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Although I'm not sure why, I suddenly got this urge to do a Land Raider spam army.
I play CSM so I think I'm just going to expand on that.

My question is, does it work? 3 HS LRs and 3 min units of termis with LR transports. Just put scoring units in the LRs and sit them on the objectives.

Im been thinking the same question lately.

As my 1.5k list contains two LRs I was thinking of adding one, two or maybe three by 2.5k

In a word: no.

With a more complex answer, you'll find that it needs to be supplimented with things that make up for their lack long ranged support. It is the best way to deliver our crushing close combat to the enemy, but things like Mechdar (and most Mech due to Meltas) are such a brutal counter to LR spam. This is really bad because those lists are so prevailant. Bikers, Termicide, Defilers/Oblits all have the threat range to support those lumbering Landraiders. You need to be wise about how you get your support and how you are going to score when you build your list.

There pretty good at 1500points.

My list is:

1x Kharn
2x Berzerker squad, Champ, PF
2x CSM squad, 2x meltagun, Rhino
2x Landraider, Havoc Launcher, Demonic Possession

Deploy the Rhinos behind the LR's.

Turn One: Move the Landraiders 12" staight forward, move a rhino up each flank 12" and pop smoke on everything.

Turn 2: So far we've crossed half the board cause of movement and deployment. Now either move 6" with the LR's and try and pop a transport (If your close enough to assault) or dont move at all and try and pop some transports (If your close enough to assault) or move 12" with the Landraiders if this is the only way your get to assault or if your not close enough to assault then dont move and shoot with the LRs for a turn.

The rest is slaughtering the enemy.

I have once not moved at all versus an Vulkan build with alot of speeders.

Thanks for the responses

A list with 6 LRs wouldn't work of course. But what about just throwing a couple (or more) in there for a little AV 14?
As of now the only vehicles in my army are rhinos and my Defiler every once in a while.

Lord-Loss wrote:
My list is:

1x Kharn
2x Berzerker squad, Champ, PF
2x CSM squad, 2x meltagun, Rhino
2x Landraider, Havoc Launcher, Demonic Possession

I like it. Perfect example of good LR use in a chaos army

Lord-Loss wrote:
I have once not moved at all versus an Vulkan build with alot of speeders.

Beautiful. Makes me chuckle to think of patient 'Zerkers shooting down Vulkan Marines. Well played.

Nothing wrong with it.

But I see Fifth Edition armies leaning towards an Anti-Tank Trend, and a few melta blasts later...

But by the time those meltas would be in range, I'm sure your assault units could easily rip them apart.

Iboshi2 wrote:

Lord-Loss wrote:
My list is:

1x Kharn
2x Berzerker squad, Champ, PF
2x CSM squad, 2x meltagun, Rhino
2x Landraider, Havoc Launcher, Demonic Possession

I like it. Perfect example of good LR use in a chaos army

Lord-Loss wrote:
I have once not moved at all versus an Vulkan build with alot of speeders.

Iboshi2 wrote:[Beautiful. Makes me chuckle to think of patient 'Zerkers shooting down Vulkan Marines. Well played.

Nurglitch made the list for me but I changed the CSM squad from melta/Lascannon to double melta.

It might beat [other] bad lists, but it's sure not going to beat good lists unless they're good lists run by bad players.

You've got exactly 4 long range anti tank guns. Even for 1500, that's not nearly enough. Throw in BS3, so only 3 shots are reliably hitting IF you're immobile, and you just plain get out-dakkaed by anybody. Even Orks could blow your rhinos and then just sit there, contentedly taking 5 casualties per round from your "gun platforms".

Yes, AV14. Yes, great counterassault. Yes, solid scoring units with a very killy HQ.

And then a big wall of NO as you get outgunned by two Vendettas.

Cryonicleech wrote:But by the time those meltas would be in range, I'm sure your assault units could easily rip them apart.

Ah, but not true. The humble Veteran Squad can fire all 3 Meltas out of their transport. Assaulting the transport is not what you want to do, as you'll destroy it and be free to get blown to bits, while the Veterans are still free to destroy the Landraider.

Well, I was under the assumption that the LR would shoot the Chimera, and at the very least the 'Zerkers could get out and give it a cover save.

Meh, you're probably right though.

CSM Land Raiders run into a wall against IG and here's why:

You have 2 AT guns per 220 (or more) points.

He has 2 AV12 vehicles for the same amount of points.

The payout just isn't worth the return.

Lascannons are really only able to destroy AV 11/12 effectively anyway, so that's what they are used for. Killing transports so your CC units can get all up in they bidness.

