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Defilers come with dreadnought ccw. They are S10...

Yes you can have 2 lash princes.

Lash Prince: Demon Prince with MoS, LoS, wings 155pts

Ouch

It is now safe to say the new dex is far from nerfed - just need new combos!

Obliterator Cult

Fearless. 5+ invulnerable save. Slow and Purposeful. Deep Strike.

Powerfist, lascannon, multimelta, plasmacannon, twinlinked plasmagun, twinlinked meltagun, twinlinked flamer.

So they're twin linking a weapon that by its nature is incapable of missing.

That's really quite funny, unless they further explain that it rerolls to-wound or somesuch.

Try BGB pg. 31, "Twin-Linked Template Weapons".

Thanks onlainari, just ixnay on the ointspay, Warseer was spanked for similar ...


On the lord, does he really have "lots of wargear"? There are no stat upgrades anymore, and no rerolls (master-crafted, spiky), right?

And you buy an ikon at a set points cost, right? No matter the squad size (ala fantasy)? Also, ACs are free, or just for cult marines?

- Salvage

the lord is about the same as the reg codex except WS 6 his base cost 100pts - 10 pts =?
comes with fearless, IC, and 5+ INV
they have taken out making your own custom lord/prince which i find is horrible in my opinion.
that seems to be the trend in this codex less variety more "pre set" things, not terribly a fan of the codex layout. But it's sad to know that this trend will effect my ork dex come December...

Keep the faith (in Gork & Mork anyway) CK, Phil Kelly is writing da orks so very very evil things could be afoot.

And anyway, I've only seen 2 warbosses of late - choppy (klaw + choppa) and shooty (rokkit-shoota, klaw, runts) - and they'll likely be at least that many options in the new book

- Salvage

Here's hoping the Orks don't suck, I'd hate to have to sell off the army.

Anyway, as to a real review of the Codex: It sucks.

Not because you can't make a powerful list from it, you can.

Not because you can't make a friendly/fun list from it, you can.

It sucks because it's so incredibly stupid.

Why would you ever take anything other than a Demon Prince for HQ? Ever? Granted before everyone and their mother had a DP, but now it's even more standard, and the options are so limited that they will ALL be the same. And what's more if your opponent is going for pure power, it'll be 2x Lash Princes with Wings.

And the Lash of Submission. Good lord, who wrote that rule Gav or Allessio? Anyone with half a brain saw that one power being the de-facto powerful choice for any Chaos army right then and there, within 5 seconds of reading it. And yet this gets through playtesting? Seriously?

Lords are terrible choices, especially with Demon Weapons. Sorcerers are actually decent, but again, why bother when you can just take the Prince instead?

Oblits win heavy, period. Defilers suck without indirect, though being somewhat cool with Fleet, it's still AV12 and it will still get shot down before seeing combat. Dreads while Elite now REALLY don't want to take ranged weapons because when they go nuts, they shoot friendly units too if they're close enough, great more choses eliminated.

Preds and Vindicators aren't bad choices, but with Demonic Possession getting nerfed, there goes the last really good "non skimmer" tank going down the tubes of usefulness in favor of Oblits.

Troops are a mixed bag, options are good but they're extremely expensive for many of the cult troops and normal marine squads with Marks are generally a bad idea, except Chaos undivided, err Glory to Chaos.... Being marked you're almost better off being a cult trooper. Yay.

Some choices aren't bad, but as usual there are some things which just stand out above the rest. If you thought Chaos armies were "standard" before, they're about to get more so in the future. Oh well, at least they can still stand up as a good army, just one with a lot less variety in what's "good".

Pile of gak.
The most ridiculous thing in it is the vanilla daemons and greater daemons. That makes me sick.

There's no master crafted weapons or spikey bits.

boo

I don't like all the AP3, They're MEQ they're not supposed to need it. Same as taking plasma guns, "I guess".

Demon weapons are OK, but you shouldn't lose your attacks on a 1. Still sucks to just get 1 extra attack and pay 40 points for the privledge. Losing a wound is bad enough.

Posted By onlainari on 08/06/2007 8:25 PM


0-1 Greater Demon 8 0 6 6 4 4 5 10 -

Fearless. 4+ invulnerable save.

Huh, Warseer was listing it as having WS9, I5 and S8.
But if you have the codex...

Nope, onlainari has it right.

And holy crap with these daemon weapons. For the same points (plus mark) cost you can, in addition to +D6 attacks:

- Get +1 S (undivided)
- Roll 2D6 attacks instead of 1D6 (Khorne)
- Wound with poison on a 4+, when you're already strength 4 (Nurgle)
- Get a 24" S4 AP3 Assault D6 shooting weapon, in addition to the standard +D6 attacks in CC (Tzeentch)
- Cause instant death (Slaanesh)

Without listing points values, Nurgle is the most expensive mark, with Tzeentch being 3/4s that, Khorne 1/2 and Slaanesh 1/4.

This is balanced?

Hell no it isn't balanced! Slaanesh is the first choice and the cheapest.

