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Longshot wrote:The lack of two special weapons will mean me never playing 40k again.

The loss of that second plasma hurts that much? Though it wouldn't be out of hand for it to work like CSM squads, take 10 dudes get access to plasma #2. But ... would it be Codex???

- Salvage

Techboss wrote:
5th edition appears to be squarely putting CSM below SM in the power balance. IF the Deamon Codex were able to be allies to CSM, I might see it the other way. I think it's no exactly true to paint he picture that CSM has dominated SM for the past 2 editions. I'd say they were on about equal ground till 5th.

Absolultely impossible to say with any certainty without seeing the 'dex, though I agree with the rest of your post.

Longshot wrote:
The lack of two special weapons will mean me never playing 40k again. That makes 50% of the armies I've owned totally poop-chuted by a new codex (Ravenwing, drop pods, nids and tau).

Thats slowed. Dont get me wrong I understand your frustration but not playing because you dont like a little bit of a rumoured army list?? BYE!!!

sebster wrote:

And yeah, I’ve been around long enough to remember the number of times the internet got things horribly, ridiculously wrong. It’s funny that people keep complaining about GW’s overreactions in, well, threads like this.

you've hit it square on the head - brilliant. The forum knee jerk-o-meter is off the scale due to people moaning about GWs knee jerk reactions! lol

Plastic Parody:

Thats slowed. Dont get me wrong I understand your frustration but not playing because you dont like a little bit of a rumoured army list?? BYE!!!

I'm guessing he's talking about what he'll do if the rumour turns out to be true. Obviously he isn't going to quit just because the rumour exists.

As for quitting the hobby over a single change, there's a point where you figure enough's enough. I'm not anywhere near that point (fate has been kind to my chosen army), but maybe Longshot is.

Plastic Parody wrote:Thats slowed. Dont get me wrong I understand your frustration but not playing because you dont like a little bit of a rumoured army list?? BYE!!!

As mentioned above, there comes a point in which the player must decide if they want to continue to flow with the game or give GW the figurative finger. I think a lot of people grow tired of constantly having to modify models to make them legal with each edition change. IMO, part of the reason CSM recieved bolter, bolt pistol and CCW is because GW knew they would alienate just about every CSM player on the planet by going only bolter or only bolt pistol and CCW for the CSM player. I must admit that if 1/2 my army was put in the remodel pile, I'd probably straight up quit at this point.

If one decides that they are no longer going to change models, then they either quit or move to the hobbiest side, where painting and a cool looking army is the most important aspect. Based on the 5th edition rumors, I may be moving to this boat as I am tired of changing my army and don't like many of the 5th edition rules.

Techboss wrote:I think a lot of people grow tired of constantly having to modify models to make them legal with each edition change. IMO, part of the reason CSM recieved bolter, bolt pistol and CCW is because GW knew they would alienate just about every CSM player on the planet by going only bolter or only bolt pistol and CCW for the CSM player. I must admit that if 1/2 my army was put in the remodel pile, I'd probably straight up quit at this point.

What is funny is that I'm planning to strip and redo my Marine armies so that each is built to specific modeling standards. It's pretty much the only way I can get to having an all-Beakie army and an all-Templar army.

Techboss wrote:
As mentioned above, there comes a point in which the player must decide if they want to continue to flow with the game or give GW the figurative finger. I think a lot of people grow tired of constantly having to modify models to make them legal with each edition change. IMO, part of the reason CSM recieved bolter, bolt pistol and CCW is because GW knew they would alienate just about every CSM player on the planet by going only bolter or only bolt pistol and CCW for the CSM player. I must admit that if 1/2 my army was put in the remodel pile, I'd probably straight up quit at this point.

I don't understand. Why would the choice between bolter and bolt pistol alienate CSM players of the 3.5 codex?

Maybe I'll dust off my Space Sharks, if the balance of these rumors are true.

You should. Space Sharks never go out of style!

Techboss wrote:

Plastic Parody wrote:Thats slowed. Dont get me wrong I understand your frustration but not playing because you dont like a little bit of a rumoured army list?? BYE!!!

As mentioned above, there comes a point in which the player must decide if they want to continue to flow with the game or give GW the figurative finger. I think a lot of people grow tired of constantly having to modify models to make them legal with each edition change. IMO, part of the reason CSM recieved bolter, bolt pistol and CCW is because GW knew they would alienate just about every CSM player on the planet by going only bolter or only bolt pistol and CCW for the CSM player. I must admit that if 1/2 my army was put in the remodel pile, I'd probably straight up quit at this point.

If one decides that they are no longer going to change models, then they either quit or move to the hobbiest side, where painting and a cool looking army is the most important aspect. Based on the 5th edition rumors, I may be moving to this boat as I am tired of changing my army and don't like many of the 5th edition rules.

I still dont get why that would make a person stop playing the game. If the specific army changes annoyed me I would change army, not drop the game. Now, if he said he was dropping the game due to poor 5th ed rules AND that the Marine 'dex was the final nail in the coffin fair enough but that wasnt said.

Also am completely and utterly confused at how the bolt pisotl would alienate CSM players????

Just my 2 cents.

You know that cliche, "This is the last straw"? Well, from what I gather, Longshot's been burned before by similar changes, and this, if it comes to pass, will be that proverbial last straw.

If CSMs were BP + CCW only, every player with bolter CSMs would have a lot of useless models that would need converting to be WYSIWYG. That's what Techboss meant.

Plastic Parody wrote:Also am completely and utterly confused at how the bolt pisotl would alienate CSM players????

