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40k Canon seems to say that the two missing legions and primarchs are lost.

But are they?

I'm reading Mechanicum right now, and in the Emperor's Palace, Dorn and the Sigilite are discussing Horus' treachery. The Sigilite says, "You have thirteen legions to Horus' three."

Dorn muses outloud and says, "I would fee so much better with fifteen legions...."

And the Sigilite says, "Don't even dare think it. They're lost to us forever."

--------------------------------------------------------------

That makes it sound as if the other two legions COULD be recalled or used, that their fate is known, but that there is something terribly wrong with them.

I'm guessing that one of them is the Legion of the Damned. The other? No idea.

L. Wrex

Something similiar is said in The Lightning tower and I would say that quote implies the Legions cannot be recalled. "Lost forever" is pretty definitive.

The Fact of deleted info (probably done at the highest level of command - the emperor himself) and the few bits about them lost
forever and the lack of hints in the HH series would point at those legions lost pre-heresy.

I doubt they could be recalled, but who knows? Background is already titled time of ending and maybe those lost legions become
found legions to save the day?

I don't play WHFB but I read up quite a bit that the one hero of the Empire, Sigmar, is actually one of the two lost primarchs and that the planet WHFB takes place on is actually a planet in the 40k universe concealed by the eye of terror preventing interaction.

What that means for the legion that would be associated with him... no idea.

I really doubt though that they'd ever bring those two into the fluff just because they're left blank so people can make up a founding legion for themselves to play. Probably GW never even came up with any kind of background for them other than they're "lost forever" because of just that.

No, WHFB isn't based in the 40k universe, I'm pretty sure this has been confirmed.

Legion of the Damned were actually originally a chapter called Hawk Fire something or something. They were 2nd founding, I believe.

Grey Knights were 2nd founding too, so not them either.

There are alot of hints in the HH books, some suggest that the Lost Legions have been assembled and there Primarchs were actually found, like the quote Dash posted.

But when the Chaos Gods are showing Horus what happened when him and his Primarch brothers were scattered over the universe, Horus places his hand on the 11th Tank thing containing the Primarchs (It's the 11th right?) and he can see the "possible glories never won and the lost potential" something like that.

It all comes down to the fact that GW are giving people two legions to make, so you can your own Legion up without going completely anti-fluff.

The missing primarchs were found by the Emperor as it is stated that he met all 20 and Alpharius was nicknamed "The Last" because we was, well, the last to be found. Also, before the Heresy statues of all 20 primarchs were built at the Imperial palace, but by the time Horus invaded 2 and 11 and been gone for a long time.

This suggests that the missing primarchs were lost as babies, found and reunited with the Imperium but lost again for unknown reasons, although it sounds almost like they were excommunicated. So yes, I'd say they are still lost (re-lost?).

Also, I think the connection to WHFB is tenuous as all the primarchs were found at one point. Perhaps (this is pure specualtion) one of the missing primarchs is considered lost because he returned to the WHFB world?

Horus also, if I recall correctly, damages one of the tanks. (The eleventh?) Also, when he witnesses the primarchs' birthing chambers being pulled into the warp, I do believe that he hears one of them dying.

Here's the thing about the two missing legions that has always piqued my interest. All information pertaining to them has been removed.

Yet Horus is still listed.

Horus, and his allies, turned to Chaos, abandoned the great crusade, betrayed their Emperor, sought to destroy/defile mankind, and in all other ways did everything that one could conceive of to cement their reputations as bad guys. But they are still on the big list of legions.

What the hell did the other two legions do? Or, what became of them? I have heard some very interesting theories. One of my favorites is that the Legion of the Damned is in fact one of the lost legions. Their Primarch did, in fact, die. However, like all Primarchs, he conquered or rose to a position of authority in the land in which he had been lost to. (In his case, the afterlife.) Somehow, the Emperor contacted him, and decided it would be best if he were left alone.

But after the Heresy, and seeing the dark turn the Imperium had taken, this Primarch gathered together the souls of slain Marines, and took them as members of his Legion. The Legion of the Damned.

BTW, Lord-loss: Where did you read about the LoD being a lost chapter (Hawk fire, I believe you said)? That would be something I would like to check out.

As a point of clarification, although the Grey Knights are indeed second founding, I am left to understand that they are not a splinter group of one of the loyalist legions, but are in fact the remnants of the traitor legions, the ones who returned to Terra rather than join in Horus's treachery. (Those who weren't killed on Istvaan III, that is.)