I love me some slaanesh, but now I am going to be viewed to be as cheesy as an iron warriors player even though I never touched siren?

bah!

I just don't get where I6 and potentially 9 attacks that cause instant death can be justified as being worth only a few points more than potentially 9 attacks at S5.

And don't get me started on Tzeentch...

But to clarify, it's not what these options do that annoys me. It's the lackluster alternatives that punish you for trying to have a themed force, or, as Hellfury said, the abuse Slaanesh and Tzeentch players are going to cop for being hamstrung with the best options.

Daemon Weapons arent a good choice. The Khorne one being a total joke weapon.

Twin Lighting Claws for 10 points less are a better choice.

Even if we ignore the DWs massive drawback, and take the average additional attacks to be 3.5, on average you're killing 2.17 marines a turn(2.89 if you're undivided). Compared to twin LCs 2 marines a turn.

Daemon Weapons look good on paper, but once people start playing with them they'll see.

Got ahold of the codex last night.

Wow... yeah, my Emperor's Children army really hasn't lost any of its bang... in fact, I think now it could be more potent. ...wow...

The codex is still a power gamer's delight... but now I need to figure out a way to differentiate my standard chaos marines from noise marines... repaint? Blarg...

Oh, by the way, did anyone else notice that the Rhino only lets one person shoot from the fire point? No special mention that two may, like the other rhinos of the imperium...

Cheers!

Posted By Hellfury on 08/07/2007 12:36 PM

I love me some slaanesh, but now I am going to be viewed to be as cheesy as an iron warriors player even though I never touched siren?

Twink!

 

But check it ... Slaanesh lord with claws on tit maggot = the speed lord rides on and on!  6 attaks @ init 6, rerolled ftw

- Salvage, who already misses his demonettes

Here is some humour for you.

Warseer is either lamenting the lose of power gaming, or applauding the balance inherent in this dex.

They may be right, as I havent seen the dex first hand yet, but I find it funny that "the shark pit" of Dakka, reknowned for being the cheesiest, is seething with the uber cheese thats coming out of this dex.

Time will tell I suppose.

Maybe I missed it but does the new codex have any info for normal human cultists for lists? I kinda like the new FW cultists and thought about doing a small nurgle force with them. At first I thought I could do it as a guard army but I already have a guard army and don't wanna just build the same thing... so it'd be nice to have something more chaosy Or is this something more like what would be in the demon book?

It's not in there. Apparently, Apocolypse might have something (not-tournament-official) to cover Lost and the Damned-style lists, but we'll see.

Don't hold your breath on the daemon book; it'd be unhealthy.

Posted By Hellfury on 08/07/2007 1:55 PM
Here is some humour for you.

Warseer is either lamenting the lose of power gaming, or applauding the balance inherent in this dex.

They may be right, as I havent seen the dex first hand yet, but I find it funny that "the shark pit" of Dakka, reknowned for being the cheesiest, is seething with the uber cheese thats coming out of this dex.

I really don't see how there's a loss for power gamers at all... I'm already seeing some devastating combos... it's just that they've changed from the last dex--Daemonbomb is gone, as are small squads of las/plas... In are rhino rushes of Thousand Sons with Hellfire bolters eliminating entire squads (9 marines = 18 shots = 12 hits = 6 wounds [goodbye combat squad] + Doombolt for however many you can fit in a flame template Str 5 Ap 3...)

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a middle ground... especially for those who favored slaanesh in the past. Sure, daemonettes are gone and Blastmasters are very expensive... but their HQ choices are just about as bad as Siren Princes of Doom... if not worse. I can already see a chaos Lord on a Steed of Slaanesh with a Daemonweapon charging a carnifex... just need one wound to instagib the mightiest Monstrous Creature in the Universe.

I'm not so sure about your proposed 1k Son Rhino rush. It's quite expensive, and it seems like there are better things for the list to do. I also don't see lots of people taking daemon weapons either, and am not impressed with the prospect of a tooled-up HQ killing a lone Carnifex (hardly the mightiest MC in the universe in any case, just the most ubiquitous).

I don't remember, are creates in the synapse bubble immune to instakill or is it just the synapse creatures themselves?

Someone might be able to explain this:

Why is it that the overwhelming feeling I get from this Chaos Codex, aside from blandness (thanks to Jervis taking over), is that there's nothing 'Chaotic' about this Codex.

Daemonic Upgrades? Gone.

Daemonic Vehicle Upgrades? Gone. All we've got is a nerfed Possessed (yes, deamons are inherently bad shots... thanks Gav) and all the loyalist ones at Dark Angel prices.

Cool Daemon Princes? Gone. Just three options, and we already know the best combo (Slaaneshi w/Lash & Wings).

Daemon Weapons? Nope. Useless.

All the colours of the Chaos Rainbow Legions? Nup. You're all just paintjobs.

Daemons, the defining part of Chaos? Gone. One statline to rule them all.

