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So, we have another Mantic-hater in the thread, and now it will start to say how Mantic is bad, how those guys stink, and how they should all throw their plastic garbage into the incinerator and press the red button.

Again, we will see this thread getting 4-5 more pages whyle we try to understand why someone hate Mantic so much. And again, he will not be convinced at all, because all he want is to cry and scream, and tell us how Mantic is bad being a copy of GW, bla bla bla.

Wake me when the rant end please?

Interestingly the box art lists 10 less Marauders than the preorder listing. So is this a mistake or is Mantic really going to shortchange their most loyal fans who already preordered?

@The Dark Wolf

I don't hate Mantic. This isn't an issue of hatred. This is an issue of me not being willing to buy their product despite being in their target demographic. Now maybe the fact that I find their squats disappointing is my fault -- there's something wrong with my aesthetics or what have you. But that doesn't matter as far as the success of this product is concerned. Now add to that the fact that a Mantic employee concedes the point that people who already bought their product (I don't think they're Mantic-haters) might regret doing so now that they've actually seen the product. That's no reason to hate Mantic -- if anything, it's rather admirable. But it is an acknowledgement that their product is not doing it for more potential customers than myself and nkelsch.

As I said before, name-calling is not necessary. I don't know why I'm accused of being a "Mantic hater" just because I make a reasonable criticism of their products that they themselves seem to acknowledge. I don't know why this is characterized as a "rant." But by calling me a "hater" you are just setting yourself up to be called an "apologist" (or in your case a "fanatic"). Doesn't seem very helpful and I think it's rather close to flamebaiting.

nkelsch wrote:"For those of you who worry about the legs (and aren't convinced by the photos!) there are many ways you will be able to build your army with only sci-fi legs."

What does 'sci-fi' only legs mean? Does that mean they admit these are models without SCI FI legs? IE: fantasy Legs? (which they are) Which means the model is a fantasy Hybrid model. If they are releasing better models or models with better packs later, that makes these either a BAD version 1 release or a prototype. both mean 'wait for the V2 release'

"However, there is no way I would ever want any customer to buy something from Mantic and be disappointed – only ‘overjoyed’ is acceptable when you get a Mantic parcel!!! So, if anyone has placed a pre-order and does not like these photos, please just drop me a line before they are shipped and I will refund you in full!"

So they admit people are disappointed... And they gave a bunch of reasons why and how they 'cut corners' because they felt releasing models in 2011 and having more models was more important than convincing Sci-Fi or waiting for 2012 for a complete product roll-out.

I think it is good for mantic to admit they are wrong and offer refunds as well as let people know if they wait for the full roll-out in 2012, they will have access to 'better' models. It is much more reasonable than the 'these models are perfect and there are no valid complains to be had!'

I think they gambled and took the wrong path. They should have waited till 2012 and made a polished quality product. They squandered months of teasers and talk by producing disappointing results and now everything they do is catch up and repair. I am not going to say they are a failure, but they are going to have to prove thsemselves with much better releases in the future.

Yeah, Mantic made a wrong move, but look, they are even accepting it, and asking for excuses. Ronnie is saying "sorry guys, our products are not good as you expected, but we realize that, and we are working on it". That is one thousand times better than "we have a revolution for the hobby, we call it finecast, and it is incredible".

lord_blackfang wrote:Interestingly the box art lists 10 less Marauders than the preorder listing. So is this a mistake or is Mantic really going to shortchange their most loyal fans who already preordered?

They aren't mutually exclusive options. Some fans who pre-ordered already feel shortchanged because of Mantic's "mistake" (that is, a business decision made upon careful consideration of the bottom line) regarding reusing sprues. This would just be a more explicit example. But even if they do wind up shipping ten less at least they have set a precedent for letting people get refunds as the pre-ordered product fails to meet (some) consumers' expectations.

Manchu wrote:@The Dark Wolf

I don't hate Mantic. This isn't an issue of hatred. This is an issue of me not being willing to buy their product despite being in their target demographic. Now maybe the fact that I find their squats disappointing is my fault -- there's something wrong with my aesthetics or what have you. But that doesn't matter as far as the success of this product is concerned. Now add to that the fact that a Mantic employee concedes the point that people who already bought their product (I don't think they're Mantic-haters) might regret doing so now that they've actually seen the product. That's no reason to hate Mantic -- if anything, it's rather admirable. But it is an acknowledgement that their product is not doing it for more potential customers than myself and nkelsch.

