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A Thousand Sons-heavy army isn't a very balanced army, but I think they'd do ok against most other armies, especailly in a tourney setting (presuming the usual mass of MEQ opponents) as most opponents won't have much experience against the unusual Thousand Sons units.

You do need to make some fluff decisions, as discussed above - Ahriman, Thousand Sons and Sorcerers are obviously fluffy, and personally I'd be happy with the list being filled out with anythng else clearly Tzeentch (Daemons and anything with Mark of Tzeentch) even though that's really a Tzeentch army rather than specifically Thousand Sons. Taking 'ordinary' Chaos units (and especially any other Marks of Chaos) would make a more balanced and sensible army, but not nearly as fluffy.

The codex isn't as helpful as it could be - e.g. logically any marines already inside Dreads would have been affected by the Rubric, but there's no way to represent that in the army list. :(

thousand sons look great and in certain situations are incredable, but unless you are against another shooting MEQ, they are limited at best. Lack of special weapons options except for a psykic power on the sorcerer means horde, fast assualt and mech will usually wreck you.

I appreciate a pure 'sons army not being a 'sensible' choice, but the only other Chaos power that really appealed to me is Slaanesh, & since the advent of the dreaded Lash everyone & their dog is playing Slaanesh, so 1k sons was the obvious choice.

For me, the 'feel' of an army is more important than having a list that will always be at an advantage. Im prepared to sacrifice constant victory for a list that seems 'right' for 1k sons, although as Clang says, with vehicles & daemons itll be more 'pure tzeentch' than 'pure 1k sons'

somecallmeJack wrote:I appreciate a pure 'sons army not being a 'sensible' choice, but the only other Chaos power that really appealed to me is Slaanesh, & since the advent of the dreaded Lash everyone & their dog is playing Slaanesh, so 1k sons was the obvious choice.

For me, the 'feel' of an army is more important than having a list that will always be at an advantage. Im prepared to sacrifice constant victory for a list that seems 'right' for 1k sons, although as Clang says, with vehicles & daemons itll be more 'pure tzeentch' than 'pure 1k sons'

I'm not trying to be a prick when I say this, but you aren't sacrificing 'constant' victory your sacrificing victory. Unless you play in a very noncompetitive minded environment I don't think you'll be winning much. There will be a lot of melta to foil your vehicles and a lot of assault (simply because the rules make it very good right now). Just think of how some other armies would work against an all Tzeentch list.

With a pessimistic attitude like that, you might as well just quit playing Warhammer 40k altogether.

I think that instead of giving up before even trying, you should work on brainstorming ways to make a hard-hitting Tzeentch or Thousand Sun Legion based army.

If you're going for pure Thousand Suns, I think you want the following:

HQ
1. Sorcerers
2. Ahriman
3. Daemon Princes

Elites
1. Dreadnoughts
2. Possessed

Troops
1. Thousand Suns
- Rhinos w/Havoc Launchers
- Aspiring Sorcerers with either Warptime or Gift of Chaos

Fast Attack
1. Spawn

Heavy Support
1. Land Raiders w/Havoc Launchers
2. Predators
3. Vindicators

Nurglitch wrote:With a pessimistic attitude like that, you might as well just quit playing Warhammer 40k altogether.

I think that instead of giving up before even trying, you should work on brainstorming ways to make a hard-hitting Tzeentch or Thousand Sun Legion based army.

Your right. I need to buck up and at least try to give it a shot. And if it must be fluffy then so be it.

Nurglitch wrote:HQ
1. Sorcerers
2. Ahriman
3. Daemon Princes

Elites
1. Dreadnoughts
2. Possessed

Troops
1. Thousand Suns
- Rhinos w/Havoc Launchers
- Aspiring Sorcerers with either Warptime or Gift of Chaos

Fast Attack
1. Spawn

Heavy Support
1. Land Raiders w/Havoc Launchers
2. Predators
3. Vindicators

Ok for the sake of hard hitting and fluffy lets start this by nixing the idea of running sorcerers. They themselves are fluffy but so are all variety of Tzeentch marked DPs. Also, not to mention that Tzeentch DPs are incredible.

As for Elites, I know arguments have been made both for an against dreads. But against my better judgment I will go with the lesser of two evils and say run possessed. To be fluffy do they need a mark? They already shift and change like the Lord of Change loves to do himself, so is it really necessary to give them an invul save?

Troops: not much here to really change. 8x Tsons +Sorc (9 total) in Rhino with Daemonic Possession (Only way we're getting these or can we drop it?) and Havoc Launcher.

