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warboss wrote:Yeah, they ripped off that band aid two years ago. Anyone who thought otherwise (not necessarily HBMC as I suspect he's playing coy) was kidding themselves. The best we can hope for is legacy support going forward.

My guess: There will be legacy support until Primaris have everything you need (all the main selling chapters, all the units,…). From then on you will be lucky to get some sort of simple army list that maybe gets updated with each new edition of the game. Then when they see that "nobody" is playing old marines in their stores and tournaments (because the rules are coincidentally not good enough) and when Primaris sales have stabilised or overtaken old marine sales there won't even be lists anymore two/three editions later.

You'll get to play your old marines with legacy rules at home (if you want) and from then on the focus will be on Primaris Marines alone. Your old marines will feel like some of those old RT metal marines with strange weapon combinations that don't work in modern (meaning: 90s or 00s) rules anymore. An old artefact that's of no use in the new game except for some conversions or as an oddity (like using the occasional Mk1 Land Raider once the new one was released).

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:So is it, like, really dangerous to cross the Rubicon Primaris? And if so, what are the chances we'll see any named characters dying in the process? Like, oh no! Commander Dante died in surgery! Such a tragic end for such a noble hero!

They will extract the character specific gene-seed when they die in some dramatic/heroic way (too heroic for a dreadnought) and use that with the new, experimental process to create Primaris special characters. This experimental approach might even have some downside like rapid ageing so that your new Primaris special character will feel like your old marine character always was a Primaris character. For historic characters who are already dead: They found some of their gene-seed/DNA somewhere, then the sam process.

That way all the nicely selling special characters can get a Primaris makeover. GW just need to "invent" some new cloning lore by looking back at Dune.

 Togusa wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

The look better,
Fit the Universe More
Feel more like marines

I agree that some of them look much better (basically the interceptor and phobos/reaver types) but how do they fit the universe more? As for feel more like marines, do you mean in regards to the rules? GW purposefully gave Secundus/classic marines gakky rules (like no AP on bolters) in order to differentiate Primaris. Primaris are what normal marines should have been this edition given the decades of fluff but they obviously and unsurprisingly prioritized selling the new kits.

Clarification: They look the appropriate size when compared to other races on the tabletop. Proportions look better, they feel powerful just from their aesthetics.

The models are definitely a much more powerful and imposing size compared to other miniatures, but the problem seems to still be there as the Primaris Marine lore says they are meant to be bigger than standard marines. If normal Space Marine Miniatures should really be around the same size as a Primaris Marine miniature in comparison to other stuff, that means the Primaris Marines miniatures are the wrong size to be Primaris Marines.

That do it yourself chapter trait might, just might. Convinced me to start sons of malice

Anyone know if you can mix elements of the First founding Chapters? Or do you have to start from, say, Salamanders reroll 1 hit/wound trait and add a second trait that ISN'T shared by UM, WS, RG, etc

As-in, can you have a Salamanders successor with reroll 1 hit/wound and fallback/shoot traits allied with an UM successor detachment with fallback/shoot and reroll 1 hit/wound traits?
I ask because my son's play Salamanders/UMs respectively and they have a brotherly rivalry for whose Chapter is the best. With the successor traits, we could basically make them the same without either giving up their chosen Chapter

Although what's more likely to happen is that they chose completely different traits to keep one-upping each other

-

There are a lot of pages on this thread but will the new codex and supplements be primaris only? on the back of the white scars book There is a bike and land speeder, unless they are primaris versions with no discernible difference.

Jimbobbyish wrote:
There are a lot of pages on this thread but will the new codex and supplements be primaris only? on the back of the white scars book There is a bike and land speeder, unless they are primaris versions with no discernible difference.

Most certainly not Primaris only. GW confirmed the main Codex will have 76 datasheets, and there aren't nearly that many Primaris units.

-

 Galef wrote:

Jimbobbyish wrote:
There are a lot of pages on this thread but will the new codex and supplements be primaris only? on the back of the white scars book There is a bike and land speeder, unless they are primaris versions with no discernible difference.

Most certainly not Primaris only. GW confirmed the main Codex will have 76 datasheets, and there aren't nearly that many Primaris units.

-

Depends, do you count all of the lieutenants separately...?

 The Forgemaster wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Jimbobbyish wrote:
There are a lot of pages on this thread but will the new codex and supplements be primaris only? on the back of the white scars book There is a bike and land speeder, unless they are primaris versions with no discernible difference.

Most certainly not Primaris only. GW confirmed the main Codex will have 76 datasheets, and there aren't nearly that many Primaris units.

-

Depends, do you count all of the lieutenants separately...?

Don't be silly, with all the Primaris Lieutenants that wouldn't be a codex but rather a full enceclopedia.

