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From what's been suggested so far I'm not sure what to think of this now. Initially I was quite excited about what I thought this would be, I didn't expect a "We shouldn't have destroyed the setting, so here it is again just as it was" situation exactly and my knowledge of WHFB lore is fairly limited but from what I've read races like the Lizardmen probably wouldn't be much of a thing? I expected this would be a return to the WHFB setting in a way with at least all the major components there, even if some specific characters and such weren't, but these hints that it's set potentially hundreds of years prior are a bit offputting to me in some ways if there are things that big missing.

If The Horus Heresy wasn't already a thing and rather than AoS they'd changed W40K in the same sort of way, destroying the setting, If they then years later said "We know you miss WH40K, so we're doing something to bring that back" and then what was got was the Horus Heresy, I just don't see quite how that would fill that same void as such.The Horus Heresy wouldn't be a suitable replacement for W40K as its a setting where it's vaguely like what there was, but it's also not as the lore focus is vastly different, and even significant things you enjoyed as part of the setting might not even be there. Setting this so far in the past when races aren't as we know them in the setting seems like it might be a bit too much of a divergence for something that I assumed was intended to broadly be WHFB as people enjoyed it. Is that the wrong sort of take on how big a difference in the lore there might be with this?

 Mr Morden wrote:
The island to the west of Albion - isn't that new - Warhammer Ireland?

I can't quite read the names in Norsica so not sure how new they are?

I think that's just part of Albion, which was Aeryn if I remember right.

I wonder if we, collectively, are putting too much emphasis on the map?

Sure we’ve bugger all else at the moment, but please hear me out.

See, if this is being done ala Heresy, the obvious thing to do to me, to help guide the release schedule of new stuff, is to do historical campaign books?

Throw in a Ravening Hordes type primer, so anyone with an existing army can successfully dust it off. But for actually re-launching the world, the periodical historical campaign approach could work?

In short, we need to remember this particular map isn’t likely to be the be all and end all. The Empire was always the main focus of the game, being the largest human society covered.

I mean if they just "rebooted" whfb in a new timeline that predated ehat we knew as og ehfb. I dont think it eould be such a bad thing.

Could have all new heroes and chsracters without the ridonculousness.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 ekwatts wrote:
This isn't Mordheim by a different name. This is Warhammer. And likely to be some kind of "historical" type game where battles from either a range of historical eras of Warhammer are detailed, or one era in particular, in the same way that the last version of Epic concentrated on the War for Armageddon.

However, that makes some kind of Mordheim revival slightly more likely.

As for GW apologising over AoS... haha, keep trying chaps. GW aren't going to apologise for moving to AoS, ever. Warhammer is being brought back as a specialist games-style niche format, not as a main line (to begin with, at the very least). And regardless of how successful it is, as with Blood Bowl, Necromunda, etc, it will still never overtake AoS as a main line. That's literally the entire problem GW had with Fantasy Battles. It isn't something that has magically cured with being off the market for a few years. The interest isn't there. Bringing it back as an arms-length niche line is a shrewd move, however.

The "interest" was fine for decades, until GW got greedy and careless. The idea that WHFB couldn't recover to it's former heights with the right support and approach or that AoS couldn't suffer the same fall given the same management bungling is just nonsense. I'm not arguing GW will do either, but this tired meme that WHFB was just suddenly unwanted and unprofitable for Reasons needs to go away.

When WFB was at its height of popularity and play, you picked up a regiment that had a completely viable and playable regiment. You didn't need to, as in 8th, nab 5 boxes of $40 Goldswords to have one unit that was game relevant. Until GW gets that back in their head they will be dancing with fire. Sure, I understand that niche pricing will still pop 20 count regiments near $40-50, but it still makes a 1,000 point game attainable to a new player within a reasonable time and a reasonable price. At last editiong, it was upwards of $500 to get a small playable army. Swarm? You're screwed.

This.

