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Chaplain Pallantide wrote:Isn't Kronos = Iron Hands? I am most likely wrong, but that's my guess...

Wasn't Kronos mentioned as a clan/company master in the iron hands that is venerable dreadnought? I maybe mistaken, otherwise if he's iron hand, he's a special master of the forge.

I'm curious about the scout special character... maybe he will allow veteran scouts, i.e. scouts with normal marine stats, since they got hit with the nerfing stick.

What SM gets a AV13 Dread and they take my mutted hull away

Gawd. Time to take out the Emperor's Finest and see what we have left after this 'dex is released.

I think the quote for this situation is: "Wow, not as bad as I expected!"

Voodoo Boyz wrote:I think the quote for this situation is: "Wow, not as bad as I expected!"

Indeed! Sounds awesome though I do wonder and where all this leaves the DA and BA - poor chumps.

I have to say that some of this sounds absolutely far-fetched.

You're telling me that Loyalist SM's are going to get Veteran Assault Marines that can deepstrike and charge the same turn?

That's slowed.

Sounds awesome? Sounds awesome against what? Current 4th edition lists and rules? In most cases a new codex brings the house down and it turns out it's not hat bad. In this case the new codex is bringing out cheers, yet I'm not quite so sure.

I can't see rending snipers and assault squads jumping in after deep strike as viable in 5th. Anything worth rending will be behind a 4+ cover shield. What can assault marines do against 30 boyz? Kill a bunch of 6pt models and then get swamped? On top of that don't be so sure the price of said assault marines won't be pretty high. How close do you deep strike them and not be worried about poofing the whole unit to scatter?

The biggest thing I see is a reduction of heavy weapons (duh) while at the same time an increase in the viability of horde lists. Remember folks the basic marine is becoming as useful as a DA marine. A DA marine. That includes all it's ability to shoot at the enemy. I don't see a lot of small elite units in the future of 40K so any marine tactic to take those out loses a lot of it's luster.

Attack Bikes seem to be the biggest threat a marine army will have. The ability to put out 3 very mobile heavy bolters/Multi-meltas will be like no other unit in 5th edition.

I'm not saying the new marine dex sounds like the end of marines, I'm just not as rosie eyed as what I'm reading here. Not to excited and not to down on any of the new dexes until I see tham played.

Looks stupidly unbalanced and under playtested. But Marines are GWs glory boys. So what else is new.

dienekes96 wrote:
Written by Jervis + Matt

Master of the forge, has a conversion beamer.
new land raider variant, called the Redeemer with Str 6 AP3 flamer sponsons and twin linked assault cannon. Sallies like this and the colour section has one in sallies colours.
3 Dread variants. Again sallies seem to favour the new Ironclad Dread which is like a heavy assault/breaching dread. (AV13)
New Veteran rules - Tactical Vets (special ammo like death watch.), and Assault vets (can have jump packs and an assaulted array of nasty CC weapons) can deep strike and assault in the same turn.

Special Characters
11 specials which add chapter traits

Retooled Plastic Land speeder + another new varient which works with scout squads call land speeder storm.
Scouts have helfire heavy bolter rouns but are WS and BS 3 and are still troops

Razor back has may weapon option, twin heavy bolter, Heavy Flamers, Assault Cannons, Multimelta, Lascannon, and Lascon and twin plasma guns.

Of course, this is a Jervis book. Who is "Matt" - some sock puppet?

ATSKNF *and* Volutary Fallback? Wow, GW wants to make sure SM never lose.

New Land Raider? Totally unneeded, but hey, whatever.

Furioso and Siege Dreads for everyone? OK.

Uber Veterans and Assault Veterans? Cool. Tho this pinches the BA a bit.

Hands up, who's surprised that you need a Special Character to change the army list...

Nice to see that GW will make the Land Speeder buildable. But really, the Scouts don't need a Land Speeder.

Nice to see Scouts going back down to WS3 BS3 to stay Troops. Hopefully, they also go back to T3 Ld7 and lose ATSKNF to drive the point home.

Nice to see that we'll get twin-AssCan Razorbacks. I want!

Wehrkind wrote:I think if scouts go to say 8-9 points,

With their good USRs, reduced cost and availability as cut-price SM Troops, Scouts will be worth at least 12 points/model.

gorgon wrote:Conversion beamer FTW!

Can we officially cross Jervis's name off the list of "designers I don't want writing my codex"?

Yeah, I'm also super-geeked for the Conversion Beamer.

And FWIW, I'll take a Jervis-dex over a Gav-dex any day of the week.

victorpofa wrote:Loss of marine traits practically guarantees loss of doctrines for IG.

As if wasn't guaranteed when Eldar lost Craftworlds and Chaos lost Legions?

dietrich wrote:Shrike might let you take Assault Squads as Troops.

Possible, but unlikely, given that SM now have Assault Veterans. If you want Assault Squads as Troops, I still think you'll have to play BA.