Fast attacks, a squad of spawn might do well. They are largely ignored on the board and can actually do pretty well when they take that long charge into an unsuspecting enemy.

Heavy support, even though I still think the shifting changing Oblits are technically fluffy, let's go with a Possessed land raider that can carry a squad of possessed and maybe a Lascannon Pred with possession while we're at it too. Could go with a Vindi with Possession, but I believe horde will be a slightly bigger problem as many horde armies don't care if they are losing a lot of guys running at you with cover saves.

Gimme one more second and I'll math up a list that meets my general criteria.

HQ:
Ahriman 250
DP, MoT, Wings, Warptime, Wind of Chaos 205

Elites:
9x Possessed 234

Troops:
8x Tsons +Sorc w/ Bolt in Rhino w/ DP & Havoc Launcher 339
8x Tsons +Sorc w/ Bolt in Rhino w/ DP & Havoc Launcher 339

Fast:
2x Chaos Spawn 80

Heavy:
Land Raider, DP 240
Chaos Vindicator, DP 145
Chaos Predator, DP, TL Lascannon, Lascannon Sponsons 165

Ahriman rides with either a Squad of Sorcerers or with the possessed (depending on the opponent). The Land Raider is pretty hard to crack or even halt for that matter, so it should always be pushing at a weak point or at an objective along with the Vindi and the Pred if one of those vehicles is not on some kind of dedicated mission to kill something of the opponents like an opposing vehicle or a particularly large horde of enemies respectively. The DP can either DS to an advantageous point behind enemy lines to assault a vehicle or blast a crowd of guys. The spawn, you don't control, so deploy them to run at something soft. Don't try to take objectives with the possessed merely contest the objective and give the opponent as much trouble as possible with that transport, assault unit and HQ. The Tsons sit back in their transports, shooting the Bolt out of the top hatch, firing the havoc launcher and being a generally hard to crack inexpensive (in terms of this list) transport. Sitting them on objectives would be nice, or picking a crucial turn to drive one out to try and have the squad within reach out and lay down some serious fire on a unit without cover. The opponent probably won't realize that the Tsons can move 12" in their transport, hop out, move w. slow and purp, then fire either 24" or double tap at 12" (did I get that right by the way? I feel like I'm forgetting something and they can't actually do all that).

Actually. Not to rock the boat here (since there seems to be some fluff hate for the Oblits) but what about counts as?

Even if you don't think the ever-shifting stuff is appropriate for a KSons army, all it takes is a little ker-shuffle of your preconceptions.


For instance. Use the great old KSons cult terminator models as your oblits, and mod the weapons out to look arcanish. Anybody recall Blue, Fire, Red Fire, Green Fire, etc of Tzeentch? Sounds an awful lot like a variety of profiles for attacks, right? Gee. I wonder where in the chaos codex we could find a slow and purposeful unit with multiple attack lines (to represent the Warpfire Canon of Tzeentch)? And it would have to have an invulnerable save. Maybe someday, a unit like this will appear in the heavy support section of the chaos codex ...


Alternatively, for something completely different: If you don't mind a modeling challenge, you could do pre-heresy Ksons. Very fluffy, and awesome looking artwork in the Heresy Artbooks. Use Tigerius for whom Ahriman counts-as. For bonus fun, you can add 1 'modern' unit of Ksons. Just use the rules for the Legion of the Damned. When your pre-heresy Ksons get into trouble, suddenly these strange blue and gold marines show up from somewhere else in time and space, and save their ass. Maybe they should learn more about this 'warp' ...

Scrollreader wrote:For instance. Use the great old KSons cult terminator models as your oblits, and mod the weapons out to look arcanish. Anybody recall Blue, Fire, Red Fire, Green Fire, etc of Tzeentch? Sounds an awful lot like a variety of profiles for attacks, right? Gee. I wonder where in the chaos codex we could find a slow and purposeful unit with multiple attack lines (to represent the Warpfire Canon of Tzeentch)? And it would have to have an invulnerable save. Maybe someday, a unit like this will appear in the heavy support section of the chaos codex ...

I'd really love for that to happen, but I think we're just going to chain ourselves as tightly as we can to the CSM codex as we can here.

Although... 9 oblits total is pretty fluffy for someone who loves things in nines.

I'd mark the Possessed if I were you. You'll find them much more effecient with a 4+ invul. Trust me on this, my army is practically built around them.

