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2010/11/04 13:53:03
Subject: Re:Black library news and rumours (including Horus Heresy stuff)...
Flachzange wrote:Any thought from you guys on Aenarion (high elf audio book)?
Spoiler:
Overall, I think it was a solid story. So, why would Chaos really try to keep Aenarion from picking up the Widowmaker. Are the deities afraid of it? Theyre basically telling the truth when they say that taking possession of it, would seal the elves doom (which it does). But why would they mind? Maybe I should listen to it again. May have missed some details there.
The one thing I really didnt like was the talking dragon.
Talking dragons has always been a staple of Fantasy universes.
Dragons aren't just stupid beasts that are bred for war, they're highly intelligent creatures which kind of coexist with their riders as a relationship of partners.
Or at least that's how I've always thought of the whole dragon/rider thing for Fantasy.
Overall though, I loved "Aenarion".
2010/11/04 14:04:20
Subject: Black library news and rumours (including Horus Heresy stuff)...
I don't think Dragons were bred for war I thought they were a race that were very warlike and had a sort of symbiotic relationship with the Elves at the time of Aenarion
DC:80S++G+M+B+IPw40k96#-D++A++++/fWD180R+T(T)DM+ Please check out my Wolves: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/333299.page Space Wolves Ragnars Great Company (4000) Ultramarines IV Company (4000) Cadia's Foot your Ass (3000) Khorne's Fluffy Bunnies (2500) Praetorian Titan Legion (3 big angry robots + 1 skinny tech priest) High Elves, Empire, Dark Elves, Brettonians
2010/11/04 14:14:42
Subject: Black library news and rumours (including Horus Heresy stuff)...
There's a Dark Angels book coming out soon, but it's post-Heresy by quite a bit.
I know there have only been TWO DAHH books to date, but given how #2 ended, we're clearly getting a third one...
Speculation. If we were going to have a third one, it'd be coming out with the summer batch given the timeframe.
However, it ended exactly how in the way most of the HH books have.
With an open ending so it links in with the rest of the series.
There will be a third, I would put money on it.
The only thing is the timing - it is set up as one of the latter books of the Heresy, as it could possibly involve writing beyond the end of the siege of terra - when the Dark Angels go home, and the planet goes boom. But in no other books are they nearly close to the siege of terra. So it will be a while before we see anything, unless they fill in the 'in between' so to speak.
2010/11/04 15:31:52
Subject: Black library news and rumours (including Horus Heresy stuff)...
The Dark Angels weren't involved with the Siege of Terra though, and the whole Caliban thing supposedly happened at the same time from what I recall of my timelines.
And I still say it's very, very, very highly unlikely we'll see more with the terrible reception the Dark Angels books had and the constant whining about them having gotten two books(one explaining what caused the rift between Luther and the Lion, the next showing the corruption festering on Caliban).
2010/11/04 15:34:32
Subject: Black library news and rumours (including Horus Heresy stuff)...
They "aren't just stupid beasts that are bred for war".
Dragons were another intelligent race that the Elves encountered, and seemingly bonded with.
Sorry this is what happens when you read at work I missed the n't bit
DC:80S++G+M+B+IPw40k96#-D++A++++/fWD180R+T(T)DM+ Please check out my Wolves: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/333299.page Space Wolves Ragnars Great Company (4000) Ultramarines IV Company (4000) Cadia's Foot your Ass (3000) Khorne's Fluffy Bunnies (2500) Praetorian Titan Legion (3 big angry robots + 1 skinny tech priest) High Elves, Empire, Dark Elves, Brettonians
2010/11/04 15:35:33
Subject: Black library news and rumours (including Horus Heresy stuff)...
There will be at least one more Dark Angels book, Luther was on to something in Fallen Angels and I want to know more about those things on Calliban. Oh and the fall of Calliban is a must for the Horus Heresy, you can hardly refer people to the classic Angels of Darkness, which is (intentionally) pretty vague about what the truth is.
Then again, I'd love to see an Iron Warriors HH novel first, they make for excellent "fall from grace" fodder.
Fatum Iustum Stultorum
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
2010/11/04 16:10:15
Subject: Re:Black library news and rumours (including Horus Heresy stuff)...
Flachzange wrote:Any thought from you guys on Aenarion (high elf audio book)?
