The two lost legions....

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**WH40KGuy757**

I personally REALLY like ShadowAngel's concept, I wish you the best of luck writing on that theory. I'd LOVE to read it when your finished.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Archaeo wrote:I have always held a view of one missing legion unpopular with most people that love the GW background. It has to do with Sisters of Battle. Before the groans and face palms begin saying that this is not the case I would like to ask "Why not?".

The main reason most people argue against this idea is that SoB or women can't be Space Marines. SoB are not Marines and never will be. Last time I checked the "Primarchs" were not Space Marines either. They were superhumans that were infants when they dissapeared. They were the Sons of the Emperor and led the Legions that were created in their name/DNA. The PRIMARCHS were not Space Marines per se.

The Primarchs were also made 'from' the Emperors DNA right? So basically it could be supposed that each Primarch got a trademark persona from the Emperor such as emotions (pride, rage, lust, etc) and/or abilties (tactics, persuasion, scrying, etc.). Depending on the if you think the Emperor is human or not a male determines the sex of their offspring so carries both the X & Y chromosome.

Most info talks about the Primarch being the Sons of the Emperor. If the records were expunged then we do not know what the other two Primarch are/were so by all 'known' records all the Primarchs WERE male. With nothing to go on the missing two could have had 6 heads, one arm and 4 legs.

When the SoB Codex came out they were origionally called the Daughters of the Emperor. They were a little known 'sect' that had access to 'some' weaponry that they should not have had access to. They allowed themselves to be fooled and had their name changed. There was a big throwdown on Terra and the fighting only stopped when a Custodes got the two sides to stop fighting. The SoB leadership (what was left of it) was led before the Golden Throne and the Emperor, but nothing was said of the meeting. After they left and one beheading later they changed their name back to the Daughters of the Emperor. I wouldn't think just any 'rebel' group would be allowed to see the Emperor just to stop the fighting. Any other group would have been wiped out normally.

Touching back on the SoB are not Space Marines. Right. The whole premise of making SM is the Black Carapace - or used to be. Only males could use it to become Space Marines and thats why women can't be Marines. That would also be a reason a legion couldn't be made for a female Primarch - hence "lost to us".

Anyway thats my reasoning behind one of the missing Primarchs. I also think the other was a blank as stated in previous pages. This all may be way off, but thats what 'I' like to believe.

Well you're wrong. SoB are normal people!!! Can't stress this enough. Do you know what gene-seed is?

**blazinpsycho&typhooni**

Archaeo wrote:I have always held a view of one missing legion unpopular with most people that love the GW background. It has to do with Sisters of Battle. Before the groans and face palms begin saying that this is not the case I would like to ask "Why not?".

The main reason most people argue against this idea is that SoB or women can't be Space Marines. SoB are not Marines and never will be. Last time I checked the "Primarchs" were not Space Marines either. They were superhumans that were infants when they dissapeared. They were the Sons of the Emperor and led the Legions that were created in their name/DNA. The PRIMARCHS were not Space Marines per se.

The Primarchs were also made 'from' the Emperors DNA right? So basically it could be supposed that each Primarch got a trademark persona from the Emperor such as emotions (pride, rage, lust, etc) and/or abilties (tactics, persuasion, scrying, etc.). Depending on the if you think the Emperor is human or not a male determines the sex of their offspring so carries both the X & Y chromosome.

Most info talks about the Primarch being the Sons of the Emperor. If the records were expunged then we do not know what the other two Primarch are/were so by all 'known' records all the Primarchs WERE male. With nothing to go on the missing two could have had 6 heads, one arm and 4 legs.

When the SoB Codex came out they were origionally called the Daughters of the Emperor. They were a little known 'sect' that had access to 'some' weaponry that they should not have had access to. They allowed themselves to be fooled and had their name changed. There was a big throwdown on Terra and the fighting only stopped when a Custodes got the two sides to stop fighting. The SoB leadership (what was left of it) was led before the Golden Throne and the Emperor, but nothing was said of the meeting. After they left and one beheading later they changed their name back to the Daughters of the Emperor. I wouldn't think just any 'rebel' group would be allowed to see the Emperor just to stop the fighting. Any other group would have been wiped out normally.

Touching back on the SoB are not Space Marines. Right. The whole premise of making SM is the Black Carapace - or used to be. Only males could use it to become Space Marines and thats why women can't be Marines. That would also be a reason a legion couldn't be made for a female Primarch - hence "lost to us".

Anyway thats my reasoning behind one of the missing Primarchs. I also think the other was a blank as stated in previous pages. This all may be way off, but thats what 'I' like to believe.

