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H.B.M.C. is correct. Obliterators were T5. No FAQ that I recall either. The first time I noticed it was when a buddy was using a reprint.

Can we get some info on:

1. Special Characters;

2. Psyhic Powers? Are there just generic psyhic powers, or ones that go with the Marks of Chaos?;

3. Do Greater/ Lesser Daemons take a spot on the FOC? Lesser Daemon Stats? and

4. Are CSM Rhinos the same pts costs as the DA's? (35pts I think?)

 Never mind, i have all the answers I need now.

Mat

HBMC I don't think the need 10 man for a heavy weapon has anything to do with "need[ing] 10-man Codex squads to get a HW".

They are not "follow[ing] the Codex Astartes".

The fact is, heavy weapons are in short supply. You can't give lots of heavy weapons out because they don't actually have them to give out.

GW represent this buy saying you need 10 men for a heavy weapon.

People used to say
The problem with this analysis is that a Lord shouldn't ever have 20 marines and 4 lascannons.

Posted By onlainari on 08/08/2007 9:40 PM
The problem with this analysis is that a Lord shouldn't ever have 20 marines and 4 lascannons.

Why not?

Lascannons are easier to make than marines.

Yeah, they give lascannons to guardsmen!

Posted By onlainari on 08/08/2007 9:40 PM
The fact is, heavy weapons are in short supply.

No they're not. They're as common as dirt.

Plasma Guns are considered rare in 40K, so much so that they can only afford to equip every Guard squad with one of them, rather than every man in a Guard Squad with one of them. That's rare in 40K - where you can't give them to everyone.

And your argument makes no sense. Why does the Chaos Lord have to have 10 guys before he'll give 'em a gun. Is it some sort of union restriction? Why would he not make up some small units with Lascannons, and gather the majority of his men together into a forward assault led by the Lord himself.

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/09/2007 12:28 AM
And your argument makes no sense. Why does the Chaos Lord have to have 10 guys before he'll give 'em a gun. Is it some sort of union restriction? 

  Well, I seem to recall from the old 2nd edition Codex that the Red Corsairs ran a union shop.  USHS, Local 7, IIRC.  Must be the new emphasis on renegades. 

"Plasma Guns are considered rare in 40K, so much so that they can only afford to equip every Guard squad with one of them, rather than every man in a Guard Squad with one of them. That's rare in 40K - where you can't give them to everyone."

Actually plasma is rarer than that. Many Guard armies dont have them at all. However the codex doesnt back up the fluff by adding restrictions on how many you can take and which regiments can have them. So every regiment comes from the odd few planets that have them in reasonably plentiful supply.
Plasma guns should have a supplementary restriction of 1:250 pts of Guard, or a doctrine point. No restriction for Marines though.

Despite what the local high school too-cool-for-school rebels think, real renegades love order and would do anything to uphold the law. They firmly believe in deeply-set codes of ethics and behavior too. Some of them even go so far as to don a secret identity and subdue criminals. They do these thankless deeds in a futile and romantic effort to support the regime that has abandoned them.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/09/2007 12:28 AM

And your argument makes no sense. Why does the Chaos Lord have to have 10 guys before he'll give 'em a gun. Is it some sort of union restriction? Why would he not make up some small units with Lascannons, and gather the majority of his men together into a forward assault led by the Lord himself.

Purely a game balance mechanic, m8. GW's trying to make vehicles more survivable, methinks.

Not to hijack the thread, I just want to say that I hope they change things so that the glancing hits table is used for penetrating hits, and a glancing hit rolls on it with a negative modifier or something like that. Maybe 5th edition. =/

Posted By Orlanth on 08/09/2007 5:30 AM

Plasma guns should have a supplementary restriction of 1:250 pts of Guard, or a doctrine point. No restriction for Marines though.

And inversely, fluffwise they should be able to get missile launchers and autocannons for 10 points each, a one point reduction for the basic trooper, heavy stubber heavy and special weapon options, and more artillery than your opponent can field marines, but thats a completely different topic.

Posted By Orlanth on 08/09/2007 5:30 AM

Actually plasma is rarer than that.