As I said before, name-calling is not necessary. I don't know why I'm accused of being a "Mantic hater" just because I make a reasonable criticism of their products that they themselves seem to acknowledge. I don't know why this is characterized as a "rant." But by calling me a "hater" you are just setting yourself up to be called an "apologist" (or in your case a "fanatic"). Doesn't seem very helpful and I think it's rather close to flamebaiting.

Hey Manchu, i respect your oppinion, and your are surely not ranting. I see your criticizes and they all make sense. It was not intended on you...

Manchu wrote:I don't know why I'm accused of being a "Mantic hater" just because I make a reasonable criticism of their products that they themselves seem to acknowledge. I don't know why this is characterized as a "rant." But by calling me a "hater" you are just setting yourself up to be called an "apologist" (or in your case a "fanatic"). Doesn't seem very helpful and I think it's rather close to flamebaiting.

I am a big fan of mantics products but I really have to agree with your criticism and the path some people are choosing by unnecessary over zealous and rather weighted comments that will eventually lead to problems. A persons opinion is not wrong but different.

@The Dark Wolf: I don't think that nklesch is a "hater," either, to be honest. It's just that these talks can get out of hand if we're not careful. So the point isn't that Mantic is an awful company that deserves to fail but rather it's also a business (like GW) and the Mantic guys are answerable to a bottom line. Sometimes this is not product-friendly or customer-friendly. It is nice of Mantic to own up to this and let people who feel taken advantage of have a refund.

We will have to wait and see.

@Thorne: Like I said earlier in this thread, I might poke fun at Mantic a bit but that's just me dealing with my personal disappointment regarding this release. Like you, I think Space Dwarves rock and I was hoping that Mantic would offer what they seemed to promise: reasonable quality miniatures for a reasonable cost. For me, this hasn't panned out. I am glad that some folks like what Mantic has done -- after all, it certainly doesn't harm me that some people would like and derive happiness out of a product that doesn't excite me. I think a lot of the fuss we regularly see here on Dakka is attributable to everyone either being labeled a hater or an apologist. GW alienates me sometimes; Mantic alienates me far more often. It can be the reverse for others without us needing to label ourselves and wave the flags.

Manchu wrote:. I think a lot of the fuss we regularly see here on Dakka is attributable to everyone either being labeled a hater or an apologist. GW alienates me sometimes; Mantic alienates me far more often. It can be the reverse for others without us needing to label ourselves and wave the flags.

Waving flags is something I pride myself in doing. I'd agree mantics vision of dwarves in space annoys me as it should Ronnie himself a self proclaimed dwarf man but hater or apologist the one thing is clear were talking about a hobby where we still paint and play with plastic men. Either love them or hate them people will be eventually voting with their cash or not. Mantic dropped the ball it won't be the first or last time.

But least people get the chance to see a different product and decide. I wish mantic every success but I won't be buying from them in a hurry and now this will be the part I get labeled too

Cosmic wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:Interestingly the box art lists 10 less Marauders than the preorder listing. So is this a mistake or is Mantic really going to shortchange their most loyal fans who already preordered?

This has me slightly worried. Technically, it is illegal under law in the UK. I have confidence that Mantic will sort something out.

However, it still looks great!

I would bet on Mantic giving the pre-orders the number they listed, while the new packaging would be sold at the lesser number.
In my experience purchasing from them, they are far more likely to give you extra, than to short-change you.
I think I got a couple extra ghouls in every pack I bought.

This happened with the zombies. They started at 30, but couldn't fit them in the packaging, so reduced later purchases to 20.
But you still got 30 if that was what you ordered.

If we're happy to leave the "fanatics" debate to rest, I will concede that my use of the word "haters" was also incredibly hyperbolic and reactionary.

I'm kinda amused that the sigs have caused such a stir though.. I was the one who made them, I can see how they kinda add a "posted by a fruitloop fanboy" vibe to the end of each post, but oh well.

Anyway, the removal of the 10 marauders is a much bigger "problem" in my eyes than fantasy legs or whatever.

It's an indefensibly bad idea, and I hope they'll reconsider.

What is even more bizzare is they've *added* 5 extra forgefathers, which is all well and good, but it doesn't make up for losing 10 marauders.

If I had pre-ordered the forgestar box, I would be cancelling my order right now, and to be honest... never mind the "hype leading to nothing" or the "fantasy legs" or the "pre-orders without pictures"...

... removing 10 models from the box a few weeks before release after a ton of people have bought the damn thing is worse than all of that combined.