I agree with your theory. I'm not sure if I'm misinterpreting this or not but it could be possible that one of the primarchs was female. Usually in the english language, SONS, can mean literally sons, but sometimes sons can mean descendants, and obviously to have more descendants you need females. And also touching on the point where you said SoB are not space marines, i'm not sure if this is true, but spacemarines are genetically altered, and i don't believe SoB are. They may have the same weapons and armour, they don't have a geneseed or any of the enhancements a regular marine might have.

And i also really like the idea of the two primarchs coming back to purge the galaxy

**WH40KGuy757**

I honestly do not think that the S.O.B are one of the "lost legions". Not at all, they aren't in any way shape or form genetically enhanced or super-human like at all. Aside from the fact that they got some natural skill.

**Corennus**

Sisters of Battle came to be after the Age of Apostasy when the Eclessiarchy was stripped of the right to have MEN AT ARMS. Under Goge Vandire the Templars (forget their real name) had been his own personal army. No not the |Black Templars!
The Daughters of the Emperor had been a sect Vandire corrupted into being his bodyguard. It was only after the Custodes managed to persuade the leader of the Daughters that Vandire was actually corrupt that the tyrant was destroyed.

After that the Eclessiarchy, under Sebastian Thor, renamed the Daughters of the Emperor as the Sisters of Battle. Making them into originally 3 different orders.

Ever since they have been the elite strike force the Ecclesiarchy uses for its own missions.
The women are born and bred for battle, indoctrinated in the lore of the Ecclesiarchy and made to venerate the Emperor above all else. They do receive bionic implants, but nowhere near the complete geneseed restructuring of the body a space marine undergoes.
In the end they have slightly greater strength than a normal guardsman, but their bodies cannot take the punishment a space marine can.

Plus Sisters of Battle use scaled down versions of the bolters and other weapons wielded by the space marines. Their power armour is less able to deflect impacts, and they do not have access to the more powerful Space Marine armour like Predators, Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts. Instead they use imperial guard vehicles and walkers.

So.........does that answer the question of "Are Sisters of Battle one of the Lost Legions?"

Hope so.

Cause if the two legions do return (in my mind the Emperor's Knights and Shadow Legion. You're welcome to use your own names for the II and XI legions) they'd kick the SOB into the dust.

**Darkvoidof40k**

He was theorising that one of the lost primarchs was female, and that a female legion could not be created, hence why it was "lost" - not that the SoB were a lost legion.

**Corennus**

Hmmm Somehow I don't think the Emperor created 19 male primarchs and one female. After all there are no women in the military in 40k apart from the Sisters of Battle.

**SilverMK2**

There are quite a lot of female guardsmen, pilots, navy crew, etc. So long as you can fight and die, you can serve. Not to mention all the female assassins etc...

And it is possible that the Emp could have made a female Primarch, though I thought he already did that with Sanguinius?

**Archaeo**

There is no real timeline for the Daughters of the Emperor though. Vandire did change their name but after Vandire had been beheaded they changed their name back. Thor used them to create the SoB. Their battle on Terra leaves another set of plot hooks open also.

Why did the Custodes intervene? Did they think that the Emperor was 'that' threatened with the fighting?
Doesn't say much for the defenses around the Emperor then.

After the fighting ended why were the women not all lined up and declared traitor and killed for their 'crimes'? After all several SM chapters were fighting them. Groups and populations get wiped out all the time in 40K.

Darkvoidof40k is right in what I was trying to get across though. There is no reason a female Primarch could not have been made (not likely, but possible). The Emperor makes his 'children' and say one is a female. They are scattered to the stars by the Chaos gods or whatever. While making his crusading army of Space Marines with the missing Primarchs DNA they find out that due to the Black Carapace and Gene Seed needed this will not work on female DNA. Thus no legion to make.

That does not mean that the female Primarch would not have followers however. The Daughters could have been formed in her name and she could have taught them how to channel their Faith in the Emperor to so 'superhuman' acts.

"And it is possible that the Emp could have made a female Primarch, though I thought he already did that with Sanguinius?"

Nah, Space Vampires go both ways. Though what does that make the Lion's bunch? They wear the man dresses.

**WH40KGuy757**

Their Battle Robes.....not man dresses silly. ^^ lol

**reds8n**

Archaeo wrote: There is no reason a female Primarch could not have been made (not likely, but possible). The Emperor makes his 'children' and say one is a female. They are scattered to the stars by the Chaos gods or whatever. While making his crusading army of Space Marines with the missing Primarchs DNA they find out that due to the Black Carapace and Gene Seed needed this will not work on female DNA. Thus no legion to make.

