Codex: Space Marines -- From B&C

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**Kallbrand**

Sounds like what you can expekt from JJ, nice for everyone cheering for him in the other threads.

What have he ever made thats been good, reasonable and balanced?

**Frazzled**

EPIC

**Ozymandias**

Blood Bowl

Ozymandias, King of Kings

**CaptKaruthors**

Awww....cannot get your ship out...

Capt K

skullspliter888 wrote:What SM gets a AV13 Dread and they take my mutted hull away

**JohnHwangDD**

BFG

**CaptKaruthors**

i disagree that it isn't powerful at all and is somewhat needed to preserve the squads. 5th edition assaults usually end after the first round of a combat, even then the combat resolution piles more wounds on you. Having marines withdraw to save their numbers makes sense. This rule seems to be put into place to allow small elite armies to survive the inevitable use of horde armies. Play some games using 5th edition rules and you'll quickly see what I mean.

Capt K

keezus wrote:Is it just me, or does voluntary fallback seem absolutely overpowered to me...

You move up, rapidfire that 30 man boyz squad (and/maybe) flamer template... get charged, voluntary fallback with your 1 or 2 remnants... as long as your flamer dude didn't die (i.e. put him WAY in the back) you can kill a WHOLE PILE of enemy dudes that are all bunched up.

Ugh.

Space Marines - universal rules and options that break the standard ruleset:

Ignores under 50% regroup rules: Check
Immune to being locked in assault: Check
Ignores standard regroup tests: Check
Basic troop can be made to two autonomous scoring units without giving up proportionate victory points for taking damage: Check
Transport capacity overages can be ignored when purchased for basic troops (see above): Check
May deepstrike regardless of mission: If desired
May assault after deepstrike: If desired

Luckily, the rumours seem to suggest that the following options from the V4 codex are gone (traits nonwithstanding)

Auto-Ld10 for everyone - since this would make the voluntary fallback pretty much automatically succeed.
Unlimited use 50% auto-negate psychic powers with psychic hood
Unlimited range no-LOS needing autosmite psychic power

Granted, this is outside the framework of playing games with the new dex in 5th edition... but it is interesting that Marines seem to be the ones getting lots of rules exceptions, where as traditional rule breaking armies like Eldar get saddled mostly with USRs.

**winterman**

You move up, rapidfire that 30 man boyz squad (and/maybe) flamer template... get charged, voluntary fallback with your 1 or 2 remnants... as long as your flamer dude didn't die (i.e. put him WAY in the back) you can kill a WHOLE PILE of enemy dudes that are all bunched up.

Based on rumors:
-Still appears you'd have to escape via the I roll first (granted not hard against orks).
-Then you have to beat orks 1d6 consolidate with the 2d6 fallback (again not hard but still not automatic).
-Orks would not be bunched up, they still consolidate 1D6.
-You have to fall back toward board edge. Removes alot of the freedom of hit-n-run. Also not something you'd want to do close to the board edge.
-Good chance the marines would have fallen back anyway in the scenario you've posed (probably lose by 3-4 models against the orks, giving them a good chance to break).

Still, this rule does give the marines an edge when they get lucky against the swarm of orks and also against other enemies. Like say spinegaunts, conscripts or swarms in which the marines could win a combat and get stuck for the duration. I'll be reserving judgement though till 5ed and we get the codex in hand.

**skyth**

I thought consolidate moves have been removed. (And in 4th, it's only 3" if they don't get a massacre result)

**Pariah Press**

Boss_Salvage wrote:New Sicarus now has hair and a beard! *shrugs* go figure!

There has got to be an Al Gore joke in there somewhere.

dietrich wrote:But, it typical GW mode, they screwed up the drop pod. Sure, now there's a kit. But, it's more points. And you can't get two special weapons in a tac squad. So, now that they finally have a model, it'll see a lot less play (assuming the rules are the same).

Well, due to the rumored changes to the power fist rules, combi-weapons on sergeants become viable (assuming they'll be legal), so it's not TOO bad.

Overall, it looks like we traded traits for a LOT of new unit and toys. Considering I never used traits anyway, I'm not fussed about it. My buddy's army (apothecaries and plasma guns in his tac squads) is going to be pretty messed-up, but he'd an avid converter, and has a lot of spare heavy weapons, so I doubt he'll cry too much.

