Blood Angels 8th Tactica - For Sanguinius

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**Melissia**

Yeah, boltgun and chainsword on DC is pretty solid.

**p5freak**

Martel732 wrote:
Against DG, I find Stalkers very handy. Many of my 2K lists have a Stalker now.

A stalker ? I didnt know DG have so many FLY units. T8 is nice, but 6 shots autocannon hitting on 4s against non FLY, and 5s when you moved ? No. I would rather use a vindicator. Or a dread with twin autocannons.

**Melissia**

I would think a Baal flamestorm with heavy flamers would be better than a stalker through sheer number of automatic hits (a third of which are S6), but I admittedly have only seen the flamestorm used, not used it myself.

**p5freak**

Do you really want your tank within 8" of the enemy ? Within half melta range ? Within charge range ? No. I dont. Flamer baal preds are very bad. Even twin AC baal preds are bad. A twin AC razorback can do the same for less pts. and can transport 6 models as well.

**Melissia**

p5freak wrote:
Do you really want your tank within 8" of the enemy ? Within half melta range ?

I'll be honest here, outside of the one player who still sticks with sisters of battle, I don't really see melta enough for this to be a consideration. But if the enemy charges you after you shoot, you basically get to shoot twice in one turn since your flame weapons automatically hit, which can do a LOT of damage.

**Martel732**

p5freak wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Against DG, I find Stalkers very handy. Many of my 2K lists have a Stalker now.

A stalker ? I didnt know DG have so many FLY units. T8 is nice, but 6 shots autocannon hitting on 4s against non FLY, and 5s when you moved ? No. I would rather use a vindicator. Or a dread with twin autocannons.

Bloat drones and demon princes are reason enough. And those bug cavalry things. Also, i always field tac lists.

**p5freak**

Melissia wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Do you really want your tank within 8" of the enemy ? Within half melta range ?
I'll be honest here, outside of the one player who still sticks with sisters of battle, I don't really see melta enough for this to be a consideration. But if the enemy charges you after you shoot, you basically get to shoot twice in one turn since your flame weapons automatically hit, which can do a LOT of damage.

How do you overwatch with your flamers if he charges you from 8,1" away ? If he charges with a T5+ unit he will get a warm fuzzy feeling from your flamers, that's all. Flamers are ridiculous. It's ok if infantry hand flamers and normal flamers have 8" range, but heavy flamers and flamers on tanks should have more range.

**Melissia**

p5freak wrote:
How do you overwatch with your flamers if he charges you from 8,1" away?

Why are you 8.1" away from them to begin with? When positioning your tank for firing, you should bear in mind the fact that it will get shot and/or charged afterwards. You may actually want to get closer to the target than absolutely necessary, in order to ensure you can overwatch a different unit that tries to charge.

**Xirax**

When my kids go to bed.. We'll have a go at the rematch..

I agree that Baal pred especially with the flamers are really bad in this ed. DG flamers are way better. Against those drones and DP that stalker could prove valuable sure, 50€ eww, but what the heck..

I only got 5CP to use during the game (after DVotS) so no DoA? Trust the angel's wing reroll.. use forlon's fury to move DC towards bloat-drone to get a shot at with inferno pistols.. I know two ain't much, but had only two painted..

Anyways..

Spoiler:

So should I try to beat the initial DG list or give the below list for my opponent to field? Just suggest and I'll play and make a quick rep.. Suggest tactical efforts, I'll try.. The below list has imho even more cheese in form of DP, 2x bloat-drone, PBC flamer spam..

Mission will be either Ascension or front-line warfare.

Spoiler:

**p5freak**

Melissia wrote:
p5freak wrote:
How do you overwatch with your flamers if he charges you from 8,1" away?
Why are you 8.1" away from them to begin with? When positioning your tank for firing, you should bear in mind the fact that it will get shot and/or charged afterwards. You may actually want to get closer to the target than absolutely necessary, in order to ensure you can overwatch a different unit that tries to charge.

