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Brother SRM wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Marines get ATSKNF. CSMs get Ld9. It's the 'balance' between the two. Reducing them to Ld8 kinda kills that.

But then again maybe they'll get their own Leadership rule.

I think it balances out as CSM have more visceral bonuses with things like BP/CCW and access to marks which change their statlines. Loyalist Marines get LD9 almost all the time anyway, since sergeants are mandatory.

Regular Marines do pay a hefty twenty-six points for those sergeants, however. Though fairly comparing choices in different slots is difficult, at 90 points for five Chosen or five Tactical Marines, I know which I'd choose (though five Wolf Guard would, of course, be even better, getting two base attacks for the same points cost). (Presuming Chosen do as rumoured cost eighteen points, maintain their present statline, etc., etc.)

More importantly, a high Leadership characteristic has always (since Slaves to Darkness) been the Traitor Marines' signature, so I'd be saddened were it to disappear.

90pts for 5 Chosen or 5 Tacs is a no-brainer. Scoring units trump every time.

13pts isn't all that cheap compared to guys who come with Combat Tactics, ATSKNF, and Combat Squads built-in. The former two of which are ungodly good in this edition.

I just realized something.. No one has mentioned Aspiring Sorcerers being LD 10 or LD 9.

Interesting.

Will be spreading good luck charms around

I don't think combat squads are anything to scoff at, either. Being able to take two scoring units and split them into four is still pretty useful. Probably more useful for xenos now, thanks to allies, but still.

God dammit I AM SATISFIED!

Have CSM players EVER been satisfied with a codex?

I submit that, as a general group, they have not.

3.5 was kinda the unification point.

Than instead of a nerf to the broken stuff, they gutted everything out for Alessio's planned 4th edition changes (to the bland factor)

So..Bitterness still thrives, rather like CSM towards the Loyalists.

Meh. I just read that the Q&A session had Thousand Sons at 20pts per model.

Tasty has them listed as 23pts.

Could it be that the Q&A guy (if legit) did in fact have an early copy?

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/chaos-model-releases-for-september.html

Another little detail from his secret source/sauce, it says we should be seeing all the new chaos range by the end of Sep. However it doesnt seem that KB may be getting new sculpts just yet :( Ohwell, one less punch to my wallet I guess.

So, two more weeks until pictures? Dammit!

It may not be as long as that. However given that GW are probably in full lockdown mode after the massive leak last week we probably wont be seeign anything until release day

Palindrome wrote:However given that GW are probably in full lockdown mode after the massive leak last week we probably wont be seeign anything until release day

And in order to buy something you'll have to know a guy who knows a guy, and buy it in an unmarked paper bag behind the store. Cash only.

Question:
Most newer dexes seem to include two to three flyers:
Dark eldar, Orks via WD, necrons...
Anyone think we'll be getting more than the dragon? The dragon being a "fighter" of sorts, ant word on some sort of bomber?

//Calle (who loved 3.5, but is worried on how to make a fluffy DG list that is able to tackle flyers).

The new rumors from 12/8/12 seem to be legit.

TBH, I cannot see a boxed starter coming out without all the rules for the Cultists and Hellbrute.

It might have the rules in the how to play book, but it won't have the points costs for us vets with CSM armies.

Jag_Calle wrote:
Anyone think we'll be getting more than the dragon? The dragon being a "fighter" of sorts, ant word on some sort of bomber?

//Calle (who loved 3.5, but is worried on how to make a fluffy DG list that is able to tackle flyers).

I think they may eventually release one independently via WD, like the Stormtalon, or allow the ForgeWorld models that include a fighter. That's just speculation, though.

Nicorex wrote: Zerkers with chain axes are St4 AP4.. WOW thats what they are now! (sarcasm).

they don't have an ap value now...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TalonZahn wrote:

Half the stuff went up in cost, and in some cases lost an ability/rule to boot. For example Chosen now cost more, and are worse than before.