But I am still hung up on whatever happened to the other two legions. Did they do something to betray mankind, something worse than Horus? Why erase all mention of them? Is it something so embarassing that the Imperium couldn't stand to have anyone know? Or so dangerous that they couldn't risk anyone finding out? Did they suffer losses which, if known, would reveal a hitherto unknown Achilles heel for the Space Marines or the Imperium itself?

Although, OP, I do agree with you. Dorn's comments make it seem as if Dorn is of the opinion that the two lost legions could be recovered. The Sigilite's response seems to indicate either A) he knows part of the story that Dorn doesn't, and recovery is in fact impossible, or B) he knows part of the story that Dorn doesn't, knows recover IS possible, but doesn't want anyone else to know that. For whatever reason...

Interesting stuff.

The Legion of the Damned is indeed the fire hawks. They were lost in the warp. Part of the 21st cursed founding. Look up 21st cursed founding: pretty much bad things happened to all of them

Wow...just read the online LoD rundown.

Words fail me.

This is atrocious.

Rick Priestley needs to be fired. And banned from writing anything.

Ever.

Jim, I see you just realized the truth of the Legion of the Damned.

You might feel let down, but now the missing legions are even more mysterious as your favored theory just got sunk. Also, the two legions were considered lost long before Horus' treachery which could explain why they are so thoroughly forgotten. It also hints that their reason for disappearing is something entirely different than rebellion (since Horus' betrayal was considered so unthinkable).

Like I said on another thread the two lost Primarchs were eaten by Space Tigers when they were babies.

Lord-Loss wrote:No, WHFB isn't based in the 40k universe, I'm pretty sure this has been confirmed.

Under the current 40k/WHFB retcon, that's correct. But back in the day, it absolutely was the case... You used to be able to buy Amazons with Bolters and Needlers. There's an old picture of the "Slann in Space" inn. There's discussion of the Old Ones changing the WHFB world to suite their needs which also explained why the WHFB world "looks" like Earth (which they also changed).

And there was a hint that Sigmar was a "lost" Primarch.

But, yeah... GW's gone away from that version of the fluff.


Valete,

JohnS

"Legion" implies that they were at one point part of the imperium, which goes against the idea of them trying to fight the emperor for his place...

IDK, I got nothing, other than that they are just there so you can make your own.

I'm not so much disappointed that the LoD isn't one of the two lost legions. I could have dealt with that.

But, the Fire Hawks? I read their background. It's very...I don't know...blah. Nothing about it stood out as impressive or unique. With them being so impressive in their description in the latest Codex, I expected their actual background to be equally impressive, and I feel as if I have been let down. I don't want to go on one of those internet tirades that you see in some forums, spouting "witty" drivel and repeating myself endlessly.

It just seems a little silly to me, that's all.

Sigh.

Oh well, back to speculating about the lost two legions...

Why? It couldn't have been a famous chapter or anything. That's their claim to fame: getting lost in the warp and becoming weird-deamon-spectre-marine guys.

Before I tell you my idea of the two lost legions, I first want to say that this is not a theory. This is simply part of a story I intend to write about the lost legions for later.

Here's my idea: The Emperor did not find Horus first. He found the two lost primarchs first upon the same planet. And the two of them, when together, shared immense psychic powers. One ability was predicting the future.

When they met the Emperor, they had a vision of what would happen to the Imperium. They never told the Emperor the entire truth, only that the Imperium would burn.

Worried, the Emperor quickly gave his two sons command of their legions. Then, he gave them their Expeditionary Fleets and their mission: go out to another galaxy and begin the Imperium anew. That way, the Emperor's goals of mankind united would remain strong.

Given their fleets, their legions, and as much resources as they needed, the two lost primarchs set out to a new galaxy to begin the building of the Imperium across the universe.

Again, this is just my idea, specifically for my future potential story

@ ShadowAngel: *raises eyebrow* should be an interesting read.
@everyone else: The worst part is that we shall never ever know because as we know, Grimdark barely continues (story-wise) :(

CrazyThang wrote:@ ShadowAngel: *rasies eyebrow* should be an interesting read.

+1

I would definatly read it.

@ShadowAngel - I like that theory for your story. Sounds very interesting and it fits into everything we do know about those legions.

And yes, we all understand that what happened to the two legions will NEVER be officially revealed. It is intended to be that way.