Also, Kallus, no offense or anything, but if "redshirt who totes knows a guy at head office" is considered so laughable as a source for rumours about upcoming product that it's been a running joke for the last twenty years, I'm not going to rank it any higher because they're claiming to know about the finances side of things. From all the information we have before GW started clamping down on what was included in their financial reports and from proven, reliable rumour-mongers of old, WHFB wasn't fully into a death-spiral until the late oughts, and even at the time people were quite readily pointing out both the problems and the obvious solutions to them.

My original assessment stands - WHFB was a casualty of GW's mismanagement. There was nothing inevitable about its decline, and no other impediment to its salvation.

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
I can’t gelp feel that as the Heresy money train comes to an end over the next five years that GW sees this replacing it but I very much doubt it will unless they invest in plastics to bridge the price gap.

The Old World lost any relevance to AoS fluff when it was destroyed , whereas the Heresy forms a kind of shadow hovering over the present day in 40k , a lost golden age with fragments left in the 41st millennium.

It’s cool that they are looking at it and I’d be excited to see the parts of the old world that never received much attention getting Heresy like detail, and I can see how the fluff could be slowly steered in AoS to link it.

Any attempt to retcon the fluff to better "steer into AoS" will sink this no question. People who switched to AoS are largely happy with AoS, even if they stuck with the WHF fluff. People who didn't switch to AoS won't want the setting they do like futzed with for the sake of a game and IP they don't care for. If GW are smart, they'll gloss over everything to do with End Times and any links to AoS as much as they possibly can outside of the marketing bumph on WHC - a returning WHF fan who opens up a TOW book should be able to read it cover to cover without once being reminded of the whole 2014-15 clusterhump, that's how it'll recapture that audience, and it's that audience it needs, not the tiny fraction of AoS fans it might be able to peel off with a more explicit link.

None taken, especially as I dont take most of the speculatory drivel I hear from many online to be fact. I know what I was told, and by whom, you can take that in whatever way you wish. People can choose to believe whatever they want, won't affect me in the slightest


From the map I imagine we will see all the original culprits but in what period in the timeline, one can only guess. I wonder if theyre going to do a mass re-roll out of older oop plastic regiments or be focussing on making newer versions of older (not so great) sculpts. Tomb Kings core units spring to mind

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I wonder if we, collectively, are putting too much emphasis on the map?

Sure we’ve bugger all else at the moment, but please hear me out.

See, if this is being done ala Heresy, the obvious thing to do to me, to help guide the release schedule of new stuff, is to do historical campaign books?

Throw in a Ravening Hordes type primer, so anyone with an existing army can successfully dust it off. But for actually re-launching the world, the periodical historical campaign approach could work?

In short, we need to remember this particular map isn’t likely to be the be all and end all. The Empire was always the main focus of the game, being the largest human society covered.

This is what I think. Like HH Age of Darkness maybe we’ll get books that “introduce” “new” races linked to a campaign: Book one- age of the three emperors, Book 2- War of the beard, Book 3- Great War against Chaos... and so on and like HH some armies get new models and rules if they might also appear in a certain campaign it aren’t the main protagonists or antagonists.

 Argive wrote:
I mean if they just "rebooted" whfb in a new timeline that predated ehat we knew as og ehfb. I dont think it eould be such a bad thing.

Could have all new heroes and chsracters without the ridonculousness.

I agree. I mean, the joy of 40k is that whilst it’s always One Minute To Midnight, there’s a near infinite number of Warzones to explore in said minute. WHFB? Sadly restricted to just the one world, and very, very set nations.

But, the joy of WHFB is that it’s history was somewhat less defined than 40k. Yes there are chronological punctuation marks, such as The War of the Beard, Magnus The Pious etc. Between those there’s an awful lot of ‘and nothing really big is in the history books’.

And I used that last phrase very carefully. Because ‘nothing really big is in the history books’ is absolutely not the same as ‘and nothing much really happened for a couple of hundred years’. Just that the scale of those events are overshadowed by their narrative bookend events. And given just how historically huge said narrative bookends are, that leaves quite a lot of historical scale left to play with. Provided there’s no, for example ‘actually this was the first siege of Praag’ type things, the field is rich.