No. It's not. It's rare because they can't give a plasma gun to everyone, only single ones to squads. And I'm not saying that. I believe it was Pete Haines (yes, I'm a hypocrite for quoting him, of all people...) who said that, or words to that effect.

BYE

Allowing 1 special OR heavy weapon for troop units below 10 would just create a whole bunch of 6 man las only squads. No thanks.

The codex allows for unit sizes of anywhere from 5 to 20. Much more variable than the new SM paradigm which allows 5 or 10 man squads period. (Or 5 man only termie squads, vs. 3-10 man for chaos.)

Chaos is only limited in squad sizes if you refuse to look at the codex with anything other than tunnel vision on creating the same sort of ultra-efficient troop squads each with a heavy weapon that were the name of the game in 3rd edition.

That way of playing is dead.  Thank god.  But have no fear. . .  having read through the new codex there are plenty of new things that can be min-maxed and exploited.

Posted By stonefox on 08/09/2007 5:38 AM

Despite what the local high school too-cool-for-school rebels think, real renegades love order and would do anything to uphold the law. They firmly believe in deeply-set codes of ethics and behavior too. Some of them even go so far as to don a secret identity and subdue criminals. They do these thankless deeds in a futile and romantic effort to support the regime that has abandoned them.

I think I'll stick with the union excuse.

BYE

Posted By Orlanth on 08/09/2007 5:30 AM
"Plasma Guns are considered rare in 40K, so much so that they can only afford to equip every Guard squad with one of them, rather than every man in a Guard Squad with one of them. That's rare in 40K - where you can't give them to everyone."

Actually plasma is rarer than that. Many Guard armies dont have them at all. However the codex doesnt back up the fluff by adding restrictions on how many you can take and which regiments can have them. So every regiment comes from the odd few planets that have them in reasonably plentiful supply.
Plasma guns should have a supplementary restriction of 1:250 pts of Guard, or a doctrine point. No restriction for Marines though.

For Marines it should be restricted to Veteran Squads.

The standard weapons for a Tactical Squad are the Missile Launcher and the Flamer according to the Codex. If this change is made to the Guard, it would only be logical that Marines need to spend a trait for access to special weapons other than the Flamer and a second to do the same for heavies.

Soulmage:

Why would you field a squad larger than 10? Saying that the ability to bulk a squad out to 20 CSMs is "variable" is like saying the current Necron 'dex offers a lot of variety because you could field an army made up mostly of Pariahs, Flayed Ones and Wraiths.

Plus, BA + DA != "the new SM paradigm".



You mean it is only limited if you intend to win?

Posted By tegeus-Cromis on 08/09/2007 8:26 AM
Soulmage:

The codex allows for unit sizes of anywhere from 5 to 20. Much more variable than the new SM paradigm which allows 5 or 10 man squads period.

Why would you field a squad larger than 10? Saying that the ability to bulk a squad out to 20 CSMs is "variable" is like saying the current Necron 'dex offers a lot of variety because you could field an army made up mostly of Pariahs, Flayed Ones and Wraiths.

Plus, BA + DA != "the new SM paradigm".

Chaos is only limited in squad sizes if you refuse to look at the codex with anything other than tunnel vision on creating the same sort of ultra-efficient troop squads each with a heavy weapon that were the name of the game in 3rd edition.

You mean it is only limited if you intend to win?

Yep. That's what he's saying.  Eldar players should rejoice. They will be the top army for a muber of coming years.

You mean it is only limited if you intend to win?

That's funny. . . I've never used a 6 man las/plas squad in the four years I've been playing this game. . . and yet I still manage to win 90% of the games I play - most of them at tournaments.

Posted By jfrazell on 08/08/2007 6:00 AM
Extreme Ditto.  All the variability is gone. Even with marks remaining and the Lash prince combo it feels "Chaos Lite"

Really, how much variability is lost?

It's not like the competitive Chaos lists were all that variable -- hell, I haven't put together a Chaos army list in 2 years, and I can still tell you off the top of my head that a 6 man las/plas MoCU squad is 115 points and an infiltrating 6 man plas/plas MoCU squad is 128 points because for power armor in troop squads, all of the options boil down to a small handful of truly useful choices.

