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Which is why it's unnecessary. Even the chance of it after having you units moved by someone else is just wrong.

Pinning may be difficult, but who cares...

The point is your unit is 2d6 inches closer to a close combat army which includes two daemon princes and a greater daemon as well as chaos marines.

Does a psychic hood work against it?

Yes

Better paint up another Librarian then...

Here's a new complaint: The summoning ability of Icons working while the model is in a transport vehicle. After having my Farseers nerfed by not being able to cast powers in a vehicle justified by saying the Farseer in a vehicle is not technically on the table, GW releases rules for the abilities of a model not on the table. BTW I'm being a bit facetious about the Farseer nerf... I know a mech Eldar player isn't going to get much sympathy , it's just the contradiction that irks me. I know, join the club.

However the upside of it is that it does provide interesting tactical opportunities. A new daemon bomb: Rush a rhino forward with a min CSM squad w/icon, and pop smoke. Next turn, hope for favorable summoning rolls, place a couple squads of daemons within 6" of vehicle and watch them assault. If there are any daemon squads left in reserve, the rhino can move to another location to repeat (minus the smoke of course) next turn. Maybe not a true daemonbomb... more of a daemon taxi tactic.

Well, that would work a lot better if there were daemons worth bombing people with. Which there aren't.

Posted By tegeus-Cromis on 08/10/2007 7:50 AM
Well, that would work a lot better if there were daemons worth bombing people with. Which there aren't.

True enough, it's not a tactic worth building a list around, but you can have a bunch of cheap harassment units quickly tie up gunlines by turn 2.  By my calculation, you can have  1 min CSM squad with icon, rhino, and a min squad of lesser demons for under 200 points and only 1 troop choice.  Add in a couple more cheap lesser demons (since they don't take up org slots) and you can really quickly shut down a gunline.  I know my IG would be in trouble, and those demons could actually do some damage to GEQ. 

Probably work well in a Khorne style army to lock down squads until the Berzerkers can arrive to finish them off.

Edit:  Hmmm... there has to be some value to a list with 10 min-sized lesser daemon squads for under 700 points.    Chaos horde list...

I just finished reading the new Codex.

Umm... I didn't like it before. I hate it now. The points costs and lack of options are just astounding. How are Possessed worth that much each when their abilities are completely random.

And 40 point Blastmasters? I'm sorry, AP3 is not worth that many points.

Greater Daemons are a sweet deal. Regular Daemons are a joke. I can see many Chaos armies with 3 Possessed Vindis as their HS slots.

The Codex is a joke. I think I'll do a full review later.

BYE

And 40 point Blastmasters? I'm sorry, AP3 is not worth that many points.

I dunno- I kind of like the idea that a weapon should take about 3 rounds of shooting it's primary targets to pay for itself and its carrier. 40 points for a CM blastmaster is more reasonable than 5 points for a SM heavy bolter. 

Play Rubric and save yourself 17 points per model for AP3 double tap.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/10/2007 9:21 AM
I just finished reading the new Codex.

Umm... I didn't like it before. I hate it now. The points costs and lack of options are just astounding. How are Possessed worth that much each when their abilities are completely random.

And 40 point Blastmasters? I'm sorry, AP3 is not worth that many points.

Greater Daemons are a sweet deal. Regular Daemons are a joke. I can see many Chaos armies with 3 Possessed Vindis as their HS slots.

The Codex is a joke. I think I'll do a full review later.

BYE

I'd like to say I can't wait to read your review, and really, I do want to read it, but it sounds as if I'm really not going to be happy after doing so...

That's not new and in some ways the way it works now is a nerf. Used to be able to control summoning by being in a transport. Now they just pop in regardless.

Yeah, its probably the most internally imbalanced codexes in a long time. Possessed is just one WTF.

Regular CSM is the main one IMHO. There's no reason to take them compared to the cult troops. Want shooty troops? Better off taking Noise Marines, cause even with a 40 blastmaster its cheaper then taking 10 guys for the las. Want short ranged shooty troops? Better off with Plague marines (or 1ksons), as even with 23 point Plague mariness you can get two special weapons cheaper then you can with regular CSM. Want assault oriented troops? Take berserkes as tehy are more efficeint in assault then anything you could do with CSM.

And the neato icons that GW seems to think are so grand? Waste of time on regular CSM outside of the Glory one.

I read the new codex and noticed that Chaos Terminators can't deepstrike in every mission like Space Marine Terminator. I thought I read somewere that they could. I'm I missing something?

Oh wait, I found it (p.86). Never mind.

I can't wait for the review...