 Galef wrote:
Anyone know if you can mix elements of the First founding Chapters? Or do you have to start from, say, Salamanders reroll 1 hit/wound trait and add a second trait that ISN'T shared by UM, WS, RG, etc

As-in, can you have a Salamanders successor with reroll 1 hit/wound and fallback/shoot traits allied with an UM successor detachment with fallback/shoot and reroll 1 hit/wound traits?
I ask because my son's play Salamanders/UMs respectively and they have a brotherly rivalry for whose Chapter is the best. With the successor traits, we could basically make them the same without either giving up their chosen Chapter

Although what's more likely to happen is that they chose completely different traits to keep one-upping each other

-

You probably won't be able to do that for balancing reasons. Imagine someone taking the Fall Back trait of the Ultramarines and the assault trait of the White Scars. It would get a bit silly.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Anyone know if you can mix elements of the First founding Chapters? Or do you have to start from, say, Salamanders reroll 1 hit/wound trait and add a second trait that ISN'T shared by UM, WS, RG, etc

As-in, can you have a Salamanders successor with reroll 1 hit/wound and fallback/shoot traits allied with an UM successor detachment with fallback/shoot and reroll 1 hit/wound traits?
I ask because my son's play Salamanders/UMs respectively and they have a brotherly rivalry for whose Chapter is the best. With the successor traits, we could basically make them the same without either giving up their chosen Chapter

Although what's more likely to happen is that they chose completely different traits to keep one-upping each other

-

You probably won't be able to do that for balancing reasons. Imagine someone taking the Fall Back trait of the Ultramarines and the assault trait of the White Scars. It would get a bit silly.

Can’t you do that with the Indomitus Crusaders specialist detachment?

 Apple Peel wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Anyone know if you can mix elements of the First founding Chapters? Or do you have to start from, say, Salamanders reroll 1 hit/wound trait and add a second trait that ISN'T shared by UM, WS, RG, etc

As-in, can you have a Salamanders successor with reroll 1 hit/wound and fallback/shoot traits allied with an UM successor detachment with fallback/shoot and reroll 1 hit/wound traits?
I ask because my son's play Salamanders/UMs respectively and they have a brotherly rivalry for whose Chapter is the best. With the successor traits, we could basically make them the same without either giving up their chosen Chapter

Although what's more likely to happen is that they chose completely different traits to keep one-upping each other

-

You probably won't be able to do that for balancing reasons. Imagine someone taking the Fall Back trait of the Ultramarines and the assault trait of the White Scars. It would get a bit silly.

Can’t you do that with the Indomitus Crusaders specialist detachment?

Which would cost CP to pull off, which is a balancing point.

 bullyboy wrote:

 xKillGorex wrote:
Never thought I’d say this but damn i really want all of these new marine kits. Although some of the scopes need to go, they remind me of the speed guns the police use.

I see a diorama with a marine policeman and ork buggy

**blam**blam** "Stop or I'll shoot!"

Im excited to see the potential for a Slamghatai Khan tomorrow. Since Khan Bikers are back, give him a Thunder Hammer, Advance and Charge with a Bike. 5 base Attacks, Plus Shock Assault. Sure you might not get the no overwatch stuff (unless WS end up with a relic). But Suppressors can deny overwatch.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Since Khan Bikers are back, give him a Thunder Hammer...

Careful now. The return of Khan Bikers might just mean the resin conversion pack with the power lance/spear thingy. Khan Bikers could very well have exactly one option - that spear - and nothing else.

That would suck. But, it would be a case of "no model no rules" striking again.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Since Khan Bikers are back, give him a Thunder Hammer...

Careful now. The return of Khan Bikers might just mean the resin conversion pack with the power lance/spear thingy. Khan Bikers could very well have exactly one option - that spear - and nothing else.

As long as it's multi-damage or close to a Relic Blade I wouldn't care too much.

bananathug wrote:Wow, as a marine player this is just crazy.

If the rest of the splat books contain abilities as powerful as this one hello marine meta.

The cash grab aspect of this really bothers me though. Obvious OP rules are obvious and this doesn't even look like GW was trying to put out something balanced.

The splat books are going to be a must buy. The "marine book" is basically a 40$ tax to be able to play your chapter.

DA/SW/BA/DW (me) are majorly boned by this release though. Paying for marine units without new and improved marine rules is so bad for factions (DA/SW/BA) that already struggled to keep up with codex marines. The same for the rest of the marine chapters who don't have their releases yet (at least their salvation is just beyond the horizon...)

As much as I like to see marines improved this release is starting to look bad for the health of the game, a thinly veiled pay to win cash grab and indicative of GW not understanding the game they make (most of my main gripes about 40k).

All this could be changed by what we actually see in the codex so I'm trying my best to hold off on rushing to judgement but from what we've seen so far it's not looking good (no Gman nerf!?!?)...

At this point I'm pretty sure GW knows exactly what kind of game they want to make. Balance is probably only 25%(if that) of GW's total game design. They release stuff(perceived good or not), people buy a bunch, GW messes with stuff, now there's something else.....lather, rinse, repeat.

GW makes the game for people like them; laid back, no purposefully trying to break the game, fielding stuff just cuz cool. that may not jibe with tourney/power gamers wants/needs but it seems to work for the majority.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
That would suck. But, it would be a case of "no model no rules" striking again.

