 meltas is laughably cheap.

Possessed - i just hate the randomness. They are just generally outclassed by cult marines.

lastly - your humble CSM on-cult. well, icons dont make them fearless, you lose ALL the ebenfits if the icon guy dies, etc. I just hate them. Yes you can do gunline Khorne (2A basic plus MoK gives 4A on charge, and you can take meltas etc) but it just lacks any flavour for me.


Tzeentch - while AP3 bolters that alwqays fire 24" sounds good, they cost a lot, die just as quick to massed fire and are hellishly expensive. I have some, and use them in units of 20 in apoc games. they attracts all the AT fire as noone wants them shredding entire units per turn!

i'd advise putting in at least one squad of thousand sons in a 2k army, the way their bolters rip through marines, just keep them out of combat if you can. obliterators are good because they can take out pretty much everything

CSM are great.

I'm going to have some people coming at me with disagreements because I'm going to say some stuff that isn't part of the gestalt.

You can be completely on foot...

lash prince
lash prince

5x PM 2x PG
5x PM 2x PG
5x PM 2x PG
5x PM 2x PG

2x oblits
2x oblits
2x oblits

You can (and should be) completely mech

lash sorc
lash sorc

5x chosen 5x melta rhino
5x chosen 5x melta rhino

10x csm 2x melta rhino
10x csm 2x melta rhino
10x csm 2x melta rhino

5x havocs 4x PG rhino
5x havocs 4x PG rhino
predator ACHB


And then you can have fun (and ruin people while doing it)

kharn

3x terms 3x combi melta land raider

3x terms 3x combi-melta land raider

10x berzerkers PF (go in LR deep strike the termies)

10x berzerkers PF (go in LR deep strike the termies)

10x berzerkers PF rhino

predator ACHB



Those are all really fun and really good armies. I suggest running the middle one if you want to win against everyone. The top one was probably the best of the best a little while ago. But everyone going mechanized and people taking executioners and spamming plasma hurts it (victim of its own goodness) Lots of people are playing with khorne lists and doing really well. I'm not sure what they are using but that was my rough draft of what to try.

Lots of different ways to play...

Shep wrote:CSM are great.

I'm going to have some people coming at me with disagreements because I'm going to say some stuff that isn't part of the gestalt.

You can be completely on foot...

lash prince
lash prince

5x PM 2x PG
5x PM 2x PG
5x PM 2x PG
5x PM 2x PG

2x oblits
2x oblits
2x oblits

You can (and should be) completely mech

lash sorc
lash sorc

5x chosen 5x melta rhino
5x chosen 5x melta rhino

10x csm 2x melta rhino
10x csm 2x melta rhino
10x csm 2x melta rhino

5x havocs 4x PG rhino
5x havocs 4x PG rhino
predator ACHB


And then you can have fun (and ruin people while doing it)

kharn

3x terms 3x combi melta land raider

3x terms 3x combi-melta land raider

10x berzerkers PF (go in LR deep strike the termies)

10x berzerkers PF (go in LR deep strike the termies)

10x berzerkers PF rhino

predator ACHB



Those are all really fun and really good armies. I suggest running the middle one if you want to win against everyone. The top one was probably the best of the best a little while ago. But everyone going mechanized and people taking executioners and spamming plasma hurts it (victim of its own goodness) Lots of people are playing with khorne lists and doing really well. I'm not sure what they are using but that was my rough draft of what to try.

Lots of different ways to play...

Those are some pretty cool army lists. Simple, straightforward, and effective. I just began making a truescale force of marine and I've just decided to make them chaos (mid-heresy sons of horus, maybe). I might actually have to use one of these lists. Picking it is going to be difficult as they all seem good and awesome.

Anyway, to the main point of the forum. Don't split your purpose. If you wanna be ranged, go ranged. If you wanna be close combat, go close combat. Don't try and do both because then you'll fail at both. I already had that problem with my previous chaos army. Pick an army list that has been laid out for you (above) and you'll be all set. You're opponents might not be happy for you though

I was kinda wanting to go for a CC army, with a few heavy weps, some oblits, and Rhinos for transports till I get some LR's.

Like, maybe Typhus or Abaddon(but only in " I'm a big boy now" matches like 'Ard Boyz) and Kharn perhaps, some Termies, Khorne zerkers of course, some plague/noise marines, and standard CSM's maybe. and as pre-mentioned, of course some Oblits. I'll be buying the dex as soon as my FLGS gives me my in-store credit from some 'crons I sold (which is now adding up to approx. $27-28, so I know I can get it)

any more tips for primarily CC? not that I want to a lot of range, but I'd like to have some safe-distanced tank killing weps aside from the oblits

CC = Khorne Berzerkers-based List. You don't want to be caught trying to smash heads with Orks and not bring the best of the best that Chaos has to offer. If you go shooty then you can thin out the horde before you get into CC, but if your objective is to beat in their face then you need to bring the best face smashing unit you have Berzerkers! They have their weaknesses, such as winning the assault and being left high and dry as a hail of plasma fire rains down from the sky and ruins your day, but such is the way of Khorne right? Blood for the Blood God!

