CSM Codex Review?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**H.B.M.C.**

I turned that whole PDF into a word doc once by copying and pasting it all. Took forever because of all the formatting problems. Not fun!

BYE

**Phryxis**

We've been working on our own rulebook and Codices for over 2 years now...

Right, but not as your full time job, I presume?

Perhaps I'm underestimating the work in balancing, but as I said, my rules are for the most part done and that didn't take all that long. I'd guess it'd take 200 hours to build a good rulset and Codices.

Maybe that's way off, but that's just the rules, one guy working on it. Not fluff, not showcase armies, not models, etc.

Sure it's taken you two years, but you have other stuff to do. If you were working 8 hours a day on this stuff, would it have taken two years? Would it have even taken two months?

I'd love to see your rules, if you're willing to share them. When I get mine in a presentable state I'd certainly be willing to share them.

**mikhaila**

Well, it's interesting. About 30 of my customers, my son, two staff members, and myself, all poured over the new codex today. We all found stuff we didn't like..

..and about 8 of us are doing new chaos armies, with all the stuff we do like. The overall feeling is that yes, it's a lot of changes, and no one can run a demon bomb, or 4 heavy supports, or several other things that we used to see all the time. But there are a ton of units that just look like a lot of fun to paint and build, and very effective in the game. Plague marines are just flat out tough, and hard as hell to get rid of. T5, feel no pain, bolters, 2 combat weapons, and if you charge them, blight grenades negate your extra attack. 1k sons are also going to be tough to move, with a 4+ invulnerable, and a champion with a force weapon, that you can't single out. The sorcerer has two attacks, 3 with offhand, and can take a power that lets him reroll to hits and to wounds. The squad is the rock, he's the knife.

My favorite? Getting to bring out all my old marines on discs of Tzeentch, and proclaiming them marines on bikes with the mark of Tzeench. 5+ invulnerable when they aren't turbo boosting, 2+ when they are.

We are running a ruinous powers campaign starting tomorrow. Players can use any build they want, and count as playing for whatever power is most represented in your army. You can switch sides anytime you want by adjusting your army. No score is kept for the players, just for the 5 flavors of chaos. If your army is more Khorne than anything else, your win goes to Khorne, etc. 5 for a win, 3 for a loss, 2 for a tie (because ties suck, someone wasn't trying hard enough!)

**Phryxis**

Plague marines are just flat out tough, and hard as hell to get rid of. T5, feel no pain, bolters, 2 combat weapons, and if you charge them, blight grenades negate your extra attack.

Yeah, it's ridiculous, but I think a lot of people (myself included) will just work around GW's shoddy rules and keep painting and paying. I've always wanted to do some Plague Marines, and from what you're describing, it sounds like they're worth building an army around.

**tegeus-Cromis**

mikhaila:

My favorite? Getting to bring out all my old marines on discs of Tzeentch, and proclaiming them marines on bikes with the mark of Tzeench. 5+ invulnerable when they aren't turbo boosting, 2+ when they are.

Yikes! That's really something. How much would such a unit run to, though?

If your army is more Khorne than anything else, your win goes to Khorne, etc. 5 for a win, 3 for a loss, 2 for a tie (because ties suck, someone wasn't trying hard enough!)

Sounds like a tournament recently discussed. I think everyone agreed that it was a silly idea. . . then again, this is a campaign, so I suppose people won't mind as much. Still, I really disagree that ties should be discouraged--for every tie that results from both players playing too cautiously, there's another tie that resulted from the losing player making canny decisions and fighting back to earn a draw.

**puree**

Posted By mikhaila on 08/11/2007 8:52 PM

We are running a ruinous powers campaign starting tomorrow. Players can use any build they want, and count as playing for whatever power is most represented in your army. You can switch sides anytime you want by adjusting your army. No score is kept for the players, just for the 5 flavors of chaos. If your army is more Khorne than anything else, your win goes to Khorne, etc. 5 for a win, 3 for a loss, 2 for a tie (because ties suck, someone wasn't trying hard enough!)

That sounds just .. bizarre.

"mm, this looks a bad match up, I might be able to eek out a draw for a couple of hours effort, or I can throw the game on turn1 scoring more points and get another game against someone I can beat, though that game will be the same when that opponent thinks like I just did."

