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Good call, HBMC.

See ya guys.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Give the mutability of Fluff and rules, it most certainly is justifiable

If we're playing Hwanghammer, where basic las weaponry can blow Typhus into smoking oblivion. Boy, I can see that fluff now.

trade S5 against Lasgun-like AP-

I don't know what imaginary number sphere you pulled that conversion out of. Strength 5 AP - is better than S4 Ap5 any day of the week. I'm completely baffled how you could justify that.

Model-wise, it's a Lasgun with a big power pack, so S5 is justifiable.

Go look at the Imperial Guard heavy bolter. That's a S5 weapon. Now go look at the Imperial Guard backpack/hellgun combo. Wow, that's totally the same. Using your metrics, we can save the American auto industry by reducing vehicle size to something approximately as large as toaster. It'll require far fewer resources while being just as good. You're a goddamn genius.

Its unfortunately a problem of just being restricted by pre-established values. If it were to be S4 AP-, it'd be the shotgun, where does that leave it? If its S4 AP5 its a bolter. The only other thing you could do is have it be S4 AP- with some special rule, like rending *role eyes*, but even that makes the shotgun moot.

What's wrong with giving a 10 point model a S4 shotgun? Why do Stormtroopers, who are certainly elite soldiers as reflected by their superior Ballistic Skill, have to be turned into Super Ultra Kill Guys? 9 Stormtroopers with S5 AP/- hellguns would absolutely wipe the floor with a comparable number of points of any other unit.

Weapon Strength and Armor Piercing rating are not 1:1 trades. S6/Ap- bolters are disgustingly better than regular bolters. Modifying AP generally makes a weapon better or worse at killing the targets that it's already decent at killing. Modifying Strength makes a weapon just as good or better at killing what it used to, while also opening up a giant new range of AV and higher T models that it becomes viable against.

Lasguns are poor, shotguns used to be poor, then they made them S4 AP-, where before they shared the same Str and AP. Its seems pretty clear stormtroopers will have the option to take shotguns, so how would a hellgun be different?

The power pack with a hellgun is as big if not bigger than a special weapon. I think the hellgun really needs to be looked at as a weaker special weapon rather than a juiced up standard issue weapon. The hellgun can be seen as the special weapon, in the lasgun and multilaser family.

Some vairations and alternative:
R24 S5 AP- Assault 1
R24 S5 AP- RF, Get Hot!
R24 S4 AP- RF, Rending

I think the stat line of S5 AP- can work with consideration to the other values. When you look at the distinction made between standard marines and the Sternguard the power jump is noticable, a whole squad effectively armed with special weapons. With IG in all the continued fixation being poor for the sake of being poor have the least distinction between their basic troops and their elites. Armed with the toned down special weapon version of a lasgun, all I can say is "gasp", then they might be worth 10pts.

S4/assault 2 R12" with frag/krak grenades and a 4+ armor save costed at 8-9 points base is effective and reflects Storm Troopers accurately within the fluff. They're well-equipped, elite warriors based on the sucky and fragile human body.

Hellguns aren't bolters. And they're certainly not better than bolters. Backpack size is irrelevant; Space Marine melta/plasma guns don't even have backpacks. Backpacks reflect the bulkier, less efficient and modernized technology supplied en masse to the Guard.

The problem everyone has with Stormtroopers is that they cost 10 points when the basic IG is 6 and rumored to go down to 4. Instead of making whacky rules to shoehorn them into this 10 point threshold, just cost them appropriately from the get-go.

When it comes to the elite options of the Imperial Guard, they shouldn't be made cheaper they should be made that much better. I'm not really sure how reinforcing the uniqueness of their armament is a shoehorning of the unit. 8, 9, or 10 pts they should maintain their basic point cost and just be made more worth while. If they need to be cheaper decrease their weapon upgrade costs. The idea of giving them bolters sounds like the corner their being painted into, but I really don't want to see them become marines. There has to be some middle ground between platoon guardsmen and marine, that isn't so close to line guardsmen end of the spectrum.