any way to balance that out with a little ranged support, without losing the CC power? and on the plus side, not everyone has Plasma, unless they're Tau or the new IG vehicles.

so wouldn't the point be to have more squads than the opponent and/or take out any threatening heavy/special wep?

and what should go for HQ's? I'm pretty sure I'll want Kharn, but not sure yet.. More than likely take Typhus, but still not sure.. and I haven't read up much on Daemon Princes, so could someone give me the down-low on best CC HQ's (for the price, otherwise everyone would agree on Abaddon more than likely lol)

Kharn and Abaddon are the best CC Special Characters. For non-special character Daemon Princes are great. Other are all marginal at best. Abaddon is really expensive at 1750 in my opinion. Abaddon and DPs have Eternal Warrior which is nearly essential of IC CC. Kharn works too, but is susceptible to Insta-Death.

I will comment more in a bit..

As far as tactics against fire spam and heavy weapons, the goal is to stay in the vehicle (land raider or rhino) until you can get the assault (so move forward, smoke if possible or cover). Once you can be in position to get the assauly, you want to assault them and not the other way around, then get out and assault. You want to pick your assaults preferably in a way where you win the assault in a way that keeps you in the assault during their turn, but then in their assault phase you ultimately crush them and consilidate, this keeps your zerkers protected from enemy fire.

Unfortunately, against weaker assault armies this is hard to do, since you roll over them too easy. In this case you what to try to assault from near cover areas, so consolidation can bring you back into cover.

Sometimes volume of fire just widdles you down and not much you can do, but thats the cost of being choppy.

In Shep's Khorne list he has a couple suicide term squads to help draw fire, so that can help mid game. In early game you want to use the Land Raiders to block for you. Against melta heavy lists you end up eating it and might lose, but such is life and you can't win them all.. Have fun in the assaults and hope you win the assault but win by just enough to stay in the the assault.

One option against short range melta would be stay back a little and pop their transports then rush in when they are on foot and smash them.

I am basically rambling here, but with the point costs of Chaos being as high as they are its really hard to be both shooty and choppy and if you try you usually end up having not enough of either.

I am still a novice, but I have played against Shep and the others in SPrue Posse a few times now and they have taught me a lessen or too about running to thin or trying to be non-specialized, and usually when I do that I just end up short.

If you like CC with shooty elements, use Predators in your HS slots: they have more firepower/point than other choices.

Also, rhinos are so cheap and effective that there's no reason not to take one for every squad that can have one.

In my khorne list those suicide termies, the predator, and the lascannons on the land raiders have a very important job.

Mech armies tend to absolutely ruin CC armies. You get out, you charge their transport, their transport dies, the cargo doesn't, then they shoot you dead. Your 275 point unit scores 35 points then dies.

You need to do your best to open up as many transports as possible before your zerkers get there.

Willy's suggestion on predators is spot on.

Here's a rough list(and I mean rough) for 750 for a 3v3 this Monday:

HQ:
-Typhus(225)

Troops:
-4x Berzerkers, Skull Champion(120)
-5x Berzerkers, Skull Champion(141)

-Traitor Guard: Veterans w/ LC(90)

Heavy Support:
-5x Havocs, ML (95)
-1x Obliterator w/ LC(75)

4 pts left over, and this is just a shnitz'n'giggles list, but out of curiosity, what do you guys think? I could totally work the other way around and use Traitor Guard to start with and a full Khorne Berzerker squad in a Rhino(or in this case, a chimera-counts-as-rhino) but I don't think that would do much help

Wait, do you have the updated codex? We can't take traitor guard, Oblits have no upgrades, and this list is going to get stomped in general. Typhus is WAAAY too big of a point sink at this level. He's a 1/3 of your army in 4 wounds. Take something smaller, increase the size of the Berserker squads and get them Rhinos. Also, get your heavy support sorted out. Havocs should either fill out their heavy weapons and drop the Oblit, or (the better idea) drop the Havocs and get another Oblit.

I have the 5th ed point costs, but not the actual codex yet. And this match is just a friendly one and I'm sure they'll be ok with using traitor guard.

And those are all the csm models I have, aside from Abaddon, who would've been even more of a point sink. I could do a whole bunch of 'counts-as' but I'd like to use the true-and-blue(well, red) chaos marines

ifyouseekamy wrote:I have the 5th ed point costs, but not the actual codex yet. And this match is just a friendly one and I'm sure they'll be ok with using traitor guard.

And those are all the csm models I have, aside from Abaddon, who would've been even more of a point sink. I could do a whole bunch of 'counts-as' but I'd like to use the true-and-blue(well, red) chaos marines

While your original post is fine... asking for help with a list when you don't have, and are not playing by the rules that the rest of us have is pretty useless.