The current/soon-to-be-old Chaos codex is replete with useless* choices.

In a competitive list, how often do you see:

The much vaunted Chaos armory ends up degenerating into "dial-a-lord" (see www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/view/topic/forumid/18/postid/77012/Default.aspx for a handy list of the best MEQ-slaying Lord at any point value you desire; the sheer number of options devolve into a fairly direct choice of how many points you want to spend giving you a fairly linearly amount of killing power); even still, most of the tactical options for Lords are retained (note most; Daemonic Speed is gone, but you can still choose flight and can take power armored, terminator armored, or statured lords -- the bulk of the rest of options are simply taking the base beast and making it choppier).

So what's the real loss in variability?  Daemons?  Even still it's rumored Chaos will be getting a daemon book next year.

If I may be allowed to ignore daemons based on said rumor, there's really not much of a change in variability of the codex (at least, for competitive lists) -- "dialing" individual models is gone, sure, but if anything there are more viable non-daemon unit configurations on the table.  The list is weaker overall, but that's to be expected since it's going in to the rewrite as the most powerful list on the table.

But maybe it's just me.  Sure when I first started Chaos the list seemed infinitely variable, but as I got better with it, it just boiled down to a small handful of viable choices (and "dialing", which to my mind isn't meaningful variability).

*shrug*

 

* Either useless or so stratified as to be pointless -- e.g., the Keeper of Secrets is not a bad unit in and of itself, it's just inferior to a Bloodthirster or a Lord of Change, and as such is rarely seen.

Soulmage: Sure you win, but that doesn't mean you built your army list to maximise your chances of doing so. You said yourself that the 6-man las/plas is "ultra-efficient" in a way that, say, 17-man melta/HB is not. The fact that you can handicap yourself and still compete proves nothing.

Lowinor: I think the problem is really that competitive variability has not increased, while fluffbunny variability has decreased greatly. The changes benefit no one--not power Chaos players, not fluffy Chaos players, and not any other army that isn't mech or 'zilla.

Posted By tegeus-Cromis on 08/09/2007 9:16 AM
Lowinor: I think the problem is really that competitive variability has not increased, while fluffbunny variability has decreased greatly. The changes benefit no one--not power Chaos players, not fluffy Chaos players, and not any other army that isn't mech or 'zilla.

Well, I'm a competitive player, so I'm not really looking at it from the fluffbunny perspective.  It may suck for them, I really don't care -- I'm not trying to be flippant, it's just simply not the perspective I play from.

The change to power Chaos players, though, isn't one of variability, it's power level.  And that's to be expected -- Chaos is the strongest list now.  Anyone expecting it to not get toned down hasn't been paying attention.

I'm certainly not trying to claim the change is "good", just that I don't think loss of variability in competitive lists is really a valid complaint, as there really wasn't much there to start with, and with the daemon codex it's entirely possible competitive Chaos lists will be even more varied.  Doesn't make Chaos less nerfed, doesn't make the new codex "good" or "bad", just that the changes to variability of competitive lists isn't a big deal -- in my opinion.

Okay, I agree with you as far as that goes. Perhaps people are conflating the power nerf with the reduction in fluffy options--after all, a lot of people do have fluffy lists in addition to the power lists they roll out for tourneys, and I imagine this hit must suck doubly for them.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/09/2007 12:28 AM

Posted By onlainari on 08/08/2007 9:40 PM
The fact is, heavy weapons are in short supply.

No they're not. They're as common as dirt.

Plasma Guns are considered rare in 40K, so much so that they can only afford to equip every Guard squad with one of them, rather than every man in a Guard Squad with one of them. That's rare in 40K - where you can't give them to everyone.

And your argument makes no sense. Why does the Chaos Lord have to have 10 guys before he'll give 'em a gun. Is it some sort of union restriction? Why would he not make up some small units with Lascannons, and gather the majority of his men together into a forward assault led by the Lord himself.