The fixation that they're just human and so should remain unchanged is silly, in every other army in this game units have gotten more powerful, on a relative scale IG should have as well, but instead the army continues to move in the opposite direction of being made relatively weaker and cheaper, requiring ever more models. Personally, I'm just running out of table top space to deploy on and am hitting that tipping point where the amount of fun I have plateaus and decreases proportionately to the number of models I have to field.

aka_mythos wrote:in every other army in this game units have gotten more powerful

Decreasing cost makes your army more powerful by letting you play with more "points" than your opponent. Codex: Orks is the most glaringly obvious example. Codex: Space Marines on the other hand does give more abilities to units, but at the appropriate points investment. Regardless, your statement about everything simply becoming more powerful is patently false. The Ork Boy is still S3 and the Space Marine is still 4's across the board.

opposite direction of being made relatively weaker and cheaper

If C:Orks is any indication, cheaper is not weaker.

Personally, I'm just running out of table top space to deploy on and am hitting that tipping point where the amount of fun I have plateaus and decreases proportionately to the number of models I have to field.

Turning Imperial Guard into Imperial Eldar is not the answer. If you don't like fielding hordes and hordes of men with lasguns, I'd advise playing Mech Guard or Sisters of Battle. Imperial Guard are not meant to be a small, elite army of high powered weaponry.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Give the mutability of Fluff and rules, it most certainly is justifiable.

Storms are baseline Troops, like Sisters, Guard, and Marines. Ergo, they need a 24" RF gun. Guard Lasgun is S3 AP-, but the Storm Hellgun should be more akin to a S4 AP5 Bolter. As we don't want another Bolter, trade S5 against Lasgun-like AP-.

Model-wise, it's a Lasgun with a big power pack, so S5 is justifiable.

Fluff-wise, it's better than a Lasgun.

Storm troopers aren't baseline troops - they are Elites.

So what do elites do? They specialize at something. Presently, all of the elites has a specialty. Ogryns, albeit terrible at the role, have an okay go at hand to hand. Ratlings cook well and snipe better. Veterans bring the most firepower possible in a ten man squad (though presently, all they tend to do is drop, kill a tank and then die). Tech priests fix your immobilized vehicles and pack servitor punch. What does a storm trooper do that justifies this elite status?

Per the fluff, the storm troopers are the mobile troops who are highly trained and possess dual degrees in Murderology and Murderonomy. They're big toy soldiers who are the missing link between the guardsmen and the marines - quite similar to a space marine scout in many ways.

They are not, however, running around with guns that pack a similar punch to a heavy bolter, which are rapid fire and generally make them a guard unit with a higher BS and carapace.

Make their hellguns S 3 AP 5 assault 2. Give them options to make their special weapons assault weapons. Left them outflank decisely with their assault weapons. Let them be a mobile fighting force. Determine what their specialty will be, and follow through with appropriate game design which makes them useful and affordable for what they should do. Don't make them what veterans are now - a way to drop in, shoot something up and then die in the next turn.

sourclams wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Give the mutability of Fluff and rules, it most certainly is justifiable

If we're playing Hwanghammer, where basic las weaponry can blow Typhus into smoking oblivion. Boy, I can see that fluff now.

Typhus is already vulnerable to Las weapons, so "Hwanghammer" isn't needed.

But I'll remind you to be polite in the future.

sourclams wrote:

trade S5 against Lasgun-like AP-

I don't know what imaginary number sphere you pulled that conversion out of. Strength 5 AP - is better than S4 Ap5 any day of the week. I'm completely baffled how you could justify that.

There are very few alternatives in terms of what can be done given the numerical workspace available, given that we're talking about AP- Las weapons. S5 AP- slots between the S3 AP- Lasgun and S6 AP- Multi-laser.

S4 AP- is just a 24" RF Shotgun, but it's easy to remember rules-wise.

sourclams wrote:

Model-wise, it's a Lasgun with a big power pack, so S5 is justifiable.