**H.B.M.C.**

Boss_Salvage wrote:Commander in terminator armour on a bike or has a jump pack has no bearing on army selection. However special characters do.

*cries*

This is... uhh! Why must special characters be a core part of the list. They're supposed to be for flavour, fun and fluff, not because I want to field a different army organisation.

BYE

**Rbb**

While I was reading the rumors my wife asked me "Are you ok? Your face is red."
They

chaos and they were supposed to bring marines in line with everybody else. Instead, they get lots of new toys, while we lost our toys. Bastards.

**Pariah Press**

Rbb wrote:While I was reading the rumors my wife asked me "Are you ok? Your face is red."
They chaos and they were supposed to bring marines in line with everybody else. Instead, they get lots of new toys, while we lost our toys. Bastards.

Wait, you're mad because they took the complaints about DA and Chaos seriously, and tried to avoid making the same mistakes?

**Ozymandias**

He's mad cause his spiky marines aren't as good as non-spikey marines.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

**Rbb**

Basically. Fielding a Legion specific special character, like say Kharn, doesn't give you any special Legion rules. I was expecting it to be like DA and BA because JJ wrote them, too. If I played either one of them I would be super pissed. But not really mad. I didn't kick the cat or anything. Just thought it was funny she said that.

And they took away my daemons. Bastards.

**Black Blow Fly**

Voluntary fallback is broken unless the unit has to fallback more than 6" from any enemy unit to regroup.

G

**Waaagh_Gonads**

Good to see they put scouts back in troops so as not to overload the elites section which would see them never taken.

7 heavy choices.
6 maybe 7 elites choices.
5 fast attack choices.

That is some non troop lovin' the SMs got.

Also why a slot for MOTF? Is he the leader of the techmarines or one of the chapter captains?

**malfred**

The only thing I can tell you Rbb is that maybe if lots of
people buy special characters they'll do something similar
for Chaos Legions.

Maybe.

**Le Grognard**

I feel a WD article to supplement CSM coming up before the end of the year.

Possibly

**winterman**

I thought consolidate moves have been removed. (And in 4th, it's only 3" if they don't get a massacre result)

Actually the whole massacre result move was removed in the leaked pdf, not consolidation. Now there is just consolidation, which is always a D6" move. I have not heard any reliable rumor that the consolidate move has been removed from the final rules. So my points above were based on the pdf.

Now what has been mentioned by several people that have seen the new rules is that units cannot consolidate into a new unit, period. The leaked pdf says you can't consolidate into an existing combat.

If the any unit thing is true, then that may also apply towards consolidating into a unit which has just fallen back from you. Hard to say at this point.

**sebster**

I don’t think we need to panic about the veteran assault troops just yet. Marine assault units have a long history of being underperformed and overpriced, with only a few exceptions. In the current codex you’ve got Shrike and his retinue, and their summary in a rumours post would make them look absurdly good. Once people actually read the rules and saw the points values (and, heaven forbid, played with them in a game) he suddenly became a very pricey unit built around gambling on getting the first turn. It’s highly likely the veteran assault marines will carry a similar gamble, and will probably cost too many points to justify the chance.

Then again, possibly not, they could be ridiculously underpriced and have full access to the marine armoury. We ultimately can’t make any meaningful predictions because we don’t have any detail on the special rules, let alone points costs, let alone any actual experience in play. We’re left with guesses based on personal bias (GW love marines! GW can’t balance! Jervis sucks!) and that just makes us look silly.

There’s plenty of information in there on codex design and a lot worth discussing; traits being effectively replaced by variant lists built around special characters, expansion of the elites section, combat squads were kept, reduction of scout stats possibly altering their role considerably. But discussion about balance, at this point, is devoid of content.

**Alpharius**

Pariah Press wrote:
Well, due to the rumored changes to the power fist rules, combi-weapons on sergeants become viable (assuming they'll be legal), so it's not TOO bad.

Yeah, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that "option" will be removed...

**skkipper**

more dreadnaughts, flame tanks scout bikers. i'm in

Um sure chaos isn't the cornicopia of cheddar it once was, but the book has some really solid builds.
lash and berzerkers what a lovely combo.

