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Hey guys. Just wondering if swooping hawks are useful. They seem a bit frail and I am afraid that they'll get mowed down before they can use their haywire grenades. So please vote what you think is best.

They are a very skill needed unit, if you don't think you can use them well then your better off with a different fast unit if your looking for them. I run 3 5 man units in my main 2k list and they work well for me, but my lsit is rather built around them.

- They squish REALLY easy

- They shots tickle most things

- They are REALLY expensive for what they do

if you are planning for them to hit the board and survive to haywire something next turn... then your better off picking up wraithguard.

Thank you. Wonder what other people think...

I reckon what I said before on another thread. They may not be the best, (They aren't) but I certainly think they are a really cool unit one of my personal favourites in the Eldar codex. At the end of the day, you are playing for you not us. There's no point in building the same list as everyone else. If it were me I would take 'em because I like them, despite their possible weakness. That's why I play pure GK

Huh, thank you. So much passion in that post! That's what I love 'bout dakka.

Rubber Hawk them til end of game and then shoot units off objectives.

Hawks make a fine complimentry unit, but don't do much on their own.

They're good at nothing. Good at nothing means bad at everything.

grankobot wrote:They're good at nothing. Good at nothing means bad at everything.

They're actually really effective at fast/heavy vehicle hunting. They also do cruel things to GEQs with amount of shots they put out, and they range at which they do it. On top of that they have the utility of Sky Leap/Genade Pack. Warp Spiders do general anti-infantry better, but Swooping Hawks have more tools.

Thank you for all your thoughts! Keep it up!

Yea, turn 5 end is not guarenteed, which means they will die...in addition, landing on objectives with running is unlikely to contest an enemy held objective...if the opponent allows it; that's a different story.

I think the dead horse has been beaten everywhere...they are not an easy unit to use. They have a narrow application.
If you can get that down consistantly, then they are good for you.
Otherwise, just having the topic "Swooping Hawks worth it?" is an indication of two things:

1. People don't use them for various reasons (hate the models, hate the rules).
2. They are crap in the eyes of most.
3. They don't look good enough to warrent 'a try' and hence less people 'know how to use them'.
etc.

DarkHound wrote:

grankobot wrote:They're good at nothing. Good at nothing means bad at everything.

They're actually really effective at fast/heavy vehicle hunting. They also do cruel things to GEQs with amount of shots they put out, and they range at which they do it. On top of that they have the utility of Sky Leap/Genade Pack. Warp Spiders do general anti-infantry better, but Swooping Hawks have more tools.

I should rephrase,

There's nothing they're good at that other units can't do better and cheaper. (CC? harlequins. anti-tank? fire dragons. anti-infantry? dire avengers. last turn contesting? wave serpents.)

Eldar are an army of specialist. All of the good units fill a niche and they do an excellent job at it. These guys are average at shooting, below average at assault, below average at defense, above average at moving. So they can get to where you want them to go. Then they die. Hmm.

Good at nothing = bad at everything

This 132 to 147 point unit is good at killing anything with a 5+ save via rubber hawking. Also, good at contesting objectives on last turn.

In tourney play unit is better due to timed rounds. In casual games it becomes a liability due to random game length missions.

grankobot wrote:I should rephrase,

There's nothing they're good at that other units can't do better and cheaper. (CC? harlequins. anti-tank? fire dragons. anti-infantry? dire avengers. last turn contesting? wave serpents.)

Ah, but they do all of these things, each individually cheaper if not a tad worse. Still, you pay a premium to have all of these supplimentary skills in one package. I see them in an Eldar army the same way I use my Obliterators. I can fill all my bases reasonably well, but I can't quite cover all of the extremes. Obliterators can switch weapons and deployments on the fly, allowing me to compensate for what I'm particularly lacking at the moment. GEQ heavy army? Swooping Hawks Deepstrike for the Grenades and start shooting. A little more heavy armor than you can handle? They'll munch a heavy tank, possibly two if you're lucky. At any other time they are a competent, extremely mobile unit.