Against IG though it would be a problem being out tanked.

Lascannons are "okay" at scoring pens on AV12, which they get 50% of the time, but they're no better than any gun (and worse than melta) at destroying them.

4 BS3 TL lascannons are going to actually kill less than one Chimera per turn.

sourclams wrote:It might beat [other] bad lists, but it's sure not going to beat good lists unless they're good lists run by bad players.

You've got exactly 4 long range anti tank guns. Even for 1500, that's not nearly enough. Throw in BS3, so only 3 shots are reliably hitting IF you're immobile, and you just plain get out-dakkaed by anybody. Even Orks could blow your rhinos and then just sit there, contentedly taking 5 casualties per round from your "gun platforms".

Yes, AV14. Yes, great counterassault. Yes, solid scoring units with a very killy HQ.

And then a big wall of NO as you get outgunned by two Vendettas.

Well that certainly was a slap in the face but instead of having a go back il ask you for some advice and how do you think Khorne should be run at 1.5k.

I got no objection to using nurgle DPs etc.

@ sourclams

I agree with Lord-Loss, rather than just shoot every idea down, give productive advice on how to make a similar list work or how to use that list work effectively.
The idea of CSM LR spam came up and even though it might not work well competitively I'd still like to know how to make the best of it.
All you have been doing thus far is saying how badly IG will destroy it. Which really doesn't help anyone to become a better player or give us insight on how to use a list full of LRs.

But don't get me wrong, I mean all of this with the utmost respect dude, I generally like what you've had to say, and I always pay closer attention to something you write.

Back on topic. What is a good way to run a CSM LR list?
I'm thinking really only to transport units of Zerkers as they will make the best of the assault ramp special rule.

eh, he explained why he doesn't think its a very good list, so consider it more of a tap on the cheek or something haha.

I tend to agree with his sentiments though. I'm running 1 Land Raider at 1750 (in a Dual Lash list no less) and I wouldn't want more than that. Once you push enough points into the Land Raiders, you seriously handicap yourself elsewhere. I'm not sure I'd take one at all at 1500 points.

Ive been thinking of Khorne LR lists in the last few mins and thinking of starting at 2k:


HQ

Demon Prince:[155]
MoN, Wings, Lash of Submission

Demon Prince:[155]
MoS, Wings, Lash of Submission

Elites

3x Terminator squad:[120]
3x combi-melta, chainfist


3x Terminator squad:[120]
3x combi-melta, Chainfist


3x Terminator squad:[120]
3x combi-melta, Chainfist

Troops

8x Khorne Berzerker squad:[208]
Champion, Powerfist

8x Khorne Berzerker squad:[208]
Champion, Powerfist

8x Khorne Berzerker squad:[208]
Champion, Powerfist

Heavy Support

Landraider:[220]

Landraider:[220]

Landraider:[220]

Total:[1954]

6x Lascannons, 9 combi-melta shots, 3 PF and 3 chainfists.

Caffran9 wrote:eh, he explained why he doesn't think its a very good list, so consider it more of a tap on the cheek or something haha.

I tend to agree with his sentiments though. I'm running 1 Land Raider at 1750 (in a Dual Lash list no less) and I wouldn't want more than that. Once you push enough points into the Land Raiders, you seriously handicap yourself elsewhere. I'm not sure I'd take one at all at 1500 points.

It was a slap cause I brought all the models

My friend was thinking of building a LR spam list that was half monster-mash. Something along the lines of:

Daemon Prince, Wings, 130
Daemon Prince, Wings, 130
Dreadnought, 2 CCW, 100
Dreadnought, 2 CCW, 100
3 Terminators, 2 Combi-Melts, Heavy Flamer, Chainfist 120
10 CSM, 2 Meltas, Icon of Glory, Champ, Fist 220
10 CSM, 2 Meltas, Icon of Glory, Champ, Fist 220
Landraider, Daemonic Possession, 240
Landraider, Daemonic Possession, 240
1500

I don't care for Powerfisted Champs, and would drop them for Marks on the CSM and DPs, but the change in effectiveness would be minimal across the board.

Lord-Loss wrote:
It was a slap cause I brought all the models

Ouch. List first, models second.

I mean, if your primary goal is to just have fun, and your friends have a similarly cavalier attitude, you're not going to be unable to play the game with what you described.

If your primary goal is winning, then you have problems.

So how to play without scrapping your models... let's see...

