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i was perusing my Imperial guard codex and was hoping to do something new with my storm troopers because i never use them. i wanted to give them heavy weapons but there is no option for them to do so in the codex. this makes no sense to me because Vetrans can take them and they cost less points (and are better in my opinion). i would appreciate any thoughts on this issue

Storm Troopers have a specialized role in the fluff, and that role doesn't include carrying heavy weapons (which would slow them down).

They are the kind of unit that infiltrates or drops down through skylights in a movie and assassinates the priority target.

If heavy weapons are needed for the job then its not the right job for storm troopers (by the fluff).

Yep. If you can't pop it with a melta gun, then you probably want to be shooting it from further away in your basic flak armour..

yakface wrote:

They are the kind of unit that... drops down through skylights in a movie and assassinates the priority target.

All priority targets take note. Try not to have skylights in your Head Quarters

or if you are going to have skylights, for god's sake reinforce those bad boys

Drunkspleen wrote:or if you are going to have skylights, for god's sake reinforce those bad boys

Or build a punji pit underneath it!

good points lol. my other question is why do hellguns suck so much!?! it says something about the codex when many player would rather spend points on other stuff than their elites

Hellguns suck because that's how GW made them.

I've done some of my own playtesting, and have come to the conclusion that for their points cost a Hellgun is more deserving of one of the following two statlines:

Hellgun
Ra24"; Str3; AP5; Assault 2

Hellgun
Ra24"; Str4; AP6; Rapid Fire

I'm more partial to the first fire type, as I believe Storm Troopers are supposed to be a highly mobile shock infantry that fight with a tenacity matched in the IG Codex only by the attacks from an unexpected quarter of a Hardened Veteran Squad.

However, I'm not on the dev team. So they still suck.

CK

because a hellgun, and by association a hellpistol, is nothing more than a turbocharged lasgun, or laspistol, with the word SUCK written in big letters next to the imperial aquila.

period.

~Bart

I am also a fun of the Str3 AP5 Assault2 24" Hellgun. Make it IG's version of the Stormbolter.

But look at it this way, they're great for denying armor saves to those pesky traitor guard!

or its good for the traitor guard to not let the regular guard not have armour saves

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:Hellgun Ra24"; Str4; AP6; Rapid Fire

Most of their activity happens <12" (Plasma rapid-fire, Melta), so Rapid-fire is better. S4 is correct, so at that point, you might as well give them Bolters.

Or mini-Multi-Lasers:

Hellgun R24" S5 AP- Rapid Fire.

I would prefr a statline that makes hell guns unique in the game, not just bolter clones.

Something like: R 18, S 3, AP 6, assault 3.

They would tear though light infantry and may actually make a dent in MEQ's, although a small dent it may be. Basically for a squad that is usaually all on their own they need to be throwing out more shots.

Gah, could people stop with the S3 Hellguns?

Think about Storms and what they do, along with the rest of the army.

The *last* thing that Storms need is a S3 gun in a veritable sea of S3 guns. If a Guard player wants S3 guns, he can pay half as much for each gun through more Infantry, without burning an Elite slot. Sure, they're AP5, but with over half of any event being MEQs, AP5 might as well be AP-. And Assault 2 or Assault 3? Who cares? It's still a S3 Lasgun.

And Storms are useless from a Special Weapons platform as well, being limited to only 2 Specials, with NO Heavies. Veterans are also BS4, but can take 3 Specials *and* a Heavy, so Vets clearly outlcass Storms from that perspective as well.

And burning a Docrtrine point (soon to be a moot point) is for Storms as Troops is weak because Guard can always take a couple Inq. Storms as (non-Compulsory) Troops.

So when you look at them, Storms really have no place in a Guard army. Not overcosted, with poorer weapons options compared to Veterans, and (effectively) the same S3 Lasguns as regular Guard.

In 2E, they were S4+, and that's really what they should be.

If people don't want them to have Bolters (so they don't compete with awesome Sisters of Battle), then the only remaining choice is to bump up to S5. As they're still Las, you keep AP-.

With S5, you can glance any Rhino / Razorback, and Penetrate AV10. You can fan down light Skimmers and Kans. Little dudes (T3 GEQs) are wounded on a 2+, and likely die due to having poor saves. On a 6, you can even wound T8 Wraithlords (it'll probably save, but 1/3 of the time you get lucky). S5 Hellgun makes Storms into a useful unit with a distinctive capability.