Captain on Bike is still listed in the Codex. This one is probably just White Scar flavored.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Since Khan Bikers are back, give him a Thunder Hammer...

Careful now. The return of Khan Bikers might just mean the resin conversion pack with the power lance/spear thingy. Khan Bikers could very well have exactly one option - that spear - and nothing else.

or it might simply be "khans on bikes have a power spear: or can replace it with.."

Except there's only one Khan on Bike mini (assuming they re-release that conversion kit), therefore...

Guess what guys Khan on bike is mono pose.
Options: Get REKT.

 ImAGeek wrote:

Well that would work, if you could buy the box set anymore. Which you can’t (in the UK at least). So they just aren’t getting any money.

This is also something they’ve done for a long time, it’s not new behaviour. Starter boxes tend to have a unit or two that are only available in that box.

Except generally the kits appear on their own generally ~half a year later so in this fall oblits and venom crawler are very likely to appear on their own.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:


Looks like chapter master is a unit and not a stratagem again.

Why would you think that? The current Halo states "ULTRAMARINES CAPTAIN or CHAPTER MASTER only." despite the CHAPTER MASTER being a Stratagem.

Just a thought but I think a chapter master should be either a separate unit or an upgrade for a captain that costs points - not CPs. After all, why would an army commanded by a chapter master have fewer CPs to spend than one led by a captain?

That might actually make sense, a captain can devote all his energy and thought to the battle in question,

a chapter master will also have to consider things in in terms of what's good for the chapter (eg well we could win but the losses we'd take will leave us dangerously weakened), and may well be getting messages from bits of the chapter engaged elsewhere looking for advise/orders etc

Honestly, I think with a little bit of a points bump none of these rules are all that bad for the game in terms of power creep. Marines have sat in a place where a whole bunch of their units aren't great, and this rolls around and gives them some serious potential to function in a number of different ways.

Even I have a box of intercessors sitting around waiting for me to do something with them, this looks like I may finally actually have a reason to. Might get them a transport and some friends and call it an army.

Not sure if its been mentioned already but thought it relevant to the SM rumour thread - Rhinos and Razorbacks have been completely removed from the GW website. Chaos Rhino and all variant tanks still there but it seems like its the beginning of the end for OldMarines

 Deadshot wrote:
Not sure if its been mentioned already but thought it relevant to the SM rumour thread - Rhinos and Razorbacks have been completely removed from the GW website. Chaos Rhino and all variant tanks still there but it seems like its the beginning of the end for OldMarines

Don't forget there's a reinvisioned demios rhino coming with sisters you'll be able to use in worst case scenario.

Dudeface wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Not sure if its been mentioned already but thought it relevant to the SM rumour thread - Rhinos and Razorbacks have been completely removed from the GW website. Chaos Rhino and all variant tanks still there but it seems like its the beginning of the end for OldMarines

Don't forget there's a reinvisioned demios rhino coming with sisters you'll be able to use in worst case scenario.

Of course, I'm just suggesting that if OldMarine transports are going the way of the dodo, then OldMarines themselves might not be far behind. Stuff like Land Raiders are big enough to accommodate Primaris but what use are Rhinos or Razorbacks if 80%+ of your troops can't fit inside?

 Deadshot wrote:
Not sure if its been mentioned already but thought it relevant to the SM rumour thread - Rhinos and Razorbacks have been completely removed from the GW website. Chaos Rhino and all variant tanks still there but it seems like its the beginning of the end for OldMarines

Or they could be getting reboxed and released under a new SKU. They did that with a bunch of CSM units when their last codex came out, including the Rhino. Look at the date in the URL:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Chaos-Space-Marine-Rhino-2019

Well, what I like about the new codex is:
- the return of the “Create your own faction” mindset, which really should have come earlier.
- maybe, finally, we will see the 3 snowflake marines being rolled back into the main marine codex. I mean, seriously, what's the big difference between some death company marines, some wulfen and some dragon claws ( https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Black_Dragons ) ? Should just be a generic “mutated melee marines” choice, available for the Black Dragon players without requiring them to use the DA or SW specific rules… Same with “elite bikers” (should be available to White Scars not just DA) and all that.

What I don't like is:
- More “story advancement” non-sense? Please no stop stop!!!
- Why mix the grey knight baby carrier with the centurion when both are widely mocked and disliked? Why? It looks terrible!
- Primaris are still an unbelievably bad addition to the settings, lorewise, and prepping up stupid stuff about the rubicon being dangerous when every named character will go through it without problem? Baaaaad!

KurtAngle2 wrote:
I think it's kinda insulting for other Xeno factions. I'm happy that Marines get an updated codex after 2 years (this sets a precedent for other codices updates I think) but the mere release of even new Marine models after only FIVE MONTHS from the last marine release whilst neglecting all Xenos factions that have received NOTHING in the last few years apart from their Codex is braindead at best.

Count how many releases marine got since the last Sisters release. If the new Sisters get one tenth of what marines got, and none of the old models are kept, the range will, like, quadruple or something.