Go look at the Imperial Guard heavy bolter. That's a S5 weapon. Now go look at the Imperial Guard backpack/hellgun combo. Wow, that's totally the same. Using your metrics, we can save the American auto industry by reducing vehicle size to something approximately as large as toaster. It'll require far fewer resources while being just as good. You're a goddamn genius.

Thanks for stating the obvious. Too bad Dakka rules on politenesss don't allow me to comment on (or label) your level of intelligence (or glaringly obvious lack thereof...).

But it's nice to know that you're a pure Spaz Marinz player, which is why you look at AP4 the same as AP-. Tau players and traitor Storms might disagree with that sentiment, though...

Then again, I that's why I guess I'm the "genious" and you're not...

sourclams wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:in every other army in this game units have gotten more powerful

Decreasing cost makes your army more powerful by letting you play with more "points" than your opponent.

Your statement has little to do with what I said, I said:

in every other army in this game units have gotten more powerful

Look at what happened to basic space marine veterans, the sternguard are clearly better than their previous edition counter parts. I want the unit improved, not the points balanced, not made uber awesome to the max, improved. IG are so low on the totem pole there really isn't too much lower.... we could be grots, we could always be grots.

sourclams wrote:

opposite direction of being made relatively weaker and cheaper

If C:Orks is any indication, cheaper is not weaker.

Once again though, their decrease in general cost was something seperate to the improvements made to units.

sourclams wrote:Turning Imperial Guard into Imperial Eldar is not the answer. If you don't like fielding hordes and hordes of men with lasguns, I'd advise playing Mech Guard or Sisters of Battle. Imperial Guard are not meant to be a small, elite army of high powered weaponry.

I'm not trying to field an army of elites, with the exception of when I do play my mech guard, I only field one stormtrooper squad. I'm not saying turn the IG into Eldar, I'm saying that there is a strong inconsistency between what IG consider "elite" relative to troops and what other armies do. With other armies there is this balancing act of deciding do I take more elites or troops, more sternguard or more space marines, thats because there is a true trade off. With IG unless you're playing an army purely for flavor you'll almost always go with just taking more troops because there simply isn't enough of an advantage or reason to take their elite choices. Cheapening those elite choices won't matter if they're done proportionate to the basic platoon. The army has been pigeon holed into a limited number of play styles and one cause is the lack of significant elite assets. The main reason I've known people to take elite choices at all is because they don't want to paint anymore basic guardsmen. In fairness, right now the most viable IG elite choice is the veteran squad, yet really they're the most like basic line guardsmen but should have the fewest advantages over the other elite choices. Other hoarde armies have significant elite options without diminishing the spirit of their army, why can't guard?

bryantsbears wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Give the mutability of Fluff and rules, it most certainly is justifiable.

Storms are baseline Troops, like Sisters, Guard, and Marines. Ergo, they need a 24" RF gun. Guard Lasgun is S3 AP-, but the Storm Hellgun should be more akin to a S4 AP5 Bolter. As we don't want another Bolter, trade S5 against Lasgun-like AP-.

Model-wise, it's a Lasgun with a big power pack, so S5 is justifiable.

Fluff-wise, it's better than a Lasgun.

Storm troopers aren't baseline troops - they are Elites.

They are not, however, running around with guns that pack a similar punch to a heavy bolter,

Make their hellguns S 3 AP 5 assault 2.

Stormtroopers *are* baseline Troops.

See C: WH and C: DH. Storms are the cheapest and worst Troops available to either Codex.

Storms are "Elite" compared to Guard, but that's only because Guard set the floor for what can be fielded in the 40k universe. Also, I don't think that Storms deserve Elite slots. Storms should simply be moved to Troops, which is where they belong, as the best "Troops" the Guard can field.

Why not? They've got the good toys and S5 AP- is a darn good toy.