HQ: Kharn

Troops: 9x Zerker, skull champ, Pfist, personal icon (to go in the Kharn-raider)

3x (CSM, Mark of Khorne (for theme) or Icon of Chaos Glory (for effectiveness), 2x melta, Rhino)

Elites: 3x3 Termicide, 3x combi meltas

Heavy Support: Land Raider, Havoc Launcher

So this has basically got your... er... basics covered, except for anti-armor: 4 scoring troops, a killy HQ, and enough attacks to tear apart Orks in close combat. Drop Termies and icons provide invaluable secondary melta support and your rhinos have got even more secondary melta support. You're fine in a short range firefight.

So primary AT is the problem, now. Oblitspam LULZ. No, seriously, deepstriking Oblits will synergize pretty well with this army. 6 falling out of the sky on Icons, plus your Terms, and I'd call this list a solid B for competitiveness. Pretty sure this + Oblits will fit into 2k. This solo should be roughly 1500, and I think it'll have trouble, but that's the nature of Chaos, if you can't go big then you often go home.

It's not Chaos LR spam, but at least you've got one in there and it's not a ham-fisted inclusion... it should actually work okay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarkHound wrote:My friend was thinking of building a LR spam list that was half monster-mash. Something along the lines of:

Daemon Prince, Wings, 130
Daemon Prince, Wings, 130
Dreadnought, 2 CCW, 100
Dreadnought, 2 CCW, 100
3 Terminators, 2 Combi-Melts, Heavy Flamer, Chainfist 120
10 CSM, 2 Meltas, Icon of Glory, Champ, Fist 220
10 CSM, 2 Meltas, Icon of Glory, Champ, Fist 220
Landraider, Daemonic Possession, 240
Landraider, Daemonic Possession, 240
1500

I don't care for Powerfisted Champs, and would drop them for Marks on the CSM and DPs, but the change in effectiveness would be minimal across the board.

This is probably a stronger list against opponents that aren't mobile. If your friends play without skimmers I'd consider this pretty strongly. The moment they add a bunch of stuff that can move 12", though, you're going to have huge problems since you just don't have enough guns.

I was thinking a list something like this:

DP, wings, warptime 155
DP, wings, warptime 155

3 Termies, 2 combi meltas, H flamer, chainfist 120
3 Termies, 2 combi meltas, H flamer, chainfist 120
3 Termies, 2 combi meltas, H flamer, chainfist 120

10 Khorne Berzerkers, champ, fist, icon 255
10 Khorne Berzerkers, champ, fist, icon 255
10 Khorne Berzerkers, champ, fist, icon 255

LR, possession 240
LR, possession 240
LR, possession 240

Total 2155

I'm also giving deep consideration to exchange the Zerkers for basic CSM. It would give me more melta and I already have the models.

The goal is a 2500 pt list. What to add is undecided at the moment...

Sourclams@I want to be able to play pretty competitively but not stink of cheese.

I like your list, at 1750pts I could run:

Kharn
3x Termicide, 3x combi-melta
2x/8x Khorne Berzerkers, Champ, PF
2x CSM squad, 2x meltagun, Rhino
2x Landraider

Add another CSM squad at 2k. I cant seem to fit the Obliterators in even with one Landraider.

sourclams wrote:This is probably a stronger list against opponents that aren't mobile. If your friends play without skimmers I'd consider this pretty strongly. The moment they add a bunch of stuff that can move 12", though, you're going to have huge problems since you just don't have enough guns.

That was an issue I was telling him, and he wanted to go all Khornite. Maybe switch the Dreads to have Missiles and get a Reaper on the Terminicide instead of a Chainfist and Heavy Flamer (the one place it would do some good). I'm not certain where else to put in more firepower, but you only need enough to Stun or Immobilize their transports anyway.

Sgt. Salt wrote:I was thinking a list something like this:

DP, wings, warptime 155
DP, wings, warptime 155

3 Termies, 2 combi meltas, H flamer, chainfist 120
3 Termies, 2 combi meltas, H flamer, chainfist 120
3 Termies, 2 combi meltas, H flamer, chainfist 120

10 Khorne Berzerkers, champ, fist, icon 255
10 Khorne Berzerkers, champ, fist, icon 255
10 Khorne Berzerkers, champ, fist, icon 255

LR, possession 240
LR, possession 240
LR, possession 240

Total 2155

I'm also giving deep consideration to exchange the Zerkers for basic CSM. It would give me more melta and I already have the models.

The goal is a 2500 pt list. What to add is undecided at the moment...

This thread (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/241698.page#737603) has some great tips on building CSM LR spam.