**milesteg**

Posted By Phryxis on 08/11/2007 11:47 AM

"Hell, I could have done a lot better than this! What were they thinking?"

I'm actually working on my own version of the 40K rules right now. Same models and fluff, similar concepts, but different rules.

I've got to say, this quote is beginning to occupy more and more of my thinking.

My rules are far from done, and while I've certainly recognized that it's a task that requires careful thought, I'm actually pretty amazed at how easy it really is. I've got about two thirds of the core rules written, and it's taken me about ten hours of focused attention to do it.

Now, these rules will no doubt need playtesting, fixing, clarification, photos of examples, etc. etc. etc. That won't be quick. But all I hear about from Jervis is how hard they work over there. I don't know what "hard work" looks like in the UK, but in the US I'd say it's at least a 50 hour week. At that rate, I think I could have a new ruleset, with example photos and a nice looking layout, all the army lists, basically everything you'd need to play, in a month. 200 hours. As one guy. And better than what GW has now.

It's literally amazing.

I'm not trying to say I'm some sort of genius, either. I think any of the guys here who really pay attention to the rules, guys like Ed Maule, yakface, etc. could do the same thing I am.

Think about what GW puts into a Codex. It's basically a list, which you could write in a single night if you didn't plan to playtest it (which they apparently don't). Then it's some fluff, much of it recycled. Then it's art and photos of models. The art and photos are the nicest part, and the design team has nothing to do with those. The only part that they're really involved in, really necessary for, is the list, and that LITERALLY would take a day to do at the quality levels they're producing.

Heh; HBMC, myself and a few others in our gaming group have been doing a nigh-identical thing with the Warhammer 40,000 Revisited Project (www.revisitedproject.org). It is true; the majority of the core changes we have made to the rules can be summarised in a few pages (and only that because of the tweaked damage tables, etc). Most of the work comes down to rewriting the Codexen, but really, you get something like a 50%+ increase in fun with a few very, very simple changes:

* squad picks two targets (primary and secondary), allocates weapons to each, roll Ld test. If failed, only fire at primary. If passed, shoot at both as per nominations. We call it Fire Control, and it is fantastic;

* vehicles move in 8"/16"/24" increments; standard vehicle moves 8", fires all weapons, at different targets. Over 8" to 16", fire all defensive weaponry. Fast vehicles move that up a notch each (16" to fire everything, 24" to fire all defensive);

* Twin-Linked weapons get 2 hits on an initial roll To Hit of a 6 (just because it is really, really, fun :-));

* models block LOS more or less literally (modified magic cylinder approach; works extremely well, incorporates a modified version of Screening (of sorts), etc);

* models (such as infantry) move 6", can choose not to shoot and may then run another 3"; Fleet = flat 6";

* walkers run 12" and can fire everything;

* most MCs get Fleet in the Codices (HTH Carnifexes work);

* Rapid Fire weapons can be shot once at max range, twice at 12", irrespective of movement;

* Heavy weapons can be fired on the move with a -1 BS modifier;

* Hull Down at 50%, works like 3rd ed, but overcome on To Hit rolls of a 6 (ie roll 6 To Hit, may penetrate normally if rolled; same vs skimmers moving fast).

That's just a quick summary of some of our most important changes and indeed, if you just implement these, the fun factor increases enormously. The game is more fluid, more army-building options become available almost instantly (I can split fire; mixed weapon squads can work!) and the "screening" rules mean that the silliness of Ld-based target selection is fixed, ensuring that you can PROTECT fragile things (unlike now...). Some changes are really important (Fire Control), others just add spice (we love our Twin-Linking change), but really, even if Revisited were no more balanced than GW's offerings, it is so, so, much more fun.

Fixing the glaring stuff is really easy; the work comes in getting the fine balance between things. We've been at it on-and-off for a few years, and it can be surprising how much work can be involved :-)

That all being said, good luck. GW won't write good rules until there is a paradigm shift in their thinking. As one of the recent Standard Bearer articles tells us, for them, it is centrally about building and painting Citadel miniatures. Fair enough. However, until the rules are accorded a similar priority, they will always remain a means to an end....