As already stated, S3 is useless and pointless.
____

I don't know why you even make the argument for "Elite". Currently, people only field basic Storms via Grenadiers. Or they take Allied Storms from C: WH / DH. Nobody ever fields Storms that use an Elite slot. And with Allies, Guard can field 5 units of Storms as Troops. So Storms really are Troops.

OTOH, they take Veterans as Elites.

When the Guard player puts 2 units of throwaway Grenadier Storms as his Troops, and 3 units of Veterans as Elites, you know where the Storms really stand in the army.

I still think it makes sense to think of hellguns as special weapons rather than standard issue. Within the context of the IG they have to be better than a lasgun (like all weapons), and equivalent to a bolter without being a bolter. I think as they are now storm troopers are just fancy troop choices, but something needs to be done to make them elite.

sourclams wrote:What's wrong with giving a 10 point model a S4 shotgun? Why do Stormtroopers, who are certainly elite soldiers as reflected by their superior Ballistic Skill, have to be turned into Super Ultra Kill Guys? 9 Stormtroopers with S5 AP/- hellguns would absolutely wipe the floor with a comparable number of points of any other unit.

This is an intereting statement. Lets compare with equal points of Marines shall we.

10 pt str 5 ap- stormies vs 15 point marines at double tap range to make things go faster

4 marines vs 6 stormies, marines fire first = Marines usually survive with heavy casualties
4 marines vs 6 stormies, stormies fire first = stormies survive with heavy casualties.

You would think that would be balanced... You would be wrong. The marines have better LD, and better close combat abilities they will hang around long after the stormies have run off. The stormies should be beating the marines point of point every time in a shooting match. 8 point stormies with str5 guns would not be crazy. 10 point stormies with str 6 guns would not be unheard of. Anyone have an approx cost of a firewarrior? They are a basic troop with a str 5, 30 inch gun.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Typhus is already vulnerable to Las weapons, so "Hwanghammer" isn't needed.

No he's not. For the same reason that somebody who makes $32,000 a year will never be rich.

There are very few alternatives in terms of what can be done given the numerical workspace available, given that we're talking about AP- Las weapons.

False premise. There's plenty of weapon options, looking at things like range, rate of fire, special rules, and points costs. Upping strength by almost 70% is like rewarding a star employee by doubling his/her salary.

But it's nice to know that you're a pure Spaz Marinz player, which is why you look at AP4 the same as AP-. Tau players and traitor Storms might disagree with that sentiment, though...

Here's the number of armies that will be greatly affected by Ap5: 0

Here's the reason why, in two words: Cover Saves

S5 is a ham-fisted and silly fix that is not justifiable either by rules or background.

Storm troopers aren't baseline troops - they are Elites

I apologize, sir, I didn't convey my meaning at all as I intended.

Stormtroopers are baseline, in that they are fundamentally identical to "regular" guys, except for specialist training and options. Similar to how Batman is "just" a human, even though he's a superhero billionaire.

A storm trooper is a baseline trooper when compared to genetically engineered supermen in power armor, and not blokes in flak jackets.

Guess what you're not getting access to if you're using the IG codex?

Space marines.

Getting what you're getting access to if you're using the IG codex?

Squadrons of guard with flak jackets.

Guess what's setting the ground floor for what can be fielded in the IG codex.

A platoon of guard with flak jackets.

A storm trooper, who went to school to be a soldier, is superior and therefore ELITE to the basic guardsman, and belongs in the elites section.

Otherwise, by your logic, a veteran squad should be a troops choice, as they're formerly "troops" as well.

***

If the storm troopers were a mobile force with assault weapons, as opposed to guardsmen with carapace who are hemmed in by having a terrible rapid fire weapons, I'd imagine you might see them a little more frequently.

Yeah, I'm not saying they're a troops choice. I'm using Trooper to mean 'soldier'.

At the same time, they're still Imperial Guard, and there's an associated equipment suite that most definitely doesn't include standard issue S5 greater Daemon-killing bullpups.