BYE

It's a result of Alpharius turning to Chaos and wanting the hardest battle they can get, so they give themselves a handicap

Just had a quick peak at the codex... did I read it right? Chosen squads can have 1 heavy and 4 special or 5 special weapons?

Competive variability has decreased alot actually.

Old HQs: Khorne glaive prince, infiltrating speed lord w/ various weapon options, bloodthrister, cheap ccw prince, cheap lt (lotsa possibilites), manreaper lord/prince, siren prince. Vet skill options for all but the BT. More robust weapon options.

New HQs: Slaanesh Fzorgle Prince. Fzorgle sorcerer. combo 2 princes and GD. No skill options and no daemon weapons worth taking (ie Lord is pointless)

Old Elites: Oblits (not competeing with heavy slots), rubric terminators (arguable), slaanesh havocs (BL)

New elites: Terminators. Chosen (arguable)

Old Troops: 6 man las/plas, 6-8 man speical weapon in rhino to deliver daemons, 6 man noise marines (pure shooty or w/ pimp AC), daemonettes, bloodletters. Non-daemons all had varaitions of vet skills and some awesome legion options (1 pt infiltration, stealth adept).

New Troops: Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Rubrics

Old FA: Slaanesh or Khorne bikers, mounted daemonettes, furies, raptors (infiltraing in AL builds or multiple in NL)

New FA: Raptors (arguable). Nurgle/tzeetch bikes (arguable without daemones to deliver)

Old Heavy: Pred w/ mutatted hull, defiler w/ mutated hull, defiler w/ indirect, AC/ML havocs with tank hunter, HB havocs w/ infiltration, Infiltrating havocs w/ 4 special weapons, iron warrior bassie

New Heavy: Umpteen Oblits, cheap ac/hb preds, ML havocs, 4 special weapon havocs in rhino (arguable), vindicator w/ possesion (arguable)

Also, the old list had some notabel varaition with the legion rules. New list is just skittles. I know not everyone will agree with the above but IMHO there's a ton of variant competative lists in the old rules. Not so much in the new one.

Those look like the winning combos to me to Winterman. Variablitly did not decrease, it laughed at the new Codex and ran away.

Mat :S

Posted By ubermosher on 08/09/2007 11:08 AM
Just had a quick peak at the codex... did I read it right? Chosen squads can have 1 heavy and 4 special or 5 special weapons?

Yes... yes you did.

hrm... less than 230 points for a min squad with 5 plasma guns... good for a one-hit wonder... but I'm sure they'd get slapped around pretty fast... need some ablative wounds... I'm a fan of the close range firefight, though, so it ~might~ be worth considering. comparing full rhinos, the Tzeentch are more expensive by 22 points (assuming doombolt)...

Assume: Tzeentch 18 bolter shots, 3 Doombolt shots vs. MEQ w/ toughness 4 = 7 casualties
Assume: Chosen= 10 Plasma shots, 10 bolter shots vs. MEQ w/toughness 4 = 6 casualties (I rounded 10 shots down to 9)
Half Strength Chosen= 10 plasma shots vs. MEQ w/toughness 4 = 5 casualties

Average cost (in points) per casualty:
Tzeentch: 44.5
Chosen: 48.3
Half Strength Chosen: 40

If you can keep the chosen squad's rhino safe, you're in good shape with a min/maxed squad... I admit I'm not a tournament player and since somehow at tournaments your enemy general knows the contents of every transport, it becomes much worse of a gamble. They must put up giant banners or something

A scary prospect, but it seems too expensive for a "one-hit wonder", Geddonight. Guard could do three suicide plas squads for the cost!

I thought about a Rhino rush of 5 plasma Chosen... then remembered they have Infiltrate. They might be worth it just to disrupt your opponent and put him on the defensive.

Chaos version of IG plasma/meltagun drop squad.

Do two of the min maxed Chosen, two PrinceWhips and never move the Chosen. Bring the enemy to you.

What kills me about the PrinceWhips is that at the end of it all it forces a pinning test... Move uber expensive enemy unit into open with no cover within rapid fire range and watch them become pinned and stuck there.... in the open... rinse and repeat.

Yes, because pinning is so reliable.