Well, instead of all of us speculating [and I am guilty of it as well], why don't we just stop talking about this thread and wait until the codex come out. I think that is the best thing to do at this moment, wait...that makes too much sense. Silly me for looking through rose-colored glasses.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:I have to say that some of this sounds absolutely far-fetched.

You're telling me that Loyalist SM's are going to get Veteran Assault Marines that can deepstrike and charge the same turn?

That's slowed.

Well, if you look at it on face value it looks pretty strong. On the other hand consider this;

33% chance of landing where you want to
6 inch assault
In 5th you place the first guy, make a circle around him as you deploy
You cannot deploy within an inch of the enemy, if you do...you roll the mishap table.

So, if you do place your unit to ensure you will be within assault range (6 inches)..and scatter towards them...

6,7,8 most common number on 2d6 (Plus 1 inch you must be placed away from enemy unit)
So any of those numbers with a scatter towards = you on their unit = roll the mishap table
Mishap table: 1-2 Put back in reserve, 3-4 Unit is dead, 5-6 Opponent can place the unit anywhere they want (Basically dead)

If you scatter away from their unit, well assaulting is a moot point.


Then, add in the counter-attack USR, no kill zone removal, no consolidation into a fresh enemy, etc...and elite HTH units suddenly don't look so great. I doubt I would even DS my Veteran Assault Squad at this point (Unless they make the mishap table less harsh or scatter less random). Don't Orks currently have a unit that can DS with an 85 point upgrade (Special Char)?

As a Salamander player I don't know whether jump for joy or cry in despair.

I guess I'll just have to be happy with flamery land raiders, AV13 burninator dreads, razorbacks with multimeltas or assault cannons and the best SM character in the book...

wait wth are peopel so happy with this. fine marines are geting some interesting new models, i liek that.

But i do not think this idea with the special characters is such a good idea, wth do us players who don't play one of these chapters do? i don't get the idea of making spcial characters like this. are they just going to say if your chapter is similar just take that special character.... whats with this BS? its just another way of making your army less personlised like a twist on the new chaos marine codex (before anyone says they are very different, i agree but they are both de personising the armies)

are they just going to say if your chapter is similar just take that special character.... whats with this BS?

Sounds reasonable to me, actually.
I'm not a fan of excessive simplification by any means. I hate the loss of LatD and of marked daemons from the CSM dex. Some things, however, are acceptable losses, and to me, at least, having to use a special character to unlock certain options is one of them. People are used to 'counts-as" by now, in large part thanks to Eldrad.

As for the Chaos dex, while it angered lots of long-time players, it's clearly not as bad as all that where most players are concerned. Just look at the profusion of Chaos lists on the Army Lists forum.

Jayden63 wrote:Looks stupidly unbalanced and under playtested. But Marines are GWs glory boys. So what else is new.

Ah, the height of mouthbreathing. How on Earth can you possibly make anything close to an educated statement on balance in a book you have never seen and have only typo-ridden rumor posts to base opinions on?

Sgt.Roadkill wrote:wait wth are peopel so happy with this. fine marines are geting some interesting new models, i liek that.

But i do not think this idea with the special characters is such a good idea, wth do us players who don't play one of these chapters do? i don't get the idea of making spcial characters like this. are they just going to say if your chapter is similar just take that special character.... whats with this BS? its just another way of making your army less personlised like a twist on the new chaos marine codex (before anyone says they are very different, i agree but they are both de personising the armies)

Theres a beautiful little style called "Counts As"

I think most of the stuff done to the marines in this codex makes sense; it might not be directly fluffish for new technology to come out of no where but the nature of how it fits into the marine army does. A scout speeder makes sense, how else would marine scouts get to an area to direct a marine drop pod landing; moving on foot they wouldn't always be able to catch up to a mechanized force so I like it.

From this unit list I think this codex will succeed at allowing us to create armies with alot of character without being dependent on the trait system that many saw as broken or in the very least abused. With the exception of the non-codex marine chapters I see this codex allowing people wide berth to mix and match units according to how they envision their chapter. The way special characters are used to further drive an army type with a special rule is a good way of still allowing those other distinctive armies; I think its a little unfortunate they're special characters but at DeathGod points as "Counts As" is a good alternative. I think this will be a good codex.

Wow, they made marines better than everything! Why would they do such a thing? that never, ever happens!

Time to start converting more plasmaguns for my guard

Hey hey jokes on you necros. When the new IG codex comes out, plasma will be limited to one per platoon.

tkdarktrooper wrote:Well, instead of all of us speculating [and I am guilty of it as well], why don't we just stop talking about this thread and wait until the codex come out. I think that is the best thing to do at this moment, wait...that makes too much sense. Silly me for looking through rose-colored glasses.

Yeah. Really this thread reads as staggered pro and con posts about the new codex rumors. In a way that makes me think that what they get for their next codex may be pretty well balanced with other newer armies. We will see.

Jayden63 wrote:Looks stupidly unbalanced and under playtested. But Marines are GWs glory boys. So what else is new.

