The two lost legions....

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**dietrich**

Tek wrote:Well one of the missing Primarchs is Sigmar, right?

In the old Warhammer fluff, it was pretty clear this was true. It's since been changed, and iirc, the fluff now has Sigmar being born instead of falling from the sky.

All 20 primarchs were found, re-united with their Legion, and participated in the Great Crusade. This is clear in the more recent fluff.

I wonder if they'll pull a big reveal in the Horus Heresy books. They've said the existence of Omegon isn't the biggest surprise.

**thegrav**

I think it kinda sucks that they sacked the fluff that the WHFB world was in the 40k Universe..

We had some huge fun with that back in the day.. Space-Skaven, Catachan CCW only armies... :(

Back to the matter at hand, have we decided we will never know?

**Fiend**

thegrav wrote:... we will never know?

Yeah, pretty much. That's the way GW intended it. And I highly doubt the HH series will reveal the secret in full detail, although I'm sure they will put tantalizing clues for us to find like what OP pointed out.

BUT, that's not the point of this thread. We are here to speculate with the info we do have.

**thegrav**

Hehe, nice, and too true!

**Sageheart**

ShadowAngel159 wrote:Before I tell you my idea of the two lost legions, I first want to say that this is not a theory. This is simply part of a story I intend to write about the lost legions for later.

Here's my idea: The Emperor did not find Horus first. He found the two lost primarchs first upon the same planet. And the two of them, when together, shared immense psychic powers. One ability was predicting the future.

When they met the Emperor, they had a vision of what would happen to the Imperium. They never told the Emperor the entire truth, only that the Imperium would burn.

Worried, the Emperor quickly gave his two sons command of their legions. Then, he gave them their Expeditionary Fleets and their mission: go out to another galaxy and begin the Imperium anew. That way, the Emperor's goals of mankind united would remain strong.

Given their fleets, their legions, and as much resources as they needed, the two lost primarchs set out to a new galaxy to begin the building of the Imperium across the universe.

Again, this is just my idea, specifically for my future potential story

so are you using issac asimov's foundation books as inspiration? this sounds very close to those books.

**thegrav**

Ohhh good series.. I loved those books...

**Sageheart**

i have loved reading this.

**thegrav**

It would be interesting to see if the HH series does give anymore tasty bits out. Other than the already mentioned two books are there any other BL tidbits?

**dietrich**

Thousand Sons gives out one about Fenris, the Space Wolf homeworld. I'm looking forward to books about the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines.

**eldaran**

A Thousand Sons also talks about the lost legions (kinda)

At Ullanor, Magnus and Mortarion get into a bit of a row, and something interesting is said:

Spoiler:

"Brother," said Maguns, ignoring Mortarion's words. "A great day is it not? Nine sons of the Emperor gathered together on one world, such a thing has not happened since..."
"I know when it was, Magnus," said Mortarion, his voice robust and resolute in contrast to his pallid features. "And the Emperor forbade us speak of it again. Do you disobey that command?"

I always took that to be a reference to the 'purging of imperial records' that went on.

Interesting...

**Jon Garrett**

I always had the suspicion that at least one of the two lost Legions was removed because of some massive genetic deviation in there Gene-Seed, even worse than the Wolves and Blood Angels. Something that meant the other Imperial forces wouldn't willingly fight alongside them, given the whole point of the campaign was 'kill everything vaguely non-human' and having distinctly non-human looking allies on a permanent basis wouldn't work. Instead, I figured they got stored somewhere in the event that were desperately needed and the Emperor didn't dare to re-activate them, even during Heresy, for fears that they'd turn or make one of the loyal legions turn in a 'You're telling me I must fight beside this tainted scum?' moment of pride.

**ArbitorIan**

Dashofpepper wrote:Hrm.

The conversation isn't picking up on what I thought was interesting.

While the Sigilite says, "They are lost to us forever," he prefaces with "Don't dare think about it."

IE, Dorn was musing about having 15 legions instead of 13. He was wondering if he should recall the 2nd and 11th legion, allying with them, or something - in that he has some definite means of gaining access to them, and the Sigilite warns him against it.

This is why I'm so interested - their records are deleted and expunged, but at least one primarch seems to know how to get access to them, although doing so is apparently unthinkable.

Here's a theory...

The legions existed before the Emperor was reunited with the primarchs. Each legion gained it's primarch as the Crusade progressed, some changing their name (from the Dusk Raiders to Death Guard for example). HH books already detail the moments when the Legionnaires of the 1st Legion (soon to be Dark Angels) and War Hounds (soon to be World Eaters) meet their primarchs for the first time.

