Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

And what is the citation for that particular blurb in Lexicanum?

Lexicanum itself is not a source.

Indeed. I also believe that the Grey Knights are Garro's escapees. Which mean the Grey knights are Death Guard......which is awesome. Go Death Guard Loyalists!

Your supposition that the Grey Knights are descended from the Death Guard is tenuous at best. There isn't anything that actually points at this and as mentioned, how could an all psyker chapter descend from a chapter that explicitly lacks psykers?

Nathaniel Garro and the other loyalists with him may not have started the Grey Knights, but it appears that they were the first leaders of the Inquisition.

What? Were are you getting that inquisition stuff from?

Future interations of the Grey Knights would seek out psykers. Regardless of origin they would have to do this. The main tenet of the Grey Knights is that not one of them has ever fallen to Chaos. The Death Gaurd were actually the first ever to combat corrupted space marines (plague marines to be exact). Seeing the horror of what could become of Astartes I believe they made absolutely sure it would never happen to any of them again. I admit, all speculation but when the DG touched down on Titan and were quaratined it just all comes together.

Garro (a loyalist DG), Qruze (a loyalist Luna Wolf) and a sister of silence are recruited for a new organization after the events that occurred when the Eisenstein returned to Terra (the moon actually). I will admit, it is not called the Inquisition or the like, but it is heavily implied. All this occurs in the HH book Flight of the Eisenstein.

Melissia wrote:And what is the citation for that particular blurb in Lexicanum?

Lexicanum itself is not a source.

It is a source. It has info. Just like the ramblings of 12 years olds is a source. Wether they are correct or not, now thats the important part.

Lexicanum is the best collection of directly quoted canon available on the net.
They do their best to remove home based fluff and focus on direct GW text.

Lets do a direct quote from index astartes II (The GW source book)

Legend has it that the Grey Knights were founded on the order of the Emperor himself, at some point between the start of the Horus Heresy and the events of the Second Founding. Though the Chapter's origins are uncertain about the details (see below about origins), it is thought that the Emperor ordered the creation of a force designed to fight Chaos[1]. It was the Horus Heresy that demonstrated that a powerful military force specializing in fighting Chaos was necessary.

Originally they were thought not to be descended from any of the original twenty Space Marine Legions, having been created from a unique gene-seed, rumoured to come from the Emperor of Mankind himself[1].

WOW!
No death guard
Not a lost legion!

I can't believe I'm still arguing the point....

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:

Melissia wrote:And what is the citation for that particular blurb in Lexicanum?

Lexicanum itself is not a source.

It is a source. It has info. Just like the ramblings of 12 years olds is a source. Wether they are correct or not, now thats the important part.

Lexicanum is the best collection of directly quoted canon available on the net.
They do their best to remove home based fluff and focus on direct GW text.

Lets do a direct quote from index astartes II (The GW source book)

Legend has it that the Grey Knights were founded on the order of the Emperor himself, at some point between the start of the Horus Heresy and the events of the Second Founding. Though the Chapter's origins are uncertain about the details (see below about origins), it is thought that the Emperor ordered the creation of a force designed to fight Chaos[1]. It was the Horus Heresy that demonstrated that a powerful military force specializing in fighting Chaos was necessary.

Originally they were thought not to be descended from any of the original twenty Space Marine Legions, having been created from a unique gene-seed, rumoured to come from the Emperor of Mankind himself[1].

WOW!
No death guard
Not a lost legion!

I can't believe I'm still arguing the point....

It's also exceptionally vague. They specifically do not say where the original gene seed came from, only rumoring that it came from the Emperor himself. Really, if the original gene seed for the Grey Knights came from Eisenstein survivor stock, do you really think that would be advertised? Imagine how well the following line would go over with the Puritan sects: "Hey, we want you Inquisitors to know. Grey Knight Gene Seed is actually from the same stock that brought us the 9 Chaos Legions!"

In all honesty, I'd be surprised if it's not addressed in the Garro HH book that's coming out in December.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Lexicanum is the best collection of directly quoted canon available on the net.

And a good collection of sourceless supposition and unsourced ramblings, too. Rather than citing Lexicanum, look at what Lexicanum cites for their quotes.

Your quote does not provide a definitive answer.