Eldar are an army of specialist. All of the good units fill a niche and they do an excellent job at it. These guys are average at shooting, below average at assault, below average at defense, above average at moving. So they can get to where you want them to go. Then they die. Hmm.

Now if you have them go where you want them to, and they die for it, it should mean one of two things: you threw them away foolishly or you traded them for a ~Landraider.

Stop thinking of Hawks as a unit ; YoYo hawks are a 200 point ++ Large Blast Template and 24 St3 shots you get to make at your opponent.


It's just annoying.

Don't think of them as restricted to Yo Yo Hawking. It is equally aggrivating. Against Marines, what would you rather have them do? Drop one, maybe two Templates on Marines or trading the 210 point squad for a Landraider stuck in mid-field, leaving the Assault Terminators it invariably caries woefully out of position. The Hawks are a unit. They have lots of interesting gadgets and you can use them.

Are they a hammer unit? No. Are they an anvil? Absolutely not. Does that mean they can't help you? No way. They are delicate, but you can compensate for this by flying around terrain. If there isn't enough terrain, Deepstrike them and get a blast template for the turn they miss. They are good at reaching out and touching isolated units, and really good at damaging vehicles in assault. If you catch an isolated vehicle, you'll probably kill it and escape with only a couple casualties.

Thank you DarkHound for that lesson on swooping hawks.

I voted against them. A squad of 10 will only hit a moving vehicle with haywire grenades 5 times, not enough to necessarily procure a penetrating hit. So they're not really great at hunting tanks, for such a fragile squad. Against light troops such as guardsmen, a unit of mechanised dire avengers does much better damage (10 hawks = 210 pts, 9 avengers+shuricannon waveserpent= 208) and is far tougher, just as mobile.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:I voted against them. A squad of 10 will only hit a moving vehicle with haywire grenades 5 times, not enough to necessarily procure a penetrating hit. So they're not really great at hunting tanks, for such a fragile squad. Against light troops such as guardsmen, a unit of mechanised dire avengers does much better damage (10 hawks = 210 pts, 9 avengers+shuricannon waveserpent= 208) and is far tougher, just as mobile.

Something I've learned is that you don't need to actually kill the vehicle, especially if it is a transport. Lets say you don't penetrate with any of those grenades, but you do get all of them to glance. I don't think it is out of the question to see an Immobilized, or a couple weapon destroyed results along with several stuns and shaken. On lighter transports, all you need is two, sometimes three weapon destroyeds to immobilize it. Invariably you will cause damage to that vehicle, and sometimes that's all it takes. Removing the Battlecannon and a Heavy Bolter off a Leman Russ will leave it with few ways to deal damage to you, effectively taking it out of the game. Taking a couple heavy weapons off a Devastator squad will exponentially reduce their efficiency.

The benefit of Swooping Hawks isn't that it does all the jobs better, but simply that it does all the jobs to some degree. They can maim vehicles, where Fire Dragons would kill them. They'll harass infantry where Dire Avengers would slaughter them. However, Dire Avengers can't hurt vehicles, and Fire Dragons have trouble against Infantry.

True, but once you use haywire grenades on a vehicle, they're in a great position to get slaughtered - especially if it's a transport, the passengers will rapidfire/assault the hawks to death in short order, and hawks are very expensive. For this reason, I see hawks as a bit of a gamble. They can either fulfill the role of harassing light infantry (points-inefficient) or go in and haywire vehicles (suicidal, more expensive than fire dragons). I see what you mean, I'm sure they can be used with some effect. I personally would rather have units that I can rely on to do one thing well.

Yes, I wouldn't trade them for a common transport. They are expensive, so you'd need to make their sacrifice worth it. Battle Wagons, Landraiders and other heavy transports are perfect targets. Even Monoliths can be brought to submission. Their primary targets should be isolated vehicles where you can get away with bombing them. Regular transports are better killed with long ranged anti-tank before they can move out.