I'm really not sure why the hell they are doing this, not only is it throwing away a massive amount of goodwill, it is actually illegal to do this under UK law, and if a casual observer like me can see that, then what on earth is mantic thinking?

Manchu wrote:...Like you, I think Space Dwarves rock and I was hoping that Mantic would offer what they seemed to promise: reasonable quality miniatures for a reasonable cost. For me, this hasn't panned out. I am glad that some folks like what Mantic has done -- after all, it certainly doesn't harm me that some people would like and derive happiness out of a product that doesn't excite me.

In fairness, I think something else must be considered: some people may not be weighing in (in fairness, either with approval or disapproval) out of simple disinterest in the current 2 armies.

Personally, I'm not interested in space dwarves or space orcs. So, although I find both lines to be perfectly suitable, I just don't care all that much (and clearly not to the degree some people here seem to have been personally offended).

That said, I am looking forward to the upcoming armies, as I do like the aesthetic I have seen so far.

Buzzsaw wrote:

Manchu wrote:...Like you, I think Space Dwarves rock and I was hoping that Mantic would offer what they seemed to promise: reasonable quality miniatures for a reasonable cost. For me, this hasn't panned out. I am glad that some folks like what Mantic has done -- after all, it certainly doesn't harm me that some people would like and derive happiness out of a product that doesn't excite me.

In fairness, I think something else must be considered: some people may not be weighing in (in fairness, either with approval or disapproval) out of simple disinterest in the current 2 armies.

Personally, I'm not interested in space dwarves or space orcs. So, although I find both lines to be perfectly suitable, I just don't care all that much (and clearly not to the degree some people here seem to have been personally offended).

That said, I am looking forward to the upcoming armies, as I do like the aesthetic I have seen so far.

Quoted for Truth.

I like to typically play human/human type armies. If it had been a sci-fi human army done in a new way (rather than endless tides for the meat grinder) then I would as they say vote with my wallet and given Warpath a good trial.
A decent human army would interest me very much, even as just a painter, long as it is distinct enough from the like of Cadians.

1.) I don't think we have any "Mantic haters" here discussing the Warpath miniatures. At least I am not aware of any.
2.) What I see is many people expecting a SciFi tabletop as a viable alternative to the expensive 40k game and now being very disappointed by what mantic delivers. Expressing this disappointment is legitimate.
3.) Saving money on concept artists and sculptors (by recycling old Fantasy miniatures) is a bad idea, when you want to establish a new game. Giving every Fantasy warrior a bionic eye and a gun is not enough to inspire GW customers to change their loyalty (esp. when the Fantasy warriors still wear chainmail and swords or run barefoot in tunics). Ruining your reputation at the start is not a good idea. Thought they learned from the elf debacle and were more interested in feedback, but no.
4.) Reducing the starter box contents from what was promised in preorders will cost further goodwill, again not a good idea.

Mantic has a lot of ex-GW staff working for them. Maybe they inherited too much of GW's negative side as well (marketing).

scipio.au wrote:When people first started talking about the possibility of the Dwarfs being hybrids with the fantasy figures, I honestly thought "no way", so imagine my bemusement when I saw that they in fact are.

BTW this is my first comment after posting the first Warpath concept sketches 20th May:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/370280.page

The Dwarf is clearly Mantic Fantasy. Still a long way to go I guess.

Sometimes I hate to be right

Oh, and if someone calls himself a Mantic fanatic in his sig, he shouldn't be surprised if people think he is a Mantic fanatic

I'd just want to see something in the flesh, so to speak, instead of just talk.

A couple of good scaled pictures, or some side by sides of the figures themselves.

It's not hate, by the way. You just need to tone it down on the Kool-Aid speak.

Yeah, we get that you got some sort of special place in the mantic food chain, but your getting to the point that your rubbing peoples nose in something that is an unfinished product.

Mantic poped off at the hole in as much, if not more then GW did so far with the Finecrap. Instead of trying to mouth out the marbles, its just fine time to put out the guys.

It's well over due to see a box of the basic orsxis, or whatever, and the little stunties.

If that stuff IS really just bits tacked onto a fantasy dwarf, then the natural question begs to be asked- is that weapons and armor sets interchangeable with equal scale dwarfs?

If so-

I know of a few boxes of dwarf slayers that could use a headswap, or weapons add.

Something I think is interesting is the different takes on multi-use kits.
Here is thread on rhinos and their variants SM tanks. It's got few responses, but folks seem to be okay with that type of reuse.
Once it's a foot soldier and/or it's not GW, it feels like it's a deal of the big and hairy variety.