They said the point cost for the special weapons went down. So, it could balance out to be a point decrease, once you factor in weapons


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TzeentchNet wrote:Most of this sounds pretty interesting (even Abbadon), but poor Huron has to roll random powers each turn? That terrible with his Mastery Level 1. Oh well, he wasn't popular before anyways.

I'm interested in seeing how the cultist upgrades work (looks like they can get the flails?) with Tzeentch and Slaanesh. The other gods better get something as cool as turning them into zombies

We should know more this week

Huron GETS to roll random powers each turn! That sounds like a lot of fun! I've been rolling on the telekinesis chart every game, trying to get the power that lets me shoot someone with their own unit, and I've never gotten it. If I got to reroll my power each turn, then maybe I'll actually be able to use it for once

I hope the Abaddon rumors are true... I have 25 Chosen Terminators and 50 Chosen Black Legion... please please please make them Troops.

I will just need to add some Dragons and I'll be good to go. Combine that with Allied Daemons and I will finally be able to play the Black Legion I have always wanted... and my wife can't wait to have a true Dark Apostle leading a seething mass of rabid cultists. Chaos is making a comeback finally, after more than a year of getting curb stomped by the GK and BA in our house I am seeing some epic battles in the near future.

Jag_Calle wrote:Question:
Most newer dexes seem to include two to three flyers:
Dark eldar, Orks via WD, necrons...
Anyone think we'll be getting more than the dragon? The dragon being a "fighter" of sorts, ant word on some sort of bomber?

//Calle (who loved 3.5, but is worried on how to make a fluffy DG list that is able to tackle flyers).

I'm hopping to see the Stormtalon or Stormraven in the new dex. The Stormraven atleast has been in issue since the Heresy so why would chaos not have any. I doubt the Raven would become a flyer if it wasn't FAQed as one yet, just stating my opinion of wanting one.
But the Dragon my have 2 variants like the Necron's. I doubt we'll see another 2 models type release like the DE simply because its so much more work for the sculptors.

kenzosan wrote:I'm hopping to see the Stormtalon or Stormraven in the new dex. The Stormraven atleast has been in issue since the Heresy so why would chaos not have any.

For the same reason (you get to choose) they have no Pods, no Land Speeders, and only 1 type of Land Raider.

Here's your choices;

1) They left them all behind when retreating into the Eye of Terror - a.k.a. too stupid to grab their gear and go/forgot to get it from the planets they owned before they left.
2) They have NO WAY of manufacturing them.
3) Everyhing left on the current battlefield CANNOT be taken as salvage and must be left, scuttled, or melted down.
4) Renegades only take what they can carry, nothing else. (See points 1 and 3) I mean seriously, if I was driving a Land Raider Crusader and decided to join Chaos all of a sudden, I'd just get out and walk.
5) Chaos Marines are forging a narrative.

I highly doubt CSM will ever see Raven/Talon and their new fighter/dragon will probably be a air superiority type of craft with zero transport capabilities. Which is fine by me actually. The end point for GW is to prove that CSM are not "Evil" SM, although they are, but not really.

Here is another explaination for Chaos Marines not necessarily having drop pods... GW's portrayel of Chaos Marines are moving more towards a force that has an integrated hierarchy utilizing cultists. That is a handful of marines with a bunch of guys who probably couldn't survive a drop pod drop. Cultist's aren't the most disciplined and need their marine's close by (at least present in the warzone) or else they'd likely run... It is that Chaos marines without the vast supplies and reinforcements that the Imperium has access to that they're forced to rely on cultists and that reliance imposes a tactical compromise in the need to act in a command capacity not conducive with an overly specialized drop force.

aka_mythos wrote:Here is another explaination for Chaos Marines not necessarily having drop pods... GW's portrayel of Chaos Marines are moving more towards a force that has an integrated hierarchy utilizing cultists. That is a handful of marines with a bunch of guys who probably couldn't survive a drop pod drop. Cultist's aren't the most disciplined and need their marine's close by (at least present in the warzone) or else they'd likely run... It is that Chaos marines without the vast supplies and reinforcements that the Imperium has access to that they're forced to rely on cultists and that reliance imposes a tactical compromise in the need to act in a command capacity not conducive with an overly specialized drop force.