I personally consider the following to be units I would EVER use in a normal (meaning semi-competitive) game:

HQ
Daemon Prince
Chaos Sorcerer

Elite
Chaos Terminators
Chosen

Troops
CSM
Berzerkers
Plague Marines

Heavy
Obliterators
Land Raider
Havocs (but kitted out in a more melee fashion, not as a ranged, heavy squad)

The main thing you want is plenty of anti-tank (which will always do something to what you're hitting) and enough anti-horde (which only does stuff vs. hordes, but it is very good for that). You also want to watch your points as Chaos can waste a lot of points if they aren't careful. Keep your model count a little on the high vs. the upgrade side and you'll have a much better chance of winning in general. Make sure everything has a role and after some playing you'll find what roles are more important to fill.

If you are putting together an Undivided army, here's some food for thought. GW has a history of putting together crap boxed armies with bunk models that suck in game and don't synergize. BUT, they've actually, finally put together a good boxed army for chaos this time. The "Chaos Space Marine Renegade Strike Force contains a complete 1500 point Chaos Space Marine army and provides a 26% saving over buying the contents individually."

This box contains:
A Chaos Space Marine Lord,
a Chaos Space Marine Terminator Squad,
two 10 man Chaos Space Marine Squads,
2 Chaos Space Marine Rhinos,
a Chaos Space Marine Landraider,
a Chaos Space Marine Vindicator,
a Defiler.

One of these boxes is good, but two of them is Amazing and will give you a solid 2000+ point army with many different options. defilers and vindicators are great HS choices, but they don't work well alone, but 2 defilers or 2 vindicators are great. You could actually take all the heavy bolters out of the regular and make a havoc squad.

Only thing is, cult marines are not included, so if that's going to be you route, you may want to only get one to form the "core" of your army. Heck, I have a 5000 point chaos army, and !'m thinking about getting one (or 2)

I will definitely keep that box set in mind! I'll be able to get that within my first two paychecks

and @willydstyle, I apologize for my ignorance, yes I know I should be playing as everyone else does, and I would never dare try it in a tournament setting, but in a friendly battle and how I know the people I'm playing with, they're ok with it, as long as I follow all other allied rules(troops only, etc.) but I guess I'll put a delay on play-testing chaos till I get said box-set, to make it fair for everyone.

My Chaos foe uses a list based around this:

Lash Prince
3x 8 'zerkers in rhinos

Armour (choice of 3 predators, 2 dreads, defiler)
Obliterators (up to 9, but usually 3x1 or 2x2)

Options: drop a 'zerker unit for Plague Marines
Sneak in a terminator squad

At 1500pts, I struggle with it :(

Shep wrote:CSM are great.

I'm going to have some people coming at me with disagreements because I'm going to say some stuff that isn't part of the gestalt.

You can be completely on foot...

lash prince
lash prince

5x PM 2x PG
5x PM 2x PG
5x PM 2x PG
5x PM 2x PG

2x oblits
2x oblits
2x oblits

Ugh. I hate this list. This is the "I'm 14 and they said this one was the best on the forum" list.

Please, please, please do not use it. I'm not a fluff nazi (because the fluff behind 2 slaanesh princes leading plague marines is impossible) or anything but don't take a cookie-cutter army like this. Lash is a very useful power but I'd rather not take advantage of it than do double lash princes with plague marines and oblits. Ew.

Man, I find it so funny that somehow, despite having a player base that has an average age of over two decades on the average pokemon player that Warhammer 40k players are still 5 or so years behind them on understanding metagame and net-listing.

If you don't have fun playing high powered tournament armies, no one requires you to play them or to even think about them. Personally, I hate playing weak armies. If I am smashing someones face in by turn two at a tournament I have so much trouble getting any enjoyment out of the game. That being said, I enjoy sitting around with my friends at the FLGS playing with whatever we remembered to bring that week, but there is no point in discussing anything about unit effectiveness then.

If you like casual play, you shouldn't care if you built the best or worst army in the world. If you have fun playing it with your friends, that is all that matters. If you are actually trying to discuss whether a unit is points efficient or not, or whether certain aspects of army composition strengthen or weaken the army, then you are talking about competitive play, where frankly fluff and all that don't enter into it.

Seriously, if the 14 year old kids I judged pokemon tournies for could understand the difference between casual decks and competitive decks, why the hell can't the grown men and women on this forum? Grow up and learn to hold your tongue about your fluff problems and your dislike of high power lists. It's better to be thought a fool and be silent then speak and remove all doubt.

ifyouseekamy wrote:I will definitely keep that box set in mind! I'll be able to get that within my first two paychecks

and @willydstyle, I apologize for my ignorance, yes I know I should be playing as everyone else does, and I would never dare try it in a tournament setting, but in a friendly battle and how I know the people I'm playing with, they're ok with it, as long as I follow all other allied rules(troops only, etc.) but I guess I'll put a delay on play-testing chaos till I get said box-set, to make it fair for everyone.

It's not that you have to play the way everyone else does, you should play however you want. I was just trying to say that you weren't going to get much out of asking for advice if we're not on the same page as you, so to speak.