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focusedfire wrote:I absolutely agree about a further defining, its why I think going back to the traditional definition will help. What this defining will lead to is one squad as an assault team and the other as ranged.Which is why I see them getting an assault 18" ranged weapon.
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Vets would be more skilled in set up of fields of fire and how to hit enemy armour. 2 lascannons in a squad with tankhunters?
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My personal experience in the military, was that the west pointers were better leaders than some rotc party boy that couldn't find a regular world job in their major so the military was their failsafe.
And training and education are the primary factors in the ranks up to seargent. Its why people graduate tech school at E-5.
Your having the choice deep strike or infiltrate effects how your opponent plans his deployment and builds his army. It's logical that its built into the cost.

I don't see the Hardend Veterans neccesarily being ranged combat specialists. I kinda see things flipped around a bit. Storm troopers, are mobile ranged combat. Hardend Veterans should represent the unit flexible and adaptable in the way they're kitted out and their ability to deal with different threats. Don't get me wrong, Storm Troopers should be good, but between Hardend Veterans and Storm Troopers, I see the Veterans being more flexible and maliable in their composition. I think giving Vet's "tank hunter" or something similar is appropriate, but I think the days of the pick and pay abilities are gone.

On your point of military leadership, I was only making an analogy to how storm troopers get to being storm troopers, not any sort of dis on the west pointers. I just think that analogy does the best at showing why and how storm troopers are better.

I agree that abilities should be included in the cost of a unit. Its the redundancy of abilities and the redundancy of that cost that are at issue. If you had a unit that can choose to infiltrate or deepstrike, do you go +1pt for one +2 for the other and make them built in costs at +3pts, even though the flexability is not worth +3pts, but +2pts at best? When you have two built in options you should only be charged for the best, especially when it can only be used to the exclusion of the other. I see a move away from this sort of pricing and I think SM sgts are an example.

BoxANT wrote:The idea of Veteran abilities was not so much to show that the Storm Troopers actually actually veterans, but more to show that the ST are equiped/specialized to take out a certain type of target for that mission.
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I think ST should be able to adapt to your opponent and be able to specialize in taking out a certain targets. Be it armor, high toughness, infantry, ect.

I'm not really sure how much specialized equipment they'd get. It seems a bit contradictory to call them specialist and adaptable, it seems like what you're trying to say is they are all around better. This very well may be the case, but what abilities do storm troopers have, whether due to their skill or equipment, that exceed a space marine.

aka_mythos wrote:I don't see the Hardend Veterans neccesarily being ranged combat specialists. I kinda see things flipped around a bit. Storm troopers, are mobile ranged combat. Hardend Veterans should represent the unit flexible and adaptable in the way they're kitted out and their ability to deal with different threats. Don't get me wrong, Storm Troopers should be good, but between Hardend Veterans and Storm Troopers, I see the Veterans being more flexible and maliable in their composition. I think giving Vet's "tank hunter" or something similar is appropriate, but I think the days of the pick and pay abilities are gone.

On your point of military leadership, I was only making an analogy to how storm troopers get to being storm troopers, not any sort of dis on the west pointers. I just think that analogy does the best at showing why and how storm troopers are better.

I agree that abilities should be included in the cost of a unit. Its the redundancy of abilities and the redundancy of that cost that are at issue. If you had a unit that can choose to infiltrate or deepstrike, do you go +1pt for one +2 for the other and make them built in costs at +3pts, even though the flexability is not worth +3pts, but +2pts at best? When you have two built in options you should only be charged for the best, especially when it can only be used to the exclusion of the other. I see a move away from this sort of pricing and I think SM sgts are an example.

BoxANT wrote:The idea of Veteran abilities was not so much to show that the Storm Troopers actually actually veterans, but more to show that the ST are equiped/specialized to take out a certain type of target for that mission.
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I think ST should be able to adapt to your opponent and be able to specialize in taking out a certain targets. Be it armor, high toughness, infantry, ect.

I'm not really sure how much specialized equipment they'd get. It seems a bit contradictory to call them specialist and adaptable, it seems like what you're trying to say is they are all around better. This very well may be the case, but what abilities do storm troopers have, whether due to their skill or equipment, that exceed a space marine.

Its the idea that you assume a hardened vet is some how automatically this close combat assault type. The majority of surviving vets will have never seen CC and even if hardened means that they have survived such it doesn't mean they are assaulters themselves. Just that they have survived being assaulted in a defensible position. Easier ot explain knowledge of CC as training oriented, therefor troopers. Also, look at their standard weapon load outs. Special ops gets special weapons,hence troopers.