Neither does yours Melissa.

Only mine comes direct from GW source material.

And nobody, I would find it unlikely to be covered but if they do explain what happened I hope the dispel all this pointless conjecture.

I know that the LoD are the lost Fire Hawks as per the reams of info on them now, I always held hope they were going to be the survivors from the surface of Isstvan III, you never find out what happens to all of them.

Thinking of the 'lost' legions, Horus clearly see's one of the Primarchs die in a damaged incubation chamber before they are scattered to the warp. So, the Primarch is lost, but what about the leaderless Legion left in his wake?

Also, thinking about the knowledge of the warp and chaos in particular around the time of the heresy was limited to only a select group. The Emperor truely knew, as did Magnus. The others had a vague knowledge of the chaos gods but not much, that was probably why the Word Bearers found it so easy to convert half of the legions. What if when one of the lost was found, he rejected the father in preference to the chaos gods he already worshipped. The fear of one of the primarchs turning from the light would most definately lead to the records being expunged. If one could turn, so too could others.

The Emperor made the ultimate mistake in cotton wool wrapping his primarchs, blinding them to the true nature of chaos to prevent what happened to the lost happening to the others.

This whole thread could be turned into a drinking game. Read through it and take a drink every time someone says the LOTD is a lost chapter. Take a drink each time someone says Sigmar is a lost Primarch.

Bash_bates- he was trying to do that to the empire as a whole as he knew how dangerous the warp could be.

The second point you raised (and to be honest I have no Idea) is that there was a legion already there when the primarchs were 'lost'.

Now bear with me as this is deduction from canon rather than making up fluff.

That they were still in their incubators would indicate that they were still 'relatively' young (they all seemed to be toddlers when they were found on their respective planets).
This would by surmation mean that the process (if started at all) of starting up the legions would be only at very first stages at best, as the primarch DNA is still 'fresh' so to speak.
All the legions formed used primarch DNA, that DNA must have been removed pre the primarchs being lost in the warp.
But the emperor always intended to have each legion led by its genetic father (primarch).
If a primarch is known to be dead, why develop the legion?
In A thousand sons we are told that Magnus had direct telepathic contact with the emperor from when he was a few cells all the way through to being found, so the emperor knew that of those lost at least one was alive.

I don't recall the time span between the scattering of the primarchs and the lauch of the crusade. But it was close to 200 years into the crusade before Alpharius was found and in Legion they keep refering to him being the last one found, (and thus completing the search) indicating that several people at least are aware of there being 2 lost primarchs.
1 we know is dead. the other, who knows....

So in summation.
If the legions were created (at least beyond initial steps) after the primarchs were lost with the intent to have an army that will ultimately be led by their primarch, why create a legion that you know will never get a primarch, because he is dead?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And a reason for why there is no record is that the legions never existed, and the primarchs never survived/gave their DNA/were known to have a problem pre being scattered..

The legions are listed by the number on the incubator for the primarch. Not the order they were found in (horus was 1st found)
So that 2 are there indicates that at some stage there was a primarch but does not indicate there was a legion.

DarthDiggler wrote:This whole thread could be turned into a drinking game. Read through it and take a drink every time someone says the LOTD is a lost chapter. Take a drink each time someone says Sigmar is a lost Primarch.

HAHAHA i like this! this made my day

LotD IS a lost chapter.

What they are not, however, is a lost legion.

Actually I got my info from lexi....or maybe it was wh40k wikia, I dunno. But the 70 survivors were definitely something to do with the founding of the inquisition

Maybe one scattered out of the warp into the halo stars or summat? That would explain why there is no record of their legion, and maybe why there's something so spooky there.
Also, it would be cool if GW decided to progress the timeline a bit and say they find that primarch, create a new legion and finally replace UM.

I always liked the idea of the two lost legions actually going rogue from the Imperium without falling to chaos. Seeing how easily corrupted normal mankind can be. And knowing the emperor as not a god. But a man. A powerful man. Maybe they disagreed with him enough to leave and found their own dominion in a far flung section of the galaxy. Or another one in the pursuit of what they deemed a perfect society? After committing some sort of betrayal so grave in the eyes of the Emperor that their history was expunged from record. Mean whilst somewhere out there is a society of genetically engineered super-humans seeking perfection in mankind. Body and soul.