Do you not think it odd that the Primarchs, on the few occasions they have referred to the missing two, have always referred to them in the male tense ?

Both the Missing primacrhs were found, from comments made they were all male.

**WH40KGuy757**

Perhaps one of them is Malal? But I'm just speculating.

**The Night Stalker**

This is a really interesting topic, I don't know fluff very well but this is really involved. I googled the topic and came up with this site.
http://www.ironhands.com/chapters.htm

the missing legions are mentioned

LEGIONS WIPED OUT?
"The Index Astartes articles name these legions, nullifying my original assumption that two of the three Legions destroyed at Isstvan V are the ones Deleted from Records (Number 2 and 11). In the Iron Hands IA article (WD 261), it is clearly stated that Ferrus Manus and his veterans spearheaded the attack on Horus' forces along with 2 other Legions (and later refers to the Salamanders and Raven Guard legions). This information is confirmed in the Raven Guard IA (WD 275, p.99).
Since only a small force of Iron Hands could get to Isstvan V in time, the rest of the Legion survived the massacre, carrying on to this day and yielding successor chapters even though Ferrus Manus was killed in the conflict. The Salamanders continue on (though they have no known successor chapters!)- Vulkan survived the heresy according to the background in Codex: Armageddon (under the Black Templars of all places), so it was possible for the Salamanders to be built back up from almost nothing if need be. The Raven Guard Legion was shattered, but Corax survived, and resorted to accelerated Zygote development only to create monsters which were never spoken of. The Raven Guard operated in small squads behind enemy lines until they could finally build up their forces again, nearly a century after the end of the Horus Heresy. They also welcomed the Index Astartes principle of breaking up the legions, forming 3 successor chapters".

**KamikazeCanuck**

Corennus wrote:Sisters of Battle came to be after the Age of Apostasy when the Eclessiarchy was stripped of the right to have MEN AT ARMS. Under Goge Vandire the Templars (forget their real name) had been his own personal army. No not the |Black Templars!
The Daughters of the Emperor had been a sect Vandire corrupted into being his bodyguard. It was only after the Custodes managed to persuade the leader of the Daughters that Vandire was actually corrupt that the tyrant was destroyed.

After that the Eclessiarchy, under Sebastian Thor, renamed the Daughters of the Emperor as the Sisters of Battle. Making them into originally 3 different orders.

Ever since they have been the elite strike force the Ecclesiarchy uses for its own missions.
The women are born and bred for battle, indoctrinated in the lore of the Ecclesiarchy and made to venerate the Emperor above all else. They do receive bionic implants, but nowhere near the complete geneseed restructuring of the body a space marine undergoes.
In the end they have slightly greater strength than a normal guardsman, but their bodies cannot take the punishment a space marine can.

Plus Sisters of Battle use scaled down versions of the bolters and other weapons wielded by the space marines. Their power armour is less able to deflect impacts, and they do not have access to the more powerful Space Marine armour like Predators, Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts. Instead they use imperial guard vehicles and walkers.

So.........does that answer the question of "Are Sisters of Battle one of the Lost Legions?"

Hope so.

Cause if the two legions do return (in my mind the Emperor's Knights and Shadow Legion. You're welcome to use your own names for the II and XI legions) they'd kick the SOB into the dust.

Nope, the complete and well documented history of the soriatus is not good enough! They're wearing power armour so they must be SPACE MARINES! j/k. Maybe they're the Legion of the Damned! no j/k again.

**reds8n**

Yeah, that's all pretty much very well established and indeed built upon by many of the recent Horus Heresy series books and CDs.

The 2 Legions were removed from Imperial records prior to Horus' fall, in separate incidents.

Malal, AFAIK, never really made it into the 40K setting, closest we got really was a nod of the head in the previous Chaos Codex with the daemon weapon that ignored invulnerable saves and the Sons of Malice paint job, they it seems from recent tales worship a minor chaos power/being called "malice" .He's not really part of the WFB setting either anymore either really, although some of the authors like to throw references to him and similar "lost" fluff in some of the books

**Archaeo**

On another note - someone on the Black Library fan fiction area had been writing a story entitled Rise of the Tau (its been a while but I think thats the name).

Not going into particulars, but the writers two missing Primarchs were called Gog and Magog.

Not saying anything about these two names being for the missing Primarchs we are talking about, but has anyone else heard of these two names before. I swear I have heard of them before but for the life of me I can't place where.