Varies squad sizes with differing weapon options? Eliminated. Now they have to take 10 men to get a heavy weapon, just like loyalist (well, DA and BA) Marines. How is that Chaotic?


I'm beginning to wonder if they didn't just open up the Word Document for the Dark Angel Codex and do a Find/Replace using 'Chaos Space Marine' to replace 'Dark Angel Space Marine', and then went and added a few unique units like (nerfed) Defilers and (further nerfed) Oblits.

BYE

Posted By Spacegoat on 08/07/2007 3:05 PM
I don't remember, are creates in the synapse bubble immune to instakill or is it just the synapse creatures themselves?

Everything in synapse range is immune to instant death "caused by weapons with a strength double the creature's toughness"

So the Slaanesh power should work just fine.

Okay, the Tzeentch rhino rush is a bit pricey, but considering the TRE chaos provides, one inconspicuous rhino is likely to slip through--especially if you have a couple other squads of standard CSM zipping around in rhinos and three defilers scurrying towards the enemy. Some may think it sleazy, but you don't have to tell your opponent who's in what vehicle, remember, so it becomes a shell game.

I may not have highlighted the most egregious aspects for powergamers to capitalize upon... but then again, i've only read the codex through once.

H.M.B.C.--Overall, they really did reduce the "chaos" in the dex... of course, the two elements in the codex with any sort of randomness seem to have people miffed--the daemon weapon & the possessed. It seems that people don't like uncontrollable factors in their codices. Of course, they've really eliminated the crunch that went with the fluff of all the legions... so that's kinda saddening.

Posted By Geddonight on 08/07/2007 7:00 PM

Posted By Spacegoat on 08/07/2007 3:05 PM
I don't remember, are creates in the synapse bubble immune to instakill or is it just the synapse creatures themselves?

Everything in synapse range is immune to instant death "caused by weapons with a strength double the creature's toughness"

So the Slaanesh power should work just fine.

Okay, the Tzeentch rhino rush is a bit pricey, but considering the TRE chaos provides, one inconspicuous rhino is likely to slip through--especially if you have a couple other squads of standard CSM zipping around in rhinos and three defilers scurrying towards the enemy. Some may think it sleazy, but you don't have to tell your opponent who's in what vehicle, remember, so it becomes a shell game.

I may not have highlighted the most egregious aspects for powergamers to capitalize upon... but then again, i've only read the codex through once.

H.M.B.C.--Overall, they really did reduce the "chaos" in the dex... of course, the two elements in the codex with any sort of randomness seem to have people miffed--the daemon weapon & the possessed. It seems that people don't like uncontrollable factors in their codices. Of course, they've really eliminated the crunch that went with the fluff of all the legions... so that's kinda saddening.

Hey Hommie,

You need to look at the Tyranid FAQ on the GW website. I think it is the second or third question on the left. Bugs under synapse can't be instant killed by any means what so ever.

Also, your "shell game" idea doesn't fly ether. You have to mark on your army list which squad is in what transport. Dude, you can't have four transports with a command squad in one and three tactical squads in the others and then as they get distroyed choose the one that survies as the one that has the command squad in it. That's crap!

Thats not exactly true all you have to do, is have a legal list, show your opponent the list/  If you write down before the game which unit is in which transport your legal even if you didn't tell your opponent. 

Now where in any rule does it say, you must tell your opponent which vehicle he should shoot at.

Also I am very unhappy with the current rule set as well, however I have decided to keep playing 40k.  I was quite tempted to quit the game when I was told that 1k sons would get AP3 guns but because of the massive point cost, and the loss of the 2 wounds, I will keep playing and just keep my eldar running happily along. 

P,S, Down with Jervis, Down With Allessio, damn the filthy bastards, the return of the vengeful Demons will be swift and bloody.  (If I got the wrong Authors throw stuff at them anyway before they get a hold of the Orks!!!)

P.P.S I am serious I expect daemonettes to be thrown at them if they ever show their face again. 

Just shoot the blue Rhino with eyes and lightning bolts on it.

KhaosBob

1) Ad hominem addresses aren't necessary. Please don't do it again.

2) Hrm... I'll admit I'm wrong about the Instant Death... haven't looked at the Tyranid FAQ in so long. Completely my bad. If the Slaaneshi Daemonweapon worked more like a force weapon (which does not use the "Instant Death" rule), then it would work. Still, the Slaanesh power works wonders against any other big critter with multiple wounds... or even just nasty space marine commanders.

3) Shell game: I never meant to imply that you switch which unit is in which rhino. I leave my rhino lids removable so I can put icons into each one to denote my squads. You just don't have to tell your opponent who's in which one (p. 81), so it becomes a numbers game. If you have 4 rhinos, they have a 1/4 chance of targeting the right one. I just said it seems sleazy because most people I encounter don't like the RAW about disclosing transport contents. I suppose by calling it a "shell game" that probably brought about negative connotations of cheating... that's my bad.

Cheers!

While you are correct on the language on page 81, very (VERY) few tournaments allow this sort of behavior; they require full disclosure, including which transport belongs to which squad.