If you want to swap the rolls then theres no reason for them to even get the assault hellgun you were talking about.

Yes, Storm Troopers are better and should have the weaponry, equipment, and tactics to reflect such. Something like a SoB without the bolter. A stat line like this:
WS4 BS4 S3 T3 I3 A1 Ld9 Sv 3+ With a S3 AP5 assault weapon.
You'd like a TL assault 2 range 24" . I like assault 3 range 18"or optional hellpistols and chainswords. I, would easily give up assault 3 for frag launch option that made hell guns rending. We both agree on 3 special weapons a squad, I just would like to see a new Trooper specific special weapon named the Hellshot to lay down suppressor fire. Either way at 12-14 pts a model still a bargain when you include deepstrike, infiltrate. You can even keep them as a troop option as far as I care.

You already know the build I like for hardened vets.

As far as built in option price, as a Tau player I agree. Would love it if my stuff cost less.

As to your reply to boxant'
There are more Storm toopers than Sms, Numbers Favour Troopers
They don't have to be genetically modified, Less resources investedw/ Troopers
You don't get just one squad of marines, less logistics w/ Troopers

I could see vets different in having more weaponry; being stubborn (or inversely cowards); and having the ability to shoot at a unit charging them in lieu of CC.

Storm troopers should never get power armor.
A storm trooper specific special weapon would raise questions why it doesn't exist in other better equiped imperial armies.

I don't believe Veterans should be strictly close combat either.

Storm Troopers are mobile ranged combat, they move around and shoot. Veterans I see being a little more like space marine scouts, getting stuck with certain duties that are high risk but don't neccesarily mean direct combat roles. Veterans would do recon and forward observer duties for a platoon, storm troopers would lead a spearhead of direct attack. Veterans would have more variety in their weaponry that would allow them more variation in how they're armed, so that they could be adapted to a number of situations, while storm troopers are out and out the better direct engagement unit.

Agreed. Storms cannot have PA, because that makes them Sisters. Storms have 4+.

aka_mythos wrote:Storm troopers should never get power armor.
A storm trooper specific special weapon would raise questions why it doesn't exist in other better equiped imperial armies.

I don't believe Veterans should be strictly close combat either.

Storm Troopers are mobile ranged combat, they move around and shoot. Veterans I see being a little more like space marine scouts, getting stuck with certain duties that are high risk but don't neccesarily mean direct combat roles. Veterans would do recon and forward observer duties for a platoon, storm troopers would lead a spearhead of direct attack. Veterans would have more variety in their weaponry that would allow them more variation in how they're armed, so that they could be adapted to a number of situations, while storm troopers are out and out the better direct engagement unit.

Storm Troopers already have a specific weapon. Special units get them all the time. Special weapons take special training. which Troopers get and Vets don't .Rest of army resents them as "glory boys" because of their equip and training.

Seems like a bit of a knee jerk reaction to the armour. Instead of Absolutely Not, Explain Why. They already work with SoB, weapons or armor not that big of a stretch. Tweak the storyline a little that the Troopers are a path to becoming an officer for those poor noble children.

Just cause you say Troopers are ranged mobile combat, doesn't make it so. Only thing that makes them that way is thats what the IG does now for everyone, except for basic troops. I thought you wanted them to stand out.

We both see the layout similarly just with different nomenclature. Storms as spearhead, Vets in a position to provide coverfire and heavy squad support with the wieght of the army not to far behind

Vets as similar to Scouts....eehhh....Known, plenty of army vets that couldn't out scout an air force security patrol. But the idea of them more lightly armed & armored I agree with. Problem is the vets should have some better armor and equip than the troops.

Edited 1 time for wording

the major difference is the armor

focusedfire wrote:
Storm Troopers already have a specific weapon. Special units get them all the time. Special weapons take special training. which Troopers get and Vets don't .Rest of army resents them as "glory boys" because of their equip and training.

When I say special weapon, I mean flamer/grenade launcher/plasma gun/meltagun. I also didn't mean they couldn't have such a weapon just that it would have to be justified as far as why they have it and the even more elite Space Marines don't.

focusedfire wrote:
Seems like a bit of a knee jerk reaction to the armour. Instead of Absolutely Not, Explain Why. They already work with SoB, weapons or armor not that big of a stretch. Tweak the storyline a little that the Troopers are a path to becoming an officer for those poor noble children.