I found it cute that Terminator Armor no longer gives an extra attack.

Happy Day! My preview copy arrived today. I'm putting on a pot of coffee, and digging through all my old figs, dumping some into the paint stripper, and starting a new army.

-I've got 20 GK termies that are looking awful nervous. A bit of work with a dremel tool, and nice red/brass paint job, a few weapon swaps, and a big Khorne Icon could really make them look spiffy.

-Definitely a greater demon, as I have a lot of bits and putty that want a new home.

-A little herd of spawn, because spawn are fun to make.

-and those 20 discs of tzeench are going to go under a squad of CSM with a Tzeentch icon, or maybe some 1ks. Maybe a second icon that says "no, we don't fly, it's just for looks".

Not really worried about competitive list building. My shop is planning on doing a lot of Apocalypse battles for the next year.

 

This is getting ridiculous.

Dakka has always been hard on GW, but things are getting crazy. Tau Empire did fine. Eldar did fine. Dark Angels,very few people liked. Blood Angels, very few people liked. Nobody likes Chaos. Except mikhaila. And, to be fair, I'd think that Apocalypse means that every store owner in the biz has to like GW right now.

My perceptions are my perceptions. Maybe I'm getting old and bitter. Maybe I'm getting jaded. But is ALL of Dakka getting the same way over the past three Codices? I don't think so. I think GW has literally managed to go from rules of questionable quality to rules of unacceptable quality.

Tiny improvements would be wonderful.

Doing nothing at all would even be ok.

Going backwards? Jesus, stop.

And what's next? Apocalypse? They're solving their problems by expecting us to paint three times as many models?

Warmachine is out there winning customers with tighter rules, better balance and lower model counts.

What does GW do? Even worse rules, even less balance, even more models.

It's impossible to fathom.

Please GW. PLEASE. I absolutely love your models. LOVE THEM. I am being supportive of your models in CAPITAL LETTERS. Stop writing such godawful rules. STOP (also in capitals).

I would LOVE to talk to Jervis about this crap at length.  I've never been so thoroughly mystified by anything in my life.

I am telling you phryxis, the recent trend is a poster child for crack babies.

Remember kids: Dont do crack!

 Nobody likes Chaos. Except mikhaila.

Heh. Please don't confuse me having fun digging through old lead and drinking too much caffiene, with actually liking this codex. I'm not going to say it's all bad, but I will easily admit that it's not what i expected, and I'm not thrilled with it. I miss nurglings, different types of demons and greater demons, and a lot of the flavorful options chaos used to have. They encouraged me to convert models. I'm not making new possessed, where the mutations don't mean anything other than giving you the ability to roll a dice and note down a change on your army list.

From a publishing end, I hate the layout and look of the codex. It has some neat stuff in it that will make me take a different army, but I can a) afford to redo my chaos b) have a use for an army I don't play much. (6 filled display cases, and need to shop for number 7) and c) get it at a discount. Others don't have that luxury. Oh, and I can write off my miniature purchases on my taxes.

I just plan on ignoring what I don't like, and building an army that i do. And laughing at my son who worked so hard to paint up that 2000 pt 'demon bomb', that had only 12 models that weren't demons.

I think the feeling that this Codex most fills me with is :

"Hell, I could have done a lot better than this! What were they thinking?"

And, to be fair, I'd think that Apocalypse means that every store owner in the biz has to like GW right now.

Oh yeah. I expect to sell a boatload of stuff, especially with all the special deals going on. I'm also pumped to start playing a lot of games. I think I'm happiest about Apocalypse in that it will get other people excited about super huge games.

Thats pretty well said, Mikhaila. Even though you obviously don't like it, you're fair.

*respeck knuckles*

As for apocalypse, I havent been this excited about anything in 40k since first opening Rogue Trader for the first time.

Nothing but love for apocalypse. It is seasoned with a slight dash of skepticism, but if I am having fun along with my buds, then I dont care.

Posted By Phryxis on 08/10/2007 9:55 PM

This is getting ridiculous.

Dakka has always been hard on GW, but things are getting crazy. Tau Empire did fine. Eldar did fine. Dark Angels,very few people liked. Blood Angels, very few people liked. Nobody likes Chaos. Except mikhaila. And, to be fair, I'd think that Apocalypse means that every store owner in the biz has to like GW right now.

My perceptions are my perceptions. Maybe I'm getting old and bitter. Maybe I'm getting jaded. But is ALL of Dakka getting the same way over the past three Codices? I don't think so. I think GW has literally managed to go from rules of questionable quality to rules of unacceptable quality.