As previously stated a Hell gun is a las gun with an over charged battery (hot shot rounds) the purpose is to punch through armor. The str. dosent do anything, its all about AP.
Think of a standard 5.56 nato round compared to a 5.56 AP round. The bullet is the same just one is designed to go through armor, as a storm trooper would want to put targets down quickly and not have to shoot them multiple times. Remember Fluff wise it makes sense, 99.99% of the population dosent walk around in carapace or power armor (as opposed to the game where 99.99% of the models have power armor)and 99% of enemies are T3 as opposed to 99% of the models played in the game. So when we read the books who are gaurdsmen usually fighting? Traitor gaurd, orks, etc... all of which usually have flak armor or some variant of it. When they do run into the odd power armor wearing behemoth its usually a small squad of 5, but thats rare. So thats why stormies have melta guns, plasma guns for the ocassional hard target. They dont need heavy weapons because usually they are up close and personal.

Now if say the round had more STR and AP, the general weight of the weapon would increase as well as limiting ammo capacity. Stormies dont want to carry more weight than they have to and having to stop and change cells every 5 shots because the batteries keep draining would really suck. So stick with the hell gun, decent ammo capacity, decent AP. The gun has the str to hurt the majority of stormies targets and the AP to defeat most armor (again fluff wise not game wise)

But in general yes hell guns suck, they hurt most targets on a 5+ and most armor is better than the AP of the weapon. But I assume all of that will change if and when the new codex comes out. Very few people play gaurd (even fewer in 5th) so it would be nice to seem them playable again.

That being said I really hope they make stormtroopers playable in the next gaurd codex, Ive always wanted to do a gaurd assault army.

The default Fluff target of a Stormtrooper has poor body armor, so AP5 is meaningless.

However wounding the target on a 2+ is useful.

Hence, S5 AP-.


OTOH, S3 is useless, so why bother with it?

Same stats as an ion rifle? I'd make sure its limited in range to normal rapid fire distance 24". This would follow some fluff of being more of a heavy hitter.

Or inversely really tick off the Spazz Marinez Hurr and make it S3 AP3 rapid fire -a kind of wussy plasma. Everything they carry could then deal with armor but maintains fluff iof being an armor penetrator. Give them the marine shotgun option for higher strength.

John, because Storm Troopers are supposed to be mobile Elite. If you incorporated a rule for them that any special weapons they fielded could be fired as per their normal type or as Assault 1, you'd have a mobile unit that would be able to keep pace with the enemy while maintaining a decent combat radius.

The Str3 and Assault 2 is to represent the improved firing rate on a weapon that is already appropriately powered. They should be drowing their opponent with Hellfire, not throwing out a few high-strength shots -- that's what a Shas'la does.

Besides, 2 Str3 BS4 shots is comparable to a single Str4 BS4 shot. Against MEQ, the Assault 2 Hellgun kills 0.148 Marines, while a Bolter only kills 0.111. The disparity switches around in favor of Bolters at close range, encouragin Storm Troopers to play the range game via maneuver warfare. Against GEQ, the Assault 2 Hellgun drops 0.667 Guardsmen, while a Bolter only pops 0.444. Again, at closer ranges, the Bolter is superior, again encouraging Storm Troopers to keep their enemies at arm's length.

Does it make sense now?

CK

No, it doesn't.

S3 guns of any sort are a poor choice for Storms because they don't do anything interesting or distinctive.

Your whole argument of A2 or A3 S3 Hellguns is based on the premise that Storms are already worth taking and that S3 is already useful.

That premise is patently false.

The current Storms do absolutely nothing that other units don't do better and cheaper. Guardsmen are better for massed S3 and ranged games. Veterans are better for Specials.

And the idea that A2 S3 is somehow comparable to S4 RF is utter nonsense. Just put a Rhino wtih PMSB on the board, and we'll see who wins the shootout. Heck, make it an AV10 OT Vyper, and the Storms still lose.

Either S4 Bolters or S5 AP- RF guns would make more sense.

Also, I wasn't aware that IG had access to Shaslas that competed with Storms.

But even if they did, Storms have the "good" Sv4+ armor and close-range Assault weapons to operate up close. Let the Hellgun be similarly useful up close as well by double-tapping S5.

You conveniently forgot the Assault 1 caveat for Specials that I mentioned.

In addition, you clearly did not actually try to math out what I was saying with regard to the A2 Str3 Hellgun and Bolter being comparable. Stormies will outshoot Bolter Marines from >12" with standard weapons if the Storm Troopers have A2 Hellguns.