Spoiler:
Overall, I think it was a solid story. So, why would Chaos really try to keep Aenarion from picking up the Widowmaker. Are the deities afraid of it? Theyre basically telling the truth when they say that taking possession of it, would seal the elves doom (which it does). But why would they mind? Maybe I should listen to it again. May have missed some details there.
The one thing I really didnt like was the talking dragon.
Talking dragons has always been a staple of Fantasy universes.
Dragons aren't just stupid beasts that are bred for war, they're highly intelligent creatures which kind of coexist with their riders as a relationship of partners.
Or at least that's how I've always thought of the whole dragon/rider thing for Fantasy.
Overall though, I loved "Aenarion".
Dont get me wrong, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. However, I dont recall any Warhammer fluff were Dragons were chatting at all. Thats why it felt out of place to me.
2010/11/04 16:18:58
Subject: Black library news and rumours (including Horus Heresy stuff)...
We've never really had much fluff on the interaction between dragons and their riders though.
And it's entirely possible that the dragons that the High Elves use are "different" considering that they're uncorrupted unlike the Black Dragons(being "magically twisted" versions of the High Elves' dragons) and Chaos Dragons(being those corrupted by the touch of Chaos, etc).
2010/11/04 19:05:24
Subject: Black library news and rumours (including Horus Heresy stuff)...
Kanluwen wrote:The Dark Angels weren't involved with the Siege of Terra though, and the whole Caliban thing supposedly happened at the same time from what I recall of my timelines.
The DA were intercepted by the Night Lords on their way to Terra. They held them up long enough to stop them from getting to Terra before the seige. Originally they hinted it was because the DA, SW, and Ultramarines were finally on their way that caused Horus to drop his shields and face the Emperor.
After the seige and the Emperor was setup for his eternal dump, they went back to Caliban and that's when everything went wrong.
I think we'll see a little bit of a revision/retcon on how things went down, but a third novel wouldn't be unwarranted. Maybe it could even redeem the other two books. Or, more preferably, we could get a short story in a post-HH anthology.
*edit*
Hey, maybe ADB could tie in that part of the story to a HH Night Lords book. Please?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/04 19:08:48
2010/11/04 21:31:37
Subject: Black library news and rumours (including Horus Heresy stuff)...
Kanluwen wrote:We've never really had much fluff on the interaction between dragons and their riders though.
Thats my point
Kanluwen wrote:
And it's entirely possible that the dragons that the High Elves use are "different" considering that they're uncorrupted unlike the Black Dragons(being "magically twisted" versions of the High Elves' dragons) and Chaos Dragons(being those corrupted by the touch of Chaos, etc).
I actually always believed that the communication between dragon and elf was on a magical basis anyways.
2010/11/05 04:19:06
Subject: Re:Black library news and rumours (including Horus Heresy stuff)...
Just finished 1st Heretic and found it to be a good read. Nothing really ground breaking if you ask me though.
The black rage is within us all. Lies offer no shield against the inevitable. You speak of donning the black of duty for the red of brotherhood; but it is the black of rage you shall wear when the darkness comes for you.
2010/11/05 13:34:02
Subject: Re:Black library news and rumours (including Horus Heresy stuff)...
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2010/11/05 14:17:24
Subject: Re:Black library news and rumours (including Horus Heresy stuff)...
Kanluwen wrote:The Dark Angels weren't involved with the Siege of Terra though, and the whole Caliban thing supposedly happened at the same time from what I recall of my timelines.
The DA were intercepted by the Night Lords on their way to Terra. They held them up long enough to stop them from getting to Terra before the seige. Originally they hinted it was because the DA, SW, and Ultramarines were finally on their way that caused Horus to drop his shields and face the Emperor.
After the seige and the Emperor was setup for his eternal dump, they went back to Caliban and that's when everything went wrong.
I think we'll see a little bit of a revision/retcon on how things went down, but a third novel wouldn't be unwarranted. Maybe it could even redeem the other two books. Or, more preferably, we could get a short story in a post-HH anthology.
*edit*
Hey, maybe ADB could tie in that part of the story to a HH Night Lords book. Please?
ADB has a NL vs. DA story in the anthology next year. Over on the DA board on the BandC he has had some interesting things to say about the Lion and writing the DA(or not).
2010/11/05 17:11:19
Subject: Black library news and rumours (including Horus Heresy stuff)...