The theory of the two lost legions going rouge sound pretty cool but if they turned rouge the Emperor would surely have had them wiped out. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't appreciate his sons turning their backs on him and then trying to carve out a niche in his domain. So I would say the odds are pretty good either they are destroyed or are currently in a place that nobody can get to (due to warpstorms or whatnot) and may be waiting for the right time to reveal themselves when most desperately needed.

*rogue.

bash_bates wrote:

Thinking of the 'lost' legions, Horus clearly see's one of the Primarchs die in a damaged incubation chamber before they are scattered to

That Primarch doesn't die.

In "The Lightning Tower" there is a scene with Dorn walking through the Imperial Palace prior to the siege. It quite clearly states -- agreeing with the other known fluff -- that there were only 20 beings equal to Dorn's nature, ie Primarchs.

Also they had statues in the Imperial Palace -- as did all the Primarchs ( well.. Alpharius only had 1 I guess, but it wasn't common knowledge about him being twins )

The 2nd and 11th plinths had been vacant for a long time. No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers.Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded ?

In "A Thousand Sons" Magnus also hints at some knowledge of the fate of the missing legions, there's a line about it being quite possible for the Emperor to order and oversee the complete deletion of every mention of a person or persons.

nobody wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:

Melissia wrote:And what is the citation for that particular blurb in Lexicanum?

Lexicanum itself is not a source.

It is a source. It has info. Just like the ramblings of 12 years olds is a source. Wether they are correct or not, now thats the important part.

Lexicanum is the best collection of directly quoted canon available on the net.
They do their best to remove home based fluff and focus on direct GW text.

Lets do a direct quote from index astartes II (The GW source book)

Legend has it that the Grey Knights were founded on the order of the Emperor himself, at some point between the start of the Horus Heresy and the events of the Second Founding. Though the Chapter's origins are uncertain about the details (see below about origins), it is thought that the Emperor ordered the creation of a force designed to fight Chaos[1]. It was the Horus Heresy that demonstrated that a powerful military force specializing in fighting Chaos was necessary.

Originally they were thought not to be descended from any of the original twenty Space Marine Legions, having been created from a unique gene-seed, rumoured to come from the Emperor of Mankind himself[1].

WOW!
No death guard
Not a lost legion!

I can't believe I'm still arguing the point....

It's also exceptionally vague. They specifically do not say where the original gene seed came from, only rumoring that it came from the Emperor himself. Really, if the original gene seed for the Grey Knights came from Eisenstein survivor stock, do you really think that would be advertised? Imagine how well the following line would go over with the Puritan sects: "Hey, we want you Inquisitors to know. Grey Knight Gene Seed is actually from the same stock that brought us the 9 Chaos Legions!"

In all honesty, I'd be surprised if it's not addressed in the Garro HH book that's coming out in December.

Exactly, they Inquistion is not going to tell people the Grey Knights are DG and Luna Wolves. Nobody would trust them, but ironically they are the most Chaos resistant chapter ever. Born out of actual exposure in the warp. Can't wait for that new Garro book! I'd bet money it going to be the founding of the GKs.

Melissia wrote:LotD IS a lost chapter.

What they are not, however, is a lost legion.

But they arent technically lost. They have been seen a few times, by Imperial forces on the brink of defeat.

They could be the legion of the damned

Wolf Priest Ranek wrote:They could be the legion of the damned

FACEPALM just doesn't cover it.

They're not. Referance: this thread...

(sorry if that came off rude)

Arrrrrgggghh...

OK the second and eleventh legion are unknown ok?

The Legion of the Damned are remnants of the Fire Hawks Chapter, as well as some other chapters maybe.

The Grey Knights are NOT Death Guard. They are a creation of the Emperor himself using his geneseed (created after his internment in the Golden Throne)

Garro is possibly the first member of the INQUISITION. not the Grey Knights. the ordo malleus is the oldest ordo of the inquisition, but the grey knights are relatively new to it.


it's unknown if the two legions took part in the Great Crusade at all. but they were gone by the time Horus became Warmaster..