I think what they're saying is the lack of options and the reduction of the Codex would alienate some, if not many, CSM players.

Look at it this way. Player A has a big Khorne army under the old Codex, with lots CSM with Chainswords and Bolt Pistols. Player B has a big Iron Warriors army under the old Codex, with lots of CSM with Bolters.

GW releases a new Codex. It states either:

a - all CSM must be armed with a Bolt Pistol and CCW (which will frustrate Player B, who's already annoyed that his Basilisk is now useless and his entire army's taken a nerf beating); or
b - all CSM must be armed with a Bolter (which will frustrate Player A, who's already annoyed that his Khorne list has lost its Bloodthirsters but gained boring mundane Daemons instead); or
c - all CSM are armed with a Bolt Pistol and CCW (which will placate both A and B, freeing them to concentrate their - justified - bitching on the Codex's other faults).

Of course, another option that would cause less fuss, keep points costs more balanced, and give players more options would be:

d - CSM are armed with a Bolter but may swap this out for a Bolt Pistol and CCW.

But GW don't like options anymore.

EDIT: No, that's not fair. It's not that they don't like options, it's that they don't like individuality. I just realised that. Think about it. Jervis is now telling us how to play the game after years of saying everyone plays it differently. Traits/Craftworlds etc. have gone from Codexes, so armies are more similar. Their argument is that you can make changes by taking Special Characters - but again, that just reinforces the sameness of those armies. Every Raven Guard army has Shrike in it, for example. It's taking away the uniqueness of certain armies.

And it's not just gaming they're doing this to. Some gamers have been pissed off with GW for a long while for their shoddy rules-writing. Now GW are trying to piss off the 'hobbyist' too. With the removal of Bitz, conversions (and thus unique armies) have become much more difficult (almost impossible if it wasn't for eBay, the Warstore, etc.). Armies therefore will become much more 'straight-out-of-the-packet' with little or no variation between two of the same type.

Sigh. Sad, really.

Plastic Parody wrote:I still dont get why that would make a person stop playing the game. If the specific army changes annoyed me I would change army, not drop the game.

Everyone forgot to mention that constantly changing armies or re-modelling options takes time and money. You also can't discount the work and effort that went into a fully painted army, only to have to be "stripped" or remodelled again. For some people, that's extremely frustrating.

Plastic Parody wrote:
If the specific army changes annoyed me I would change army, not drop the game.

Spoken like a true comsumer. Congrats... You have just towed the GW line.

But on to the subject.... The rumors sound pretty cool. I think I may need some dreads! I hope there will be some fun trait-like abilities conferred by the chapter masters. How much do you want to bet all the chapter masters will have $20 models?

ender502

Yes, lose an army or two and you "had it up to here" level is pretty full. It doesn't take much after that.

If the release date is supposed to be October, then why are people claiming to have seen the final print now?

That sounds fishy to me.

Because when you don't play-test something, it gets done a lot quicker.

BYE

Doctor Thunder wrote:If the release date is supposed to be October, then why are people claiming to have seen the final print now?

That sounds fishy to me.

6 Months lead time from completed product development to worldwide release for something along the lines of a Codex sounds about right.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

Doctor Thunder wrote:If the release date is supposed to be October, then why are people claiming to have seen the final print now?

That sounds fishy to me.

6 Months lead time from completed product development to worldwide release for something along the lines of a Codex sounds about right.

Just like every other leaked codex.

Does anyone have any rumors about the HQ section?

Especially on how Librarians and Psychics are going to be handled?

(YES, some things needed to be adjusted, but overall I was very happy with SM psykers.)

Seeing as Jervis is at the helm, and 5th is the new 3rd, I expect a very lame Psychic Phase this time around, but I am hoping to be pleasantly surprised and/or happy...

You can always play BT if you don't like the new rules.

G

What about space wolves, what are they supposed to do, make an army up?

Green Blow Fly wrote:You can always play BT if you don't like the new rules.

G

Please dear Emperor, no! I don't want any power gaming whiners to come over to the black and white panoply of Sigismund's crusaders. I already had to survive through all of the jackapes playing my beloved Templars under Armegeddon.

Alpharius wrote:Does anyone have any rumors about the HQ section?

Especially on how Librarians and Psychics are going to be handled?

Go and read the Dark Angel Codex.

Copy paste options (or lackthereof).

Change the psychic powers.

Done.

BYE

Ugh.

That's exactly what I was afraid of...

Oh well!

Can't wait for 6th then!

Look, the eternal optimist in me wishes it would be better. Wishes that Vanilla Marine Librarians would have access to Iron Halos like commanders... but they won't.

Really, just take all the non-Chapter specific stuff from the DA and BA 'Dexes, throw Scouts into Troops, make 'em WS3 and BS3, add a new Land Raider, maybe a new Speeder, and bingo - new Marine Codex.

BYE

Funny how the whole "Man's Emergence as a Psychic Race" thing gets thrown out with the bath water...

Again...

And really, NO invulnerable save option for Librarian HQ's?

Awesome.

They have to do something to make loyalists worse than CSM again... So this might be the first baby-step down that path.

Nah, they'll still be better. Maybe Loyalists will get men who are possessed by... the power of the Space Emperor! And they'll have (non-random) abilities that they can buy. They'll be awesome.

BYE

ender502 wrote:

Plastic Parody wrote:
If the specific army changes annoyed me I would change army, not drop the game.

Spoken like a true comsumer. Congrats... You have just towed the GW line.

ender502

thank you kind sir ;-p

I like giving GW my money for shiny new things.

If you want the invulnerable save for your librarians, you'll have to put them in terminator armor.

Capt K