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Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/07/2007 6:27 PM

Varies squad sizes with differing weapon options? Eliminated. Now they have to take 10 men to get a heavy weapon, just like loyalist (well, DA and BA) Marines. How is that Chaotic?

It's chaotic because they can't split into combat squads like the loyalists can.

Posted By skyth on 08/07/2007 9:40 PM

It's chaotic because they can't split into combat squads like the loyalists can.

Pfft! Of course! What was I thinking.

Having to take mandatory 10-strong Chaos units to get heavy weapons is totally different to having to take mandatory 10-strong Loyalist Marine units to get heavy weapons. How could I be so blind.

I hereby conceed the argument and will not mention it again.

BYE

Geddonight, I don't see any ad hominem attacks anywhere. Are you sure you're not misusing the word? (Telling you that what you're saying is crap is not an ad hominem attack, btw.)

Any mention of special characters?

Short question: Is Nurgle´s rot still available? 

Or did it get dropped along with all other deamon stuff...

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/07/2007 11:48 PM

Posted By skyth on 08/07/2007 9:40 PM

It's chaotic because they can't split into combat squads like the loyalists can.

Pfft! Of course! What was I thinking.

Having to take mandatory 10-strong Chaos units to get heavy weapons is totally different to having to take mandatory 10-strong Loyalist Marine units to get heavy weapons. How could I be so blind.

I hereby conceed the argument and will not mention it again.

BYE

Dude...wait, what?

Taking 6 marines to get a lascannon is also not chaotic...

And I don't see how you can argue obliterators are nerfed, you said they were overcosted before because they died like a guardsman in cover (to a lascannon). They die just as easily according to that.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/07/2007 6:27 PM
Someone might be able to explain this:

Why is it that the overwhelming feeling I get from this Chaos Codex, aside from blandness (thanks to Jervis taking over), is that there's nothing 'Chaotic' about this Codex.

Daemonic Upgrades? Gone.

Daemonic Vehicle Upgrades? Gone. All we've got is a nerfed Possessed (yes, deamons are inherently bad shots... thanks Gav) and all the loyalist ones at Dark Angel prices.

Cool Daemon Princes? Gone. Just three options, and we already know the best combo (Slaaneshi w/Lash & Wings).

Daemon Weapons? Nope. Useless.

All the colours of the Chaos Rainbow Legions? Nup. You're all just paintjobs.

Daemons, the defining part of Chaos? Gone. One statline to rule them all.

Varies squad sizes with differing weapon options? Eliminated. Now they have to take 10 men to get a heavy weapon, just like loyalist (well, DA and BA) Marines. How is that Chaotic?


I'm beginning to wonder if they didn't just open up the Word Document for the Dark Angel Codex and do a Find/Replace using 'Chaos Space Marine' to replace 'Dark Angel Space Marine', and then went and added a few unique units like (nerfed) Defilers and (further nerfed) Oblits.

BYE

Extreme Ditto.  All the variability is gone. Even with marks remaining and the Lash prince combo it feels "Chaos Lite"

While I can completely understand anger and frustration at seeing once good rules-wise models like Demons get the ultimate shaft, and things like Sonic Havocs/Termies get shafted, I'm totally not agreeing with the whole idea of "We're just like Loyalists!"

The last chaos dex that everyone loved so much was exactly that, except you had the wonderful power of things like Demons & Princes to combine with the inherent advantages of an MEQ army.

You still have vast differences compared to the loyalists, the lists are near nothing alike other than the fact that you're limited to having a second special/heavy wepaon without having a set number of guys per squad. Just because you're chaos doesn't mean that you should be allowed small squads with heavy weapons.

Yes on one hand it totally sucks to have your army nerfed to hell while other lists like Zilla & Mech Eldar fly around, especially when the regular SM dex hasn't been nerfed yet, but at the same time I do agree with the idea that the cheese needed to be toned down. The only part that I think sucks is that CSM's and others will feel the nerf while we wait 5+ years for a new Nid and Eldar dex, and probably that long for a SM Dex.

Yes, you got nerfed, harder than it should have been, but show me the loyalist armies where you can take monsterous creatures for HQ (x3), have dreads that go crazy, possessed marines, have marines with T4(5), all with assault weapons, AP3 bolters + S&P + Inv saves, or all the other varied options that are in troops. The marks alone make the Chaos dex play completely differently, not counting things like the Defiler, Oblits, Princes, and everything else that makes the dex "Chaos". It's still Chaos, just less effective than it was before.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I think the codex is a bad release (no sacred numbers even mentioned in the fluff section? WTF?), but I don't like hearing that the codex is just like loyalists.  I just got nerfed like the last loyalist codex's, that's about where the similarities end.

Posted By jfrazell on 08/08/2007 6:00 AM
Even with marks remaining ...