Guard are not close range brawlers, regardless of what you kit them out with. Giving Storm Troopers A2 Hellguns in conjunction with the Special weapons addendum make them excellent mid-range rifle teams with man-portable weapons to add a little punch. You want massed S3 gunlines, you need look no further than the Infantry Platoon. They are as immobile as they are expendable.

Storm Troopers present a Guard player the option of taking mobile units of soldiers with enhanced survivability and improved accuracy, not to be a one-hit wonder against a closing enemy squad. Currently, there is no place in the Guard Codex to field infantry units that rely on maneuver warfare without ODing on special weapons. Stormies are the Elite, and are supposed to excel at this. Why not make them the ones to take up the mantle?

Apparently the word "distinctive" has nothing to do with finesse gameplay. Any idiot can load up a suicide team of Rapid-Firing Str5 guns and doubletap them alongside a pair of Plasmas into an enemy squad. In case you didn't get that memo, that's what Quadruple-Flamer Command Squads currently are used for, and they've got that task down good.

"Distinct" can mean many things. "Distinctly Cookie Cutter" is one label I would prefer to keep off Storm Trooper Squads. Making them suicide counter charge units like 4x Flamer Commands and 3x Plasma Hardened Veterans would do just that.

CK

1. Storm Special weapons aren't the primary problem, because, while Storms can get them, Veterans can get more. Also, Assault weapons aren't thematic to the Imperial armies. Rapid-Fire is. Also Meltas, Flamers and GLs are already Assault weapons. So all of this is window dressing masking the fundamental problem of Storms with S3 guns.

2. The math isn't important, because S3 isn't a good idea. So I ignore it entirely. It's like putting a silk dress on a pig - still an ugly pig.

3. Guard are mostly long-range. Storms, OTOH, with their multiple Flamers and Meltas and Rapid-Fire Plasma *are* close-range. And if you're aware that Platoons give massed S3, why are you even bothering with S3 Hellguns again? Guard aren't a maneuver warfare army. Nor should they be. That is what Eldar and Dark Eldar are for. The Guard is a slow grind. And Storms are point teams in this force.

Guard aren't a "finesse" army, nor should they be. Eldar are the finesse army. Guard should be simple and obvious. Why you suggest Gaurd should be anything else is beyond me.

If, by "Distinct" you want an Eldar unit in a Guard army, I think that's a bad idea. As fundamental Troops, Storms are just as iconically ordinary as Guard, Sisters, and Marines, and should have more in common with those units than any other. That means Rapid-Fire 24" basic guns. Not Assault 24" guns.

Honestly, John.

1. Storm Special weapons aren't the primary problem, because, while Storms can get them, Veterans can get more.

Veterans are also a one-trick pony -- you take three Plasma or Melta, Deep Strike them and viola, dead tank. Followed shortly be dead Vets. Storm Troopers are the soldiers with the flexibility to apply force where necessary, like what Vets do, while remaining a maneuverable, fundamental part of a Guard commander's arsenal.

Also, Assault weapons aren't thematic to the Imperial armies. Rapid-Fire is.

Really? I thought the Guard relied on Heavy Weapons and tanks to get the job done...

I guess all those Plasma and Flame weapons that they always bring to bear are a bunch of hallucinated bs too.

Also Meltas, Flamers and GLs are already Assault weapons. So all of this is window dressing masking the fundamental problem of Storms with S3 guns.

Maybe I should better articulate my idea -- that Storm Troopers would have access to, say, a Heavy Stubber or Man-Portable Multilaser. I guess I never got around to pointing that out since you seemed to be so eager to jump on my A2 Hellgun idea.

2. The math isn't important, because S3 isn't a good idea. So I ignore it entirely. It's like putting a silk dress on a pig - still an ugly pig.

How do you expect me to take your side of this discussion seriously if you simply dismiss everything that others contribute?

I guess I shouldn't be surprised...Where's HBMC with a zinger?

3. Guard are mostly long-range.

Yet Rapid Fire is what Guard are all about...hmm...

Storms, OTOH, with their multiple Flamers and Meltas and Rapid-Fire Plasma *are* close-range. And if you're aware that Platoons give massed S3, why are you even bothering with S3 Hellguns again?

We've already got Bolter Marines, why did they make Terminator Storm Bolters Str4? Those bastards!

Guard aren't a maneuver warfare army. Nor should they be. That is what Eldar and Dark Eldar are for. The Guard is a slow grind. And Storms are point teams in this force.