Power armor is suppose to be rare. There are 1 Million Space Marines and 100000 Sisters of Battle together they have 99.999% of the imperiums power armor. Now we could stretch it, but when you consider with in the imperium there are Trillions of Imperial guard, of which if even 1% were storm troopers, thats 1 Billion suits of a very rare armor that would be needed. That 1000 times more than what currently exists in the imperium.

focusedfire wrote:
Just cause you say Troopers are ranged mobile combat, doesn't make it so. Only thing that makes them that way is thats what the IG does now for everyone, except for basic troops. I thought you wanted them to stand out.

They reportedly infiltrate and deep strike; they ride around in chimeras and valkyries, if all that isn't mobility I don't know what is. They have better than average ranged weapons and little or no close combat weapons, that sure sounds like they're ranged combat oriented. Hey just because it is that way, doesn't make it so.

focusedfire wrote:
We both see the layout similarly just with different nomenclature. Storms as spearhead, Vets in a position to provide coverfire and heavy squad support with the wieght of the army not to far behind

Vets as similar to Scouts....eehhh....Known, plenty of army vets that couldn't out scout an air force security patrol. But the idea of them more lightly armed & armored I agree with. Problem is the vets should have some better armor and equip than the troops.

When I said similar to scouts I meant in a couple of ways. First, I see scouts as having a wide variety in basic weapon choices, similarly the Hardend Veterans should have that as a defining charcteristic. Second, in the same way scout (bikes) will move ahead and prepare the battle field, I see veterans fulfilling that roll. Third in the same way that scouts play support by providing homing beacons so should veterans play a similar role, maybe callring artillery for example. So when I say similar to scouts I mean only to the degree of some of their specific roles and not necessarily in the actual "scouting" function or in armor. I'm not saying that Veteran recieve all those sorts of abilities just that giving them a couple of them would make them distinguishable from storm troopers in how they're used.

aka_mythos wrote:When I say special weapon, I mean flamer/grenade launcher/plasma gun/meltagun. I also didn't mean they couldn't have such a weapon just that it would have to be justified as far as why they have it and the even more elite Space Marines don't.

Power armor is suppose to be rare. There are 1 Million Space Marines and 100000 Sisters of Battle together they have 99.999% of the imperiums power armor. Now we could stretch it, but when you consider with in the imperium there are Trillions of Imperial guard, of which if even 1% were storm troopers, thats 1 Billion suits of a very rare armor that would be needed. That 1000 times more than what currently exists in the imperium.

They reportedly infiltrate and deep strike; they ride around in chimeras and valkyries, if all that isn't mobility I don't know what is. They have better than average ranged weapons and little or no close combat weapons, that sure sounds like they're ranged combat oriented. Hey just because it is that way, doesn't make it so.

When I said similar to scouts I meant in a couple of ways. First, I see scouts as having a wide variety in basic weapon choices, similarly the Hardend Veterans should have that as a defining charcteristic. Second, in the same way scout (bikes) will move ahead and prepare the battle field, I see veterans fulfilling that roll. Third in the same way that scouts play support by providing homing beacons so should veterans play a similar role, maybe callring artillery for example. So when I say similar to scouts I mean only to the degree of some of their specific roles and not necessarily in the actual "scouting" function or in armor. I'm not saying that Veteran recieve all those sorts of abilities just that giving them a couple of them would make them distinguishable from storm troopers in how they're used.

1) The marines already have the Holy Bolter. Plus S3 Assault whatever, either idea, doesn't equal the bolter. If the grenade launcher rending idea makes it equal well, thats a standard issue marine weapon versus an elite IG. As to the hellsot autoshotgun idea, the marines have been borrowing guns from the IG for a while. If its that good then the SMs will get it eventually. The marines already use a round called hellfire I'd say give them that except they'd have to get the bolter and we all agree that doesn't need to happen.

2) Thank you for the why, its much easier to exchange ideas when getting the thought behind a stance.
How about this: Power armor is designed to inter face with the weares body(kinda why its a waste of resources on SoB but how can you argue with sexy Joan of Arcs). Could say Troopers armor is recently a rediscovered STC carapace that has limted production capacity so they and officers are the only ones to get it. Doesn't have any of the cool, nifty power armour features for interfacing with weapons, strength enhancement, or invulnerables.It could be bulky and slow them down to initiative 2 just as long as there was a coverfire rule to equal it out. OR we could just up their initiative to a 4. Yeah, that would be simpler.

