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Ahoy thar!

Now my orks are nearing completion, Im starting to think about the beginnings of a new army.

My first choice is pure Thousand Sons, but Ive heard a lot of stuff about pure tzeentch builds being a bit of a no-no in 5th edition. Were I to do it, Id be limiting myself to whats inline with fluff. Im not by nature an incredibly competitive gamer, winning every time is not my priority, but by the same token, I dont wish to be using an army that is basically useless on the field. So whats the score. Is it possible to field a half decent 'pure' Thousand Sons army? Or would I be better off with my second option of traitor guard? (although after orks I baulk at the thought of painting another horde army)

any advice is appreciated

Thousand sons are a very unique army, against certain armies they excel, against other armies.... notsomuch.

Against Eldar, SM, CSM, Necrons, Tau, and Orks that take lots of 'eavy armor they excel.

Against guardsmen and other huge horde armies... notsomuch.

One of their major weaknesses is their inability to field meltas on anything but rhinos, this is somewhat reduced by the fact that you have like 10 psykers on the field, all shooting assault 1 railguns out the tops of your rhinos.

They don't need cover, as they all have 4+ invuln saves, which is awesome.
They are slow and purposeful though, which essentially means they're always in cover whether you like or not... not so awesome.
They can move and fire their bolters though... which is awesome.
However, it's still only 9 BS4 bolter shots.... not so awesome.

Furthermore, they are the worst unit in the codex as far as CC goes, they have bolters and nothing else, no bolt pistols, no CCWs, not even grenades, when combined with SNP that means they are essentially initiative 1. THey are also fearless, which is a bad thing in CC when you lose by 3 and have to take 3 more armor saves.

Canonness Rory wrote:Thousand sons are a very unique army, against certain armies they excel, against other armies.... notsomuch.

Against Eldar, SM, CSM, Necrons, Tau, and Orks that take lots of 'eavy armor they excel.

Against guardsmen and other huge horde armies... notsomuch.

One of their major weaknesses is their inability to field meltas on anything but rhinos, this is somewhat reduced by the fact that you have like 10 psykers on the field, all shooting assault 1 railguns out the tops of your rhinos.

They don't need cover, as they all have 4+ invuln saves, which is awesome.
They are slow and purposeful though, which essentially means they're always in cover whether you like or not... not so awesome.
They can move and fire their bolters though... which is awesome.
However, it's still only 9 BS4 bolter shots.... not so awesome.

Furthermore, they are the worst unit in the codex as far as CC goes, they have bolters and nothing else, no bolt pistols, no CCWs, not even grenades, when combined with SNP that means they are essentially initiative 1. THey are also fearless, which is a bad thing in CC when you lose by 3 and have to take 3 more armor saves.

QFT
this is why you take dreadnoughts, defilers and chaos spawn to fill in your CC role

so basically, theyre shooty, slow & fragile in combat?

by move & fire their bolters, you mean they can rapid fire after moving? I seem to remember them having some kind of special ammo too... I might be thinking of 4th edition though.

They have inferno bolts, which give their bolters AP3.

They also have the slow and purposeful special rule, which means they can move, and then fire their bolters from 24" inches away, not just rapid-fire.

ah, now I see why theyd be good against MEQ. Perhaps a thousand sons army isnt a bad idea after all, with some purely CC dreadnoughts perhaps.

1k sons are certainly the odd man out in the 4 cult troops choices. They are better at one thing than the rest defensively speaking...

If you want to kill swathes of light infantry models in shooting and CC, then there is only the noise marines

If you want to dominate CC with no shooting, against a good spread of opponents then the berserkers are the answer

If you want excellent survivability against small arms fire and traditional close combat attacks go for plague marines

If you want survivability against High strength/ignore armor save close combat opponents, then taking a 1k sons unit with warptime is the answer.