My word I’m being unusually eloquent today. Did you notice? I did.

TL/DR version? The thing I feel is open to exploitation for a product is that WHFB had/has considerably more narrative blanks than it had/has narrative events.

So much as an alternative timeline to End Times, where perhaps the previously charming Mannfred wasn’t in fact a selfish male chicken and thus Archaon was thwarted and got the crap kicked out of him has an appeal to me, and I for one would welcome, it’s far, far from the only route open. Indeed, we could have that and History Hammer all the same. The two are simply in no way mutually exclusive.

 ekwatts wrote:
This isn't Mordheim by a different name. This is Warhammer. And likely to be some kind of "historical" type game where battles from either a range of historical eras of Warhammer are detailed, or one era in particular, in the same way that the last version of Epic concentrated on the War for Armageddon.

However, that makes some kind of Mordheim revival slightly more likely.

As for GW apologising over AoS... haha, keep trying chaps. GW aren't going to apologise for moving to AoS, ever. Warhammer is being brought back as a specialist games-style niche format, not as a main line (to begin with, at the very least). And regardless of how successful it is, as with Blood Bowl, Necromunda, etc, it will still never overtake AoS as a main line. That's literally the entire problem GW had with Fantasy Battles. It isn't something that has magically cured with being off the market for a few years. The interest isn't there. Bringing it back as an arms-length niche line is a shrewd move, however.

They had interest for top3 miniature game. What they lacked was releases. No new releases, no sales. Old releases had already sold majority of sales they ever get. If gw would stop releases to aos then aos sales would get dump in sale.

Fb: top 3 seller
Gw decides to create aos
Gw stops putting out fb releases
Fb sales halt

Even 40k sales would die with amount of support gw put ln. Gw killedof sales themselves because fb didn't sell marine level. But nothing does and nothing will

Here be Whales...



I miss GW humor so much...

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I'm not saying you are wrong, but LOTR? really?

I have literally never seen a game of LOTR, in any country I have visited. In any tournament, in any game shop.

I have a very hard time believing that stat without some hard numbers.

LotR was the only of the 3 main games sold in mass retailers like Barnes & Noble and other book stores. Gamers weren't the only ones buying and most players were playing at home/clubs.

This is not true. Battle for Macragge was sold at Barnes and Noble, along with a bunch of space marine and Tyranid kits. They ended up on clearance, too.

I play AOS and I like it. I played WHFB and I really liked that game. Someone mentioned that WHFB wouldn't be as big as AOS because the reason they switched from WHFB to AOS was that it wasn't selling. As a retailer, I can tell you that when AOS was first released, it wasn't selling either. It's not the WHFB game or the AOS model being better, it's that GW finally figured out marketing. They got rid of Kirby and figured out how to sell things.

Example: Probably the main thing that contributed to the demise of WHFB was the release cycle. A book would get released, and whether it was underpowered or overpowered, you would have to wait 7 YEARS to get a new book when the game received a new edition. With AOS you get an FAQ 2 WEEKS after release and points adjustments every year in the General's Handbook.

Examples: GW rested on it's laurels and rarely created new races for WHFB. The Ogre Kingdoms being the last big thing being introduced. AOS has new stuff all the time.

Example: GW had a code of secrecy which created a situation where excitement and hype about new product was almost non-existent. Now they Troll us with new stuff and we eat it up.

Example: With WHFB you had to wait for a sculptor to sculpt a whole army (which took years). By getting with the 21st century, GW can now create a 3d model on computer and create a metal mold rather quickly. This accounts for the stream of new amazing models in a short amount of time.

So it's not the game system that made the difference, it's the marketing, the allocation of resources, and the move to embrace technology that increased their sales.