3)I agree that they are mobile. Think your to stuck on the current codex edition as to your view of the troopers. You say they're not worth taking because they don't do as good a job as the vets and that the vets are more versatile. You say this is a problem. Yet every idea to make them truly ditinctive & versatile you dismiss. Codex currently states only Trooper seargents get warrior weapons so it always has to be this way.
Who should be more like the average grunt, vets or Storms? Vets of course, so with Doctrines probably going the way of the do-do in the next edition probably not gonna see a lot of warrior weapon gaurd. As it is now vets get everything, even carapace under doctrines, while the better trained and "equipped" storms actually get less. The reason people don't use the storm troopers is because they don't Storm. Currently, every other codex out where the term storm is used the squad gets CC weapons. I'm hoping that GW fixes the Storms rather than continuing with the same broken, ineffective, &worthless pts waste that they currently are. I'd like to be getting ready for a game with my Tau and see the troopers come out of the case and think "uh-oh, gonna have to do something agout them".

4) You keep refering to making the vets different from the troopers. I, IMHO think the question should be how should a vet squad differ from the standard troop squad? Don't make them to different, just better in some areas. I think the only thing that is to much currently is them getting warrior weapons. Without training how do they suddenly get this. A couple of firefights doesn't make you a Brawler. It makes you learn how to take cover(stealth) how to shoot(the improved bs over standard gaurd) where to shoot from(so, ok, infiltrate) how to lay down effective coverfire(self explanatory) and what targets to shoot(so tank hunters as buyable upgrade). Closest they should get to Warrior weapons is bayonets. Once you've defined the vets then define the troopers as to the needs of the army.

1) Variation on a distinctly IG weapon would probably be the best approach to giving Storm Troopers additional special rules.

2) You're making non-power armor power armor. I think a more appropriate thing is more like your idea of a bonus to initiative. Some sort of battle field awarness HUD computer mounted in their helmet in addition to their targetters would make more sense than strength enhancements.

3) I think they're alright, not bad, not good. I field them. I think they only need moderate changes with a very minimal impact on cost. I'm more in favor of moving veterans away from being similar to storm troopers. I think tying some abilities of storm troopers into the use Valkaries may be another sort of advantage. Some sort of quick repel rule.

4) Vets were troopers once, their distinction is that they were the guys good enough to survive an assault by a wave of Orks, they were the lucky ones who didn't get killed by a plasma explosion. They'd have warrior weapons because after the sgts. in their platoon were blown to pieces they went over and "found" themselves a slightly used chainsword. Other than what you described I think most of any other abilities should be less about their own mojo, and more about supporting platoons and artillery. Called shots, where artillery can fire at a target, using the Vets BS and where indirect fire shots can be fired as if they were direct fire shots as long as the Vets have line of sight. This moves them away from being an IG squad thats remarkable because they have more guns than storm troopers.

I like this middle ground you speak of. We may disagree on the warrior weapons but everything else would definitley be an improvement.

It's probalby to much(I tend to shoot for the stars then let people negotiate me towards a middle point) but an IG rule to where you have to wipe the whole platoon for the KP would be "insanely" delicious.

Saw this picture of WIP Plastic Stormtrooper and noticed that he has a very large shotgun. Could not help but wonder if this perhaps is the Str4 shotgun that SM scouts get. Perhaps instead of improving the Hellgun, they will just give ST access to this better shotgun?

They should have *both*:

- S5 AP- Rapid-Fire Hellguns
- S4 AP- Assault 2 Shotguns

... they will never get S5 AP- guns as standard

GW is more likely to invent a rule that lets them cut down the enemys save (which isn't likely)

Thats one big gun, wonder what i'll do ...must be Str:4

I don't think Str5 is all that unreasonable since its a very confined weapon choice. Lets look at it another way. Str4 Assault 2 shotguns are superior to the hellgun, so we can say they'll be an upgrade costing some additional number of points. In a more practical way they should be relatively equal in value with a trade off for going from the basic armament hellgun to the more specialized shotgun.

I'll be happy if they just give them access to Str4 Shotguns, even if that's the only change they get. They'll actually be somewhat effective at short ranges at that point. Throw in a Power Weapon Sergeant and two Flamethrowers and you've got a decent short-range CQB specialist unit.

CK

Maybe its a shotgun that fires Hellfire rounds

ok there are way GW will give Str:5 as standard ... short range 6-12" ... make it heavy ... gets hot ... or make it cost alot

@Tri: Why are you dead set against Storms having a decent weapon?

A S5 Lasgun doesn't need to be Heavy or Get Hot - at 10 pts per model, they cost plenty enough already.