To get people to buy, build and paint miniatures. That is their goal (ultimately) and the rules are a means to that end. I don't think that Jervis cackles in his secret underground den, devising ways to confound and befudlle us, but until the rules being finely balanced and tournament worthy is an end in and of itself, it will always remain the lesser brother of the greater priority; getting people into the models.....

Edit: Heh; just read HBMC's posts...that'll teach me for replying before reading the thread through...

**milesteg**

Posted By Phryxis on 08/11/2007 8:12 PM

We've been working on our own rulebook and Codices for over 2 years now...

Right, but not as your full time job, I presume?

Perhaps I'm underestimating the work in balancing, but as I said, my rules are for the most part done and that didn't take all that long. I'd guess it'd take 200 hours to build a good rulset and Codices.

Maybe that's way off, but that's just the rules, one guy working on it. Not fluff, not showcase armies, not models, etc.

Sure it's taken you two years, but you have other stuff to do. If you were working 8 hours a day on this stuff, would it have taken two years? Would it have even taken two months?

I'd love to see your rules, if you're willing to share them. When I get mine in a presentable state I'd certainly be willing to share them.

Definitely part time; sometimes life got in the way and not much happened for a few months at a time :-)

**mikhaila**

That sounds just .. bizarre.

"mm, this looks a bad match up, I might be able to eek out a draw for a couple of hours effort, or I can throw the game on turn1 scoring more points and get another game against someone I can beat, though that game will be the same when that opponent thinks like I just did."

You've got to remember a couple of things. I've had my stores for 20 years, run tons of leagues like this, and seen hundreds of games played in this similar sort of scoring system. Trust me when I say the rule is there for a reason. For every hardfought tie that occurs in a well thought out game, we used to get 20 ties that occurred between newers players that "don't want to assault because I might lose", "oops, store closing, guess its a tie", etc etc etc. This league isn't about working hard for a tie, it's about chaos throwing their forces at each other in mutual destruction, and seeing who has a models standing at the end. Score is kept for the powers, not the player. You play Khorne 3 times, lose, and Khorne is at the bottom? Hell, drop that loser and throw some nurgle icons in your army. GO Go Papa Nurgle.

This isn't a well run, carefully scored tounament, with subtle rules. It's an exuse for a couple of dozen guys to just throw new units on the table, test them out, have fun, and not care about the win. My first army today is going to be berzerkers, khorne bikers, a lord with demon weapon on juggernaught, and a dread. Tomorrow on running thousand sons, and two princes with the lash.

**Grot 6**

After looking over the book, I am now convinced that GW is trying, and in a couple of more Codex books, they will have it.
I see an effort, but a halfhearted one. As for going back to the "Days of Old", I see the company fighting its nature, reluctantly making concesions, and eventually getting back to playing a fun game. Hope they can do it before they run more of the worker bees out of work.

- Combine this train of thought with the "anticipated" Apocalypse, where you will have the pleasure of playing, not just a couple of space marines, but you will be able to play GREEN space marines against DIFFERENT SHADES OF BLACK ones. WHEEEE, FTW!!!

- The thought process behind the new Codex tells me that I want a job at GW, where they have the longest lunch hours in the buisness, and thier workday can be reported to be about ten minutes to get in the door, ten minutes to get the coffee on, and three thirty minute bathroom breaks where the real work gets done.

Seriously though.

- Posessed? Mutants? Demonic powers? Cultists? Where are the choices? The book is set up almost the same as the space marine book, with spikes. wheee!!!

- The point costs seem a little skewared. the points are based so that you buy the higher prices then for picking the quality of the unit.

- We seem to be going back to the old way of basing an army around named heros.

- Equipment seems lame. A whip that can pin, wow.

- Powergaming at its finest. I was a little impressed with the new book, until I opened it, and remembered that it took as long as it did to come out.

-Units that just scream... Meh!!! Standard marines that look exactly like loyalists, Lack of imagination with the choices, The lack of effort in the writing of this book astounds me.

-The posessed just need more sprue choices, not just new models that look like crap. The " Ruinous powers" look prettier then the Loyalist marines. The only thing they are missing is a pink tutu.

Will the real space marine please stand up!!!

Good try GW. Go back and try again.

**Grot 6**

On a lighter note,

I have pulled out a bunch of Cadians and started painting them. Its amazing what one finds when one moves.