**reds8n**

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gog_and_Magog

They're names used in all manner of mythology and similar.

..you might have seen the names used in DC comics perhaps ?

**nobody**

Archaeo wrote:On another note - someone on the Black Library fan fiction area had been writing a story entitled Rise of the Tau (its been a while but I think thats the name).

Not going into particulars, but the writers two missing Primarchs were called Gog and Magog.

Not saying anything about these two names being for the missing Primarchs we are talking about, but has anyone else heard of these two names before. I swear I have heard of them before but for the life of me I can't place where.

Both names are used in some DC comics storylines.

Malal, AFAIK, never really made it into the 40K setting, closest we got really was a nod of the head in the previous Chaos Codex with the daemon weapon that ignored invulnerable saves and the Sons of Malice paint job, they it seems from recent tales worship a minor chaos power/being called "malice" .He's not really part of the WFB setting either anymore either really, although some of the authors like to throw references to him and similar "lost" fluff in some of the books

I'm pretty sure Malal is specifically referred to in one of the short stories in the Heroes of the Space Marines compilation. The story, IIRC, is about the Sons of Malice renegade chapter and how several of the marines compete in this race through a shattered warship that's half into the warp.

The losers either die or become mutants.

**Archaeo**

reds8n wrote:

They're names used in all manner of mythology and similar.

..you might have seen the names used in DC comics perhaps ?

Probably from both then.

**reds8n**

..err... yeah, the story I mentioned right ? The being they worship is called "Malice".. hence the name I guess, he shares some of the old attributes of Malal but...

Spoiler:

and that's how they refer to him earlier as well.

**Platuan4th**

reds8n wrote:He's not really part of the WFB setting either anymore either really, although some of the authors like to throw references to him and similar "lost" fluff in some of the books

Sure he is, just not by his original name. And he's not a god anymore, either.

Seriously, reading the Belakor fluff in Storm of Chaos points to them doing everything they can to put a toned down Malal back in.

**reds8n**

Hmm, again I take that more as borrowing some of the elements and improving them.

..you realise now that in a few months INTERNET will now be convinced that Belakor is, 100% Malal !

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE !

**nobody**

I could swear that they actually referred to him as Malal in the short story. I'll see if I can find the book when I get home tonight.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Archaeo wrote:
reds8n wrote:

They're names used in all manner of mythology and similar.

..you might have seen the names used in DC comics perhaps ?

Probably from both then.

Kingdom Come.

**nobody**

nobody wrote:I could swear that they actually referred to him as Malal in the short story. I'll see if I can find the book when I get home tonight.

Found the story, and I was incorrect. They do refer to him only as Malice all throughout.

Granted, it's 11 sacrifices to bring him around (which IIRC was his sacred number), and he hates both the chaos gods and Imperium so it's pretty much a nod for the followers of the older fluff.

**Necanor**

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I'm guessing that one of them is the Legion of the Damned. The other? No idea.

L. Wrex

legion of the damned aren't a legion, they are the survivors of the firehawks, who where traped in the warp.

**WH40KGuy757**

The Fire Hawks, thats what the Legion of the damned were.

**mcg3e**

This might be a little out there, but is it possible Orks could possibly be mutated Marines? Maybe the legions were lost in the warp and twisted into Orks. Both share similar physical attributes and a similar stubborness/bravery. It appears somewhat rational to me, what do yall think?

**Platuan4th**

mcg3e wrote:This might be a little out there, but is it possible Orks could possibly be mutated Marines? Maybe the legions were lost in the warp and twisted into Orks. Both share similar physical attributes and a similar stubborness/bravery. It appears somewhat rational to me, what do yall think?

I think that the Ork Codex, Kroot background, and Old Ones fluff about the Krork make that an extremely under-educated theory.

In other words, the fact that Orks as a species and their ancestors are older than mankind(and thus the Imperium) means that's not only is it silly, it's also impossible.

**Rashim**

Platuan4th wrote:
mcg3e wrote:This might be a little out there, but is it possible Orks could possibly be mutated Marines? Maybe the legions were lost in the warp and twisted into Orks. Both share similar physical attributes and a similar stubborness/bravery. It appears somewhat rational to me, what do yall think?

I think that the Ork Codex, Kroot background, and Old Ones fluff about the Krork make that an extremely under-educated theory.

In other words, the fact that Orks as a species and their ancestors are older than mankind(and thus the Imperium) means that's not only is it silly, it's also impossible.

They are a fungus my good friends =D! Created by "Da Brain Boyz" to stop the necrons =D!