Just sayin':

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/403365.page

privateer4hire wrote:Something I think is interesting is the different takes on multi-use kits.
Here is thread on rhinos and their variants SM tanks. It's got few responses, but folks seem to be okay with that type of reuse.

That's not the same thing. The SM tank variants make sense in universe: the Space Marines use both Rhinos and Whirlwinds for the same reason the US military uses both the M113 and the M901, or the C-130 transport and the AC-130 gunship. The only justification for the derivative nature of Mantic's Warpath models is out of universe: because Mantic, not the Forgefathers and Marauders, did it.

lord marcus wrote:Wargamers on forums represent less than 10% of the community at large. Just to keep facts in this thread.

Of course - forums such as this attract the most passionate and noisiest of any group. Videogame and car forums are much the same. That's why I don't care enough to feed back to them directly. Most companies have a certain number of extreme fans and sycophants (two different but related groups) who will be incredibly active on their home forums. The sycophants wil say their chosen company can do no wrong and white knight them at every opportunity. Note I'm not calling anyone here sycophants, but this is a well-established pattern. Check the Bioware KOTORO forums for some good examples of this.

Equally, you'll have a number of haters (if they are tolerated and not banned outright with harsh moderation). Just as the sycophants will say that the company can do no wrong, the haters say they can do nothing right. Again for an example, check out Blizzard's World of Warcraft forums.

In the end, the boxes will sell or not sell based on the quality of the contents. My own opinion is that they missed a sure-fire chance to make something awesome and have instead brought out a product that is pretty "meh". They're competing directly with AoBR in the marketspace, along with Warmachine, Dust Tactics, etc. Will their quality/quantity/price ratio be good enough to get them by? We'll see. As I said before, pretty much everything in this thread that's not opinion though, is speculation. We won't know if Warpath is a raging success or dismal failure, or more likely, a product that does "ok" for quite some time.

We also won't know if it would have sold gangbusters numbers if the figures were better or if it were priced lower (around the initial KoW boxed set price - not the resissued and price-increased recent version.)

privateer4hire wrote:Something I think is interesting is the different takes on multi-use kits.
Here is thread on rhinos and their variants SM tanks. It's got few responses, but folks seem to be okay with that type of reuse.
Once it's a foot soldier and/or it's not GW, it feels like it's a deal of the big and hairy variety.

Just sayin':

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/403365.page

Apples and oranges. GW uses the rhino chassis several times in the same universe for Imperial armies (space marines, SOB, etc.) and there's a precedent for such reuse of armored vehicles. During WW2, the U.S. alone used over a dozen different variants of the Sherman tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_tank#US_variants). What Mantic has done with their Warpath figures is more akin to GW taking the Empire steam tank, adding on some machine guns and targeting lenses, and putting it in the space marine army. (Actually, that could be kinda cool, now that I think about it.)

Gerry Lee wrote: Ronnie never said he made a disappointing product. Never. He said if -you- or others are unhappy, he'll refund your money on the preorders. No matter how good Warpath is, you can't please everyond.

This is a good thing, and shows that they have some integrity. I think showing the entire product before accepting money for it would have displayed more integrity, as they and we well know that a number of people who may not have ordered won't bother to cancel, but it's something at least. Of course, we have no way of knowing what kind of feedback they received when they finally showed their products so a public offer to refund anyone who preordered could be a public show of good faith or damage control - or both.




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Manchu wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:Interestingly the box art lists 10 less Marauders than the preorder listing. So is this a mistake or is Mantic really going to shortchange their most loyal fans who already preordered?

They aren't mutually exclusive options. Some fans who pre-ordered already feel shortchanged because of Mantic's "mistake" (that is, a business decision made upon careful consideration of the bottom line) regarding reusing sprues. This would just be a more explicit example. But even if they do wind up shipping ten less at least they have set a precedent for letting people get refunds as the pre-ordered product fails to meet (some) consumers' expectations.

Well, pre-selling and taking people's money for a box of 20 widgets and then shipping 15 widgets to those who paid is shortchanging in a much more legal and specific sense than simply not living up to expectations... I'm not sure if it's legally fraud, but I assume it's not particularly legal.

If this turns out to be true, then I certainly won't be pre-ordering any Mantic product in future. Not that I pre-order a lot of stuff, but I do pre-order things from time to time. It's a much more serious erosion of trust than even the concept art-final product shenanigans...