Typeline:

I have the units ranked because Tzeentch-oriented armies get expensive quickly. Daemon Princes, for example, are premium-quality, but also premium-cost.

Hence I've put the Sorcerer as the #1 slot, as although they can be more expensive, they have more utility in a Thousand Suns army: they can help direct Thousand Suns Marines if they lose their Aspiring Sorcerer, can carry extra psychic powers, and they have good synergy with Possessed.

Possessed, I think, work well in a Thousand Suns army if you model them right. Model them up as Thousand Suns assault troops and you're good. But game-wise, they are Fearless, and so if you have a Sorcerer join them, then he benefits from their Fearless, which means Fearless Sorcerer. Combined, these units provide an assault capability that Thousand Suns unit themselves do not provide. Thousand Suns unit are great at catching and holding charges, but you need other units to hammer what they catch. In addition, because the Possessed themselves lack shooting attacks, a Sorcerer in the unit can benefit from using powers like Wind of Chaos and Bolt of Change (particularly in combination with Warptime). This is also good for Sorcerers of Slaanesh, but that's another subject. In addition, units of Possessed make great Daemon anchors, since they have a very inexpensive Possessed Champion for Greater Daemons to possess, and a Personal Icon to bring Lesser Daemons, Terminators, and Obliterators, although this army is concerned with the former (which I need to add to the army options up there). Incidentally, they already have an Iv5+, but the Iv4+ might make them 50% tougher against the stuff that would otherwise splat them.

Troops-wise, Thousand Suns are Thousand Suns. Taking Daemonic Possession on their Rhino is a good idea because that means they can fire away with their Havoc Launcher almost with impunity: the Twin-Linked nature of the Havoc Launcher almost negates the reduction in BS. That's if you take your anti-tank elsewhere, which you should because a single Combi-Melta and a Bolt of Change are not efficient.

Also, I should have mentioned it, but Lesser Daemons. Oh, Lesser Daemons. These guys do counter-assault and objective holding. If you're lucky, the enemy crashes into the Thousand Suns, bogs down, and then gets counter-charged by summoned Lesser Daemons, Dreadnoughts, Defilers, or whatnot.

Spawn are something interesting that you really need to commit to, and they can actually cover some ground. You also need to take a unit of three Even if they get shot down, they've absorbed firepower that might go elsewhere, and your opponent won't ignore them the second time.

Heavy Support-wise a Possessed Land Raider for the Possessed is really important, both for the delivery, and for long ranged anti-tank. A Vindicator with a Havoc Launcher can do some interesting things, with the Havoc Launcher helping to protect the Vindicator's main gun and giving it some ranged punch. Predators are basically a cheap source of anti-transport firepower. Defilers are, well, Defilers, and work very nicely for starting on a flank and working their way across the board in assaults and attracting firepower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yup: Thousand Suns can get catapulted 12" with their Rhino, hop out 2", and shoot 24". It's the I1 when they charged you have to watch out for (although they can shoot Bolters when they assault).

Let's talk about the Sorc vs. DP debate for just a second.

In the list I wrote up the DP, honestly, is just a sort of icing on the cake add on. He really has no specific function. But I do believe that he would be more efficient in drawing fire away from the Tson rhinos and the Possessed LR in some cases (if he is a closer threat than the LR). But let's talk math.

DP, Wings, MoT, Warptime, Wind 205
Sorc, MoT, Warptime, Wind 185 (180 if you want Bolt instead, but I feel bolt is not as useful with warptime)

You argued that the Sorc can take over for another aspiring sorcerer. But I don't see that being an issue very often. The transport is harder to get at, at the Tsons themselves are pretty tough in general but I suppose the smarter opponents will lay more fire into a Tson squad on an objective than other threats closer to them. We could drop Ahriman and have dual MoT sorcs, and bump down the squad sizes of the Tsons (to make them number 9 with the Sorcs). That way one could kit out the Aspiring sorcs for shooting with Bolt and the HQ sorcs for when the unit gets out of the transport and shoots or has to deal with CC. Does the sorc gain slow and purposeful if he joins the unit? Or does he just move at the lower speed, and if he doesn't fire a bolter can he use psychic shooting attacks that have an assault profile and still assault if the Tsons do?

How do you feel about including the spawn in the list? They should probably be dropped to pay for the IoT for the Possessed.

A Sorcerer of Tzeentch can take over a Thousand Suns' unit if its Aspiring Sorcerer buys it, which is possible considering the presence of things like Telion out there.