Thank you for chosing option 5.

You have successfully forged a narrative. Please step forward and collect your prize.

My narrative is closer to the words GW has written and not implied. My Legion controls 2 planets covered in machinery inside the Eye. Structures so large they dock warships to them and the surface is covered by machines and their factories. I play Imperial Fists.

Anyway... I don't think CSM will see any current SM units added for two reasons; 1) CSM aren't SM with spikes and GW is intent on that point or they would cut & paste the SM Codex into the CSM Codex. 2) There's been no mention in any rumors from anywhere on the webZ that indicates these units will be added.

I'd think that if the Raven or Talon were in even hinted at in the very first CSM Codex playtesting rules, we would have known about 5 minutes after that playtester got those rules.

TalonZahn wrote:

kenzosan wrote:I'm hopping to see the Stormtalon or Stormraven in the new dex. The Stormraven atleast has been in issue since the Heresy so why would chaos not have any.

For the same reason (you get to choose) they have no Pods, no Land Speeders, and only 1 type of Land Raider.

Here's your choices;

1) They left them all behind when retreating into the Eye of Terror - a.k.a. too stupid to grab their gear and go/forgot to get it from the planets they owned before they left.
2) They have NO WAY of manufacturing them.
3) Everyhing left on the current battlefield CANNOT be taken as salvage and must be left, scuttled, or melted down.
4) Renegades only take what they can carry, nothing else. (See points 1 and 3) I mean seriously, if I was driving a Land Raider Crusader and decided to join Chaos all of a sudden, I'd just get out and walk.
5) Chaos Marines are forging a narrative.

I highly doubt CSM will ever see Raven/Talon and their new fighter/dragon will probably be a air superiority type of craft with zero transport capabilities. Which is fine by me actually. The end point for GW is to prove that CSM are not "Evil" SM, although they are, but not really.

They do have a pod, technically. Forge World made one.
Alternate Land Raiders. Fluff wise, don't know how many variants there were in the Heresy (a thousand sons only mentioned a Land Raider no other designation)
I have no idea if chaos have a forge world but they should. They have had a damn good amount of time. Plus they have Titans and tanks. They have to be making them somehow. Same for all their weapons. If not, then everything they field should be some Chaos hybrid.
As for Renegades, your telling me you go renegade and you'd LEAVE A LAND RAIDER BEHIND?! I'm sorry but I'm taking every flying machine that can transport armies, that includes the Land Raiders, Titans, and Basilisks, you name it I'm taking it. Your abandoning the Empire. Do you really want to fight against every single tank in the Empire with 1 Lascannon when you can take a flying fortress and all it's weapons and tanks?

I want new units, I don't want reworkings of existing ones (ie Land Raiders and Storm Talons). But aside from the Defiler, when have they done that for us? Our troops aren't even special. The Dragon is the first thing that isn't in the SM codex that is in the CSM other than the Defiler and Spawn. Cultists, Chosen, Possesed are all just Space marines with special rules. So if you ask me, a reworked Talon or Raven are more likely than a completely new model, but an alternate build to the Dragon is the most likely.

Btw. Just want to add that I love how you took it so out of context I forgot what I posted in the first place. I said I expect a variant of the Dragon and I only wanted the Raven/Talon.

aka_mythos wrote:Here is another explaination for Chaos Marines not necessarily having drop pods... GW's portrayel of Chaos Marines are moving more towards a force that has an integrated hierarchy utilizing cultists. That is a handful of marines with a bunch of guys who probably couldn't survive a drop pod drop. Cultist's aren't the most disciplined and need their marine's close by (at least present in the warzone) or else they'd likely run... It is that Chaos marines without the vast supplies and reinforcements that the Imperium has access to that they're forced to rely on cultists and that reliance imposes a tactical compromise in the need to act in a command capacity not conducive with an overly specialized drop force.