Some Other Poster wrote:4. In the same vision section, the demon shows Argel Tal visions of some of the infant primarchs arriving on their new worlds. Tal does not know why he is only shown some, but based on the descriptions, it's because they are the 9 Primarchs that will turn to Chaos. However, there are 10 visions. The first description is of the infant Lion arriving on Caliban! We can only surmise that the Chaos Gods had planned on the Lion turning to Chaos too.
I can help shed some light on this, but yeah, that's the clearest explanation. Essentially, I envisage Caliban is a fairly tainted world, so the Chaos Gods have their talons into the Lion from the start - they bring him down onto Caliban, after all: a world plagued by Great Beasts and not exactly a million miles from the newborn Eye of Terror. He's one of the most obvious choices for corruption.
However, I don't subscribe to the notion that the Lion was tainted (or a traitor) himself. As he grew up, he was everything the Emperor needed him to be, sure. This vision represents right at the beginning, there was the potential for it all to go wrong. The Chaos Gods probably planned or hoped it would, but history evidently proved them wrong.
Of all the primarchs, I think the Lion needs to be credited with an almost unbelievable amount of willpower, even moreso than most of his brothers. He strikes me as one of the ones that Chaos could've dug their talons into very easily, but he apparently never suffered their touch at all.
#10
Spoiler:
A D-B wrote:
[quote name=Some Other Poster]If I remember correctly, you have a Nightlords vs DA short story in next year's HH anthology. Any more DA related shockers planned?
I'm actually finishing that this week. It's set at the outbreak of the Age of Darkness, when the Night Lords and Dark Angels clash over the Thramas and Heraldor sectors. There're a few things I wanted to mention in it, but it's a short story so space is at a premium. I almost regretted pitching a First Legion story because at this point - and forgive my personal opinion, here - the Dark Angels in the Horus Heresy are something of a poisoned chalice.
While they're one of the most popular Chapters in 40K (which comes with guarantees of sales as well as other benefits - even mediocre stories about "beloved" factions in a license are generally seen pretty favourably, unless the writer strictly breaks the faction's themes), they've had two novels now. A lot of their storyline is set in stone, a lot of their interesting development (Caliban, the knightly orders, the primarch's youth) is already done, and Writer X may not necessarily enjoy how Writer Z did all that stuff in the past. Yet he or she will be bound to all that stuff, and their work will be associated with what came before. F'rex, "Oh, another Dark Angels novel, I didn't like the first one/two" or "Oh, who is this tool doing the new Dark Angel novel, I wish X or Y was doing it instead."
In this story, I wanted to sneak in a few flashbacks to Caliban, as well as some of the Dark Angel's rituals of knighthood. They're not exactly revelations, but they should be something we've not really seen before.
#17
Spoiler:
A D-B wrote:
Some Other Poster wrote:I can also understand the poisoned chalice metaphor. There's very little wiggle room at this point for anything up until the fall of Caliban itself, and its ultimate destruction. Hopefully at some point someone takes up that task, but that'll be quite a task as the main confrontation takes place after the battle of Terra. Sort of a Horus Heresy anti-climax at that point. The only way I could see another DA novel before the battle for Terra is written would be to tackle just the fall of Caliban and the intervening years, but that may be a little bit of greedy thinking. Maybe in the Scouring (or harrowing, or whatever) if you guys still decide to tackle those years, the destruction of Caliban and "death" of the Lion.
That would be killer. Some of the best stuff for several Legions and primarchs happens after the Heresy, so a Scouring series would be mega. The Dark Angels still have a lot of heft in the Heresy itself - it's several long years of galactic civil war before the Siege, and the Dark Angels are one of the last loyal Legions actually stuck out there in the void and having to deal with it all. There's a lot of pathos in their situation, and some great stories to tell. I just wonder if and when they'll get told, that's all. Like I said: poisoned chalice, etc.
For the record, that's not to disparage Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels. If you have to follow in someone's footsteps, it's all about choosing your battles and treading with care. And it seems that in many ways the Dark Angels' stage is now set, for better or worse. Anything I'd have done would take them in a much different direction, with completely new characters. That's much easier to get away with in a short story, natch - so that's why I'm doing it sneaky-like.
But in the Scouring, hell yes, there's a lot that could go on.