Sticking a Chaos Sorcerer in a unit of Thousand Suns is a bad idea, because the unit moves at the rate of the slowest model, which will have Slow and Purposeful so long as a Thousand Sun Marine survives. Moreover, the Sorcerer will have to shoot at the same target. If the Thousand Suns unit assaults, he would have to as well: as an Independent Character he would have to lead the charge! He could shoot because charging, but with the Slow and Purposeful, and careful casualty selection by your opponent, and they aren't getting into combat.

But some important differences between Sorcerers and Daemon Princes go beyond points values: if you want a Warptime/Wind of Chaos combination, you're better off with the Daemon Prince. If you want three psychic powers, like Warptime, Wind of Chaos or Bolt of Change, and Gift of Chaos, and a Personal Icon, then you need a Sorcerer. Bolt is useful if the Sorcerer is with the Possessed as it gives the unit a way of cracking transports before charging the unit inside.

I think, for a Daemon Prince, a combination of Warptime and Gift of Chaos is probably a better idea than Warptime and Wind of Chaos since you want to spend most of your time in combat. Doombolt is actually worth something in combination with Warptime.

Spawn are great if you can afford them, but I think this list would do better with Summoned Daemons, to increase the number of units that can hold objectives.

Scrollreader wrote:Actually. Not to rock the boat here (since there seems to be some fluff hate for the Oblits) but what about counts as?

Bingo. GW really wanted to encourage people to do some conversions and to use their imaginations, and to make the army they want to make, using the rules they are given.

Thats why the door is WIDE open on "counts as" style conversions. I think any chaos army would love obliterators. And I don't see anything wrong with a powerful sorcerer making a deal with a large obliterator cult. "We are only interested in the arcane. You and your 'techno-mongers' may have salvage rights on all techno-arcana, anything that has the touch of the warp belongs to us however."

If you really wanted to stay blue and yellow. then do exactly what has been suggested and do a set of 'counts as' obliterators. the rules are quite simple.

Size - Must be mounted on an equivalent base size, and be roughly the same size.

Consistency - if it has a gun that looks like a lascannon, it needs to be a lascannon, if it has a close combat weapon that looks like a giant fist, it needs to be a power fist.

Something on a 40mm base, that is roughly terminator sized, that has a plethora of weapons (or representations of those weapons)... plenty of places to go for that. And not just obliterators either. You can make anything in the CSM dex 1k son if you had the imagination and energy. I'd love to see what someone's 'counts as' khorne beserkers would be. Headless and defeated space wolf blood claws, reanimated to do the bidding of their nemesis?

Nurglitch wrote:A Sorcerer of Tzeentch can take over a Thousand Suns' unit if its Aspiring Sorcerer buys it, which is possible considering the presence of things like Telion out there.

Sticking a Chaos Sorcerer in a unit of Thousand Suns is a bad idea, because the unit moves at the rate of the slowest model, which will have Slow and Purposeful so long as a Thousand Sun Marine survives. Moreover, the Sorcerer will have to shoot at the same target. If the Thousand Suns unit assaults, he would have to as well: as an Independent Character he would have to lead the charge! He could shoot because charging, but with the Slow and Purposeful, and careful casualty selection by your opponent, and they aren't getting into combat.

But some important differences between Sorcerers and Daemon Princes go beyond points values: if you want a Warptime/Wind of Chaos combination, you're better off with the Daemon Prince. If you want three psychic powers, like Warptime, Wind of Chaos or Bolt of Change, and Gift of Chaos, and a Personal Icon, then you need a Sorcerer. Bolt is useful if the Sorcerer is with the Possessed as it gives the unit a way of cracking transports before charging the unit inside.

I think, for a Daemon Prince, a combination of Warptime and Gift of Chaos is probably a better idea than Warptime and Wind of Chaos since you want to spend most of your time in combat. Doombolt is actually worth something in combination with Warptime.

Spawn are great if you can afford them, but I think this list would do better with Summoned Daemons, to increase the number of units that can hold objectives.

So were you making a point for sorcs before or against them?

I assume we should just stick to Ahriman and the MoT, Wings, Warptime, Wind DP.

Thousand Suns tactical role is filled by the fact they can move and shoot their AP3 bolters. You do not necessarly need a whole army of them but one squad is a great fit, especially in a foot slogging list.