Defensively speaking, their invulnerable save trumps 3+ armor/FNP against power weapons, and against power weapon attacks with strength values higher than 6, they blow plague marines away in terms of survivability.

offensively speaking, they are paying a premium of points for AP3 shooting. Games development has costed certain units out of most competitive lists thanks to their potentially deadly (to certain units in certain places) firepower. Vespid and stormtroopers are other victims of this premium. i respect their decision to upcost these units to protect space marine players from potentially game swinging events, but unfortunately its more of a protection to new and unskilled players, veteran players would recognize the potential an ap3 unit would have, and would hug cover accordingly.

I am a veteran player and I did just lose 3 crisis suits to a unit of storm troopers debarking from a flat-out valkyrie in a recent planetstrike game. So, despite what people may try to say, ap3 multi-shot weaponry needs to be valued and respected. I think it is over-valued in the current metagame, but that could quite possibly change with a couple new codexes packing some significant transport hate. (I'm looking at you nids)

I like where you are going with this. 3-4 1K squad (9-man of course) in rhino's with 3 CC, heavy flamer, xtra armor dreads as your core. The dreads can help kick the enemy out of assault with your troops. Now you need some long range anti-tank from the heavy slots, an HQ and you are all set.

yes indeed. If I take a lot of 1k sons squads as my core, either dreads or terminators as a bit of an assault punch, depending on how lavish Im feeling with my points, sorceror lord as HQ & possibly some tanks as anti armour. Should be reasonably easy to keep such things fluffy.

Is it worth taking Daemons? I do like the idea of Daemons, but since the advent of the generic daemons business Im not sure if theres much point.

Greater Deamon yes as you can use him to get you out of CC by taking over your unit champion

I was in a tourney last week and a guy ran all TS squads with rhinos, CC dread, greater deamon

intriguing idea. I was considering the ultraforge Vrok as a Lord of Change.

somecallmeJack wrote:ah, now I see why theyd be good against MEQ. Perhaps a thousand sons army isnt a bad idea after all, with some purely CC dreadnoughts perhaps.

Not so fast there. They really aren't that good against MEQs, most MEQs aren't just going to take a round of AP3 bolter fire to the face and will plan accordingly as they move. If you catch them in the open to some super deadly AP3, they are going to go to ground and take a cover save anyway (still a terrible save, but they are going to do it).

DarthDiggler wrote:I like where you are going with this. 3-4 1K squad (9-man of course) in rhino's with 3 CC, heavy flamer, xtra armor dreads as your core. The dreads can help kick the enemy out of assault with your troops. Now you need some long range anti-tank from the heavy slots, an HQ and you are all set.

I take it you don't play CSM, it's all right though. But I have to tell you about CSM dreads. At the beginning of every turn they aren't in CC you roll a d6. On a 1, it turns and fires all it's weapons twice at the nearest unit (Can be your units). Well that's not so bad right? The Dread just flames some rhinos or another dread, can't even hurt it! That's where you might miss the drawback. You roll a one with these guys sitting in the middle of the field and they sit there, you roll a one only a movement and assault phase outside of CC they sit there and shoot instead of get into protective CC positions. Now if you roll a 6 the CSM dread moves it's full movement to the nearest visible enemy unit, then fleet runs towards that unit. This can be ok late game, you might get into protective CC with an enemy unit faster. But then you don't get your heavy flamer template or your rapid fire bolter shot from the other arm. Early game this means the CSM dread charges blindly out from behind cover to take a lascannon to the face.

I think if your going to do a 1ksons list you need to focus on the sorcerers and not on the actual 1ksons. Here is an example of what I'm talking about.

Ahriman 250
DP, MoT, Wings, Warptime, Wind of Chaos 205

4x Tsons + Sorc w/ BoT in Rhino w/ Combi-Melta 222
4x Tsons + Sorc w/ BoT in Rhino w/ Combi-Melta 222
4x Tsons + Sorc w/ BoT in Rhino w/ Combi-Melta 222
4x Tsons + Sorc w/ BoT in Rhino 212
4x Tsons + Sorc w/ BoT in Rhino 212

2x Oblits 150
2x Oblits 150
2x Oblits 150

Feel free to change the psychic power to Gift of Chaos or Wind of Chaos on any of those sorcerers, but be prepared to spare up points by taking off Combi-Meltas. And when you do that you'll be decreasing your anit-armor two fold by removing a Bolt and a melta weapon. Although I do say... combi-meltas on rhinos are pretty ineffective.

somecallmeJack wrote:yes indeed. If I take a lot of 1k sons squads as my core, either dreads or terminators as a bit of an assault punch, depending on how lavish Im feeling with my points, sorceror lord as HQ & possibly some tanks as anti armour. Should be reasonably easy to keep such things fluffy.