2010/11/06 00:41:30
Subject: Black library news and rumours (including Horus Heresy stuff)...
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2010/11/06 03:18:28
Subject: Black library news and rumours (including Horus Heresy stuff)...
Best read in order really, there's a lot of nice, subtle hints between many of the books which you wouldn't notice otherwise and the first 4 at-least are chronological.
Almost all of the novels are worth reading IMHO. The only one I would say you really, definitely, full-stop-don't need to get is Battle For The Abyss.
Nemisis, Eisenstein, Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels are fairly hit or miss/ all or nothing books, in that it really varies between people.
I'd definitely advise the first 3, Legion, A Thousand Sons, Mechanicum and Fulgrim at the least. Tales of heresy is also quite enjoyable and has a mixture of its good and its bad.
I've not finished The First Heretic yet but so far it's great! Great!!
But yeah, if you can, read them in order, but it doesn't matter a huge amount outside of the first 3...
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2010/11/06 07:05:21
Subject: Black library news and rumours (including Horus Heresy stuff)...
You also might want to read Abnett's "Titanicus" right before you read "Mechanicus". Not an HH book, but seeing the later Mechanicus shows you a new level of detail for the familiar machine cult- and then "Mechanicus" shows you where many of those details came from in a really, really cool way. Watch for stuff like "haptic command" and mind-impulse units, etc. evolving backwards.
And yeah, definitely start with the first 3. Eisenstein is probably also important because there's a lot of details that will get riffed on later in the series it seems... even if the writing isn't stellar. In fact, if you want to catch all the details you might just want to read them all regardless of reviews. Even Battle for the Abyss isn't as bad as, say, any of the new Star Wars movies.
Oh, and do watch out: after reading the better HH books your appreciation for other 40K novels may be diminished. After the appreciating revelations about the Alpha Legion in "Legion" some time ago, I made the mistake of picking up "The Hunt for Voldorius". Suffice to say that "Voldorius" has poorer writing, ignores the character of the Alphas that the HH books invented, and was generally fail. Found myself barely turning the pages while waiting for "First Heretic".
Speaking of which, can't wait to read that tonight!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/06 07:12:09
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"If you gather 250 consecutive issues of White Dwarf, and burn them atop a pyre of Citadel spray guns, legend has it Gwar will appear and answer a single rules-related question. " -Ouze
2010/11/06 08:38:29
Subject: Black library news and rumours (including Horus Heresy stuff)...
the Dark Angels in the Horus Heresy are something of a poisoned chalice.
While they're one of the most popular Chapters in 40K (which comes with guarantees of sales as well as other benefits - even mediocre stories about "beloved" factions in a license are generally seen pretty favourably, unless the writer strictly breaks the faction's themes), they've had two novels now. A lot of their storyline is set in stone, a lot of their interesting development (Caliban, the knightly orders, the primarch's youth) is already done, and Writer X may not necessarily enjoy how Writer Z did all that stuff in the past. Yet he or she will be bound to all that stuff, and their work will be associated with what came before. F'rex, "Oh, another Dark Angels novel, I didn't like the first one/two" or "Oh, who is this tool doing the new Dark Angel novel, I wish X or Y was doing it instead."
So Goto's writing this?
2010/11/06 14:10:57
Subject: Re:Black library news and rumours (including Horus Heresy stuff)...
Savnock wrote:
Oh, and do watch out: after reading the better HH books your appreciation for other 40K novels may be diminished. After the appreciating revelations about the Alpha Legion in "Legion" some time ago, I made the mistake of picking up "The Hunt for Voldorius". Suffice to say that "Voldorius" has poorer writing, ignores the character of the Alphas that the HH books invented, and was generally fail. Found myself barely turning the pages while waiting for "First Heretic".
Same here, sadly.
I was VERY disappointed with THE HUNT FOR VOLDORIUS, for many of the same reasons listed about.
And on top of that, I wanted more Raven Guard, and less White Scars, so, double whammy!
2010/11/06 17:28:04
Subject: Black library news and rumours (including Horus Heresy stuff)...
I have read various Black Library books before, so yeah I know that they vary from ZOMG! Awesome-sauce...to wow I cannot get past the first page this sucks so bad!
Thanks for the heads up, because there has been some novels that I have wanted to read, especially the Flight of the eisenstein, which that story has always intrigued me as to what happened to those who did not turn to chaos.