As I have no love for posessed marines, I'd suggest replacing them with Tzeentch terminators. Some advantages of this are

Frees a HS slot by buying the Land Raider as a transport
Gives the Sorceror Lord a great retinue. Him paying 15 pts for Term armor is a HUGE value.
Addresses at least one of this lists weaknesses. You can kit the Terms for assault or grab some combi meltas and chainfists for anti tank.

Downsides are

Lose a dedicated assault unit
Price could be an issue. Tzeentch lists are expensive.

I think this fits the fluff and shores up some weaknesses.

Exactly 9 Oblits would indeed be fluffy, especially if you can convert them to look very Tzeentchy - and gamewise might be quite a sensible choice to shoot at non-MEQ targets.

But do you NEED 9 Oblits?

DarkHound wrote:But do you NEED 9 Oblits?

IN A TZEENTCH LIST YOU DO! HE LIKES NINE GUYZ!!!!!

You can have more than 50% more CSM for every 1kson you buy (and nearly 5 for the cheapest sorceror). The extra points you save can buy you versatile equipment such powerfists, icons, meltaguns and so on. More guys = more wounds on your side and more guys = more hits and wounds against enemies.

AP5 kills Nids, guard, orks, daemons, eldar, etc. just as well as AP3. Except the AP3 bolters cost more, dont matter much when shooting into cover, and still cant wound big monsters any better.

So heres a quick rundown:

+No armour saves for MEQs
+Can move and shoot 24" (1 shot each...yay?)
+ 4+ invul

-1 less CC attack
-Slow movement
-No Special Weapons
-Cost a ton more, meaning far less units
-Shooting into cover barely does anything
-Shooting units with 5+ saves is useless


No, theyre not worth it when their advantages can be negated by smart tactical play, or by simply bringing an army with 5+ saves.

Now if they had AP2 bolters...that would be slightly different against MEQs, but still useless against hordes for the most part.

Night Lords wrote:You can have more than 50% more CSM for every 1kson you buy (and nearly 5 for the cheapest sorceror). The extra points you save can buy you versatile equipment such powerfists, icons, meltaguns and so on. More guys = more wounds on your side and more guys = more hits and wounds against enemies.

AP5 kills Nids, guard, orks, daemons, eldar, etc. just as well as AP3. Except the AP3 bolters cost more, dont matter much when shooting into cover, and still cant wound big monsters any better.

So heres a quick rundown:

+No armour saves for MEQs
+Can move and shoot 24" (1 shot each...yay?)
+ 4+ invul

-1 less CC attack
-Slow movement
-No Special Weapons
-Cost a ton more, meaning far less units
-Shooting into cover barely does anything
-Shooting units with 5+ saves is useless


No, theyre not worth it when their advantages can be negated by smart tactical play, or by simply bringing an army with 5+ saves.

Now if they had AP2 bolters...that would be slightly different against MEQs, but still useless against hordes for the most part.

I think we're ignoring the fact that they suck for a little while in this thread.

Here's what I was looking at:

HQ
1 Sorcerer w/ mark of tzeentch, winds of chaos, melta bombs
1 Sorcerer w/ mark of tzeentch, winds of chaos, melta bombs


Troops
7 Thousand Sons
1 Sorcerer w/ winds of chaos, melta bombs

7 Thousand Sons
1 Sorcerer w/ winds of chaos, melta bombs

8 Thousand Sons
1 Sorcerer w/ winds of chaos, melta bombs

Heavy Support
1 Land Raider w/ possession
1 Land Raider w/ possession
1 Land Raider w/ possession

2 of the squads are at 8 so that when you attatch the sorcerers they are 9's (or otherwise you couldn't fit it all in at 1850).

This comes to 1841 for points. It's about the nastiest all fluff list I can come up with.

People give thousand sons a bad rap sometimes for their assault capabilities. But that's because they haven't sucked down 2 winds of chaos templates and 14 ap3 bolter shots before they get assaulted.

I would like to see Warmaster's list in action - it does seem fluffy and entertaining, but I suspect it's rather undermanned at only 27 guys. Swap one of those LRs for some more Thousand Sons and/or daemons?

Typeline wrote:

somecallmeJack wrote:I appreciate a pure 'sons army not being a 'sensible' choice, but the only other Chaos power that really appealed to me is Slaanesh, & since the advent of the dreaded Lash everyone & their dog is playing Slaanesh, so 1k sons was the obvious choice.