Is it worth taking Daemons? I do like the idea of Daemons, but since the advent of the generic daemons business Im not sure if theres much point.

Sometimes lesser demons are good, but you have to take icons for them to drop down which is their main drawback. Don't take a Sorc Lord with MoT, it is the same cost as a DP.

Battle Brother Loken wrote:Greater Deamon yes as you can use him to get you out of CC by taking over your unit champion

I was in a tourney last week and a guy ran all TS squads with rhinos, CC dread, greater deamon

How did he do that btw? Greater Demons don't count toward your FOC HQ.

I got first in 'ard boys with a mix of thousand sons and plague marines but my thousand sons did exceptionally well.

I put them in a landraider and I'd drive up, get out, rapid fire, winds of chaos if I could get it off and charge. Just watch out for enemy walkers and dedicated combat units. Terminator squads with mark of tzeench are great although I do miss when the terminators were 2 wounds (in the old codex for thousand sons).

So, I usually run demon prince, lord or sorcerer, 2 dreads and a 9 man termiantor squad or 2 9 man terminator squads and a dread, 2 or 3 9 man thousand son squads, 1 in rhino. 2 landraiders for heavy and a defiler for third heave (because I don't have a vindicator).

Typeline,

Two problems with what you are saying. Number one the OP wants a fluffy list that goes along with the background of the 1K. He said he will sacrifice winning for fluff. Your 5 man squads are useless to him. 1K go in 9-man squads the favored number of Tzeentch. Your 3 units of Oblits also are out.

Second you must not get out much to play real competition. I say that because you said I must not play CSM much. I've won the Adepticon Gladiator and Adepticon Team Tourney. I finished in the top 10 overall at the 1st Ard Boyz and last year my team came in 4th place at the 324 person Adepticon Team event this past year with 4 CSM Dreads in the lists!!!!!!! I'm not trying to say I know all and you are useless, but I'm not the one who originally brought up experince with CSM as a qualifier to give someone some advice.

You fail to realize that with two CC arms only a 1 will bother you. 2-5 is fine and a 6 is what you are trying to do anyway. I guess you might not care about 5 Dread attacks on the charge, but a whole lot of MEQ and Ork Nobs really do care about them. For 115pts you have a rock hard CC unit that must be dealt with before it rampages through the lines. Not bad for 115pts, keeps the army in the fluff (which is what the OP wants), is fun to paint, and can win you some games.

I wouldn't go with a Greater Daemon, as Thousand Sons Aspiring Sorcerers are, by default, one of the most expensive "sergeants" in the game, and affect your unit's movement (if they aren't there, you only roll 1d6 or some such nonsense).

thanks for the advice guys, It shall all be taken into consideration.

I was thinking about a pure CC dread, Typeline, Im aware of fire frenzy & all that, but to be honest my only use for dreads in a 1k sons army would be their CC ability. & Oblits are, as DarthDiggler says, not really a typical Thousand Sons unit.

The Dread isn't going to help if you roll a one, and for something filling such a critical roll, that is a problem. Hell, rolling a 6 can be worse, as you assault the wrong thing. Take from me, and I have much experience with this, Chaos Dreads don't work if you need something covered. They are great target saturation though.

A couple things I haven't heard mentioned are Gift spam and CSM fillers, which I'll elaborate on when I get back in about 5 hours.

Playing vs eldar with a farseer must be fun with thousand sons..

DarthDiggler wrote:Typeline,

Two problems with what you are saying. Number one the OP wants a fluffy list that goes along with the background of the 1K. He said he will sacrifice winning for fluff. Your 5 man squads are useless to him. 1K go in 9-man squads the favored number of Tzeentch. Your 3 units of Oblits also are out.