A smart opponent will remove models who died from your flamer attacks from the front, models who were the closest to your tank. Then he will position his units 8.1" away from your tank in his movement phase, shoot it in the shooting phase, and charge it in the charge phase. Your 54 pts. of ridiculously overpriced short ranged flamers will get no overwatch.

**sossen**

p5freak wrote:
Melissia wrote:
p5freak wrote:
How do you overwatch with your flamers if he charges you from 8,1" away?
Why are you 8.1" away from them to begin with? When positioning your tank for firing, you should bear in mind the fact that it will get shot and/or charged afterwards. You may actually want to get closer to the target than absolutely necessary, in order to ensure you can overwatch a different unit that tries to charge.

A smart opponent will remove models who died from your flamer attacks from the front, models who were the closest to your tank. Then he will position his units 8.1" away from your tank in his movement phase, shoot it in the shooting phase, and charge it in the charge phase. Your 54 pts. of ridiculously overpriced short ranged flamers will get no overwatch.

An 8" charge with no modifiers or rerolls is only happening 4/10 times. So I would be pretty happy if my opponent tried something like that. Even with a reroll that is a risky move.

**Tiberius501**

Hey guys, was wandering what you thought of this list:

HQ
- Lemartes
- Sanguinary Priest w/ jump pack
- The Sanguinor (warlord)
TROOP
- 5x scouts
- 5x scouts
- 10x tacticals w/ melta, Multi-melta, combi-melta (yeah I know)
- 10x Tacticals w/ plasma gun, plasma cannon, combi-plasma
ELITES
- Sanguinary Anceint w/ Standard of Sacrifice
- 8x Sanguinary Guard w/ swords
- 10x Vanguard w/ 4x Shield and chainsword, 5x chainsword and power sword, sergeant w/ duel chainswords, jump packs
- 10x Death Company w/ bolters and chainswords, jump packs
FLIER
- Stormraven w/ Las cannons, Stormstrike missiles and typhoon missile launcher

This makes up a battalion and Vanguard Detachment

**Cephalobeard**

So, Blood Angels Reivers became a subject of discussion for me and a buddy this morning.

A squad of 5 is 90pts and does 16 S4 attacks with +1 to wound, due to Red Thirst.

That... Doesn't seem terrible at first glance. Has anyone given them more thought? Or does SG just outclass them entirely?

**Martel732**

Reivers are great bullies, imo. They are also a cheap elites.

**Xirax**

Dunno if you really are into this 1k duel, but here's the situation before sauna. Deployments done and DG got +1 for going first.. Those rolls after sauna. I'll spam you more about how the fight went laters.. I hope my sons of Sanguinius will get justice! Keep your fingers crossed..

Spoiler:

**Melissia**

I gotta say, nice use of terrain.

**NH Gunsmith**

Well, after about a dozen games with my Scouts, I find myself wishing that both squads had Bolters instead of pistols & blades.

Been using them mainly to shut down close range deep strikers from getting near my back field gunline and camping objectives, so they almost always end up out of pistol range, or just in pistol range, making charges not worth it.

Anybody else feel the same way?

Also, got in a game against the new Tau Codex today. We played a 1,500 point Maelstrom game and when he conceded it was 13 victory points to 3. The Death Company managed to alpha his Riptide off the board, it is beginning to feel like any more than 3 Power Fists or Thunder Hammers is overkill in that squad. I have been running mine with 3 Power Fists and Bolters, and the rest with Chainsword and Bolter... They are insanely lethal. My Angel's Wing Librarian is still public enemy #1 at the store, anytime you can shut down Tau overwatch shots is an absolute win.

I haven't been using Slamguinius since the utility of the Librarian is just incredible, even though he has little damage output and Lemartes has failed all but 2 charges from deep strike. Those 10 Death Company, Lemartes and the Librarian are great at giving my gunline room to breathe and plow shots from the 3 Devastator squads into an opponents army.