**mikhaila**

Played a game today. We made our lists in about 10 minutes, threw them on the table, rolled up an Omega level recon. My studly khorne boys won the day.

Flying DP, MOK

Lord, Jugger, Daemonsword of khorne

10 Terminators, champ with pf, 2x reaper

5 berzerkers with champ

6 bikers, MOK, champ with pf

I won th day, but with only 4 bikes, and a terminator champ left on the board. Highlight of the match was my Lord with 1 wound left charging a rhino so that I could get the extra 6" of movement and set up a turn 6 charge. Rolled a 1 on the daemon weapon and killed myself.

Who loses CC to a rhino and dies?????)

Was great fun.

**H.B.M.C.**

I'd be surprised if anyone wanted to take the Khornate Daemon Weapon. It increases your chances of wounding yourself from 1/6 to 11/36 - nearly double. Seems like a bad trade off for a few extra S4 attacks.

BYE

**ShumaGorath**

I like the new codex alot (waits to be shot). I'm also not seeing the sheer power of daemon princes with the whip. If something with t5 a 3+ save and only 4 wounds gets that close to my army its likely to die very very quickly no matter what army I am playing. That is if it doesnt die first turn. Its not like it can hide in a squad. Defensively its not a bad power but unless your running alot of sorcerers and roll well it will stall the enemy 1 turn at best. Hell a hormugaunt or any jetpack troop would laugh at the attempt.

I'd be surprised if anyone wanted to take the Khornate Daemon Weapon. It increases your chances of wounding yourself from 1/6 to 11/36 - nearly double. Seems like a bad trade off for a few extra S4 attacks.

No but an average 11 attacks with a str 4 and ws 6 (if you dont take a juggernaut or something) all ignoring armour saves is a pretty ludicrous sum.

With a juggernaut your up to killing 5.3 marines in a single assault with a single unit on average rolls. Of course your not going to be well protected with a juggernaut but hey thats a trade off.

**whoadirty**

I've seen Plague Marines referred to several times on this thread as T5. Is this actually T5 or T4(5)?

**ShumaGorath**

Posted By whoadirty on 08/12/2007 9:07 PM
I've seen Plague Marines referred to several times on this thread as T5. Is this actually T5 or T4(5)?

T4 (5)

The mark of nurgle is included in the profile but they are still base toughness 4.

**whoadirty**

For a minute there I was getting super excited about them - 5/18 chance for a SM Lascannon to kill one? Yes please!

**ShumaGorath**

Posted By whoadirty on 08/12/2007 9:14 PM
For a minute there I was getting super excited about them - 5/18 chance for a SM Lascannon to kill one? Yes please!

Im not sure I follow the logic. You still need to roll a 3+ to hit and a 2+ to kill one.

**whoadirty**

Sorry. This was IF the PMs were T5. Then the FNP would give them an save. Moot point since they are actually T4(5).

**Abadabadoobaddon**

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/12/2007 8:09 PM
I'd be surprised if anyone wanted to take the Khornate Daemon Weapon. It increases your chances of wounding yourself from 1/6 to 11/36 - nearly double. Seems like a bad trade off for a few extra S4 attacks.

Nonsense! What true devotee of the Blood God wouldn't want a weapon which has a nearly 1 in 3 chance each round of making the bearer do absolutely nothing (except wound himself)? This rule is fun for everyone because it is chaotic!!! Yay!

Besides, Khorne Lords just aren't as spritely as the younger berserkers. They can't just flip out all the time. Hacking enemies apart is hard work! Sometimes they have to take a break and just stab themselves for a bit.

**killerdbz**

Played an 1850 kill eachother match a few days ago with the new codex.
My list:
Chaos Lord (MoS, Demonic Mount, Demon Weapon)
Chaos Sorcerer (MoS, Lash, Wings)

5 Noise Marines (1 Blastmaster)

10 Noise Marines (Champion with Fist, 9 Sonic Blasters)

2 Defilers

I think that’s about right. My buddy was playing something along the lines of(not 100% sure):

Demon Prince (MoN, Wings, Rot)

Chaos Sorcerer (MoN, Winds of Chaos, maybe Term Armor)

Hand full of Chaos Termies(A few Lightning Claws)

Chaos Space Marines (Icon of Nurgle, Champ with a Fist and Melta Guns in a Rhino)