But with no affect on army design, do the marks / ikons matter all that much anymore?  I play Undivided - which used to mean MoCU on everybody, not taking cult marines from every legion like now (which isn't a bad thing, just a different take on the Undivided philosophy I suppose) - and at this point I'm just treating the marks as replacements for the demon gifts my lord can no longer take.  MoK = mutation, MoN = resilience, MoT & MoS = just more stat boosters too. 

Pity you can't mix and match to make a lord worth something at all

- Salvage

Posted By onlainari on 08/08/2007 5:56 AM

Taking 6 marines to get a lascannon is also not chaotic...

And I don't see how you can argue obliterators are nerfed, you said they were overcosted before because they died like a guardsman in cover (to a lascannon). They die just as easily according to that.

No, taking 6 Marines with a Lascannon is not Chaotic. Having to follow the same rules as loyalist Marines to get a heavy weapon, when Chaos does not have such structure within their fluff, that annoys me. Loyalist getting Veteran skills, yet Chaos Marines not getting them. That annoys me. Daemonic upgrades being taken away from the forces that follow Chaos. That annoys me.

And Oblits have been nerfed, again. Back when the second 3rd Ed Chaos Codex came out, they were S5 T5 and dangerous. Worth the 75 you paid for them each. Then they nerfed 'em with T4(5). Then they got rid of screening and introduced Leadership based shooting, so you couldn't even hide them - something that wouldn't be a huge problem if they were T5 as opposed to T4(5). Now they're not even T4(5) and they've taken most of their weapons away, made them HS, and made them more expensive.

You'd still take them, as they can pump out a lot of Lascannon fire, but they're the best of a bad bunch. It's like that old saying:

Even if you win at the Special Olympics, at the end of the day you're still slowed.

Oblits may be a 'good choice' when compared to the other choices Chaos has in that area, but it doesn't make them a good choice.

BYE

Of course the most un-chaotic aspect is having to take an agreed upon point level army.

Chaos should have to take a random amount of points every game.

::Removing tongue from cheek::

Thier all just marines anymore. No chaos, Slanesh, Khorne, Papa Nurgle, or Tzeench just marines with different colors. This is the new more better GW.

To complain about having to take 10 men to get the heavy is kind of funny. Most have been complaining about the min maxing that goes on in the marine squads. In DA they use the 5/10 man combat squad formula to get rid of it. There were lots of complaints, and I saw quite a few people propose that instead they should do what they just did in the Chaos dex. They just can't win

Depending on which source you went by, T4(5) was how Oblits were originally. So not exactly nerfed, just corrected so all codexes were the same.

It's funny that no one has ever noticed before that Chaos IS just marines with daemons... But like has been stated, there are a lot of options in the book that make them quite different from all the marine chapters. It's all in what you want to see. The flavor of the complete legions is gone for now, but that is about it.

I do agree that this codex might have options that are just as bad, or unbalanced as before. But, until it comes out and starts getting played we won't know for certain how this army performs. What we do know is that C:SM, Mech Eldar and Zilla nids all need to be fixed, and soon, otherwise any balancing they do is all for naught.

Chaos does not equal randomness in the 40K universe. I'm gonna say it one time only.

But I feel a lot of the character has been removed and what's left is bland. Bland bland bland.
Surely just-turned-traitor space marines would still use all their old equipment? And shouldn't there be some guys in scout armour in there?
Nonsensical list.

Ok,

So the Lash of submission is a Psychic power...

Only the races without a Psychic Hood equivalent are truly screwed against it - everyone else just blocks the power effect as lonbg as they can keep their psychic hood alive.

So we'll keep on seeing Inquisitors with psychic hoods in every IG army, and SM librarians everywhere. Great...

Otherwise though - I kinda like the sound of the codex. Maybe it's just me - but I always thought that there were a LOT of broken options in the old Chaos 'dex.

You have to say this for GW - they finally figured out their way of reducing broken options . Let's say 10% of options in any GW codex are broken - then if you reduce the number of options significantly - then then that 10% means there are fewer actual broken options See - it makes sense!!!!

To all the people saying - "i got nerfed and the normal space marines are better now" - I really only have one thing to say. GW *HAD* to start somewhere. Someone's codex was going to have to be one of the first ones hit really hard. The Eldar lost oodles of options with their codex (Craftworld lists and special rules); but besides the uberfalcon - it's not bad at all. The Dark Angels and Blood Angels both got hit pretty solidly (I still don't think that was a nerf as much as a "major change")

The Chaos Codex *did* have many broken options that needed changing/reducing. And the Chaos 3.5 'dex *was* one of the power codexes of the recent past.

Now - the funny thing is that this codex has a lot of the things Chaos players WERE looking for: Force weapons for sorcerors, better psychic powers, Moving Dreads to elite, etc.