Keep in mind that the Storm power backpack and hellgun are considerably larger than a Plasma or Meltagun, roughly equal in size to a Plasma, Melta, *and* Flamer combined.

It's a big weapons system.

dead set against Storms having a decent weapon? no ... theres just got to be a balance ... Storms cost what they do because they've got carpace armour ... may be they'll get some other freebees (like infiltrate / deepstrike) but its highly unlikely they get S:5 guns ...

"Keep in mind that the Storm power backpack and hellgun are considerably larger than a Plasma or Meltagun, roughly equal in size to a Plasma, Melta, *and* Flamer combined" wow its got a bigger battery ... its still a lasgun ... if any thing it should have more shots

Under 5E rules, a Guardsman is worth roughly 4 pts.

If you make him BS4 Ld8, he is worth 5 pts.

If you give him Carapace, he is worth 6 pts.

If you let him Deep Strike, then he is worth 8 pts.

But he currently costs 10 pts.

It takes a S5 gun to make him worth his points.

(Off-topic) @John,

So what are Fire warrioirs worth at bs3 ws2 s3 t3 I2 a1 w1 and sv 4+ with pulse rifle?
Just curious.

worth 4pts? debateable ... conscripts at 4pts can cause large problems regular guards ment would be even more so ...

no think the points are about right for what they can do its just they get shafted by the doctrins ...

Tri wrote:worth 4pts? debateable ... conscripts at 4pts can cause large problems regular guards ment would be even more so ...

no think the points are about right for what they can do its just they get shafted by the doctrins ...

Spoken like a tru SPACERS MARINES ROXRS player. Anyone who thinks that stormies are fine at there current points level... Well I would have to question that persons ability to contribute a valid point.

lol, i think they need a tweek ... if you agree with johns 6pts that fine ... IMHO 10pts covers what they get stat line, wargear and gun ..yes they should get the speical rules free

quick compair ...
>firewarriors same cost, must buy grenades, worse Ws, Bs, I, Ld no real gun options... but they get a better standard gun
>dire Avengers cost 2pts more, better WS,I,Ld and standard gun ... but they only get the one gun and no grenades
>SM Scouts cost 5-3pts more (first 5 = 15pts) ...better WS, S, T, I, Ld(but only on the sargent) better standard gun

focusedfire wrote:(Off-topic) @John,

So what are Fire warrioirs worth at bs3 ws2 s3 t3 I2 a1 w1 and sv 4+ with pulse rifle?
Just curious.

Tau have a similar problem as Guard, in that they were created when longer-ranged shooting was far more valuable than it is today, so they similarly overpay for their 30" S5 AP5 guns.

Like Guardsmen, Tau have similar basic effectiveness issues when you consider Boyz are only 6 pts, and Grots are 3 pts. The new Ork Codex really reset the bounds for where "cheap" models should be costed.

Considering their role in the Tau army, I think Fire Warriors are worth 8, maybe 9, pts in their current incarnation. 10 pts, if they can have full-option Gun Drones (I think GW doesn't do nearly enough with Gun Drones as an army and unit differentiator).

All someone has to do is play a grenadier and/or storm trooper heavy list to see you end up over paying for the unit. Comparing them to them to a tau unit will result in a skewed perspective since the comparable tau units have equally flawed pricing. They're a good unit, but they struggle to ever make back their points. They shouldn't be made cheaper, because IG need a unit that much better point wise and ability wise, while leaving characteristic room between human troops and Space marines.

Storm troopers need to be better and they don't need to be marines (HuRR!) to do it.

I like the Idea of a shotgun that fires Hellfire rounds or is S4 with no cover save. Personally think its big enough for the Hellfires. That, IMHO, wouldn't make them SMs.

It hard to argue that currently the basic guardsmen is *not* overpriced. He was fine in 4th, but with 6 point shoota boyz and SM getting all that free stuff, the lowly guardsmen is falling behind :(

Of course, the 10 point stormtrooper was never really good point wise and is only worse now. I do not want to see a point reduction for stormies, would much rather see a power increase. Str4 shotguns would help, but not buffing hellguns would not help all of us with metal stormies :( Again, I would love to see the hellgun be S3 assault2 24". Both the new hellgun and a powerful shotgun would go a long way in making stormies more of a real option.

I can hardly wait for the new codex. The IG player in our group has been very frustrated and mopey since the new edition.

Also hope the storms are really mean seeing as they are a central part of his IG/Inquisition army.