And what does every point team have in common? The ability to move. Veterans got this via Infiltrate, there's no reason why Storm Troopers should not get the ability to move and shoot at full effect. Nothing else in the army can do that. Giving an army some variation in the types of units they can field (which, in the case of the Guard, is pretty much just the sit and shoot flavor of unit) allows for different configurations of each list to be built. Doctrines tried to do this, making different types of units is an even better method of executing the same concept.

Guard aren't a "finesse" army, nor should they be. Eldar are the finesse army. Guard should be simple and obvious. Why you suggest Gaurd should be anything else is beyond me.

I'm not suggesting that Guard have be a "finesse" army. I'm suggesting they have access to a somewhat agile mid-range shooting unit. Is it too much to ask for something other than "sit and shoot type A" and "sit and shoot type B?"

Eldar are a finesse army because everything they have is fast and agile. Having a single unit with a rapier amongst an army of English long swords does not make Guard a "finesse" army. It makes them a generally "slow grind" army with some choices.

If, by "Distinct" you want an Eldar unit in a Guard army, I think that's a bad idea.

Judging by how much thought you put into my previous points, I'm not sure I can convince myself to care what you think. At least, not any more than the amount it took to rebut you.

As fundamental Troops, Storms are just as iconically ordinary as Guard, Sisters, and Marines, and should have more in common with those units than any other. That means Rapid-Fire 24" basic guns. Not Assault 24" guns.

If by "iconically ordinary" you mean "the Imperial Guard Elite" perhaps...

That is terrible logic, John. Because they bear a similarity in function to other armies doesn't mean they should be stunted from growing into a flavorful addition to a Guard army while providing enough utility that they actually see the field more often.

If they were supposed to bear commonality with Marines and Sisters, they'd have Power Armor. If they were supposed to bear commonality with Guard, they'd suck at shooting.

They are the mid-range between the two because that is "distinctly" their iconic place -- the creme de la creme of Human soldiership short of becoming a Space Marine. From a design standpoint, they should not be leaning on the concepts of other Imperial Armies simply because they're fighting on the same side.

CK

S4 shotguns. All problems solved. Capable of putting reliable wounds on all MEQs with assault options versus GEQs.

Honestly, S5? Why in the world would Storms tote something on par with heavy bolters? The Heavy Bolter is almost as large as their entire body, and these guys are all supposed to have miniaturized technology on par or better than Astartes?

I'm actually with JohnHwangDD on this one. The Hellgun is limited in what it can be, by virtue of the bolter. As an all around general issue weapon, it can't really exceed the bolter, or else marines would use it. Meaning for it to be good, in any way, it has to be a weapon with a trade off, in this case AP- for S5. It fits with relation to bolters both rules wise and fluffwise, it brings something new, but fair, to the army at large.

Except that it's just silly ruleswise, and impossible to justify, both ruleswise and fluffwise.

Give the mutability of Fluff and rules, it most certainly is justifiable.

Storms are baseline Troops, like Sisters, Guard, and Marines. Ergo, they need a 24" RF gun. Guard Lasgun is S3 AP-, but the Storm Hellgun should be more akin to a S4 AP5 Bolter. As we don't want another Bolter, trade S5 against Lasgun-like AP-.

Model-wise, it's a Lasgun with a big power pack, so S5 is justifiable.

Fluff-wise, it's better than a Lasgun.

Our Hellguns are:

R30 S3 AP5 Rapid Fire or R30 S6 AP4 Rapid Fire/Gets Hot!

Works quite well. A unit of them can appear behind a tank and just shoot it to death.

BYE

The best Hellgun, however, is Assault 3 R24" Str 3 Ap5, without a doubt.

Fluffwise, this IS better than a lasgun. I've said it before, but this is similar to bolters. Without the cookie-cutter Str 4 Ap 5.

But even if you disagree with my idea, the Hellgun should be at very least Assault. Rapid fire is the worst weapon type in the entire game, and is entirely unsuited for troops who are supposed to be on the move, and not stationary.

Also the other problem is that Hellguns aren't bolters. They shouldn't be. They're different.

The idea I mentioned above just positively annihilates T 3, but does worse and worse as you go up the ladder of Toughness. And we all know what happens when you go up against high T, right? Plasma guns!

But for general all-purpose, my suggested profile is the most effective.

"most effective"?

OK, I have Rhinos and Landspeeders...

Guys, don't argue with DD. There's no point. He will simply restate his own argument - flaws or no flaws - with out change over and over again until everyone grows tired of arguing with him and gives up, at which point he'll claim 'victory'.

And that's assuming you can even work out what he's talking about first!

So, as I've said a few times before, the easiest way to fight a wall is to walk away from it.

BYE