Now, as for harassing infantry they obviously lack a real punch. Think of them like chistels. You need to make use of their extreme mobility and use them to pick off a few members here and there, softening the enemy up for your hammers. Kill a couple Devastators, or maim that Predator, and they'll cause a lot less damage to that approaching Wave Serpent. Then go and pick off some Tactical Marines and the Dire Avengers that Serpent brought will have an easier time chewing through the Tac Squad for the objective. Did they make their points back? Not directly, but if they did get that Dire Avenger squad on the objective they'll have earned their place.

I'll reiterate what I said before. They are supplimentary, and I wouldn't see them in my list before 1750. You need to cover all your bases with the appropriate specialists first. In my experience, filling your army with more specialists instead of generalists after that point tends to leave you off balance, unless you take them in equal measure.

I'll play them tomorrow and give a story.

grankobot wrote:They're good at nothing. Good at nothing means bad at everything.

That's not technically true. Good at nothing still allows for them to be mediocre at many things, of only bad a a few things and mediocre at some. Good at nothing doesn't necessarily mean bad at everything, it just connotates it.

Anyway, regarding Hawks, I find that they excell against guard, or against anyone in planetstrike. THey are especially useful if you have 3 small squads that you bounce each turn, dropping bombs as they go. That kind of list lends itself well to dual autarchs.

If you plan on using them just as a fast unit with a smewhat long-ranged gun, however, don't. Use Warp Spiders (oh, godly Warp Spiders) instead.

I only have Hawks because they look awesome when painted well. (And I got them for christmas, so what was I going to say, "I dont want hawks"? No, I'm glad I have them).

Nobody wastes fire on Hawks in Apocalypse, so they work well there, too.

I'm not a fan of 10 man hawk squads, way too fragile to stick around on the board, so yo-yo till a target of opportunity has always served me best. Don't go after transports, you'll get eaten. Go after heavy tanks, all you need is a simple glance to prevent them from unloading their payload and if your lucky enough to have them not move (due to stun/immob) then you get to assault again in your opponent's phase.

Also vs heavy you can glance that heavy weapon off rendering the vehicle next to useless.


I run 3 squads of 5 for 132 to 152 depending on what role I want them to do. Well worth the cost IMO for the tools it brings, attach a fusion blaster autarch and now you have the +1 reserves and a yo-yo hawk unit with a melta BS6.

Wow! I mean wow. This is great. So basicly you guys are saying that swooping hawks are sent on a suicidal mission? if this is so then I can base a plan on this. Thanks guys!

Munch Munch! wrote:Wow! I mean wow. This is great. So basicly you guys are saying that swooping hawks are sent on a suicidal mission? if this is so then I can base a plan on this. Thanks guys!

Yes and no. Yes, if there is something to be gained by their sacrifice, and no if there isn't. By all means, plan on them dieing, but be prepared for them to live. They can do a lot of things in a single game if you keep them away from things that can retaliate.

Oh. Thank you.

Very expenisve, rubbish guns your only chance is to suicide a shooting squad e.g. a devastator squad in assualt in your turn and hit and run out on their turn and fly away using skyleap using the template to finish them off.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:I'll play them tomorrow and give a story.

Played vs. Tau @ 1850pts

He was mech'd up all game. I killed 64pts worth of Tau with my 294pts worth of Hawk. Consolation from this game, he stayed embarked with Fire Warriors.

I won 10-3 in Annihilation/Dawn of War


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I yo-yo'd til turn 4 and came down to shoot up some Pirahnas.

I'm a genuine believer that hawks don't really make back their point cost typically, but they bring an element of surprise to the match that will really jack up plans some times.

- Late game objective contest/shot swarm

- Constantly have to watch your back for those "annoying hawks".

They are definitely not for everyone, but I personally love um

I loved hawks in their previous incarnation (last codex) but currently the only place I have found them to really shine is in planetstrike. In regular 40k they are just too .... meh. There are almost always better places to spend your points, and almost always better units to use for any of the jobs hawks can do.



Sliggoth