JohnHwangDD wrote:But I'll remind you to be polite in the future.

Careful now Sourclams, John's invoked the 'get out of argument free' clause in his posting contract. If your push becomes shove, he gets to 'instant win' you (in his mind anyway) by calling you a big meany rather than actuallying having to rebut you.

Tread carefully Clammy. Tread carefully.

BYE

A stupid idea is a stupid idea and I don't tend to have the kid gloves. Thanks for the warning, all the same.

sourclams wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Typhus is already vulnerable to Las weapons, so "Hwanghammer" isn't needed.

No he's not.

Is Typhus T7+ or AV10+? If not, then he's vulnerable to Las weapons.

If the point is that he is invulnerable because of Sv2+, then that S5 AP- Hellgun simply has more chances to wound before he rips them apart in HtH.

Or if you're talking about fire at >12", then at that point, we consider the real weapons that matter: AP2 Las/Plas and AP1 Meltas vs the Sv4+ cover saves that are everywhere.

Perhaps you can clarify exactly what you meant then?

sourclams wrote:

There are very few alternatives in terms of what can be done given the numerical workspace available, given that we're talking about AP- Las weapons.

False premise. There's plenty of weapon options, looking at things like range, rate of fire, special rules, and points costs. Upping strength by almost 70% is like rewarding a star employee by doubling his/her salary.

Not really. Storms are Imperial Troops, and the Hellgun is their basic gun. Therefore, they will be armed with 24" RF guns. So at that point, the gun is S4+ (because it's powered-up from a Lasgun). Points-wise, you won't charge more because it's still on a marginally-better Guardsman in a sea of 4-5pt Guardsmen.

sourclams wrote:

But it's nice to know that you're a pure Spaz Marinz player, which is why you look at AP4 the same as AP-. Tau players and traitor Storms might disagree with that sentiment, though...

S5 is a ham-fisted and silly fix that is not justifiable either by rules or background.

Yeah, because 2E Stormtoopers with Hotshot Lasguns S don't set any background or rules precedent for what can be done with the unit... :S

sourclams wrote:I apologize, sir, I didn't convey my meaning at all as I intended.

Stormtroopers are baseline, in that they are fundamentally identical to "regular" guys, except for specialist training and options. Similar to how Batman is "just" a human, even though he's a superhero billionaire.

Stormtroopers are generic Imperial Assassins?

No, Stormtroopers are marginally better than Guardsmen, but clearly not quite as good as Sisters of Battle.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Perhaps you can clarify exactly what you meant then?

Typhus is T5. A lasgun is S3. Typhus is not going to die to lasgun fire, for the same reason that Nidzilla tears through Bolterline MEQ with contemptuous ease.

No, Stormtroopers are marginally better than Guardsmen, but clearly not quite as good as Sisters of Battle.

That's my whole point. S5 weaponry on BS4, 10 point models puts SoB to shame.

bryantsbears wrote:Guess what's setting the ground floor for what can be fielded in the IG codex. A platoon of guard with flak jackets.

A storm trooper, who went to school to be a soldier, is superior and therefore ELITE to the basic guardsman, and belongs in the elites section.

Otherwise, by your logic, a veteran squad should be a troops choice, as they're formerly "troops" as well.

***

If the storm troopers were a mobile force with assault weapons, as opposed to guardsmen with carapace who are hemmed in by having a terrible rapid fire weapons, I'd imagine you might see them a little more frequently.

Actually, I thought the current IG Codex ground floor is a platoon of WS2 BS2 Conscripts with minimal weapon options... :S

A Stormtrooper is superior to a Guardsman, but does NOT belong in the Elites section. If, under current rules, I can field more units of Storms in 1500 pts than you can field Platoons, Storms aren't actually particularly Elite at all, even in a Guard army. Ogryns, Ratlings, and/or Techpriests will be un-nerfed and playable to some extent. Storms will still be available as Allied Troops. So, no matter what happens, Guard will not take Storms as Elites. So why fight it? Storms should be properly moved down to Troops to properly reflect their status, and make them playable.