Is Slamguinius still the go-to guy to strap The Angel's Wing onto? And how have you guys been using your Librarians?

**Eihnlazer**

Actually ive had some success with the Ghetto slamtenant lately.

Paired with lemartes it makes the DC absolutely lethal.

He looses an attack, a wound and an invun save for only 30 point discount, but the reroll 1's to wound stacks better with lemartes to make your alpha stronger. Giving him the wings would be fine as you don't really need it on the slam captain (he can take most any overwatch cept for tau).

**sossen**

Scouts are great at zoning out opposing deepstrikers, grabbing midfield objectives and acting as a roadblock. If your army has a significant firebase then employing your scouts in the above roles is preferrable and in those roles they are better off using bolters. I don't find that I need to zone out opposing deepstrikers since my army doesn't have much of a firebase. Instead I use my scouts to threaten turn one charges and guarantee space for my own deepstrikers, with those roles in mind the CC weapons or shotguns generally do better.

**NH Gunsmith**

I getcha. Yeah my standard firebase is;

-Captain w/ Storm Bolter & Power Sword
-LT w/ MC Bolter & Chainsword
-Company Ancient w/ Boltgun, Standard of Sacrifice
-3x 5 man Dev Squads w/ 3x Missile Launcher & Cherub
-Twin Assault Cannon Razorback
-Sanguinary Novitiate (if points allow it)

Protecting those money makers is pretty essential, since they are the anvil to the Death Company's hammer.

**p5freak**

I'm going to play against my friends necrons in two weeks (1,5k game). I have a pretty good idea what i will encounter, because i know his army. Their new codex is coming out soon. What worries me are the wraiths. They are going to be 55 pts. per model. I except 3-6 of them. They have M12, WS/BS3, T5, S6, W3, A3, Sv4+ and 3++. Their vicious claws are S6, AP-2, D2. They can ignore models and terrain. They can charge and shoot after falling back. I dont see any counter to those. Heavy bolters will wound them on 4s, but only do 1 wound. I have two contemptor mortis dreads with twin assault cannons each. They would work, but they are supposed to shoot his vehicles. Any CC units we have with only T4 will stand no chance against the wraiths. I can stop them for one round in CC, but they can fallback over my units, into my gunline, and still charge my tanks/dreads. Captn slammy and meph seem to be the only choice.

**Eihnlazer**

wraiths are no problem for DC. Throwing large numbers of wounds on a unit is always an effective way of killing it.

15 bolter chainsword DC with lemartes reroll will kill about 3 wraiths by themselves on average.

granted there are probably better targets (warrior blob or immortals).

**p5freak**

Sure, DC can pretty much kill anything, but i didnt plan to use DC this time. A 15 model DC unit is vulnerable to morale losses. Even with lemartes and his LD 9. Once they are on battlefield and kill some wraith, the wraith will fallback, my friend will focus fire the DC, and probably charge them again with the remaining wraith. Killing 8-9 DC is enough to force morale losses. 3-4 remaining models dont justify spending 2CP. And they only have LD 9 when lemartes is within 6".

**Xirax**

I think that wraiths are foetid bloat-drones baby cousins.. what works on bloat-drones, will work on wraiths..

I think I'll go back to 10man DC with 3 fists all boltguns, 7 chainswords. Unless points there for hammers.. Never thought that BA might benefit from a company ancient, will have to check on that, because in the last nights game I really needed more anti-tank and I think I failed like 9/14 LC shots from a razorback..

Here's a quick rep from my last nights game, if some one is interested. I was 100% sure of the game out come after T2.. but feel free to entertain yourself if interested..

So this is how the last nights game went..

Spoiler:

**Eihnlazer**

As I said, I would probably charge other targets and forget the wraiths. They don't do enough damage by themselves to cripple your army. Only kill them with DC if you can also keep yourself out of rapid fire from other stuff.

you should be in range of the buff from lemartes anyway so the LD isnt a problem.