I have also heard people downplay an alternate timeline setting for WHFB. Some fear the loss of familiar characters, others that a Mad Max style world would be too strange and kill the fluff. But I am old enough to remember when Archaeon won the first time. They had a Storm of Chaos event where Middenheim was conquered and chaos was DEEP into Empire territory. What happened to that timeline? It got retconned and it never happened. They could do the same with the end times and keep the Old World going just fine. I'm one of these guys where when I know the ending of a book or movie series is unsatisfying, it has much less appeal to me. For instance, I thought the way Star Wars ended the life of Hans Solo was terrible. I therefore was completely uninterested in watching a series of movies about the early career of Hans Solo because I can't get into the character knowing that he dies like a chump. In the same way, I can't get into playing an earlier time line knowing that all of the adventures I create, all of the characters I play battle to battle are irrelevant. No heroic act that they do has any meaning because in a (relatively) short time, the world blows up.

So I am hoping they retcon the End Times so they never happen and the Old World just keeps on spinning.

Lotr was absolutely riding the movie interest wave. I remember around the Two Towers everyone was suddenly a lotr fan at my local GW. Epic battles like helms deep etc realy sold people on the spectacle and thusly the idea of the minis... The marketing was there too with the deagostini style magazine in every store which had a lotr logo snd not warhammer or gw so it appeared as a different thing.... With the rtok and the battle of palenor fields it absolutely peaked! And once interest died down the game faded with it. Until the hobbit films but once

Theres a reason why the battle of palenor field has been on sale since time imnemorial. Its whent lotr peaked.

That certainly took the wind out of 40k and whfb. However whfb didint recover the same way 40 did i think.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I'm not saying you are wrong, but LOTR? really?

I have literally never seen a game of LOTR, in any country I have visited. In any tournament, in any game shop.

I have a very hard time believing that stat without some hard numbers.

LotR was the only of the 3 main games sold in mass retailers like Barnes & Noble and other book stores. Gamers weren't the only ones buying and most players were playing at home/clubs.

This is not true. Battle for Macragge was sold at Barnes and Noble, along with a bunch of space marine and Tyranid kits. They ended up on clearance, too.

LOTR sold incredibly well. I was a Redshirt at the time, and sales were really, really good.

Apocryphally, it’s been my understanding from reliable sources that GW had expected the license fee to make its money back by around ROTK. Apparently it happened half way through Fellowship.

Indeed, being GW’s first and only major and modern foray into Licensing, the impact of the collapse is testament to just how much money it generated.

Fairly or not, GW have been licensed game adverse (so far as being the recipient) ever since.

I mean, pre-Asmodai, do you really think FFG had the readies and facilities to outbid GW for a Star Wars license, has they really wanted it?

I would Imagine if we see a rumoured simarilion high budget show or movies, we'd see a surge of lotr.

As WHTW 1&2 are hugely sucessful theres a want for old world in the same vein. Dont forget WHTW 3 is coming as a final update where we'll see deamons and likely mayne some unexplored factions like cathay.

I remember hoping that whfb samurai and jade dog beasts would appear that I could pit against high elves or zombies. Never happened though lol.

God my phone typing is akin to a braindead monkey... appologies

Smellingsalts wrote:
I play AOS and I like it. I played WHFB and I really liked that game. Someone mentioned that WHFB wouldn't be as big as AOS because the reason they switched from WHFB to AOS was that it wasn't selling. As a retailer, I can tell you that when AOS was first released, it wasn't selling either. It's not the WHFB game or the AOS model being better, it's that GW finally figured out marketing. They got rid of Kirby and figured out how to sell things.

Example: Probably the main thing that contributed to the demise of WHFB was the release cycle. A book would get released, and whether it was underpowered or overpowered, you would have to wait 7 YEARS to get a new book when the game received a new edition. With AOS you get an FAQ 2 WEEKS after release and points adjustments every year in the General's Handbook.

Examples: GW rested on it's laurels and rarely created new races for WHFB. The Ogre Kingdoms being the last big thing being introduced. AOS has new stuff all the time.