Corennus wrote:Arrrrrgggghh...
The Grey Knights are NOT Death Guard. They are a creation of the Emperor himself using his geneseed (created after his internment in the Golden Throne)

Garro is possibly the first member of the INQUISITION. not the Grey Knights. the ordo malleus is the oldest ordo of the inquisition, but the grey knights are relatively new to it.

Please go back and re-read my response to Waaaagh-Gonads on his post. It is only rumored that the Grey Knight gene seed came from the Emperor. If you are going to argue that the gene seed definitely came from the Emperor, you will need to provide a source.

We are expecting that if there is an answer to this, it'll be found in Garro's book due out either later this year or early next year.

Really guys? really? Legion of the Damned lost legion? They are the firehawks everyone knows that they are a founding chapter.

FACE PALM


We know that only hints remain. But I believe that the Pretty or Impaient Marines are one of the lost Legions.

And not only that but still it remians that no one actually knows only the Hierarchy of the Games Workshop know.

And not only that but it could be the Squats that could be a Legion.
*GW death squad enters front door.*
"NOOOOOOOOOOOO."

I have always held a view of one missing legion unpopular with most people that love the GW background. It has to do with Sisters of Battle. Before the groans and face palms begin saying that this is not the case I would like to ask "Why not?".

The main reason most people argue against this idea is that SoB or women can't be Space Marines. SoB are not Marines and never will be. Last time I checked the "Primarchs" were not Space Marines either. They were superhumans that were infants when they dissapeared. They were the Sons of the Emperor and led the Legions that were created in their name/DNA. The PRIMARCHS were not Space Marines per se.

The Primarchs were also made 'from' the Emperors DNA right? So basically it could be supposed that each Primarch got a trademark persona from the Emperor such as emotions (pride, rage, lust, etc) and/or abilties (tactics, persuasion, scrying, etc.). Depending on the if you think the Emperor is human or not a male determines the sex of their offspring so carries both the X & Y chromosome.

Most info talks about the Primarch being the Sons of the Emperor. If the records were expunged then we do not know what the other two Primarch are/were so by all 'known' records all the Primarchs WERE male. With nothing to go on the missing two could have had 6 heads, one arm and 4 legs.

When the SoB Codex came out they were origionally called the Daughters of the Emperor. They were a little known 'sect' that had access to 'some' weaponry that they should not have had access to. They allowed themselves to be fooled and had their name changed. There was a big throwdown on Terra and the fighting only stopped when a Custodes got the two sides to stop fighting. The SoB leadership (what was left of it) was led before the Golden Throne and the Emperor, but nothing was said of the meeting. After they left and one beheading later they changed their name back to the Daughters of the Emperor. I wouldn't think just any 'rebel' group would be allowed to see the Emperor just to stop the fighting. Any other group would have been wiped out normally.

Touching back on the SoB are not Space Marines. Right. The whole premise of making SM is the Black Carapace - or used to be. Only males could use it to become Space Marines and thats why women can't be Marines. That would also be a reason a legion couldn't be made for a female Primarch - hence "lost to us".

Anyway thats my reasoning behind one of the missing Primarchs. I also think the other was a blank as stated in previous pages. This all may be way off, but thats what 'I' like to believe.

Maybe some one should start a fething "LotD are NOT a Lost fething Chapter" thread so we don't have to deal with this.

Concerning the Death Guard/Grey Knights. I think that the point is that there a suspicion that the GK geneseed is from the Emperor while there is nothing to even hint the the DG are involved. Just theory. Wacky theory. I do like the DG actually, especially Garro. I do hope the next book dispels this theory.

Speculation into what happened to the lost chapters is fun but remember they are SUPPOSED to be lost according to GW. AFAIK they won't actually reveal their identities, just vague hints to keep us fools guessing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FYI, a Y chromosome denotes a male. Two Xs are a female.

I thought I was messing that up. Its been several years since the whole X - Y gene schooling.

I personally REALLY like ShadowAngel's concept, I wish you the best of luck writing on that theory. I'd LOVE to read it when your finished.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I personally REALLY like ShadowAngel's concept, I wish you the best of luck writing on that theory. I'd LOVE to read it when your finished.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh,but I ALSO kinda like the idea that someone said about having the two legions in hiding building up on strength and tech so that they can "purge" the whole galaxy. Perhaps the two theories could mix.......