Second you must not get out much to play real competition. I say that because you said I must not play CSM much. I've won the Adepticon Gladiator and Adepticon Team Tourney. I finished in the top 10 overall at the 1st Ard Boyz and last year my team came in 4th place at the 324 person Adepticon Team event this past year with 4 CSM Dreads in the lists!!!!!!! I'm not trying to say I know all and you are useless, but I'm not the one who originally brought up experince with CSM as a qualifier to give someone some advice.

You fail to realize that with two CC arms only a 1 will bother you. 2-5 is fine and a 6 is what you are trying to do anyway. I guess you might not care about 5 Dread attacks on the charge, but a whole lot of MEQ and Ork Nobs really do care about them. For 115pts you have a rock hard CC unit that must be dealt with before it rampages through the lines. Not bad for 115pts, keeps the army in the fluff (which is what the OP wants), is fun to paint, and can win you some games.

Skimmed over the fluffy thing.

I didn't bring it up either. When people advocate running CSM Dreads, they usually don't know that you don't control it 1/3 of the time.

Jpr wrote:Playing vs eldar with a farseer must be fun with thousand sons..

Playing vs Eldar w/ farseer is fun for any non-khorne army.

Right, back. Thanks for leaving those two subjects open for me. Here I go!

First up, Gift spam. Something unique to a Tzeentch pure army is the ability to cast Gift of Chaos with enough psykers to make it work, twice. 2 attempts at Gift of Chaos per psyker in this army. It can be a double edged sword in KP missions, but at the same time you might over-run them as their own squads turn in on themselves after becoming Spawn.

Secondly, Thousand Sons are inherently low on model count. To aleviate this, you need fillers, and you need versitility. Chaos Space Marines and Spawn make for good objective holders and counter assault units. CSM are the better choice here, as they provide more bodies to draw away shots (as against normal weapons Thousand Sons are just very expensive CSM), while also being able to add to your shooting power. Lesser Daemons give you suprise counter-charge units, making it impossible for your opponent to avoid them if you play your cards right. Lesser Daemons are harder to use right, especially with standard troops as bad at CC as they are, and while they are cheaper, they don't give you the versitile uses that CSM do.

Now, the CSM present ways to deal with heavy armor, which is also something Thousand Sons lack. Not just in their Melta-weapons, but with a spare Champ. Greater Daemons are amazing, giving an assaulting army something to think about, while giving you a large target to draw fire, and a powerful tank killer if they don't shoot it. At 130 points (including the lost Champion) it is probably the most points effectiant model in the codex, which is great when you are starved for models. In the same vein, I'd prefer getting a DP and keeping him a cheap Gift spammer. Tough, reliable and is able to disrupt infantry with Gift, kill them himself and also adds to your anti-tank.

My Thousand Sons list would look something like this:
DP, MoT, Wings, Gift, 180
Greater Daemon, 100
10 CSM, 2 Meltas, Champ, IoCG, Rhino, 230
10 CSM, 2 Meltas, Champ, IoCG, Rhino, 230
7 Thousand Sons (including Sorc), Gift, Rhino, 263
7 Thousand Sons, Gift, Rhino, 263
Vindicator, 125
Predator, AC, HB, 105
1496

DarthDiggler wrote:Typeline,

Two problems with what you are saying. Number one the OP wants a fluffy list that goes along with the background of the 1K. He said he will sacrifice winning for fluff. Your 5 man squads are useless to him. 1K go in 9-man squads the favored number of Tzeentch. Your 3 units of Oblits also are out.

If you're sticking with the fluff, then everything is out except Thousand Sons, Sorcerers, and MAYBE a Dreadnought or Daemons--but even that is a stretch.

There's no other units in the army.

