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 Coyote81 wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:

Vorian wrote:
Pretty sure power level is going to work exactly like the system in AoS, which is a simpler points system

Well the AoS simple point system seems somewhat balanced, a comparison of the power level system so far from what we have seen is very broken if done the AoS. 11 powerlevel for 10x kitted out rubric marines, 16 for that kitted out Leviathan Dreadnought. System broken already.

Do you know how well those Rubrics murder infantry?

They're not meant to take on a massive dreadnought. We also have nothing on weapon costs, which power level cares nothing about.

The point is that even tho they murder infantry, do you think they murder stuff better then the leviathan dread? He murders everything and barely cost more in power level.

Not really. His guns are powerful, but they're all relatively low number of shots but high damage. Damage doesn't carry over models, so those big guns are going to kill ~5 Marines really dead. Rubric Marines with Soulreaper Cannons or Warpflamers are going to kill more 1 wound models because they just have more shots, period. Damage 3 doesn't mean anything against infantry.

Don't tell Terminators and Primaris Marines that.

Also worth noting that as a big single unit, it's far, far more susceptible to multi-damage weapons than the Rubrics. A Meltagun kills, at most, one Rubric. A Meltagun can deal nearly half the Leviathan's wounds in one go, two can cripple it into near uselessness thanks to the damage chart.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Coyote81 wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:

Vorian wrote:
Pretty sure power level is going to work exactly like the system in AoS, which is a simpler points system

Well the AoS simple point system seems somewhat balanced, a comparison of the power level system so far from what we have seen is very broken if done the AoS. 11 powerlevel for 10x kitted out rubric marines, 16 for that kitted out Leviathan Dreadnought. System broken already.

Do you know how well those Rubrics murder infantry?

They're not meant to take on a massive dreadnought. We also have nothing on weapon costs, which power level cares nothing about.

The point is that even tho they murder infantry, do you think they murder stuff better then the leviathan dread? He murders everything and barely cost more in power level.

He has 2 meltas and 2 flamers. That's it.

13 Rubrics are a bit less PL than the Leviathan.

Rubrics shooting Spesh Muhreens 13 shots, 8.7 hits, 4.3 wounds, 2.9 dead // 5.8 in double tap range Leavianthan 2 shots, 1.7 hits, 1.4 wounds, 1.2 dead 7 hits, 4.7 wounds, 2.3 dead

Leviathan as stock can kill 3.5 marines at 8".
Rubrics can kill 5.8 at 12" and are killing marines way before the dreadnought does.


Rubrics in melee w/ Spesh Muhreens 13 attacks, 8.7 hits, 4.3 wounds, 1.4 dead Leavianthan 5 attacks, 4.2 hits, 3.5 wounds, 2.9

I would hardly call that a massive advantage after those shooting numbers.

Bring the right tool for the job.

Obviously the biggers guns make the dreadnought way better, but we have no idea what the points cost for those will be. Power Levels give NO consideration to selected options and they aren't meant to.

Do you only care about the damage output of things, that leviathan has numerous other advantages, toughness, mobility. And the point isn't stock versions, since we are talking about power level, you equip them however you want. The fact that you can give him the 2d3 mortal wounds weapon, or the D3 that gets extra D3 for every 5 in a unit. These are massively dangerous to many types of units.

gungo wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

gungo wrote:
Sounds like match play still uses the book missions with very little change. Which imho is horrible for balance purposes. The current core book maerlstrom and war missions are horribly biased toward elite mobile armies such as eldar. Which is why nearly every tournament creates thier own multi tiered mission primer with several objectives. If the core missions are still simply get the objective, or kill point or relic there was a huge reason why jetbikes warp spiders etc and hard to kill fast units dominated 7th

This is balanced by non elite armies now being better at controlling the objectives. Like in AoS, you now control the point if you have more models than the enemy near it.
If you have an IK on the point and i have 2 hormagaunst, i control the point.

Is that how obj secured or whatever it's called works in 8th I don't recall seeing that furthermore this still doesn't dolce the issue which made mobility huge in 7th missions or his kil points favored elite small armies. If I pull up a marlstrom card for an objective halfway across the board with no units close enough it still doesn't alleviate the issue of mobility. It's not a massive issue with match play but I can garauntee most tournaments will just create thier own mission primer

If you haven't played AoS, you don't know that each mission has different ways to capture objectives. For instance, some of them are have more models than the opponent, which favors horde armies and makes small elite units not optimal. Another is only Heroes (Characters) can capture objectives. Still another is that you need at least 5 models and no enemy models to capture it.

If we see similar things to that, those 3 man Jetbike or SM Bike units aren't going to capture anything.

 oni wrote:
So reading that Only War mission... The way it's worded implies that there are two or more mission objectives, but I don't see any 'secondary objectives' listed. I also don't see why it's necessary to to award 6 VP's for Ancient Relic - it's an all or nothing mission objective if there are no secondary objectives.