Eh, just make a rule that says that Cultists are leadership gak (which they probably are already) unless there is a non-cultist unit on the board. There's plenty of stories where chaos mooks rise up against the local authorities and the spiky marines show up after the blood starts flowing. Plus the Night Lords use plenty of drop pods in their trilogy.

Anyway, the Dragon flier better the best sculpt ever because right now a flying dragon head just sounds goofy. I'm also less than impressed with using marks to create a themed army. An improved invuln save isn't what defines the Thousand Sons, sorcerers throwing around crazy powers is what defines them. Ditto EC and better initiative vs sonic weapons. Give us a way to slap sorcerers/rubrics into anything that is/was a marine adn sonic weapons onto anything that moves and then we'll be cooking with gas. And don't bring up page counts. 3.5 took up 12 pages for cult legions and eight pages for the others (BL doesn't really need a specific entry), plus the 3.5 codex was paper thin, especially relative to the monstrosity that was the 5e C:SM, so page count really shouldn't enter into it.

We'll see what September brings.

CSM aren't SM with spikes

Well, no, that's exactly what CSMs are.

But GW might be trying to separate the two. Which is not a bad thing.

daveNYC wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Here is another explaination for Chaos Marines not necessarily having drop pods... GW's portrayel of Chaos Marines are moving more towards a force that has an integrated hierarchy utilizing cultists. That is a handful of marines with a bunch of guys who probably couldn't survive a drop pod drop. Cultist's aren't the most disciplined and need their marine's close by (at least present in the warzone) or else they'd likely run... It is that Chaos marines without the vast supplies and reinforcements that the Imperium has access to that they're forced to rely on cultists and that reliance imposes a tactical compromise in the need to act in a command capacity not conducive with an overly specialized drop force.

Eh, just make a rule that says that Cultists are leadership gak (which they probably are already) unless there is a non-cultist unit on the board. There's plenty of stories where chaos mooks rise up against the local authorities and the spiky marines show up after the blood starts flowing. Plus the Night Lords use plenty of drop pods in their trilogy.

Anyway, the Dragon flier better the best sculpt ever because right now a flying dragon head just sounds goofy. I'm also less than impressed with using marks to create a themed army. An improved invuln save isn't what defines the Thousand Sons, sorcerers throwing around crazy powers is what defines them. Ditto EC and better initiative vs sonic weapons. Give us a way to slap sorcerers/rubrics into anything that is/was a marine adn sonic weapons onto anything that moves and then we'll be cooking with gas. And don't bring up page counts. 3.5 took up 12 pages for cult legions and eight pages for the others (BL doesn't really need a specific entry), plus the 3.5 codex was paper thin, especially relative to the monstrosity that was the 5e C:SM, so page count really shouldn't enter into it.

We'll see what September brings.

This is what I like. I mean thats been my problem with 1000 suns and emperors children for so long. +1 stat is not a theme.

I just want my Termis to have psyker powers or sonic weapons. I still don't understand how a simple "may have terminator armor for +x points per model" can't be put into the Cultist entry. "O no, Chaos cant have troop choices that are termies, that would be op."

kenzosan wrote:Btw. Just want to add that I love how you took it so out of context I forgot what I posted in the first place. I said I expect a variant of the Dragon and I only wanted the Raven/Talon.

I was actually agreeing with you and you missed the giant sarcasm bomb I dropped in my post.

That's the entire point..... CSM should have everything that SM's do and then MORE as they are isolated (to a point) to develop their own tech or have it mutated into any number of things.

SM get rule X, CSM get rule Y to balance.

SM get Vehicle A, CSM get Vehicle A1 to balance.

Like I said, it will never happen. Despite the fact that GW laid out the Legions, mirrored them almost to the letter, and cut them in half Good vs. Evil style... GW will never make it that simple. So their only way out of writing themselves into a corner is to give and take where they want much to the dismay of many of their players/customers.