2x Combimelta, 1x Heavy Flamer.... basically means you aren't going to average a dead tank when you land to shoot at it. That seems crappy to me in a 105pt unit that is supposed to nuke something as soon as it hits. I'd go all in on fmeltas if it is a 3 man squad. If you want to run a 4th termie in the unit, then rock the heavy flamer on him. Basically, you sold want to maximize your chances of killing whatever you land next to. THink o it like a guided missile. Lock it on target and let it demolish the target. The HF brings utility, but greatly detracts from your chances of killing a tank when you land. In lists like the ones in this thread, I would absolutely favor the extra melta so its a sure thing that the tank you land next to dies.

Remember, 3 meltas at 1/2 range averages a dead tank of any AV.

I was thinking a list something like this:

DP, wings, warptime 155
DP, wings, warptime 155

3 Termies, 2 combi meltas, H flamer, chainfist 120
3 Termies, 2 combi meltas, H flamer, chainfist 120
3 Termies, 2 combi meltas, H flamer, chainfist 120

10 Khorne Berzerkers, champ, fist, icon 255
10 Khorne Berzerkers, champ, fist, icon 255
10 Khorne Berzerkers, champ, fist, icon 255

LR, possession 240
LR, possession 240
LR, possession 240

Total 2155

I'm also giving deep consideration to exchange the Zerkers for basic CSM. It would give me more melta and I already have the models.

The goal is a 2500 pt list. What to add is undecided at the moment...

Here's the problem I have with this list:

You can either shoot, or you can move. With no ability to shoot two lascannons while moving, you want to sit still to shoot. But your shooting platforms are loaded with assault troops, so you'll want to move. But if you move, and don't kill enemy transports, then your dudes have nothing to assault. So you need to shoot, but you'll be outshot because you have a grand total of SIX weapons capable of hurting anything above AV10 until your Termis come in, risking scatter, because you can't get your icons into range. Unless you forego shooting....

2500 points is a good thing. It gives you a lot more options to play with, and lets you take the full array of "tools" chaos really needs to have a chance. So let's try to make this fit.

HQ: 2x DP, wings, MoS, Lash 155

Troops: 2x (5 Plague Marines, 2x melta)

4x (10 CSM, IoCG, 2x melta, rhino, Aspiring Champ, Powerfist, Havoc Launcher)

Elites: 3x (4x Termis, 3x combimelta, heavy flamer)

Heavy: 2x Land Raider, no possession (more on this later)

3x Oblits

So basically, you've got a variation on the mech man-rush that Chaos excels at. Lash Princes because they're so cheap and are able to unduly influence a battle. Four rush squads of CSM with ability to take down armor and hold their own in CC. Havok Rhinos to add anti-horde utility. Slightly more threatening Termicide squads for greater disruption. Oblits for fire support.

And two Land Raiders with Plague Marines for holding objectives. Your strike force drives forward taking the fight to the enemy, your Plague Raiders park on an objective and say 'Here I am, fether'.

This army basically gives you opponent the finger, saying 'Here, deal with 40 MEQs, 2 MCs, and a dozen Terminators falling out of the sky that will royally feth you up if you ignore them, or try to pry AV14 containing the most durable scoring units in the game off of objectives to prevent the draw.

You're not going to be totally tooled up for winning missions, but by god it'll be hard to lose an objective game. If you prioritize taking down transports and blocking off his side of the field, then come turn 5/6/7 there's just not going to be enough stuff left to eliminate the plague marines, who can be a potent threat to any fast skimmers with their dual melta.

Your Raiders don't need possession because they're not moving, who cares if they get stunned, and sitting flat stationary means you want to maximize the shooting potential they have, so no nuking their BS down to 3.

@ Caffran: Yes, but the list I was suggesting, and all of these, really only lack anti-transport. You will drop and take out your target with 2 Meltas, but then what? With the Reaper you have the range, accuracy and damage to atleast stun those fast moving transports for your abundance of Monsters to finish them off. All you need is to slow them down. I'll put some thought into this later. It has perked my interest, and I'll build a list that covers all its bases.

That is an interesting point Sour, and that gives me a great idea for a Nurgle MC Mash/Raider spam. I'll try to fit it into 1500, just because that is what I'm most comfortable playing and I know what a good list is at that range. We'll see tomarrow though.

The problem with trying to make Chaos LR spam is that loyalists can do the same, but better.

willydstyle wrote:The problem with trying to make Chaos LR spam is that loyalists can do the same, but better.

Well, the difference is that we can move our Landraiders to Elites and still have access to Heavy Support. Loyalists have better Landraiders, but we have Obliterators AND Landraiders.

Loyalists have good fast attack slots, so they don't really need their HS slots.