No, it means that the people who enjoy the game have gotten sick of people screaming about how terrible things are and left.

Well my review is at 6 pages and I'm just getting to the rules.

Here's a sneak peek:

BYE

I'm actually working on my own version of the 40K rules right now. Same models and fluff, similar concepts, but different rules.

I've got to say, this quote is beginning to occupy more and more of my thinking.

My rules are far from done, and while I've certainly recognized that it's a task that requires careful thought, I'm actually pretty amazed at how easy it really is. I've got about two thirds of the core rules written, and it's taken me about ten hours of focused attention to do it.

Now, these rules will no doubt need playtesting, fixing, clarification, photos of examples, etc. etc. etc. That won't be quick. But all I hear about from Jervis is how hard they work over there. I don't know what "hard work" looks like in the UK, but in the US I'd say it's at least a 50 hour week. At that rate, I think I could have a new ruleset, with example photos and a nice looking layout, all the army lists, basically everything you'd need to play, in a month. 200 hours. As one guy. And better than what GW has now.

It's literally amazing.

I'm not trying to say I'm some sort of genius, either. I think any of the guys here who really pay attention to the rules, guys like Ed Maule, yakface, etc. could do the same thing I am.

Think about what GW puts into a Codex. It's basically a list, which you could write in a single night if you didn't plan to playtest it (which they apparently don't). Then it's some fluff, much of it recycled. Then it's art and photos of models. The art and photos are the nicest part, and the design team has nothing to do with those. The only part that they're really involved in, really necessary for, is the list, and that LITERALLY would take a day to do at the quality levels they're producing.

Posted By Phryxis on 08/11/2007 11:47 AM

"Hell, I could have done a lot better than this! What were they thinking?"

I'm actually working on my own version of the 40K rules right now. Same models and fluff, similar concepts, but different rules.

I've got to say, this quote is beginning to occupy more and more of my thinking.

Dude, just download No Limits (Free). Or 5150, or Chain Reaction 2 (cheap and downloadable). There are tons of good rules out there that people have converted their 40k figs over to use, from Stargrunt II to the aforementioned sets. There's even some conversions for the Starship Troopers mechanic for 40k armies.

While I think the endeavor is noble, and when you can get a whole group, like HBMC's, to agree on such a thing, usually you're going to find yourself putting a lot of effort into something that no one will play. At least people play the Two-Hour Wargames stuff, or your group can be convinced to switch over if it's a free download (and ~$10-15 to print out at Staples with a nice coil binding etc.).

Someone else can do a better job. Guess What? They already did. Save yourself the trouble. 

I'm sure that's the case, but it's really more a thought experiment on my part than anything else. I want to see what it's like to try to author rules, to see how long it takes, how hard it is, etc. etc.

I don't think that I'm going to be free of GW's crappy rules until they get their heads out of their asses and start doing better work. The fact is, if you want to play this game, you need opponents, and unless you've got some very unusual circumstances, the people you meet are playing GW's rules. It doesn't matter if I write the rules, they already exist, etc. etc. It's GW's rules that run their models.

Posted By Phryxis on 08/11/2007 1:17 PM
It's GW's rules that run their models.

  Unless you're one of the many, many NetEpic players.

Au Contraire, mon frere. They're your figures, and you can use 'em any way you like. Take a look at The Miniatures Page forums. There's lots of people who can't stand 40k/Fantasy, but are using Skinks as Venusians for Space: 1889, Cadians for generic sci-fi troops, Empire Militia as pirates, etc.

Link for the Lazy.

In case you change your mind Enjoy your thought experiment, though.

Posted By Phryxis on 08/11/2007 11:47 AM

I'm actually working on my own version of the 40K rules right now. Same models and fluff, similar concepts, but different rules.

Now, these rules will no doubt need playtesting, fixing, clarification, photos of examples, etc. etc. etc. That won't be quick. But all I hear about from Jervis is how hard they work over there. I don't know what "hard work" looks like in the UK, but in the US I'd say it's at least a 50 hour week. At that rate, I think I could have a new ruleset, with example photos and a nice looking layout, all the army lists, basically everything you'd need to play, in a month. 200 hours. As one guy. And better than what GW has now.

We've been working on our own rulebook and Codices for over 2 years now because of GW's constant f*#k-ups, and while we found it wasn't easy and it required a lot of testing, I think we've still done a better job than they could ever do.

BYE

Yeah, I modified Necromunda to be usable with regular 40K guys, and it took frickin' forever, and that was with extensive cut & paste from the Necromunda PDF file. It's not as easy as you might think.