True but Only War is essentially the basic mission for Open Play. Narrative and Matched play look to have missions with considerably more elements to them.

WAAAARRRG

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/25/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-orks/

 Coyote81 wrote:

Do you only care about the damage output of things, that leviathan has numerous other advantages, toughness, mobility. And the point isn't stock versions, since we are talking about power level, you equip them however you want. The fact that you can give him the 2d3 mortal wounds weapon, or the D3 that gets extra D3 for every 5 in a unit. These are massively dangerous to many types of units.

8" move (at most, less once damaged) and the inability to get into vehicles is mobile to you? We have very different ideas of mobility.

The toughness seems like an advantage until something lays into it with multi-damage weaponry, which is less effective against units and more effective against things like the Leviathan. Again, Meltaguns and Lascannons can cut down that Leviathan in a turn, while they'll only be removing at most one Rubric at a time.

I get that you just want to complain about things being broken but it's clearly not.

 Coyote81 wrote:

Do you only care about the damage output of things, that leviathan has numerous other advantages, toughness, mobility. And the point isn't stock versions, since we are talking about power level, you equip them however you want. The fact that you can give him the 2d3 mortal wounds weapon, or the D3 that gets extra D3 for every 5 in a unit. These are massively dangerous to many types of units.

No, but the rubrics also carry a 4+ ward and have 13 wounds to the leviathans 14. They also can get a 2+ save against many things that want to hurt them.

And again, power level doesn't care about options. Points will. It is irrelevant to put the biggest gun on something and then compare PL.

The reason for the 6 points is for tournaments.

Game 1:
Player 1 vs Player 2 = 10 pts to 7 pts
Player 3 vs Player 4 = 12 pts to 3 pts
Player 5 vs Player 6 = 15 pts to 0 pts

Game 2 (One war)
Player 5 vs Player 3 = 0 pts to 6pts
Player 1 vs Player 4 = 6 pts to 0 pts
Player 2 vs Player 6 = 0 pts to 6 pts

Standings at end of 2 games:
Player 1:16pts
Player 2: 7pts
Player 3:18pts
Player 4: 3pts
Player 5:15pts
Player 6: 6pts

Going into game three, you can see the standings are really adjusted by that 6pt game.

LOL! Leadership 30 boys are thing guys!

Da Jump sounds particularly naughty...

and they confer it to nearby units!

 Latro_ wrote:
ORKS UP

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/25/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-orks/

From the sounds of it they've fixed all of Ork's major issues


- Only formerly AP4 and better ignores their armour now
- enhanced survivability if stacking Painboy and Mek
- More killy in combat
- Much much faster if taking a warboss
- Morale no longer an issue
- 4th Ed MOB RULE with no Ld10 cap.

Nobs 3 wounds
LD is the size of the unit...

it helps, left a bit 'meh' by this one

I can safely day that the Orks sound better than they used to. Layered morale buffs, Mob Rule going back to letting you use the unit size for morale (and the stat isn't capped at ten anymore), and units being able to share morale sounds good. Da Jump sounds great and make Weirdboyz a lot more useful (and emulates their role in some recent video games like Space Marine).

Choppas basically getting the chainsword treatment isn't a shock, but three wound Manz is. Sure a Lascannon can still potentially turbo kill them, but we can see some things to help mitigate that and keep them alive.

Big choppas look reasonably uselful which is nice, especially in Match Play where you might want to take them for their lower points cost.

Basically the changes look good, and I it looks like Orks have potential to be a balanced army again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Latro_ wrote:
Nobs 3 wounds
LD is the size of the unit...

it helps, left a bit 'meh' by this one

Manz have three wounds. Nobz will probably have 2.

And the morale one is better since you can benefit from another unit nearby.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
ORKS UP

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/25/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-orks/

From the sounds of it they've fixed all of Ork's major issues


- Only formerly AP4 and better ignores their armour now
- enhanced survivability if stacking Painboy and Mek
- More killy in combat
- Much much faster if taking a warboss
- Morale no longer an issue
- 4th Ed MOB RULE with no Ld10 cap.

No painboy and mek is now worse its currently 5+ inv and 5+ fnp
Now its 5+ inv and 6+ ignore the wound.

Looks like they have the same attacks in combat

No faster if taking a warboss, a warrghh in the current book lets you run and charge

LD is the best bit.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Choppas basically getting the chainsword treatment isn't a shock, but three wound Manz is. Sure a Lascannon can still potentially turbo kill them, but we can see some things to help mitigate that and keep them alive.

That forces them to shoot a lascannon at a MANZ instead of a Battlewagon or M/G/Naut.

Lord Kragan wrote:
LOL! Leadership 30 boys are thing guys!