**H.B.M.C.**

Yeah, probably Bolter, Storm Bolter (for 10 - LOL!) or Plasma Pistol (for 15-over-priced-points). I also look forward to seeing Power Fists (now with less attacks) going up in price to 25.

One thing you can also count on when GW writes rules is them overbalancing things.

GW Dev 1: Power Fists are too powerful? What should we do?
Jervis: Remove the option completely, but draw a nice picture of it somewhere?
GW Dev 1: No, something better than that.
GW Dev 2: How about we don't allow them +1 for having a pistol!
GW Dev 3: How about we jack up the price!
GW Dev 1: Those are great ideas, and either one will balance the power fist nicley against other close combat options! So which one should we go for?
GW Dev 4: How 'bout we do both!
GW Dev Team: YEAH! GREAT IDEA! 3 HOUR LUNCH! WOOO!

BYE

**skullspliter888**

Lmao H.B.M.C. its not WOOOO its HURRRR for lunch

**tomguycot**

Maybe I can just run my chaos marines using loyalist rules as a 'counts as' army. The WS/BS 3 scouts might make some pretty cool cultists or mutants. Then I guess you could say that GW would have succeeded in getting people to play "renegade" chapters.

On one hand I am very glad that the army books are improving. I liked the Ork book a lot, I think the Daemon list is cool (even if it isn't the strongest list ever due to the inherent randomness it is pretty unique and cool), and the new Marine book looks solid too. On the other hand why couldn't my poor chaos marines have gotten an interesting book too? Why did they have to go from the most unique and diverse army list in the game to "that book with the broken psychic power"?

**Tiderian**

Regarding stormbolters for veteran sergeants, please note that neither BA nor DA vets have stormbolters as an option (which hurts, because everybody who once could have a stormbolter in my BA force does).

I suspect that stormbolters (and combis of any sort) will not be an option for tactical squad veteran sergeants.

**H.B.M.C.**

Tiderian wrote:Regarding stormbolters for veteran sergeants, please note that neither BA nor DA vets have stormbolters as an option (which hurts, because everybody who once could have a stormbolter in my BA force does).

Oh they don't do they? Ok then:

Plasma Pistols ahoy!

40K 5th - A Different Kind of Choice.

BYE

**deitpike**

tkdarktrooper wrote:Ok, I am solely taking all sniper scouts. Sniper scouts don't care about BS3. Assualt Vets = time to take names! The one problem I have is this: does this codex "nerf" the unique named Marine codices?

Sniper scouts will care about their BS3, as snipers will roll to hit with their BS in 5th edition

**DeathGod**

Alpharius wrote:
DeathGod wrote:
Jayden63 wrote:Looks stupidly unbalanced and under playtested. But Marines are GWs glory boys. So what else is new.

Ah, the height of mouthbreathing. How on Earth can you possibly make anything close to an educated statement on balance in a book you have never seen and have only typo-ridden rumor posts to base opinions on?

While I agree with the overall point you're trying to make (DON'T PANIC! ` at least, not yet!), the whole "mouthbreating" thing stopped being clever and/or funny after the first post you used it in...

Unless it is your Trademark Item?

Guilty as charged. Honestly, it's a term my local gaming group uses, so it's just part of my gaming vernacular.

**Jayden63**

Anyone else as afraid of the flamer Landraider as I am. Its the ultimate lawnmower. Since there are going to be cover saves a plenty in 5th ed. It only makes sense that the SM have a weapon that ignores them, ignores the armor save, and for giggles wounds every form of infantry on a 2+. Ohh, yeah, since the flamer is a template of sorts, under the new rules it probably doesn't miss either, it just scatters a little. But with a 4" roll back. I pray you can't lob that thing like the hellhounds can.

Then we have the lovely voluntary fallback rule. Nothing wrong with disengaging from a fight you may or may not have started, pull out, shoot with your bolt pistols and charge back in using BP/CCW combo (because now all SM have BP/CCW/Bolters... Thats right, 3 freekin attacks on the charge back in). Yeah... thats fair.

Some say I'm jumping the gun, I say you haven't been around for as long as I have. This codex is buisness as usual as far as SM are concerned.