I'm sorry the conversation has flustered you.

kenzosan wrote:
They do have a pod, technically. Forge World made one.
Alternate Land Raiders. Fluff wise, don't know how many variants there were in the Heresy (a thousand sons only mentioned a Land Raider no other designation)
I have no idea if chaos have a forge world but they should. They have had a damn good amount of time. Plus they have Titans and tanks. They have to be making them somehow. Same for all their weapons. If not, then everything they field should be some Chaos hybrid.
As for Renegades, your telling me you go renegade and you'd LEAVE A LAND RAIDER BEHIND?! I'm sorry but I'm taking every flying machine that can transport armies, that includes the Land Raiders, Titans, and Basilisks, you name it I'm taking it. Your abandoning the Empire. Do you really want to fight against every single tank in the Empire with 1 Lascannon when you can take a flying fortress and all it's weapons and tanks?
...

Chaos went into the Eye of Terror with roughly half of the Mechanicum and all the factory ships that had been supporting the Great Crusade, so they have the industrial capacity.

I think the simpliest explanation is that members of the Dark Mechanicum are techpriests that would rather experiment on developing daemon enfused weapons before developing/building a new weapon load out for a land raider... to that end Chaos just gets what comes out of the Land Raider factory when the least effort is put into it. My explanation for Renegades is that as a Land Raider's weapons are damaged or destroyed the easiest repair is one the returns it to its most basic configuration.

kenzosan wrote:
I want new units, I don't want reworkings of existing ones (ie Land Raiders and Storm Talons). But aside from the Defiler, when have they done that for us? Our troops aren't even special. The Dragon is the first thing that isn't in the SM codex that is in the CSM other than the Defiler and Spawn. Cultists, Chosen, Possesed are all just Space marines with special rules. So if you ask me, a reworked Talon or Raven are more likely than a completely new model, but an alternate build to the Dragon is the most likely...

In addition to the Dragon we're rumored to get two other new Daemon engines... that makes me very happy.

about land raider variant fluff...

Regular land raider goes into the warp

it gets warped

it comes out of the warp variantized into "Warped Landraider"

Who is to say how the warp affects a landraider. Maybe it makes it larger, giving it higher carrying capacity. Maybe it becomes daemonically posessed, ignoring all glancing hits. Maybe the guns are affected somehow altering the range, strength, ap, number of shots, or shot type.

Who knows what the warp will do to it. This is a perfect fluff to ANY chaos landraider variant. Insert vanilla land raider into warp, out pops warped landraider variant.

This may be a dumb question, but I didn't have the time to skim through 39 pages of thread.

I knew before there was talk of Chaos Legions, is that thrown out the window and all of those rumors are actually focused towards this new CSM codex?

Many thanks

kenzosan wrote:Alternate Land Raiders. Fluff wise, don't know how many variants there were in the Heresy (a thousand sons only mentioned a Land Raider no other designation)

Several. There are at least two variants of the Mk1 Proteus as well as the Spartan offshoot and HH art showing the MkII in chaos legion hands.

pretre wrote:

Ok that is all I got guys every last drop of rumor juice is gone! Enjoy, oh wait what is this at the bottom of my cup…
Prepare to be Despoiled
Abaddon is still one bad ass. His stats and cost remain the same. He will always be your Warlord. Drach’nyen: Demon Weapon, Specialist Weapon, +1 str ap2. Talon of Horus: x2 str, re-roll wounds, BA get hatred to Abaddon, Any friendly unit within 12″ of Abaddon gets Preferred Enemy. The biggest thing about Abaddon though is he makes CHOSEN TROOPS!

I


I thought Abaddon may have been conspicuously omitted from recent rumors for a good reason. Preferred enemy bubble and Chosen troops? It's about time to saddle up the 14th Crusade boys, Pensacola's Abaddon is going on a road trip very soon.