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skrulnik wrote:
I would bet on Mantic giving the pre-orders the number they listed, while the new packaging would be sold at the lesser number.
In my experience purchasing from them, they are far more likely to give you extra, than to short-change you.
I think I got a couple extra ghouls in every pack I bought.

This happened with the zombies. They started at 30, but couldn't fit them in the packaging, so reduced later purchases to 20.
But you still got 30 if that was what you ordered.

This explains things a little better, but shows another remarkable lack of foesight on their part. Especially if this has happened before(!) This is really quite amateurish.. in fact, shockingly so.
I expect there will be no price drop in the boxed set commensurate with the decrease in product, which again affects the "value for money" aspect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroothawk wrote:
Mantic has a lot of ex-GW staff working for them. Maybe they inherited too much of GW's negative side as well (marketing).

I had a similar thought a few days ago - but that perhaps they inherited GW's arrogance about their product.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

privateer4hire wrote:Something I think is interesting is the different takes on multi-use kits.
Here is thread on rhinos and their variants SM tanks. It's got few responses, but folks seem to be okay with that type of reuse.
Once it's a foot soldier and/or it's not GW, it feels like it's a deal of the big and hairy variety.

Just sayin':

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/403365.page

I dunno. I think adding a turret to an APC that's based on the M113 is much more similar to the real-world practice of putting a turret on an actual M113. Re-use of kit parts within reason is eminently reasonable. It just comes down to what people consider reasonable - or not!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Guildsman wrote:
Apples and oranges. GW uses the rhino chassis several times in the same universe for Imperial armies (space marines, SOB, etc.) and there's a precedent for such reuse of armored vehicles. During WW2, the U.S. alone used over a dozen different variants of the Sherman tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_tank#US_variants). What Mantic has done with their Warpath figures is more akin to GW taking the Empire steam tank, adding on some machine guns and targeting lenses, and putting it in the space marine army. (Actually, that could be kinda cool, now that I think about it.)

I've seen someone's conversion, somewhere - where they did similar to that for a Black Templars army...

Would it be possible to open a new thread discussing the pro's and con's of Mantic's direction? That way the 3-4 people involved in it can repeat this same argument that they have been making for 10 pages or more there, and hopefully this page could be used to show news and new photos and the like?

I'm genuinely interested in seeing what new things are coming along, but I have to be honest it's getting a little tiresome reading through the same polarised viewpoints over and over again just to try and find if there is actually any new information in amongst it.

Pacific wrote:Would it be possible to open a new thread discussing the pro's and con's of Mantic's direction?

Feel free to do so and link it here.

That way the 3-4 people involved in it can repeat this same argument that they have been making for 10 pages or more there, and hopefully this page could be used to show news and new photos and the like?

Still, this is legitimate discussion of the News in question. I think if there comes newer News it should probably warrant its own new thread.

Well, the pictures of new product are very staggered, and as Manchu said, we're discussing the current Mantic news - and I think in quite a civil mannr overall. By being here we're also keeping Mantic at or near the top of the front page, so they're not sinking into Dakka obscurity!

Are we expecting any more releases from them this year? My impression was that the Warpath box and the metal characters were pretty much it for the rest of the 2011 period up to and including Christmas - with the follow-on product being the same models as the boxed set in unit boxes/packs.

I had a thought about the Orx "shortchanging." Maybe for some reason the initial print run of Orx was too small and now Rendera is busy with something else and can't make more in time for the release. So Mantic clumsily retconned the contents of the box, swapping 10 Orx for 5 "free" Forge Fathers. It's still illegal, but maybe Matic has budget lawyers to go with budget sculptors

I still think Renendra should upsize if they are getting so much business.

Manchu wrote:

Pacific wrote:Would it be possible to open a new thread discussing the pro's and con's of Mantic's direction?

Feel free to do so and link it here.

Considering this is meant to be a news thread, shouldn't it be the people who are just making the "I dislike that they are using KoW bits" or the "I don't mind, you shouldn't criticize them for that" posts which have filled every page since about p10 be making the thread to continue that discussion?

Although it is my fault for naively clicking on the thread every time it has moved back to the top, I would probably be better off waiting a couple of days and then skimming through it

RE box contents:

Mantic wrote:Guys, the packaging was just an old photo - the contents have NOT been changed. We've updated the photo to the latest version. There are still 40 Grunts in the box. We are not breaking the law nor would we randomly just take figures out, especially when we've recently added free figures in.

EDIT: also BoW news is using the correct 55 model artwork.

That's good to hear, then.

*off-topic* - checked your painting blog, Baragash. I like the paint you've done on that female demon figure. Can you link to what it is?