Honestly, wraiths arent a big issue unless you let them charge your characters or sang guard.

**Tiberius501**

Are DC dreadnaughts actually valid? Mine got wrecked by a Space Wolf leader the other day because the 3++ saved him and then he just poked my Dread with his thinderhammer and he sighed into non existence. What sort of units should he be taking on? Vehicles?

**Xirax**

Have you tried the libby dread with wings and quickening, artisan of war on his halberd is murder, but in more comp play he needs a supporting shield of sang caster.. But like all BA dreads, they are fun and brutal in friendly environment, but not that comp. I could see me taking one if I ran stormraven and would use it against threats than can't outperform him in melee. Mobile roadblock/shoot elite removal..

@NH gunsmith.. I feel you on your scout comment.

**Tiberius501**

Xirax wrote:
Have you tried the libby dread with wings and quickening, artisan of war on his halberd is murder, but in more comp play he needs a supporting shield of sang caster.. But like all BA dreads, they are fun and brutal in friendly environment, but not that comp. I could see me taking one if I ran stormraven and would use it against threats than can't outperform him in melee. Mobile roadblock/shoot elite removal..

@NH gunsmith.. I feel you on your scout comment.

Yeah I tried one of them in the same army who also got blocked by storm shields and also got wrecked by a Space Wolf hero. Though he one manned the Space Wolf flier in the turn before that which was pretty sweet

EDIT: also, random question, what's a grav squad like these days? Grav guns/cannons worth taking? Plasma always seems better but without the risk of blowing yourself up maybe grav has some reason? Or is it like a multi-melta to a las cannon?

**Karhedron**

NH Gunsmith wrote:
Well, after about a dozen games with my Scouts, I find myself wishing that both squads had Bolters instead of pistols & blades.

Been using them mainly to shut down close range deep strikers from getting near my back field gunline and camping objectives, so they almost always end up out of pistol range, or just in pistol range, making charges not worth it.

Anybody else feel the same way?

I have been really happy with my CCW Scouts so far (only played a few games with the new Dex so far). I tend to deploy them forward to deter deep strikers or secure early objectives (depending on whether I am playing eternal war or Maelstrom). OLnce the game is in progress, I often move my Intercessors or Tacs forward to take objectives which leaves the Scouts free to advance and potentially get into CC. So far they have tackled Kroot, Orks and even Bloodletters with satisfactory results.

Having said that, I haven't yet had a game where I wanted to keep them stationary.

NH Gunsmith wrote:

Is Slamguinius still the go-to guy to strap The Angel's Wing onto? And how have you guys been using your Librarians?

I have usually been running Slamguinius with Mephiston doing psychic duty. A jump Libby with Wing looks good on paper but Slamguinius just looks better to me for the points.

In my last game, Slamgiunius soloed a Bloodthirster (with the 4++/6+++ Warlord trait) on Turn 1. There are times when I would have appreciated the flexibility of a Libby more (my last battle against Tau springs to mind) but in a TAC list, I think Slamgiunius's great value is the ability to act as a spoiler for even the most powerful LOWs. Having a 129 point model that can delete a 300+ point model in one go is incredibly powerful and can really mess with opponents who are relying on a big heavy-hitter to go through your elite MEQs.

**p5freak**

Eihnlazer wrote:
As I said, I would probably charge other targets and forget the wraiths. They don't do enough damage by themselves to cripple your army. Only kill them with DC if you can also keep yourself out of rapid fire from other stuff.

you should be in range of the buff from lemartes anyway so the LD isnt a problem.

Honestly, wraiths arent a big issue unless you let them charge your characters or sang guard.

I think you underestimate them. They received an upgrade with the new codex. They dont have to kill my tanks/dreads, all they have to do is tie them up in melee, and they cant shoot anymore.