For whatever reason, the emperor FOUND the two missing primarchs, but they are not part of the Imperium and had their records deleted. Maybe they were killed on their planets, maybe they didn't want to join the Imperium, maybe they killed themselves, maybe they waged war on the Emperor like so many other human civilisations in the Great Crusade.

But what happened to their Legions? Presumably they were part of the Crusade, but what happened when their primarch refused to join the Imperium, for example? Maybe they were disbanded, retired from service? Is this what Dorn is talking about, two extra legions of marines who fought in the crusade but are considered 'unusable' because they have no primarch??

And I'll add my voice to the chorus of....

- LotD were the Fire Hawks, cursed founding, lost in the warp
- Blood Ravens follow 'the lost primarch', but that's just their way of saying they don't know who it is. We all know it's Magnus - there are hints in A Thousand Sons too...
- Grey Knights have no primarch, they were created from the Emperors genetic material in the 2nd Founding. The Emperor is their primarch.

**Waaagh_Gonads**

I hope we never find out.

When RT was written they deliberately left it blank to add some mystery to the background.

It is like getting someone to lay out their 20 favorite items, but they leave the 2nd and 11th item off the table.

MYSTERY!

**dietrich**

I think GW will pull a reveal. Whatever it is, it'll never compare to what people have developed on their own.

**somecallmeJack**

Jimsolo wrote:Horus also, if I recall correctly, damages one of the tanks. (The eleventh?) Also, when he witnesses the primarchs' birthing chambers being pulled into the warp, I do believe that he hears one of them dying.

Here's the thing about the two missing legions that has always piqued my interest. All information pertaining to them has been removed.

Yet Horus is still listed.

Horus, and his allies, turned to Chaos, abandoned the great crusade, betrayed their Emperor, sought to destroy/defile mankind, and in all other ways did everything that one could conceive of to cement their reputations as bad guys. But they are still on the big list of legions.

What the hell did the other two legions do? Or, what became of them? I have heard some very interesting theories. One of my favorites is that the Legion of the Damned is in fact one of the lost legions. Their Primarch did, in fact, die. However, like all Primarchs, he conquered or rose to a position of authority in the land in which he had been lost to. (In his case, the afterlife.) Somehow, the Emperor contacted him, and decided it would be best if he were left alone.

But after the Heresy, and seeing the dark turn the Imperium had taken, this Primarch gathered together the souls of slain Marines, and took them as members of his Legion. The Legion of the Damned.

BTW, Lord-loss: Where did you read about the LoD being a lost chapter (Hawk fire, I believe you said)? That would be something I would like to check out.

As a point of clarification, although the Grey Knights are indeed second founding, I am left to understand that they are not a splinter group of one of the loyalist legions, but are in fact the remnants of the traitor legions, the ones who returned to Terra rather than join in Horus's treachery. (Those who weren't killed on Istvaan III, that is.)

But I am still hung up on whatever happened to the other two legions. Did they do something to betray mankind, something worse than Horus? Why erase all mention of them? Is it something so embarassing that the Imperium couldn't stand to have anyone know? Or so dangerous that they couldn't risk anyone finding out? Did they suffer losses which, if known, would reveal a hitherto unknown Achilles heel for the Space Marines or the Imperium itself?

Although, OP, I do agree with you. Dorn's comments make it seem as if Dorn is of the opinion that the two lost legions could be recovered. The Sigilite's response seems to indicate either A) he knows part of the story that Dorn doesn't, and recovery is in fact impossible, or B) he knows part of the story that Dorn doesn't, knows recover IS possible, but doesn't want anyone else to know that. For whatever reason...

Interesting stuff.

The Legion of The Damned are *definitely* not one of the missing legions, as Lord Loss said, theyre a second founding Chapter that has a curse on them. I can't remember where I read this, & it was definitely in some old fluff (either 3rd edition or pre 3rd edition), so perhaps its been retconned now, but I seem to remember them having some deathly curse on them, & no one really knows if theyre real or just a legend, but they turn up out of nowhere & turn the tide of battles.

Fire Hawks is ringing a bell, but it could have been something else. In fact, now I think about it, I think it was in a really old article in a really old white dwarf (I couldn't even begin to guess at the issue number, sorry)

**xxmatt85**

Wonder if the legions are fill with like
1: a lot of hobos
2: guys with ham sandwicthes
3: Hippes!!!!
4: old poeple
so far so good

.