For me, the 'feel' of an army is more important than having a list that will always be at an advantage. Im prepared to sacrifice constant victory for a list that seems 'right' for 1k sons, although as Clang says, with vehicles & daemons itll be more 'pure tzeentch' than 'pure 1k sons'

I'm not trying to be a prick when I say this, but you aren't sacrificing 'constant' victory your sacrificing victory. Unless you play in a very noncompetitive minded environment I don't think you'll be winning much. There will be a lot of melta to foil your vehicles and a lot of assault (simply because the rules make it very good right now). Just think of how some other armies would work against an all Tzeentch list.

well, as it happens I do play in a very non competitive environment. I get to play once every couple of months at best, & its only ever casual games in my local GW (local being an hour's train journey away), so Im not worried, particularly. Im not expecting play many games against super-competitive WAAC opponents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
all this advice is really appreciated guys, Im getting lots of good ideas here, so thanks to everyone whos been posting.

Ill be sure to do a blog on the 1k sons when they get started!

Typeline wrote:
Although I do say... combi-meltas on rhinos are pretty ineffective.

You and I have very different experiences. Combi-meltas are the best thing since sliced bread for chaos, turning every single transport into an anti-tank threat.

First, there's the additional weapon, which has saved my rhinos becoming wrecked on numerous occasions! I've known several people to buy additional combi-bolters for this reason. As long as the rhino's alive it has a chance to repair its immobilization and become useful again, so survivability is great!

The combi-melta makes them priority targets. Sure there's obliterators over there with lascannons, but that rhino has a meltagun and it's next to your leman russ! SHOOT IT! And if they don't, I've done LOTS of damage with those things. 3+ to hit and once you penetrate you'll kill any tank on a 4+.

Then once it's fired, you have a pillbox that drives around shooting bolters at people and generally getting in the way.

I played pure 1k Sons for a couple of years. they can be very good against many armies. Against Orks I'm afraid that you're just going to take it in the shorts against most builds. But Marine players have to think very hard about how to play against an army that can easily wipe out their troops. I highly recommend either Obliterators or Land Raiders. You need AT in the list without having to count on Bolt of Change. Bolt of Change isn't that great and it wastes the shooting of the squad. Don't completely discount the Sons in close combat either. Many players count on doing damage with a power weapon of some sort. Check out 9 Sons with Warptime versus 10 Assault Marines with a Fist. I think you'll be surprised. Here is the list that I played. Many people are surprised by Sons hopping out of a Land Raider, double tapping, and then charging.

Demon Prince
Mark of Tzeentch
Warptime
Wings

Dreadnought
Dreadnought CCW X 2
Twin Linked Bolter
Heavy Flamer

9 Thousand Sons
Sorcerer
Warptime

9 Thousand Sons
Sorcerer
Bolt of Change

9 Thousand Sons
Sorcerer
Doombolt
Rhino

9 Thousand Sons
Sorcerer
Bolt of Change
Rhino

Land Raider

Land Raider

Vindicator
Daemonic Possession

And for the record, it makes me cry to see bolt of change on a 1ksons sorceror. "I'm going to throw away these AP3 bolter shots I paid so many points for, in order to take a small chance at blowing up a tank!"

Bring doombolt, wind of chaos, warp time, or some combination of those. Bring predators or something to kill enemy tanks.

Ksons are great, who thinks otherwise? They are right up there with the rest of the cult troops in Codex CSM as the best troop choices in the game. You give the sorcerer Warptime + Meltabombs, have one less joe than the squads with fist champs, and you are set.

40kenthusiast wrote:Ksons are great, who thinks otherwise? They are right up there with the rest of the cult troops in Codex CSM as the best troop choices in the game. You give the sorcerer Warptime + Meltabombs, have one less joe than the squads with fist champs, and you are set.

True dat.

And btw, a "Pure Thousand Sons Army" in the Chaos 3.5 dex included only models with the Mark of Tzeentch, and troops were "Thousand Sons". Chosen and possessed were ok, and Terminators could either be Chosen or Thousand Son Terminators.

Through the magic of "Counts As", Thousand Son Terminators can be Oblits, and then just take Thousand Sons as troops, and then anything else you want as long minus bikes, raptors and havocs.

An Aspiring Sorcerer with Warptime and Meltabombs turns a squad of Thousand Suns from a brick into a brick that stabs people with Instant Death. Remember that the Mark of Tzeentch lets them combine Warptime with their Force Weapon, which isn't that great in general, but can be specifically quite nasty to opposing I4- Independent Characters, or stuff like Nobz and Ogryns. But it's really important that they or the rest of the army have something to deal with enemy Walkers in close combat, else you can waste them on an Armoured Sentinel or a Kan.