Example: GW had a code of secrecy which created a situation where excitement and hype about new product was almost non-existent. Now they Troll us with new stuff and we eat it up.

Example: With WHFB you had to wait for a sculptor to sculpt a whole army (which took years). By getting with the 21st century, GW can now create a 3d model on computer and create a metal mold rather quickly. This accounts for the stream of new amazing models in a short amount of time.

So it's not the game system that made the difference, it's the marketing, the allocation of resources, and the move to embrace technology that increased their sales.

This is why when i see arguments like "AoS is more popular and WHFB was dying so it was needed!" I think they're just completely missing the point and its a non-argument. The problems of WHFB had little to do with the lore - it was the game itself and how GW handled things at that time that caused the lack of interest. That AoS is more popular does not indicate that it was the right move to destroy the setting, I seriously doubt many people went "They got rid of the lore, now i'm interested!" and started because of that...rather than the lower entry costs, ease of play and awesome new models that AoS has bought being what made the difference. They could have made the changes to the game and kept the lore and I expect that would have been as popular (ir if not more so) than AoS. Especially when you've got video games and such using the setting now too.

The new map combined with all the vagueness of this entire thing is a bit worrying. I'm glad this is returning to the WHFB setting and getting new models and such sounds great, but if it's going to avoid well-known parts of the lore by being set so far in the past that it's like a different setting, then to me it's like they might be going in the wrong direction from the start. It should be a revival of WHFB lore and gameplay in some way along the same line as what there was, not something that just vaguely resembles but is ultimately different, otherwise I think it somewhat misses the point.of returning to the setting in the first place.

Going back to the setting in a way that avoids actually going back to what people know and enjoyed about the setting would just be odd.

 insaniak wrote:

Smellingsalts wrote:
GW need to do a mea culpa for all of the fans they pissed off by blowing up the old world. An alternate timeline where that didn't happen would be a good place to start

Blowing up the Old World wasn't the problem. Blowing up the game was.

It's perfectly fine for the game to exist in a time before the end of the world. Although, honestly, given how much it invigorated the player base in general, it should have been a no brainer for them to continue the game set during the End Times.

I feel completely the opposite way. Without a great setting, the game doesn’t matter. With a great setting, GW can release multiple games and expect them to do well.

The Old World belles up, and it was stupid. Making a historical campaign that does not address this is not a fix. I don’t want to buy Old World books and minis that don’t take place in the Old World of Karl Franz, the Old World I and many others have invested in in many ways. I don’t want to play a version of the Horus Heresy where I know that Abaddon will eventually kill the Emperor and Nurdle will destroy Ultramar. That’s just sad.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Smellingsalts wrote:
GW need to do a mea culpa for all of the fans they pissed off by blowing up the old world. An alternate timeline where that didn't happen would be a good place to start

Blowing up the Old World wasn't the problem. Blowing up the game was.

It's perfectly fine for the game to exist in a time before the end of the world. Although, honestly, given how much it invigorated the player base in general, it should have been a no brainer for them to continue the game set during the End Times.

I feel completely the opposite way. Without a great setting, the game doesn’t matter. With a great setting, GW can release multiple games and expect them to do well.

The Old World belles up, and it was stupid. Making a historical campaign that does not address this is not a fix. I don’t want to buy Old World books and minis that don’t take place in the Old World of Karl Franz, the Old World I and many others have invested in in many ways. I don’t want to play a version of the Horus Heresy where I know that Abaddon will eventually kill the Emperor and Nurgle will destroy Ultramar. That’s just sad.

I think a very simple fix here would be to have the new Fantasy take place in an alternate timeline where the End Times was either stopped at some point or just never started.

That would be my preference.