**dietrich**

Here's two possible reasons that the two missing Legions were expunged, and that the Traitor Legions were not.
1) They did something worse that Horus
2) Only the Emperor could give authorization to expunge records. Since the Emperor was incapacitated, no one could remove the Traitor Legion records.

There's lots of others. They're in the webway, they're in another galaxy, they're time traveling, they got lost on the way to Terra.

**thegrav**

Of course, it could be like the Jedi Archives.. Someone high up in the Inquisition may have hid or destroyed the records for some Ruinous reasons.... just putting that out there.. Maybe they were/are deployed somewhere holding of some great threat, and someone later deleted it all and made them look like traitors/deserters.

**Waaagh_Gonads**

dietrich wrote:I think GW will pull a reveal. Whatever it is, it'll never compare to what people have developed on their own.

The studio higher ups (Jervis, Nigel etc) have repeatedly said that they will not do this as no legions were ever thought up to fill the spots.
It was deliberately left blank.
If they don't know, we have no hope of finding out.

And a reveal would just leave a bad tast in our mouths. I'd accept whispers of rumours and innuendo in the HH books, which just inflates the mystery.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I cannot believe so many people acctuallty thought LOTD were one of the lost legions... wow.

**thegrav**

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
dietrich wrote:I think GW will pull a reveal. Whatever it is, it'll never compare to what people have developed on their own.

The studio higher ups (Jervis, Nigel etc) have repeatedly said that they will not do this as no legions were ever thought up to fill the spots.
It was deliberately left blank.
If they don't know, we have no hope of finding out.

And a reveal would just leave a bad tast in our mouths. I'd accept whispers of rumours and innuendo in the HH books, which just inflates the mystery.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I cannot believe so many people acctuallty thought LOTD were one of the lost legions... wow.

And gives us juice new army ideas!!!

**Waaagh_Gonads**

That is one of the side benefits.

Its like they never do a full listing of all 1000 current SM chapters. They WANT us to use our imagination.
For example... SMs with ork DNA contaminating their geneseed!

If your chapter is one of the lost legions in your fluff, great- other will not accept it but you get to have a great time working on it.

**thegrav**

LOL! Love em!

**blazinpsycho&typhooni**

Maybe GW should make a game out of the two lost legions. And since the identities of the legions are unknown, then that leaves the player to construct and create a legion and/or primarch of their own.

**thegrav**

Bloodbowl?

**Tek**

Corennus wrote:Wrong Warhammer.

Sigmar is god in Warhammer Fantasy.

No-one knows the names of the missing primarchs!

except me.......hehehehe.

Yeah, sorry to come back in so late - but way back when WHFB was a planet in 40k, it was pretty much a given that Sigmar was a primarch. That was freaking. awesome.
I'm sad that GW retconned that little bit of fluff. Slann, Power Weapons, Daemons, Primarchs, it all fit so snugly, it made me feel warm inside.

I'm hoping that it stays a mystery for a long time - unless GW do something completly outside 40k with them, like a CCG or a board game or something - that would rule.

**Wyvern**

Jimsolo wrote:
What the hell did the other two legions do? Or, what became of them? I have heard some very interesting theories. One of my favorites is that the Legion of the Damned is in fact one of the lost legions. Their Primarch did, in fact, die. However, like all Primarchs, he conquered or rose to a position of authority in the land in which he had been lost to. (In his case, the afterlife.) Somehow, the Emperor contacted him, and decided it would be best if he were left alone.

But after the Heresy, and seeing the dark turn the Imperium had taken, this Primarch gathered together the souls of slain Marines, and took them as members of his Legion. The Legion of the Damned.

BTW, Lord-loss: Where did you read about the LoD being a lost chapter (Hawk fire, I believe you said)? That would be something I would like to check out.

The Legion of the Damned are believed to be the tattered remnant of the Fire Hawks Chapter. They arent the souls of dead marines, they are all afflicted with a disease that will eventually kill them, but drives them into an incerdible rage first. However, they still remain loyal to the Emperor, and occasionally appear to aid Imperial forces on the brink of defeat, then disappear without a trace.
Check the Lexicanum for this sort of thing.
Link for the LotD: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Legion_of_the_Damned

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote:Hrm.

The conversation isn't picking up on what I thought was interesting.

While the Sigilite says, "They are lost to us forever," he prefaces with "Don't dare think about it."