Actually, Veterans *should* be a single-squad upgrade to a full-sized Platoon, which will do wonders in terms of limiting how they get fielded, along with opening options among other Elite slots to make them playable as well. The idea that players take 3 units of Veterans, Storms as Troops, and NO Platoons is ridiculous from any kind of Fluff / Comp perspective.

If Storms didn't cost 10+ pts base, didn't compete with kick-ass Veterans, didn't compete with interesting Ogryns or Ratlings, but instead simply could take unused Troops slots a la Grenadiers / Allied Storms, yes, they'd hit the ground more often. If they cost 9 pts base and could DS for "FREE" with a double-tapping S5 RF gun, they'd probably see quite a bit of play.

sourclams wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Perhaps you can clarify exactly what you meant then?

Typhus is T5. A lasgun is S3. Typhus is not going to die to lasgun fire, for the same reason that Nidzilla tears through Bolterline MEQ with contemptuous ease.

No, Stormtroopers are marginally better than Guardsmen, but clearly not quite as good as Sisters of Battle.

That's my whole point. S5 weaponry on BS4, 10 point models puts SoB to shame.

If the Guard player rolls hot, and the Chaos player rolls badly, Typhus will die to Lasguns. It's just not likely. Heck, look to the old lucky exploits of the Frateris Militia.

But to think that Typhus is suddenly going to be afraid of Storms because their basic gun becomes S5 is kind of strange. 5 Storms w/ 2 Plas RF: 2x Plas= 2.6 hit, 2.2 wound = 1.5 unsaved; 3x S3 hellgun= 4 hit, 0.7 wound, 0.1 net; total 1.6 wounds suffered. But I spend 80+ pts on basic 10 Storms with S5 AP- Hellguns: 20 shots, 13.3 hit, 6.7 wound, 1.1 failed. *Clearly*, the numbers confirm that massed S5 AP- Hellgun fire doing 30% less damage for 12% more points is very scary... :S

Sisters would be Faithful S4 AP5 Sv3+.
Storms would be DS S5 AP- Sv4+.

Storms are better at attacking, Sisters at holding. That's a good enough distinction so that both types could see play.

Stormtroopers are better than guardsmen because they're given better training, schooling, and equipment. Veterans are better because of what they've learned watching everyone die around them. If people honestly just want stormtroopers reduced in cost than stormtroopers might as well be a "Troop" choice.

Veterans I think should be either an individual squad, representing the last remnants of a platoon after a long bloody campaign, or a squad by squad upgrade within a platoon, representing a platoon that's seen action and had replacements brought up from reserve. In either case they should be changed up a bit, given something else rules wise.

@Aka: I think I wasn't clear above, so I edited to clarify what I meant.

If you have to buy a full Platoon of Guardsmen to upgrade 1 squad to BS4 Veterans, they're much Fluffier. Full Platoons are expensive, and unwieldy, so that works to make Veterans rare relative to regular infantry.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If the Guard player rolls hot, and the Chaos player rolls badly, Typhus will die to Lasguns.

And this 'attempt' at a logical argument, my fellow rules-writing friends, is precisely why DD should be systematically and immediately ignored in any and all proposed rules threads...

BYE

Yeah, I loved that bit of fail-lacious reasoning.

"If I roll nothing but 6's, and you roll nothing but 1's, even relatively poor units become powerful!'

Okay, I'll be over here in Realityville.

And yet, the CSM player would still have to roll only 1s to die from S5 AP- Hellgun fire...

And look, now he's repeating himself despite the fact that his 'argument' isn't one and his position is shaky at best. I keep telling everyone - he'll just keep doing this until everyone gives up. It is how Ferrous Cranus Tireless Rebutters debators operate.

BYE

You'd be putting three times as many wounds on him, and AP is still irrelevant. That's why Strength is generally a far better stat than AP.