 Argive wrote:
Lotr was absolutely riding the movie interest wave. I remember around the Two Towers everyone was suddenly a lotr fan at my local GW. Epic battles like helms deep etc realy sold people on the spectacle and thusly the idea of the minis... The marketing was there too with the deagostini style magazine in every store which had a lotr logo snd not warhammer or gw so it appeared as a different thing.... With the rtok and the battle of palenor fields it absolutely peaked! And once interest died down the game faded with it. Until the hobbit films but once

Theres a reason why the battle of palenor field has been on sale since time imnemorial. Its whent lotr peaked.

That certainly took the wind out of 40k and whfb. However whfb didint recover the same way 40 did i think.

Eh the pelenor field box on sale now is new product that came out fall 2018...

Wasn't it just reboxed? I swear Ive seent that since ROTK movie..
My bad then.

I think it's in keeping with GWs strategy that they use the 3 emperors time period.

All their non core games seem to be built around some kind of existing narrative to provide a context for the game.

I imagine that they won't be releasing wfb as anyone knew it.

I think it will be rules based around the characteristics of the different states and unique units we've never seen. I think it will be all new models for all new units.

If they introduce non empire armies/units, v they won't be standard classic army designs but new unique period specific units.

I don't know about that.. Having just slightly different dressed humans + couple ROR going at it might not appeal.

Huge appeal of the game is the spectacle of having bunch of peasant spearmen getting bulldozed by an angry dragon..

Hellebore wrote:
I think it's in keeping with GWs strategy that they use the 3 emperors time period.

All their non core games seem to be built around some kind of existing narrative to provide a context for the game.

I imagine that they won't be releasing wfb as anyone knew it.

I think it will be rules based around the characteristics of the different states and unique units we've never seen. I think it will be all new models for all new units.

If they introduce non empire armies/units, v they won't be standard classic army designs but new unique period specific units.

Agreed, or at least that's what it'll start with. Maybe a Ravening Hordes-style supplement for the other lists out there.

I'd expect things like new special characters, Priests/esses of Ulric, Taal, Sigmar, Manaan, Teutogen Guard, a few other unique units in a similar vein. I'd also expect a new state troop kit, and closer aesthetically to the Perry plastics from 5th/6th edition.

The main thing I'd love to see is a return to the variety of the 4th Ed army book, but with a modern twist. War-wagons pulled by demi-griffs, sea elves for Marienburg.... but I'll stop wishlisting.

 Argive wrote:
Wasn't it just reboxed? I swear Ive seent that since ROTK movie..
My bad then.

No. Completely new. And included first ever plastic hero for LOTR.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Argive wrote:
I don't know about that.. Having just slightly different dressed humans + couple ROR going at it might not appeal.

Huge appeal of the game is the spectacle of having bunch of peasant spearmen getting bulldozed by an angry dragon..

It's worked for FW before. HH, AT...Even necromunda is similar in that idea. It's just slightly different gangers fighting.

It's also practical. Each faction would be like dozen+ kits. So 6 faction, around 60-70 kits...That's a lot to release in quick order. so either you cut down on faction # or factions will get to be with like 3-4 kits for looooooong time

pm713 wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Smellingsalts wrote:
GW need to do a mea culpa for all of the fans they pissed off by blowing up the old world. An alternate timeline where that didn't happen would be a good place to start

Blowing up the Old World wasn't the problem. Blowing up the game was.

It's perfectly fine for the game to exist in a time before the end of the world. Although, honestly, given how much it invigorated the player base in general, it should have been a no brainer for them to continue the game set during the End Times.

I feel completely the opposite way. Without a great setting, the game doesn’t matter. With a great setting, GW can release multiple games and expect them to do well.

The Old World belles up, and it was stupid. Making a historical campaign that does not address this is not a fix. I don’t want to buy Old World books and minis that don’t take place in the Old World of Karl Franz, the Old World I and many others have invested in in many ways. I don’t want to play a version of the Horus Heresy where I know that Abaddon will eventually kill the Emperor and Nurgle will destroy Ultramar. That’s just sad.