Hrm.

The conversation isn't picking up on what I thought was interesting.

While the Sigilite says, "They are lost to us forever," he prefaces with "Don't dare think about it."

IE, Dorn was musing about having 15 legions instead of 13. He was wondering if he should recall the 2nd and 11th legion, allying with them, or something - in that he has some definite means of gaining access to them, and the Sigilite warns him against it.

This is why I'm so interested - their records are deleted and expunged, but at least one primarch seems to know how to get access to them, although doing so is apparently unthinkable.

In A Thousand Sons there is a little blurb when Ahriman is speaking with Lemuel.

"There was even talk of disbanding us and expunging us from Imperial History"

Lemuel shook his head

"Thats the thing about history, he said. 'It has a habit of remembering the things you would like to forget. No one can erase that much there will always be some record"

"Dont be so sure Lemuel, The Emporers wrath is a terrible thing"



Sounds to me like Ahriman knows about it to. Pre-heresy as well.

I was agreeing with you wholeheartedly Dash. (If getting a bit off topic in my rant about the Fire Hawks.) I think Dorn's comments indicate that he absolutely thought the other two legions were in reach. It's the Sigillite's response that I find interesting.

Dashofpepper wrote:40k Canon seems to say that the two missing legions and primarchs are lost.

But are they?

I'm reading Mechanicum right now, and in the Emperor's Palace, Dorn and the Sigilite are discussing Horus' treachery. The Sigilite says, "You have thirteen legions to Horus' three."

Dorn muses outloud and says, "I would fee so much better with fifteen legions...."

And the Sigilite says, "Don't even dare think it. They're lost to us forever."

--------------------------------------------------------------

That makes it sound as if the other two legions COULD be recalled or used, that their fate is known, but that there is something terribly wrong with them.

20 legions were created. Two were lost, thus making it 18 legions. Dorn has 13 legions to Horus' 3, which equals 16. I believe the two legions Dorn is thinking about is the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves. Thousand Sons broke the Council of Nikea, and the Space Wolves were sent to snuff them out.

Yes... but neither of those two (well the wolves at least) were lost to them forever, so the Sigilte was probably already taking them into account

We know that at least one of the Primarch's didn't seem to have survived his journey through the Warp, and despite what GW says I still like thinking of Sigmar as the other missing Primarch. (Ever since GW changed Ollanius Pius to a Custodes, I have lost most of my respect for them )

We have to remember that in the 40k universe, everything that GW says is canon...BUT not everything that is canon is true. Half of what is canon could very well be Imperial propaganda or stuff that is otherwise twisted in some horrible horrible way.

Surprised noone has mentioned the Blood Ravens.

I'm no expert on their fluff, but they're always talking about the "lost primarch" or "forgotten primarch" or something. And if they had been second founding or something, one of the first founding legions would have a record. It seems likely that they may have destroyed their own records during the heresy or more likely pre-heresy, and maybe some of them turned heretical or something. I dunno. But I like to think that they make a pretty good plot-hole filler.

Ah you all miss the obvious......
Squats and Fight Club

Two things you should never talk about.

The two lost legions were conceived by GW so hobbyists could make their own backgrounds.

Originally it was thought one was loyalist and one was traitor.

As interesting as that passage in Mechanicum is it's still a fairly throw away use of GW canon.

It keeps us fans thinking.

The LoD and the blood ravens are NOT related to those 2 lost legios.
LoD got their actual place as former Fire hawks.
Blood Ravens got their place as Tsons successor.

IMO, lost doesnt equal destroyed.
Would agree its a matter of lack of access to them.

SO:

20 legions/primarchs created.
18 of them still remembered in M41.
2 of them had their records deleted.
They are lost already at the time when Dorn considers his options to unleash the Legios against the treacherous warmaster.

This leads to:

-the legios and their primarchs were created.
-only one may have the power to delete their records and ban their name.
-they were considered loyal to the emperor, because Dorn wouldn't intend to re-inforce Horus...
-they are lost

=> lost could be: lost contact, maybe an accident. Possibly lost in space or time.
=> lost could be: lost to the great crusade, maybe they refused to accept their dutys ? A primarch rejecting his legion maybe?
=> lost could be: lost to the fluff, GW had to admit they can't imagine more than 18 legios....but had already said 20 are there.

Best bet would be an accident. Using old pre age of strive tech or so. Imperium pretends they never existed to dim the shame..
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