Which is awesome as it means a full sized 30 Boyz squad needs to lose 13 models in order to worry about the new morale (as killing 12 and rolling 6 would be 18, which kills none of the 18 remaining). Plus, even killing 13 or 15, your Warbosses and Nobs can keep da Boyz in line. As well. AND this all assumes that you wont have ANOTHER 30 boyz next to them to provide Ld30 anyway.

Its looking like this edition is the horde edition. The new objectives capturing as well seems to support this.

Primaris Ancient.

I thought these were newly made Marines.
Ancient?

uh?

Old mob rule, plus warboss giving D3 kills generating fearless sounds really nice.

Nothing too shocking (except 3 wound meganobz--take THAT terminators!)

Sounds like a solid update. It all hinges on the points.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
ORKS UP

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/25/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-orks/

From the sounds of it they've fixed all of Ork's major issues


- Only formerly AP4 and better ignores their armour now
- enhanced survivability if stacking Painboy and Mek
- More killy in combat
- Much much faster if taking a warboss
- Morale no longer an issue
- 4th Ed MOB RULE with no Ld10 cap.

Some issues still exist
Mobility is huge as I've stated prior and unless thier base movement goes up boy squads are extremely slow the ability to move run and charge when near 6" of a warboss is actually worse than last ed which was the entire army. Look at greentide as an example it was already fearless and move run and charge each turn and had a perma 5+ fnp.
Truck boys are kinda counter intuitive to mob rules with a 12 model cap. I just don't see huge changes.
However nob bikers sound legit.
Manz look good but took a hit w manz missiles using trucks since they get wrecked on a 1. Maybe battlewagons or FW vehicles would be better.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Primaris Ancient.

I thought these were newly made Marines.
Ancient?

uh?

It's a fething title.

edit.

From Gav Thorpe:

(Bonus factoid - Ian Pickstock named the first 'Ancient' in print - Ancient Helveticus in Codex: Ultramarines - after the typeface he was using to write the character's background, itself derived from the Latin name of Switzerland.)

EDIT - if the factoid didn't give it away, I know that an Ancient is a standard bearer, I was sat next to Ian when he came up with the title.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Primaris Ancient.

I thought these were newly made Marines.
Ancient?

uh?

It's an old term used for standard bearers, don't quote me but I think it was in Roman days

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Primaris Ancient.

I thought these were newly made Marines.
Ancient?

uh?

Probably a seasoned (aka 400+ year) Space Marine Hero who has been "upgraded" to Primaris.

Orks are sounding suitably resilient now.

Battleshock is more a concern for them in the late game, when they've taken casualties over a number of turns.

But between Mob Rule, Warboss Beatings*, and a Nobz Kickings they're going to be really difficult to shift. A disastrous roll can be mitigated to a maximum of three Boyz legging it, and there's a chance the Nob might keep at least one of them in the fight.

Very, very nice I think.

Primaris Ancient - the Ancient is an honorific.

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Primaris Ancient.

I thought these were newly made Marines.
Ancient?

uh?

It's an old term used for standard bearers, don't quote me but I think it was in Roman days

It is indeed both the title used for SMs and Romans.

 Latro_ wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
ORKS UP

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/25/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-orks/

From the sounds of it they've fixed all of Ork's major issues


- Only formerly AP4 and better ignores their armour now
- enhanced survivability if stacking Painboy and Mek
- More killy in combat
- Much much faster if taking a warboss
- Morale no longer an issue
- 4th Ed MOB RULE with no Ld10 cap.

No painboy and mek is now worse its currently 5+ inv and 5+ fnp
Now its 5+ inv and 6+ ignore the wound.

Looks like they have the same attacks in combat

No faster if taking a warboss, a warrghh in the current book lets you run and charge

LD is the best bit.

FNP is going to be much rarer, and has it been discussed yet if "FNP" rolls are made against the To Wound roll (so can potentially negate all D6 Dmg?) or against individual wounds (so can save 2 wounds but the other 4 from the lascannon get through)?

Same attacks but combat rules are better and favour the Orks now, due to the Ld and larger units.

The army is also faster due to Da Jump. Not entirely reliable, but plonking 10" away, then advancing then charging with rerollable change range? Glorious

I'd heavily assume it's use -base- leadership of a nearby unit, ie standing near Nobz or a character buffs you even if you only have 5 boys left. Wait for the actual wording on that one.

 Latro_ wrote:
Nobs 3 wounds
LD is the size of the unit...

it helps, left a bit 'meh' by this one

You are forgetting that the 30 strong boys unit confers its mob rule to the 3 strong meganobs

And again, power level doesn't care about options. Points will. It is irrelevant to put the biggest gun on something and then compare PL.

They explicitly said that Power Level considers taking the most powerful options. Not doesn't care about options.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Primaris Ancient.

I thought these were newly made Marines.
Ancient?

uh?

Perhaps the Ancients are upgraded vets?