I think a very simple fix here would be to have the new Fantasy take place in an alternate timeline where the End Times was either stopped at some point or just never started.

post Storm of Chaos then - most of WFRP 2nd edition is set in the post Storm world. Plus at least one of the total World anthologies is after Archaeon is stopped.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Smellingsalts wrote:
GW need to do a mea culpa for all of the fans they pissed off by blowing up the old world. An alternate timeline where that didn't happen would be a good place to start

Blowing up the Old World wasn't the problem. Blowing up the game was.

It's perfectly fine for the game to exist in a time before the end of the world. Although, honestly, given how much it invigorated the player base in general, it should have been a no brainer for them to continue the game set during the End Times.

I feel completely the opposite way. Without a great setting, the game doesn’t matter. With a great setting, GW can release multiple games and expect them to do well.

The Old World belles up, and it was stupid. Making a historical campaign that does not address this is not a fix. I don’t want to buy Old World books and minis that don’t take place in the Old World of Karl Franz, the Old World I and many others have invested in in many ways. I don’t want to play a version of the Horus Heresy where I know that Abaddon will eventually kill the Emperor and Nurdle will destroy Ultramar. That’s just sad.

Well, I mean...Horus Heresy players play in a setting where they know the rebels will lose. X-Wing players know the Empire will eventually lose, and Bolt Action players know that the Axis Powers lost and so on.
I don't have a problem with a foregone conclusion, as long as the immersion in the time period itself feels right.

Cronch wrote:

pm713 wrote:

I think a very simple fix here would be to have the new Fantasy take place in an alternate timeline where the End Times was either stopped at some point or just never started.

To quote decades of angry manchildren screaming about female marines: BUT MY CANON!

Except that there are a TON of players that looked at the End Times as poorly written, poorly executed, and a severely bad portrayal of most of the participants in the event. At that point, they won't be lamenting an alternate timeline. Besides, an alternate timeline doesn't eradicate ET being prehistory for AOS.

 Esmer wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Smellingsalts wrote:
GW need to do a mea culpa for all of the fans they pissed off by blowing up the old world. An alternate timeline where that didn't happen would be a good place to start

Blowing up the Old World wasn't the problem. Blowing up the game was.

It's perfectly fine for the game to exist in a time before the end of the world. Although, honestly, given how much it invigorated the player base in general, it should have been a no brainer for them to continue the game set during the End Times.

I feel completely the opposite way. Without a great setting, the game doesn’t matter. With a great setting, GW can release multiple games and expect them to do well.

The Old World belles up, and it was stupid. Making a historical campaign that does not address this is not a fix. I don’t want to buy Old World books and minis that don’t take place in the Old World of Karl Franz, the Old World I and many others have invested in in many ways. I don’t want to play a version of the Horus Heresy where I know that Abaddon will eventually kill the Emperor and Nurdle will destroy Ultramar. That’s just sad.

Well, I mean...Horus Heresy players play in a setting where they know the rebels will lose. X-Wing players know the Empire will eventually lose, and Bolt Action players know that the Axis Powers lost and so on.
I don't have a problem with a foregone conclusion, as long as the immersion in the time period itself feels right.

A lot of people who play fantasy games don’t play historical. I certainly can’t stand the idea.
I think you’ll find the Sequel Trilogy has sapped a lot of enthusiasm for the setting of X-Wing ad the game is suffering for it.
Horus Heresy’s future has not been ended yet. The primary s and marines are still somewhat relevant. The Imperium has not yet been destroyed in a ridiculous manner sure to incense the fan base.

I mean, sure, there are always examples of people willing to play any dead or cringeworthy setting. I’m hoping GW tries to appeal to more than just those fringes of fandom.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

I think you’ll find the Sequel Trilogy has sapped a lot of enthusiasm for the setting of X-Wing ad the game is suffering for it.

?????

I'm going to assume those people never saw Return of the Jedi or read any of the previous EU books where the Empire was essentially broken apart by factional warlords looking to get theirs.

The War of the Emperors also had Gorbad and his Greenskins, and invasions by undead and beastmen. So even if it's a civil war it may not entirely be human