IE, Dorn was musing about having 15 legions instead of 13. He was wondering if he should recall the 2nd and 11th legion, allying with them, or something - in that he has some definite means of gaining access to them, and the Sigilite warns him against it.

This is why I'm so interested - their records are deleted and expunged, but at least one primarch seems to know how to get access to them, although doing so is apparently unthinkable.

Or perhaps he is telling Dorn not to think about it because there is no way to bring them back, and it doesnt bare thinking about it. It can be interpreted in 2 ways.
Either:
Dorn knows of a way to bring back the 2 lost legions and Sigilite warns him against it becuase there is something terribly wrong with them
OR
Dorn wishes the two lost legions were available, but knows they are truly gone, and Sigilite says it is not worth thinking about it, its impossible.

This is all moot though, as we know the reason there are two lost legions is to leave a blank space for a Loyalist and a Heretic legion to be created by people as custom legions.

**felixthecat345**

The known founding legions:
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/First_Founding

Just incase anyone forgot.
I've heard of a SM chapter often reffered to as one of the first legions, the Rainbow Warriors. But with a name like that I wouldn't be surprised if they were "beyond saving"

It's not Grey Knights. They are believed to be.....

Spoiler:

And the legion of the damned are the remnants of the fire hawks who's fleet was decimated in a warp-storm, with only 200 surviving marines who picked up a disease which slowly kills them. Why they seem to appear out of nowhere, with no trace of any fleet nearby may be something to do with the disease or warp related stuff

**Wyvern**

felixthecat345 wrote:The known founding legions:
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/First_Founding

Just incase anyone forgot.
I've heard of a SM chapter often reffered to as one of the first legions, the Rainbow Warriors. But with a name like that I wouldn't be surprised if they were "beyond saving"

It's not Grey Knights. They are believed to be.....

Spoiler:

the 70 marines who escaped the drop sight massacre

Hang on, are you saying the Grey Knights are the 70 marines who escaped the drop site massacre? Because thats just not right. Or have I simply misinterpreted what you wrote, and you mean the 70 marines are the Rainbow Warriors?

**felixthecat345**

Wyvern wrote:
felixthecat345 wrote:The known founding legions:
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/First_Founding

Just incase anyone forgot.
I've heard of a SM chapter often reffered to as one of the first legions, the Rainbow Warriors. But with a name like that I wouldn't be surprised if they were "beyond saving"

It's not Grey Knights. They are believed to be.....

Spoiler:

the 70 marines who escaped the drop sight massacre

Hang on, are you saying the Grey Knights are the 70 marines who escaped the drop site massacre? Because thats just not right. Or have I simply misinterpreted what you wrote, and you mean the 70 marines are the Rainbow Warriors?

About the drop-site massacre, I got it wrong, it was the loyalists who escaped Istvaan 3 on the Eisenstein, not Istvaan 5.
Now that I checked 40k wiki it says that rainbow warriors were called one of the first legions because they appeared as a relatively major chapter in rogue trader. And wiki does clearly say that the escaped marines were either:

Executed for treachery (probably not, there was overwhelming evidence plus getting executed just isn't a fitting end)

Founded the inquisition and used there gene seed to create the grey knights

Carried on living normal SM lives (not that exciting=not likely)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back on topic:

I think a cool sounding explanation would be 1 of the 2 lost legions made a warp jump that went disastrously wrong. They scattered into the Halo stars and were attacked by an unknown assailant, at the time of the HH they were alive but there current fate is unknown. Dunno bout the other.

**Waaagh_Gonads**

Sigh....

From the Lexicanum

Just before the Second Founding, the Imperium was still reeling in shock from the recent galactic civil war, and very vulnerable. The Emperor ordered the creation of a 'secret chapter' of the Space Marines: chapter six-hundred-and-sixty-six. The gene-seed for this chapter is strongly suspected to have been taken from the Emperor directly. After their creation, the chapter was assigned to the Ordo Malleus as their Chamber Militant. The name of this chapter has become legend, and is feared throughout the galaxy by those it opposes, and is whispered in reverence by all those it protects: the Grey Knights.

Why you'd use non psykers to found a psyker based chapter is beyond me.
The second founding wasn't until after the dust had settled from the heresy.
The survivors on the Eisenstein aren't the founders of the grey knights.
The rainbow warriors aren't the lost legion.

This thread leaves me lost at how so many people have such bizzare ideas about 40k background, 99% of which can be easily cleared up with a trip to the lexicanum...