Being that Thousands sons are sorcerers, you could stretch the fluff to field vehciles, basically they find some old burned out hulks and use their knowledge to animate the hulk with daemons, thus you are restiricted to taking demonic possession on every vehicle, but fluff wise it seems to make sense.

slow, couldnt kill a FW in CC, and expensive.
but they can be used to make a good gunline (something they do very well)

mixing in dreads to help anti-tank will work wonders, the odd defiler also helps, but they are fairly controlled compared to dreads, so allways a safe bet.

as said, spawns make good CC troops, throw them about like points heavy speed bumps

with Tsons you will need a good plan, and an even better deployment to make the most of them.

allthough, they wont out-shoot tau, they can still make a solid fire base that gives people serious problems.

doubled wrote:Being that Thousands sons are sorcerers, you could stretch the fluff to field vehciles, basically they find some old burned out hulks and use their knowledge to animate the hulk with daemons, thus you are restiricted to taking demonic possession on every vehicle, but fluff wise it seems to make sense.

Using that basis, though, everything could be made to fit the fluff.

"Here's a ball of living warp fire (Obliterator) that I made manifest on the physical plane"

sourclams wrote:

doubled wrote:Being that Thousands sons are sorcerers, you could stretch the fluff to field vehciles, basically they find some old burned out hulks and use their knowledge to animate the hulk with daemons, thus you are restiricted to taking demonic possession on every vehicle, but fluff wise it seems to make sense.

Using that basis, though, everything could be made to fit the fluff.

"Here's a ball of living warp fire (Obliterator) that I made manifest on the physical plane"

True, but I am using established fluff and not making something up on my own outa nowhere to shoe horn in a unit. Chaos vehicles can take demonic possession, in which a psyker binds a daemon to a vehicle, making it more a living thing then a hunk of metal. THousand Sons have the best psykers due to their psykers being Tzeetch worshippers, so it fits in well with a TSons theme, especcally a defiler. What you suggested means a rewrite of the entire fluff behind entry, it is like saying, I am going to build an army of lizard men and dragons in 40k using the CHaos codex, where instead of deamons and oblits and defilers, they are dragons, and lizard men using vinalla CSM rules and options.....man would that be a WTF moment at a tourny when you start unpacking your dragon army to play his Tau lol

The best way to supplement thousand sons and still remain "fluffy" is to take Daemons for CC. Oh and dont forget that Tzeetch number is 9.


Daemon Prince of Tzeetch

Sorcerer

Greater Daemon

Troops

3 x 9 manThousand sons with Rhinos w/ Combimelta/ Havoc

3 Squads of Daemons

A useful little trick with Thousand Sons is to place your objective out in the open: you get your invulnerable saves but they don't get cover saves form your ap3.

And as to the fluff argument, the new codex tends to emphasise the mixed warband organisation of the chaos legions. Even if that doesn't extend to the Thousand Sons who were divided between Magnus and Ahriman, surely it isn't a stretch to imagine that the Planet of Sorcerers ran a few recruitment campaigns over 10,000 years? Mention is made of Ahriman abducting potential sorcerer adepts from libraries and such in the chaos codex, for example.

Ok - the troops are very very solid, and great against templates of doom (4+ invuln rocks).

A thousand sons DP is very hardy with a 4+ invuln save, and a great addition to your army. Just dont leave him unsupported.

Also, the ability to take warptime and Wind of chaos on your DP means youre rerolling your 4+ wounds under the template - lots of fun. I tend to keep the sorcerers with Gift of chaos, lots of fun to create spawn spam out of their own models. Prioritise the heavy weapons squads, as they are immediately engaged and cannot turn and shoot the next round.

Enemy Tanks will be your downfall! Avoid or take them out asap!

Open objectives are great - dont forget that with ap3 rapid fire weapons, you control all open spaces!

I dont particularly care about fluff, and given that its changed since the new codex, I dont think it counts anyway (there appears to be an amazing resistance to the fact that Fluff, like rules, changes).

(I realise thats an inflamatory statement, so apologies in advance.)

I like the idea behind 1k sons, but honestly, the fact they are limited just to a firing role (as others said, they are terrible in CC) and the fact that all the other CSM special units pretty much trump them in any way possible is huge... and the lack of anything BUT bolters hurts em, a lot. I like your fluffy idea tho, please post when you have a final list!