LOL

give it a chance dude - such negativity breads baldness, if your bald already now you know why ;-p

jfrazell wrote:Hey hey jokes on you necros. When the new IG codex comes out, plasma will be limited to one per platoon.

Heh, but really... Necros probably has until the middle of 2009 to worry about that.

Hey, Necros, do you mean to tell me that you didn't already have max plasgun models for your guard army? It's one of the only things IG has going for it!! Whats the matter with you?!?!

DeathGod wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:Looks stupidly unbalanced and under playtested. But Marines are GWs glory boys. So what else is new.

Ah, the height of mouthbreathing. How on Earth can you possibly make anything close to an educated statement on balance in a book you have never seen and have only typo-ridden rumor posts to base opinions on?

While I agree with the overall point you're trying to make (DON'T PANIC! ` at least, not yet!), the whole "mouthbreating" thing stopped being clever and/or funny after the first post you used it in...

Unless it is your Trademark Item?

Putting aside that these are at best shakey rumors, what might look unbalanced in 4ed may not be quite as good in 5ed.

Look at what was stated above on the vet assault marines. Sure they can assault after deep strike, but good luck getting within 6" without losing the squad to the new mishap table or dangerous terrain tests.

The voluntary fallback is nice, till you figure many assaults are more deadly overall now and most won't last past turn 1 anyways. It is still a great ability but will it be as good as it would have been in 4ed? I have my doubts.

Also, did you all really think they'd dump traits and shoe horn the Space marines into the Dark Angels style without something extra like the DA/BA got in return? It would have been the most bland codex ever. Like the 3ed one but worse.

Let's not forget that no point costs have been posted. If the new Land Raider is 500 points, it'll never see the field. Overall, I'm looking forward to it.

But, it typical GW mode, they screwed up the drop pod. Sure, now there's a kit. But, it's more points. And you can't get two special weapons in a tac squad. So, now that they finally have a model, it'll see a lot less play (assuming the rules are the same).

hehe my platoons have 1 plasma in each squad, I took the lascannons out to make HW teams with them so my units are more mobile. My 2 platoon command squads have 4 flamers, so there's 8 more plasmas I can add But then, when those 4 flamers go off, they still burn up marines pretty good.

if they do restrict the plasmas it won't be a big deal to pop off the plasma arms and switch to grenade lauchers which I keep hearing are getting buffed, or switch to meltas or something.

and yeah, i'm not worrying about it cuz it'll be quite a while till I have to change anything.....

Is it just me, or does voluntary fallback seem absolutely overpowered to me...

You move up, rapidfire that 30 man boyz squad (and/maybe) flamer template... get charged, voluntary fallback with your 1 or 2 remnants... as long as your flamer dude didn't die (i.e. put him WAY in the back) you can kill a WHOLE PILE of enemy dudes that are all bunched up.

Ugh.

Space Marines - universal rules and options that break the standard ruleset:

Ignores under 50% regroup rules: Check
Immune to being locked in assault: Check
Ignores standard regroup tests: Check
Basic troop can be made to two autonomous scoring units without giving up proportionate victory points for taking damage: Check
Transport capacity overages can be ignored when purchased for basic troops (see above): Check
May deepstrike regardless of mission: If desired
May assault after deepstrike: If desired

Luckily, the rumours seem to suggest that the following options from the V4 codex are gone (traits nonwithstanding)

Auto-Ld10 for everyone - since this would make the voluntary fallback pretty much automatically succeed.
Unlimited use 50% auto-negate psychic powers with psychic hood
Unlimited range no-LOS needing autosmite psychic power

Granted, this is outside the framework of playing games with the new dex in 5th edition... but it is interesting that Marines seem to be the ones getting lots of rules exceptions, where as traditional rule breaking armies like Eldar get saddled mostly with USRs.

Alpharius wrote:While I agree with the overall point you're trying to make (DON'T PANIC! ` at least, not yet!), the whole "mouthbreating" thing stopped being clever and/or funny after the first post you used it in...

Unless it is your Trademark Item?

I was just about to post something similar. It's not a word that should be used in every other sentence as a noun, verb, adjective and adverb...unlike F*&K, for instance. Now that's versatile. Mouthbreathing...not so much.

tkdarktrooper wrote:Well, instead of all of us speculating [and I am guilty of it as well], why don't we just stop talking about this thread and wait until the codex come out. I think that is the best thing to do at this moment, wait...that makes too much sense. Silly me for looking through rose-colored glasses.

Hear! Hear! That's the same point I was making with my previous post. Anyone heard of a release date for this mighty tome?

I sincerely hope that the other Marine codexs get a little of this.

Vet assaulters that can... actually assault on the turn they come in? BA (the once was Masters of Assault) would love this.

Scouts as Troops? Someone listened! Vindication!

Captains lose Rights of Battle? huh. Guess everyone missed the strategic planning meetings.

Orlanth: Combat squads = 5 or 10 man only. No flexibility in between.

And really folks, the half the fun of a message board is speculation.