Plague Marines (Champ with a Fist in a Rhino)

Once again don’t have an exact list on what we had, we made the lists on what we have and thought would work/be fun. We play to have fun so don’t be too hard on the lists or tactics

At the very beginning Lash proved to the both of us how unbelievably destructive it is going to be. Lashing squads into lines so you only have to fight what you want is painful. With all the extra distance a mounted lord can cover, it was easy to pull the range I needed to get into combat. I removed his sorcerer on the first turn. Also destroyed 3 of the 4 Rhinos and stunned the last one. The Plague Marines got torn apart after that by the Defilers.

He spent his first turn recovering from that onslaught and I could already tell he was thinking of throwing in the towel. He did fairly little in his turn, moved what he could into cover, combat went to my Lord who killed more Termies.

Next turn was more of the same, I still wanted to see what I could do with Lash so I bunched a squad of CSMs together and nailed it with a Defiler and Blastmaster. You can guess from there. Then I decided that I wasn’t gonna ruin my buddies fun, tossed my Sorcerer into the fray, lost my Lord, and let his Demon Prince get close.

The game was a pretty slaughter from there. His Demon Prince wreaked havoc once it got close enough, killed both Defilers, and a handful of squads(also made 5 5+ invuls in a row lucky bastard). Game ended up being a draw. However we both agreed that had I simply backed up and fired each turn, I could have won without losing a model.

I can’t say I am really happy with this codex. It really opens the door for power lists. Takes away all the customization and fun of making a Chaos list. Also what does a former noise marine player do with the 6 extra blastmasters he has?

**OverchargeThis!**

Good BatRep. I don't think the lash allows one to do more than move the whole unit from its present positioning to one 2D6" away. So bunching models, based on the wording I have, isn't something I think is possible. Probably have to wait for a FAQ.

The slannesh fire support squads look pretty decent. My experience with combat squads says fivers are pretty survivable if supported properly.

**Da Boss**

There's a big argument going on about that over in tactics.
Some maintain you have to keep formation, others state that formations have never been part of 40K and that bunching is possible by moving a model back and forth etc.
It'll be FAQ'ed in a few years, probably.

**Schepp himself**

Lash of Submission seems nasty (isn't there a similar power in Fantasy, doesn't work with fearless troops, as far as I can remember), but against some armies (Eldar, Marines and Tyranids) it won't work as good.

The other stuff seems...streamlined, yeah. For me it doesn't strike me as interesting at all. I mean, like I said after the initial rumours, the Codex is more like a Chapter Codex of the Space Marines and not a real Chaos Army. I would have liked some Cultist in there Lost and the Damned style or unorthodox options like combi weapons for whole squads for example.

I feel sorry for the Chaos players that just wanted to have a different army and are now that restricted. The power gamers will find some other toys to play, I'm sure.

Greets
Schepp himself

**Chaoslord**

The fantasy spell is titillating delusions (iirc), it's basically "I place a spot on unit's LoS, and the unit will march towards it as fast as they can". It's certainly annoying and works vs everyone (even immune to psych. troops), altough unlike vs Lash in 40K, pretty much everybody in FB has magic defense, so they can usually cope with it.

**Razor Gator**

Posted By ShumaGorath on 08/12/2007 8:19 PM

No but an average 11 attacks with a str 4 and ws 6 (if you dont take a juggernaut or something) all ignoring armour saves is a pretty ludicrous sum.

With a juggernaut your up to killing 5.3 marines in a single assault with a single unit on average rolls. Of course your not going to be well protected with a juggernaut but hey thats a trade off.

The actual average, considering you won't attack on any 1s, is 8.333.
Twin Lightning Claws gives you 5 attacks that re-roll to wound.

Doing the math, the average for the Daemon weapon(at S4) is 2.78 kills and the average for the TLC is 2.5 kills. Then take into account the TLC are 10 points cheaper and wont wound you nearly 1/3rd of the time.

It's a terrible, terrible weapon.

**H.B.M.C.**

My review is done. It's 15 pages long and just shy of 7000 words.

Should I post it here or in a new thread?

BYE

**syr8766**

New Thread! New Thread! New Thread!

**Alpharius**

New thread please! (Can't wait!)