Time will tell. I feel sorry for the people whose armies will have to change radically, but frankly - that happens with every codex update. (my poor, poor, Dark Angles army is nearly unrecognizable...)

Just take solace in the fact that you are not alone - and that the wheel will come 'round again.

Posted By Hellfury on 08/07/2007 1:55 PM
Warseer is either lamenting the lose of power gaming, or applauding the balance inherent in this dex.

Which goes to show you how many truely awful players must be there.  They can't even see how the old "cheese" has been replaced by new "cheese."  And frankly, the Lash is far more deserving of the cheese label than daemonbombs and such.  I guess it's the new Siren? 

Good god, how did the Lash get through even cursory playtesting? 

Time will tell. Hard to see how powerful anything really is until it shows up on the board. I will agree that right now there are some options that just stick way out, but thing usually change after the release of a codex.

Really? You think that when it shows up on the board, the ability to move enemy units will be somehow less useful?

I dunno, I think i'm pretty good at gauging what things can do. It's one of the ways I pick my units. (Not the only way. I pick common goblins over night goblins because damnit they're common, and the models are nicer.)

mixing marks? what are the limitations on that.
say slaanshi lord and berzerkers

skkipper, there are no such limitations.

Which makes loads of sense and is very fluffy of course.

yep lash and berzerkers for the win

Posted By Da Boss on 08/08/2007 9:50 AM
Which makes loads of sense and is very fluffy of course.

It sure is.  Haven't you heard they're "giving the game back to the players?" 

Which is great, because I was really annoyed when Jervis climbed the walls of my building like a cat burglar, broke in and stole it out of my closet.

And despite the ranting, gnashing of teeth and general discord with the codex as a whole, 98% of dakkites will still buy the codex and gw will just smile.

Posted By Cyric036 on 08/08/2007 10:28 AM
And despite the ranting, gnashing of teeth and general discord with the codex as a whole, 98% of dakkites will still buy the codex and gw will just smile.

Do you really mean that?  Or do you mean, "98% of chaos playing dakkites will still buy the codex and gw will just smile"?

Posted By Cyric036 on 08/08/2007 10:28 AM
And despite the ranting, gnashing of teeth and general discord with the codex as a whole, 98% of dakkites will keep leaving 40k to to play other games and Tom Kirby will just smile while firing more people    .

 Fixed your typo.

I should never have sold off my 3rd ed. Codex. Now I've got to figure out how to convert the rules for all my 40k armies to No Limits, 5150 and Battlefield Evolution. Sigh.

Not a guy with a codex but its rumored to be the nurgle psychic power but it works a bit differently. Apparently you pick a unit (range not sure) and roll a d6 for each model. On a 4+ they take a S3 AP- hit. Yeah nice against the few armies running 20+ models in a unit but othwersie kidna meh as far as psychic powers go. Ohh and it probably costs the same as lash of submission...

Make a test even if your in close combat, all enemy models with in 6 inches of the caster take a str 3 ap - hit

Posted By Geddonight on 08/07/2007 8:53 PM
KhaosBob

1) Ad hominem addresses aren't necessary. Please don't do it again.

2) Hrm... I'll admit I'm wrong about the Instant Death... haven't looked at the Tyranid FAQ in so long. Completely my bad. If the Slaaneshi Daemonweapon worked more like a force weapon (which does not use the "Instant Death" rule), then it would work. Still, the Slaanesh power works wonders against any other big critter with multiple wounds... or even just nasty space marine commanders.

3) Shell game: I never meant to imply that you switch which unit is in which rhino. I leave my rhino lids removable so I can put icons into each one to denote my squads. You just don't have to tell your opponent who's in which one (p. 81), so it becomes a numbers game. If you have 4 rhinos, they have a 1/4 chance of targeting the right one. I just said it seems sleazy because most people I encounter don't like the RAW about disclosing transport contents. I suppose by calling it a "shell game" that probably brought about negative connotations of cheating... that's my bad.

Cheers!

You must be a young one!

Hommie is short for Home Boy. Nothing negative mint. God, Im showing my age!

Posted By Toreador on 08/08/2007 8:35 AM
Most have been complaining about the min maxing that goes on in the marine squads

Depending on which source you went by, T4(5) was how Oblits were originally. So not exactly nerfed, just corrected so all codexes were the same.

1. This isn't about min/maxing. This is about having to follow the same rules as loyalists when Chaos should be completely different to that. Chaos do not follow the Codex Astartes, so why do they need 10-man Codex squads to get a HW? Why can't they get a single heavy or special weapon at less than 10-men.
2. They were Toughness 5. I have the first printing of the Chaos Codex, they were Toughness 5, and there was no mention of Daemonic Resilience. That rule wasn't 'corrected' in an FAQ and subsequent reprintings, it was changed.

And no, Chaos are not just Marines with Daemons.

BYE